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-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2533 --------------
001 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Luke
002 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Admin: Re: Luke
003 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Waldorf/public schools
004 - "Sarina McDonald" (pandor - Subject: Luke
005 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Subject: Luke
006 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: Admin: Re: Luke
007 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: Subject: Luke
008 - Rechomba cs.com - Re: Admin:Re:Luke
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2533.1 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Luke
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 22:18:40 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Rechomba cs.com wrote:
) In a message dated 8/31/00 3:39:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
) luckylukedefrance yahoo.com writes:
)
) ) ) BS is BS. First it was foul smelling and now it's sweet.
) ) ) Ray
) )
) ) I am afraid this is too cryptic for me: can you more
) directly
) ) express yourself?
) )
) ) Luke
)
) You called BS on Peter's remark towards Paulina about her not
) being informed
) because she mispelled the author's names. And you were
) absolutely correct
) in doing so (BS smelled foul).
no one and nothing is absolutely correct
) Now that you find Paulina
) personally offensive, you apologize to Peter for your remark
It is not only the way she treated me but also her vicious
diatribe against Deborah Kelly that I was responding to. Not to
mention her patently elitist habit (and a common
anthroposophical trait) of cozying up to authority figures
(i.e., Dan). I was tired of her private conversations aimed at
Dan taking up list space and time, while she plainly expected
everyone else to mutely listen and be awed and dazzled. Not to
mention her stereotypical choleric posturings. Etc. Over time
everything about her began to reek of everything I had come to
dislike and despair of in anthroposophists. In this context, I
began to see Peter's zinging her that way as giving her a dose
of her own medicine rather than the pettiness I had originally
attributed to it. Peter does not seem to be a petty person.
In other words, context does matter: as time went on I began to
see more of the context in which Peter had made his remark, and
that changed the way I interpretted it.
Further consideration leads me to think that perhaps Paulina is
a Waldorf victim, or a victim of anthroposophy, depending on
whether she was raised in anthroposophy or became enmeshed in
the anthropop culture as a result of training in Waldorf at an
early age. It is safe to say that her behaviors and misbehaviors
are commonly found in anthroposopy and are clearly molded by
anthroposophical beliefs and encouraged by the anthroposophical
culture. That is not to excuse her: she chooses to act in this
malicious and destructive way. But it illustrates one of the
more tragic consequences of participation in anthroposophy: the
distortion and crippling of personality.
)and you're eating the
) BS yourself
I don't see it that way.
) (must smell sweet).
) When you call someone on BS, you recognise their statement
) for what it is
) regardless of your disposition to the person it is directed
) towards or to
) the person responsible for the statement.
Exactly: which is why I had the diatribe against Deborah Kelly
in mind, even though I have my issues with her.
I for one would
) expect you and
) others on this list to call BS on any lame criticisms I may
) put forth.
It's a deal!
) As for ad hominem, you never really addressed Paulina's
) criticisms of your
) remarks.
Because I considered it to be a waste of time; I have only so
much time I can devote to this list and I have to be selective
about what I respond to. I do not respond to baiting and set
ups, destructive conversations and the like.
Sometimes I do not respond because it would take too much time
to do so properly, or someone else has done so adequately, etc.
Also, I may later respond to parts of the post when I have more
time, have gathered my thoughts, etc.
It is my decision and my choice when, how and whether I respond.
)Instead you blew it on diatribe.
I don't think so. As I said, I think her own words condemn her.
Judgeing by the
) majority of your
) posts, I was expecting an informed and well argued rebuttal.
Thank you. I am a multidimensional person, though, and will not
always behave according to type.
)
) Constructively yours,
) Ray
Thanks for the elaboration.
Luke
P.S.
BTW, why was my response to Peter "calling him on his BS"
whereas my response to Paulina was a diatribe?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2533.2 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: Re: Luke
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 00:01:59 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009010520.WAA23111 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009010520.WAA23111 lists1.best.com)
Luke and Ray, I think that's enough squabbling. It really isn't going
to be helpful to someone who reads the archives a year from now.
Let's get back on topic.
Thanks, Dan Dugan
Moderator.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2533.3 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/public schools
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 23:55:27 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200008301933.MAA06502 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200008301933.MAA06502 lists1.best.com)
Deborah, you pointed us to the Lakota declaration of war against
new-age apprpriation of Native spirituality,
)http://nativenet.uthscsa.edu/archive/nl/9308/0227.html.
) There is also a lot of information re: New Agers at
)http://www.dickshovel.com
Thanks.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2533.4 ---------------
From: "Sarina McDonald" (pandora aa.net)
Subject: Subject: Luke
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 08:55:27 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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charset="Windows-1252"
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References: (200009010510.WAA18728 lists1.best.com)
Ray wrote:
)As for ad hominem, you never really addressed Paulina's criticisms of your
)remarks. Instead you blew it on diatribe. Judging by the majority of your
)posts, I was expecting an informed and well argued rebuttal.
As was I.
I have been reading these recent digests with a growing sense of disbelief,
since Luke, a relative newcomer, seems to be making some pretty huge
assumptions about Paulina's character based on very little personal
knowledge. I may not share her enthusiasm for Anthroposophy, but her posts
and our off-list e-mails have never led me to believe that she was anything
less than a highly competent teacher.
I'm no fan of behaviorism as an end-all be-all, but it does have it's place
in the teacher's "tool-kit:" it is just one of many tools, none of which
should be used exclusively or in all situations. To take Paulina's comments
and twist her image into that of a megalomaniac, power-mad teacher is quite
a stretch. It makes me think she and Luke are having one of those
conversations that Diana and I used to have, where we are reacting more to
our own issues than to what the other has said.
One other comment: those of us who have been on the list awhile know that
Paulina's MS sometimes makes re-typing difficult; when she makes a spelling
mistake it has always been assumed that she is typing the best that she can.
I didn't want to speak up for her before, figuring if she wanted to inform
Luke that he was out of line she would have done so. But I feel that it's
pretty warranted to say something now. Spelling is an old issue, Luke:
please drop it.
Respectfully,
Sarina
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2533.5 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Subject: Luke
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 09:32:27 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Sarina McDonald (pandora aa.net) wrote:
Spelling is an old
) issue, Luke:
) please drop it.
)
) Respectfully,
) Sarina
)
I never raised it. Read more carefully. My issues were with
abusive behavior, and MS is no excuse.
Dan has asked us to drop this issue: you claim to be
"respectful" but your actions indicate otherwise.
I only respond to defend myself. If any other "breakthroughs"
occur despite Dan's admonition, I will not respond but it will
not be because I tacitly agree or have no defense.
Luke
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2533.6 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Admin: Re: Luke
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 21:22:59 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009010520.WAA23111 lists1.best.com)
(200009010815.BAA09880 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009010815.BAA09880 lists1.best.com)
)(x-flowed)Luke and Ray, I think that's enough squabbling. It really
)isn't going
)to be helpful to someone who reads the archives a year from now.
)Let's get back on topic.
)
)Thanks, Dan Dugan
)Moderator.
)(/x-flowed)
There you go again, Dan.
Isn't the studious psychological profiling of people whose brains,
thinking, affect, emotions, personality, politics, and lives are
affected by SWA woo-woo your cup of tea, Dan?
And isn't defending one's position against attack, as Luke does,
reasonable? Including defending against ad hominems?
Spend too much time hugging Eugene Schwartz and Bob Tolz out East at
Sunbridge Waldorf Teachers College, did you Dan? Nice people and warm
human beings, no doubt.
But they're fucked in the head by SWA and irrationality. Something
must've rubbed off on you, Dan, with all that hugging and bonhomie.
I'd say leave Luke and Ray to duke out that issue -- even heatedly.
You want to play ringmaster to your circus again, take on someone
closer to your size, weight, age, and pedantry for their continuing
ad hominems.
(That's me I'm talking about, folks, in case any of the newcomers
didn't recognise me from my reputation around here or reading the
interminable ad hominem warnings from the ringmaster to me in the
archives.)
I think people will be able to find the sweet wood of
deconstruction's Louisville Sluggers despite the dead leaves of ad
hominem on the ground in the archives a year from now, Dan.
Deconstructing and exposing the evils and nonsense of SWA is NOT a
constructive activity, Dan. It's not supposed to be.
So if you want to yield to Ray and all the other SWA apologists and
make your list one which only entertains "constructive criticism",
then you better start unsubscribing people. The ones that are still
here, that is, after being rubbished so thoroughly by the SWA
political correctness police you allow free rein here, Dan.
Deconstruction's and exposure's purpose is not to make SWA better or
more honest or more open, nor to play PC games.
It's to make sure SWA can't get any worse or more successful
according to its irrationalist, fascist designs on the children,
economies and politics of the world, boring from within, from the
most vulnerable, the young, and the small communities.
Remind me, Dan, which side are you on again?
Or would you like me to quote all the nice things you've said about SWA?
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2533.7 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Subject: Luke
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 08:50:18 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009010510.WAA18728 lists1.best.com)
(200009011552.IAA16350 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009011552.IAA16350 lists1.best.com)
)Luke:
)please drop it.
)
)Respectfully,
)Sarina
Sarina:
Please stop trying to impose Steiner/Waldorf/Anthroposophical (SWA)
apologists' political correctness on the discussion.
Luke's criticisms of Paulina's spelling, excused by her MS, are not
the issue here. The issue is that people use such minor gaffes and
faux pas as Luke's (about the spelling) to attack their wider
criticisms about the effects of SWA on people who come into contact
with it, as demonstrated by their behaviour, words, and beliefs
expounded on this list.
Luke is doing a credible and arguable deconstruction of Paulina's
experience. That's fair, because she is an SWA apologist, while
seeming to be critical of some aspects. I have remarked before on the
similarity between this behaviour and mentality of hers (and others
on the list) and the behaviour and mentality of cult-survivors who
defend organisations they have left.
Kinda like me having a soft spot for the U.S. Army and boot camp, and
defending the honourable profession of arms, even if, intellectually
and morally, I am totally opposed to militarism, military authority
and totalitarian abuse of power.
It's interesting that I, as a parent survivor of SWA, do not have any
such warm feelings or soft spot for anything SWA.
My almost 10 years now of having children in a Steiner school and of
fighting to get them out, preserve their lives and minds, and study
that has convinced me SWA is a wrong, bad, coordinated and planned
fascist attack on the rationality of the future and its economic,
social and political shape.
The character, personality, and beliefs of both sides in this issue
are fair game for discussion here, along with the ideas, despite
attempts to squelch the vitality of criticism by political
correctness police like you, Sarina, and even the moderator.
Please argue those issues, Sarina; don't tell Luke -- or anyone else
-- to stop.
Respectfully,
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2533.8 ---------------
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: Admin:Re:Luke
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 00:51:48 EDT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 9/1/00 4:39:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mkopp xtra.co.nz
writes:
) So if you want to yield to Ray and all the other SWA apologists and
) make your list one which only entertains "constructive criticism"...
I see I have joined the ranks of SWA apologists. I am deeply hurt Michael.
Perhaps I should seek the counsel of an anthro shrink to realize where and
when I strayed from The Path. Get some past life regression therapy so that I
can take the Luciferian scales from my eyes and see my skepticism and
philosophical abhorrence to anthroposophy for what it really is: denial.
(One day later, after counseling)
(Upon much introspection and palm sweating) OK, I CONFESS: I WANT TO EXUME
STEINER'S REMAINS, PLACE HIM IN A SHRINE IN THE CENTER OF MY SECRET
BIODYNAMIC GARDEN (to attract cosmic forces and keep the gophers away), SELL
THE PRODUCE AT A PREMIUM AND DONATE IT ALL TO AWSNA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whew, what a release! I didn't know coming out of the anthro closet would be
so...so karmically satisfying.
Thanks for the push.
Anthroposophically Yours,
Ray
PS: To all SWA people out there, I apologize for the error of my evil,
critical ways. I SEE THE LIGHT!!!
,
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2533 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2534 --------------
001 - "Nora Brinker" (nora.brin - Michael Kopp - re online debating
002 - "Nora Brinker" (nora.brin - Re: Michael Kopp - re online debating - CORRECTION
003 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
004 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - OTO and Rudolf Steiner
005 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Michael Kopp - re online debating - CORRECTION
006 - "Nora Brinker" (nora.brin - Re: Michael Kopp - re online debating - CORRECTION
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2534.1 ---------------
From: "Nora Brinker" (nora.brinker wtal.de)
Subject: Michael Kopp - re online debating
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 12:50:42 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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References: (200009010510.WAA18728 lists1.best.com)(200009011552.IAA16350 lists1.best.com) (200009012053.NAA01998 lists1.best.com)
I am new to this group and so far only lurking, as I was expecting more
people - like me - with their own Waldorf school experience (as opposed to
being parents of Waldorf children). I am, however, not a newcomer to online
discussion groups. Speaking out the following observations will get me into
trouble but here they are nevertheless.
1. It is right that people use minor gaffes and faux pas to discredit the
opinions and ideas of a fellow participant. The oldest trick from the
demagogue's book.
2. One will always win in a discussion group if one claims victim status of
any sort if the discussion group is dominated by Americans. Misspellings of
proprietary names IS sloppy and an indication that the writer is not very
well informed, may he suffer from a handicap or not (whereas bad typing
isn't necessarily).
3. The character, personality, and beliefs of both sides in any issue ARE
fair game for discussion, along with the ideas and opinions. Both are
inseparable.
3a. Another sideswipe aimed at Americans here: I have found that a lot of
them find the blunt utterance of an idea or opinion without endless
relativations, niceties, pc-isms and euphemisms objectionable and thusly
don't listen to the gist of the message once they've found it not polite.
That is counter-productive to any real discussion.
3b. I have found in most discussion groups that it seems to be difficult to
abstract from personal experience. For example meet an avid pro-choicer and
she will most probably have had a child by AI or another fertility problem.
Disclaimer: Most Americans I have met in real life are as worldly, have an
equally broad horizon and are often more cosmopolitan than any European I
have met. I guess that the observations outlined above apply mainly to cyber
communication, although why that should be so, I can only guess. But as this
form of communication becomes more and more important, I thought I better
make a point of it.
I find it most objectionable that grown-up people who have done nothing but
uttering a rather blunt statement are reproached by their fellow posters or
the monitor. As to the latter, I think monitoring is generally necessary but
for the same reasons it should be restricted to booting somebody who is
obviously abusive. I don't think grown-up people need a cyber-nanny.
Besides, todays pc-isms are tomorrows outrage and vice versa, so why bother?
(Apart from that, my very personal problem with that sort of communication
is, that I, although I am fairly literate in English, very often simply
don't understand what a self-consciously pc sort of person is trying to
say.) To cut it short, if one doesn't like a person's posts, one doesn't
need to open them. Isn't cyber great!?!
To contribute just a little bit to the original Waldorf topic, I am amazed
at the mixing of New-Ageism and Anthroposophy in the states. Things like,
for example, yoga, meditation, or - heavens forbid - tarot reading,
shamanism etc. would be anathema to Anthroposophists in Germany. All this
has nothing to do with Steiner's philosophy and therefore doesn't exist. At
least that was the case at my time and as far as I know things haven't
changed that much. The rule of thumb "the farther one gets away from
Stuttgart, the more rigid the teaching is" doesn't seem to apply. Btw. I
personally find both variants equally unpalatable.
NB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Kopp" (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
To: (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: Subject: Luke
) )Luke:
) )please drop it.
) )
) )Respectfully,
) )Sarina
)
)
) Sarina:
)
) Please stop trying to impose Steiner/Waldorf/Anthroposophical (SWA)
) apologists' political correctness on the discussion.
)
) Luke's criticisms of Paulina's spelling, excused by her MS, are not
) the issue here. The issue is that people use such minor gaffes and
) faux pas as Luke's (about the spelling) to attack their wider
) criticisms about the effects of SWA on people who come into contact
) with it, as demonstrated by their behaviour, words, and beliefs
) expounded on this list.
)
) Luke is doing a credible and arguable deconstruction of Paulina's
) experience. That's fair, because she is an SWA apologist, while
) seeming to be critical of some aspects. I have remarked before on the
) similarity between this behaviour and mentality of hers (and others
) on the list) and the behaviour and mentality of cult-survivors who
) defend organisations they have left.
)
) Kinda like me having a soft spot for the U.S. Army and boot camp, and
) defending the honourable profession of arms, even if, intellectually
) and morally, I am totally opposed to militarism, military authority
) and totalitarian abuse of power.
)
) It's interesting that I, as a parent survivor of SWA, do not have any
) such warm feelings or soft spot for anything SWA.
)
) My almost 10 years now of having children in a Steiner school and of
) fighting to get them out, preserve their lives and minds, and study
) that has convinced me SWA is a wrong, bad, coordinated and planned
) fascist attack on the rationality of the future and its economic,
) social and political shape.
)
) The character, personality, and beliefs of both sides in this issue
) are fair game for discussion here, along with the ideas, despite
) attempts to squelch the vitality of criticism by political
) correctness police like you, Sarina, and even the moderator.
)
) Please argue those issues, Sarina; don't tell Luke -- or anyone else
) -- to stop.
)
)
) Respectfully,
)
) Cheers from Godzone,
)
) Michael Kopp
) Wellington, New Zealand
)
)
)
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2534.2 ---------------
From: "Nora Brinker" (nora.brinker wtal.de)
Subject: Re: Michael Kopp - re online debating - CORRECTION
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 12:56:55 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
) For example meet an avid pro-choicer and
) she will most probably have had a child by AI or another fertility
problem.
)
That should read "pro-lifer", of course! Sorry!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nora Brinker" (nora.brinker wtal.de)
To: (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 12:50 PM
Subject: Michael Kopp - re online debating
) I am new to this group and so far only lurking, as I was expecting more
) people - like me - with their own Waldorf school experience (as opposed to
) being parents of Waldorf children). I am, however, not a newcomer to
online
) discussion groups. Speaking out the following observations will get me
into
) trouble but here they are nevertheless.
)
) 1. It is right that people use minor gaffes and faux pas to discredit the
) opinions and ideas of a fellow participant. The oldest trick from the
) demagogue's book.
)
) 2. One will always win in a discussion group if one claims victim status
of
) any sort if the discussion group is dominated by Americans. Misspellings
of
) proprietary names IS sloppy and an indication that the writer is not very
) well informed, may he suffer from a handicap or not (whereas bad typing
) isn't necessarily).
)
) 3. The character, personality, and beliefs of both sides in any issue ARE
) fair game for discussion, along with the ideas and opinions. Both are
) inseparable.
)
) 3a. Another sideswipe aimed at Americans here: I have found that a lot of
) them find the blunt utterance of an idea or opinion without endless
) relativations, niceties, pc-isms and euphemisms objectionable and thusly
) don't listen to the gist of the message once they've found it not polite.
) That is counter-productive to any real discussion.
)
) 3b. I have found in most discussion groups that it seems to be difficult
to
) abstract from personal experience. For example meet an avid pro-choicer
and
) she will most probably have had a child by AI or another fertility
problem.
)
) Disclaimer: Most Americans I have met in real life are as worldly, have an
) equally broad horizon and are often more cosmopolitan than any European I
) have met. I guess that the observations outlined above apply mainly to
cyber
) communication, although why that should be so, I can only guess. But as
this
) form of communication becomes more and more important, I thought I better
) make a point of it.
)
) I find it most objectionable that grown-up people who have done nothing
but
) uttering a rather blunt statement are reproached by their fellow posters
or
) the monitor. As to the latter, I think monitoring is generally necessary
but
) for the same reasons it should be restricted to booting somebody who is
) obviously abusive. I don't think grown-up people need a cyber-nanny.
) Besides, todays pc-isms are tomorrows outrage and vice versa, so why
bother?
) (Apart from that, my very personal problem with that sort of communication
) is, that I, although I am fairly literate in English, very often simply
) don't understand what a self-consciously pc sort of person is trying to
) say.) To cut it short, if one doesn't like a person's posts, one doesn't
) need to open them. Isn't cyber great!?!
)
) To contribute just a little bit to the original Waldorf topic, I am amazed
) at the mixing of New-Ageism and Anthroposophy in the states. Things like,
) for example, yoga, meditation, or - heavens forbid - tarot reading,
) shamanism etc. would be anathema to Anthroposophists in Germany. All this
) has nothing to do with Steiner's philosophy and therefore doesn't exist.
At
) least that was the case at my time and as far as I know things haven't
) changed that much. The rule of thumb "the farther one gets away from
) Stuttgart, the more rigid the teaching is" doesn't seem to apply. Btw. I
) personally find both variants equally unpalatable.
)
) NB
)
) ----- Original Message -----
) From: "Michael Kopp" (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
) To: (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
) Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 10:50 PM
) Subject: Re: Subject: Luke
)
)
) ) )Luke:
) ) )please drop it.
) ) )
) ) )Respectfully,
) ) )Sarina
) )
) )
) ) Sarina:
) )
) ) Please stop trying to impose Steiner/Waldorf/Anthroposophical (SWA)
) ) apologists' political correctness on the discussion.
) )
) ) Luke's criticisms of Paulina's spelling, excused by her MS, are not
) ) the issue here. The issue is that people use such minor gaffes and
) ) faux pas as Luke's (about the spelling) to attack their wider
) ) criticisms about the effects of SWA on people who come into contact
) ) with it, as demonstrated by their behaviour, words, and beliefs
) ) expounded on this list.
) )
) ) Luke is doing a credible and arguable deconstruction of Paulina's
) ) experience. That's fair, because she is an SWA apologist, while
) ) seeming to be critical of some aspects. I have remarked before on the
) ) similarity between this behaviour and mentality of hers (and others
) ) on the list) and the behaviour and mentality of cult-survivors who
) ) defend organisations they have left.
) )
) ) Kinda like me having a soft spot for the U.S. Army and boot camp, and
) ) defending the honourable profession of arms, even if, intellectually
) ) and morally, I am totally opposed to militarism, military authority
) ) and totalitarian abuse of power.
) )
) ) It's interesting that I, as a parent survivor of SWA, do not have any
) ) such warm feelings or soft spot for anything SWA.
) )
) ) My almost 10 years now of having children in a Steiner school and of
) ) fighting to get them out, preserve their lives and minds, and study
) ) that has convinced me SWA is a wrong, bad, coordinated and planned
) ) fascist attack on the rationality of the future and its economic,
) ) social and political shape.
) )
) ) The character, personality, and beliefs of both sides in this issue
) ) are fair game for discussion here, along with the ideas, despite
) ) attempts to squelch the vitality of criticism by political
) ) correctness police like you, Sarina, and even the moderator.
) )
) ) Please argue those issues, Sarina; don't tell Luke -- or anyone else
) ) -- to stop.
) )
) )
) ) Respectfully,
) )
) ) Cheers from Godzone,
) )
) ) Michael Kopp
) ) Wellington, New Zealand
) )
) )
) )
) )
) )
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2534.3 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 09:43:34 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Thanks to Dan, the following has already been posted but since
the forwarding process has introduced a lot of symbols that make
the text difficult to read, I am re-posting it as follows:
From:
http://www.imssdarm.org/Publications/World%20News/1999-3/prophecy8.htm
I cut and paste the following:
ìIn its formulation and content, the program of the NSDAP
(National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei) (National
Socialist German Workersí Party) was greatly influenced by
Dietrich Eckart, a Thule Society member.î ñMadame Blavatsky,
pp.
284, 286. Members in this society, among others, were Adolf
Hitler, Rudolf Hess, Heinrich Himmler, and Hermann G–ring. The
publishing arm of the Thule Society became the NSDAP partyís
publishing house.
ìDietrich Eckart, one of the leading members of the occult
Thule
Society, introduced Hitler to Madame Blavatskyís teachings. In
December 1923, Eckart said on his deathbed: ëFollow Hitler! He
will dance, but I will decide on the melody. I introduced him
to
The Secret Doctrine, opened his visionary centers, and thus
gave
him the ability to make connection with the forces.Öí î ñDie
sanfte Verf¸hrung, p. 140.
I recall being given a copy of Dietrich Eckart's book on
Parzival to read by a senior anthroposophist of the WWII
generation (I believe the book was called "Parzival in 12
Pictures" or something like that). ). This book was commonly
distributed and read in anthroposophical circles.
I had no idea who Dietrich Eckart was or that he was a member
of
the Thule Society (for that matter I did not then know what
the
Thule Society was nor its significanceProbably most of the
people who thus received it had not idea either, although I am
sure the person who gave it to me *did* know.
I sent this out yesterday but it has not reached the list as
of
today (I sent it out then as "Links between Anthroposophy and
Nazism). And a second attempt today sent the browser crashing.
Luke
P.S.
The same website has the following on Rudolf Steiner:
Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925). ìFrom 1902-1913, Rudolf Steiner
was
a member and general secretary of the German branch of the
Theosophical Society. From 1902-1908, he published the
theosophical magazine Luzifer-Gnosis (Lucifer Gnosis) and
organized the theosophical congress in Munich in 1907.î
ñMadame
Blavatsky, p. 84.
In his autobiography he wrote: ìDuring the time when I was
forming concrete views of the repeated lives on earth, I
became
acquainted with the Theosophical Movement founded by H.P.
Blavatsky.Ö
ìThese conversations were particularly intimate with Bertram
Keightley himself. H.P. Blavatsky livened up in these
conversations. My dear host, who had experienced so much
through
her, told me about her whole personality with its rich
spirituality.Ö
ìOnly in English theosophy did I find inner stability, which
originated from Blavatsky and Ö was appropriately nurtured.î
ñR.
Steiner, Mein Lebensgang (My Autobiography), pp. 103, 296,
297,
309.
ìThe luciferian gnosis of the Blavatsky theosophy and the
Steiner anthroposophy are the same in this point: They give
Lucifer an indispensable position in the redemption of man.Ö
The
luciferian gnosis is united in one thing: Lucifer/Satan is in
an
evolutionary, positive, spiritual truth. It doesnít matter
whether he is considered a person or a symbol for
materializing
forces or powers.î ñHaack, Satan-Teufel-Luzifer
(Satan-Devil-Lucifer), pp. 44, 45.
ìRudolf Steiner was an original thinker and researcher into
spirits. He didnít permit himself to be bound by the rigid
corset of the Theosophical Society but received in these
circles
very essential stimulus for his spiritual course of life,
which
for well-known reasons he wanted later to keep private.
Despite
their differences Ö he venerated Blavatskyís life work to the
end. Through his Anthroposophical Society and the Waldorf
Schools his concepts are offered to a wide public right in
Germany and Switzerland also in our day.î ñMadame Blavatsky,
p.
88.
Every independent-thinking Christian may have his own thoughts
concerning anthroposophy, or human wisdom, as the Duden German
dictionary describes it. If believers keep a great distance
from these ideas, it is understandable.
( Cut and Pasted by Luke Miller From:
http://www.imssdarm.org/Publications/World%20News/1999-/prophecy8.htm
)
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2534.4 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 10:03:40 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
From:
http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl listserv.aol.com/msg29055.html
Luke Miller cuts and pastes the following:
(The same material is also located at
http://www.b-org.demon.nl/scn/roots/satanic-elements-1.html
which appears to be an online book of which this is a part
entitled: "The Roots of Scientology: The Satanic Elements (Part
1 of 2) by 4 ex-Scientologists".)
-----------------------------------
. OTO:
In the beginning of the 20th century, a manufacturer from
Vienna Dr. Karl
Kellner, and a German theosophist Dr. Franz Hertmann, founded a
secret occult
lodge which they named "Ordo Templi Orientis" (O.T.O.). Soon
after they were
joined by Theodore Reuss (1855-1923) who had connections with
many lodges. It
was he who led Rudolf Steiner, the founder of anthroposophy,
into such a group.
Reuss, whose lodge-name was "Brother Merlin", contacted
Aleister Crowley
in 1912, and he became a member of this additional lodge
receiving the name
"Brother Baphomet". Baphomet, the symbol of the satanic goat,
usually portrayed
as a half-human, half-goat figure, of a goat head. It is often
misinterpreted
as a symbol of witchcraft in general. (It is used by Satanists,
who worship the
devil, but is not used by neo-Pagan witches, who do not worship
the Devil.)
The origin of the name Baphomet is unclear. It may be a
corruption of
Mahomet (Mohammed). The English witchcraft historian Montague
Summers suggested
it was a combination of two Greek words, baphe and metis,
meaning "absorption
of knowledge." Baphomet has also been called the Goat of Mendes,
the Black Goat
and the Judas Goat.)
The O.T.O. developed its sexual rites quickly under Reuss
and later
broadened them under Crowley. Not long after, Crowley took over
the leadership
of the lodge. Like other secret lodges, members may not disclose
theirknowledge.
----------------------------------
http://www.b-org.demon.nl/scn/roots/satanic-elements-1.html
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2534.5 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Michael Kopp - re online debating - CORRECTION
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 10:45:31 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (200009021056.DAA22262 lists1.best.com)
)) For example meet an avid pro-choicer and
)) she will most probably have had a child by AI or another fertility
)problem.
))
)That should read "pro-lifer", of course! Sorry!
)
Interesting you should say that. Raising a child as a teen mom, I
experienced complications of that birth which left me infertile. I went on
to adopt a couple of kids.
When I see bumper stickers that promote pro-life, I always ask them how
many children they have adopted, whenever I get the chance. Generally the
answer is "None."
Being pro-choice, I want these people to put their money where their mouths
are.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2534.6 ---------------
From: "Nora Brinker" (nora.brinker wtal.de)
Subject: Re: Michael Kopp - re online debating - CORRECTION
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:59:11 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (200009021740.KAA29476 lists1.best.com)
I agree with what you say, or rather I understand it. I didn't intend,
however, to start a pro-life vs. pro-choice discussion. It was just an
example for a - sort of - lack in independent thinking I believe to exist.
It was the first example that came to my mind, not more.
NB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Debra Snell" (snell netshel.net)
To: (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: Michael Kopp - re online debating - CORRECTION
) )) For example meet an avid pro-choicer and
) )) she will most probably have had a child by AI or another fertility
) )problem.
) ))
) )That should read "pro-lifer", of course! Sorry!
) )
)
) Interesting you should say that. Raising a child as a teen mom, I
) experienced complications of that birth which left me infertile. I went on
) to adopt a couple of kids.
)
) When I see bumper stickers that promote pro-life, I always ask them how
) many children they have adopted, whenever I get the chance. Generally the
) answer is "None."
)
) Being pro-choice, I want these people to put their money where their
mouths
) are.
)
)
)
)
)
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2534 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2535 --------------
001 - "truth matters" (truthmat - Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
002 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
003 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
004 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
005 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: stereotypes
006 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2g - Re: stereotypes
007 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: stereotypes
008 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Colorado school board slams charter for bad science
009 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - awakening the will in homeless adults
010 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Waldorf consistent with African-American cultural patterns
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.1 ---------------
From: "truth matters" (truthmatters unbounded.com)
Subject: Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:40:56 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Luke Miller wrote:
) (The same material is also located at
) http://www.b-org.demon.nl/scn/roots/satanic-elements-1.html
) which appears to be an online book of which this is a part
) entitled: "The Roots of Scientology: The Satanic Elements (Part
) 1 of 2) by 4 ex-Scientologists".)
) -----------------------------------
) OTO:
) In the beginning of the 20th century, a manufacturer from
) Vienna Dr. Karl Kellner, and a German theosophist Dr. Franz
) Hertmann, founded a secret occult lodge which they named
) "Ordo Templi Orientis" (O.T.O.). Soon after they were
) joined by Theodore Reuss (1855-1923) who had connections with
) many lodges. It was he who led Rudolf Steiner, the founder
) of anthroposophy, into such a group.
) Reuss, whose lodge-name was "Brother Merlin", contacted
) Aleister Crowley in 1912, and he became a member of this
) additional lodge receiving the name "Brother Baphomet".
) Baphomet, the symbol of the satanic goat, usually portrayed
) as a half-human, half-goat figure, of a goat head. It is
) often misinterpreted as a symbol of witchcraft in general.
) (It is used by Satanists, who worship the devil, but is
) not used by neo-Pagan witches, who do not worship the Devil.)
http://www.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/steiner.htm :
'After decades of incomplete media reports and propaganda
efforts by partial parties regarding Rudolf Steiner's alleged
membership in Theodor Reuss' German lodge of the Ordo Templi
Orientis, for the first time, the archive of Rudolf Steiner's
probate opened its vault (for the book "Der Grosse Theodor Reuss Reader"), thereby giving historians the ammunition needed to
finally put the matter to rest (extant are 4 letters of Reuss
to Steiner and 21 of Reuss to Marie von Sivers. Steiner's
letters to Reuss are missing or never existed; 4 drafts of Sivers to Reuss survive. Reproduced in "Der Grosse Theodor Reuss Reader" is
the Contract, the Edict of Reuss to Steiner, and two letters
concerning Franz Hartmann.)
There is no evidence that Rudolf Steiner ever accepted anything from Theodor Reuss with the sole exception of Reuss's permission to
use the term "Misraim". There exists no evidence nor any documentation which made Steiner a member of the Ordo Templi Orientis.'
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.2 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 09:23:52 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (200009031534.IAA13157 lists1.best.com)
Truth matters wrote:
)http://www.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/steiner.htm :
)
)'After decades of incomplete media reports and propaganda
)efforts by partial parties regarding Rudolf Steiner's alleged
)membership in Theodor Reuss' German lodge of the Ordo Templi
)Orientis, for the first time, the archive of Rudolf Steiner's
)probate opened its vault (for the book "Der Grosse Theodor Reuss Reader"),
)thereby giving historians the ammunition needed to
)finally put the matter to rest
[Debra]
Interesting. Just who were the "historians" that were allowed to go in the
vault? Are you talking mainstream historians or Anthroposophical
historians? I'd guess they'd have to be mainstream historians, if they
really want to put this issue to rest. Will the Anthro Society (or whoever
has control) allow this book, "Der Grosse Theodor Reuss Reader" to be
republished? Seems to me that if opening the book could clear Steiner,
they'd be beating a path to the publisher.
[TM]
(extant are 4 letters of Reuss
)to Steiner and 21 of Reuss to Marie von Sivers.
Steiner's
)letters to Reuss are missing or never existed; 4 drafts of Sivers to Reuss
)survive. Reproduced in "Der Grosse Theodor Reuss Reader" is
)the Contract, the Edict of Reuss to Steiner, and two letters
)concerning Franz Hartmann.)
[Debra]
So were they just read by a selected few and locked back up, or are they
available for everyone to read? Sheesh, the Anthro Society must be between
a rock and a hard place. It must be hard to keep a belief system esoteric
with so many people peeling off the layers from every direction. Hope that
vault is protected by trustworthy security guards. Surely Prince Charles
can help.
How often is this vault opened?
[TM]
)There is no evidence that Rudolf Steiner ever accepted anything from
)Theodor Reuss with the sole exception of Reuss's permission to
)use the term "Misraim". There exists no evidence nor any documentation
)which made Steiner a member of the Ordo Templi Orientis.'
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.3 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 16:28:27 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Debra Snell (snell netshel.net) wrote:
) Truth matters wrote:
)
) )http://www.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/steiner.htm :
) )
You know, Peter Koenig is the name of one of the sons of
Christof Koenig, son of Karl Koenig, founder of the
anthroposophical world movement known as Camphill. I think he
lives, or for a time lived, in Australia and was a biodynamic
farmer.
Ever since I first saw this article, I wondered if this were not
the same Peter Koenig, particularly since it is such a whitewash
of Rudolf Steiner.
Does anyone know if this is the case?
Luke
P.S.
The story I heard of Steiner destroying the evidence of his
membership in OTO (his membership card, if I recall correctly)
while exclaiming something like "you can never prove I was ever
a member" sounds so like the kind of thing those who seem to
consider themselves to be "warriors for anthroposophy" do all
the time, doesn't it?
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.4 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 16:41:17 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com) wrote:
(snip)
) I recall being given a copy of Dietrich Eckart's book on
) Parzival to read by a senior anthroposophist of the WWII
) generation (I believe the book was called "Parzival in 12
) Pictures" or something like that). ). This book was commonly
) distributed and read in anthroposophical circles.
)
) I had no idea who Dietrich Eckart was or that he was a member
) of
) the Thule Society (for that matter I did not then know what
) the
) Thule Society was nor its significanceProbably most of the
) people who thus received it had not idea either, although I
) am
) sure the person who gave it to me *did* know.
(snip)
I meant to include the information that one of the reasons I
believe the individual who gave me the book to read "*did* know"
is because upon handing it to me, this person said that this
particular version of the legend of Parzival was very special
but they could not explain why this was so.
Luke
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.5 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: stereotypes
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 16:56:04 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Lisa Ercolano (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
(snip)
) Lisa: Luke, could you give us some examples of this?
(snip)
I am not ignoring your query, I intend to respond but I want to
give the response the time and thought it deserves.
I am glad you began an thread on stereotypes: anthroposophy and
waldorf is greatly concerned with ordering and controlling, and
few things are as effective a means of social and thought
control as stereotypes (a/k/a "archetypes").
Luke
__________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.6 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: stereotypes
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 20:39:03 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thanks, Luke: I realize you (like most of us here!) have a life besides the
list and that it takes time to respond to questions, queries and various
topics that might interest us!
I am very much interested in the stereotyping that goes on in Waldorf
schools vis a vis categorizing a child by "temperment," etc. My older girl
was labelled "melancholic" from the first week of preschool ... and that
view of her followed her everywhere she went, in whatever she did. I found
that when asked about this, teachers would take umbrage and go on and on
about how "the temperments are a great way of understanding the children,
etc."
As far as I could see, the "temperments" were just another way of stripping
the children of their individuality until such time as Steiner said that
they were ready to develop their individual egos or "I"s.
The most intriguing aspect of this is the way Waldorf schools advertise
themselves -- as places were each child is nurtured and respected for who he
or she is. Ha!
Please, Luke, tell us more -- whenever you have the time.
Lisa
)From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)Subject: Re: stereotypes
)Date: Sun, Sep 3, 2000, 7:56 PM
)
)
) --- Lisa Ercolano (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
) (snip)
)) Lisa: Luke, could you give us some examples of this?
) (snip)
)
) I am not ignoring your query, I intend to respond but I want to
) give the response the time and thought it deserves.
)
) I am glad you began an thread on stereotypes: anthroposophy and
) waldorf is greatly concerned with ordering and controlling, and
) few things are as effective a means of social and thought
) control as stereotypes (a/k/a "archetypes").
)
) Luke
)
) __________________________________________________
) Do You Yahoo!?
) Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
) http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.7 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: stereotypes
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 18:35:41 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (200009040040.RAA08741 lists1.best.com)
[Lisa]
)I am very much interested in the stereotyping that goes on in Waldorf
)schools vis a vis categorizing a child by "temperment," etc. My older girl
)was labelled "melancholic" from the first week of preschool ... and that
)view of her followed her everywhere she went, in whatever she did. I found
)that when asked about this, teachers would take umbrage and go on and on
)about how "the temperments are a great way of understanding the children,
)etc."
[Debra]
Max was labeled sanguine until he began to complain about his classroom and
how the teacher wasn't teaching him anything, when he was proptly switched
to 'melancholic'. His teacher advised me about his complaining. She said,
"Oh melancholics love a woeful story. When he complains to you, you should
tell him a story about yourself that is very sad. That is a good way to
comfort this kind of child." Luckily I didn't fall for that one.
[Lisa]
)As far as I could see, the "temperments" were just another way of stripping
)the children of their individuality until such time as Steiner said that
)they were ready to develop their individual egos or "I"s.
[Debra]
In Max's case, it was a good attempt at a diversion from having to deal
with the out of control classroom and woeful teacher.
(Blame the victim)
[Lisa]
)The most intriguing aspect of this is the way Waldorf schools advertise
)themselves -- as places were each child is nurtured and respected for who he
)or she is. Ha!
[Debra]
Boy it sure sounded good at the time, didn't it? A new word keeps coming up
for me these days when thinking of Waldorf. It is "fraud."
[Lisa]
)Please, Luke, tell us more -- whenever you have the time.
)
[Debra]
Yes, please do.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.8 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Colorado school board slams charter for bad science
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 17:11:44 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
The article below shows that a school board can be awakened to the
fact that a charter school may have an agenda at cross-purposes to
the public good. There are parallel possibilities for Waldorf
charters.
The issue in this case was evolution; I'm not posting the article in
order to start a creation/evolution debate here, please. There are
supporters of PLANS on both sides of the that debate.
-Dan Dugan
***
By a unanimous 7-0 vote, the Board of Education of the Poudre School
District (Fort Collins, CO) Monday night declared that Liberty Common
School (LCS) had breached its contract as a charter school when the latter
adopted a policy that prohibited teaching human evolution and failed to
emphasize the importance of "macro-evolution" (speciation).
The Board vote was in response to a complaint filed by Linda Rosa and Larry
Sarner on behalf of their daughter, Emily Rosa, who is an eighth-grader at
the school. They complained LCS's policy denied Emily a full education
including a complete discussion of evolution. As a charter school, the
school had obtained its charter by pledging to teach the full Core
Knowledge Sequence (CKS), "supplemented and aligned" with the Benchmarks
for Science Literacy of the American Association for the Advancement of
Science (AAAS), both of which have emphases on evolution, including human
evolution. Rosa and Sarner had protested that the anti-evolution policy
was a "bait and switch" and went back on the pledge given when LCS was
granted its charter.
The Board agreed that the policy violated the contract to fully teach CKS
in evolution. The resolution was adopted after a one-hour closed door
session where the full Board heard from a "fact-finding subcommittee". The
fact-finders cited the work of AAAS President Stephen Jay Gould which
explained that a curriculum that included only "micro-evolution" (only
intra-species change is considered and taught) was in and of itself
inadequate. They also had the LCS policy reviewed by the head of a
committee of the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) that had reacted to the
Kansas State Board of Education's recent decision not to require the
teaching of evolution in that state. Dr. Gerald Skoog said his committee
had recommended that NAS "disassociate itself" from the Kansas decision as
being "contrary to modern science." After reviewing the LCS policy,
Scholl declared that policy "paralleled" that of Kansas and warranted "the
same disassociation".
The Board subcommittee, which included a lawyer, had also said that it
deemed several provisions of the policy to be unconstitutional. It singled
out that part of the policy which declared some part of evolutionary theory
would not be taught because it might lead to religious discussions in the
classroom. "To refuse to teach parts of evolution because it might offend
the religious beliefs of some students is contrary to the constitution and
the policy of this District," declared subcommittee members Garth Rogers
and William Wawro. Two other Board members repeated this reason before
voting on the final resolution.
One Board member noted the fears of some in the community and elsewhere
that charter schools "are private schools in public school clothing."
Robert Bacon said that it was thought "other forces might take over" a
charter school, but the Board's decision would allay these fears by showing
that there is accountability in the system.
Board members also dismissed LCS's contention that it did not have to teach
some evolutionary theory because it is not required to do so by Colorado
State Model Content Standards (which deliberately ignores human evolution)
or Poudre School District requirements. "That it's not mentioned [in those
standards] is not sufficient reason for not teaching human evolution or the
origin of life," said Rogers. "Those policies do not restrict the teaching
of evolution as Liberty Common's does," he added.
The adopted resolution finally declared that the LCS policy was
"inappropriate and contrary to contract."
"This is a happy day for science," a gleeful Linda Rosa told reporters
afterwards. She and Sarner will return to the school's headmaster and
board of directors to push for formal repeal of the policy and for remedial
courses in evolution for their daughter and other children at the school.
-----------------------------------
Michael Shermer
Publisher
-----------------------------------
Copyright 1999 by Michael Shermer and the Skeptics Society. Copies of this
internet posting may be made and distributed in whole without further
permission. Credit: This has been another edition of SkepticMag Hotline, the
internet edition of Skeptic magazine and the cyberspace voice of the Skeptics
Society. For further information about the magazine and society, contact P.O.
Box 338, Altadena, CA 91001; 626/794-3119 (phone); 626/794-1301 (fax);
skepticmag aol.com and www.skeptic.com or send your message telepathically
and we will respond in kind.
For those of your not familiar with the Skeptics Society or have not seen
Skeptic magazine, see our web page: www.skeptic.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.9 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: awakening the will in homeless adults
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 22:01:18 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
OK, so if you're advisor's Anthroposophist Douglas Sloan, you can get
a doctorate for doing a thesis about "awakening the will." Even if
the program appeared to be a failure (two out of seven "made
significant progress in will development), it's not that he was doing
the wrong thing, it's that he didn't do it long enough. (sarcasm)
Interesting that Anthroposophical psychology was given the keyword
"education, religious".
-Dan Dugan
DATABASE: Dissertation Abstracts Online
ACCESSION NO.: AAG9939541
TITLE: AWAKENING THE WILL IN HOMELESS ADULTS (MANHATTAN, RUDOLF
STEINER, SUBSTANCE ABUSE, INTERPERSONAL CONFLICT)
AUTHOR: REED, WAYNE ARTHUR
DEGREE: ED.D.
YEAR: 1999
INSTITUTION: COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY TEACHERS COLLEGE; 0055
ADVISER: Sponsor: DOUGLAS SLOAN
SOURCE: DAI, VOL. 60-07A, Page 2439, 00204 Pages
DESCRIPTORS: EDUCATION, SOCIAL SCIENCES; EDUCATION, RELIGIOUS;
EDUCATION, ADULT AND CONTINUING; EDUCATION, GUIDANCE AND
COUNSELING
The purpose of this study was to design a pedagogy which awakens the
will in a small group of homeless adults. This research tracked the
formation of a small group of adults from a Manhattan soup kitchen.
The group took part in a ten-week educational process which had as
its objective the building of will in those who participated. Seven
adults completed the process. Their biographical information,
involvement in the project, and their will development is reported in
the case study.
The philosophical basis for the research is Rudolf Steiner's
understanding of the three-fold nature of the human being, the human
as willing, feeling and thinking. Drawing on Coenraad van Houten's
application of Steiner's philosophy to adult education, the
researcher constructed a multi-dimensional lesson plan which was
implemented in ten weekly sessions. At the conclusion of the study
the project was evaluated for its effectiveness in generating will in
the seven adults. The lesson plan was also analyzed and adaptations
were proposed.
By integrating interviews and participant observation this study
watched for the development of will in the participants during the
period. Physical and emotional signs of the will's presence were
documented. Each adult's progress was monitored by the researcher's
observations and the completion of an assessment tool created
especially for the project.
Results indicated that two of the seven adults made significant
progress in will development during the ten weeks. Three others made
moderate progress and two demonstrated little improvement.
Interpersonal conflicts and substance abuse among the participants
were considered to be factors which influenced the outcome of the
research. Post research findings suggested that the educational model
would have been more effective if it had been implemented over a
longer period of time.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.10 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Waldorf consistent with African-American cultural patterns
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 21:41:42 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
A friend sent us this abstract:
-Dan Dugan
ACCESSION NO.: AAG9826734
TITLE: BEYOND SURVIVAL: A CASE STUDY OF THE MILWAUKEE URBAN
WALDORF SCHOOL (WISCONSIN, WALDORF EDUCATION)
AUTHOR: WOOD, PHAIZON RHYS
DEGREE: ED.D.
YEAR: 1996
INSTITUTION: UNIVERSITY OF SAN FRANCISCO; 6019
ADVISER: Chairperson: ANITA P. DEFRANTZ
SOURCE: DAI, VOL. 59-03A, Page 0703, 00240 Pages
DESCRIPTORS: EDUCATION, BILINGUAL AND MULTICULTURAL; EDUCATION,
INTERCULTURAL; EDUCATION, PHILOSOPHY OF; BLACK STUDIES
This case study examines the concept of cultural continuity as a
contributing factor in the evaluation of effective educational
programs for African-American children. The study focus is on the
development and implementation of the first public Waldorf school
serving inner-city children in the United States. The Waldorf
approach to education was specifically created to facilitate social
transformation and the development of free individuals. It is argued
that its effectiveness is related to the clear identification of an
educational goal addressing the need to prepare these children for
leadership within the social and political context of cultural
domination and White supremacy within the United States. The Urban
Waldorf School was the only elementary school in the Milwaukee Public
School system to demonstrate gains in reading achievement for third-
grade students, as well as positive gains in a number of nonacademic
measures. An analysis of these results suggests some of the benefits
and limitations in implementing Waldorf education with this
population. The study includes an extensive literature review of the
historical, social, psychological, political, and critical
pedagogical contributions to an understanding of the institutional
barriers to achieving human freedom existent within the educational
realm. The review supports the finding that approaches to the
education of African-American children that are designed to be
consistent with African-American cultural patterns prove to be
effective on a variety of measures. Waldorf methods were compared and
found to contain the same culturally consistent approaches and
pedagogies as those cited in the literature as most effective and
that facilitate children who are participants in their own
empowerment. A critical need is for the development of an American
curriculum--an updated curriculum, consistent with the Waldorf
philosophy and pedagogy, that connects African-American children with
their cultural past as well as their lived reality in the present.
The Waldorf approach to education, with these selected and
appropriate curricular modifications, is identified as a promising
model for educational and social transformation. This educational
system represents an effective, long-term response to the structural
and institutional barriers to rehumanizing the process of schooling
in the United States.
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2535 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2536 --------------
001 - "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik - Re: Behavior Modification (WAS: Re: new Twin Ridges charterinW
002 - Sean Slovan (sean.slovan - Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
003 - Sean Slovan (sean.slovan - Re: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
004 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Waldorf education prevents cancer?
005 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Re: Waldorf education prevents cancer?
006 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Re: awakening the will in homeless adults
007 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Congressional Quarterly Researcher: Autism, LD, Mercury
Poi
008 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Waldorf consistent with African-American cultural patterns
009 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: awakening the will in homeless adults
010 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.1 ---------------
From: "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik cybertrails.com)
Subject: Re: Behavior Modification (WAS: Re: new Twin Ridges charterinWatsonville, CA)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 02:39:43 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hey Deb,
Good work stories. This next Thurs, we are having a consultant come in and
train in autism for our staff. Part of the thrust is identifying what
purpose the inappropriate behavior serves (e.g., reduction of noxious
stimulation) and differentiation between psychosis and autism,. It should
be a good one. I am not sure about the role of ABA in the presentation
although Im sure there is a big one. THe local DD people have been
encouraging the use of PACE but that remains to be seen. I keep hearing
that the "individualized" pace program is not really that individualized.
)
) Then there is the story about Kent holding math class in the bathroom...
I'll bet this one was interesting and I'll bet too that I am glad that I
did not have to deal with it.
Take care
Jim
)
)
) Thanks, Jim. I think I'll buy the book.
) Debra
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.2 ---------------
From: Sean Slovan (sean.slovan gmx.net)
Subject: Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 18:20:56 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In-Reply-To: (39B39659.EA6696F home.se)
Luke wrote/napisal(a):
) You know, Peter Koenig is the name of one of the sons of
) Christof Koenig, son of Karl Koenig, founder of the
) anthroposophical world movement known as Camphill. I think he
) lives, or for a time lived, in Australia and was a biodynamic
) farmer.
The Swiss Peter-R. Koenig is in no way related to Karl Koenig and/or his
son. Best thing is to ask him personally: (koenig cyberlink.ch). His English
is fluent. His first name is Peter, but he is not the nephew of the pope
either. Did you ever check a German directory, let's say of Berlin? Zurich
is not much better.
) Ever since I first saw this article, I wondered if this were not
) the same Peter Koenig, particularly since it is such a whitewash
) of Rudolf Steiner.
Now this is a strange argumentation: Because it is a "whitewash", Koenig has
to be part of the Anthropop conspiracy. Dietrich Eckart used the same twist
(see my other posting) when he called Steiner a Jew because his writings
smelled of "Talmud". Great!
This says it all, "Lucky". Good night.
Se·n Slov·n
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.3 ---------------
From: Sean Slovan (sean.slovan gmx.net)
Subject: Re: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 18:20:56 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In-Reply-To: (39B39659.EA6696F home.se)
Lucky Miller wrote/napisal:
) I cut and paste the following:
You would believe anything, I suppose, because it's written on a webpage?
I would not even bother to reply to such a nonsense, but for the sake of the
others... You wouldn't believe that Hitler is alive in a sub below the South
Pole, collaborating with the Greys and Clinton (and Al "the Beast" Gore of
course) for the Day X of the NWO, would you? Nevertheless it's written out
there.
Concerning Eckart and Thule, I can name the following SERIOUS research work
that anybody should READ before he/she swallows the mind-blinding crap on
the web. (Sometimes it is exasperating how people just swallow everything as
long as it suits their petty argument. Eckart is long dead, and Munich is
far away, who bothers...)
Margarete Plewnia: Auf dem Weg zu Hitler. Der 'voelkische' Publizist
Dietrich Eckart. Bremen 1970.
Engelmann, Ralph Max: Dietrich Eckart and the Genesis of Nazism. Thesis
Washington University, St. Louis 1971
Claus-Ekkehard Baersch: Die politische Religion des Nationalsozialismus. Die
religioese Dimension der NS-Ideologie in den Schriften von Dietrich Eckart,
Joseph Goebbels, Alfred Rosenberg und Adolf Hitler. Muenchen 1998.
Bruno Thoss: Der Ludendorff-Kreis 1919-1923. Koordinationsversuche des
rechten Aktionismus zwischen Revolution und Hitler-Putsch. Muenchen 1978.
Detlev Rose: Die Thule-Gesellschaft. Legende ‚ Mythos ‚ Wirklichkeit.
Tuebingen 1994.
Hermann Gilbhard: Die Thule-Gesellschaft ‚ Vom okkulten Mummenschanz zum
Hakenkreuz. Muenchen 1994.
Reginald H. Phelps: Before Hitler Came: Thule Society and Germanenorden. In:
Journal of Modern History 35 (1963), pp. 245-261.
James Webb: The Occult Establishment. LaSalle/Ill. 1976 (contains several
factual errors on Eckart).
) ìIn its formulation and content, the program of the NSDAP
) (National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei) (National
) Socialist German Workersí Party) was greatly influenced by
) Dietrich Eckart, a Thule Society member.î ñMadame Blavatsky,
) pp. 284, 286.
Eckart never was member of either the DAP or the NSDAP. He had influence on
Hitler, but stayed away from the political life of the party.
)Members in this society, among others, were Adolf
) Hitler, Rudolf Hess, Heinrich Himmler, and Hermann G–ring.
Hitler, Himmler and G–ring NEVER were members of Thule. Eckart was not a
MEMBER, only GUEST. Hess was MEMBER.
Ralph Engelmann on p. 144: "It is noteworthy that Eckart did not associate
himself with an established grouping in the Thule Society. Rather he strove
to broaden his base as an independant publicist."
)The
) publishing arm of the Thule Society became the NSDAP partyís
) publishing house.
Thule's founder Sebottendorff had bought the Muenchner Beobachter in 1918
for Thule. Thule was conceived not as an occult, but as a political society,
and was trying to agitate against "communists and Jews" in public. Eckart
helped when the NSDAP bought the paper in 1922 to turn it into the
Voelkische Beobachter.
) ìDietrich Eckart, one of the leading members of the occult
) Thule Society,
Again: He never was. Thule was not occult.
)introduced Hitler to Madame Blavatskyís teachings.
He never did. He detested Theosophy as "undeutsch" and "pornographic filth".
His mental background was much more influenced by the Catholic Church. His
favorite thinker was the Baroque and heterodox mystic from Silesia, Angelus
Silesius.
)In
) December 1923, Eckart said on his deathbed: ëFollow Hitler! He
) will dance, but I will decide on the melody. I introduced him
) to The Secret Doctrine, opened his visionary centers, and thus
) gave him the ability to make connection with the forces.Öí î
) ñDie sanfte Verf¸hrung, p. 140.
This quotation is not authentic. It was first invented in 1970 by Trevor
Ravenscroft in his imaginative collection of fairy tales, "The Spear of
Destiny".
) I recall being given a copy of Dietrich Eckart's book on
) Parzival to read by a senior anthroposophist of the WWII
) generation (I believe the book was called "Parzival in 12
) Pictures" or something like that). ). This book was commonly
) distributed and read in anthroposophical circles.
Horrid web lore. I suppose it relates to what was Ravenscroft's mythologic
account in the beginning, namely that the anthroposophist W.J. Stein
supposedly found before WW I in a Vienna second-hand bookshop the copy of
"Parzival" by Wolfram von Eschenbach (early 13th c.) which was originally
Hitler's own copy with many hand-written annotations. It has been proven by
Christoph Lindenberg that this bookshop never existed in the first place,
and besides, WJ Stein never "found" a book owned by Hitler.
Eckart never wrote any book on Parzival or a similar subject.
) I meant to include the information that one of the reasons I
) believe the individual who gave me the book to read "*did* know"
) is because upon handing it to me, this person said that this
) particular version of the legend of Parzival was very special
) but they could not explain why this was so.)
What exactly you mean? You were given a book that has not been written? Or
was it Wolfram? Wolfram's rendering IS special, very beautiful and deep.
Take a course in medieval literature for a start.
The following is a sample of what Eckart thought about Anthroposophy and
Steiner, taken from his own newspaper "Auf gut deutsch" (= AGD) and from the
Voelkische Beobachter (= VB):
AGD, July 11, 1919, p. 222: "Recently, I have been asked incessently what I
think of Dr. Rudolf Steiner. My answer confined itself to the facts that
many years ago in Berlin whedn he was enthused by Nietzsche I once heard him
speak from a miraculously suspended dais; that recently an "Appeal"
concocted by him came my way signed by a number of 'eminent' names which was
nonetheless completely without content, indeed thoroughly confused; and
lastly, that I saw him as a JEW whom I wouldn't trust across the street."
VB Oct 19, 1921, frontpage: RS is a "Edelkommunist", "der Mann nach Israels
Herzen" (first-class communist, a Man dear to Israel").
VB May 27, 1922 (Steiner then held a public lecture in Munich, during which
he was attacked by Nazis): Steiner "soll kein Jude gewesen sein, aber wer
sich mit den Krueppelformen des Steinerischen Denkens befasst hat, erkennt
unschwer, dass Kabbala und Talmud das Sperma waren, aus dem dieses
sonderbare Gewaechs gedieh". (Steiner is said not to be Jewish, but anyone
who has studied the crippled forms of Steiner's thought, will easily realise
that Kabbala and Talmud were the sperm from which this strange plant grew".
VB May 27, 1922: "Herr Steiner ist wie seine theosophischen Brueder
Edelkommunist" (Mr. Steiner is, like his theosophical brothers, a first-rate
communist.)
VB May 27, 1922: "Mit einem solchen deutschfeindlichen Charlatan sich
ernsthaft auseinanderzusetzen, strauebt sich der Bleistift". (If one would
try to discuss seriously such an anti-German swindler, then the pen is
revolting.)
VB May 27, 1922: "Herr Steiner will mit seiner Lehre praktisch das Gleiche,
was alle Feinde unserer voelkischen und staatlichen Selbst”ndigkeit
anstreben. Nur nennt er es anders. Unter dem Namen "Anthroposophie" und
"Dreigliederung" geht er seinen dunklen Geschaeften nach, [...] unser Volk
mit seinen Lehren zu verseuchen, und durch seinen Einfluss auf weiteste
Kreise ist er zu einer Gefahr fuer unsere Gegenwart und Zukunft geworden.
Herr Steiner mag seine Giftbruehe im Ausland verspritzen..."
(Mr. Steiner wants with his teachings practically the same as all the
enemies of our voelkisch and national independence. He only calls it
differently. Under the name of "Anthroposophy" and "Threefolding", he
pursues his dirty business, [...] to infect our Volk with his teachings, and
because of his influence on wide circles, he has become a danger for our
present and future. Mr. Steiner may spray his poisonous brew abroad...)
Oct 22, 1922 VB: "Der Prophet aus Kraljewitz (Kraljevec, Steiner's
birthplace in today's Croatia, Se·n) ist tot f¸r Deutschland" (For Germany,
the prophet from Kraljevec is dead...)
For the sake of serious historical research,
Se·n Slov·n
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.4 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Waldorf education prevents cancer?
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 01:26:30 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
In the Anthroposophical medical journal *Mercury*, Steiner's theory
that too-early intellectualizing will lead to illness is interpreted
with regard to cancer:
"In school, the forces of growth must be transformed into forces of
thinking through suitable education. In the discussion of the cell,
it was shown that growth forces which are not bound to cell life in
the brain are at the service of thought. Steiner's educational
system, wholly based on the development of the child, takes great
care that no unused growth forces remain behind which could, in later
life, become centers of proliferation. A school which mainly
emphasizes the formation of intellectual capabilities is not able to
transform all growth forces which are active in the depths of the
organism in a way that they could serve the ego as sources of
thinking, representation, and memory. The unused life forces become
trapped and as such are potential sources of tumor formation."
[Lorenz MD, Friedrich. "Cancer: A Mandate to Humanity." Mercury Number 16: June 1997: Journal of the Anthroposophical Therapy and Hygiene Association. Chestnut Ridge, NY, p. 17.]
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.5 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf education prevents cancer?
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 11:01:24 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (200009041716.KAA26263 lists1.best.com)
Well, this is just the Anthroposophical Journal, who else but other
anthropops take this stuff seriously? In other words who cares! Think of
all the other unfounded stuff such as homeopathic medicine out there, this
is just more of the same...
--Rose
At 01:26 AM 9/4/00 -0700, you wrote:
)In the Anthroposophical medical journal *Mercury*, Steiner's theory
)that too-early intellectualizing will lead to illness is interpreted
)with regard to cancer:
)
)"In school, the forces of growth must be transformed into forces of
)thinking through suitable education. In the discussion of the cell,
)it was shown that growth forces which are not bound to cell life in
)the brain are at the service of thought. Steiner's educational
)system, wholly based on the development of the child, takes great
)care that no unused growth forces remain behind which could, in later
)life, become centers of proliferation. A school which mainly
)emphasizes the formation of intellectual capabilities is not able to
)transform all growth forces which are active in the depths of the
)organism in a way that they could serve the ego as sources of
)thinking, representation, and memory. The unused life forces become
)trapped and as such are potential sources of tumor formation."
)
)[Lorenz MD, Friedrich. "Cancer: A Mandate to Humanity." Mercury Number 16:
June 1997: Journal of the Anthroposophical Therapy and Hygiene Association.
Chestnut Ridge, NY, p. 17.]
)
)-Dan Dugan
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.6 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Re: awakening the will in homeless adults
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 11:33:14 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (200009040606.XAA22948 lists1.best.com)
The shocking thing is the school this is coming out of. It figures it is a
degree in Ed, which is a piece of garbage degree as far as I am concerned
and this just gives more force to my belief. How pathetic.
Also, it is ironic that this same school confers degrees in Applied
Behavioral Analysis. If it was Douglas Greer, also at this school, rather
than Douglas Sloan you would have something more substantive. What is the
world coming too?
--Rose
At 10:01 PM 9/3/00 -0700, you wrote:
)OK, so if you're advisor's Anthroposophist Douglas Sloan, you can get
)a doctorate for doing a thesis about "awakening the will." Even if
)the program appeared to be a failure (two out of seven "made
)significant progress in will development), it's not that he was doing
)the wrong thing, it's that he didn't do it long enough. (sarcasm)
)
)Interesting that Anthroposophical psychology was given the keyword
)"education, religious".
)
)-Dan Dugan
)
)DATABASE: Dissertation Abstracts Online
)
) ACCESSION NO.: AAG9939541
) TITLE: AWAKENING THE WILL IN HOMELESS ADULTS (MANHATTAN, RUDOLF
) STEINER, SUBSTANCE ABUSE, INTERPERSONAL CONFLICT)
) AUTHOR: REED, WAYNE ARTHUR
) DEGREE: ED.D.
) YEAR: 1999
) INSTITUTION: COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY TEACHERS COLLEGE; 0055
) ADVISER: Sponsor: DOUGLAS SLOAN
) SOURCE: DAI, VOL. 60-07A, Page 2439, 00204 Pages
) DESCRIPTORS: EDUCATION, SOCIAL SCIENCES; EDUCATION, RELIGIOUS;
) EDUCATION, ADULT AND CONTINUING; EDUCATION, GUIDANCE AND
) COUNSELING
)
)The purpose of this study was to design a pedagogy which awakens the
)will in a small group of homeless adults. This research tracked the
)formation of a small group of adults from a Manhattan soup kitchen.
)The group took part in a ten-week educational process which had as
)its objective the building of will in those who participated. Seven
)adults completed the process. Their biographical information,
)involvement in the project, and their will development is reported in
)the case study.
)
)The philosophical basis for the research is Rudolf Steiner's
)understanding of the three-fold nature of the human being, the human
)as willing, feeling and thinking. Drawing on Coenraad van Houten's
)application of Steiner's philosophy to adult education, the
)researcher constructed a multi-dimensional lesson plan which was
)implemented in ten weekly sessions. At the conclusion of the study
)the project was evaluated for its effectiveness in generating will in
)the seven adults. The lesson plan was also analyzed and adaptations
)were proposed.
)By integrating interviews and participant observation this study
)watched for the development of will in the participants during the
)period. Physical and emotional signs of the will's presence were
)documented. Each adult's progress was monitored by the researcher's
)observations and the completion of an assessment tool created
)especially for the project.
)
)Results indicated that two of the seven adults made significant
)progress in will development during the ten weeks. Three others made
)moderate progress and two demonstrated little improvement.
)Interpersonal conflicts and substance abuse among the participants
)were considered to be factors which influenced the outcome of the
)research. Post research findings suggested that the educational model
)would have been more effective if it had been implemented over a
)longer period of time.
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.7 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Congressional Quarterly Researcher: Autism, LD, Mercury
Poisoning
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 11:59:59 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
)
Dan, what do you make of this? Do you think my child has mercury
poisoniing from receiving the Heb B vaccine the first day of his life?
Also, what is the anthro cure for mercury poisoning? What is the
allopathic cure for mercury poisoning? What is the naturopathic cure for
mercury poisoning? I'll try anything to cure his "autism" if that is what
it is instead of mercury poisoning.
Thanks
--Rose
)
)Subject: Parents Blame Mercury For Autism..Congressional Quarterly Researcher
)August 25, 2000
)---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
)
)An audible gasp erupted from the audience at a congressional hearing in July
)after a presentation by a group of parents of autistic children from New
)Jersey.
)
)Their 85-page report on their exhaustive search of medical literature
)included a chart listing 75 symptoms characteristic of autism -- such as
)social withdrawal, obsessive-compulsive traits, arm flapping, head banging
)and toe walking. Alongside those traits, they had listed 75 symptoms
)attributable to mercury poisoning. As they read the chart, members of the
)audience gasped. The two lists of symptoms were nearly identical -- for all
)75 symptoms.
)
)"As a trained scientist, my reading of the mercury literature indicates that
)every trait that defines autism can be induced by organic mercury
)[poisoning]," said Albert Enayati, a chemist and president of the New Jersey
)chapter of the Cure Autism Now Foundation (CAN), which did the study. His
son
)Payam developed normally until he received his DPT and MMR shots, after
which
)he stopped talking and interacting with people and began toe walking, head
)banging and arm flapping.
)
)Enayati and other parents at the hearing claimed that excessive amounts of
)mercury from multiple vaccines may have triggered their children's
late-onset
)autism, a new type of autism in which a normally developing child suddenly
)loses speech and social and cognitive skills. Classic autism is considered a
)genetic condition that exists from birth.
)
)Theories about autism have been tested and discarded for decades. Medical
)associations and public health officials insist there is no scientific
)evidence that vaccines cause autism. However, in recent years -- with rates
)of the disorder skyrocketing across the country -- frantic parents are
)increasingly questioning the vaccine-autism connection.
)
)And mercury in vaccines is not the only concern. Doctors and researchers are
)examining whether -- for a small, mercury- sensitive segment of the
)population -- the measles vaccine, perhaps in conjunction with mercury or
)other environmental toxins, may trigger "autism-spectrum disorders" ranging
)from learning disabilities and attention-deficit disorders on the mild end
to
)autism on the severe end.
)
)The American Medical Association (AMA) recently said that up to 20 percent
of
)children have one of a spectrum of neurodevelopmental conditions that
)includes autism, learning disorders and attention-deficit/hyperactivity
)disorder. In California, autism diagnoses soared 273 percent and diagnoses
of
)related disorders skyrocketed 1,966 percent between 1987 and 1998. Maryland
)reported a 513 percent rise in autism between 1993 and 1998, and several
)dozen other states have reported increases of 300 percent or more.
)
)Mercury, a potent neurotoxin linked to mental retardation, cerebral palsy
and
)central nervous system disorders, has been used in vaccines since the 1930s,
)in a preservative called thimerosal. Thimerosal is present in more than 50
)vaccines and other medicines, even though it has been banned in many
)over-the-counter medications since the 1980s.
)
)Because children in the past decade have begun receiving more vaccines at
)earlier ages -- often multiple vaccines in a single day -- concerns have
)arisen about how much mercury infant brains are being exposed to from
)vaccines.
)
)(California Department of Developmental Services)
)
)"My grandson received vaccines for nine different diseases in one day," said
)House Government Reform Committee Chairman Dan Burton, R-Ind., who said the
)child is now autistic. "He may have been exposed to 62.5 micrograms of
)mercury in one day through his vaccines. According to his weight, [that] is
)41 times the amount at which harm can be caused." And Burton added, "These
)vaccines are still in use."
)
)Lyndale Redwood, a nurse from Atlanta, told the hearing that her autistic
)2-month-old son had received 125 times his allowable daily exposure of
)mercury after getting two infant vaccines in one day. "These large exposures
)continued at 4, 6, 12 and 18 months," she said. She also discovered that the
)injections she received during the first and third trimesters of her
)pregnancy and an hour after delivery to prevent RH blood incompatibility
also
)contained mercury. An analysis of her son's hair revealed that he had five
)times more mercury than was considered safe.
)
)Mercury is extremely toxic to developing fetal brains. In many parts of the
)country, pregnant mothers are advised not to eat canned tuna fish, which
)contains high levels of mercury. Emissions from coal-fired power plants are
)another major source of mercury contamination.
)
)Parents at the hearing were particularly concerned about the impact of
)mercury on the brains of hours-old newborns, who, since 1991, have been
)immunized with a thimerosal-containing hepatitis B vaccine before they leave
)the hospital. They angrily demanded to know why federal agencies had not
)banned the use of mercury.
)
)William Egan, acting director of the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA)
)Office of Vaccine Research and Review, said, "There is no convincing data or
)evidence of any harm caused by the low levels of thimerosal that some
)children may have encountered in following the existing immunization
)schedule." Furthermore, the federal guidelines for mercury exposure include
)margins of safety, and most vaccine exposure is within that margin of
safety,
)he said.
)
)Benjamin Schwartz, acting director of epidemiology and surveillance for the
)Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's (CDC) National Immunization
)Program (NIP), says "There's a difference between chronic, daily exposure
and
)what a child can be exposed to on any given day." The agency interprets the
)mercury guidelines as how much a person can be exposed to over six months.
)
)Nevertheless, Egan said, even though the threat from mercury is only
)"theoretical," the government last year asked manufacturers to voluntarily
)remove or significantly reduce by next spring the thimerosal from all
)vaccines routinely administered to infants. It was not banned outright in
)order not to disrupt the nation's vaccine supply, he said.
)
)As a result, said Roger H. Bernier, associate director for science at the
)NIP, the amount of mercury an infant may be exposed to from routine
)immunizations has been reduced by 60 percent in the past year.
)
)Plus, responding to concerns about newborns, the CDC recommended that
)physicians temporarily discontinue giving them the hepatitis B vaccine at
)birth until a mercury-free vaccine was available. Mercury has since been
)removed from the vaccine, and it is again given routinely to newborns.
)
)Redwood also cited a West Coast study of the mercury exposure of 120,000
)children, which showed a "statistically significant (albeit weak)
)association" between thimerosal exposure and attention deficit disorders,
)tics, speech and language delay and neurodevelopment delays in general."
But
)Bernier said the CDC duplicated the study but did not get the same results.
)
)"These results require further scrutiny," he said, "but the direction of the
)findings is reassuring."
)
)However, Neal Halsey, director of the Institute for Vaccine Safety at Johns
)Hopkins University, said, "Uncertainties rising from the new data do not
)resolve any of the controversies or differences of opinion regarding the
)potential risks from thimerosal in vaccines," he said.
)
)"Additional studies need to be conducted." [1]
)
)Bernier said the CDC is studying whether autism is related to the measles
)vaccine. The agency is also collaborating with the National Institutes of
)Health (NIH) on a study of autistic regression and vaccination.
)
)Finally, the CDC, NIH and Institute of Medicine (IOM) have recently
)established a standing committee on vaccine safety, which will assess new
)evidence about possible adverse health effects -- including autism -- from
)vaccines.
)
)But pediatricians like Stephanie Cave of Baton Rouge, La., are not waiting
)for any more studies. She says she is seeing major improvements using
)timed-release chelation therapy to remove mercury and other heavy metals
from
)autistic and learning-disabled children's bodies. "As the treatments
)progress," she says, "we're seeing eye contact, socialization and speech.
The
)children are literally turning around."
)
)But she and other researchers do not think that mercury is the only
culprit.
)She thinks the mercury may compromise babies' immune systems, so that when
)babies get their measles, mumps, rubella (MMR) vaccines at age 15 months,
the
)body may not be able to fight off the viruses as well as it should.
)
)A related theory set off a firestorm two years ago, when a report appeared
in
)the influential British medical journal Lancet arguing that the MMR vaccine
)might trigger a bowel disorder that may allow toxins like mercury to cross
)from the blood into the brain, causing regressive autism. The report was
)widely criticized as methodologically flawed, and at least two subsequent
)epidemiological studies did not find a link. Additional studies are being
)conducted.
)
)But Rick Rollens, a Granite Bay, Calif., parent whose child developed
)late-onset autism following vaccines, thinks independent studies must be
done
)on this subject, without influence from either the vaccine industry or the
)public health agencies. Prodded by Rollens and the parents of other
autistic
)children, the California legislature appropriated $34 million for a study of
)neurodevelopmental disorders at the University of California at Davis.
)
)"Asking the public health community to investigate the role of vaccines in
)the development of autism is like asking the tobacco industry to investigate
)the link between lung cancer and smoking," Rollens says.
)
)[1] From the Institute for Vaccine Safety Web site,
)www.vaccinesafety.edu/ACIP-thim-0621.htm.
)
))From the CQ Researcher of Aug 25, 2000
)
)© 2000 Congressional Quarterly Inc. All Rights Reserved.
)
)
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.8 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf consistent with African-American cultural patterns
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 13:41:38 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
) A friend sent us this abstract:
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
) ACCESSION NO.: AAG9826734
) TITLE: BEYOND SURVIVAL: A CASE STUDY OF THE
) MILWAUKEE URBAN
) WALDORF SCHOOL (WISCONSIN, WALDORF
) EDUCATION)
) AUTHOR: WOOD, PHAIZON RHYS
) DEGREE: ED.D.
) YEAR: 1996
) INSTITUTION: UNIVERSITY OF SAN FRANCISCO; 6019
) ADVISER: Chairperson: ANITA P. DEFRANTZ
) SOURCE: DAI, VOL. 59-03A, Page 0703, 00240 Pages
) DESCRIPTORS: EDUCATION, BILINGUAL AND MULTICULTURAL;
) EDUCATION,
) INTERCULTURAL; EDUCATION, PHILOSOPHY OF;
) BLACK STUDIES
(snip)
Waldorf methods were
) compared and
) found to contain the same culturally consistent approaches and
)
) pedagogies as those cited in the literature as most effective
) and
) that facilitate children who are participants in their own
) empowerment. A critical need is for the development of an
) American
) curriculum--an updated curriculum, consistent with the Waldorf
)
) philosophy and pedagogy, that connects African-American
) children with
) their cultural past as well as their lived reality in the
) present.
(snip)
Sounds great, doesn't it? However, in the context of a broader
discussion and/or understanding of the concept of racial and
ethnic destinies and karma in anthroposophy, it is geopolitics
as usual: ethnic (and racial) groups keep to within their own
boundaries and must maintain their distinctive identities,
"unpolluted" by characteristics, ideals or values determined (by
"spiritual investigation") not to belong to that ethnic or
racial group. The unique destiny of each folksoul must be
fulfilled (likewise only determinable by "spiritual
investigation") and every individual has the obligation to
commit their lives to make it happen.
Also, their racial or ethnic identity is believed to have been
"chosen" (by default or by intention) by each person as a
critical necessary element of their present incarnation in order
to achieve that which they are meant to or which they seek to
achieve in this life. It is kind of like training camp for
athletes: the "camp training facilities" (so-called
characteristics defining each ethnic or racial group) is fixed
and does not change in response to the individual since its
purpose is to force the individual to change him or her self in
response to the demands of the "camp" (ethnic or racial
incarnation) and to develop the will to do so.
Two options here: the first option is that the person may be
able to find the means to relocate him or her self into another
cultural environment. This may either be deemed "spiritually
necessary" (in which case the change is not challenged) *or* it
may be deemed as "running from one's karma", which is *never*
permitted, and in which case the ethnocultural imperatives which
the individual had found so offensive or undesirable will be
imposed upon him or her by those anthroposophists (overt and
covert) in the new environment at any and all opportunities to
do so. If it is deemed spiritually necessary, then the social
and cultural imperatives (read: stereotype) of the *new* ethnic
group (linked inextricably to geography) are imposed for the
purposes of "spiritual development". (This is just a sketch: as
always in Anthroposophy, things get incredibly baroque:
sometimes the "purpose" of the person's cultural relocation is
to assist in the "spiritual development" of the ethnic group by
providing spiritual guidance, etc. A prime example of this is
the Camphill and Waldorf movements in black South Africa. We
don't want to fall into the anthropop trap of literally getting
lost in thought.)
The second option is that one simply fails to "learn the
lessons" from one's ethnic or racial incarnation, the
circumstances producing failure or discomfort are repeated and
reinforced ad nauseum, one dies unchanged in these critical
particulars and one must therefor be reincarnated into the same
situation again and again until the lesson is finally learned.
There are always exceptions in anthroposophy (probably because
the "laws" as they perceive them are full of holes and can't
hold up to reality), but those individuals who prove themselves
to be capable of escaping the prison of ethnic and racial
stereotype are thought to have a "special destiny" or to be
spiritual leaders of their types who have evolved somewhat ahead
of the rest and are therefor exceptional and hence are not
accepted as proof of the error of the stereotype.
Luke
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.9 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: awakening the will in homeless adults
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 14:03:24 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
) OK, so if you're advisor's Anthroposophist Douglas Sloan, you
) can get
) a doctorate for doing a thesis about "awakening the will."
) Even if
) the program appeared to be a failure (two out of seven "made
) significant progress in will development), it's not that he
) was doing
) the wrong thing, it's that he didn't do it long enough.
) (sarcasm)
)
) Interesting that Anthroposophical psychology was given the
) keyword
) "education, religious".
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
) DATABASE: Dissertation Abstracts Online
)
) ACCESSION NO.: AAG9939541
) TITLE: AWAKENING THE WILL IN HOMELESS ADULTS
) (MANHATTAN, RUDOLF
) STEINER, SUBSTANCE ABUSE, INTERPERSONAL
) CONFLICT)
) AUTHOR: REED, WAYNE ARTHUR
) DEGREE: ED.D.
) YEAR: 1999
) INSTITUTION: COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY TEACHERS COLLEGE; 0055
) ADVISER: Sponsor: DOUGLAS SLOAN
) SOURCE: DAI, VOL. 60-07A, Page 2439, 00204 Pages
) DESCRIPTORS: EDUCATION, SOCIAL SCIENCES; EDUCATION,
) RELIGIOUS;
) EDUCATION, ADULT AND CONTINUING; EDUCATION,
) GUIDANCE AND
) COUNSELING
)
(snip)
) Post research findings suggested that the
) educational model
) would have been more effective if it had been implemented over
) a
) longer period of time.
as in: many future incarnations!
One of the things that is totally outrageous here, but also
tallies with the incident reported to the list about the shaming
treatment given a special needs student in a Waldorf school, is
the assertion that homeless people are simply weak-willed and
that is what has created their situation.
Shades of prohibition! Like many Anthropop ideas, this is just
another outdated and discredited one that has been dragged out
of their Steiner Museum of Victorianisms and dusted off for
reintroduction.
My understanding is that many homeless people, if not most, are
in need of medical treatment and/or hospitalization which they
do not have the means of obtaining independently and which,
thanks to the success of Reaganism in the 80s, are not available
to them through any public programs. Not to mention those who
fell into the streets as a cruel result of downsizing,
outsourcing, salary and hiring freezes, and the like. Economic
realities do have a thing or two to do with whether or not one
can afford to rent or buy a home. There was a major article not
too many months ago (in Time magazine?) about the fact that
Silicon Valley has become just such a place where housing has
become so outrageously overpriced that professionals earning
$80,000 a year are unable to find a place to live and must live
out of their cars.
And then there is the perennial problem of the working poor:
blue collar workers (i.e., the people who build your homes, fix
your cars, take care of your lawns, repair your roads, build
your bridges, etc. etc.) who cannot afford the cost of housing
in the areas they work in and so must live out of cars and in
parks to be feasibly near their places of employment.
But solving those kinds of problems would take a hell of a lot
more brain power, imagination, creativity, cooperation, good
will, determination, leadership and moral courage than "our
friends" at Columbia Teacher's College (and their anthropop
buddies) seem capable of.
It's much simpler just to blame the victims.
Luke
__________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.10 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:05:07 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Sean Slovan (sean.slovan gmx.net) wrote:
) Lucky Miller wrote/napisal:
) ) I cut and paste the following:
)
) You would believe anything, I suppose, because it's written on
) a webpage?
What is your evidence for such a ridiculous proposition?
) I would not even bother to reply to such a nonsense, but for
) the sake of the
) others... You wouldn't believe that Hitler is alive in a sub
) below the South
) Pole, collaborating with the Greys and Clinton (and Al "the
) Beast" Gore of
) course) for the Day X of the NWO, would you?
Absolutely not. What made you come to such a fantastic notion? I
hope you're not suffering from anything you should be taking
medication for (or from anything you inhaled or ingested).
) Nevertheless it's
) written out
) there.
"Out there"? As far "out there" as the akashic chronicles?
)
) Concerning Eckart and Thule, I can name the following SERIOUS
) research work
) that anybody should READ before he/she swallows the
) mind-blinding crap on
) the web. (Sometimes it is exasperating how people just swallow
) everything as
) long as it suits their petty argument.
A criticism commonly made about the supporters of anthroposophy.
) Eckart is long dead,
So are Rudolf Steiner and Jesus Christ: I don't see what your
"argument" proves.
) and Munich is
) far away, who bothers...)
if this is an argument of some sort that is supposed to prove
something, it is far too obscure to be successful.
)
) Margarete Plewnia: Auf dem Weg zu Hitler. Der 'voelkische'
) Publizist
) Dietrich Eckart. Bremen 1970.
Oh, good: another referral to a German-language source. Do you
happen to have translated it for us?
)
) Engelmann, Ralph Max: Dietrich Eckart and the Genesis of
) Nazism. Thesis
) Washington University, St. Louis 1971
Something in English! I'll have to see if I can get this.
However, I do not assume that just because the author is an
academic that everything he/she says is to be believed,
particularly without knowing the author's bias(es).
) Claus-Ekkehard Baersch: Die politische Religion des
) Nationalsozialismus. Die
) religioese Dimension der NS-Ideologie in den Schriften von
) Dietrich Eckart,
) Joseph Goebbels, Alfred Rosenberg und Adolf Hitler. Muenchen
) 1998.
Oh, good: another referral to a German-language source. Do you
happen to have translated it for us?
) Bruno Thoss: Der Ludendorff-Kreis 1919-1923.
) Koordinationsversuche des
) rechten Aktionismus zwischen Revolution und Hitler-Putsch.
) Muenchen 1978.
Oh, good: another referral to a German-language source. Do you
happen to have translated it for us?
) Detlev Rose: Die Thule-Gesellschaft. Legende ‚ Mythos ‚
) Wirklichkeit.
) Tuebingen 1994.
Oh, good: another referral to a German-language source. Do you
happen to have translated it for us?
) Hermann Gilbhard: Die Thule-Gesellschaft ‚ Vom okkulten
) Mummenschanz zum
) Hakenkreuz. Muenchen 1994.
Oh, good: another referral to a German-language source. Do you
happen to have translated it for us?
) Reginald H. Phelps: Before Hitler Came: Thule Society and
) Germanenorden. In:
) Journal of Modern History 35 (1963), pp. 245-261.
Something in English! I'll have to see if I can get this.
However, I do not assume that just because the author is an
academic that everything he/she says is to be believed,
particularly without knowing the author's bias(es).
)
) James Webb: The Occult Establishment. LaSalle/Ill. 1976
) (contains several
) factual errors on Eckart).
If it has several factual errors on Eckart, why would you
recommend it? Because, despite it's proclivity for "factual
errors" it supports your position?
) ) ìIn its formulation and content, the program of the NSDAP
) ) (National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei) (National
) ) Socialist German Workersí Party) was greatly influenced by
) ) Dietrich Eckart, a Thule Society member.î ñMadame Blavatsky,
) ) pp. 284, 286.
)
) Eckart never was member of either the DAP or the NSDAP.
The author never said he was. Your argument has no object.
) He had
) influence on
) Hitler, but stayed away from the political life of the party.
So far, you have failed to contradict anything the author says.
) )Members in this society, among others, were Adolf
) ) Hitler, Rudolf Hess, Heinrich Himmler, and Hermann G–ring.
)
) Hitler, Himmler and G–ring NEVER were members of Thule. Eckart
) was not a
) MEMBER, only GUEST. Hess was MEMBER.
Please cite sources.
As I understand it, because the Thule and other occult societies
were (and are) secret societies, there is little or no means of
verifying most, if any, of these assertions via documentary
evidence. If you have recourse to such documentary evidence, I
would be interested to know what it is.
However the fact may be that direct documentary evidence has
been secreted away or destroyed in order to thwart
investigations, that piece of trickery cannot be allowed to
sabotage efforts to unveil the truth. As in courts of law,
destruction of evidence does not necessarily derail the case.
) Ralph Engelmann on p. 144: "It is noteworthy that Eckart did
) not associate
) himself with an established grouping in the Thule Society.
) Rather he strove
) to broaden his base as an independant publicist."
What is noteworthy about this?
) )The
) ) publishing arm of the Thule Society became the NSDAP partyís
) ) publishing house.
)
) Thule's founder Sebottendorff had bought the Muenchner
) Beobachter in 1918
) for Thule. Thule was conceived not as an occult, but as a
) political society,
) and was trying to agitate against "communists and Jews" in
) public.
Are you trying to say that the Thule Society had no occult or
religious aspect?
) Eckart
) helped when the NSDAP bought the paper in 1922 to turn it into
) the
) Voelkische Beobachter.
Again, you have failed to disprove or even controvert the
author.
) ) ìDietrich Eckart, one of the leading members of the occult
) ) Thule Society,
)
) Again: He never was. Thule was not occult.
You are one of the very few who would say so. You will have to
prove your statement.
) )introduced Hitler to Madame Blavatskyís teachings.
)
) He never did. He detested Theosophy as "undeutsch" and
) "pornographic filth".
Please cite your source.
) His mental background was much more influenced by the Catholic
) Church.
Are you anti-Catholic?
) His
) favorite thinker was the Baroque and heterodox mystic from
) Silesia, Angelus
) Silesius.
Steiner also reflects Catholic influence and had great regard
for St. Thomas Aquinas; that does not make him Catholic in his
thought or proclivities.
) )In
) ) December 1923, Eckart said on his deathbed: ëFollow Hitler!
) He
) ) will dance, but I will decide on the melody. I introduced
) him
) ) to The Secret Doctrine, opened his visionary centers, and
) thus
) ) gave him the ability to make connection with the forces.Öí î
) ) ñDie sanfte Verf¸hrung, p. 140.
)
) This quotation is not authentic. It was first invented in 1970
) by Trevor
) Ravenscroft in his imaginative collection of fairy tales, "The
) Spear of
) Destiny".
I am aware of the controversy about this assertion, and I only
included it in the cutting and pasting because I didn't have the
time to be more surgical in my cutting and pasting. However, as
I recall, the primary source for discrediting the Ravenscroft
account is Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke, whom, it would appear from
the fact of his and his wife's associations with occult groups
and contributions to Theosophy magazine, is himself an occultist
who no doubt wishes to disassociate occultism from the Nazi
horror for his own reasons (given your propensity to jump to
unsupported conclusions, I hasten to add that I impune no evil
or even bad motives to Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke nor do I presume
to challenge his scholarship; however, he is still human so far
as I am aware), and is not therefor not necessarily altogether
objective, despite his obvious scholarliness.
The fact is that occultism was very popular in the 20's and 30's
(much as it is now) -- many artists and writers were in fact
Theosophists (or, less commonly, its variant, Anthroposophy),
that being the particularly "chic" shade of occultism to be
colored by at the time. Occult ideas (very much including those
generated by that European mix of Rosicrucian,
Theosophical/Anthroposophical and Gnostic principles and
theology) put to worldly political use resulted in one of the
greatest horrors in history and present day occultists want to
deny this fact. Since anthroposophy also seeks to subjugate the
mundane world to its occult (irrational) belief system, I think
it is very important to be able to examine the pitfalls and
dangers inherent in such a plan, particularly as history is able
to provide relevant examples.
This is all I have time for. This response has taken up far too
much of my time as it is.
Your response and referrals, corrections, etc. are welcomed; it
is unfortunate that you chose to offer them in an offensive,
hostile, insulting and destructive spirit.
Luke
__________________________________________________
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--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2536 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2537 --------------
001 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Congressional Quarterly Researcher: Autism, LD, Mercury
002 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
003 - "truth matters" (truthmat - Re: US, Ford and Nazi Germany
004 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede -
005 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - post-CAN cult wars
006 - iris springflower (irissp - new to list
007 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: new to list
008 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
009 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Congressional Quarterly Researcher: Autism, LD, Mercury
010 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re:
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2537.1 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Congressional Quarterly Researcher: Autism, LD, Mercury Poisoning
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:21:44 -0700 (PDT)
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--- Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com) wrote:
(snip)
) I'll try anything to cure his "autism" if
) that is what
) it is instead of mercury poisoning.
(snip)
) )Subject: Parents Blame Mercury For Autism..Congressional
) Quarterly Researcher
) )August 25, 2000
As per the anthropop book by Thomas Weiss (? if I recall
correctly), "In Need of Special Care" (or else, "Children in
Need of Special Care" -- I can never recall which it was
because, I think, most people called it by the second name
whereas the actual title was the first)-- *unless* it's been
"retranslated" (actually, I think it was originally published in
english) to edit this out...
The Camphill anthropop take on autism is (or at least was)
largely (surprisingly) conventional, albeit totally out of date
and wrong, in that it primarily supports the now discredited
theory that autism is caused by "cold, unresponsive" mothers,
primarily professionals and the well-educated. It is considered
to be an "incarnation sickness", if I recall correctly, under
the theory that the "incarnating soul" recoiled at the last
moment before its moment of conception in fear of its impending
life (with its "cold, unresponsive mother", I guess) and never
is able to "stand in the I", i.e., claim full possession of its
ego.
Epilepsy is also considered to be an incarnation sickness, and
due to the passage of time, I may be confusing part of the above
description with the anthropop theory about that (the recoiling
from incarnation part).
Luke
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2537.2 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 18:37:43 -0700 (PDT)
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--- Sean Slovan (sean.slovan gmx.net) wrote:
) Luke wrote/napisal(a):
)
) ) You know, Peter Koenig is the name of one of the sons of
) ) Christof Koenig, son of Karl Koenig, founder of the
) ) anthroposophical world movement known as Camphill. I think
) he
) ) lives, or for a time lived, in Australia and was a
) biodynamic
) ) farmer.
)
) The Swiss Peter-R. Koenig
I have no way of knowing what this fellow's nationality is (or
even Christof Koenig's son) due to the nature of the internet.
Christof Koenig's son himself could very well have a Swiss
passport: his living (or once living) in Australia does not mean
otherwise. It is very common for anthropops, and particularly
those in Camphill, to have passports and nationalities that are
very different from what would have assumed based on present
location, language abilities, etc.
) is in no way related to Karl Koenig
) and/or his
) son.
[Well, silly me, I took you at your word but later research on
the web showed me that at best you are being very misleading: at
the very least it would appear that Peter R. Koenig has a very
strong pro-anthroposophical bias, and indeed may well be --
indeed, most likely is -- an anthroposophist. See P.S. at end of
post.]
) Best thing is to ask him personally:
If I had had the email address, I would have. But since you have
been so kind as to do that for me, I don't have to now, do I?
) (koenig cyberlink.ch). His English
) is fluent.
I gathered that from his article.
) His first name is Peter, but he is not the nephew
) of the pope
) either.
Did I say he was?
Is this an argument that is supposed to be somehow relevant to
what I said?
If you are trying to make a comparison between your silly
statment and my wonderings, there is none. I do not think it at
all unreasonable to *wonder* if persons with *both* the same
surname and the same family name, *and* similar interests (Peter
Koenig the farmer, and a Peter Koenig who is possibly associated
with a Botanical Garden -- I was unable to follow up on this
lead since we were having local internet problems while I tried
to do so, and later tonight when I again tried to follow this up
found that the Botanical Garden site wasn't coming up this time)
and who are both supporting the anthroposophical contentions
about Steiner and OTO might not be one and the same person.
) Did you ever check a German directory, let's say of
) Berlin? Zurich
) is not much better.
Clear as muck. What is your point?
) ) Ever since I first saw this article, I wondered if this were
) not
) ) the same Peter Koenig, particularly since it is such a
) whitewash
) ) of Rudolf Steiner.
)
) Now this is a strange argumentation:
It is no argumentation at all: in English, "I wonder" does not
mean the same thing as "I believe" or "I know" or "I conclude".
This is why I *asked* if anyone knew the answer.
) Because it is a
) "whitewash", Koenig has
) to be part of the Anthropop conspiracy.
So say *you* and not I.
) Dietrich Eckart used
) the same twist
Twist?
) (see my other posting)
I cannot wait...
) when he called Steiner a Jew because
) his writings
) smelled of "Talmud".
Please cite your source (not that I doubt you can come up with
one, but without it your statement is heresay and, despite your
obvious prejudices against those who critique Steiner, we really
would like to have an opportunity to know and read that which
you claim supports your allegations).
) Great!
Just because Dietrich Eckart despised Steiner (in your opinion)
does not mean that Steiner rejected Dietrich Eckart or his
ideas.
Echo loved Narcissus, but that did not logically necessitate
that Narcissus love her back -- in fact, he despised her.
There is little doubt that Nietzsche would have had little
respect for Steiner, but that does not prevent Steiner from
applauding Nietzsche, apart from his nihilism.
) This says it all, "Lucky". Good night.
That's unfortunate, since *your* argument fails.
Luke
P.S.
I think you may have been misleading us, Sean Slovan, since
Peter R. Konig does seem to have at least anthroposophical
connections per the following web pages I found (BTW, a web page
I pulled up two days ago linking Peter R. Koenig to a Botanical
Garden somewhere has failed to surface this time around--I was
unable to save the web page because of local internet problems
and, silly me, I presumed it would be there the next time I
looked.)
(A) http://www.dplanet.ch/users/prkoenig/books/fl.htm
is an interview with Peter R. Koenig, in German. I used
freetranslation.com, but the thing is far too long and I'm too
tired to attempt to read much more than the first couple of
lines.
The title is "Peter R. Koenig, Undercover Agent" -- and I don't
think they mean the FBI, CIA or Interpol kind -- subtitled
"Statement out of 'expedition against Rudolf Steiner'" (which I
think is more intelligibly translated as "Excerpts [from Peter
R. Koenig's book] 'Witchhunt against Rudolf Steiner'"
In the interview is mentioned a book: "The Black Book on
Anthroposophy" by Bruder Grandt: by "black book" I understand is
meant a book revealing the dark underside of anthroposophy (with
apologies to Tom Mellett). In this book was made the statement
that "for only a couple of weeks in 1909 was Rudolf Steiner a
member of the Ordo Templis Orientis". Peter R. Koenig refutes
this statement.
However, when one goes to the bottom of the page of the
"interview" and clicks on the hyperlink "home page", one is lead
to http://www.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/, which is the homepage of
The Ordo Templi Orientis Phenomenon, hosted by none other than
Peter R. Koenig.
A neat little circle: analogous to circular reasoning we are
expected to swallow?
(B) http://www.resurrektionarium.de/forum/
is a website named "Joseph Beuys Plexus" (Beuys, of course, was
an anthroposophist, a former Luftwaffe pilot (As I recall), and
a world reknowned artist for whom I have myself a certain amount
of respect).
And the "Solar Plexis" in eurythmy (if I can get the memory into
focus without too many obscuring cobwebs clinging to it) is
considered to be the center that holds the human being together
between heaven and earth.
Its homepage (http://www.resurrektionarium.de/forum/)
uses an anthroposophical font at the bottoom of the page that is
recognizable to any former Waldorfer.
Lots of anthroposophical references here.
And lots of conspiracy theories here, too, Mr. Slovan: methinks
thou dost protest too much! [Pot Kettle Black, as Debra likes to
say...except *this* kettle stands innocent of the charge.]
This conspiracist, anthroposophical website gets a rather
enthusiastic endorsement from Mr. Peter R. Koenig (with the
email address you claim is the correct one for the author
regarding OTO and Steiner), who posted the comment on January
28, 1999 "This is a completely gorgeous site."
I copy and paste the webpage as translated by
freetranslation.com:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-
commentary
-----------------------------------------------------------------
[ Answers ] [ your answer ] [ forum www. resurrektionarium. de ]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Abgeschickt of peter-r. king at the 28 January, 1999 around
23:08:17
that is however an entire dear website
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Per Worldlingo "abgeschickt" translates as "sent".
Luke
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2537.3 ---------------
From: "truth matters" (truthmatters unbounded.com)
Subject: Re: US, Ford and Nazi Germany
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 22:37:28 -0400
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http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/naziism.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2537.4 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject:
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 20:31:31 -0700 (PDT)
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Many list members may already be aware of this interesting
article published at
http://www.teol.lu.se/theologicum/student/papers/ted.html
as I have seen references to the information contained in the
excerpt below elsewhere. The article is an interesting one;
although I do not have time to finish it tonight, it seems
intelligent, balanced and lacking in venom or vitriol.
"From the 1920¥s Hitler¥s commandos ruthlessly attacked and
killed adherents of Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Freemasons and
others who shared the same occult doctrines; he banned their
groups from the Third Reich, and publicly denounced occultists
such as Rudolf Steiner and Allister Crowley. This can be easily
understood, however, in terms of perceived threat; Hitler simply
recognized occult power in each of the banned groups which could
be used to rival his own "'Thule Society", and eliminated them
from the field. Those occult groups who presented no threat he
left alone. It is also possible that Hitler was determined to
keep the Thule Society¥s roots hidden from the general public;
the groups and individuals he targeted for elimination were
those who knew of those roots (and who might disclose him). This
would explain why the Nazis burned every available book of Thule
Society founder Rudolf Heinrich von Sebottendorf, which spoke of
those roots, why they confiscated all the books of the occult
groups they outlawed, and why Rudolf Hess¥s defection to the
England in 1941 prompted Hitler to outlaw all remaining
occultists in the Third Reich, such as astrologers, mediums -
even parlor magicians."
--I do not know if I agree with the inference about Rudolf
Hess's defection. I rather suspect he defected *because* he
knew he had lost Hitler's favor. However, this does not
necessarily change the conclusion that as a result of whatever
the precipitating event(s) that lead to Hess's fall from grace,
Hitler generalized his mistrust and disfavor to all occultists
and occultism outside Nazism.
Luke
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2537.5 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: post-CAN cult wars
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 19:52:50 -0700
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from the San Francisco Chronicle
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/05/01/MN88385.DTL
Combatants in Cult War Attempt Reconciliation
Peacemaking conference is held near Seattle
Don Lattin, Chronicle Religion Writer
Monday, May 1, 2000
Seattle -- They're calling it the ``Camp David of the cult wars.''
Leaders from both factions in the decades-long dispute over danger
posed by new religious movements came together over the weekend at a
woodsy retreat center on the shores of Puget Sound.
There were a few screaming matches, and a bit of the old backbiting
and rumormongering, but it was a largely peaceful gathering of
defectors, devotees, heartbroken families and assorted cult experts.
``We've reached the point where we're no longer throwing bricks,''
said J. Gordon Melton, director of the Institute for the Study of
American Religion in Santa Barbara, and someone long labeled as an
``apologist'' by leaders of the ``alarmist'' anti-cult movement.
Melton was among those attending a weekend conference at the Dumas
Bay Centre south of Seattle, sponsored by the American Family
Foundation and titled ``Cults and the Millennium.''
Since its founding 25 years ago, the foundation has been mostly
identified with the cult watchdog faction that believes authoritarian
and ``totalist'' groups -- whether they're organized around religion,
politics or psychotherapy -- pose a real danger to their members and
to the broader society.
They've had little to do with the other camp in the cult wars --
scholars and current cult members who argue that most religious sects
are relatively harmless and that the crusade against them violates
constitutional guarantees of religious freedom.
Anti-cult activists warned of ``brainwashing'' and ``mind control,''
while their opponents tell tales of violent kidnapping and coercive
``deprogramming.''
Fighting in the cult wars may have reached a peak three years ago,
when lawyers and other individuals linked to the Church of
Scientology, one of the nation's most controversial and powerful new
religious movements, sued the Cult Awareness Network into bankruptcy.
The network, which had been one of the most outspoken anti-cult
groups, eventually had its name, files and hotline taken over in a
campaign dominated by members of the Church of Scientology.
Today, those who call the Cult Awareness Network hotline actually get
an information and referral service run by the Foundation for
Religious Freedom, a group linked to the Church of Scientology.
``That's a form of deception,'' said Herbert Rosedale, president of
the American Family Foundation.
Among those working the crowd at the weekend conference was Nancy
O'Meara, a longtime Church of Scientology member and corporate
treasurer of the Foundation for Religious Freedom. She insists that
the ``new'' Cult Awareness Network provides a valuable service for
family members who call the hotline concerned about relatives who
have joined a cult.
``If someone calls and complains about the Hare Krishnas, we can go
and talk to the Hare Krishnas,'' O'Meara said. ``We want to help
families resolve their differences.''
O'Meara said their hotline has gotten about 10,000 calls since they
took it over three years ago, with about 75 percent of calls coming
from people concerned about fundamentalist Christian sects. She said
the ``new'' Cult Awareness Network is ``completely independent'' from
the Church of Scientology, although ``individual Scientologists
support its activities.''
She and other Scientologists at the conference were not included as
featured speakers, O'Meara noted, ``but at least they let us attend.''
Leading the reconciliation between the two cult camps were Michael
Langone, a counseling psychologist and executive director of the
American Family Foundation, and Eileen Barker, a sociologist at the
London School of Economics and founder of INFORM, a British charity
that provides information about new religious movements.
They gathered four representatives from each camp for a
pre-conference peacemaking session.
``We have a lot in common, and a lot of
misconceptions about each other,'' said Barker, who has been mostly
identified with the religious freedom camp. ``There are people who
think I'm wicked for even coming here. Meanwhile, they (American
Family Foundation) have been getting flak for inviting me.''
Barke