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-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2533 --------------
001 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Luke
002 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Admin: Re: Luke
003 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Waldorf/public schools
004 - "Sarina McDonald" (pandor - Subject: Luke
005 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Subject: Luke
006 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: Admin: Re: Luke
007 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: Subject: Luke
008 - Rechomba cs.com - Re: Admin:Re:Luke
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2533.1 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Luke
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 22:18:40 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Rechomba cs.com wrote:
) In a message dated 8/31/00 3:39:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
) luckylukedefrance yahoo.com writes:
)
) ) ) BS is BS. First it was foul smelling and now it's sweet.
) ) ) Ray
) )
) ) I am afraid this is too cryptic for me: can you more
) directly
) ) express yourself?
) )
) ) Luke
)
) You called BS on Peter's remark towards Paulina about her not
) being informed
) because she mispelled the author's names. And you were
) absolutely correct
) in doing so (BS smelled foul).
no one and nothing is absolutely correct
) Now that you find Paulina
) personally offensive, you apologize to Peter for your remark
It is not only the way she treated me but also her vicious
diatribe against Deborah Kelly that I was responding to. Not to
mention her patently elitist habit (and a common
anthroposophical trait) of cozying up to authority figures
(i.e., Dan). I was tired of her private conversations aimed at
Dan taking up list space and time, while she plainly expected
everyone else to mutely listen and be awed and dazzled. Not to
mention her stereotypical choleric posturings. Etc. Over time
everything about her began to reek of everything I had come to
dislike and despair of in anthroposophists. In this context, I
began to see Peter's zinging her that way as giving her a dose
of her own medicine rather than the pettiness I had originally
attributed to it. Peter does not seem to be a petty person.
In other words, context does matter: as time went on I began to
see more of the context in which Peter had made his remark, and
that changed the way I interpretted it.
Further consideration leads me to think that perhaps Paulina is
a Waldorf victim, or a victim of anthroposophy, depending on
whether she was raised in anthroposophy or became enmeshed in
the anthropop culture as a result of training in Waldorf at an
early age. It is safe to say that her behaviors and misbehaviors
are commonly found in anthroposopy and are clearly molded by
anthroposophical beliefs and encouraged by the anthroposophical
culture. That is not to excuse her: she chooses to act in this
malicious and destructive way. But it illustrates one of the
more tragic consequences of participation in anthroposophy: the
distortion and crippling of personality.
)and you're eating the
) BS yourself
I don't see it that way.
) (must smell sweet).
) When you call someone on BS, you recognise their statement
) for what it is
) regardless of your disposition to the person it is directed
) towards or to
) the person responsible for the statement.
Exactly: which is why I had the diatribe against Deborah Kelly
in mind, even though I have my issues with her.
I for one would
) expect you and
) others on this list to call BS on any lame criticisms I may
) put forth.
It's a deal!
) As for ad hominem, you never really addressed Paulina's
) criticisms of your
) remarks.
Because I considered it to be a waste of time; I have only so
much time I can devote to this list and I have to be selective
about what I respond to. I do not respond to baiting and set
ups, destructive conversations and the like.
Sometimes I do not respond because it would take too much time
to do so properly, or someone else has done so adequately, etc.
Also, I may later respond to parts of the post when I have more
time, have gathered my thoughts, etc.
It is my decision and my choice when, how and whether I respond.
)Instead you blew it on diatribe.
I don't think so. As I said, I think her own words condemn her.
Judgeing by the
) majority of your
) posts, I was expecting an informed and well argued rebuttal.
Thank you. I am a multidimensional person, though, and will not
always behave according to type.
)
) Constructively yours,
) Ray
Thanks for the elaboration.
Luke
P.S.
BTW, why was my response to Peter "calling him on his BS"
whereas my response to Paulina was a diatribe?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2533.2 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: Re: Luke
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 00:01:59 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009010520.WAA23111 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009010520.WAA23111 lists1.best.com)
Luke and Ray, I think that's enough squabbling. It really isn't going
to be helpful to someone who reads the archives a year from now.
Let's get back on topic.
Thanks, Dan Dugan
Moderator.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2533.3 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/public schools
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 23:55:27 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200008301933.MAA06502 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200008301933.MAA06502 lists1.best.com)
Deborah, you pointed us to the Lakota declaration of war against
new-age apprpriation of Native spirituality,
)http://nativenet.uthscsa.edu/archive/nl/9308/0227.html.
) There is also a lot of information re: New Agers at
)http://www.dickshovel.com
Thanks.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2533.4 ---------------
From: "Sarina McDonald" (pandora aa.net)
Subject: Subject: Luke
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 08:55:27 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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charset="Windows-1252"
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References: (200009010510.WAA18728 lists1.best.com)
Ray wrote:
)As for ad hominem, you never really addressed Paulina's criticisms of your
)remarks. Instead you blew it on diatribe. Judging by the majority of your
)posts, I was expecting an informed and well argued rebuttal.
As was I.
I have been reading these recent digests with a growing sense of disbelief,
since Luke, a relative newcomer, seems to be making some pretty huge
assumptions about Paulina's character based on very little personal
knowledge. I may not share her enthusiasm for Anthroposophy, but her posts
and our off-list e-mails have never led me to believe that she was anything
less than a highly competent teacher.
I'm no fan of behaviorism as an end-all be-all, but it does have it's place
in the teacher's "tool-kit:" it is just one of many tools, none of which
should be used exclusively or in all situations. To take Paulina's comments
and twist her image into that of a megalomaniac, power-mad teacher is quite
a stretch. It makes me think she and Luke are having one of those
conversations that Diana and I used to have, where we are reacting more to
our own issues than to what the other has said.
One other comment: those of us who have been on the list awhile know that
Paulina's MS sometimes makes re-typing difficult; when she makes a spelling
mistake it has always been assumed that she is typing the best that she can.
I didn't want to speak up for her before, figuring if she wanted to inform
Luke that he was out of line she would have done so. But I feel that it's
pretty warranted to say something now. Spelling is an old issue, Luke:
please drop it.
Respectfully,
Sarina
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2533.5 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Subject: Luke
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 09:32:27 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Sarina McDonald (pandora aa.net) wrote:
Spelling is an old
) issue, Luke:
) please drop it.
)
) Respectfully,
) Sarina
)
I never raised it. Read more carefully. My issues were with
abusive behavior, and MS is no excuse.
Dan has asked us to drop this issue: you claim to be
"respectful" but your actions indicate otherwise.
I only respond to defend myself. If any other "breakthroughs"
occur despite Dan's admonition, I will not respond but it will
not be because I tacitly agree or have no defense.
Luke
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2533.6 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Admin: Re: Luke
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 21:22:59 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009010520.WAA23111 lists1.best.com)
(200009010815.BAA09880 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009010815.BAA09880 lists1.best.com)
)(x-flowed)Luke and Ray, I think that's enough squabbling. It really
)isn't going
)to be helpful to someone who reads the archives a year from now.
)Let's get back on topic.
)
)Thanks, Dan Dugan
)Moderator.
)(/x-flowed)
There you go again, Dan.
Isn't the studious psychological profiling of people whose brains,
thinking, affect, emotions, personality, politics, and lives are
affected by SWA woo-woo your cup of tea, Dan?
And isn't defending one's position against attack, as Luke does,
reasonable? Including defending against ad hominems?
Spend too much time hugging Eugene Schwartz and Bob Tolz out East at
Sunbridge Waldorf Teachers College, did you Dan? Nice people and warm
human beings, no doubt.
But they're fucked in the head by SWA and irrationality. Something
must've rubbed off on you, Dan, with all that hugging and bonhomie.
I'd say leave Luke and Ray to duke out that issue -- even heatedly.
You want to play ringmaster to your circus again, take on someone
closer to your size, weight, age, and pedantry for their continuing
ad hominems.
(That's me I'm talking about, folks, in case any of the newcomers
didn't recognise me from my reputation around here or reading the
interminable ad hominem warnings from the ringmaster to me in the
archives.)
I think people will be able to find the sweet wood of
deconstruction's Louisville Sluggers despite the dead leaves of ad
hominem on the ground in the archives a year from now, Dan.
Deconstructing and exposing the evils and nonsense of SWA is NOT a
constructive activity, Dan. It's not supposed to be.
So if you want to yield to Ray and all the other SWA apologists and
make your list one which only entertains "constructive criticism",
then you better start unsubscribing people. The ones that are still
here, that is, after being rubbished so thoroughly by the SWA
political correctness police you allow free rein here, Dan.
Deconstruction's and exposure's purpose is not to make SWA better or
more honest or more open, nor to play PC games.
It's to make sure SWA can't get any worse or more successful
according to its irrationalist, fascist designs on the children,
economies and politics of the world, boring from within, from the
most vulnerable, the young, and the small communities.
Remind me, Dan, which side are you on again?
Or would you like me to quote all the nice things you've said about SWA?
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2533.7 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Subject: Luke
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 08:50:18 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009010510.WAA18728 lists1.best.com)
(200009011552.IAA16350 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009011552.IAA16350 lists1.best.com)
)Luke:
)please drop it.
)
)Respectfully,
)Sarina
Sarina:
Please stop trying to impose Steiner/Waldorf/Anthroposophical (SWA)
apologists' political correctness on the discussion.
Luke's criticisms of Paulina's spelling, excused by her MS, are not
the issue here. The issue is that people use such minor gaffes and
faux pas as Luke's (about the spelling) to attack their wider
criticisms about the effects of SWA on people who come into contact
with it, as demonstrated by their behaviour, words, and beliefs
expounded on this list.
Luke is doing a credible and arguable deconstruction of Paulina's
experience. That's fair, because she is an SWA apologist, while
seeming to be critical of some aspects. I have remarked before on the
similarity between this behaviour and mentality of hers (and others
on the list) and the behaviour and mentality of cult-survivors who
defend organisations they have left.
Kinda like me having a soft spot for the U.S. Army and boot camp, and
defending the honourable profession of arms, even if, intellectually
and morally, I am totally opposed to militarism, military authority
and totalitarian abuse of power.
It's interesting that I, as a parent survivor of SWA, do not have any
such warm feelings or soft spot for anything SWA.
My almost 10 years now of having children in a Steiner school and of
fighting to get them out, preserve their lives and minds, and study
that has convinced me SWA is a wrong, bad, coordinated and planned
fascist attack on the rationality of the future and its economic,
social and political shape.
The character, personality, and beliefs of both sides in this issue
are fair game for discussion here, along with the ideas, despite
attempts to squelch the vitality of criticism by political
correctness police like you, Sarina, and even the moderator.
Please argue those issues, Sarina; don't tell Luke -- or anyone else
-- to stop.
Respectfully,
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2533.8 ---------------
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: Admin:Re:Luke
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 00:51:48 EDT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 9/1/00 4:39:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mkopp xtra.co.nz
writes:
) So if you want to yield to Ray and all the other SWA apologists and
) make your list one which only entertains "constructive criticism"...
I see I have joined the ranks of SWA apologists. I am deeply hurt Michael.
Perhaps I should seek the counsel of an anthro shrink to realize where and
when I strayed from The Path. Get some past life regression therapy so that I
can take the Luciferian scales from my eyes and see my skepticism and
philosophical abhorrence to anthroposophy for what it really is: denial.
(One day later, after counseling)
(Upon much introspection and palm sweating) OK, I CONFESS: I WANT TO EXUME
STEINER'S REMAINS, PLACE HIM IN A SHRINE IN THE CENTER OF MY SECRET
BIODYNAMIC GARDEN (to attract cosmic forces and keep the gophers away), SELL
THE PRODUCE AT A PREMIUM AND DONATE IT ALL TO AWSNA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whew, what a release! I didn't know coming out of the anthro closet would be
so...so karmically satisfying.
Thanks for the push.
Anthroposophically Yours,
Ray
PS: To all SWA people out there, I apologize for the error of my evil,
critical ways. I SEE THE LIGHT!!!
,
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2533 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2534 --------------
001 - "Nora Brinker" (nora.brin - Michael Kopp - re online debating
002 - "Nora Brinker" (nora.brin - Re: Michael Kopp - re online debating - CORRECTION
003 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
004 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - OTO and Rudolf Steiner
005 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Michael Kopp - re online debating - CORRECTION
006 - "Nora Brinker" (nora.brin - Re: Michael Kopp - re online debating - CORRECTION
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2534.1 ---------------
From: "Nora Brinker" (nora.brinker wtal.de)
Subject: Michael Kopp - re online debating
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 12:50:42 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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References: (200009010510.WAA18728 lists1.best.com)(200009011552.IAA16350 lists1.best.com) (200009012053.NAA01998 lists1.best.com)
I am new to this group and so far only lurking, as I was expecting more
people - like me - with their own Waldorf school experience (as opposed to
being parents of Waldorf children). I am, however, not a newcomer to online
discussion groups. Speaking out the following observations will get me into
trouble but here they are nevertheless.
1. It is right that people use minor gaffes and faux pas to discredit the
opinions and ideas of a fellow participant. The oldest trick from the
demagogue's book.
2. One will always win in a discussion group if one claims victim status of
any sort if the discussion group is dominated by Americans. Misspellings of
proprietary names IS sloppy and an indication that the writer is not very
well informed, may he suffer from a handicap or not (whereas bad typing
isn't necessarily).
3. The character, personality, and beliefs of both sides in any issue ARE
fair game for discussion, along with the ideas and opinions. Both are
inseparable.
3a. Another sideswipe aimed at Americans here: I have found that a lot of
them find the blunt utterance of an idea or opinion without endless
relativations, niceties, pc-isms and euphemisms objectionable and thusly
don't listen to the gist of the message once they've found it not polite.
That is counter-productive to any real discussion.
3b. I have found in most discussion groups that it seems to be difficult to
abstract from personal experience. For example meet an avid pro-choicer and
she will most probably have had a child by AI or another fertility problem.
Disclaimer: Most Americans I have met in real life are as worldly, have an
equally broad horizon and are often more cosmopolitan than any European I
have met. I guess that the observations outlined above apply mainly to cyber
communication, although why that should be so, I can only guess. But as this
form of communication becomes more and more important, I thought I better
make a point of it.
I find it most objectionable that grown-up people who have done nothing but
uttering a rather blunt statement are reproached by their fellow posters or
the monitor. As to the latter, I think monitoring is generally necessary but
for the same reasons it should be restricted to booting somebody who is
obviously abusive. I don't think grown-up people need a cyber-nanny.
Besides, todays pc-isms are tomorrows outrage and vice versa, so why bother?
(Apart from that, my very personal problem with that sort of communication
is, that I, although I am fairly literate in English, very often simply
don't understand what a self-consciously pc sort of person is trying to
say.) To cut it short, if one doesn't like a person's posts, one doesn't
need to open them. Isn't cyber great!?!
To contribute just a little bit to the original Waldorf topic, I am amazed
at the mixing of New-Ageism and Anthroposophy in the states. Things like,
for example, yoga, meditation, or - heavens forbid - tarot reading,
shamanism etc. would be anathema to Anthroposophists in Germany. All this
has nothing to do with Steiner's philosophy and therefore doesn't exist. At
least that was the case at my time and as far as I know things haven't
changed that much. The rule of thumb "the farther one gets away from
Stuttgart, the more rigid the teaching is" doesn't seem to apply. Btw. I
personally find both variants equally unpalatable.
NB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Kopp" (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
To: (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: Subject: Luke
) )Luke:
) )please drop it.
) )
) )Respectfully,
) )Sarina
)
)
) Sarina:
)
) Please stop trying to impose Steiner/Waldorf/Anthroposophical (SWA)
) apologists' political correctness on the discussion.
)
) Luke's criticisms of Paulina's spelling, excused by her MS, are not
) the issue here. The issue is that people use such minor gaffes and
) faux pas as Luke's (about the spelling) to attack their wider
) criticisms about the effects of SWA on people who come into contact
) with it, as demonstrated by their behaviour, words, and beliefs
) expounded on this list.
)
) Luke is doing a credible and arguable deconstruction of Paulina's
) experience. That's fair, because she is an SWA apologist, while
) seeming to be critical of some aspects. I have remarked before on the
) similarity between this behaviour and mentality of hers (and others
) on the list) and the behaviour and mentality of cult-survivors who
) defend organisations they have left.
)
) Kinda like me having a soft spot for the U.S. Army and boot camp, and
) defending the honourable profession of arms, even if, intellectually
) and morally, I am totally opposed to militarism, military authority
) and totalitarian abuse of power.
)
) It's interesting that I, as a parent survivor of SWA, do not have any
) such warm feelings or soft spot for anything SWA.
)
) My almost 10 years now of having children in a Steiner school and of
) fighting to get them out, preserve their lives and minds, and study
) that has convinced me SWA is a wrong, bad, coordinated and planned
) fascist attack on the rationality of the future and its economic,
) social and political shape.
)
) The character, personality, and beliefs of both sides in this issue
) are fair game for discussion here, along with the ideas, despite
) attempts to squelch the vitality of criticism by political
) correctness police like you, Sarina, and even the moderator.
)
) Please argue those issues, Sarina; don't tell Luke -- or anyone else
) -- to stop.
)
)
) Respectfully,
)
) Cheers from Godzone,
)
) Michael Kopp
) Wellington, New Zealand
)
)
)
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2534.2 ---------------
From: "Nora Brinker" (nora.brinker wtal.de)
Subject: Re: Michael Kopp - re online debating - CORRECTION
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 12:56:55 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
) For example meet an avid pro-choicer and
) she will most probably have had a child by AI or another fertility
problem.
)
That should read "pro-lifer", of course! Sorry!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nora Brinker" (nora.brinker wtal.de)
To: (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 12:50 PM
Subject: Michael Kopp - re online debating
) I am new to this group and so far only lurking, as I was expecting more
) people - like me - with their own Waldorf school experience (as opposed to
) being parents of Waldorf children). I am, however, not a newcomer to
online
) discussion groups. Speaking out the following observations will get me
into
) trouble but here they are nevertheless.
)
) 1. It is right that people use minor gaffes and faux pas to discredit the
) opinions and ideas of a fellow participant. The oldest trick from the
) demagogue's book.
)
) 2. One will always win in a discussion group if one claims victim status
of
) any sort if the discussion group is dominated by Americans. Misspellings
of
) proprietary names IS sloppy and an indication that the writer is not very
) well informed, may he suffer from a handicap or not (whereas bad typing
) isn't necessarily).
)
) 3. The character, personality, and beliefs of both sides in any issue ARE
) fair game for discussion, along with the ideas and opinions. Both are
) inseparable.
)
) 3a. Another sideswipe aimed at Americans here: I have found that a lot of
) them find the blunt utterance of an idea or opinion without endless
) relativations, niceties, pc-isms and euphemisms objectionable and thusly
) don't listen to the gist of the message once they've found it not polite.
) That is counter-productive to any real discussion.
)
) 3b. I have found in most discussion groups that it seems to be difficult
to
) abstract from personal experience. For example meet an avid pro-choicer
and
) she will most probably have had a child by AI or another fertility
problem.
)
) Disclaimer: Most Americans I have met in real life are as worldly, have an
) equally broad horizon and are often more cosmopolitan than any European I
) have met. I guess that the observations outlined above apply mainly to
cyber
) communication, although why that should be so, I can only guess. But as
this
) form of communication becomes more and more important, I thought I better
) make a point of it.
)
) I find it most objectionable that grown-up people who have done nothing
but
) uttering a rather blunt statement are reproached by their fellow posters
or
) the monitor. As to the latter, I think monitoring is generally necessary
but
) for the same reasons it should be restricted to booting somebody who is
) obviously abusive. I don't think grown-up people need a cyber-nanny.
) Besides, todays pc-isms are tomorrows outrage and vice versa, so why
bother?
) (Apart from that, my very personal problem with that sort of communication
) is, that I, although I am fairly literate in English, very often simply
) don't understand what a self-consciously pc sort of person is trying to
) say.) To cut it short, if one doesn't like a person's posts, one doesn't
) need to open them. Isn't cyber great!?!
)
) To contribute just a little bit to the original Waldorf topic, I am amazed
) at the mixing of New-Ageism and Anthroposophy in the states. Things like,
) for example, yoga, meditation, or - heavens forbid - tarot reading,
) shamanism etc. would be anathema to Anthroposophists in Germany. All this
) has nothing to do with Steiner's philosophy and therefore doesn't exist.
At
) least that was the case at my time and as far as I know things haven't
) changed that much. The rule of thumb "the farther one gets away from
) Stuttgart, the more rigid the teaching is" doesn't seem to apply. Btw. I
) personally find both variants equally unpalatable.
)
) NB
)
) ----- Original Message -----
) From: "Michael Kopp" (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
) To: (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
) Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 10:50 PM
) Subject: Re: Subject: Luke
)
)
) ) )Luke:
) ) )please drop it.
) ) )
) ) )Respectfully,
) ) )Sarina
) )
) )
) ) Sarina:
) )
) ) Please stop trying to impose Steiner/Waldorf/Anthroposophical (SWA)
) ) apologists' political correctness on the discussion.
) )
) ) Luke's criticisms of Paulina's spelling, excused by her MS, are not
) ) the issue here. The issue is that people use such minor gaffes and
) ) faux pas as Luke's (about the spelling) to attack their wider
) ) criticisms about the effects of SWA on people who come into contact
) ) with it, as demonstrated by their behaviour, words, and beliefs
) ) expounded on this list.
) )
) ) Luke is doing a credible and arguable deconstruction of Paulina's
) ) experience. That's fair, because she is an SWA apologist, while
) ) seeming to be critical of some aspects. I have remarked before on the
) ) similarity between this behaviour and mentality of hers (and others
) ) on the list) and the behaviour and mentality of cult-survivors who
) ) defend organisations they have left.
) )
) ) Kinda like me having a soft spot for the U.S. Army and boot camp, and
) ) defending the honourable profession of arms, even if, intellectually
) ) and morally, I am totally opposed to militarism, military authority
) ) and totalitarian abuse of power.
) )
) ) It's interesting that I, as a parent survivor of SWA, do not have any
) ) such warm feelings or soft spot for anything SWA.
) )
) ) My almost 10 years now of having children in a Steiner school and of
) ) fighting to get them out, preserve their lives and minds, and study
) ) that has convinced me SWA is a wrong, bad, coordinated and planned
) ) fascist attack on the rationality of the future and its economic,
) ) social and political shape.
) )
) ) The character, personality, and beliefs of both sides in this issue
) ) are fair game for discussion here, along with the ideas, despite
) ) attempts to squelch the vitality of criticism by political
) ) correctness police like you, Sarina, and even the moderator.
) )
) ) Please argue those issues, Sarina; don't tell Luke -- or anyone else
) ) -- to stop.
) )
) )
) ) Respectfully,
) )
) ) Cheers from Godzone,
) )
) ) Michael Kopp
) ) Wellington, New Zealand
) )
) )
) )
) )
) )
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2534.3 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 09:43:34 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Thanks to Dan, the following has already been posted but since
the forwarding process has introduced a lot of symbols that make
the text difficult to read, I am re-posting it as follows:
From:
http://www.imssdarm.org/Publications/World%20News/1999-3/prophecy8.htm
I cut and paste the following:
In its formulation and content, the program of the NSDAP
(National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei) (National
Socialist German Workers Party) was greatly influenced by
Dietrich Eckart, a Thule Society member. Madame Blavatsky,
pp.
284, 286. Members in this society, among others, were Adolf
Hitler, Rudolf Hess, Heinrich Himmler, and Hermann Gring. The
publishing arm of the Thule Society became the NSDAP partys
publishing house.
Dietrich Eckart, one of the leading members of the occult
Thule
Society, introduced Hitler to Madame Blavatskys teachings. In
December 1923, Eckart said on his deathbed: Follow Hitler! He
will dance, but I will decide on the melody. I introduced him
to
The Secret Doctrine, opened his visionary centers, and thus
gave
him the ability to make connection with the forces. Die
sanfte Verfhrung, p. 140.
I recall being given a copy of Dietrich Eckart's book on
Parzival to read by a senior anthroposophist of the WWII
generation (I believe the book was called "Parzival in 12
Pictures" or something like that). ). This book was commonly
distributed and read in anthroposophical circles.
I had no idea who Dietrich Eckart was or that he was a member
of
the Thule Society (for that matter I did not then know what
the
Thule Society was nor its significanceProbably most of the
people who thus received it had not idea either, although I am
sure the person who gave it to me *did* know.
I sent this out yesterday but it has not reached the list as
of
today (I sent it out then as "Links between Anthroposophy and
Nazism). And a second attempt today sent the browser crashing.
Luke
P.S.
The same website has the following on Rudolf Steiner:
Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925). From 1902-1913, Rudolf Steiner
was
a member and general secretary of the German branch of the
Theosophical Society. From 1902-1908, he published the
theosophical magazine Luzifer-Gnosis (Lucifer Gnosis) and
organized the theosophical congress in Munich in 1907.
Madame
Blavatsky, p. 84.
In his autobiography he wrote: During the time when I was
forming concrete views of the repeated lives on earth, I
became
acquainted with the Theosophical Movement founded by H.P.
Blavatsky.
These conversations were particularly intimate with Bertram
Keightley himself. H.P. Blavatsky livened up in these
conversations. My dear host, who had experienced so much
through
her, told me about her whole personality with its rich
spirituality.
Only in English theosophy did I find inner stability, which
originated from Blavatsky and was appropriately nurtured.
R.
Steiner, Mein Lebensgang (My Autobiography), pp. 103, 296,
297,
309.
The luciferian gnosis of the Blavatsky theosophy and the
Steiner anthroposophy are the same in this point: They give
Lucifer an indispensable position in the redemption of man.
The
luciferian gnosis is united in one thing: Lucifer/Satan is in
an
evolutionary, positive, spiritual truth. It doesnt matter
whether he is considered a person or a symbol for
materializing
forces or powers. Haack, Satan-Teufel-Luzifer
(Satan-Devil-Lucifer), pp. 44, 45.
Rudolf Steiner was an original thinker and researcher into
spirits. He didnt permit himself to be bound by the rigid
corset of the Theosophical Society but received in these
circles
very essential stimulus for his spiritual course of life,
which
for well-known reasons he wanted later to keep private.
Despite
their differences he venerated Blavatskys life work to the
end. Through his Anthroposophical Society and the Waldorf
Schools his concepts are offered to a wide public right in
Germany and Switzerland also in our day. Madame Blavatsky,
p.
88.
Every independent-thinking Christian may have his own thoughts
concerning anthroposophy, or human wisdom, as the Duden German
dictionary describes it. If believers keep a great distance
from these ideas, it is understandable.
( Cut and Pasted by Luke Miller From:
http://www.imssdarm.org/Publications/World%20News/1999-/prophecy8.htm
)
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2534.4 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 10:03:40 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
From:
http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl listserv.aol.com/msg29055.html
Luke Miller cuts and pastes the following:
(The same material is also located at
http://www.b-org.demon.nl/scn/roots/satanic-elements-1.html
which appears to be an online book of which this is a part
entitled: "The Roots of Scientology: The Satanic Elements (Part
1 of 2) by 4 ex-Scientologists".)
-----------------------------------
. OTO:
In the beginning of the 20th century, a manufacturer from
Vienna Dr. Karl
Kellner, and a German theosophist Dr. Franz Hertmann, founded a
secret occult
lodge which they named "Ordo Templi Orientis" (O.T.O.). Soon
after they were
joined by Theodore Reuss (1855-1923) who had connections with
many lodges. It
was he who led Rudolf Steiner, the founder of anthroposophy,
into such a group.
Reuss, whose lodge-name was "Brother Merlin", contacted
Aleister Crowley
in 1912, and he became a member of this additional lodge
receiving the name
"Brother Baphomet". Baphomet, the symbol of the satanic goat,
usually portrayed
as a half-human, half-goat figure, of a goat head. It is often
misinterpreted
as a symbol of witchcraft in general. (It is used by Satanists,
who worship the
devil, but is not used by neo-Pagan witches, who do not worship
the Devil.)
The origin of the name Baphomet is unclear. It may be a
corruption of
Mahomet (Mohammed). The English witchcraft historian Montague
Summers suggested
it was a combination of two Greek words, baphe and metis,
meaning "absorption
of knowledge." Baphomet has also been called the Goat of Mendes,
the Black Goat
and the Judas Goat.)
The O.T.O. developed its sexual rites quickly under Reuss
and later
broadened them under Crowley. Not long after, Crowley took over
the leadership
of the lodge. Like other secret lodges, members may not disclose
theirknowledge.
----------------------------------
http://www.b-org.demon.nl/scn/roots/satanic-elements-1.html
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2534.5 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Michael Kopp - re online debating - CORRECTION
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 10:45:31 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (200009021056.DAA22262 lists1.best.com)
)) For example meet an avid pro-choicer and
)) she will most probably have had a child by AI or another fertility
)problem.
))
)That should read "pro-lifer", of course! Sorry!
)
Interesting you should say that. Raising a child as a teen mom, I
experienced complications of that birth which left me infertile. I went on
to adopt a couple of kids.
When I see bumper stickers that promote pro-life, I always ask them how
many children they have adopted, whenever I get the chance. Generally the
answer is "None."
Being pro-choice, I want these people to put their money where their mouths
are.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2534.6 ---------------
From: "Nora Brinker" (nora.brinker wtal.de)
Subject: Re: Michael Kopp - re online debating - CORRECTION
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:59:11 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (200009021740.KAA29476 lists1.best.com)
I agree with what you say, or rather I understand it. I didn't intend,
however, to start a pro-life vs. pro-choice discussion. It was just an
example for a - sort of - lack in independent thinking I believe to exist.
It was the first example that came to my mind, not more.
NB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Debra Snell" (snell netshel.net)
To: (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: Michael Kopp - re online debating - CORRECTION
) )) For example meet an avid pro-choicer and
) )) she will most probably have had a child by AI or another fertility
) )problem.
) ))
) )That should read "pro-lifer", of course! Sorry!
) )
)
) Interesting you should say that. Raising a child as a teen mom, I
) experienced complications of that birth which left me infertile. I went on
) to adopt a couple of kids.
)
) When I see bumper stickers that promote pro-life, I always ask them how
) many children they have adopted, whenever I get the chance. Generally the
) answer is "None."
)
) Being pro-choice, I want these people to put their money where their
mouths
) are.
)
)
)
)
)
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2534 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2535 --------------
001 - "truth matters" (truthmat - Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
002 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
003 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
004 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
005 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: stereotypes
006 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2g - Re: stereotypes
007 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: stereotypes
008 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Colorado school board slams charter for bad science
009 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - awakening the will in homeless adults
010 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Waldorf consistent with African-American cultural patterns
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.1 ---------------
From: "truth matters" (truthmatters unbounded.com)
Subject: Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:40:56 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Luke Miller wrote:
) (The same material is also located at
) http://www.b-org.demon.nl/scn/roots/satanic-elements-1.html
) which appears to be an online book of which this is a part
) entitled: "The Roots of Scientology: The Satanic Elements (Part
) 1 of 2) by 4 ex-Scientologists".)
) -----------------------------------
) OTO:
) In the beginning of the 20th century, a manufacturer from
) Vienna Dr. Karl Kellner, and a German theosophist Dr. Franz
) Hertmann, founded a secret occult lodge which they named
) "Ordo Templi Orientis" (O.T.O.). Soon after they were
) joined by Theodore Reuss (1855-1923) who had connections with
) many lodges. It was he who led Rudolf Steiner, the founder
) of anthroposophy, into such a group.
) Reuss, whose lodge-name was "Brother Merlin", contacted
) Aleister Crowley in 1912, and he became a member of this
) additional lodge receiving the name "Brother Baphomet".
) Baphomet, the symbol of the satanic goat, usually portrayed
) as a half-human, half-goat figure, of a goat head. It is
) often misinterpreted as a symbol of witchcraft in general.
) (It is used by Satanists, who worship the devil, but is
) not used by neo-Pagan witches, who do not worship the Devil.)
http://www.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/steiner.htm :
'After decades of incomplete media reports and propaganda
efforts by partial parties regarding Rudolf Steiner's alleged
membership in Theodor Reuss' German lodge of the Ordo Templi
Orientis, for the first time, the archive of Rudolf Steiner's
probate opened its vault (for the book "Der Grosse Theodor Reuss Reader"), thereby giving historians the ammunition needed to
finally put the matter to rest (extant are 4 letters of Reuss
to Steiner and 21 of Reuss to Marie von Sivers. Steiner's
letters to Reuss are missing or never existed; 4 drafts of Sivers to Reuss survive. Reproduced in "Der Grosse Theodor Reuss Reader" is
the Contract, the Edict of Reuss to Steiner, and two letters
concerning Franz Hartmann.)
There is no evidence that Rudolf Steiner ever accepted anything from Theodor Reuss with the sole exception of Reuss's permission to
use the term "Misraim". There exists no evidence nor any documentation which made Steiner a member of the Ordo Templi Orientis.'
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.2 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 09:23:52 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (200009031534.IAA13157 lists1.best.com)
Truth matters wrote:
)http://www.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/steiner.htm :
)
)'After decades of incomplete media reports and propaganda
)efforts by partial parties regarding Rudolf Steiner's alleged
)membership in Theodor Reuss' German lodge of the Ordo Templi
)Orientis, for the first time, the archive of Rudolf Steiner's
)probate opened its vault (for the book "Der Grosse Theodor Reuss Reader"),
)thereby giving historians the ammunition needed to
)finally put the matter to rest
[Debra]
Interesting. Just who were the "historians" that were allowed to go in the
vault? Are you talking mainstream historians or Anthroposophical
historians? I'd guess they'd have to be mainstream historians, if they
really want to put this issue to rest. Will the Anthro Society (or whoever
has control) allow this book, "Der Grosse Theodor Reuss Reader" to be
republished? Seems to me that if opening the book could clear Steiner,
they'd be beating a path to the publisher.
[TM]
(extant are 4 letters of Reuss
)to Steiner and 21 of Reuss to Marie von Sivers.
Steiner's
)letters to Reuss are missing or never existed; 4 drafts of Sivers to Reuss
)survive. Reproduced in "Der Grosse Theodor Reuss Reader" is
)the Contract, the Edict of Reuss to Steiner, and two letters
)concerning Franz Hartmann.)
[Debra]
So were they just read by a selected few and locked back up, or are they
available for everyone to read? Sheesh, the Anthro Society must be between
a rock and a hard place. It must be hard to keep a belief system esoteric
with so many people peeling off the layers from every direction. Hope that
vault is protected by trustworthy security guards. Surely Prince Charles
can help.
How often is this vault opened?
[TM]
)There is no evidence that Rudolf Steiner ever accepted anything from
)Theodor Reuss with the sole exception of Reuss's permission to
)use the term "Misraim". There exists no evidence nor any documentation
)which made Steiner a member of the Ordo Templi Orientis.'
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.3 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 16:28:27 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Debra Snell (snell netshel.net) wrote:
) Truth matters wrote:
)
) )http://www.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/steiner.htm :
) )
You know, Peter Koenig is the name of one of the sons of
Christof Koenig, son of Karl Koenig, founder of the
anthroposophical world movement known as Camphill. I think he
lives, or for a time lived, in Australia and was a biodynamic
farmer.
Ever since I first saw this article, I wondered if this were not
the same Peter Koenig, particularly since it is such a whitewash
of Rudolf Steiner.
Does anyone know if this is the case?
Luke
P.S.
The story I heard of Steiner destroying the evidence of his
membership in OTO (his membership card, if I recall correctly)
while exclaiming something like "you can never prove I was ever
a member" sounds so like the kind of thing those who seem to
consider themselves to be "warriors for anthroposophy" do all
the time, doesn't it?
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.4 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 16:41:17 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com) wrote:
(snip)
) I recall being given a copy of Dietrich Eckart's book on
) Parzival to read by a senior anthroposophist of the WWII
) generation (I believe the book was called "Parzival in 12
) Pictures" or something like that). ). This book was commonly
) distributed and read in anthroposophical circles.
)
) I had no idea who Dietrich Eckart was or that he was a member
) of
) the Thule Society (for that matter I did not then know what
) the
) Thule Society was nor its significanceProbably most of the
) people who thus received it had not idea either, although I
) am
) sure the person who gave it to me *did* know.
(snip)
I meant to include the information that one of the reasons I
believe the individual who gave me the book to read "*did* know"
is because upon handing it to me, this person said that this
particular version of the legend of Parzival was very special
but they could not explain why this was so.
Luke
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.5 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: stereotypes
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 16:56:04 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Lisa Ercolano (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
(snip)
) Lisa: Luke, could you give us some examples of this?
(snip)
I am not ignoring your query, I intend to respond but I want to
give the response the time and thought it deserves.
I am glad you began an thread on stereotypes: anthroposophy and
waldorf is greatly concerned with ordering and controlling, and
few things are as effective a means of social and thought
control as stereotypes (a/k/a "archetypes").
Luke
__________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.6 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: stereotypes
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 20:39:03 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thanks, Luke: I realize you (like most of us here!) have a life besides the
list and that it takes time to respond to questions, queries and various
topics that might interest us!
I am very much interested in the stereotyping that goes on in Waldorf
schools vis a vis categorizing a child by "temperment," etc. My older girl
was labelled "melancholic" from the first week of preschool ... and that
view of her followed her everywhere she went, in whatever she did. I found
that when asked about this, teachers would take umbrage and go on and on
about how "the temperments are a great way of understanding the children,
etc."
As far as I could see, the "temperments" were just another way of stripping
the children of their individuality until such time as Steiner said that
they were ready to develop their individual egos or "I"s.
The most intriguing aspect of this is the way Waldorf schools advertise
themselves -- as places were each child is nurtured and respected for who he
or she is. Ha!
Please, Luke, tell us more -- whenever you have the time.
Lisa
)From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)Subject: Re: stereotypes
)Date: Sun, Sep 3, 2000, 7:56 PM
)
)
) --- Lisa Ercolano (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
) (snip)
)) Lisa: Luke, could you give us some examples of this?
) (snip)
)
) I am not ignoring your query, I intend to respond but I want to
) give the response the time and thought it deserves.
)
) I am glad you began an thread on stereotypes: anthroposophy and
) waldorf is greatly concerned with ordering and controlling, and
) few things are as effective a means of social and thought
) control as stereotypes (a/k/a "archetypes").
)
) Luke
)
) __________________________________________________
) Do You Yahoo!?
) Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
) http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.7 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: stereotypes
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 18:35:41 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (200009040040.RAA08741 lists1.best.com)
[Lisa]
)I am very much interested in the stereotyping that goes on in Waldorf
)schools vis a vis categorizing a child by "temperment," etc. My older girl
)was labelled "melancholic" from the first week of preschool ... and that
)view of her followed her everywhere she went, in whatever she did. I found
)that when asked about this, teachers would take umbrage and go on and on
)about how "the temperments are a great way of understanding the children,
)etc."
[Debra]
Max was labeled sanguine until he began to complain about his classroom and
how the teacher wasn't teaching him anything, when he was proptly switched
to 'melancholic'. His teacher advised me about his complaining. She said,
"Oh melancholics love a woeful story. When he complains to you, you should
tell him a story about yourself that is very sad. That is a good way to
comfort this kind of child." Luckily I didn't fall for that one.
[Lisa]
)As far as I could see, the "temperments" were just another way of stripping
)the children of their individuality until such time as Steiner said that
)they were ready to develop their individual egos or "I"s.
[Debra]
In Max's case, it was a good attempt at a diversion from having to deal
with the out of control classroom and woeful teacher.
(Blame the victim)
[Lisa]
)The most intriguing aspect of this is the way Waldorf schools advertise
)themselves -- as places were each child is nurtured and respected for who he
)or she is. Ha!
[Debra]
Boy it sure sounded good at the time, didn't it? A new word keeps coming up
for me these days when thinking of Waldorf. It is "fraud."
[Lisa]
)Please, Luke, tell us more -- whenever you have the time.
)
[Debra]
Yes, please do.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.8 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Colorado school board slams charter for bad science
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 17:11:44 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
The article below shows that a school board can be awakened to the
fact that a charter school may have an agenda at cross-purposes to
the public good. There are parallel possibilities for Waldorf
charters.
The issue in this case was evolution; I'm not posting the article in
order to start a creation/evolution debate here, please. There are
supporters of PLANS on both sides of the that debate.
-Dan Dugan
***
By a unanimous 7-0 vote, the Board of Education of the Poudre School
District (Fort Collins, CO) Monday night declared that Liberty Common
School (LCS) had breached its contract as a charter school when the latter
adopted a policy that prohibited teaching human evolution and failed to
emphasize the importance of "macro-evolution" (speciation).
The Board vote was in response to a complaint filed by Linda Rosa and Larry
Sarner on behalf of their daughter, Emily Rosa, who is an eighth-grader at
the school. They complained LCS's policy denied Emily a full education
including a complete discussion of evolution. As a charter school, the
school had obtained its charter by pledging to teach the full Core
Knowledge Sequence (CKS), "supplemented and aligned" with the Benchmarks
for Science Literacy of the American Association for the Advancement of
Science (AAAS), both of which have emphases on evolution, including human
evolution. Rosa and Sarner had protested that the anti-evolution policy
was a "bait and switch" and went back on the pledge given when LCS was
granted its charter.
The Board agreed that the policy violated the contract to fully teach CKS
in evolution. The resolution was adopted after a one-hour closed door
session where the full Board heard from a "fact-finding subcommittee". The
fact-finders cited the work of AAAS President Stephen Jay Gould which
explained that a curriculum that included only "micro-evolution" (only
intra-species change is considered and taught) was in and of itself
inadequate. They also had the LCS policy reviewed by the head of a
committee of the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) that had reacted to the
Kansas State Board of Education's recent decision not to require the
teaching of evolution in that state. Dr. Gerald Skoog said his committee
had recommended that NAS "disassociate itself" from the Kansas decision as
being "contrary to modern science." After reviewing the LCS policy,
Scholl declared that policy "paralleled" that of Kansas and warranted "the
same disassociation".
The Board subcommittee, which included a lawyer, had also said that it
deemed several provisions of the policy to be unconstitutional. It singled
out that part of the policy which declared some part of evolutionary theory
would not be taught because it might lead to religious discussions in the
classroom. "To refuse to teach parts of evolution because it might offend
the religious beliefs of some students is contrary to the constitution and
the policy of this District," declared subcommittee members Garth Rogers
and William Wawro. Two other Board members repeated this reason before
voting on the final resolution.
One Board member noted the fears of some in the community and elsewhere
that charter schools "are private schools in public school clothing."
Robert Bacon said that it was thought "other forces might take over" a
charter school, but the Board's decision would allay these fears by showing
that there is accountability in the system.
Board members also dismissed LCS's contention that it did not have to teach
some evolutionary theory because it is not required to do so by Colorado
State Model Content Standards (which deliberately ignores human evolution)
or Poudre School District requirements. "That it's not mentioned [in those
standards] is not sufficient reason for not teaching human evolution or the
origin of life," said Rogers. "Those policies do not restrict the teaching
of evolution as Liberty Common's does," he added.
The adopted resolution finally declared that the LCS policy was
"inappropriate and contrary to contract."
"This is a happy day for science," a gleeful Linda Rosa told reporters
afterwards. She and Sarner will return to the school's headmaster and
board of directors to push for formal repeal of the policy and for remedial
courses in evolution for their daughter and other children at the school.
-----------------------------------
Michael Shermer
Publisher
-----------------------------------
Copyright 1999 by Michael Shermer and the Skeptics Society. Copies of this
internet posting may be made and distributed in whole without further
permission. Credit: This has been another edition of SkepticMag Hotline, the
internet edition of Skeptic magazine and the cyberspace voice of the Skeptics
Society. For further information about the magazine and society, contact P.O.
Box 338, Altadena, CA 91001; 626/794-3119 (phone); 626/794-1301 (fax);
skepticmag aol.com and www.skeptic.com or send your message telepathically
and we will respond in kind.
For those of your not familiar with the Skeptics Society or have not seen
Skeptic magazine, see our web page: www.skeptic.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.9 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: awakening the will in homeless adults
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 22:01:18 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
OK, so if you're advisor's Anthroposophist Douglas Sloan, you can get
a doctorate for doing a thesis about "awakening the will." Even if
the program appeared to be a failure (two out of seven "made
significant progress in will development), it's not that he was doing
the wrong thing, it's that he didn't do it long enough. (sarcasm)
Interesting that Anthroposophical psychology was given the keyword
"education, religious".
-Dan Dugan
DATABASE: Dissertation Abstracts Online
ACCESSION NO.: AAG9939541
TITLE: AWAKENING THE WILL IN HOMELESS ADULTS (MANHATTAN, RUDOLF
STEINER, SUBSTANCE ABUSE, INTERPERSONAL CONFLICT)
AUTHOR: REED, WAYNE ARTHUR
DEGREE: ED.D.
YEAR: 1999
INSTITUTION: COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY TEACHERS COLLEGE; 0055
ADVISER: Sponsor: DOUGLAS SLOAN
SOURCE: DAI, VOL. 60-07A, Page 2439, 00204 Pages
DESCRIPTORS: EDUCATION, SOCIAL SCIENCES; EDUCATION, RELIGIOUS;
EDUCATION, ADULT AND CONTINUING; EDUCATION, GUIDANCE AND
COUNSELING
The purpose of this study was to design a pedagogy which awakens the
will in a small group of homeless adults. This research tracked the
formation of a small group of adults from a Manhattan soup kitchen.
The group took part in a ten-week educational process which had as
its objective the building of will in those who participated. Seven
adults completed the process. Their biographical information,
involvement in the project, and their will development is reported in
the case study.
The philosophical basis for the research is Rudolf Steiner's
understanding of the three-fold nature of the human being, the human
as willing, feeling and thinking. Drawing on Coenraad van Houten's
application of Steiner's philosophy to adult education, the
researcher constructed a multi-dimensional lesson plan which was
implemented in ten weekly sessions. At the conclusion of the study
the project was evaluated for its effectiveness in generating will in
the seven adults. The lesson plan was also analyzed and adaptations
were proposed.
By integrating interviews and participant observation this study
watched for the development of will in the participants during the
period. Physical and emotional signs of the will's presence were
documented. Each adult's progress was monitored by the researcher's
observations and the completion of an assessment tool created
especially for the project.
Results indicated that two of the seven adults made significant
progress in will development during the ten weeks. Three others made
moderate progress and two demonstrated little improvement.
Interpersonal conflicts and substance abuse among the participants
were considered to be factors which influenced the outcome of the
research. Post research findings suggested that the educational model
would have been more effective if it had been implemented over a
longer period of time.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2535.10 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Waldorf consistent with African-American cultural patterns
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 21:41:42 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
A friend sent us this abstract:
-Dan Dugan
ACCESSION NO.: AAG9826734
TITLE: BEYOND SURVIVAL: A CASE STUDY OF THE MILWAUKEE URBAN
WALDORF SCHOOL (WISCONSIN, WALDORF EDUCATION)
AUTHOR: WOOD, PHAIZON RHYS
DEGREE: ED.D.
YEAR: 1996
INSTITUTION: UNIVERSITY OF SAN FRANCISCO; 6019
ADVISER: Chairperson: ANITA P. DEFRANTZ
SOURCE: DAI, VOL. 59-03A, Page 0703, 00240 Pages
DESCRIPTORS: EDUCATION, BILINGUAL AND MULTICULTURAL; EDUCATION,
INTERCULTURAL; EDUCATION, PHILOSOPHY OF; BLACK STUDIES
This case study examines the concept of cultural continuity as a
contributing factor in the evaluation of effective educational
programs for African-American children. The study focus is on the
development and implementation of the first public Waldorf school
serving inner-city children in the United States. The Waldorf
approach to education was specifically created to facilitate social
transformation and the development of free individuals. It is argued
that its effectiveness is related to the clear identification of an
educational goal addressing the need to prepare these children for
leadership within the social and political context of cultural
domination and White supremacy within the United States. The Urban
Waldorf School was the only elementary school in the Milwaukee Public
School system to demonstrate gains in reading achievement for third-
grade students, as well as positive gains in a number of nonacademic
measures. An analysis of these results suggests some of the benefits
and limitations in implementing Waldorf education with this
population. The study includes an extensive literature review of the
historical, social, psychological, political, and critical
pedagogical contributions to an understanding of the institutional
barriers to achieving human freedom existent within the educational
realm. The review supports the finding that approaches to the
education of African-American children that are designed to be
consistent with African-American cultural patterns prove to be
effective on a variety of measures. Waldorf methods were compared and
found to contain the same culturally consistent approaches and
pedagogies as those cited in the literature as most effective and
that facilitate children who are participants in their own
empowerment. A critical need is for the development of an American
curriculum--an updated curriculum, consistent with the Waldorf
philosophy and pedagogy, that connects African-American children with
their cultural past as well as their lived reality in the present.
The Waldorf approach to education, with these selected and
appropriate curricular modifications, is identified as a promising
model for educational and social transformation. This educational
system represents an effective, long-term response to the structural
and institutional barriers to rehumanizing the process of schooling
in the United States.
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2535 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2536 --------------
001 - "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik - Re: Behavior Modification (WAS: Re: new Twin Ridges charterinW
002 - Sean Slovan (sean.slovan - Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
003 - Sean Slovan (sean.slovan - Re: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
004 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Waldorf education prevents cancer?
005 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Re: Waldorf education prevents cancer?
006 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Re: awakening the will in homeless adults
007 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Congressional Quarterly Researcher: Autism, LD, Mercury
Poi
008 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Waldorf consistent with African-American cultural patterns
009 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: awakening the will in homeless adults
010 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.1 ---------------
From: "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik cybertrails.com)
Subject: Re: Behavior Modification (WAS: Re: new Twin Ridges charterinWatsonville, CA)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 02:39:43 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hey Deb,
Good work stories. This next Thurs, we are having a consultant come in and
train in autism for our staff. Part of the thrust is identifying what
purpose the inappropriate behavior serves (e.g., reduction of noxious
stimulation) and differentiation between psychosis and autism,. It should
be a good one. I am not sure about the role of ABA in the presentation
although Im sure there is a big one. THe local DD people have been
encouraging the use of PACE but that remains to be seen. I keep hearing
that the "individualized" pace program is not really that individualized.
)
) Then there is the story about Kent holding math class in the bathroom...
I'll bet this one was interesting and I'll bet too that I am glad that I
did not have to deal with it.
Take care
Jim
)
)
) Thanks, Jim. I think I'll buy the book.
) Debra
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.2 ---------------
From: Sean Slovan (sean.slovan gmx.net)
Subject: Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 18:20:56 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In-Reply-To: (39B39659.EA6696F home.se)
Luke wrote/napisal(a):
) You know, Peter Koenig is the name of one of the sons of
) Christof Koenig, son of Karl Koenig, founder of the
) anthroposophical world movement known as Camphill. I think he
) lives, or for a time lived, in Australia and was a biodynamic
) farmer.
The Swiss Peter-R. Koenig is in no way related to Karl Koenig and/or his
son. Best thing is to ask him personally: (koenig cyberlink.ch). His English
is fluent. His first name is Peter, but he is not the nephew of the pope
either. Did you ever check a German directory, let's say of Berlin? Zurich
is not much better.
) Ever since I first saw this article, I wondered if this were not
) the same Peter Koenig, particularly since it is such a whitewash
) of Rudolf Steiner.
Now this is a strange argumentation: Because it is a "whitewash", Koenig has
to be part of the Anthropop conspiracy. Dietrich Eckart used the same twist
(see my other posting) when he called Steiner a Jew because his writings
smelled of "Talmud". Great!
This says it all, "Lucky". Good night.
Sen Slovn
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.3 ---------------
From: Sean Slovan (sean.slovan gmx.net)
Subject: Re: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 18:20:56 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In-Reply-To: (39B39659.EA6696F home.se)
Lucky Miller wrote/napisal:
) I cut and paste the following:
You would believe anything, I suppose, because it's written on a webpage?
I would not even bother to reply to such a nonsense, but for the sake of the
others... You wouldn't believe that Hitler is alive in a sub below the South
Pole, collaborating with the Greys and Clinton (and Al "the Beast" Gore of
course) for the Day X of the NWO, would you? Nevertheless it's written out
there.
Concerning Eckart and Thule, I can name the following SERIOUS research work
that anybody should READ before he/she swallows the mind-blinding crap on
the web. (Sometimes it is exasperating how people just swallow everything as
long as it suits their petty argument. Eckart is long dead, and Munich is
far away, who bothers...)
Margarete Plewnia: Auf dem Weg zu Hitler. Der 'voelkische' Publizist
Dietrich Eckart. Bremen 1970.
Engelmann, Ralph Max: Dietrich Eckart and the Genesis of Nazism. Thesis
Washington University, St. Louis 1971
Claus-Ekkehard Baersch: Die politische Religion des Nationalsozialismus. Die
religioese Dimension der NS-Ideologie in den Schriften von Dietrich Eckart,
Joseph Goebbels, Alfred Rosenberg und Adolf Hitler. Muenchen 1998.
Bruno Thoss: Der Ludendorff-Kreis 1919-1923. Koordinationsversuche des
rechten Aktionismus zwischen Revolution und Hitler-Putsch. Muenchen 1978.
Detlev Rose: Die Thule-Gesellschaft. Legende Mythos Wirklichkeit.
Tuebingen 1994.
Hermann Gilbhard: Die Thule-Gesellschaft Vom okkulten Mummenschanz zum
Hakenkreuz. Muenchen 1994.
Reginald H. Phelps: Before Hitler Came: Thule Society and Germanenorden. In:
Journal of Modern History 35 (1963), pp. 245-261.
James Webb: The Occult Establishment. LaSalle/Ill. 1976 (contains several
factual errors on Eckart).
) In its formulation and content, the program of the NSDAP
) (National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei) (National
) Socialist German Workers Party) was greatly influenced by
) Dietrich Eckart, a Thule Society member. Madame Blavatsky,
) pp. 284, 286.
Eckart never was member of either the DAP or the NSDAP. He had influence on
Hitler, but stayed away from the political life of the party.
)Members in this society, among others, were Adolf
) Hitler, Rudolf Hess, Heinrich Himmler, and Hermann Gring.
Hitler, Himmler and Gring NEVER were members of Thule. Eckart was not a
MEMBER, only GUEST. Hess was MEMBER.
Ralph Engelmann on p. 144: "It is noteworthy that Eckart did not associate
himself with an established grouping in the Thule Society. Rather he strove
to broaden his base as an independant publicist."
)The
) publishing arm of the Thule Society became the NSDAP partys
) publishing house.
Thule's founder Sebottendorff had bought the Muenchner Beobachter in 1918
for Thule. Thule was conceived not as an occult, but as a political society,
and was trying to agitate against "communists and Jews" in public. Eckart
helped when the NSDAP bought the paper in 1922 to turn it into the
Voelkische Beobachter.
) Dietrich Eckart, one of the leading members of the occult
) Thule Society,
Again: He never was. Thule was not occult.
)introduced Hitler to Madame Blavatskys teachings.
He never did. He detested Theosophy as "undeutsch" and "pornographic filth".
His mental background was much more influenced by the Catholic Church. His
favorite thinker was the Baroque and heterodox mystic from Silesia, Angelus
Silesius.
)In
) December 1923, Eckart said on his deathbed: Follow Hitler! He
) will dance, but I will decide on the melody. I introduced him
) to The Secret Doctrine, opened his visionary centers, and thus
) gave him the ability to make connection with the forces.
) Die sanfte Verfhrung, p. 140.
This quotation is not authentic. It was first invented in 1970 by Trevor
Ravenscroft in his imaginative collection of fairy tales, "The Spear of
Destiny".
) I recall being given a copy of Dietrich Eckart's book on
) Parzival to read by a senior anthroposophist of the WWII
) generation (I believe the book was called "Parzival in 12
) Pictures" or something like that). ). This book was commonly
) distributed and read in anthroposophical circles.
Horrid web lore. I suppose it relates to what was Ravenscroft's mythologic
account in the beginning, namely that the anthroposophist W.J. Stein
supposedly found before WW I in a Vienna second-hand bookshop the copy of
"Parzival" by Wolfram von Eschenbach (early 13th c.) which was originally
Hitler's own copy with many hand-written annotations. It has been proven by
Christoph Lindenberg that this bookshop never existed in the first place,
and besides, WJ Stein never "found" a book owned by Hitler.
Eckart never wrote any book on Parzival or a similar subject.
) I meant to include the information that one of the reasons I
) believe the individual who gave me the book to read "*did* know"
) is because upon handing it to me, this person said that this
) particular version of the legend of Parzival was very special
) but they could not explain why this was so.)
What exactly you mean? You were given a book that has not been written? Or
was it Wolfram? Wolfram's rendering IS special, very beautiful and deep.
Take a course in medieval literature for a start.
The following is a sample of what Eckart thought about Anthroposophy and
Steiner, taken from his own newspaper "Auf gut deutsch" (= AGD) and from the
Voelkische Beobachter (= VB):
AGD, July 11, 1919, p. 222: "Recently, I have been asked incessently what I
think of Dr. Rudolf Steiner. My answer confined itself to the facts that
many years ago in Berlin whedn he was enthused by Nietzsche I once heard him
speak from a miraculously suspended dais; that recently an "Appeal"
concocted by him came my way signed by a number of 'eminent' names which was
nonetheless completely without content, indeed thoroughly confused; and
lastly, that I saw him as a JEW whom I wouldn't trust across the street."
VB Oct 19, 1921, frontpage: RS is a "Edelkommunist", "der Mann nach Israels
Herzen" (first-class communist, a Man dear to Israel").
VB May 27, 1922 (Steiner then held a public lecture in Munich, during which
he was attacked by Nazis): Steiner "soll kein Jude gewesen sein, aber wer
sich mit den Krueppelformen des Steinerischen Denkens befasst hat, erkennt
unschwer, dass Kabbala und Talmud das Sperma waren, aus dem dieses
sonderbare Gewaechs gedieh". (Steiner is said not to be Jewish, but anyone
who has studied the crippled forms of Steiner's thought, will easily realise
that Kabbala and Talmud were the sperm from which this strange plant grew".
VB May 27, 1922: "Herr Steiner ist wie seine theosophischen Brueder
Edelkommunist" (Mr. Steiner is, like his theosophical brothers, a first-rate
communist.)
VB May 27, 1922: "Mit einem solchen deutschfeindlichen Charlatan sich
ernsthaft auseinanderzusetzen, strauebt sich der Bleistift". (If one would
try to discuss seriously such an anti-German swindler, then the pen is
revolting.)
VB May 27, 1922: "Herr Steiner will mit seiner Lehre praktisch das Gleiche,
was alle Feinde unserer voelkischen und staatlichen Selbstndigkeit
anstreben. Nur nennt er es anders. Unter dem Namen "Anthroposophie" und
"Dreigliederung" geht er seinen dunklen Geschaeften nach, [...] unser Volk
mit seinen Lehren zu verseuchen, und durch seinen Einfluss auf weiteste
Kreise ist er zu einer Gefahr fuer unsere Gegenwart und Zukunft geworden.
Herr Steiner mag seine Giftbruehe im Ausland verspritzen..."
(Mr. Steiner wants with his teachings practically the same as all the
enemies of our voelkisch and national independence. He only calls it
differently. Under the name of "Anthroposophy" and "Threefolding", he
pursues his dirty business, [...] to infect our Volk with his teachings, and
because of his influence on wide circles, he has become a danger for our
present and future. Mr. Steiner may spray his poisonous brew abroad...)
Oct 22, 1922 VB: "Der Prophet aus Kraljewitz (Kraljevec, Steiner's
birthplace in today's Croatia, Sen) ist tot fr Deutschland" (For Germany,
the prophet from Kraljevec is dead...)
For the sake of serious historical research,
Sen Slovn
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.4 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Waldorf education prevents cancer?
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 01:26:30 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
In the Anthroposophical medical journal *Mercury*, Steiner's theory
that too-early intellectualizing will lead to illness is interpreted
with regard to cancer:
"In school, the forces of growth must be transformed into forces of
thinking through suitable education. In the discussion of the cell,
it was shown that growth forces which are not bound to cell life in
the brain are at the service of thought. Steiner's educational
system, wholly based on the development of the child, takes great
care that no unused growth forces remain behind which could, in later
life, become centers of proliferation. A school which mainly
emphasizes the formation of intellectual capabilities is not able to
transform all growth forces which are active in the depths of the
organism in a way that they could serve the ego as sources of
thinking, representation, and memory. The unused life forces become
trapped and as such are potential sources of tumor formation."
[Lorenz MD, Friedrich. "Cancer: A Mandate to Humanity." Mercury Number 16: June 1997: Journal of the Anthroposophical Therapy and Hygiene Association. Chestnut Ridge, NY, p. 17.]
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.5 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf education prevents cancer?
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 11:01:24 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (200009041716.KAA26263 lists1.best.com)
Well, this is just the Anthroposophical Journal, who else but other
anthropops take this stuff seriously? In other words who cares! Think of
all the other unfounded stuff such as homeopathic medicine out there, this
is just more of the same...
--Rose
At 01:26 AM 9/4/00 -0700, you wrote:
)In the Anthroposophical medical journal *Mercury*, Steiner's theory
)that too-early intellectualizing will lead to illness is interpreted
)with regard to cancer:
)
)"In school, the forces of growth must be transformed into forces of
)thinking through suitable education. In the discussion of the cell,
)it was shown that growth forces which are not bound to cell life in
)the brain are at the service of thought. Steiner's educational
)system, wholly based on the development of the child, takes great
)care that no unused growth forces remain behind which could, in later
)life, become centers of proliferation. A school which mainly
)emphasizes the formation of intellectual capabilities is not able to
)transform all growth forces which are active in the depths of the
)organism in a way that they could serve the ego as sources of
)thinking, representation, and memory. The unused life forces become
)trapped and as such are potential sources of tumor formation."
)
)[Lorenz MD, Friedrich. "Cancer: A Mandate to Humanity." Mercury Number 16:
June 1997: Journal of the Anthroposophical Therapy and Hygiene Association.
Chestnut Ridge, NY, p. 17.]
)
)-Dan Dugan
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.6 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Re: awakening the will in homeless adults
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 11:33:14 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (200009040606.XAA22948 lists1.best.com)
The shocking thing is the school this is coming out of. It figures it is a
degree in Ed, which is a piece of garbage degree as far as I am concerned
and this just gives more force to my belief. How pathetic.
Also, it is ironic that this same school confers degrees in Applied
Behavioral Analysis. If it was Douglas Greer, also at this school, rather
than Douglas Sloan you would have something more substantive. What is the
world coming too?
--Rose
At 10:01 PM 9/3/00 -0700, you wrote:
)OK, so if you're advisor's Anthroposophist Douglas Sloan, you can get
)a doctorate for doing a thesis about "awakening the will." Even if
)the program appeared to be a failure (two out of seven "made
)significant progress in will development), it's not that he was doing
)the wrong thing, it's that he didn't do it long enough. (sarcasm)
)
)Interesting that Anthroposophical psychology was given the keyword
)"education, religious".
)
)-Dan Dugan
)
)DATABASE: Dissertation Abstracts Online
)
) ACCESSION NO.: AAG9939541
) TITLE: AWAKENING THE WILL IN HOMELESS ADULTS (MANHATTAN, RUDOLF
) STEINER, SUBSTANCE ABUSE, INTERPERSONAL CONFLICT)
) AUTHOR: REED, WAYNE ARTHUR
) DEGREE: ED.D.
) YEAR: 1999
) INSTITUTION: COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY TEACHERS COLLEGE; 0055
) ADVISER: Sponsor: DOUGLAS SLOAN
) SOURCE: DAI, VOL. 60-07A, Page 2439, 00204 Pages
) DESCRIPTORS: EDUCATION, SOCIAL SCIENCES; EDUCATION, RELIGIOUS;
) EDUCATION, ADULT AND CONTINUING; EDUCATION, GUIDANCE AND
) COUNSELING
)
)The purpose of this study was to design a pedagogy which awakens the
)will in a small group of homeless adults. This research tracked the
)formation of a small group of adults from a Manhattan soup kitchen.
)The group took part in a ten-week educational process which had as
)its objective the building of will in those who participated. Seven
)adults completed the process. Their biographical information,
)involvement in the project, and their will development is reported in
)the case study.
)
)The philosophical basis for the research is Rudolf Steiner's
)understanding of the three-fold nature of the human being, the human
)as willing, feeling and thinking. Drawing on Coenraad van Houten's
)application of Steiner's philosophy to adult education, the
)researcher constructed a multi-dimensional lesson plan which was
)implemented in ten weekly sessions. At the conclusion of the study
)the project was evaluated for its effectiveness in generating will in
)the seven adults. The lesson plan was also analyzed and adaptations
)were proposed.
)By integrating interviews and participant observation this study
)watched for the development of will in the participants during the
)period. Physical and emotional signs of the will's presence were
)documented. Each adult's progress was monitored by the researcher's
)observations and the completion of an assessment tool created
)especially for the project.
)
)Results indicated that two of the seven adults made significant
)progress in will development during the ten weeks. Three others made
)moderate progress and two demonstrated little improvement.
)Interpersonal conflicts and substance abuse among the participants
)were considered to be factors which influenced the outcome of the
)research. Post research findings suggested that the educational model
)would have been more effective if it had been implemented over a
)longer period of time.
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.7 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Congressional Quarterly Researcher: Autism, LD, Mercury
Poisoning
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 11:59:59 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
)
Dan, what do you make of this? Do you think my child has mercury
poisoniing from receiving the Heb B vaccine the first day of his life?
Also, what is the anthro cure for mercury poisoning? What is the
allopathic cure for mercury poisoning? What is the naturopathic cure for
mercury poisoning? I'll try anything to cure his "autism" if that is what
it is instead of mercury poisoning.
Thanks
--Rose
)
)Subject: Parents Blame Mercury For Autism..Congressional Quarterly Researcher
)August 25, 2000
)---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
)
)An audible gasp erupted from the audience at a congressional hearing in July
)after a presentation by a group of parents of autistic children from New
)Jersey.
)
)Their 85-page report on their exhaustive search of medical literature
)included a chart listing 75 symptoms characteristic of autism -- such as
)social withdrawal, obsessive-compulsive traits, arm flapping, head banging
)and toe walking. Alongside those traits, they had listed 75 symptoms
)attributable to mercury poisoning. As they read the chart, members of the
)audience gasped. The two lists of symptoms were nearly identical -- for all
)75 symptoms.
)
)"As a trained scientist, my reading of the mercury literature indicates that
)every trait that defines autism can be induced by organic mercury
)[poisoning]," said Albert Enayati, a chemist and president of the New Jersey
)chapter of the Cure Autism Now Foundation (CAN), which did the study. His
son
)Payam developed normally until he received his DPT and MMR shots, after
which
)he stopped talking and interacting with people and began toe walking, head
)banging and arm flapping.
)
)Enayati and other parents at the hearing claimed that excessive amounts of
)mercury from multiple vaccines may have triggered their children's
late-onset
)autism, a new type of autism in which a normally developing child suddenly
)loses speech and social and cognitive skills. Classic autism is considered a
)genetic condition that exists from birth.
)
)Theories about autism have been tested and discarded for decades. Medical
)associations and public health officials insist there is no scientific
)evidence that vaccines cause autism. However, in recent years -- with rates
)of the disorder skyrocketing across the country -- frantic parents are
)increasingly questioning the vaccine-autism connection.
)
)And mercury in vaccines is not the only concern. Doctors and researchers are
)examining whether -- for a small, mercury- sensitive segment of the
)population -- the measles vaccine, perhaps in conjunction with mercury or
)other environmental toxins, may trigger "autism-spectrum disorders" ranging
)from learning disabilities and attention-deficit disorders on the mild end
to
)autism on the severe end.
)
)The American Medical Association (AMA) recently said that up to 20 percent
of
)children have one of a spectrum of neurodevelopmental conditions that
)includes autism, learning disorders and attention-deficit/hyperactivity
)disorder. In California, autism diagnoses soared 273 percent and diagnoses
of
)related disorders skyrocketed 1,966 percent between 1987 and 1998. Maryland
)reported a 513 percent rise in autism between 1993 and 1998, and several
)dozen other states have reported increases of 300 percent or more.
)
)Mercury, a potent neurotoxin linked to mental retardation, cerebral palsy
and
)central nervous system disorders, has been used in vaccines since the 1930s,
)in a preservative called thimerosal. Thimerosal is present in more than 50
)vaccines and other medicines, even though it has been banned in many
)over-the-counter medications since the 1980s.
)
)Because children in the past decade have begun receiving more vaccines at
)earlier ages -- often multiple vaccines in a single day -- concerns have
)arisen about how much mercury infant brains are being exposed to from
)vaccines.
)
)(California Department of Developmental Services)
)
)"My grandson received vaccines for nine different diseases in one day," said
)House Government Reform Committee Chairman Dan Burton, R-Ind., who said the
)child is now autistic. "He may have been exposed to 62.5 micrograms of
)mercury in one day through his vaccines. According to his weight, [that] is
)41 times the amount at which harm can be caused." And Burton added, "These
)vaccines are still in use."
)
)Lyndale Redwood, a nurse from Atlanta, told the hearing that her autistic
)2-month-old son had received 125 times his allowable daily exposure of
)mercury after getting two infant vaccines in one day. "These large exposures
)continued at 4, 6, 12 and 18 months," she said. She also discovered that the
)injections she received during the first and third trimesters of her
)pregnancy and an hour after delivery to prevent RH blood incompatibility
also
)contained mercury. An analysis of her son's hair revealed that he had five
)times more mercury than was considered safe.
)
)Mercury is extremely toxic to developing fetal brains. In many parts of the
)country, pregnant mothers are advised not to eat canned tuna fish, which
)contains high levels of mercury. Emissions from coal-fired power plants are
)another major source of mercury contamination.
)
)Parents at the hearing were particularly concerned about the impact of
)mercury on the brains of hours-old newborns, who, since 1991, have been
)immunized with a thimerosal-containing hepatitis B vaccine before they leave
)the hospital. They angrily demanded to know why federal agencies had not
)banned the use of mercury.
)
)William Egan, acting director of the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA)
)Office of Vaccine Research and Review, said, "There is no convincing data or
)evidence of any harm caused by the low levels of thimerosal that some
)children may have encountered in following the existing immunization
)schedule." Furthermore, the federal guidelines for mercury exposure include
)margins of safety, and most vaccine exposure is within that margin of
safety,
)he said.
)
)Benjamin Schwartz, acting director of epidemiology and surveillance for the
)Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's (CDC) National Immunization
)Program (NIP), says "There's a difference between chronic, daily exposure
and
)what a child can be exposed to on any given day." The agency interprets the
)mercury guidelines as how much a person can be exposed to over six months.
)
)Nevertheless, Egan said, even though the threat from mercury is only
)"theoretical," the government last year asked manufacturers to voluntarily
)remove or significantly reduce by next spring the thimerosal from all
)vaccines routinely administered to infants. It was not banned outright in
)order not to disrupt the nation's vaccine supply, he said.
)
)As a result, said Roger H. Bernier, associate director for science at the
)NIP, the amount of mercury an infant may be exposed to from routine
)immunizations has been reduced by 60 percent in the past year.
)
)Plus, responding to concerns about newborns, the CDC recommended that
)physicians temporarily discontinue giving them the hepatitis B vaccine at
)birth until a mercury-free vaccine was available. Mercury has since been
)removed from the vaccine, and it is again given routinely to newborns.
)
)Redwood also cited a West Coast study of the mercury exposure of 120,000
)children, which showed a "statistically significant (albeit weak)
)association" between thimerosal exposure and attention deficit disorders,
)tics, speech and language delay and neurodevelopment delays in general."
But
)Bernier said the CDC duplicated the study but did not get the same results.
)
)"These results require further scrutiny," he said, "but the direction of the
)findings is reassuring."
)
)However, Neal Halsey, director of the Institute for Vaccine Safety at Johns
)Hopkins University, said, "Uncertainties rising from the new data do not
)resolve any of the controversies or differences of opinion regarding the
)potential risks from thimerosal in vaccines," he said.
)
)"Additional studies need to be conducted." [1]
)
)Bernier said the CDC is studying whether autism is related to the measles
)vaccine. The agency is also collaborating with the National Institutes of
)Health (NIH) on a study of autistic regression and vaccination.
)
)Finally, the CDC, NIH and Institute of Medicine (IOM) have recently
)established a standing committee on vaccine safety, which will assess new
)evidence about possible adverse health effects -- including autism -- from
)vaccines.
)
)But pediatricians like Stephanie Cave of Baton Rouge, La., are not waiting
)for any more studies. She says she is seeing major improvements using
)timed-release chelation therapy to remove mercury and other heavy metals
from
)autistic and learning-disabled children's bodies. "As the treatments
)progress," she says, "we're seeing eye contact, socialization and speech.
The
)children are literally turning around."
)
)But she and other researchers do not think that mercury is the only
culprit.
)She thinks the mercury may compromise babies' immune systems, so that when
)babies get their measles, mumps, rubella (MMR) vaccines at age 15 months,
the
)body may not be able to fight off the viruses as well as it should.
)
)A related theory set off a firestorm two years ago, when a report appeared
in
)the influential British medical journal Lancet arguing that the MMR vaccine
)might trigger a bowel disorder that may allow toxins like mercury to cross
)from the blood into the brain, causing regressive autism. The report was
)widely criticized as methodologically flawed, and at least two subsequent
)epidemiological studies did not find a link. Additional studies are being
)conducted.
)
)But Rick Rollens, a Granite Bay, Calif., parent whose child developed
)late-onset autism following vaccines, thinks independent studies must be
done
)on this subject, without influence from either the vaccine industry or the
)public health agencies. Prodded by Rollens and the parents of other
autistic
)children, the California legislature appropriated $34 million for a study of
)neurodevelopmental disorders at the University of California at Davis.
)
)"Asking the public health community to investigate the role of vaccines in
)the development of autism is like asking the tobacco industry to investigate
)the link between lung cancer and smoking," Rollens says.
)
)[1] From the Institute for Vaccine Safety Web site,
)www.vaccinesafety.edu/ACIP-thim-0621.htm.
)
))From the CQ Researcher of Aug 25, 2000
)
) 2000 Congressional Quarterly Inc. All Rights Reserved.
)
)
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.8 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf consistent with African-American cultural patterns
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 13:41:38 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
) A friend sent us this abstract:
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
) ACCESSION NO.: AAG9826734
) TITLE: BEYOND SURVIVAL: A CASE STUDY OF THE
) MILWAUKEE URBAN
) WALDORF SCHOOL (WISCONSIN, WALDORF
) EDUCATION)
) AUTHOR: WOOD, PHAIZON RHYS
) DEGREE: ED.D.
) YEAR: 1996
) INSTITUTION: UNIVERSITY OF SAN FRANCISCO; 6019
) ADVISER: Chairperson: ANITA P. DEFRANTZ
) SOURCE: DAI, VOL. 59-03A, Page 0703, 00240 Pages
) DESCRIPTORS: EDUCATION, BILINGUAL AND MULTICULTURAL;
) EDUCATION,
) INTERCULTURAL; EDUCATION, PHILOSOPHY OF;
) BLACK STUDIES
(snip)
Waldorf methods were
) compared and
) found to contain the same culturally consistent approaches and
)
) pedagogies as those cited in the literature as most effective
) and
) that facilitate children who are participants in their own
) empowerment. A critical need is for the development of an
) American
) curriculum--an updated curriculum, consistent with the Waldorf
)
) philosophy and pedagogy, that connects African-American
) children with
) their cultural past as well as their lived reality in the
) present.
(snip)
Sounds great, doesn't it? However, in the context of a broader
discussion and/or understanding of the concept of racial and
ethnic destinies and karma in anthroposophy, it is geopolitics
as usual: ethnic (and racial) groups keep to within their own
boundaries and must maintain their distinctive identities,
"unpolluted" by characteristics, ideals or values determined (by
"spiritual investigation") not to belong to that ethnic or
racial group. The unique destiny of each folksoul must be
fulfilled (likewise only determinable by "spiritual
investigation") and every individual has the obligation to
commit their lives to make it happen.
Also, their racial or ethnic identity is believed to have been
"chosen" (by default or by intention) by each person as a
critical necessary element of their present incarnation in order
to achieve that which they are meant to or which they seek to
achieve in this life. It is kind of like training camp for
athletes: the "camp training facilities" (so-called
characteristics defining each ethnic or racial group) is fixed
and does not change in response to the individual since its
purpose is to force the individual to change him or her self in
response to the demands of the "camp" (ethnic or racial
incarnation) and to develop the will to do so.
Two options here: the first option is that the person may be
able to find the means to relocate him or her self into another
cultural environment. This may either be deemed "spiritually
necessary" (in which case the change is not challenged) *or* it
may be deemed as "running from one's karma", which is *never*
permitted, and in which case the ethnocultural imperatives which
the individual had found so offensive or undesirable will be
imposed upon him or her by those anthroposophists (overt and
covert) in the new environment at any and all opportunities to
do so. If it is deemed spiritually necessary, then the social
and cultural imperatives (read: stereotype) of the *new* ethnic
group (linked inextricably to geography) are imposed for the
purposes of "spiritual development". (This is just a sketch: as
always in Anthroposophy, things get incredibly baroque:
sometimes the "purpose" of the person's cultural relocation is
to assist in the "spiritual development" of the ethnic group by
providing spiritual guidance, etc. A prime example of this is
the Camphill and Waldorf movements in black South Africa. We
don't want to fall into the anthropop trap of literally getting
lost in thought.)
The second option is that one simply fails to "learn the
lessons" from one's ethnic or racial incarnation, the
circumstances producing failure or discomfort are repeated and
reinforced ad nauseum, one dies unchanged in these critical
particulars and one must therefor be reincarnated into the same
situation again and again until the lesson is finally learned.
There are always exceptions in anthroposophy (probably because
the "laws" as they perceive them are full of holes and can't
hold up to reality), but those individuals who prove themselves
to be capable of escaping the prison of ethnic and racial
stereotype are thought to have a "special destiny" or to be
spiritual leaders of their types who have evolved somewhat ahead
of the rest and are therefor exceptional and hence are not
accepted as proof of the error of the stereotype.
Luke
__________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.9 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: awakening the will in homeless adults
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 14:03:24 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
) OK, so if you're advisor's Anthroposophist Douglas Sloan, you
) can get
) a doctorate for doing a thesis about "awakening the will."
) Even if
) the program appeared to be a failure (two out of seven "made
) significant progress in will development), it's not that he
) was doing
) the wrong thing, it's that he didn't do it long enough.
) (sarcasm)
)
) Interesting that Anthroposophical psychology was given the
) keyword
) "education, religious".
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
) DATABASE: Dissertation Abstracts Online
)
) ACCESSION NO.: AAG9939541
) TITLE: AWAKENING THE WILL IN HOMELESS ADULTS
) (MANHATTAN, RUDOLF
) STEINER, SUBSTANCE ABUSE, INTERPERSONAL
) CONFLICT)
) AUTHOR: REED, WAYNE ARTHUR
) DEGREE: ED.D.
) YEAR: 1999
) INSTITUTION: COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY TEACHERS COLLEGE; 0055
) ADVISER: Sponsor: DOUGLAS SLOAN
) SOURCE: DAI, VOL. 60-07A, Page 2439, 00204 Pages
) DESCRIPTORS: EDUCATION, SOCIAL SCIENCES; EDUCATION,
) RELIGIOUS;
) EDUCATION, ADULT AND CONTINUING; EDUCATION,
) GUIDANCE AND
) COUNSELING
)
(snip)
) Post research findings suggested that the
) educational model
) would have been more effective if it had been implemented over
) a
) longer period of time.
as in: many future incarnations!
One of the things that is totally outrageous here, but also
tallies with the incident reported to the list about the shaming
treatment given a special needs student in a Waldorf school, is
the assertion that homeless people are simply weak-willed and
that is what has created their situation.
Shades of prohibition! Like many Anthropop ideas, this is just
another outdated and discredited one that has been dragged out
of their Steiner Museum of Victorianisms and dusted off for
reintroduction.
My understanding is that many homeless people, if not most, are
in need of medical treatment and/or hospitalization which they
do not have the means of obtaining independently and which,
thanks to the success of Reaganism in the 80s, are not available
to them through any public programs. Not to mention those who
fell into the streets as a cruel result of downsizing,
outsourcing, salary and hiring freezes, and the like. Economic
realities do have a thing or two to do with whether or not one
can afford to rent or buy a home. There was a major article not
too many months ago (in Time magazine?) about the fact that
Silicon Valley has become just such a place where housing has
become so outrageously overpriced that professionals earning
$80,000 a year are unable to find a place to live and must live
out of their cars.
And then there is the perennial problem of the working poor:
blue collar workers (i.e., the people who build your homes, fix
your cars, take care of your lawns, repair your roads, build
your bridges, etc. etc.) who cannot afford the cost of housing
in the areas they work in and so must live out of cars and in
parks to be feasibly near their places of employment.
But solving those kinds of problems would take a hell of a lot
more brain power, imagination, creativity, cooperation, good
will, determination, leadership and moral courage than "our
friends" at Columbia Teacher's College (and their anthropop
buddies) seem capable of.
It's much simpler just to blame the victims.
Luke
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2536.10 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:05:07 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Sean Slovan (sean.slovan gmx.net) wrote:
) Lucky Miller wrote/napisal:
) ) I cut and paste the following:
)
) You would believe anything, I suppose, because it's written on
) a webpage?
What is your evidence for such a ridiculous proposition?
) I would not even bother to reply to such a nonsense, but for
) the sake of the
) others... You wouldn't believe that Hitler is alive in a sub
) below the South
) Pole, collaborating with the Greys and Clinton (and Al "the
) Beast" Gore of
) course) for the Day X of the NWO, would you?
Absolutely not. What made you come to such a fantastic notion? I
hope you're not suffering from anything you should be taking
medication for (or from anything you inhaled or ingested).
) Nevertheless it's
) written out
) there.
"Out there"? As far "out there" as the akashic chronicles?
)
) Concerning Eckart and Thule, I can name the following SERIOUS
) research work
) that anybody should READ before he/she swallows the
) mind-blinding crap on
) the web. (Sometimes it is exasperating how people just swallow
) everything as
) long as it suits their petty argument.
A criticism commonly made about the supporters of anthroposophy.
) Eckart is long dead,
So are Rudolf Steiner and Jesus Christ: I don't see what your
"argument" proves.
) and Munich is
) far away, who bothers...)
if this is an argument of some sort that is supposed to prove
something, it is far too obscure to be successful.
)
) Margarete Plewnia: Auf dem Weg zu Hitler. Der 'voelkische'
) Publizist
) Dietrich Eckart. Bremen 1970.
Oh, good: another referral to a German-language source. Do you
happen to have translated it for us?
)
) Engelmann, Ralph Max: Dietrich Eckart and the Genesis of
) Nazism. Thesis
) Washington University, St. Louis 1971
Something in English! I'll have to see if I can get this.
However, I do not assume that just because the author is an
academic that everything he/she says is to be believed,
particularly without knowing the author's bias(es).
) Claus-Ekkehard Baersch: Die politische Religion des
) Nationalsozialismus. Die
) religioese Dimension der NS-Ideologie in den Schriften von
) Dietrich Eckart,
) Joseph Goebbels, Alfred Rosenberg und Adolf Hitler. Muenchen
) 1998.
Oh, good: another referral to a German-language source. Do you
happen to have translated it for us?
) Bruno Thoss: Der Ludendorff-Kreis 1919-1923.
) Koordinationsversuche des
) rechten Aktionismus zwischen Revolution und Hitler-Putsch.
) Muenchen 1978.
Oh, good: another referral to a German-language source. Do you
happen to have translated it for us?
) Detlev Rose: Die Thule-Gesellschaft. Legende Mythos
) Wirklichkeit.
) Tuebingen 1994.
Oh, good: another referral to a German-language source. Do you
happen to have translated it for us?
) Hermann Gilbhard: Die Thule-Gesellschaft Vom okkulten
) Mummenschanz zum
) Hakenkreuz. Muenchen 1994.
Oh, good: another referral to a German-language source. Do you
happen to have translated it for us?
) Reginald H. Phelps: Before Hitler Came: Thule Society and
) Germanenorden. In:
) Journal of Modern History 35 (1963), pp. 245-261.
Something in English! I'll have to see if I can get this.
However, I do not assume that just because the author is an
academic that everything he/she says is to be believed,
particularly without knowing the author's bias(es).
)
) James Webb: The Occult Establishment. LaSalle/Ill. 1976
) (contains several
) factual errors on Eckart).
If it has several factual errors on Eckart, why would you
recommend it? Because, despite it's proclivity for "factual
errors" it supports your position?
) ) In its formulation and content, the program of the NSDAP
) ) (National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei) (National
) ) Socialist German Workers Party) was greatly influenced by
) ) Dietrich Eckart, a Thule Society member. Madame Blavatsky,
) ) pp. 284, 286.
)
) Eckart never was member of either the DAP or the NSDAP.
The author never said he was. Your argument has no object.
) He had
) influence on
) Hitler, but stayed away from the political life of the party.
So far, you have failed to contradict anything the author says.
) )Members in this society, among others, were Adolf
) ) Hitler, Rudolf Hess, Heinrich Himmler, and Hermann Gring.
)
) Hitler, Himmler and Gring NEVER were members of Thule. Eckart
) was not a
) MEMBER, only GUEST. Hess was MEMBER.
Please cite sources.
As I understand it, because the Thule and other occult societies
were (and are) secret societies, there is little or no means of
verifying most, if any, of these assertions via documentary
evidence. If you have recourse to such documentary evidence, I
would be interested to know what it is.
However the fact may be that direct documentary evidence has
been secreted away or destroyed in order to thwart
investigations, that piece of trickery cannot be allowed to
sabotage efforts to unveil the truth. As in courts of law,
destruction of evidence does not necessarily derail the case.
) Ralph Engelmann on p. 144: "It is noteworthy that Eckart did
) not associate
) himself with an established grouping in the Thule Society.
) Rather he strove
) to broaden his base as an independant publicist."
What is noteworthy about this?
) )The
) ) publishing arm of the Thule Society became the NSDAP partys
) ) publishing house.
)
) Thule's founder Sebottendorff had bought the Muenchner
) Beobachter in 1918
) for Thule. Thule was conceived not as an occult, but as a
) political society,
) and was trying to agitate against "communists and Jews" in
) public.
Are you trying to say that the Thule Society had no occult or
religious aspect?
) Eckart
) helped when the NSDAP bought the paper in 1922 to turn it into
) the
) Voelkische Beobachter.
Again, you have failed to disprove or even controvert the
author.
) ) Dietrich Eckart, one of the leading members of the occult
) ) Thule Society,
)
) Again: He never was. Thule was not occult.
You are one of the very few who would say so. You will have to
prove your statement.
) )introduced Hitler to Madame Blavatskys teachings.
)
) He never did. He detested Theosophy as "undeutsch" and
) "pornographic filth".
Please cite your source.
) His mental background was much more influenced by the Catholic
) Church.
Are you anti-Catholic?
) His
) favorite thinker was the Baroque and heterodox mystic from
) Silesia, Angelus
) Silesius.
Steiner also reflects Catholic influence and had great regard
for St. Thomas Aquinas; that does not make him Catholic in his
thought or proclivities.
) )In
) ) December 1923, Eckart said on his deathbed: Follow Hitler!
) He
) ) will dance, but I will decide on the melody. I introduced
) him
) ) to The Secret Doctrine, opened his visionary centers, and
) thus
) ) gave him the ability to make connection with the forces.
) ) Die sanfte Verfhrung, p. 140.
)
) This quotation is not authentic. It was first invented in 1970
) by Trevor
) Ravenscroft in his imaginative collection of fairy tales, "The
) Spear of
) Destiny".
I am aware of the controversy about this assertion, and I only
included it in the cutting and pasting because I didn't have the
time to be more surgical in my cutting and pasting. However, as
I recall, the primary source for discrediting the Ravenscroft
account is Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke, whom, it would appear from
the fact of his and his wife's associations with occult groups
and contributions to Theosophy magazine, is himself an occultist
who no doubt wishes to disassociate occultism from the Nazi
horror for his own reasons (given your propensity to jump to
unsupported conclusions, I hasten to add that I impune no evil
or even bad motives to Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke nor do I presume
to challenge his scholarship; however, he is still human so far
as I am aware), and is not therefor not necessarily altogether
objective, despite his obvious scholarliness.
The fact is that occultism was very popular in the 20's and 30's
(much as it is now) -- many artists and writers were in fact
Theosophists (or, less commonly, its variant, Anthroposophy),
that being the particularly "chic" shade of occultism to be
colored by at the time. Occult ideas (very much including those
generated by that European mix of Rosicrucian,
Theosophical/Anthroposophical and Gnostic principles and
theology) put to worldly political use resulted in one of the
greatest horrors in history and present day occultists want to
deny this fact. Since anthroposophy also seeks to subjugate the
mundane world to its occult (irrational) belief system, I think
it is very important to be able to examine the pitfalls and
dangers inherent in such a plan, particularly as history is able
to provide relevant examples.
This is all I have time for. This response has taken up far too
much of my time as it is.
Your response and referrals, corrections, etc. are welcomed; it
is unfortunate that you chose to offer them in an offensive,
hostile, insulting and destructive spirit.
Luke
__________________________________________________
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--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2536 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2537 --------------
001 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Congressional Quarterly Researcher: Autism, LD, Mercury
002 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
003 - "truth matters" (truthmat - Re: US, Ford and Nazi Germany
004 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede -
005 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - post-CAN cult wars
006 - iris springflower (irissp - new to list
007 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: new to list
008 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
009 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Congressional Quarterly Researcher: Autism, LD, Mercury
010 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re:
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2537.1 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Congressional Quarterly Researcher: Autism, LD, Mercury Poisoning
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:21:44 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com) wrote:
(snip)
) I'll try anything to cure his "autism" if
) that is what
) it is instead of mercury poisoning.
(snip)
) )Subject: Parents Blame Mercury For Autism..Congressional
) Quarterly Researcher
) )August 25, 2000
As per the anthropop book by Thomas Weiss (? if I recall
correctly), "In Need of Special Care" (or else, "Children in
Need of Special Care" -- I can never recall which it was
because, I think, most people called it by the second name
whereas the actual title was the first)-- *unless* it's been
"retranslated" (actually, I think it was originally published in
english) to edit this out...
The Camphill anthropop take on autism is (or at least was)
largely (surprisingly) conventional, albeit totally out of date
and wrong, in that it primarily supports the now discredited
theory that autism is caused by "cold, unresponsive" mothers,
primarily professionals and the well-educated. It is considered
to be an "incarnation sickness", if I recall correctly, under
the theory that the "incarnating soul" recoiled at the last
moment before its moment of conception in fear of its impending
life (with its "cold, unresponsive mother", I guess) and never
is able to "stand in the I", i.e., claim full possession of its
ego.
Epilepsy is also considered to be an incarnation sickness, and
due to the passage of time, I may be confusing part of the above
description with the anthropop theory about that (the recoiling
from incarnation part).
Luke
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2537.2 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 18:37:43 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Sean Slovan (sean.slovan gmx.net) wrote:
) Luke wrote/napisal(a):
)
) ) You know, Peter Koenig is the name of one of the sons of
) ) Christof Koenig, son of Karl Koenig, founder of the
) ) anthroposophical world movement known as Camphill. I think
) he
) ) lives, or for a time lived, in Australia and was a
) biodynamic
) ) farmer.
)
) The Swiss Peter-R. Koenig
I have no way of knowing what this fellow's nationality is (or
even Christof Koenig's son) due to the nature of the internet.
Christof Koenig's son himself could very well have a Swiss
passport: his living (or once living) in Australia does not mean
otherwise. It is very common for anthropops, and particularly
those in Camphill, to have passports and nationalities that are
very different from what would have assumed based on present
location, language abilities, etc.
) is in no way related to Karl Koenig
) and/or his
) son.
[Well, silly me, I took you at your word but later research on
the web showed me that at best you are being very misleading: at
the very least it would appear that Peter R. Koenig has a very
strong pro-anthroposophical bias, and indeed may well be --
indeed, most likely is -- an anthroposophist. See P.S. at end of
post.]
) Best thing is to ask him personally:
If I had had the email address, I would have. But since you have
been so kind as to do that for me, I don't have to now, do I?
) (koenig cyberlink.ch). His English
) is fluent.
I gathered that from his article.
) His first name is Peter, but he is not the nephew
) of the pope
) either.
Did I say he was?
Is this an argument that is supposed to be somehow relevant to
what I said?
If you are trying to make a comparison between your silly
statment and my wonderings, there is none. I do not think it at
all unreasonable to *wonder* if persons with *both* the same
surname and the same family name, *and* similar interests (Peter
Koenig the farmer, and a Peter Koenig who is possibly associated
with a Botanical Garden -- I was unable to follow up on this
lead since we were having local internet problems while I tried
to do so, and later tonight when I again tried to follow this up
found that the Botanical Garden site wasn't coming up this time)
and who are both supporting the anthroposophical contentions
about Steiner and OTO might not be one and the same person.
) Did you ever check a German directory, let's say of
) Berlin? Zurich
) is not much better.
Clear as muck. What is your point?
) ) Ever since I first saw this article, I wondered if this were
) not
) ) the same Peter Koenig, particularly since it is such a
) whitewash
) ) of Rudolf Steiner.
)
) Now this is a strange argumentation:
It is no argumentation at all: in English, "I wonder" does not
mean the same thing as "I believe" or "I know" or "I conclude".
This is why I *asked* if anyone knew the answer.
) Because it is a
) "whitewash", Koenig has
) to be part of the Anthropop conspiracy.
So say *you* and not I.
) Dietrich Eckart used
) the same twist
Twist?
) (see my other posting)
I cannot wait...
) when he called Steiner a Jew because
) his writings
) smelled of "Talmud".
Please cite your source (not that I doubt you can come up with
one, but without it your statement is heresay and, despite your
obvious prejudices against those who critique Steiner, we really
would like to have an opportunity to know and read that which
you claim supports your allegations).
) Great!
Just because Dietrich Eckart despised Steiner (in your opinion)
does not mean that Steiner rejected Dietrich Eckart or his
ideas.
Echo loved Narcissus, but that did not logically necessitate
that Narcissus love her back -- in fact, he despised her.
There is little doubt that Nietzsche would have had little
respect for Steiner, but that does not prevent Steiner from
applauding Nietzsche, apart from his nihilism.
) This says it all, "Lucky". Good night.
That's unfortunate, since *your* argument fails.
Luke
P.S.
I think you may have been misleading us, Sean Slovan, since
Peter R. Konig does seem to have at least anthroposophical
connections per the following web pages I found (BTW, a web page
I pulled up two days ago linking Peter R. Koenig to a Botanical
Garden somewhere has failed to surface this time around--I was
unable to save the web page because of local internet problems
and, silly me, I presumed it would be there the next time I
looked.)
(A) http://www.dplanet.ch/users/prkoenig/books/fl.htm
is an interview with Peter R. Koenig, in German. I used
freetranslation.com, but the thing is far too long and I'm too
tired to attempt to read much more than the first couple of
lines.
The title is "Peter R. Koenig, Undercover Agent" -- and I don't
think they mean the FBI, CIA or Interpol kind -- subtitled
"Statement out of 'expedition against Rudolf Steiner'" (which I
think is more intelligibly translated as "Excerpts [from Peter
R. Koenig's book] 'Witchhunt against Rudolf Steiner'"
In the interview is mentioned a book: "The Black Book on
Anthroposophy" by Bruder Grandt: by "black book" I understand is
meant a book revealing the dark underside of anthroposophy (with
apologies to Tom Mellett). In this book was made the statement
that "for only a couple of weeks in 1909 was Rudolf Steiner a
member of the Ordo Templis Orientis". Peter R. Koenig refutes
this statement.
However, when one goes to the bottom of the page of the
"interview" and clicks on the hyperlink "home page", one is lead
to http://www.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/, which is the homepage of
The Ordo Templi Orientis Phenomenon, hosted by none other than
Peter R. Koenig.
A neat little circle: analogous to circular reasoning we are
expected to swallow?
(B) http://www.resurrektionarium.de/forum/
is a website named "Joseph Beuys Plexus" (Beuys, of course, was
an anthroposophist, a former Luftwaffe pilot (As I recall), and
a world reknowned artist for whom I have myself a certain amount
of respect).
And the "Solar Plexis" in eurythmy (if I can get the memory into
focus without too many obscuring cobwebs clinging to it) is
considered to be the center that holds the human being together
between heaven and earth.
Its homepage (http://www.resurrektionarium.de/forum/)
uses an anthroposophical font at the bottoom of the page that is
recognizable to any former Waldorfer.
Lots of anthroposophical references here.
And lots of conspiracy theories here, too, Mr. Slovan: methinks
thou dost protest too much! [Pot Kettle Black, as Debra likes to
say...except *this* kettle stands innocent of the charge.]
This conspiracist, anthroposophical website gets a rather
enthusiastic endorsement from Mr. Peter R. Koenig (with the
email address you claim is the correct one for the author
regarding OTO and Steiner), who posted the comment on January
28, 1999 "This is a completely gorgeous site."
I copy and paste the webpage as translated by
freetranslation.com:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-
commentary
-----------------------------------------------------------------
[ Answers ] [ your answer ] [ forum www. resurrektionarium. de ]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Abgeschickt of peter-r. king at the 28 January, 1999 around
23:08:17
that is however an entire dear website
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Per Worldlingo "abgeschickt" translates as "sent".
Luke
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2537.3 ---------------
From: "truth matters" (truthmatters unbounded.com)
Subject: Re: US, Ford and Nazi Germany
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 22:37:28 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/naziism.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2537.4 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject:
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 20:31:31 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Many list members may already be aware of this interesting
article published at
http://www.teol.lu.se/theologicum/student/papers/ted.html
as I have seen references to the information contained in the
excerpt below elsewhere. The article is an interesting one;
although I do not have time to finish it tonight, it seems
intelligent, balanced and lacking in venom or vitriol.
"From the 1920s Hitlers commandos ruthlessly attacked and
killed adherents of Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Freemasons and
others who shared the same occult doctrines; he banned their
groups from the Third Reich, and publicly denounced occultists
such as Rudolf Steiner and Allister Crowley. This can be easily
understood, however, in terms of perceived threat; Hitler simply
recognized occult power in each of the banned groups which could
be used to rival his own "'Thule Society", and eliminated them
from the field. Those occult groups who presented no threat he
left alone. It is also possible that Hitler was determined to
keep the Thule Societys roots hidden from the general public;
the groups and individuals he targeted for elimination were
those who knew of those roots (and who might disclose him). This
would explain why the Nazis burned every available book of Thule
Society founder Rudolf Heinrich von Sebottendorf, which spoke of
those roots, why they confiscated all the books of the occult
groups they outlawed, and why Rudolf Hesss defection to the
England in 1941 prompted Hitler to outlaw all remaining
occultists in the Third Reich, such as astrologers, mediums -
even parlor magicians."
--I do not know if I agree with the inference about Rudolf
Hess's defection. I rather suspect he defected *because* he
knew he had lost Hitler's favor. However, this does not
necessarily change the conclusion that as a result of whatever
the precipitating event(s) that lead to Hess's fall from grace,
Hitler generalized his mistrust and disfavor to all occultists
and occultism outside Nazism.
Luke
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2537.5 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: post-CAN cult wars
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 19:52:50 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
from the San Francisco Chronicle
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/05/01/MN88385.DTL
Combatants in Cult War Attempt Reconciliation
Peacemaking conference is held near Seattle
Don Lattin, Chronicle Religion Writer
Monday, May 1, 2000
Seattle -- They're calling it the ``Camp David of the cult wars.''
Leaders from both factions in the decades-long dispute over danger
posed by new religious movements came together over the weekend at a
woodsy retreat center on the shores of Puget Sound.
There were a few screaming matches, and a bit of the old backbiting
and rumormongering, but it was a largely peaceful gathering of
defectors, devotees, heartbroken families and assorted cult experts.
``We've reached the point where we're no longer throwing bricks,''
said J. Gordon Melton, director of the Institute for the Study of
American Religion in Santa Barbara, and someone long labeled as an
``apologist'' by leaders of the ``alarmist'' anti-cult movement.
Melton was among those attending a weekend conference at the Dumas
Bay Centre south of Seattle, sponsored by the American Family
Foundation and titled ``Cults and the Millennium.''
Since its founding 25 years ago, the foundation has been mostly
identified with the cult watchdog faction that believes authoritarian
and ``totalist'' groups -- whether they're organized around religion,
politics or psychotherapy -- pose a real danger to their members and
to the broader society.
They've had little to do with the other camp in the cult wars --
scholars and current cult members who argue that most religious sects
are relatively harmless and that the crusade against them violates
constitutional guarantees of religious freedom.
Anti-cult activists warned of ``brainwashing'' and ``mind control,''
while their opponents tell tales of violent kidnapping and coercive
``deprogramming.''
Fighting in the cult wars may have reached a peak three years ago,
when lawyers and other individuals linked to the Church of
Scientology, one of the nation's most controversial and powerful new
religious movements, sued the Cult Awareness Network into bankruptcy.
The network, which had been one of the most outspoken anti-cult
groups, eventually had its name, files and hotline taken over in a
campaign dominated by members of the Church of Scientology.
Today, those who call the Cult Awareness Network hotline actually get
an information and referral service run by the Foundation for
Religious Freedom, a group linked to the Church of Scientology.
``That's a form of deception,'' said Herbert Rosedale, president of
the American Family Foundation.
Among those working the crowd at the weekend conference was Nancy
O'Meara, a longtime Church of Scientology member and corporate
treasurer of the Foundation for Religious Freedom. She insists that
the ``new'' Cult Awareness Network provides a valuable service for
family members who call the hotline concerned about relatives who
have joined a cult.
``If someone calls and complains about the Hare Krishnas, we can go
and talk to the Hare Krishnas,'' O'Meara said. ``We want to help
families resolve their differences.''
O'Meara said their hotline has gotten about 10,000 calls since they
took it over three years ago, with about 75 percent of calls coming
from people concerned about fundamentalist Christian sects. She said
the ``new'' Cult Awareness Network is ``completely independent'' from
the Church of Scientology, although ``individual Scientologists
support its activities.''
She and other Scientologists at the conference were not included as
featured speakers, O'Meara noted, ``but at least they let us attend.''
Leading the reconciliation between the two cult camps were Michael
Langone, a counseling psychologist and executive director of the
American Family Foundation, and Eileen Barker, a sociologist at the
London School of Economics and founder of INFORM, a British charity
that provides information about new religious movements.
They gathered four representatives from each camp for a
pre-conference peacemaking session.
``We have a lot in common, and a lot of
misconceptions about each other,'' said Barker, who has been mostly
identified with the religious freedom camp. ``There are people who
think I'm wicked for even coming here. Meanwhile, they (American
Family Foundation) have been getting flak for inviting me.''
Barker and Janja Lalich, director of the Center for Research on
Influence and Control in Alameda, agreed that one of the main
differences between the two camps is they are ``asking different
questions'' about the dynamics of cults, sects and new religious
movements.
Many of the scholars studying cults and sects focus on more abstract
questions, such as how religions are born and evolve over time.
Groups like the American Family Foundation, based in Naples, Fla.,
and the Teaneck, N.J.-based Cult Information Service, focus on the
harm done to some people who join authoritarian sects. They deal with
the real anguish of fractured families whose loved ones have been
subjected to ``mind control'' or who have gone through life-changing
religious conversions.
They are people like Paul Glanville and Mike Carriker, who lost their
wives and children after leaving a church in rural Washington state
that they describe as a ``Christian totalist group'' and an
``abusive, authoritarian cult.''
``I couldn't attend my daughter's wedding and have a granddaughter
I've never seen,'' said Glanville, speaking at a session titled,
``Stories of Healing: Recovering from Christian Totalism.''
``If a man could feel what it's like to be raped, then that's how I
feel,'' said Glanville, his voice breaking.
Further complicating the weekend peace talks was the joint presence
of true believers and recent defectors from the same religious
groups. One evening session was punctuated by a screaming match
between past and present Scientologists.
Lalich, a former member of a radical political cult, said bringing
peace to the cult wars will not be easy.
``We're dipping into forbidden waters here,'' said Lalich, standing
outside the Dumas Bay Centre, a former Catholic convent on the shore
of Puget Sound. ``For many of these people, this is not some abstract
academic argument. They've really been harmed.''
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2537.6 ---------------
From: iris springflower (irisspringflower yahoo.com)
Subject: new to list
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 22:45:32 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi, I'm new to this list. A friend recommended it to
me an I am finding it very interesting.I live in an
area with LOTS of Waldorf people and I have had some
strange experiences with them. I felt hurt by some of
them because I felt they "looked down" on me because I
have Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from severe trauma
in my life and I made the mistake of trusting them
about it. I received victim-blaming and worse from
some of them and it HURT! One woman, a Waldorf
teacher, told someone else behind my back that she
"doesn't want to be around" people like me who are in
pain/trauma. I was very hurt when I was told about
this. I am NOT going to disclose my trauma, or other
personal information, on this list because I have
other specific support lists I am on for that. What I
DO have are some questions about Waldorf beliefs: Do
they believe that the following people are "inferior"?
--severely traumatized people, homeless and
chronically poor people, mentally and physically
disabled people. If they do, then I don't want
anything to do with them because I believe that
attitude to be cruel. I do feel, from my experiences
with many Waldorf people (they have a school here)
that they do look down upon others who are "not
enlightened" like they are. If the above is true
about them, then I will NOT take how they treated me
so personally. I will just tell myself that they are
acting out of their "cultic mindset" and not take them
so seriously. Your answers on the above would be
greatly appreciated.I, being of Jewish origin, also
have read about the Nazi Era. My recent interest is
about how the Nazis murdered mentally and physically
disabled people, calling their victims "useless".
Luke, I agree with you on your post about homeless
people. One thing I can't stand is victim blaming. I
believe strongly in COMPASSION and care for those who
are vulnerable and for those who suffer.You know, the
local Waldorf people I know here seem so "happy".
They seem afraid of acknowledging any so-called
"negative" emotions like pain, fear, and anger. I am
talking about normal fear, pain, and anger that many
people have. Or perhaps they don't share those
feelings with non-Waldorf people? I don't know. I
HAVE read about cult mind control and I wonder if this
makes any sense? My two children are grown now, but
when I first moved here, I actually felt "deprived" at
not being able to afford to send them to the Waldorf
school. At that time, some Waldorf people tried to
"recruit" us, but they stopped when I told them I
can't afford the time or money for their school. Now,
with the information on this list and on the web site,
I am relieved I couldn't send them there!Take care,
Iris S.
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2537.7 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: new to list
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 00:22:57 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009050546.WAA20626 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009050546.WAA20626 lists1.best.com)
Dear Iris,
Thanks for writing. Waldorf-critics may be too rough a place for you
to hang out. We argue with the Anthroposophists here and it gets
nasty at times. I recommend you subscribe to waldorf-survivors-only.
Send an email to
Waldorf-survivors-only-subscribe egroups.com
and you'll be on.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2537.8 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 23:49:38 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009042306.QAA05462 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009042306.QAA05462 lists1.best.com)
) ) James Webb: The Occult Establishment. LaSalle/Ill. 1976
This one should be in the library of anybody researching
Waldorf/Anthroposophy. Includes a seven-page unauthorized biography
of Steiner.
I don't know if Goodrick-Clarke is an occultist; he doesn't write
like one. He studies occultism and writes about it. Haven't read
anything other than "The Occult Roots of Naziism," I recommend it.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2537.9 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Congressional Quarterly Researcher: Autism, LD, Mercury
Poisoning
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 00:49:00 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009041856.LAA07053 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009041856.LAA07053 lists1.best.com)
9/4/00, Rose Alford wrote:
)Dan, what do you make of this?
I don't know. I know there has been an ongoing campaign against
immunizations that uses exaggerated and distorted "evidence" and
stories. The problem in a controversy like this is finding truly
objective sources of information.
)Do you think my child has mercury
)poisoniing from receiving the Heb B vaccine the first day of his life?
)Also, what is the anthro cure for mercury poisoning? What is the
)allopathic cure for mercury poisoning? What is the naturopathic cure for
)mercury poisoning? I'll try anything to cure his "autism" if that is what
)it is instead of mercury poisoning.
Here is a Q & A page from WHO:
http://www.who.int/vaccines-diseases/safety/hottop/thiomersal.htm
"For children in industrialized and developing countries alike, the
risk of death and complications from vaccine-preventable diseases is
real and enormous. The risk from side effects of thiomersal is
theoretical, uncertain and, at most, extremely small."
See also an excellent presentation on the MMR-autism question:
http://www.who.int/vaccines-diseases/safety/infobank/autism.htm
Note that the articles at the bottom of the page come before, from
1998. They are what raised the question answered by the subsequent
study reported in the main article. Note that the suspicions were
raised by a study 12 children, and the later study involved 500.
Regarding your personal case, I would consult a major teaching
hospital such as University of California Medical Center in San
Francisco. They have a big department that deals with developmental
problems. If you get into the clutches of an "alternative"
practitioner on an issue like this, you'll be wasting time and money
on ignorance at best, exposed to harmful and incompetent practices at
worst. Please do study, don't "try anything."
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2537.10 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re:
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 00:17:52 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
References: (200009050332.UAA06194 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009050332.UAA06194 lists1.best.com)
9/4/00, Lucky Miller wrote:
)Many list members may already be aware of this interesting
)article published at
)
)http://www.teol.lu.se/theologicum/student/papers/ted.html
)
)as I have seen references to the information contained in the
)excerpt below elsewhere. The article is an interesting one;
)although I do not have time to finish it tonight, it seems
)intelligent, balanced and lacking in venom or vitriol.
Interesting, hadn't seen it before.
)"From the 1920s Hitlers commandos ruthlessly attacked and
)killed adherents of Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Freemasons and
)others who shared the same occult doctrines; he banned their
)groups from the Third Reich, and publicly denounced occultists
)such as Rudolf Steiner and Allister Crowley. This can be easily
)understood, however, in terms of perceived threat; Hitler simply
)recognized occult power in each of the banned groups which could
)be used to rival his own "'Thule Society", and eliminated them
)from the field.
I'm not clear what Ted Wagner means by "occult power" here; whether
he believes in such a thing or thinks that Hitler did. Anyway, to me,
rivalry is the key to why Hitler suppressed the occultists. Steiner's
movement was both spiritual and political, no wonder they ran him out
of town.
)Those occult groups who presented no threat he
)left alone. It is also possible that Hitler was determined to
)keep the Thule Societys roots hidden from the general public;
)the groups and individuals he targeted for elimination were
)those who knew of those roots (and who might disclose him). This
)would explain why the Nazis burned every available book of Thule
)Society founder Rudolf Heinrich von Sebottendorf, which spoke of
)those roots, why they confiscated all the books of the occult
)groups they outlawed, and why Rudolf Hesss defection to the
)England in 1941 prompted Hitler to outlaw all remaining
)occultists in the Third Reich, such as astrologers, mediums -
)even parlor magicians."
That was the last straw. I think the Nazis were fed up with the
airhead occultists who they'd used to provide a "spiritual"
justification for their policies, but they weren't much use for
anything else when there was a war to fight.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2537 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2538 --------------
001 - Deborah Kelly (deborah_ke - Re: awakening the will in homeless adults
002 - David (waldorfedu home.co - new to list
003 - Deborah Kelly (deborah_ke - Re: Waldorf consistent with African-American cultural patterns
004 - Deborah Kelly (deborah_ke - Re: stereotypes
005 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Anthroposophy and Nazism: The Thule Society
006 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: new to list
007 - iris springflower (irissp - thanks, Dan
008 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: thanks, Dan
009 - Rechomba cs.com - Re: new to list
010 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Re: Congressional Quarterly Researcher: Autism, LD, Mercury
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2538.1 ---------------
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: awakening the will in homeless adults
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 07:44:59 -0700 (PDT)
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Is the base assumption that the study subjects have no
will? What is the scientific basis for that? They
are homeless because they have no "will" and you can
tell they have no "will" because they are homeless -
a.k.a. circular thinking, which explains nothing and
is considered a huge pitfall to avoid if one is
engaging in science. My primary problem with this,
however, is that it was Europeans who brought poverty
to this land mass; it did not exist here before they
came because the concepts of "property" and
individualism did not exist here. The indigenous
cultures were based on potlatch, which was outlawed by
the U.S. government until the early 1990's I believe.
Deborah
--- Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com) wrote:
) The shocking thing is the school this is coming out
) of. It figures it is a
) degree in Ed, which is a piece of garbage degree as
) far as I am concerned
) and this just gives more force to my belief. How
) pathetic.
)
) Also, it is ironic that this same school confers
) degrees in Applied
) Behavioral Analysis. If it was Douglas Greer, also
) at this school, rather
) than Douglas Sloan you would have something more
) substantive. What is the
) world coming too?
)
) --Rose
)
)
)
) At 10:01 PM 9/3/00 -0700, you wrote:
) )OK, so if you're advisor's Anthroposophist Douglas
) Sloan, you can get
) )a doctorate for doing a thesis about "awakening the
) will." Even if
) )the program appeared to be a failure (two out of
) seven "made
) )significant progress in will development), it's not
) that he was doing
) )the wrong thing, it's that he didn't do it long
) enough. (sarcasm)
) )
) )Interesting that Anthroposophical psychology was
) given the keyword
) )"education, religious".
) )
) )-Dan Dugan
) )
) )DATABASE: Dissertation Abstracts Online
) )
) ) ACCESSION NO.: AAG9939541
) ) TITLE: AWAKENING THE WILL IN HOMELESS
) ADULTS (MANHATTAN, RUDOLF
) ) STEINER, SUBSTANCE ABUSE,
) INTERPERSONAL CONFLICT)
) ) AUTHOR: REED, WAYNE ARTHUR
) ) DEGREE: ED.D.
) ) YEAR: 1999
) ) INSTITUTION: COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY TEACHERS
) COLLEGE; 0055
) ) ADVISER: Sponsor: DOUGLAS SLOAN
) ) SOURCE: DAI, VOL. 60-07A, Page 2439, 00204
) Pages
) ) DESCRIPTORS: EDUCATION, SOCIAL SCIENCES;
) EDUCATION, RELIGIOUS;
) ) EDUCATION, ADULT AND CONTINUING;
) EDUCATION, GUIDANCE AND
) ) COUNSELING
) )
) )The purpose of this study was to design a pedagogy
) which awakens the
) )will in a small group of homeless adults. This
) research tracked the
) )formation of a small group of adults from a
) Manhattan soup kitchen.
) )The group took part in a ten-week educational
) process which had as
) )its objective the building of will in those who
) participated. Seven
) )adults completed the process. Their biographical
) information,
) )involvement in the project, and their will
) development is reported in
) )the case study.
) )
) )The philosophical basis for the research is Rudolf
) Steiner's
) )understanding of the three-fold nature of the human
) being, the human
) )as willing, feeling and thinking. Drawing on
) Coenraad van Houten's
) )application of Steiner's philosophy to adult
) education, the
) )researcher constructed a multi-dimensional lesson
) plan which was
) )implemented in ten weekly sessions. At the
) conclusion of the study
) )the project was evaluated for its effectiveness in
) generating will in
) )the seven adults. The lesson plan was also analyzed
) and adaptations
) )were proposed.
) )By integrating interviews and participant
) observation this study
) )watched for the development of will in the
) participants during the
) )period. Physical and emotional signs of the will's
) presence were
) )documented. Each adult's progress was monitored by
) the researcher's
) )observations and the completion of an assessment
) tool created
) )especially for the project.
) )
) )Results indicated that two of the seven adults made
) significant
) )progress in will development during the ten weeks.
) Three others made
) )moderate progress and two demonstrated little
) improvement.
) )Interpersonal conflicts and substance abuse among
) the participants
) )were considered to be factors which influenced the
) outcome of the
) )research. Post research findings suggested that the
) educational model
) )would have been more effective if it had been
) implemented over a
) )longer period of time.
) )
) )
)
__________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2538.2 ---------------
From: David (waldorfedu home.com)
Subject: new to list
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 07:46:19 -0700
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Hi Iris,
I emphasize with your pain. I suffer from severe ptsd (post traumatic
stress disorder). In my case it is from experiences that happened as a
small child in wartime England. No child should have gone through what I
went through. I have kept it private all my life initially because I
couldnt understand what was happening to me, later on because I felt
that people could not understand unless they had gone through similar
experiences ? I would be interested in hearing about the lists you
mentioned for "ptsd people".
Re Waldorf ? I am committed to the methodology because I see here in
public schools in California a system that does very great harm to young
children ? trauma and even suicide have now been recorded (I have been
committed to public education all my life). However, I have been harshly
treated by Waldorf people (with a few exceptions in the UK over 20 years
ago) nearly all my life. If you want to read it go to:
members.home.net/waldorfedu/experiences.html
It is long though so you may want to be selective. IMO I find that
people on this list or the Waldorf survivors list do not care about
children. I find that both moderators act depending on who is posting. I
was unsubscribed from this list for telling one funny anecdote although
I have seen far far worse without any action. Apparently I was
unsubscribed from the survivors list without any notification or
anything else and I still have no idea why! If you are a sensitive soul
you may want to browse for some time until you realize how people are
treated and this probably depends on how much vituperation and invective
you are willing to spew out ? probably reasonable therapeutic processes
but very little to do with improving education. I obviously have been
misguided in believing that was something people may have been
interested in. Good luck and take care. David
)iris springflower (irisspringflower yahoo.com)
Subject: new to list
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 22:45:32 -0700 (PDT)
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Hi, I'm new to this list. A friend recommended it to
me an I am finding it very interesting.I live in an
area with LOTS of Waldorf people and I have had some
strange experiences with them. I felt hurt by some of
them because I felt they "looked down" on me because I
have Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from severe trauma
in my life and I made the mistake of trusting them
about it. I received victim-blaming and worse from
some of them and it HURT! One woman, a Waldorf
teacher, told someone else behind my back that she
"doesn't want to be around" people like me who are in
pain/trauma. I was very hurt when I was told about
this. I am NOT going to disclose my trauma, or other
personal information, on this list because I have
other specific support lists I am on for that. What I
DO have are some questions about Waldorf beliefs: Do
they believe that the following people are "inferior"?
--severely traumatized people, homeless and
chronically poor people, mentally and physically
disabled people. If they do, then I don't want
anything to do with them because I believe that
attitude to be cruel. I do feel, from my experiences
with many Waldorf people (they have a school here)
that they do look down upon others who are "not
enlightened" like they are. If the above is true
about them, then I will NOT take how they treated me
so personally. I will just tell myself that they are
acting out of their "cultic mindset" and not take them
so seriously. Your answers on the above would be
greatly appreciated.I, being of Jewish origin, also
have read about the Nazi Era. My recent interest is
about how the Nazis murdered mentally and physically
disabled people, calling their victims "useless".
Luke, I agree with you on your post about homeless
people. One thing I can't stand is victim blaming. I
believe strongly in COMPASSION and care for those who
are vulnerable and for those who suffer.You know, the
local Waldorf people I know here seem so "happy".
They seem afraid of acknowledging any so-called
"negative" emotions like pain, fear, and anger. I am
talking about normal fear, pain, and anger that many
people have. Or perhaps they don't share those
feelings with non-Waldorf people? I don't know. I
HAVE read about cult mind control and I wonder if this
makes any sense? My two children are grown now, but
when I first moved here, I actually felt "deprived" at
not being able to afford to send them to the Waldorf
school. At that time, some Waldorf people tried to
"recruit" us, but they stopped when I told them I
can't afford the time or money for their school. Now,
with the information on this list and on the web site,
I am relieved I couldn't send them there!Take care,
Iris S.
--
Regards
David
*********************************
Dr. David Mollet
Free lessons/newsletters for teachers/parents
http://members.aol.com/WERLessons
http://members.aol.com/WaldorfNew
waldorfedu home.com
In case you are interested, I would just like to pass this site on to
you. It is the Hunger Site supported by the U.N. All you do is click a
button and somewhere in the world some hungry person gets a meal at no
cost to you. The food is paid for by corporate sponsors who have their
logos on the site. You're only allowed one click per day.
http://www.thehungersite.com/index.html
*********************************
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2538.3 ---------------
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf consistent with African-American cultural patterns
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 07:56:53 -0700 (PDT)
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But they still won't teach anything about slavery
because it might upset the children, correct? (I also
heard from a Waldorf teacher that the female teachers
can only wear skirts and dresses, because women in
pants scares the children.) Anyway, as someone who
has been African-American for over 51 years and who
has read and is still reading Steiner's writings and
Waldorf school literature, I can attest absolutely
that there is nothing similar in the pedagogy or
anything else between A-A culture and Waldorf culture.
This is simply another attempt to assimilate people of
color and encourage us to collaborate in our own
destruction, which I understand from reading Steiner,
etal. is inevitable.
Deborah
--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
) A friend sent us this abstract:
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
) ACCESSION NO.: AAG9826734
) TITLE: BEYOND SURVIVAL: A CASE STUDY OF
) THE MILWAUKEE URBAN
) WALDORF SCHOOL (WISCONSIN, WALDORF
) EDUCATION)
) AUTHOR: WOOD, PHAIZON RHYS
) DEGREE: ED.D.
) YEAR: 1996
) INSTITUTION: UNIVERSITY OF SAN FRANCISCO; 6019
) ADVISER: Chairperson: ANITA P. DEFRANTZ
) SOURCE: DAI, VOL. 59-03A, Page 0703, 00240
) Pages
) DESCRIPTORS: EDUCATION, BILINGUAL AND
) MULTICULTURAL; EDUCATION,
) INTERCULTURAL; EDUCATION,
) PHILOSOPHY OF; BLACK STUDIES
)
) This case study examines the concept of cultural
) continuity as a
) contributing factor in the evaluation of effective
) educational
) programs for African-American children. The study
) focus is on the
) development and implementation of the first public
) Waldorf school
) serving inner-city children in the United States.
) The Waldorf
) approach to education was specifically created to
) facilitate social
) transformation and the development of free
) individuals. It is argued
) that its effectiveness is related to the clear
) identification of an
) educational goal addressing the need to prepare
) these children for
) leadership within the social and political context
) of cultural
) domination and White supremacy within the United
) States. The Urban
) Waldorf School was the only elementary school in the
) Milwaukee Public
) School system to demonstrate gains in reading
) achievement for third-
) grade students, as well as positive gains in a
) number of nonacademic
) measures. An analysis of these results suggests some
) of the benefits
) and limitations in implementing Waldorf education
) with this
) population. The study includes an extensive
) literature review of the
) historical, social, psychological, political, and
) critical
) pedagogical contributions to an understanding of the
) institutional
) barriers to achieving human freedom existent within
) the educational
) realm. The review supports the finding that
) approaches to the
) education of African-American children that are
) designed to be
) consistent with African-American cultural patterns
) prove to be
) effective on a variety of measures. Waldorf methods
) were compared and
) found to contain the same culturally consistent
) approaches and
) pedagogies as those cited in the literature as most
) effective and
) that facilitate children who are participants in
) their own
) empowerment. A critical need is for the development
) of an American
) curriculum--an updated curriculum, consistent with
) the Waldorf
) philosophy and pedagogy, that connects
) African-American children with
) their cultural past as well as their lived reality
) in the present.
) The Waldorf approach to education, with these
) selected and
) appropriate curricular modifications, is identified
) as a promising
) model for educational and social transformation.
) This educational
) system represents an effective, long-term response
) to the structural
) and institutional barriers to rehumanizing the
) process of schooling
) in the United States.
__________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2538.4 ---------------
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: stereotypes
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 08:01:14 -0700 (PDT)
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The Waldorfers in this community don't confine this
labelling to just the school environment. It is a
part of how they judge everyone and therefore dispense
with having to listen to anyone outside their group.
Anyone who attempts to confront them is labelled
"negative," depressed and in need of healing. If you
lie down too long they start putting their "healing"
hands on you - a lot of them are massage therapists -
and describe what chakra level you're on.
Deborah
--- Lisa Ercolano (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
) Thanks, Luke: I realize you (like most of us here!)
) have a life besides the
) list and that it takes time to respond to questions,
) queries and various
) topics that might interest us!
)
) I am very much interested in the stereotyping that
) goes on in Waldorf
) schools vis a vis categorizing a child by
) "temperment," etc. My older girl
) was labelled "melancholic" from the first week of
) preschool ... and that
) view of her followed her everywhere she went, in
) whatever she did. I found
) that when asked about this, teachers would take
) umbrage and go on and on
) about how "the temperments are a great way of
) understanding the children,
) etc."
)
) As far as I could see, the "temperments" were just
) another way of stripping
) the children of their individuality until such time
) as Steiner said that
) they were ready to develop their individual egos or
) "I"s.
)
) The most intriguing aspect of this is the way
) Waldorf schools advertise
) themselves -- as places were each child is nurtured
) and respected for who he
) or she is. Ha!
)
) Please, Luke, tell us more -- whenever you have the
) time.
)
) Lisa
)
)
) )From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
) )To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
) )Subject: Re: stereotypes
) )Date: Sun, Sep 3, 2000, 7:56 PM
) )
)
) )
) ) --- Lisa Ercolano (momof2gals mindspring.com)
) wrote:
) ) (snip)
) )) Lisa: Luke, could you give us some examples of
) this?
) ) (snip)
) )
) ) I am not ignoring your query, I intend to respond
) but I want to
) ) give the response the time and thought it
) deserves.
) )
) ) I am glad you began an thread on stereotypes:
) anthroposophy and
) ) waldorf is greatly concerned with ordering and
) controlling, and
) ) few things are as effective a means of social and
) thought
) ) control as stereotypes (a/k/a "archetypes").
) )
) ) Luke
) )
) ) __________________________________________________
) ) Do You Yahoo!?
) ) Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from
) anywhere!
) ) http://mail.yahoo.com/
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2538.5 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Anthroposophy and Nazism: The Thule Society
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 10:11:28 -0700 (PDT)
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On 9/04/00 I inadvertently sent the following to the list
without a title; I am resending it with a title for ease of
reference (or possible responses):
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-
Many list members may already be aware of this
interestingarticle published at
http://www.teol.lu.se/theologicum/student/papers/ted.html
as I have seen references to the information contained in the
excerpt below elsewhere. The article is an interesting one;
although I do not have time to finish it tonight, it seems
intelligent, balanced and lacking in venom or vitriol.
"From the 1920s Hitlers commandos ruthlessly attacked and
killed adherents of Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Freemasons and
others who shared the same occult doctrines; he banned their
groups from the Third Reich, and publicly denounced occultists
such as Rudolf Steiner and Allister Crowley. This can be easily
understood, however, in terms of perceived threat; Hitler simply
recognized occult power in each of the banned groups which could
be used to rival his own "'Thule Society", and eliminated them
from the field. Those occult groups who presented no threat he
left alone. It is also possible that Hitler was determined to
keep the Thule Societys roots hidden from the general public;
the groups and individuals he targeted for elimination were
those who knew of those roots (and who might disclose him). This
would explain why the Nazis burned every available book of Thule
Society founder Rudolf Heinrich von Sebottendorf, which spoke of
those roots, why they confiscated all the books of the occult
groups they outlawed, and why Rudolf Hesss defection to the
England in 1941 prompted Hitler to outlaw all remaining
occultists in the Third Reich, such as astrologers, mediums -
even parlor magicians."
--I do not know if I agree with the inference about Rudolf
Hess's defection. I rather suspect he defected *because* he
knew he had lost Hitler's favor. However, this does not
necessarily change the conclusion that as a result of whatever
the precipitating event(s) that lead to Hess's fall from grace,
Hitler generalized his mistrust and disfavor to all occultists
and occultism outside Nazism.
Luke
__________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2538.6 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: new to list
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 10:08:28 -0700
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References: (200009051446.HAA11844 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009051446.HAA11844 lists1.best.com)
David Mollet, you wrote,
)Re Waldorf ? I am committed to the methodology because I see here in
)public schools in California a system that does very great harm to young
)children ? trauma and even suicide have now been recorded (I have been
)committed to public education all my life).
Your argument for Waldorf always includes bashing public schools. As
if bad, yea worse, things didn't happen in Waldorf, due to the lack
of teacher training and old-boys-club supervision, that results in
tolerance of abusive teachers. Did you know violence in public
schools has been decreasing steadily for many years?
)IMO I find that
)people on this list or the Waldorf survivors list do not care about
)children.
This ad hominem calls for an apology, David.
)I find that both moderators act depending on who is posting. I
)was unsubscribed from this list for telling one funny anecdote although
)I have seen far far worse without any action.
You were given a time-out for posting a completely off-topic joke.
I'm still tolerating you now, despite your personal insults and
wilful ignorance of list manners (note your unnecessary quoting of
the entire message you replied to, and your too-long signature file).
-Dan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2538.7 ---------------
From: iris springflower (irisspringflower yahoo.com)
Subject: thanks, Dan
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 17:35:42 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi, Thanks for your caring reply, Dan. I probably
won't get involved in any arguments here. I will
mostly read the posts for my information about
Waldorf. I thought the Waldorf Survivors list was
ONLY for those who were actually a PART of the Waldorf
system: former Waldorf parents and students.
I was NEVER a part of Waldorf. I just trusted those
who are. I want to remain on this list and if I feel
overwhelmed, I will just not read the things that
trigger hurt feelings in me. I am learning a LOT just
by reading the posts here.
I was in another New Age Lifestlye cult that I have
left, so I Do have "cult issues". I check the
anti-cult websites regularly.
Take care, Iris
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2538.8 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: thanks, Dan
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 19:06:24 -0800
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In-Reply-To: (200009060036.RAA24820 lists1.best.com)
)Hi, Thanks for your caring reply, Dan. I probably
)won't get involved in any arguments here. I will
)mostly read the posts for my information about
)Waldorf. I thought the Waldorf Survivors list was
)ONLY for those who were actually a PART of the Waldorf
)system: former Waldorf parents and students.
[Debra]
Hi Iris. The Waldorf Survivors list is limited to those who have had very
negative experiences as part of Waldorf _and_ are either _trying_ to get
out of the system, or are already out.
)I was NEVER a part of Waldorf. I just trusted those
)who are. I want to remain on this list and if I feel
)overwhelmed, I will just not read the things that
)trigger hurt feelings in me. I am learning a LOT just
)by reading the posts here.
[Debra]
Yes, this list was designed as an educational forum. I'm glad to hear that
it is serving you well.
)I was in another New Age Lifestlye cult that I have
)left, so I Do have "cult issues". I check the
)anti-cult websites regularly.
[Debra]
I have a good friend who was in a cult for 23 years. She even built a house
on the property. She'll never recoup her financial and emotiona;l losses,
but she is gaining back herself. It takes a lot of work, doesn't it?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2538.9 ---------------
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: new to list
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 22:58:16 EDT
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In a message dated 9/5/00 11:01:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
waldorfedu home.com writes:
David Mollet writes:
) IMO I find that
) people on this list or the Waldorf survivors list do not care about
) children.
(Yawn) When you have anything of substance to say, please do (I'm not holding
my breath). Otherwise keep your lame-ass, false assertions to yourself.
(snip)
If you are a sensitive soul
) you may want to browse for some time until you realize how people are
) treated and this probably depends on how much vituperation and invective
) you are willing to spew out ?
...and, Iris, how much BS you're willing to stomach!
Ray
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2538.10 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Re: Congressional Quarterly Researcher: Autism, LD, Mercury
Poisoning
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 21:23:40 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (200009041856.LAA07053 lists1.best.com)
(200009041856.LAA07053 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009050750.AAA22476 lists1.best.com)
Thanks for your references. I will look into the thimoersal thing and see
if it could be an issue with my son.
I know that childhood diseases are more dangerous in developing countries
where children die everyday of diarrhea and other maladies that are not
really seen here in the U.S. except in very poor impovished condidtions.
--Rose
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2538 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2539 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - anthroposophical thoughts
002 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2g - Re: anthroposophical thoughts
003 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: anthroposophical thoughts
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2539.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: anthroposophical thoughts
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:04:49 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Just for fun, here's a translation from the German Anthropop magazine
-Die Drei- from an interview with Jelle van der Meulen, publisher of
the Dutch edition of Steiner's work:
"[Q:] How would you respond to the argument that anthroposophists are
dogmatic, are incapable of critique and self-critique, because they
have put Rudolf Steiner on a pedestal?"
"[A:] I completely agree with this argument, but it needs
elaboration. For me the question is not whether Steiner was "without
error." In my eyes, he -must- have been prepared to make mistakes,
because he wanted to act out of freedom. And if we are prepared to
make mistakes, we do in fact then make mistakes. For me, Steiner's
greatness lies just in the fact that he, as an initiate, united
himself with the errors of his contemporaries. In this respect he
followed Parsifal, the new leader of the sun mysteries. In this fact
there is concealed a freeing paradox: Steiner's readiness to make
mistakes created the possibility of developing a free relationship to
him as the representative of new mysteries."
[Rudolf Steiner Library Newsletter #24, June, 2000, p. 9]
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2539.2 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: anthroposophical thoughts
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 08:48:44 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Say what? (g)
Lisa
----------
)From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)Subject: anthroposophical thoughts
)Date: Tue, Sep 5, 2000, 11:04 PM
)
) Just for fun, here's a translation from the German Anthropop magazine
) -Die Drei- from an interview with Jelle van der Meulen, publisher of
) the Dutch edition of Steiner's work:
)
) "[Q:] How would you respond to the argument that anthroposophists are
) dogmatic, are incapable of critique and self-critique, because they
) have put Rudolf Steiner on a pedestal?"
)
) "[A:] I completely agree with this argument, but it needs
) elaboration. For me the question is not whether Steiner was "without
) error." In my eyes, he -must- have been prepared to make mistakes,
) because he wanted to act out of freedom. And if we are prepared to
) make mistakes, we do in fact then make mistakes. For me, Steiner's
) greatness lies just in the fact that he, as an initiate, united
) himself with the errors of his contemporaries. In this respect he
) followed Parsifal, the new leader of the sun mysteries. In this fact
) there is concealed a freeing paradox: Steiner's readiness to make
) mistakes created the possibility of developing a free relationship to
) him as the representative of new mysteries."
)
) [Rudolf Steiner Library Newsletter #24, June, 2000, p. 9]
)
) -Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2539.3 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: anthroposophical thoughts
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:24:28 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Lisa Ercolano (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
) Say what? (g)
)
) Lisa
I think the idea, Lisa, is that while it *appears* that Steiner
made egregious mistakes (such as racism) that discredit either
him and/or his idealogy, this is not in fact the case because he
was really above all that but chose to purposely make mistakes
so he could be a real man of his times and therefor be more
effective as their spiritual guide.(*)
Following this?? If not, then all is well with your intellect.
Luke
(*)This is part of the scary argument that in order to be an
effective spiritual leader, you must be "all things to all
people", even *bad* people (who are not really bad, they just
seem to be, as in Ruprecht, the scary ogre who is St. Nicholas'
assistant).
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2539 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2540 --------------
001 - Detlef Hardorp (hardorp g - P.R. Koenig
002 - Deborah Kelly (deborah_ke - Re: anthroposophical thoughts
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2540.1 ---------------
From: Detlef Hardorp (hardorp gmx.net)
Subject: P.R. Koenig
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 20:01:43 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I never did like talking about people behind their backs. So I forwarded Lucky Miller's musings about P.R. Koenig Re: OTO and Rudolf Steiner, Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 18:37:43 -0700) to Mr. Koenig, adding that I would be happy to post a reponse. Here it is:
(D. Hardorp)
Dear Cybercitizens
data on me can be found at http://home.sunrise.ch/~prkoenig/light.htm
I am neither pro or contra Anthroposophy: it's part of my research on the OTO.
Sincerely
P.R. Koenig
http://www.cyberlink.ch/~koenig
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2540.2 ---------------
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: anthroposophical thoughts
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:43:55 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Does this mean that the most evil person who ever
lived, can be not so bad, or that those who follow
him/her can be not so bad, no matter how their evil
manifests because it is simply and error? Were
leaders of the Khmer Rouge(sp?) simply making errors?
What then of those who didn't make errors that
resulted in slaughter or the justification of
slaughter (ie. Steiner's philosophy)?
Deborah
--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
) Just for fun, here's a translation from the German
) Anthropop magazine
) -Die Drei- from an interview with Jelle van der
) Meulen, publisher of
) the Dutch edition of Steiner's work:
)
) "[Q:] How would you respond to the argument that
) anthroposophists are
) dogmatic, are incapable of critique and
) self-critique, because they
) have put Rudolf Steiner on a pedestal?"
)
) "[A:] I completely agree with this argument, but it
) needs
) elaboration. For me the question is not whether
) Steiner was "without
) error." In my eyes, he -must- have been prepared to
) make mistakes,
) because he wanted to act out of freedom. And if we
) are prepared to
) make mistakes, we do in fact then make mistakes. For
) me, Steiner's
) greatness lies just in the fact that he, as an
) initiate, united
) himself with the errors of his contemporaries. In
) this respect he
) followed Parsifal, the new leader of the sun
) mysteries. In this fact
) there is concealed a freeing paradox: Steiner's
) readiness to make
) mistakes created the possibility of developing a
) free relationship to
) him as the representative of new mysteries."
)
) [Rudolf Steiner Library Newsletter #24, June, 2000,
) p. 9]
)
) -Dan Dugan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2540 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2541 --------------
001 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: P.R. Koenig
002 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: P.R. Koenig
003 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: anthroposophical thoughts
004 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: post-CAN cult wars
005 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Admin: changing list to egroups Oct. 1
006 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Admin: changing list to egroups Oct. 1
007 - "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik - Re: Admin: changing list to egroups Oct. 1
008 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Admin: changing list to egroups Oct. 1
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2541.1 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: P.R. Koenig
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 11:37:00 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Detlef Hardorp (hardorp gmx.net) wrote:
) I never did like talking about people behind their backs
(snip)
a public posting to a list is hardly talking about people behind
their backs.
You are simply indulging in the favorite anthroposophical blood
sport of creating confrontations, as usual under the guise of
some "altruistic" good.
Luke
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2541.2 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: P.R. Koenig
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 11:40:55 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Detlef Hardorp (hardorp gmx.net) wrote:
(snip)
) I forwarded Lucky Miller's musings about P.R. Koenig Re: OTO
) and Rudolf Steiner, Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 18:37:43 -0700) to
) Mr. Koenig, adding that I would be happy to post a reponse.
Why doesn't "P. R. Koenig" post his *own* reponse??? He can
subscribe and immediately unsubscribe, if he doesn't wish to
deign us with his exalted presence on the list for any length of
time. This seems a bit silly.
Luke
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2541.3 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: anthroposophical thoughts
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 11:46:50 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com) wrote:
) Does this mean that the most evil person who ever
) lived, can be not so bad, or that those who follow
) him/her can be not so bad, no matter how their evil
) manifests because it is simply and error? Were
) leaders of the Khmer Rouge(sp?) simply making errors?
) What then of those who didn't make errors that
) resulted in slaughter or the justification of
) slaughter (ie. Steiner's philosophy)?
) (snip)
It gets worse than that: errors and evil are actually good (not
my belief) because they teach us necessary spiritual lessons and
prevent us from entering into spiritual realms for which we are
unsuited (the doppelganger as guardian of the threshold into the
spiritual world, preventing us from entering into it unless and
until we are "worthy). Errors and evil create pain, and pain is
"the great teacher" in anthroposophy.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2541.4 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: post-CAN cult wars
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 12:13:57 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
)
) from the San Francisco Chronicle
)
)
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/05/01/MN88385.DTL
)
) Combatants in Cult War Attempt Reconciliation
) Peacemaking conference is held near Seattle
)
) Don Lattin, Chronicle Religion Writer
)
) Monday, May 1, 2000
)
)
)
) Seattle -- They're calling it the ``Camp David of the cult
) wars.''
)
and we've seen just how successful the Camp David approach has
been in resolving the Kosovo conflict and the Middle East
conflict (I don't think they ever did the Camp David Dance for
Northern Ireland, but that hasn't budged a whole lot
regardless).
(snip)
) sponsored by the American Family
) Foundation and titled ``Cults and the Millennium.''
(snip)
) the other camp in the cult wars
) --
) scholars (snip) who argue that most
) religious sects
) are relatively harmless and that the crusade against them
) violates
) constitutional guarantees of religious freedom.
"scholars" like Douglas Sloane??? Hardly unbiased. But my
impression so far is that it is the sociologists who have
largely spearheaded this current trendy belief, and they are
hardly qualified to pronounce upon the theological,
philosophical, psychological, medical, pedagogical, economic or
political aspects and ramifications.
It appears to me that the cults have been successful in their
strategy to overcome objections (a common sales technique) by
acquiring for themselves the "stamp of approval" of academia by
representing themselves as "victims".
) Anti-cult activists warned of ``brainwashing'' and ``mind
) control,''
) while their opponents tell tales of violent kidnapping and
) coercive
) ``deprogramming.''
I agree that any coercive measures are abhorrent and that there
have been excesses on both sides; that does *not*, however, mean
that "both sides are equally right" or that "both sides are
equally wrong" or that there is no such thing as a cult, or that
just because "all early religious movements are cultlike" means
that there is no danger or that the dangers should be ignored,
or that *all* critics of cults are guilty of prejudice and/or
violating constitutional rights.
There has been a systematic and across the board effort to
silence critics of cults by all sorts of intimidation, including
threatened and actual harm. This does not betoken an innocent
victim.
Luke
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2541.5 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: changing list to egroups Oct. 1
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 11:23:40 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Dear friends,
I'm going to change this list to egroups.com on October 1. That will
enable me to close my old $30/month best.com account that is now
hosting only the list, not worth it.
It will still work the same, i.e. it will be an email list, not a web
board, but archives will be instantly available on the web site.
There will undoubtedly be some glitches in the transition, I'm sure
you'll be patient.
-Dan Dugan
Moderator
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2541.6 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Admin: changing list to egroups Oct. 1
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 16:18:45 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (200009092231.PAA23832 lists1.best.com)
Dan,
I can understand why we'd go to the free space, but I'll miss this
advertisement-free list. After dealing with all of the advertising on
e-groups with the Survivors list, I'm actually starting to consider
apartment hunting in Phoenex, and I live in the California Gold Country! :+)
Debra
Dear friends,
)
)I'm going to change this list to egroups.com on October 1. That will
)enable me to close my old $30/month best.com account that is now
)hosting only the list, not worth it.
)
)It will still work the same, i.e. it will be an email list, not a web
)board, but archives will be instantly available on the web site.
)
)There will undoubtedly be some glitches in the transition, I'm sure
)you'll be patient.
)
)-Dan Dugan
)Moderator
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2541.7 ---------------
From: "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik cybertrails.com)
Subject: Re: Admin: changing list to egroups Oct. 1
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 23:37:45 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (200009092313.QAA07830 lists1.best.com)
Hey Deb,
Phoenix is not such a bad place if you like "dry" heat. Take care
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Debra Snell" (snell netshel.net)
To: (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: Admin: changing list to egroups Oct. 1
) Dan,
) I can understand why we'd go to the free space, but I'll miss this
) advertisement-free list. After dealing with all of the advertising on
) e-groups with the Survivors list, I'm actually starting to consider
) apartment hunting in Phoenex, and I live in the California Gold Country!
:+)
)
) Debra
)
)
) Dear friends,
) )
) )I'm going to change this list to egroups.com on October 1. That will
) )enable me to close my old $30/month best.com account that is now
) )hosting only the list, not worth it.
) )
) )It will still work the same, i.e. it will be an email list, not a web
) )board, but archives will be instantly available on the web site.
) )
) )There will undoubtedly be some glitches in the transition, I'm sure
) )you'll be patient.
) )
) )-Dan Dugan
) )Moderator
)
)
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2541.8 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Admin: changing list to egroups Oct. 1
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 00:10:58 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009092313.QAA07830 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009092313.QAA07830 lists1.best.com)
Debra Snell wrote:
)Dan,
)I can understand why we'd go to the free space, but I'll miss this
)advertisement-free list. After dealing with all of the advertising on
)e-groups with the Survivors list, I'm actually starting to consider
)apartment hunting in Phoenex, and I live in the California Gold Country! :+)
You have a point there, Debra. I hadn't thought about the ads. What
do others think?
-Dan Dugan
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2541 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2542 --------------
001 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2g - Re: Admin: changing list to egroups Oct. 1
002 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - EMail from list user - waldorf-critics
003 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Admin: changing list to egroups Oct. 1
004 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2g - Re: Admin: changing list to egroups Oct. 1
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2542.1 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Admin: changing list to egroups Oct. 1
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:33:24 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Strangely enough, I haven't noticed any ads, though others have mentioned
them. egroups sent those of us who are moderators/owners of groups a notice
saying that the messages would contain banner ads, and giving us the option
of getting rid of them for a monthly fee ($30 comes to mind.) I think it is
quite easy to ignore ads ... and having the service free is worth it. But
that is only one woman's opinion!
Lisa
----------
)From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)Subject: Re: Admin: changing list to egroups Oct. 1
)Date: Sun, Sep 10, 2000, 3:10 AM
)
) Debra Snell wrote:
)
))Dan,
))I can understand why we'd go to the free space, but I'll miss this
))advertisement-free list. After dealing with all of the advertising on
))e-groups with the Survivors list, I'm actually starting to consider
))apartment hunting in Phoenex, and I live in the California Gold Country! :+)
)
) You have a point there, Debra. I hadn't thought about the ads. What
) do others think?
)
) -Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2542.2 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: EMail from list user - waldorf-critics
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:35:15 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
:From steffi.sannemann-damstrom kolumbus.fi Sun Sep 10
)I am a religious-teacher, wanted to become a nun before I met my great =
)love. Put my both daughters into the Steiner-school, as it is the most =
)christian school I could find in Finland.
Really? I find that hard to believe. I assume you have Catholic and
Protestant schools in Finland. Perhaps your definition of
Christianity differs from mine.
)I judge according to the Words of Christ! No human can alter the bible: =
)Love and tolerance is the definition according to the II Vatican Concil. =
Are you a Catholic? I understand that in 1919 the Pope warned
Catholics to stay away from Steiner's philosophy.
)I doubt YOUR christianity
If you're speaking to me, you're correct, I'm a secular humanist. But
PLANS counts many Christians among our members, friends, and
supporters.
)- how could you otherwise write such rubbisch! =
I'd like to know what writing in particular you are incensed about.
)My children don't get brain-washed ore indangeroud at the =
)Steiner-school!
I wouldn't be so sure of that.
)Many average-christians might be funny in their =
)religion, and I often smile because of their pretending christinaity, =
)but this is UNCHRISTIAN! Where is your love?
My love is right where it belongs. One thing I love is the truth, and
that is why seeing Waldorf schools pretend to be Christian (when they
are talking to Christians) offends me. There are very few Christians
who agree with Rudolf Steiner's version of Christianity. How much do
you know about it?
Sincerely, Dan Dugan
Secretary, PLANS
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2542.3 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Admin: changing list to egroups Oct. 1
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:09:18 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009102133.OAA17130 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009102133.OAA17130 lists1.best.com)
Lisa, is there an option to turn off the [list name] in the Subject:
field? I hate that.
-Dan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2542.4 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Admin: changing list to egroups Oct. 1
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:32:07 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
You're talking about egroups, right? I think there is, Dan. Go to the
settings feature, and there are various boxes that say "edit" near the
settings you have put in. There should be one where you can at least shorten
the list name to initials. I am not sure if you can turn them off
altogether. Let me know if this works.
Lisa
----------
)From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)Subject: Re: Admin: changing list to egroups Oct. 1
)Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000, 12:09 PM
)
) Lisa, is there an option to turn off the [list name] in the Subject:
) field? I hate that.
)
) -Dan
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2542 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2543 --------------
001 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - French Parliamentary Report of 1999 WAS: Re: anti-cult legisla
002 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: P.R. Koenig
003 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: P.R. Koenig
004 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede -
005 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Stereotypes and Anthroposophy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2543.1 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: French Parliamentary Report of 1999 WAS: Re: anti-cult legislation proposed in France:2nd set of 10
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:29:45 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com) wrote:
) Excerpt from the 1995 Report of the Parliamentary
) Commission on Cults at
)
http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/2/cenq/rap-enq/r2468.htm#page12
(snip)
This report also has several mentions about Anthroposophy: I
have been taking my time translating these over the past months
bit by bit. I've finally finished everything but the material in
the Appendix, which is mostly analysis of survey data, etc., and
which I will have to get to later.
I haven't printed it out and edited it yet, although I have
edited it as I have gone along. If there are any corrections to
be made, I will post them.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Excerpts pertaining to Anthroposophy taken from the official
website located at
http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/2/dossiers/sectes/r1687p1.htm
:
EXCERPTS FROM PART I
(1) Regarding The Tendency for Diffusion and Nondifferentiation:
"b) A tendancy for undifferentiation [diffusion]
"Cult movements have been undergoing a process of relative
despecialization or undifferentiation. The borders among
categories have become much less rigid. More and more one finds
diverse elements under the umbrella of one cult. Thus,
alternative healers and psycholanalysts have won expansion of
their own individual primary objectives as elements of other
movements. Since these objectives yield particularly lucrative
activities, many sister movements have sought to unify
themselves furthermore on the basis of their principal objective
. One could therefor easily describe the prototypical modern
cult as that which allows the integration of the maximum number
of different themes.
"Thus, Scientology and the two shadowy movements called
Prima Vera and Anthroposophy -- both of which will be
encountered several times throughout this report -- offer a
complete [whole world] ideology out of which they create a
hypermarket of cult products: conferences, courses, seminars of
personal development, professional training classes, products
claiming to cure AIDS and baldness, spiritual sessions that
[purportedly] put you in communication with angels, the missing,
gods of all sorts; they claim to be able to save your business
if it is in economic trouble, or your family if it suffers from
noncommunication among its members; they claim to be able to
help you rid yourself of your enemies, and, of course, to make
you rich -- but all at fees and costs that become progressively
monstrous...
"This tendency to nondifferentiation manifests itself most
often as the addition early on of a new age or therapeutic
component to a group originally of a different type [i.e.,
'hyjacking' an organization and/or group and converting it into
a different organization by interjecting new age or therapeutic
aspects into it].
"The process of nonspecialization is accompanied by networks
which gravitate to/at the periphery of cults, called
'affiliates' [or friends] often taking the status of commercial
corporations and by the infiltration of those enterprises where
a follower occupies a strategic position."
(2) Regarding Omission in 1995 Report and Inclusion in 1999
Report:
"Organizations not revealed in the preceeding report [of
1995] but which fill certain of the cult criteria retained in
the report of 1995 (2), and which have also acquired a definite
economic and financial heft, have been pointed out to the
Commission. In view of the information received, the Commission
has desired to include them in its field of investigations:
this was the case, for example, with the Ancient and Mystical
Order of the Rose Cross (AMORC), Anthroposophy, Prima Verba, At
The Heart of Communication (ACC) and Stop Cancer."
(3) Regarding The New Brotherly Economy [NEF] and Bank:
"The network of Anthroposophy consists also of two
financial structures in the form of the New Brotherly Economy
[NEF] and the Financial Society of the New Brotherly Economy.
The first is an association created for the purpose of
experiencing the 'economic and financial assistance relations
based, in particular, on a transparent circulation of money
enlightened by an altruistic consciousness'. The second is a
banking organisation created in the form of a cooperative
corporation affiliated with the Central Bank of Cooperative
Credit. Approved by the Bank of France in 1988, it is empowered
to receive capital and savings, and can approve loans. The
association receives withholdings, gifts and subsidies
(emanating from the Foundation of France, the Enterprise
Foundation of MACIF or from the General Delegation for
Innovation and Social Economy). Its annual income, estimated at
800,000 francs [approximately $180,000] in 1994, permits it to
make an equalizing subsidy [?] to its financial society arm.
These resources are also used to attract creditors and to
finance projects. We are speaking, then, of preliminary aid
[seed money] which is destined to assure the success of those
programs [and entities] to whom the financial society decides to
award loans. The social capital of the financial society in 1994
reached the level of 9.3 million francs [approximately
$2,180,000] and at that same period it was projected that their
capital would increase to 15 million francs [approximately
$3,513,000]. The bank offered two financial products: long term
deposit accounts and NEF-Cooperative Credit passbook savings
accounts the characteristics of which were close to the "livret
A"[*] of the savings banks [I believe these are social security
accounts; I have not yet been able to find a definition or
explanation of "livret A" anywhere on the internet so far]. In
1994 the bank disposed of competitive savings of 13 million
franks [approximately $3,050,000] for long-term accounts and 10
million franks [approximately $2,350,000] for the passbook
savings accounts ."
EXCERPTS FROM PART II:
(1) Regarding Commercialization:
"d) The techniques for commercialization of doctrines.
"We know fairly well the traditional techniques, inaugurated
and developed by Jehovah's Witnesses and princiapally relying
upon house-to-house calls. For many years, the followers of this
movement have been obligated to put in a minimum number of hours
of evangilization, by the week or by the month, and to hand out
a maximum number of publications revealing and commenting on
their doctrine. This obligation is accompanied by required
detailed reporting of their activity and the results, as a means
of guaranteeing efficacy. The formation of followers with a view
toward training them to this task, to call them regularly to
their duties and to motivate them to obtain ever better results,
is ensured at the centeral level, at Louviers, by regular
training sessions for believers who are then immediately sent on
their mission into the field.
"Their zeal is most certainly heightened by the concept of
status according to which only those followers who are the most
worthy can hope to be counted among the very small number of
Elect the day of the final judgment. But the technique of
Jehovah's Witnesses has been surpassed in sophistication by the
much more elaborate methods of more recent movements.
"These methods can be classified into 4 categories, which
will later be illustrated, each successively more significant:
the technique of 'participatory offering' (Mahikari), that of
the 'chain of tariffs of excellence' (Scientology), that of
'modelling the success of the leader [guru]' (Mahikari), and,
finally, that of 'financial brotherhood' (Anthroposophy).
"-- The Technique of 'Participatory Offering' :
"This technique consists of sophisticating to the extreme the
discourse on money solicited from followers and complicating to
the maximum the qualification of their contributions.
"The members of the cult make offerings for objectives the
realization of which they are invited to participarte in.
"The discourse of the "Doshis" (missionaries of Mahikari)
explain that 'each situation in life corresponds to an offering:
when one is happy, unhappy, acknowledging ... the more one makes
offerings, the more one compensates for ones impurities by work
for others at the center, for God, for one's ancestors, the more
one will avoid problems in the future'.
"Donations are divisible into two main categories: horizontal
offerings that serve to finance the operations of the center,
and vertical offerings, which in turn can be classified as:
- thanks for received enlightenment,
-offering to ask forgiveness for the impurities
accumulated by one's ancestors
-offering for the monthly feast of thanks to God
-offering for social protection, itself subdivided
into two offerings of request and one of thankfulness
-offering to maintain the spiritual tie created by the
intermediary of the medallion which transmits the light
-offering to build and maintain the sancutary and the
founder's museum
"--The technique of 'financial brotherhood' [Anthroposophy]
"This technique consist of convincing followers to place their
money in a special organization as a granting of gifts for
projects or for aid which would not be financed in normal
banking circles.
"Followers who make such deposits are promised higher interest
rates to those on the market and the follower who wishes to
borrow is able to obtain loans not otherwise available [because
the borrower would not be able to qualify under banking laws and
practices].
"Naturally, in the cult universe this all takes place in a
discourse which seeks to be warm and enfolding, as is evidenced
by the descriptive literature of the 'New Brotherly Economy',
an Anthroposophical financial society:
'The association was created by teachers, farmers, doctors,
artists, business leaders who wanted to experience
among themselves and within their institutions the new
forms of fiancial and economic mutual assistance
beyond the boundaries of categorical mutuality [?]...With
the money received from gifts which we have made
an effort to gather (withholdings and donations to the fund
from supporters of our cause), the association
intervenes to aid and counsel those initiatives which
neither competitive banks nor billed services can raise'.
"At the end of 1994, NEF's capital had increased to 9,300,000
francs [approximately $2,180,000], its savings assets was 13
million francs [approximately $3,050,000] for long term deposits
and 10 million francs [approximately $2,350,000] for savings
passbooks.
"This last technique [that of Anthroposophy] shows us that
certain cults surpass the traditional ways that the [cult]
phenomena has functioned: this technique places itself much more
in the field of [common] commercial financial institutions and
businesses than is usual of cult associations.
"Cults, in addition, have left their pseudo-religious
boundaries to invest in the economic sectors within their reach:
education, health and professional training."
(2) Regarding Education and The Recruitment of Children:
"B. The Educational Sector
"It is in the nature itself of the cult movements to try to
intervene in the educational domain since to do so offers
considerable possibilities for expansion and proselysation.
"The recruitment of children has already been revealed by
the preceeding investigaion [in 1995], which reported 28
organizations characterised by this practice.
"This phenomena appears to be as emphasized as ever
[s'etre]: it emerges from the information gathered by the
Commission that approximately 60 cult movements seek in multiple
ways to intervene in the lives of children. One can estimate
today that about 50,000 children are under cult influence in
varying degree and kind; that about 500 minors live in closed
communities and that about 6,000 children are astreints to
academics which are outside the norm.
"Thus, several cult movements refuse to enroll their
children in schools and dispense their own education to them,
sometimes consisting of correspondence courses. This is notably
the case with The Family (formerly Children of God), the French
Federation for Krishna Consciousness, The Farm (formerly
Tabitha's Place), Horus, and Ogyen Kunzang Choling.
"Other organizations make a conscious effort to infiltrate
the world of childhood by the formula of courses and seminars in
the area of leisure but also via academic support and cultural
development. This is notably the case with Anthropos[ophy?]
(stages for "mental activation"), Silva Mind Control (seminars
for improving academic performance), Invitation To Life
(pilgrimmages and artistic activites for children), the Grail
Movement (seminars on the subject of sexuality and
spirituality), the Cultural Office of Cluny (numerous seminars
and lessons in the artistic domain) and Transcendental
Meditation (which has created a structure for "child meditators"
and offers courses for the purpose of "knowing one's interior
better".
"In most of these cases, the prosylization aimed at children
and the early recruitment of future followers does not translate
itself notably into the economic or financial plane. That is why
the Commission has not wished to develop this subject to the
extent it would otherwise merit, taking into account the gravity
of the psychic and physical menace and attacks that the cult
mouvance represents to minors. The Commission points out the the
importance of this and calls the attention of the government to
the necessity to prolong the examination of the question, toward
which the Minster of the Interior proceeded in December 1998 by
the definition of a politics adapted to the protection of
childhood.
"Cults have made their entrance into the field of education by
three principal paths:
- recruitment of teachers
- commercialization of educational methods
- taking control of establishments
"On the other hand, recruitment of [mother's aides?]
[assistantes maternelles] can be a problem.
(3) Regarding The Establishment of Educational Institutions:
"3. Controlled Establishments
"Three important cult movements, Anthroposophy, Scientology
and the Raelian Movement, are anxious to create or to take
control of private, non-contractual [hors contrat] teaching
establishments, both primary and secondary. There as well,
beyond prosylitising, the financial aspects are not to be
underestimated. In France there are about 30 schools based on
the pedagogy of Rudolf Steiner, founder and spiritual leader of
the Anthroposophical Movement, which considers itself to be the
inheritor of his doctrine.
(. . . )
"[Waldorf] School fees for certain families can be
considered afforadable (between 14,000 and 18,000 francs per
year) [approximately $3,200 and $4,200 per year], The National
Education Inspector has reported schools where the fees were so
high that the parents of the students found themselves obligated
to work for the Anthroposophical Movement in order to pay them."
(4) Regarding The Health Sector:
"- Movements With Activities in the Health Sector
" Anthroposophy
(...)
Anthroposophy, as has already been mentioned in relation to the
Steiner [Waldorf] Schools, engage in significant therapeutic
activities which parallel its educational activities.
"This is based, on one hand, upon a large network of
practitioners federated in the Anthroposophical Medical
Association of France (AMAF), and on the other hand upon several
therapeutic centers which notably accommodate young handicapped
persons [primarily Camphill], as well as upon Weleda , which
employs about 180 pesons in the manufacture of cosmetic and
dietary products as well as medical preparations.
"While officially, anthroposophical medicine does not
require abandoning traditional [conventional] medicine, we are
able to cite patients cases of leukemia, neurolepic disorders or
breast cancer wherein medical treatment had been stopped
completely and care consisted exclusively of powders treated
with "spiritual manipulations", massage [probably Hauschka
massage], herbal infusions and ... the wearing of a body
stocking of silk (said to cure cancer).",
(5) Regarding Involvement in Management and Professional
Training:
". Cults Transformed into Professional Training [Organizations]
Several cult movements, previously known for activity outside
the world of business, have retrofitted themselves and entered
the world of professional training.
"Anthropos[**] is among those cults classified as New Age.
Founded upon the concept of wholism, that is to say upon an
epistimological concept that links every scientific
pronouncement to their own beliefs [unsure of correctness of
translation: original french translates more literally as "to
the domain in which they see the day", which translator has
interpretted as referring to their spiritual view of life], this
cult seeks to "develop man in his body and his spirit." Created
by Bernard Alexander, Anthropos has found an opening for itself
in training by the concept of a seminar of mental enhancement
techniques mingled with neurolinguistic programming and
sophrological [unable to find a definition] techniques.
"This course was introduced into the market by several
nonmatriculated organizations [not affiliated with any college
or university]. It is actually offered to businesses by the
Michael Odoul Center, the name of the successor to Bernard
Alexander, who died in 1996. The Center has regularly declared
its activity to the SRC of the Ile-de-France, and appears to
constitute the most active structure. The Institute of Western
Wholistic Science belongs to the same movement. Founded in the
region of Nantes, this cult has known a significant expansion
since the beginning of the l980's with the creation of several
structures for the sale of both esoteric and biological
dietetic products. It is more recently invested in the market
for professional training. Its two directors, Jean-Pierre Le
Gouguec and Gilles Pag having themselves participated in the
SRC of Britain as personal trainers. In this capacity they have
dispensed, under the cover of their matriculation number,
courses entitled "care of the energetic body" intended to train
therapists to apply cult techniques and treating in its favorit
themes, such as the reiki, karma and reincarnation,
cristallo-therapy or flower essences. Requiring 130 hours of
training spread out over one or two years, these courses are
taken by individuals at their own expense. Another training
convention claims to offer a service called "wholistic
psychology" which takes place over a period of three years with
the stated objective of initiating into a specialized
psychotherapy of human relationships and emerging spiritual
phenomena. The annual income drawn from these trainings, as is
declared by these two trainers, runs anywhere from 354.237
francs [approximately $46,424.80] and 664.162 francs [$87,042.3
0] per person [student] per year. One will note also that a
certificate authorizing exemption from the TVA (VAT) has been
provided to the two trainers."
(6) Regarding Cults With an Auxiliary Activity in Training:
". Cults with an auxiliary training activity
Several cults, sometimes significant for the number of cult
members or their financial clout, and often known to the greater
public due to their public proselytizing aside from that
exercised by their enterprises, have decided to create training
organizations. This represents a particular type of activity,
sometimes located inside the heart of an organization with
complex ramifications and involving multiple cults, intended to
provide the cult with a firm base within the wider economic
sphere.
"Very active in the education sector, it is logical that
Anthroposophy would create training organizations, notably
Michael Hall, a center for adults specialized in personal
development which declares an annual income of 551,576 FrF
[$72,287.30] for the 1997-1998 session, a portion of which was
financed by FONGECIF and by the French government. In the same
vein, NEF counsels SARL and the Rudolf Steiner Free School and
both benefit or have benefitted from not registering with an SRC
[? some sort of regional council?]."
(7) Regarding "the major cults":
"2. The 'Major Cults'
"One can group under the title 'major cult' 8 of the 30
cults listed in the appendix. These are movements that, without
reaching the levels achieved by Jehovah's Witness and
Scientology, drain several tens of millions of francs annually
from the economy. Soka Gakkai is, by virtue of its wealth, the
third largest cult which has implanted itself in France: its
resources, thanks in part to its mother organization, represent
240 million francs [approximately $31,500,000] and its annual
budget, some claim, some 20 million francs [approximately
$2,620,000]. Ranked immediately below it is AMORC with a net
worth valued at 140 million francs [approximately $18,400,000]
and some 30 million francs [approximately $4,000,000] in annual
receipts, followed by Mahikari with 60 million francs
[approximately $8,000,000] in net worth and 15 million francs
[approximately $2,000,000] in annual receipts. Likewise, the
Neo-Apostolic Church, whose receipts are estimated in some years
to approach 20 million francs [approximately $2,620,000], and
which possesses real estate estimated to be worth over 130
million francs [over $17,000,000].
"While this Commission does not have at its disposal at
present elements directly issued from their accounts [? fiscal
reports?], Mandarom and Anthroposophy indiscutably possess great
fortunes. The base movements realized by Mandarom atains in
effect several tens of millions of francs, and the real estate
possessed by Anthroposophy are estimated to be worth over 33
million francs [approximately $4,500,000]."
(8) Regarding Public Financing:
"3. Public Fianancing
"Cults benefit from public financing which, in some cases,
can represent a third source of financing [after member
donations and business receipts]. The amount of funds derived
from this financing fortunately are not so great as those drawn
from their cult activities. However, the fact that public
financing of cults exists well illustrates the capacity of cults
to act under the cover of a smokescreen activity or alias and
the great vulnerability of the government administration which
is often unable to do anything about the real identity and
practices of the organizations which it thus inadvertently
subsidizes.
(...)
"This Commission is also aware of subsidies provided
variously by the town of Chatou, the General Council of les
Yvelines and the regional council of l'Ile de France for
Parzival School. This school is part of the network of
instructional establishments controlled by the Anthroposophical
Society."
(9) Regarding the Real Estate Holdings of Cults:
"b) The Real Estate Holdings of Cults
"Real Estate remains the preferred investment of cults.
Whether realized by their associations or via the intermediary
of nonprofit proprietors [e.g., land trusts], real estate
investments permit cults to avail themselves of locations useful
to the various rites or gatherings which punctuate cult life.
However, this type of investment is also a means of managing and
sometimes laundering the sums of currency which they receive
from their followers.
"Everyone knows examples of the "chateaux" [mansions,
usually of historic and/or cultural importance and value]. It is
undeniable that these cult movements possess a financial
strength sufficient for such important acquisitions, but also,
thanks to their followers, the free labor required to maintain
them. The appetite of cults for historic homes has been judged
sufficiently disturbing to cause alarm for the Directorate of
National Heritage, and to draw attention to the examples of
spoilation [defacement] of sites classified or registered as
historic upon becoming occupied by cult associations.
"The cults' have a well-deserved reputation as having a
greedy taste for "old stones" [important old or ancient
buildings]. There are many examples, such as Krishna, installed
at the Chateau of Bellevue in the Jura and at the Domaine
d'Oubliasse [Oubliasse Estate] in l'Indre; Family Tradition
property settled alongside that of the association "Future of
the Culture" [? this whole phrase is unclear in the original
French] of the Chateau of Jaglu in the department l'Eure et
Loir; The New Acropolis, proprietor of Petral, an ancient
monastary situated in the same department; the Cultural Office
of Cluny which owns the Chateau of Machy in the department of
the Rhone; Orkos, which is installed in the Chateau of Montrame
in the department of Seine-et-Marne...
(...)
"In every case, these evaluations permit cults to establish a
real estate fortune [empire]. A number of organizations lead the
pack with holdings in excess of hundreds of millions of francs
[valued in multiples of approximately $13,000,000]. Other than
Jehovah's Witnesses, this are Soka Gakkai, which lead in the
acquisition of prestigious properties, the Neo-Apostolic Church,
which gave itself a large real estate complex in order to
receive its followers in better conditions, and Dianova, whose
real estate investments have been denounced by the Court of
Accounts [possibly analagous to the SEC in the US]. They are
followed by AMORC, Anthroposophy, [Rev. Sun Yung] Moon, Mahikari
and the Universal White Brotherhood whose holdings figure in the
tens of millions of francs [multiples of approximately
$1,300,000]. For their part, Krishna [the Hare Krishna
movement], Family Tradition Ownership [?estate?], the Grail
Movement, the Cultural Office of Cluny, the Golden Rose Cross
and the Pentacostalists of Besancon have holdings valued at
between 10 and 15 million francs [approximately $1,300,000 and
$2,000,000 respectively], with other cults lower on the scale."
(10) Regarding Investments in the service of Cult Practices:
"c) Investments in the service of cult practices
"Whatever its form might be, the architectural heritage
acquired by cults represents an investment destined to increase
their influence.
"In the first place, the objective of such cult
acquisitions is to provide economic security, particularly by
providing regular revenue drawn, for example, from business
investments. Certain movements even possess agricultural
properties [certainly true of Anthroposophy!] which can provide
a living for the cult community occupying it. This is the case
with Dianova and Krishna [the Hare Krishna movement]. The
financial reports of Soka Gakkai also show agricultural revenues
drawn from the property which it possesses at Trets in the
department of Bouche du Rhone.
"These investments are above all utilized for cult
activities themselves. Enlivened and given value by the activity
of the followers who are asked to offer their services free of
charge, the properties acquired by cults are at the same time
vehicles for the propagation of their message. Cult movements
primarily acquire properties intended as meeting places. Two
cases of the acquisition of movie theatres have been pointed out
to this Commission. Outside the example of Jehova's Witnesses,
the real estate fortunes of movements such as Mahikari or the
Pentacostalists of Besancon are based on cult properties
distributed within the departments where the cults enjoy an
audience. The Neo-Apostolic Church possesses a church in Metz
which is 1,600 square meters in size [17222.26 square feet],
built on 60 acres [approximately 1.5 acres] [may be a typo in
original: could be hectares, in which it would be approximately
150 acres] with a capacity of 1,300 people and offering very
modern technical installations. Mandarom has just acquired a
construction permit to build a sepulchre for Gilber Bourdin, the
cost of which is estimated at 50 million francs [approximately
$6,500,000].
"The different chateaux acquired by the cults are often
destined to serve as sites for conferences, courses or seminars
which they offer. For example, the Golden Rose Cross puts to
such use the Chateau of Tourtel in the department
Meurthe-et-Moselle and Rieusselat Estate in the department of
Herault. AMORC has reclaimed the old Dunlop warehouses in
Orleans as a meeting place for the "initiates" of the region.
Most importantly it is the proprietor, through the intermediary
of a for-profit enterprise, of AMORC Place, at 199 Rue St.
Martin in paris, which is a complex of 26,909.10 square feet of
space composed of 10 rooms distributed over three floors, an
auditorium with a capacity of 400 people, a bookstore and an art
gallery. Lastly, one can cite the example of the
Anthroposophical Society which possesses over 24 properties used
as preschools or schools, and several cult centers and various
accommodation [or housing] structures."
PART III
Has nothing specifically about anthroposophy.
APPENDIX
A huge section on anthroposophy at:
http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/2/dossiers/sectes/r1687anx.htm#P125_7334
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[*] Translator has not yet been able to find a specific
definition of "livret A", which appears to be retirement funds
similar to Social Security in the United States. If anyone is
able either to confirm this impression or to provide a correct
definition, it would be greatly appreciated if they would post
same to the list.
[**] Translator is unfamiliar with this cult and any connections
it may have to Anthroposophy and/or the teachings of Rudolf
Steiner. However, the similarity of the name suggests that it
is possibly derivative. If any listmember is able to provide
elucidation, please post as a response to this email.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2543.2 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: P.R. Koenig
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:05:36 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Detlef Hardorp (hardorp gmx.net) wrote:
) I never did like talking about people behind their backs. So
) I forwarded Lucky Miller's musings about P.R. Koenig Re: OTO
) and Rudolf Steiner, Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 18:37:43 -0700) to
) Mr. Koenig, adding that I would be happy to post a reponse.
) Here it is:
) (D. Hardorp)
)
) Dear Cybercitizens
)
) data on me can be found at
) http://home.sunrise.ch/~prkoenig/light.htm
)
) I am neither pro or contra Anthroposophy: it's part of my
) research on the OTO.
)
) Sincerely
)
) P.R. Koenig
) http://www.cyberlink.ch/~koenig
)
)
and even more data can be found at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7069/koenig.html
verrrrrrry interrrrrestingk!
Luke
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2543.3 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: P.R. Koenig
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:41:07 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com) wrote:
) From Lucky Miller Mon Sep 11 19:05:36 2000
) Received: from [199.111.91.167] by web6301.mail.yahoo.com;
) Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:05:36 PDT
) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:05:36 -0700 (PDT)
) From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
) Subject: Re: P.R. Koenig
) To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
) MIME-Version: 1.0
) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
) Content-Length: 866
)
)
) --- Detlef Hardorp (hardorp gmx.net) wrote:
) ) I never did like talking about people behind their backs.
) So
) ) I forwarded Lucky Miller's musings about P.R. Koenig Re:
) OTO
) ) and Rudolf Steiner, Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 18:37:43 -0700) to
) ) Mr. Koenig, adding that I would be happy to post a reponse.
) ) Here it is:
) ) (D. Hardorp)
) )
) ) Dear Cybercitizens
) )
) ) data on me can be found at
) ) http://home.sunrise.ch/~prkoenig/light.htm
) )
) ) I am neither pro or contra Anthroposophy: it's part of my
) ) research on the OTO.
) )
) ) Sincerely
) )
) ) P.R. Koenig
) ) http://www.cyberlink.ch/~koenig
) )
) )
and even more data can be found at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7069/koenig.html
verrrrrrry interrrrrestingk!
Luke
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2543.4 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject:
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:58:20 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I found an interesting online conversation about Waldorf
Schools:
http://www.cquest.utoronto.ca/env/aera/aera-lists/aera-l/current/0031.html
AND
http://www.cquest.utoronto.ca/env/aera/aera-lists/aera-l/current/0029.html
AND
http://www.cquest.utoronto.ca/env/aera/aera-lists/aera-l/current/0033.html
AND
http://www.cquest.utoronto.ca/env/aera/aera-lists/aera-l/current/0034.html
Note how deceptively and cleverly the Waldorf school packaged
its rationale for not introducing intellectual content before
age 7 to Stephanie Jones -- who was then (in May 1999) a
doctoral candidate at Northwestern University's School of
Education and Social Policy -- to be palatable to her mentality
and to disguise the occultism.
Also, an interesting piece of information is found in the
message from Dick Allington:
"For one of the few reports on Waldorf schooling by an
"outsider", see a
dissertation completed by Janet Howard at the State University
of New York at
Albany in the late 1980s. Should be available through
Disseration Abstracts.
Sorry i don't have title. Dick Allington, AERA Division L:
Politics and Policy in Education"
Dan: were you aware of this?
Luke
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2543.5 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Stereotypes and Anthroposophy
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 20:45:30 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
http://www.akdh.ch/ps/ps_52Anth-Rass-Denk.html
is german language, but it can be translated at
freetranslation.com or your favorite online free translation
site.
The first paragraph appears to be a quote of rudolf steiner's
stating "I find antisemites to be harmless people.."
I copy and paste below the translation freetranslation.com
provided.
Luke
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Anthroposophisches Rassedenken and antisemitische think stereo
types: famous "Einzelflle"?
Rudolf Steiner:
I consider the Antisemiten to be harmless people. That Best
under them are like the children. They want to have something
that it the guilt attribute can at an evil, on Suffer that it.
()...Much worse than the Antisemiten the heartless leaders are
The Europe tired Jews, the Mr. Herzl and Nordau. They make out
of an unpleasant childishness a world historic current; they
give a harmless Geplnkel for a terrible Canon fire from. They
are seducer, tempter of its people.
From: magazine for literature, no. 38, 66 Volumes, 1897: that
Longing of the Jews to Palestine
And one can so say: there all that what the Jews did, now in
more aware manner of all persons for example done become could,
could the Jews actually complete nothing better, rise than in
the remaining Mix humanity, itself with the remaining humanity,
so That the judaism would simply stop as a people. That That is
what would be ideal a.
From: total edition (GA) 353, S. 202, presentation of the 8 May
1924
&; the Nergerrasse does not belong to to quot Europe, and it
naturally only a nonsense is, that it now in Europe a so large
roll plays" (GA 349, S. 53)
All, what the thiopischen race its special features lends,
comes that therefrom, that the Merkurkrfte Cook and simmer in
the gland system of the relevant persons. That comes therefrom
that they boil, what the general, same Person shape to the
special of the thiopischen race makes With the black skin
color, the woolly hair and so further.
From: GA, 121, S. 107 f
They look at itself these colors, of the negros begun until
towards the yellow population, that in Asia To find is.
Therefore they have there Leiber that would echo again the most
deceased souls are, of the entirely passive negro soul begun,
that totally the environment, the external Physis given away is,
up to the other steps of the passive souls in The most deceased
areas of Asia.
From: GA 107, S. 288
Now, in America, there that, that thrive negros going bottom
once were actually, that is, it Do not thrive, it go to ruin,
the indian. ()...Therefore become You kupferrot, become indian.
That comes therefrom because they forced Are, something of light
and warmth zurckzuwerfen. That shines Then kupferrot. ()
They...cannot endure that. Therefore that die are as an indian
in the west from, again a sinking Race, die at its
characteristic nature, that too little light and warmth Gets,
die at the earthly.
From: GA 354, S 62 f
The judaism as such has itself however a long time enjoyed life,
has no authorization of the modern peoples life and that it
received itself nevertheless, is a mistake of the world story
Whose sequences were not able to stay away. We do not mean here
that Forms of the Jewish religion alone, we mean especially The
intellect of the judaism, the Jewish way of thinking.
From: gathered of treatises of the literature, Dornach 1971, S.
152 F, GA 32
What however into the Tierheit hinabgestoen become is, is that
either Becomed extinct lives, or it in the different higher
animals away...() what however in the zone of the human remained
is, has a similar process, only within The human, endured. Also
in many wild peeele we have the come down descendants once more
highly To see standing person form. They did not sink up to the
step The Tierheit, but rather only up to the ferocity.
From: out of the Akasha-chronicle, S.74f, Rudolf Steiner pockets
books out of the total work
Therefore this independent thinking, that the European in the
intercourse the environment develops me, that have The asian
not. The Japaner become therefore all European Inventions
instruct contrive; but even something, that become that Japaner
not.
From: GA 349, 1980, 03.03. 1923, S. 59.
The terrible cultivation banality of that Transplantation of the
black persons to Europe, it is a terrible Did, does that the
Frenchman at others. It causes in yet worse Manner on France
even back. On the blood, on the race That reacts incredibly
strongly. That becomes essential that Promote French decadence.
The French people As a race, zurckgebracht becomes.
From: GA 300/2, 1975, S. 282
Marie Steiner
One needs the stupid or the Negerhafte, around the spicy To
produce spice; one pours that in the cawing Ersterbende - No
longer that in the sick welfare sound melting away. One is happy
also at the Untersinnlich-demonic, that again the negro notebook
Emerges from.
From: Marie Steiner, creative language, preface to the 1st
edition (1926) of: Rudolf Steiner/Marie steiner- of Sivers:
Sprachgestaltung And dramatic art. GA 282, Dornach 1969, S.
390f.
Karl Heise
It are Russian dukes and Russian Jews therefore especially with
English maurerischen diplomat in the alliance, that the present
War (the 1st world war, Anm. AKdH) arrangierten. "
From: Karl Heise, the Entente-Freimaurerei and the world war. On
Contribution to that
History of the world war and to the understanding of the true
Freimaurerei Basel
1919Th (the work became by Rudolf Steiner financed, wrote it In
addition the preface, Anm. AKdH)
Friedrich Rittelmeyer:
Today the hour is there, where really in the christianity all
that yet Judaism living in it overcome will must. The signs The
time it gebieterisch require.
From: Christ, S. 46, 1936
The Christian partnership acknowledges the
nationalsozialistischen Country. It believes to do it the best
service, if it the religiously-Christian In most possible purity
and strength maintains.
Zit. In Gerhard defense, Friedrich Rittelmeyer, Stuttgart 1998,
S. 221
He who openly has its eyes, can see, that in the christianity
today yet all three
other large religions its being drive, not only that Judaism,
also that
Buddhism, also the Muhammedanismus. And a large Reinigungstat
were necessary, for that perhaps just the Germanen Best
characteristics bring along. One
large Reinigungstat through which the christianity given itself
becomes; through
that it to a new higher step of its development emporgefhrt
Becomes.
From: Rittelmeyer, impulses of the present, writings to the
religious
Renewal, S. 11, publishing house Urachhaus Stuttgart, 1940)
Karl Heyer
Above all the nationalsozialistische propaganda in many
practiced Points a thoroughly correct criticism of numerous
actual Evils of the time and the german people. They had many a
correctly durchschaut, what misleading, doubtful developments
the 19th century were, that continued in that 20th. The national
socialism when entire placed, how we already saw, a retaliation
against many of these developments and these evils there, one
Retaliation, that the persons in a type emotional Affirming
could.
From: Karl Heyer, being and wanting of the national socialism,
S. 336, Perseus publishing house Basel, 1991
Hitler has the person next to all other Also much and even
essential truths said. Just this Truths that it said were
suited, it the necessary credit to give also the persons for the
other, that without the addition the credit gift truths long not
so willingly received Had. It was thoroughly not alone therefore
somewhat untrue or Associates because Hitler said it! In the
opposite: one could out of its Learn truths.
From: Karl Heyer, being and wanting of the national socialism,
S. 346 Perseus publishing house Basel, 1991
Gnther Wachsmuth
In its presentations, Rudolf Steiner referred on that that also
that
Skin color of the so-called black, yellow, red and white races
with that
Differently causing I-organization holds together. ()... Like
the plants
I-lot and dully vegetating the effects of the sunbeams given
away are
especially prefer and the coal material, is in that I-weak
black races the carbon-process to strongly into the skin
Hineingedrungen and has its color tingiert. One can say
therefore: the red and
black Farbnuancen how they appeared even in the skin, spring
from
one to strong or to weak, i.e. abnormal I-development; that
Inclination to the normal, middle balance the extreme shows
itself in that
white skin colors of the European races, which the task have,
that correctly
To induce balanced I-development.
From: Gnther Wachsmuth, Africa as an agency of the earth,
childhood stadiums the humanity, S. 43, in: Ga-Sophia, annual
of the scientific Section of the free university for intellect
science at the Goetheanum Dornach, volume III, ethnology, 1929th
(Wachsmuth, 1893-1963 was decades long secretary-general of the
general Anthroposophischen Company, Anm: AKdH)
Karl king:
One can say it quite not differently, when that now that, that
in the high ovens of Poland and Bavaria and Austria burned
became that that discarded through its Opfertod things shaft for
the coming of the Christ in the clouds, for the appearance The
person son in the ether room of the earth. Have the omens
reversed itself: the pharisee and Sadduzer, Herodes and Ponti
Pilati, they carried all arische Leiber, german robes Brown
shirts. The Jews of our time became that, the Verleugner that
powerful event that taken place in the ethereal Has. This event
had to be find Judas-Schiksal on earths And it was found.
()...It will never succeed that through court negotiations Did
to arrange or to would long. For deeds are, same That of the
Judas; that happen must to deeds. And that that it did is much
worse on that than that, that had to suffer...it
From: Karl king, story and fate of the Jewish People, S. 40,
1986
Werner Georg Haverbeck
As a result today no teacher may or high training professor that
Question of the war guilt of Germany or of mass destruction
warehouse publicly place to the discussion, reprimanded without
immediately , For here it would concern to become
unbezweifelbare states of affairs. They therefore are not
already to be disputed, because on that - and like to be able to
say we now to mine: on a historic would lie - Countries of the
postwar period established became, whose existence Through it
also in question placed would become.
From: Werner Georg Haverbeck, Rudolf Steiner - lawyer for
Germany S. 324f
Dr. med. Sigmund quicker (KZ physician Dachau)
Letter at Himmler: that in the report 4.IV. described attempt
became Already 4mal repeats, and to be sure each time with the
same results. I diminished the last VP Wagner breath standstill
through pressure increase Come again into the life. That the VP
W. for a terminalen Attempt certainly, through a renewed attempt
no new result in outlook stood, moreover its letter at that time
not yet in my Hands was, prepared I subsequently a new attempt
That the VP W. did not overcome. The results of the heart
current write-off Also in this case, extraordinary were.
From: Dachauer Herfte 4, Wolfgag Benz, Dr. med. Sigmund quicker
- A career
S 202, Verl. DTV
Anm. AKdH: quick "erprobte" in the KZ Dachau (lower cooling
trial) That of the firm WELEDA delivered " naturheilkundliche
frost protection cream". WELEDA challenged, in spite of contrary
proofs, direct contacts to that SS had to have (see: Flensburger
notebooks no. 32, S. 51f
Ren Maikowsi
Out of a letter at empire minister Rudolf Hess (written on that
Stationery the " alliance of the Waldorfschulen".
The rejection of the unilaterally intellectual element through
that Pedagogics of the Waldorfschulen and hers Christian reason
bearing emphasizes it brings with itself, that the Jews
understanding only slight Show for the Waldorfschulen. The
percentage More jewish Children is therefore very slight.
()...The incorrectness of the statement (Let Rudolf Steiner be
Jew, see Ariernachweis, Anm. AKdH) results from unit 4th on the
basis of this expert opinion the untruths are over the
personality Dr. Steiners In the newspapers verstummt. The
schools become average 1,5 - 2% Jewish children visits. The
experience showed that straight Jewish children usually soon out
of Waldorfschulen again Abgemeldet become " because of its
Christian character".
From: Flensburger notebooks, no. 8, S. 75f
Stefan liver:
That Triebleben' the black with its material changeable
bewegungsfhigen nature is judged only apparently contemptuous
(in Steiner, AKdH); in reality it proves to be a superiority and
advantage, namely as a protection from the case in the
materialism And therewith also the Sozialdarwinismus that the
white easily succumbs.
From: Anthroposophie and Waldorfpdagogik in the cultivations of
that World, Hrsg. Stefan liver, Stuttgart 1998, S. 252
Ludwig Thieben:
The arischen peoples are more settled nature; maintain it the
agriculture, business, art and science; it countries reasons are
courageous and bravely; the fundamental of its being is the
straightness, honesty Faithful and devotion. They are the actual
cultivation peoples.
The real Semiten on the other hand are of nomad; they have no
actually Lasting residence, no right homeland. They pull there,
where The best prey waves. They construct and cultivate nothing
itself; it the cultivation sites created by strange industry
seek up, prey the available favorable ratios from grasses, so to
speak the meadow places off and leave it geplndert And verdet
back. Agriculture, technology and art is them Strangely, like
each honestly creating work. They give themselves the appearance
as they despise be missing the work, in truth however them that
Capacities in addition. ()...The Jew however is as it were the
"Kulturbeduine"; it operates the same business in gewissermassen
more civilized Form. Its domain is the "Handel", that with it to
be sure a very far concept covers, for in the Jewish Speak meant
the word "Masematten" just as probably on Trade business as well
as a robbery.
From: Ludwig Thieben, the riddle of the judaism, S. 36
1931/1991,Perseus Publishing house Basel.
An intellectual humanity mission is in the hebrisch-Jewish
People at the national blood powers and at the national blood
consciousness Most severe Observanz bound.
From: Ludwig Thieben, the riddle of the judaism, S. 41
1931/1991,Perseus Publishing house Basel.
The mysterious, shake riddle the judaism is in the question
concluded, like out of the Vorglanz The Christentums its shadow
become could.
From: Ludwig Thieben, the riddle of the judaism, S. 42,
1931/1991, Perseus publishing house Basel.
The immortality, and to be sure the full immortality in one
transfigured body, in an auferweckten soul and in that creative
intellects increased is the deepest longing The entire humanity;
the eternal Jew it becomes the curse. In one earth bodies did
not transfigure eternally live is, to must that largest curses,
of that only the resurrection impulse of the Christ proceeds can
- on that warn us all the legends and legends of such persons,
that itself the grace of the dead ability Have through any an
outrage verscherzt.
From: Ludwig Thieben, the riddle of the judaism, S. 182
1931/1991 Perseus publishing house Basel.
Thomas Meyer:
That the Jews had the task as a selected people, that To prepare
Herrn' the ways and therein as a Volkheit already a humanity
mission fulfilled, is generally confessed; also if it that whose
coming they had prepared in its authoritative representative did
not recognize and up to that To to not recognize current day are
able to do.
From: german and Jews: two of humanity peoples as a Nachwort in
Ludwig Thieben, the riddle of the judaism, S. 240, 1991, Perseus
publishing house Basel.
If - through the sorrows of the Holocaust - within the judaism
more and more persons the eyes rise become for the fact, that
the renewed "Grosstaten"
Christs of whom Herzl dreamed in reality in that
ethereal-bersinnlichen To seek intellect area of the earth are,
where it itself since the 30er's Continually play back years of
this century, could it just the best, fortentwickelnde part of
the judaism are itself preserve that the Deutschtum in the
future in the realization its Task assists. (Legitimierung of
the Shoah, Anm. AkdH)
From: german and Jews: two of humanity peoples as a Nachwort in
Ludwig Thieben, the riddle of the judaism, S. 254, 1991, Perseus
publishing house Basel.
Joseph Beuys
I would go it on that back (the Auslnderfeindlichkeit Anm.
AKdH) that that in the person not yet very far develops Is, this
overcoming of old blood. That the Blutsmssige Thoroughly not
yet overcome is. It is an internal bondage.
From: Frank Gieseke, Albert Markert, flyer felt and homeland -
An expanded Beuys Biografie, S. 162, 1996
I can say that (to a Dutch to them Interlocutor at the Documenta
5,1972). Why it gives then Generally Dutchman? Why does one say
that? That have yet your characteristic language ... that is so
how you form the language So naturally the children form
themselves its pictures correspondingly. That is even the
capacity of the Dutchmen ... , the capacity the Dutchman differs
of the capacity of that Frenchmen. That is one entire other
people soul, say we once so. An entirely other groups soul.
From: Frank Gieseke, Albert Markert, flyer felt and homeland -
An expanded Beuys Biografie, S. 180 f, 1996
Gerold Aregger
So terrible the crimes of the national socialism mentally also
cause - the scientific intellect can itself totally Do
unimpressed therefrom ask: that of all was really so?
From: Gerold Aregger, to the shape of the Revisionismus in:
present fortwirkender national socialism, Homepage of INFO3,
access at that 8.6.1998 / Archive Grandt
Irene Diet
In the periodical "Goetheanum" Irene Diet writes loudly INFO3 in
the May 1998 in a treatise, that " the judaism lump sum as an
unconvinceable world historical factor, when remained
Gruppenseelentum dar(stellt)".
From: INFO3, 6, 1998, AKdH archive
Imme Scheurle-would show
Supplements in a reader letter to Irene Diet:
I was at least eight times in Israel, have friends there under
that Jews and I on that would attentively like to make, that the
there Isn't nationalism (it the devil?) carried of retarding
Jewish elements a world catastrophe is! The fanatical Judaismus
today is a remnant its, what woman Diet Describes, and no longer
timely. Who wanted that contradict!
From: INFO3, 7, 1998
Hans Erhard more tepid
And this Hinuntertragen, this Durchimprgnieren of the meat with
that
The characteristic of the mission of the white humanity is
intellects, that. That
Persons have its white skin color out of the reason, because the
intellect in the skin
Then causes if it wants on the physical plan heruntersteigen.
That that
what more external, physical body is, housing becomes for that
is the intellect, that
Abandon our fifth cultivation epoch that become prepared is
through that
Other four cultivation epochs. ()...If we entirely recognize
this, then we become
us also very clearly its about the fact, that there, where the
intellect yet function as an intellect
wants, remain should where it in more certainly manner in its
Development..., that
because where it remains, where it a demonic character supposes,
the meat
completely does not permeate - that there white skin color not
entrance, because
atavistische powers there are, that the intellect not completely
with the meat in
Let harmony come.
From: Hans Erhard more tepid, story than a step gear of the
Menschwerdung First volume, free castle i. Br., 1956, S. 251.
(more tepid, 1899-1979, was leading functionary of the Austrian
anthroposophischen Company. After the bersiedlung into
Switzerland instructed it until middle of the '60er's at the
Rudolf-Steiner-schools in Basel And Zurich, Anm. AKdH)
Prof. seriously of Hippel
Perhaps more clearly yet as words in addition the previously
incisiviest brings Measure of the high training politics, the
distance of the Jews of that University, the rejection of the
old science intellect to that Expression. Yet through it, the
typical representative of the previous should Think and
therewith this itself in its personnel Verleiblichung
Encountered become. ()...And was actually found here (by The
Jewish instructor, Anm. AKdH) in incidental manner that rational
fortunes of an old race in that vegetationslosen and deserts
notebook severe, that no intellectual contents more To know
seems. ()...The multiply awkward feeling of the german Soul
after the concrete intellect stepped the abstract and belief
bandage Ratio of the judaism dissolving toward.
From: seriously of Hippel, the university in the new country,
king mountain 1933, S. 12, 19, 20f
Wilhelm Lewerenz
Out of its music theory: the Chinese music obvious the
freigeistigen European one " cultivation of the Pedanterie", in
the hebrischen Music prevails the wills and in the sounds of
the Arier perceive " a wonderfully-dreamy element A Gods child
who sent the person to Freud and comfort.
From: Peter Bierl: root races, Erzengel and people intellects,
S. 157
Monika Neve
And on Atlantis the higher mammals differentiate themselves Apes
and
Certain person races out. Only out of the entwicklungsfhig
remained
Leibern of the progressive humanity emerge the cultivations that
that
Nachatlantische time at its goal bring should. - Rudolf Steiner
wise in this
Connection again and again on that there, that the so-called
wild that
"Naturvlker", not an earlier condition the humanity into our
time
hineintragen, but rather gewissermassen degeneration vormals
higher Cultivations
Represent.
From: Monika Neve, Waldorflehrerin, New Age as a diversion? An
analysis the New Age movement out of anthroposophischer
visibility, Raisdorf/Kiel 1989)
Michael Klussmann
Rudolf Steiner has the natural inequality of the "Populationen"
not differently
explains as the modern biology and anthropology. "
From: Michael Klussmann, to the racism-contention, III. The
problem of that Decadence, in: the Goetheanum, 75th volume,
1996/97, S. 379)
Swipe-Peter Endres, wolf gear damage and Christof Lindenau are
very detailed
and highly stimulating on the indianische decadence problem gone
in to summarize that in the insight would be, that in
memorableer Wise the powerful
Spirituality of the indianischen person with a premature
hardening the
Physical body connected been is. Through it let a law be each
evolution
injured become, according to what a temporally earlier of so
more open and suppler
Structure be would must, that at it later development powers
plastizieren
Could. (Michael Klumann, a.a.O., S. 380)
Bernhard Schaub
Ehem. Waldorf Geschichtslehrer.
Schaub had 1992 in its Konradin publishing house in Brugg CORP.
the mentioned Writing (Adler and rose, Anm: AKdH), that in few
anthroposophischen or freiwirtschaftlichen periodicals
positively discussed Became. () He...appears therein convinced,
that gasification In no of these warehouses (concentration
warehouse, Anm. AKdH) taken place Have can.
From: Jrg fresh servant, Peter Niggli, rights rope shafts S.
674, 1998
The American Gaskammerexperte is my knowledge Fred Leuchter
(int. well known Holocaust Leugner, Anm. AKdH), that
Exekutionsanlagen for prisons in the United States produces,
been the first, the investigations scientific In Auschwitz,
Birkenau and Majdanek engaged. In the April 1988 gave It its
expert opinion zuhanden of a Canadian court off. It shows
therein convinces itself, that gasification in no of these
warehouses taken place have could; this would be bautechnisch
and also With regard to the disposal totally ausgeschlossen.
Considerable Residues of cyclone B in the gesteins- and mortar
sample Out of the so-called Gaskammern, it did not find.
From: Bernhard Schaub, Adler and rose. Know and fate of the
deutschsprachigen Central Europe. S. 94, Konradin-publishing
house. Bathe, 1992.
On Document out of the Waldorfschulunterricht:
Atlantis and the existence of different "Menschenrassen" becomes
yet today at Waldorfschulen children as a part of the
"Weltgeschichte" Instructs!
Gstebuch
action of children of the Holocaust
__________________________________________________
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--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2543 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2544 --------------
001 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Stereotypes and Anthroposophy
002 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999 WAS: Re: anti-cult leg
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2544.1 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Stereotypes and Anthroposophy
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:26:29 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com) wrote:
) http://www.akdh.ch/ps/ps_52Anth-Rass-Denk.html
) is german language, but it can be translated at
) freetranslation.com or your favorite online free translation
) site.
(snip)
) I copy and paste below the translation freetranslation.com
) provided.
)
) Luke
I copy and paste below the original German Language page because
some of the German names were translated into English words, and
for the benefit of those who *do* speak and read German:
Anthroposophisches Rassedenken und antisemitische
Denkstereotypen: berhmte "Einzelflle"?
Rudolf Steiner:
Ich halte die Antisemiten fr ungefhrliche Leute. Die Besten
unter ihnen sind wie die Kinder. Sie wollen etwas haben, dem sie
die Schuld zuschreiben knnen an einem bel, an dem sie leiden.
(...) Viel schlimmer als die Antisemiten sind die herzlosen
Fhrer der europamden Juden, die Herren Herzl und Nordau. Sie
machen aus einer unangenehmen Kinderei eine welthistorische
Strmung; sie geben ein harmloses Geplnkel fr ein furchtbares
Kanonenfeuer aus. Sie sind Verfhrer, Versucher ihres Volkes.
Aus: Magazin fr Literatur, Nr. 38, 66 Jahrgang, 1897: Die
Sehnsucht der Juden nach Palstina
Und so kann man sagen: Da alles dasjenige, was die Juden getan
haben, jetzt in bewusster Weise von allen Menschen zum Beispiel
getan werden knnte, so knnten die Juden eigentlich nichts
besseres vollbringen, als aufgehen in der brigen Menschheit,
sich vermischen mit der brigen Menschheit, so dass das Judentum
als Volk einfach aufhren wrde. Das ist dasjenige, was ein
Ideal wre.
Aus: Gesamtausgabe (GA) 353, S. 202, Vortrag vom 8. Mai 1924
" Die Nergerrasse gehrt nicht zu Europa, und es ist natrlich
nur ein Unfug, dass sie jetzt in Europa eine so grosse Rolle
spielt" (GA 349, S.53)
Alles, was der thiopischen Rasse ihre besonderen Merkmale
verleiht, das kommt davon her, dass die Merkurkrfte in dem
Drsensystem der betreffenden Menschen kochen und brodeln. Das
kommt davon her, dass sie auskochen, was die allgemeine, gleiche
Menschengestalt zu der besonderen der thiopischen Rasse macht
mit der schwarzen Hautfarbe, dem wolligen Haar und so weiter.
Aus: GA, 121, S.107 f,
Sehen sie sich diese Farben an, von den Negern angefangen bis zu
der gelben Bevlkerung hin, die in Asien zu finden ist. Daher
haben sie dort Leiber, die wiederum Hllen der verschiedensten
Seelen sind, von der ganz passiven Negerseele angefangen, die
vllig der Umgebung, der usseren Physis hingegeben ist, bis zu
den anderen Stufen der passiven Seelen in den verschiedensten
Gegenden Asiens.
Aus: GA 107, S. 288
Nun, in Amerika, da gedeihen diejenigen, die eigentlich zugrunde
gehende Neger einmal waren, das heisst, sie gedeihen nicht, sie
gehen zugrunde, die Indianer. (...) Daher werden sie kupferrot,
werden Indianer. Das kommt davon her, weil sie gezwungen sind,
etwas von Licht und Wrme zurckzuwerfen. Das glnzt dann
kupferrot. (...) Das knnen sie nicht aushalten. Daher sterben
die als Indianer im Westen aus, sind wiederum eine untergehende
Rasse, sterben an ihrer eigenen Natur, die zu wenig Licht und
Wrme bekommt, sterben an dem irdischen.
Aus: GA 354, S 62 f,
Das Judentum als solches hat sich aber lngst ausgelebt, hat
keine Berechtigung des modernen Vlkerlebens, und dass es sich
dennoch erhalten hat, ist ein Fehler der Weltgeschichte, dessen
Folgen nicht ausbleiben konnten. Wir meinen hier nicht die
Formen der jdischen Religion alleine, wir meinen vorzglich den
Geist des Judentums, die jdische Denkweise.
Aus: Gesammelte Aufstze der Literatur, Dornach 1971, S. 152 f,
GA 32
Was aber in die Tierheit hinabgestoen worden ist, das ist
entweder ausgestorben, oder es lebt in den verschiedenen hheren
Tieren fort (...) Was aber im Gebiet des Menschlichen geblieben
ist, hat einen hnlichen Proze, nur innerhalb des Menschlichen,
durchgemacht. Auch in manchen wilden Vlkerschaften haben wir
die heruntergekommenen Nachfahren einstmals hher stehender
Menschenformen zu sehen. Sie sanken nicht bis zur Stufe der
Tierheit, sondern nur bis zur Wildheit.
Aus: Aus der Akasha-Chronik, S.74f, Rudolf Steiner Taschenbcher
aus dem Gesamtwerk
Also dieses selbstndige Denken, dass der Europer im Umgang mir
der Umgebung entwickelt, das haben die Asiaten nicht. Die
Japaner werden daher alle europischen Erfindungen ausbilden;
aber selbst etwas ausdenken, das werden die Japaner nicht.
Aus: GA 349, 1980, 03.03. 1923, S. 59.
Die schreckliche Kulturbanalitt der Verpflanzung der schwarzen
Menschen nach Europa, es ist eine furchtbare Tat, die der
Franzose an anderen tut. Sie wirkt in noch schlimmerer Weise auf
Frankreich selbst zurck. Auf das Blut, auf die Rasse wirkt das
unglaublich stark zurck. Das wird wesentlich die franzsische
Dekadenz frdern. Das franzsische Volk als Rasse wird
zurckgebracht.
Aus: GA 300/2, 1975, S.282
Marie Steiner
Man braucht das Blde oder das Negerhafte, um die pikanten
Wrzen herzustellen; man giesst das im Krchzen Ersterbende -
nicht mehr das im kranken Wohllaut Zerschmelzende. Man freut
sich auch am Untersinnlich-Dmonischen, das wiederum dem
Negerhaften entsteigt.
Aus: Marie Steiner, Schpferische Sprache, Vorwort zur 1.
Ausgabe (1926) von: Rudolf Steiner/Marie Steiner- von Sivers:
Sprachgestaltung und Dramatische Kunst. GA 282, Dornach 1969, S.
390f.
Karl Heise
Russische Grossfrsten und russische Juden sind es also
vornehmlich, mit
englischen maurerischen Diplomaten im Bunde, die den
gegenwrtigen Krieg (den 1. Weltkrieg, Anm. AKdH) arrangierten."
Aus: Karl Heise, Die Entente-Freimaurerei und der Weltkrieg. Ein
Beitrag zur
Historie des Weltkrieges und zum Verstndnis der wahren
Freimaurerei, Basel,
1919. (Das Werk wurde von Rudolf Steiner finanziert, er schrieb
dazu das Vorwort, Anm. AKdH)
Friedrich Rittelmeyer:
Heute ist die Stunde da, wo wirklich im Christentum all das noch
in ihm lebende Judentum berwunden werden muss. Die Zeichen der
Zeit fordern es gebieterisch.
Aus: Christus, S. 46, 1936
Die Christengemeinschaft anerkennt den nationalsozialistischen
Staat. Sie glaubt ihm den besten Dienst zu tun, wenn sie das
Religis-Christliche in mglichster Reinheit und Strke pflegt.
Zit. Bei Gerhard Wehr, Friedrich Rittelmeyer, Stuttgart 1998, S.
221
Wer seine Augen offen hat, kann sehen, dass im Christentum heute
noch alle drei
anderen groen Religionen ihr Wesen treiben, nicht nur das
Judentum, auch der
Buddhismus, auch der Muhammedanismus. Und eine grosse
Reinigungstat wre ntig, fr die vielleicht gerade die Germanen
beste Eigenschaften mitbringen. Eine
grosse Reinigungstat, durch die das Christentum sich selbst
gegeben wird; durch
die es zu einer neuen hheren Stufe seiner Entwicklung
emporgefhrt wird.
Aus: Rittelmeyer, Impulse der Gegenwart, Schriften zur
religisen
Erneuerung, S.11, Verlag Urachhaus Stuttgart, 1940)
Karl Heyer
Vor allem bte die nationalsozialistische Propaganda in vielen
Punkten eine durchaus zutreffende Kritik an zahlreichen
wirklichen beln der Zeit und des deutschen Volkes. Sie hatten
manches richtig durchschaut, was abwegige, bedenkliche
Entwicklungen des 19. Jahrhunderts waren, die sich ins 20.
fortsetzten. Der Nationalsozialismus als Ganzes stellte, wie wir
bereits gesehen haben, einen Gegenschlag gegen viele dieser
Entwicklungen und dieser bel dar, einen Gegenschlag, den die
Menschen in einer Art gefhlsmssig bejahen konnten.
Aus: Karl Heyer, Wesen und Wollen des Nationalsozialismus, S.
336, Perseus Verlag Basel, 1991
Hitler hat neben allem anderen den Menschen auch viel und sogar
wesentliche Wahrheiten gesagt. Gerade diese Wahrheiten, die er
sagte, waren geeignet, ihm den notwendigen Kredit zu geben auch
fr das andere, das die Menschen ohne die Beimischung der
kreditgebenden Wahrheiten lange nicht so bereitwillig
aufgenommen htten. Es war durchaus nicht allein deshalb etwas
unwahr oder verkehrt, weil Hitler es sagte! Im Gegenteil: man
konnte aus seinen Wahrheiten lernen.
Aus: Karl Heyer, Wesen und Wollen des Nationalsozialismus,
S.346, Perseus Verlag Basel, 1991
Gnther Wachsmuth
In seinen Vortrgen hat Rudolf Steiner darauf hingewiesen, dass
auch die
Hautfarbe der sogenannten schwarzen, gelben, roten und weissen
Rassen mit der
verschieden wirkenden Ich-Organisation zusammenhngt. (...) Wie
die Pflanzen
Ich-los und dumpf vegetierend den Wirkungen der Sonnenstrahlen
hingegeben sind
und das Kohlenstoffliche besonders bevorzugen, so ist bei den
Ich-schwachen
schwarzen Rassen der Kohlenstoff-Prozess zu stark bis in die
Haut
hineingedrungen und hat deren Farbe tingiert. Man kann also
sagen: die roten und
schwarzen Farbnuancen, wie sie sich sogar in der Haut ziegen,
entspringen aus
einer zu starken oder zu schwachen, d.h. anormalen
Ich-Entwicklung; die
Veranlagung zum normalen, mittleren Ausgleich der Extreme zeigt
sich in der
weissen Hautfarbe der europischen Rassen, welche die Aufgabe
haben, die richtig
ausgeglichene Ich-Entwicklung herbeizufhren.
Aus: Gnther Wachsmuth, Afrika als Organ der Erde,
Kindheitsstadien der Menschheit, S.43, in: Ga-Sophia, Jahrbuch
der naturwissenschaftlichen Sektion der Freien Hochschule fr
Geisteswissenschaft am Goetheanum Dornach, Band III,
Vlkerkunde, 1929. (Wachsmuth, 1893-1963, war jahrzehntelang
Generalsekretr der Allgemeinen Anthroposophischen Gesellschaft,
Anm: AKdH)
Karl Knig:
Man kann es gar nicht anders sagen, als dass nun diejenigen, die
in den Hochfen von Polen und Bayern und sterreich verbrannt
wurden, dass diejenigen durch ihren Opfertod Zeugenschaft
ablegten fr das Kommen des Christus in den Wolken, fr das
Erscheinen des Menschensohnes im therraum der Erde. Die
Vorzeichen haben sich umgekehrt: Die Phariser und Sadduzer,
Herodes und Ponti Pilati, sie trugen alle arische Leiber,
deutsche Gewnder, braune Hemden. Das sind die Juden unserer
Zeit geworden, die Verleugner jenes gewaltigen Ereignisses, das
sich im therischen vollzogen hat. Dieses Ereignis musste sein
Judas-Schiksal auf Erden finden und es ist gefunden worden.
(...) Niemals wird es gelingen durch Gerichtsverhandlungen jene
Taten zu richten oder zu shnen. Denn es sind Taten, gleich der
des Judas; Taten die geschehen mussten. Und der, der sie tat,
ist ja viel schlimmer daran als diejenigen, die sie erleiden
mussten...
Aus: Karl Knig, Geschichte und Schicksal des jdischen Volkes,
S. 40, 1986
Werner Georg Haverbeck
Als Ergebnis darf heute kein Lehrer oder Hochschulprofessor die
Frage der Kriegsschuld Deutschlands oder von
Massenvernichtungslagern ffentlich zur Diskussion stellen, ohne
sofort gemassregelt zu werden, denn hier handele es sich um
unbezweifelbare Tatbestnde. Sie sind schon deshalb nicht
anzuzweifeln, weil darauf - und wie wir jetzt meinen sagen zu
knnen: auf einer historischen Lge - Staaten der Nachkriegszeit
begrndet wurden, deren Existenz dadurch ebenfalls in Frage
gestellt wrde.
Aus: Werner Georg Haverbeck, Rudolf Steiner - Anwalt fr
Deutschland S. 324f
Dr. med. Sigmund Rascher (KZ Arzt, Dachau)
Brief an Himmler: Der im Bericht 4.IV. geschilderte Versuch
wurde bereits 4mal wiederholt, und zwar jedes Mal mit den
gleichen Resultaten. Die letzte VP Wagner liess ich nach
Atemstillstand durch Druckerhhung wieder ins Leben kommen. Das
die VP W. fr einen terminalen Versuch bestimmt, durch einen
neuerlichen Versuch kein neues Resultat in Aussicht stand,
ausserdem ihr Brief damals noch nicht in meinen Hnden war,
setzte ich anschliessend einen neuen Versuch an, den die VP W.
nicht berstand. Die Resultate der Herzstromabschreibung waren
auch in diesem Fall ausserordentliche.
Aus: Dachauer Herfte 4, Wolfgag Benz, Dr. med. Sigmund Rascher -
Eine Karriere,
S 202, Verl.DTV
Anm. AKdH: Rascher "erprobte" im KZ Dachau
(Unterkhlungsversuche) die von der Firma WELEDA gelieferte
"naturheilkundliche Frostschutzcreme". WELEDA bestritt, trotz
gegenteiliger Beweise, direkte Kontakte zur SS gehabt zu haben
(siehe: Flensburger Hefte Nr. 32, S. 51f
Ren Maikowsi
Aus einem Brief an Reichsminister Rudolf Hess (geschrieben auf
dem Briefpapier des "Bundes der Waldorfschulen".
Die Ablehnung des einseitig intellektuellen Elementes durch die
Pdagogik der Waldorfschulen und ihre betont christliche
Grundhaltung bringt es mit sich, dass die Juden nur geringes
Verstndnis fr die Waldorfschulen zeigen. Der Prozentsatz
jdischer Kinder ist daher sehr gering. (...) Die Unrichtigkeit
der Behauptung (Rudolf Steiner sei Jude, siehe Ariernachweis,
Anm. AKdH) ergibt sich aus Anlage 4. Auf Grund dieses Gutachtens
sind die Unwahrheiten ber die Persnlichkeit Dr. Steiners in
den Zeitungen verstummt. Die Schulen werden durchschnittlich 1,5
- 2% jdischer Kinder Besucht. Die Erfahrung hat gezeigt, dass
gerade jdische Kinder meist bald aus Waldorfschulen wieder
abgemeldet werden "wegen ihres zu christlichen Charakters".
Aus: Flensburger Hefte, Nr. 8, S. 75f
Stefan Leber:
Das Triebleben' des Schwarzen mit seiner stoffwechselhaften,
bewegungsfhigen Natur wird nur scheinbar abschtzig beurteilt
(bei Steiner, AKdH); in Wirklichkeit erweist es sich als
berlegenheit und Vorzug, nmlich als Schutz vor dem Fall in den
Materialismus und damit auch den Sozialdarwinismus, dem der
Weisse leicht erliegt.
Aus: Anthroposophie und Waldorfpdagogik in den Kulturen der
Welt, Hrsg. Stefan Leber, Stuttgart 1998, S.252
Ludwig Thieben:
Die arischen Vlker sind mehr sesshafter Natur; sie pflegen den
Ackerbau, Gewerbe, Kunst und Wissenschaft; sie sind
staatengrndend, mutig und tapfer; der Grundzug ihres Wesens ist
die Geradheit, Ehrlichkeit, Treue und Hingebung. Sie sind die
eigentlichen Kulturvlker.
Die echten Semiten hingegen sind von Nomaden; sie haben keine
eigentlich dauernden Wohnsitze, kein rechtes Vaterland. Sie
ziehen dahin, wo die beste Beute winkt. Sie bauen und bebauen
nichts selbst; sie suchen die durch fremden Fleiss geschaffenen
Kultursttten auf, beuten die vorhandenen gnstigen Verhltnisse
aus, grasen, sozusagen die Weidepltze ab und lassen sie
geplndert und verdet zurck. Ackerbau, Technik und Kunst ist
ihnen fremd, wie jede ehrlich schaffende Arbeit. Sie geben sich
den Anschein, als verachten sie die Arbeit, in Wahrheit aber
fehlen ihnen die Fhigkeiten dazu. (...) Der Jude aber ist
gleichsam der "Kulturbeduine"; er betreibt das selbe Geschft in
gewissermassen zivilisierter Form. Seine Domne ist der
"Handel", der bei ihm freilich einen sehr weiten Begriff deckt,
denn in der jdischen Sprache bedeutet das Wort "Masematten"
ebenso wohl ein Handelsgeschft wie ein Diebstahl.
Aus: Ludwig Thieben, Das Rtsel des Judentums, S. 36,
1931/1991,Perseus Verlag Basel.
Eine geistige Menschheitsmission ist im hebrisch-jdischen Volk
an die nationalen Blutskrfte und an das nationale
Blutsbewusstsein strengster Observanz gebunden.
Aus: Ludwig Thieben, Das Rtsel des Judentums, S. 41,
1931/1991,Perseus Verlag Basel.
Das geheimnisvolle, erschtternde Rtsel des Judentums ist in
der Frage beschlossen, wie aus dem Vorglanz des Christentums
dessen Schatten werden konnte.
Aus: Ludwig Thieben, Das Rtsel des Judentums, S. 42, 1931/1991,
Perseus Verlag Basel.
Die Unsterblichkeit, und zwar die volle Unsterblichkeit in einem
verklrten Leib, in einer auferweckten Seele und im schpferisch
erhhten Geiste ist die tiefste Sehnsucht der ganzen Menschheit;
dem ewigen Juden wird sie zum Fluch. In einem nicht verklrten
Erdenleibe ewig leben zu mssen ist der grsste Fluch, von dem
nur der Auferstehungsimpuls des Christus erlsen kann - daran
mahnen uns all die Legenden und Sagen von solchen Menschen, die
sich die Gnade des Sterbenknnens durch irgend eine Untat
verscherzt haben.
Aus: Ludwig Thieben, Das Rtsel des Judentums, S. 182, 1931/1991
Perseus Verlag Basel.
Thomas Meyer:
Dass die Juden als auserwhltes Volk die Aufgabe hatten, dem
Herrn' die Wege zu bereiten und darin als Volkheit bereits eine
Menschheitsmission erfllten, ist allgemein bekannt; auch wenn
sie denjenigen, dessen Kommen sie vorbereitet hatten, in ihren
massgeblichen Reprsentanten nicht erkannten und bis auf den
heutigen Tag nicht zu erkennen vermgen.
Aus: Deutsche und Juden: Zwei Menschheitsvlker als Nachwort in
Ludwig Thieben, Das Rtsel des Judentums, S. 240, 1991, Perseus
Verlag Basel.
Wenn - durch die Leiden des Holocaust - innerhalb des Judentums
immer mehr Menschen die Augen aufgehen werden fr die Tatsache,
dass die erneuten "Grosstaten"
Christi, von denen Herzl getrumt hat, in Wirklichkeit im
therisch-bersinnlichen Geistbereich der Erde zu suchen sind,
wo sie sich seit den 30er Jahren dieses Jahrhunderts fortwhrend
abspielen, so knnte es gerade der beste, sich fortentwickelnde
Teil des Judentums sein, der dem Deutschtum in Zukunft bei der
Verwirklichung seiner wahren Aufgabe beisteht. (Legitimierung
der Shoah, Anm. AkdH)
Aus: Deutsche und Juden: Zwei Menschheitsvlker als Nachwort in
Ludwig Thieben, Das Rtsel des Judentums, S. 254, 1991, Perseus
Verlag Basel.
Joseph Beuys
Ich fhre es darauf zurck (die Auslnderfeindlichkeit, Anm.
AKdH), dass das in den Menschen noch nicht sehr weit entwickelt
ist, diese berwindung von altem Blut. Dass das Blutsmssige
durchaus noch nicht berwunden ist. Es ist eine innere
Unfreiheit.
Aus: Frank Gieseke, Albert Markert, Flieger Filz und Vaterland -
Eine erweiterte Beuys Biografie, S. 162, 1996
Das kann ich ihnen sagen (zu einem hollndischen
Gesprchspartner an der Documenta 5 1972). Warum gibt es denn
berhaupt Hollnder? Warum sagt man das? Die haben doch ihre
eigene Sprache ... Das heisst, so wie Sie die Sprache formen, so
formen sich natrlich die Kinder ihre Bilder entsprechend. Das
ist eben die Fhigkeit der Hollnder, ... die Fhigkeit der
Hollnder unterscheidet sich von der Fhigkeit der Franzosen.
Das ist eine ganz andere Volksseele, sagen wir mal so. Eine ganz
andere Gruppenseele.
Aus: Frank Gieseke, Albert Markert, Flieger Filz und Vaterland -
Eine erweiterte Beuys Biografie, S. 180 f, 1996
Gerold Aregger
So ungeheuerlich die Verbrechen des Nationalsozialismus seelisch
auch wirken - der wissenschaftliche Verstand kann sich vllig
unbeeindruckt davon fragen: war das alles wirklich so?
Aus: Gerold Aregger, Zur Gestalt des Revisionismus in: Gegenwart
fortwirkender Nationalsozialismus, Homepage von Info3, Zugriff
am 8.6.1998 / Archiv Grandt
Irene Diet
In der Zeitschrift "Goetheanum" schreibt Irene Diet laut Info3
im Mai 1998 in einem Aufsatz, die " das Judentum pauschal als
unbelehrbaren weltgeschichtlichen Faktor, als zurckgebliebenes
Gruppenseelentum dar(stellt)".
Aus: Info3, 6, 1998, AKdH Archiv
Imme Scheurle-Prange
Ergnzt in einem Leserbrief zu Irene Diet:
Ich war mindestens acht Mal in Israel, habe Freunde dort unter
den Juden und ich mchte darauf aufmerksam machen, dass der
dortige Nationalismus (ist er nicht des Teufels?) getragen von
retardierenden jdischen Elementen eine Weltkatastrophe ist! Der
fanatische Judaismus heute ist ein berbleibsel dessen, was Frau
Diet schildert, und nicht mehr zeitgemss. Wer wollte dem
widersprechen!
Aus: Info3, 7, 1998
Hans Erhard Lauer
Und dieses Hinuntertragen, dieses Durchimprgnieren des
Fleisches mit dem
Geiste, das ist das Charakteristische der Mission der weissen
Menschheit. Die
Menschen haben ihre weisse Hautfarbe aus dem Grunde, weil der
Geist in der Haut
dann wirkt, wenn er auf den physischen Plan heruntersteigen
will. Dass dasjenige,
was usserer, physischer Leib ist, Gehuse wird fr den Geist,
das ist die
Aufgabe unserer fnften Kulturepoche, die vorbereitet worden ist
durch die
anderen vier Kulturepochen. (...) Wenn wir dies ganz erkennen,
dann werden wir
uns auch ganz klar sein darber, dass da, wo der Geist noch als
Geist wirken
will, wo er in gewisser Weise zurckbleiben soll in seiner
Entwicklung..., dass
da wo er zurckbleibt, wo er einen dmonischen Charakter
annimmt, das Fleisch
nicht vollstndig durchdringt - dass da weisse Hautfarbe nicht
auftritt, weil
atavistische Krfte da sind, die den Geist nicht vollstndig mit
dem Fleisch in
Einklang kommen lassen.
Aus: Hans Erhard Lauer, Geschichte als Stufengang der
Menschwerdung, Erster Band, Freiburg i.Br., 1956, S.251. (Lauer,
1899-1979, war fhrender Funktionr der sterreichischen
anthroposophischen Gesellschaft. Nach der bersiedlung in die
Schweiz unterrichtete er bis Mitte der 60er Jahre an den
Rudolf-Steiner-Schulen in Basel und Zrich, Anm. AKdH)
Prof. Ernst von Hippel
Vielleicht deutlicher noch als Worte bringt dazu die bisher
einschneidendste Massnahme der Hochschulpolitik, die Entfernung
der Juden von der Universitt, die Ablehnung des alten
Wissenschaftsgeistes zum Ausdruck. Sollte doch durch sie der
typische Vertreter des bisherigen Denkens und damit dieses
selber in seiner personellen Verleiblichung getroffen werden.
(...) Und tatschlich fand sich hier (bei den jdischen
Dozenten, Anm. AKdH) in auffallender Weise das rationale
Vermgen einer alten Rasse in jener vegetationslosen und
wstenhaften Strenge, die keinen geistigen Inhalt mehr zu kennen
scheint. (...) Dem vielfach unbeholfenen Tasten der deutschen
Seele nach dem konkreten Geist trat die abstrakte und
glaubensgebundene Ratio des Judentums auflsend entgegen.
Aus: Ernst von Hippel, Die Universitt im neuen Staat,
Knigsberg, 1933, S. 12, 19, 20f
Wilhelm Lewerenz
Aus seiner Musiktheorie: Die chinesische Musik offenbare dem
freigeistigen Europer eine "Kultur der Pedanterie", in der
hebrischen Musik herrsche der Wille vor und bei den Klngen der
Arier verspre man "ein wunderbar-trumerisches Element, ein
Gtterkind, das den Menschen zu Freud und Trost gesandt.
Aus: Peter Bierl: Wurzelrassen, Erzengel und Volksgeister, S.
157
Monika Neve
Und auf Atlantis differenzieren sich die hheren Sugetiere,
Affen und
bestimmte Menschenrassen heraus. Nur aus den entwicklungsfhig
gebleibenen
Leibern der fortschreitenden Menschheit entstehen die Kulturen,
die die
nachatlantische Zeit an ihr Ziel bringen soll. - Rudolf Steiner
weist in diesem
Zusammenhang immer wieder darauf hin, dass die sogenannten
wilden, die
"Naturvlker", nicht einen frheren Zustand der Menschheit bis
in unsere Zeit
hineintragen, sondern gewissermassen Degenerationen vormals
hherer Kulturen
darstellen.
Aus: Monika Neve, Waldorflehrerin, New Age als Ablenkung? Eine
Analyse der New Age Bewegung aus anthroposophischer Sicht,
Raisdorf/Kiel, 1989)
Michael Klussmann
Rudolf Steiner hat die natrliche Ungleichheit der
"Populationen" nicht anders
erklrt als die moderne Biologie und Anthropologie."
Aus: Michael Klussmann, Zum Rassismus-Streit, III. Das Problem
der Dekadenz, in: Das Goetheanum, 75. Jahrgang, 1996/97, S.379)
Klaus-Peter Endres, Wolfgang Schad und Christof Lindenau sind
sehr ausfhrlich
und hchst anregend auf das indianische Dekadenzproblem
eingegangen, das in der Einsicht zusammenzufassen wre, da in
denkwrdiger Weise die gewaltige
Geistigkeit des indianischen Menschen mit einer vorzeitigen
Verhrtung des
physischen Leibes verbunden gewesen ist. Dadurch sei ein Gesetz
jeder Evolution
verletzt worden, wonach ein zeitlich Frheres von so offener und
schmiegsamer
Struktur sein msse, da an ihm sptere Entwicklungskrfte
plastizieren
knnten. (Michael Klumann, a.a.O., S.380)
Bernhard Schaub
Ehem. Waldorf Geschichtslehrer.
Schaub hatte 1992 in seinem Konradin Verlag in Brugg AG die
erwhnte Schrift ( Adler und Rose, Anm: AKdH), die in wenigen
anthroposophischen beziehungsweise freiwirtschaftlichen
Zeitschriften positiv besprochen wurden. (...) Er zeigt sich
darin berzeugt, dass Vergasungen in keinem dieser Lager
(Konzentrationslager, Anm. AKdH) stattgefunden haben knnen.
Aus: Jrg Frischknecht, Peter Niggli, Rechte Seilschaften, S.
674, 1998
Meines Wissens ist der amerikanische Gaskammerexperte Fred
Leuchter (int. bekannter Holocaust Leugner, Anm. AKdH) , der
Exekutionsanlagen fr Gefngnisse in den Vereinigten Staaten
herstellt, der erste gewesen, der naturwissenschaftliche
Untersuchungen in Auschwitz, Birkenau und Majdanek anstellte. Im
April 1988 gab er sein Gutachten zuhanden eines kanadischen
Gerichts ab. Er zeigt sich darin berzeugt, dass Vergasungen in
keinem dieser Lager stattgefunden haben knnten; dies sei
bautechnisch und auch im Hinblick auf die Entsorgung vllig
ausgeschlossen. Erhebliche Rckstnde von Zyklon B in den
Gesteins- und Mrtelproben aus den sogenannten Gaskammern hat er
nicht gefunden.
Aus: Bernhard Schaub, Adler und Rose. Wissen und Schicksal des
deutschsprachigen Mitteleuropa. S.94, Konradin-Verlag. Baden,
1992.
Ein Dokument aus dem Waldorfschulunterricht:
Atlantis und die Existenz von verschiedenen "Menschenrassen"
wird noch heute an Waldorfschulen Kindern als Teil der
"Weltgeschichte" unterrichtet!
Gstebuch
Aktion Kinder des Holocaust
__________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2544.2 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999 WAS: Re: anti-cult legislation proposed in France:2nd set of 10
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:36:29 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com) wrote:
) --- Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com) wrote:
) ) Excerpt from the 1995 [1999] Report of the Parliamentary
) ) Commission on Cults at
) )
)
http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/2/cenq/rap-enq/r2468.htm#page12
) (snip)
I cut and paste below the original French language excerpts from
the 1999 Report previously posted in translation for the benefit
of those who read and speak French, or who would like to compare
the translation with the original.
Luke
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
from:
http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/2/dossiers/sectes/r1687p1.htm
b) Une tendance la dspcialisation
Les mouvements sectaires ont connu, au cours des dernires
annes, un processus de relative dspcialisation ou
d'indiffrenciation. Les frontires entre les catgories sont
devenues beaucoup moins rigides. De plus en plus, on rencontre
diverses composantes au sein d'une mme secte. Ainsi, les
alternatives, les gurisseuses et les psychanalytiques ont
propag leur objet dominant comme composantes d'autres
mouvements. Leur objet donnant lieu des activits
particulirement lucratives, beaucoup de leurs cons_urs ont
cherch les agrger leur objet principal. On forcerait
peine le trait en disant que le prototype de la secte moderne
est celui qui permet d'intgrer le maximum de thmes diffrents.
Ainsi, la Scientologie et les nbuleuses Prima Verba et
Anthroposophie, que l'on rencontrera plusieurs reprises au
cours de ce rapport, offrent un ensemble complet de prestations
qui en font les hypermarchs des produits sectaires : on y
dispense des confrences, des cours, des sminaires de
dveloppement personnel, des stages de formation
professionnelle, on y vend des produits qui gurissent le Sida
comme la calvitie, on y pratique des cultes qui vous mettent en
rapport, au choix ou en bloc, avec les anges, les disparus, les
divinits de toutes sortes ; on peut y sauver votre entreprise
si elle rencontre des difficults conomiques, ou votre famille
si elle prouve le mal de l'incommunicabilit entre les tres ;
on peut vous y aider vous dbarrasser de vos ennemis, et bien
sr, on peut vous y enrichir, le tout des tarifs d'amis qui
deviennent progressivement monstrueux ...
Cette tendance l'indiffrenciation se manifeste le plus
souvent par l'adjonction dans un premier temps d'une composante
nouvel-ge ou gurisseuse dans un groupe de type originel
diffrent.
Le processus de dspcialisation s'accompagne d'un dveloppement
des rseaux qui gravitent la priphrie des sectes, de
l'apparition de filiales prenant souvent le statut de
socits commerciales et d'infiltration d'entreprises o un
adepte occupe une position stratgique.
--------------------------
En revanche, des organisations non releves dans le prcdent
rapport mais qui, d'une part, remplissent certains des critres
sectaires retenus dans le rapport de 1995 (2), d'autre part, ont
acquis un poids conomique et financier certain, ont t
signales la Commission qui, au vu des lments d'information
recueillis, a souhait les inclure dans le champ de ses
investigations : il en va ainsi de l'Ancien et mystique ordre de
la Rose-Croix (AMORC), de l'Anthroposophie, de Prima Verba, d'Au
C_ur de la Communication (ACC) et de Stop au Cancer.
---------------------------
Le rseau de l'Anthroposophie dispose galement de deux
structures de financement travers la Nouvelle conomie
fraternelle et la Socit financire de la nouvelle conomie
fraternelle. La premire est une association forme afin
d'exprimenter des relations d'entraide conomique et
financire se fondant, en particulier, sur une circulation
transparente de l'argent, claire par une conscience altruiste
. La seconde est un organisme bancaire cr sous la forme d'une
socit cooprative anonyme affilie la Caisse centrale de
crdit coopratif. Agre par la Banque de France en 1988, elle
est habilite recevoir du capital et de l'pargne et peut
consentir des prts. L'association reoit des cotisations, des
dons et des subventions (manant de la Fondation de France, de
la Fondation d'entreprise de la MACIF ou de la Dlgation
gnrale l'innovation et l'conomie sociale). Ses ressources
annuelles, estimes 800.000 francs en 1994, lui permettent
d'affecter une subvention d'quilibre la socit financire.
Elles sont galement utilises pour accueillir les demandeurs de
crdits, et financer l'tude et l'accompagnement de leurs
projets. Il s'agit d'une aide pralable destine assurer la
russite des programmes pour lesquels la socit financire
dcide d'accorder des prts. Le capital social de cette dernire
atteignait, la fin de 1994, 9,3 millions de francs, et, la
mme date, une augmentation de capital de 15 millions de francs
tait envisage. La banque proposait deux produits financiers :
les comptes de dpts terme et le livret NEF-crdit
coopratif dont les caractristiques taient proches du livret
A de la Caisse d'pargne. Elle disposait en 1994 d'un encours
d'pargne de 13 millions de francs pour les comptes terme et
de 10 millions de francs pour les livrets.
---------------------------------
PART II
d) Les techniques de commercialisation des doctrines
On connat assez bien les techniques traditionnelles, inaugures
et dveloppes par les Tmoins de Jhovah et faisant
principalement appel au dmarchage domicile. Les adeptes de ce
mouvement ont, depuis longtemps, l'obligation d'effectuer un
minimum d'heures de dmarchage, par semaine ou par mois, et de
placer, dans ce cadre, un maximum de publications exposant et
commentant leur doctrine. Cette obligation s'accompagne, pour en
garantir l'efficacit, d'une obligation de compte rendu
d'activit et de rsultat. L'encadrement des adeptes en vue de
les former cette tche, de les rappeler rgulirement leurs
devoirs et de les motiver pour obtenir des rsultats encore
suprieurs, est assur au niveau central, Louviers, par des
sessions de formation rgulires de prdicateurs ensuite
missionns sur le terrain.
Pour encadrer ses adeptes, la secte jhoviste est indniablement
aide par le caractre litiste de sa doctrine. Leur zle est
trs certainement attis par cette conception du statut selon
laquelle seuls les adeptes les plus mritants peuvent prtendre
tre compts parmi le trs petit nombre d'lus le jour du
jugement dernier.
Mais la technique des Tmoins de Jhovah a t dpasse, dans sa
sophistication, par des mthodes beaucoup plus labores mises
au point par des mouvements plus rcents.
Ces mthodes peuvent tre classes en 4 catgories, que l'on
illustrera, chaque fois, de l'exemple le plus significatif : la
technique de l'offrande participative (Mahikari), celle de
la chane des tarifs d'excellence (la Scientologie), celle de
la modlisation de la russite du gourou (Prima Verba),
celle enfin de la fraternisation financire
(l'Anthroposophie).
. La technique de l'offrande participative
Cette technique consiste sophistiquer l'extrme le discours
sur l'argent sollicit des adeptes et complexifier au maximum
la qualification de leurs contributions.
Les membres de la secte font des offrandes dans lesquelles ils
sont invits participer la ralisation de l'objet de chacune
d'elles.
Les discours des Doshi (missionnaires de Mahikari)
expliquent ainsi que chaque situation de la vie correspond
une offrande : quand on est heureux, malheureux,
reconnaissant... plus on fait d'offrandes, plus on compense ses
impurets par du travail au centre pour les autres, pour Dieu,
pour ses anctres, plus on vite des problmes l'avenir .
Les offrandes se divisent en deux grandes catgories : les
horizontales qui servent financer le fonctionnement des
centres et les verticales, elles-mmes divises en :
- remerciements pour la lumire reue ;
- offrande pour demander pardon des impurets accumules par les
anctres ;
- offrande de fte mensuelle de remerciement Dieu ;
- offrande de protection sociale, subdivise elle-mme en deux
offrandes de demande et une de remerciement ;
- offrande pour le maintien du lien spirituel cr par
l'intermdiaire du mdaillon transmettant la lumire ;
- offrande pour btir et entretenir le sanctuaire et le muse du
fondateur.
-----------------------------------------------
. La technique de la fraternisation financire
Cette technique consiste convaincre les adeptes de placer leur
argent dans un organisme spcialis dans l'octroi des prts
des projets ou pour des secours qui ne trouveraient pas leur
financement dans le circuit bancaire normal.
Ainsi, il est promis l'adepte, en situation de dposant, des
taux d'intrt suprieurs ceux du march et l'adepte en
situation d'emprunteur des concours qu'il ne pourrait obtenir
autrement.
Naturellement, dans l'univers sectaire, le procd s'intgre
dans un discours qui se veut chaleureux et englobant, comme en
tmoignent les documents de prsentation de la Nouvelle
Economie Fraternelle , socit financire de l'Anthroposophie :
L'association a t cre par des pdagogues, des
agriculteurs, des mdecins, des artistes, des responsables
d'entreprise qui ont voulu exprimenter entre eux et entre leurs
institutions des formes nouvelles d'entraide financire et
conomique au-del des frontires du mutualisme catgoriel...
Avec l'argent provenant des dons qu'elle s'efforce de recueillir
(cotisations et dons au fonds de solidarit), elle intervient
pour aider et conseiller des initiatives qui peuvent ne relever
ni du concours bancaire ni de prestations factures .
Fin 1994, le capital de la NEF s'levait 9.300.000 francs, son
encours d'pargne tait de 13 millions de francs pour les
comptes terme et de 10 millions de francs pour les livrets.
Cette dernire technique nous montre que certaines sectes
dpassent les modes de fonctionnement traditionnels du phnomne
: elle se situe bien plus dans le champ des institutions
financires et des entreprises que dans celui des associations
prtention cultuelle.
Les sectes sont, en outre, sorties de leur cadre
pseudo-religieux pour investir les secteurs conomiques leur
porte : l'ducation, la sant et la formation professionnelle.
------------------------
B.- LE SECTEUR DE L'DUCATION
Il est dans la nature mme des mouvements sectaires d'essayer
d'intervenir dans le domaine ducatif puisque celui-ci offre au
proslytisme des possibilits d'expansion considrables.
L'embrigadement des enfants avait dj t relev par la
prcdente commission d'enqute, qui avait rpertori 28
organisations caractrises par cette pratique.
Le phnomne parat s'tre encore accentu : il ressort des
informations recueillies par la Commission qu'une soixantaine de
mouvements sectaires interviennent auprs des enfants sous des
formes multiples. On peut estimer aujourd'hui qu'environ 50.000
enfants subissent, des titres et des degrs divers, une
influence sectaire, que 500 mineurs environ vivent dans des
communauts fermes et qu' peu prs 6.000 enfants sont
astreints une scolarit hors normes.
Ainsi, plusieurs mouvements sectaires refusent la scolarisation
des enfants et dispensent leur propre ducation, complte
parfois de cours par correspondance. C'est notamment le cas de
La Famille (anciennement Les Enfants de Dieu), de la Fdration
franaise pour la conscience de Krishna, de La Ferme
(anciennement Tabitha's place), d'Horus et d'Ogyen Kunzang
Chling.
D'autres organisations s'efforcent d'infiltrer le monde de
l'enfance par la formule des stages et des sminaires dans le
domaine des loisirs mais aussi du soutien scolaire et du
dveloppement culturel. Il en va notamment ainsi d'Anthropos
(stages d'activation mentale ), de la mthode Silva
(sminaires d'amlioration des performances scolaires),
d'Invitation la vie (plerinages et activits artistiques pour
enfants), du Mouvement du Graal (sminaires sur le thme de la
sexualit et du spiritisme), de l'Office culturel de Cluny
(nombreux sminaires et enseignements dans le domaine
artistique) et de la Mditation transcendantale (qui a cr une
structure pour enfants-mditants et propose des cours afin
de mieux connatre son intrieur ).
Dans la plupart des cas, le proslytisme destination des
enfants et l'embrigadement prcoce des futurs adeptes ne se
traduisent pas de faon notable sur le plan conomique et
financier. C'est pourquoi la Commission n'a pas souhait
dvelopper ce sujet la hauteur de ce qu'il mriterait, compte
tenu de la gravit des menaces et des atteintes, psychiques et
physiques, que la mouvance sectaire fait subir aux mineurs. Elle
tient toutefois signaler son importance et appeler
l'attention du Gouvernement sur la ncessit de prolonger
l'examen de la question, auquel a procd, en dcembre 1998, le
ministre de l'Intrieur, par la dfinition d'une politique
adapte la protection de l'enfance.
L'entre des sectes dans l'ducation se fait selon trois voies
principales :
- le recrutement d'enseignants ;
- la commercialisation de mthodes ducatives ;
- la prise de contrle d'tablissements.
Par ailleurs, le recrutement des assistantes maternelles peut
poser problme.
--------------------------------
3.- Les tablissements contrls
Trois mouvements sectaires importants, l'Anthroposophie, la
Scientologie et le Mouvement ralien, se sont attachs crer
ou prendre le contrle d'tablissements d'enseignement privs
hors contrat, du primaire et du secondaire. L encore, au-del
du proslytisme, les enjeux financiers ne sont pas ngliger.
On compte en France une trentaine d'coles se rclamant de la
pdagogie de Rudolf Steiner, fondateur et inspirateur de
l'Anthroposophie qui se veut l'hritire de sa doctrine.
------------------------------
Alors que les tarifs de la scolarit affichs peuvent tre
considrs, pour certaines familles, abordables (entre 14.000 et
18.000 francs par an), l'Inspection de l'Education nationale a
repr des tablissements o les tarifs pratiqus taient si
levs que des parents d'lves, afin de pouvoir les honorer,
s'taient trouvs contraints de travailler pour
l'Anthroposophie.
-------------------------------
. Des mouvements ayant des activits annexes dans le secteur de
la sant
(...)
. L'Anthroposophie, dj voque travers les coles Steiner,
exerce, paralllement la pdagogie, d'importantes activits
thrapeutiques.
Elle s'appuie, d'une part, sur un important rseau de
praticiens, fdrs dans l'Association mdicale anthroposophique
de France (AMAF), d'autre part, sur plusieurs centres
thrapeutiques qui accueillent notamment de jeunes handicaps,
enfin sur les laboratoires Weleda, qui emploient environ 180
personnes la fabrication de produits cosmtiques et
dittiques mais aussi de prparations mdicamenteuses.
Officiellement, la mdecine anthroposophique n'implique pas
l'abandon de la mdecine traditionnelle. On cite cependant des
cas de patients, atteints de leucmie, de troubles
neuroleptiques ou de cancer du sein, dont on avait arrt le
traitement mdical pour les soigner exclusivement avec des
poudres ayant subi des manipulations spirituelles , des
massages, des tisanes et... le port de maillot de corps en soie
(susceptible de gurir le cancer).
------------------------
. Les sectes reconverties dans la formation professionnelle
Plusieurs mouvements sectaires, connus pour des pratiques
extrieures au monde de l'entreprise, se sont reconvertis dans
la formation professionnelle.
Anthropos fait partie des sectes rpertories parmi les
mouvements issus du Nouvel-ge. Fonde sur le holisme,
c'est--dire sur une conception pistmologique qui relie chaque
nonc scientifique au domaine dans lequel il voit le jour,
cette secte cherche dvelopper l'homme dans son corps et
dans son esprit . Cre par Bernard Alexandre, Anthropos a
trouv un dbouch dans la formation par la conception d'un
sminaire d'activation mentale mlangeant des techniques
sophrologiques et de la programmation neuro-linguistique. Ce
stage a t introduit sur le march par plusieurs organismes
immatriculs auprs de l'administration de la formation
professionnelle. Il est actuellement propos aux entreprises par
le Centre Michel Odoul, du nom du successeur de Bernard
Alexandre dcd en 1996, qui a dclar rgulirement son
activit au SRC d'Ile-de-France, et semble constituer la
structure la plus active.
L'Institut des sciences holistiques de l'Ouest appartient la
mme mouvance. Fonde dans la rgion de Nantes, cette secte a
connu une expansion importante partir du dbut des annes 1980
avec la cration de plusieurs structures de vente de produits
dittiques, sotriques ou biologiques. Elle s'est plus
rcemment investie sur le march de la formation
professionnelle, ses deux dirigeants, MM. Jean-Pierre Le Gouguec
et Gilles Pag s'tant immatriculs auprs du SRC de Bretagne
comme formateurs individuels. A ce titre, ils ont dispens, sous
le couvert de leur numro d'immatriculation, des stages
intituls soins du corps nergtique destins former des
thrapeutes capables d'appliquer les techniques de la secte et
de traiter ses thmes favoris, comme le reiki, le karma et la
rincarnation, la cristallo-thrapie ou les lixirs floraux.
D'une dure totale de 130 heures rparties sur une ou deux
annes, ces stages ont t suivis par des personnes titre
individuel et leurs frais. Une autre convention de formation
fait tat d'une prestation intitule psychologie holistique
qui se droule sur trois ans afin d'initier des
psychothrapeutes spcialiss dans les relations humaines et les
phnomnes d'mergence spirituelle. Le produit annuel tir de
ces formations, tel qu'il ressort des dclarations faites par
les deux formateurs, se situe selon l'exercice entre 354.237 et
664.162 francs par an et par personne. On notera galement
qu'une attestation justifiant l'exonration de TVA a t fournie
aux deux formateurs.
---------------------------
. Les sectes ayant une activit de formation annexe
Plusieurs sectes, parfois importantes par le nombre de leurs
adeptes ou leur poids financier, et souvent connues du grand
public pour leur proslytisme exerc l'extrieur de
l'entreprise, ont dcid de crer des organismes de formation.
Il s'agit d'une branche d'activit particulire, parfois situe
au sein d'une organisation aux ramifications complexes et
pluri-sectorielles, destine asseoir l'influence de la secte
dans la sphre conomique.
Trs active dans le secteur de l'ducation, l'Anthroposophie a
logiquement constitu des organismes de formation, et notamment
le Foyer Michal, centre pour adultes spcialis dans le
dveloppement personnel, qui a dclar avoir atteint un chiffre
d'affaires de 551.576 francs pour l'exercice 1997-1998, dont une
partie a t finance par un FONGECIF et par l'Etat. Dans la
mme mouvance, NEF conseil SARL et l'Ecole libre Rudolph Steiner
bnficient ou ont bnfici d'une immatriculation auprs d'un
SRC.
----------------------------
2.- Les grandes sectes
On peut regrouper sous cette appellation huit des trente sectes
prsentes en annexe. Il s'agit de mouvements qui, sans
atteindre les montants recueillis par les Tmoins de Jhovah et
la Scientologie, drainent plusieurs dizaines de millions de
francs chaque anne. La Soka Gakka est, par sa richesse, la
troisime secte implante en France : son patrimoine, acquis en
partie grce aux apports venant de l'organisation mre,
reprsente 240 millions de francs, et son budget annuel atteint,
certains exercices, une vingtaine de millions de francs.
Viennent ensuite l'AMORC avec un actif net comptable de 140
millions de francs et une trentaine de millions de recettes
annuelles, puis Mahikari avec respectivement 60 et 15 millions
de francs. On trouve galement l'Eglise no-apostolique dont les
recettes sont estimes, certaines annes, prs de 20 millions
de francs, et qui dispose d'un patrimoine immobilier estim
plus de 130 millions de francs.
Bien que la Commission ne dispose pas d'lments directement
issus de leur comptabilit, le Mandarom et l'Anthroposophie
disposent indiscutablement d'une grosse fortune . Les
mouvements de fonds raliss par la premire atteignent en effet
plusieurs dizaines de millions de francs, et les immeubles de la
seconde sont estims plus de 33 millions de francs.
Par ailleurs, deux mouvements dtiennent encore
---------------------------
3.- Les financements publics
Les sectes bnficient de financements publics qui, dans
quelques cas, peuvent reprsenter leur troisime source de
financement. Les montants en cause n'ont heureusement pas de
commune mesure avec les revenus tirs des dons et des activits
sectaires. Ils constituent cependant une bonne illustration de
la capacit des sectes agir sous couvert de structures crans
ou de prte-noms, et la grande vulnrabilit de l'administration
souvent incapable de contrler l'identit et la ralit des
pratiques des organismes qu'elle subventionne.
(...)
La Commission a eu galement connaissance de subventions verses
par la ville de Chatou, le conseil gnral des Yvelines et le
conseil rgional d'Ile-de-France l'Ecole Perceval. Cette
dernire appartient au rseau des tablissements d'enseignement
contrls par la socit d'Anthroposophie.
---------------------------
b) Le parc immobilier des sectes
L'immobilier reste l'investissement prfr des sectes. Ralis
soit directement par les associations, soit par l'intermdiaire
de socits civiles immobilires, il leur permet de disposer des
locaux utiles aux diffrents rites ou sances qui ponctuent la
vie de la secte. Mais ce type d'investissement est aussi un
moyen d'couler, et parfois de blanchir, les sommes verses en
espces que les sectes reoivent de leurs adeptes.
Chacun connat des exemples de chteaux acquis par une
secte. Il est indniable que les mouvements sectaires disposent
de la puissance financire suffisante pour procder de telles
acquisitions, mais aussi, grce leurs adeptes, de la
main-d'_uvre gratuite susceptible de les entretenir. L'intrt
des sectes pour les demeures historiques a t jug suffisamment
inquitant pour que la Direction du patrimoine s'en alarme, et
attire l'attention sur les exemples de spoliation de sites
classs ou inscrits, la suite de leur occupation par des
associations sectaires.
Le got des sectes pour les vieilles pierres n'est pas une
fausse rputation. Les exemples sont multiples. Citons Krishna
install au chteau de Bellevue dans le Jura et au domaine
d'Oublaisse dans l'Indre ; Tradition famille proprit disposant
travers l'association Avenir de la culture du chteau de Jaglu
dans l'Eure et Loir ; la Nouvelle Acropole propritaire de la
Cour Ptral, ancien monastre situ dans le mme dpartement ;
l'Office culturel de Cluny qui dispose du chteau de Machy dans
le Rhne ; Orkos install au chteau de Montram en
Seine-et-Marne...
(...)
En tout tat de cause, ces valuations permettent de situer la
fortune immobilire des sectes. Plusieurs organisations sortent
du lot et sont la tte d'un parc suprieur une centaine de
millions de francs. Outre les Tmoins de Jhovah, il s'agit de
la Soka Gakka qui a procd des acquisitions de prestige,
l'Eglise no-apostolique qui s'est offert un parc immobilier
afin d'accueillir ses fidles dans les meilleures conditions et
Dianova dont les investissements immobiliers ont t dnoncs
par la Cour des comptes. Viennent ensuite l'AMORC,
l'Anthroposophie, Moon, Mahikari et la Fraternit blanche
universelle dont le patrimoine se chiffre en dizaine de millions
de francs. Pour leur part, Krishna, Tradition Famille Proprit,
le Mouvement du Graal, l'Office culturel de Cluny, les Roses
Croix d'or et la Pentecte de Besanon se situent entre 10 et 15
millions de francs, les autres sectes se trouvant en de.
-------------------------------
c) Des investissements au service des pratiques sectaires
Quelle que soit sa forme, le patrimoine acquis par les sectes
reprsente un investissement destin accrotre son influence.
Il a, en premier lieu, pour objectif de mettre l'organisation
l'abri du besoin, notamment en lui procurant des revenus
rguliers tirs, par exemple, de placements financiers. Certains
mouvements disposent mme de proprits agricoles qui peuvent
faire vivre la communaut installe sur place. C'est le cas de
Dianova et de Krishna. Les comptes de la Soka Gakka font
galement apparatre des revenus agricoles tirs de la proprit
que la secte possde Trets dans les Bouches-du-Rhne.
Les investissements sont surtout utiliss pour les activits
sectaires proprement dites. Anims et mis en valeur par les
adeptes invits offrir bnvolement leurs services, les
immeubles acquis par la secte sont autant de lieux de
propagation de son message.
Les mouvements sectaires achtent principalement des lieux de
runion. Deux cas d'acquisition de salles de cinma ont t
ports la connaissance de la Commission. En dehors de
l'exemple des Tmoins de Jhovah, la fortune immobilire de
mouvements comme Mahikari ou la Pentecte de Besanon s'appuie
sur la proprit de lieux de cultes rpartis dans les
dpartements o la secte bnficie d'une audience. L'Eglise
no-apostolique dispose Metz d'une glise de 1.600 m2,
construite sur un terrain de 60 ares, capable d'accueillir 1.300
personnes et offrant des installations techniques trs modernes.
Le Mandarom vient de dposer un permis de construire pour
l'dification de la spulture de Gilbert Bourdin dont le cot
est estim 50 millions de francs.
Les diffrents chteaux acquis par les sectes sont souvent
destins servir de local pour les confrences, les cours ou
les sminaires qu'elles dispensent. Par exemple, les Roses Croix
d'or utilisent cette fin leur chteau de Tourtel en
Meurthe-et-Moselle ou le domaine de Rieusselat dans l'Hrault.
L'AMORC a rcupr Orlans les anciens entrepts de Dunlop
pour y runir les initis de la rgion. Elle est surtout
propritaire, par l'intermdiaire d'une socit commerciale, de
l'Espace AMORC sis 199 Rue Saint Martin Paris, qui forme un
complexe de 2.500 m2 modulables, compos de 10 salles rparties
sur trois niveaux, d'un auditorium de 400 places, d'une
librairie et d'une galerie d'art. On peut enfin citer l'exemple
de la Socit anthroposophique qui dispose, outre 24 proprits
utilises comme tablissements scolaires ou prscolaires, de
plusieurs lieux de culte et de diffrentes structures
d'hbergement.
---------------------------
PART III
[NOTHING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT ANTHROPOSOPHY]
----------------------------
APPENDICES:
A huge section on anthroposophy at:
http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/2/dossiers/sectes/r1687anx.htm#P125_7334
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2544 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2545 --------------
001 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism: Mone for The Thir
002 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
003 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Stereotypes and Anthroposophy
004 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re:
005 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Admin: changing list to egroups Oct. 1
006 - "Heather Duke" (profoundi - Joan Almon in Wired magazine online
007 - Deborah Kelly (deborah_ke - Re: EMail from list user - waldorf-critics
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2545.1 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism: Mone for The Third Reich
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 15:18:47 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Further evidence of common ground between Anthroposophy and
Nazism is furnished by the following abstract from Dissertations
Abstracts Online (with apologies to Dan: reformatting by
removing all the extra spaces and returns are all I could manage
to do for cleaning up the copy to make it more readable).
Luke
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Subj: (1 of 1) MONEY FOR THE THIRD REICH: THE NAZI'S
FINANCIAL LEGERDEMAIN, 1933-1938
SEARCH STRING: su:(Rudolf Steiner)
DATABASE: Dissertation Abstracts Online
ACCESSION NO.: AAG9919094
TITLE: MONEY FOR THE THIRD REICH: THE NAZI'S
FINANCIAL LEGERDEMAIN, 1933-1938
(ECONOMIC THEORY, MONETARY POLICIES, GERMANY)
AUTHOR: PREPARATA, GUIDO GIACOMO
DEGREE: PH.D.
YEAR: 1998
INSTITUTION: UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA; 0208
ADVISER: Chair: JOHN E. ELLIOTT
SOURCE: DAI, VOL. 60-02A, Page 0503, 00273 Pages
DESCRIPTORS: ECONOMICS, HISTORY; ECONOMICS, THEORY;
HISTORY, EUROPEAN
ABSTRACT: Approximately seven million unemployed—a
fourth of Germany's labor force—was
fully reemployed in less than four years under
Hitler.
The protagonist of the financial counterpart to
this swift resurgence of industrial might in the face of
forthcoming hostility, was central banker Hjalmar
Schacht. Rearmament and a semblance of prosperity across
the German Fatherland were punctuated by the
issue of a number of enigmatic (italic)bills(/italic), which
formed the network of monetary circulation in the
Hitlerite regime. The present work attempts to unravel
the mechanisms and origin of the “special paper”
that financed the Recovery and the war effort. The dissertation
is divided into two parts. The first part is a factual account
of the monetary policies (both domestic and international)
pursued by the Reichsbank under the direction of Schacht,
followed by a statistical review of the economic performance of
the Third Reich. The second part concerns itself with the
economics of the Nazis' financial exploits; it comprises
four chapters. Each of these analyzes a separate aspect of the
Recovery through the works of unorthodox thinkers that sought to
identify the (monetary) causes of modern depressions and
unemployment. The ideas of monetary crank Silvio Gesell and
Christian mystic Rudolf Steiner are reviewed herein; a parallel
is then made between the program of “Work Creation”
launched by Hitler in collusion with the Interests revolving
round the Reichsbank and the prophetic tones of the second part
of Goethe's (italic)Faust(/italic). A third section reviews the
main themes of Douglas's “Social Credit”; as with
the theories of Gesell and Steiner, the purpose of this chapter
is to trace any similarities between the remedies of the Nazis
and the “plans” contrived in the midst of economic
collapse. In general, in order to account for the spectacular
upswing of the Hitlerites, the second part of the work seeks to
trace an “unconscious heeding” on the part of Nazi
authorities to the prescriptions and palliatives devised by a
spate of contemporary reformers. A final chapter is devoted to
the so-called “Keynesian theory” and its presumed
affinity with the financial stratagems effected by Schacht.
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2545.2 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Common Ground: Anthroposophy and Nazism
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 15:37:56 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com) wrote:
(snip)
) Your response and referrals, corrections, etc. are welcomed;
) it
) is unfortunate that you chose to offer them in an offensive,
) hostile, insulting and destructive spirit.
Although it is implicit in the above text, I wish to make it
plain that I do acknowledge my error in attributing the book on
Parzival to Dietrich Eckart and that it was indeed the version
by Wolfram von Eschenbach that I was given. HOwever, it is also
true that at the time I was given the book to read, the name of
Dietrich Eckart was also associated with the book, although I do
not recall explicitly why or how. It is possible that the
individual who provided the association assumed I knew who
Eckart was or else was testing me to see if I did know (a common
experience in anthroposophy) and, if so, what my reaction would
be.
I did not learn of the association between anthroposophy and
nazism until well after I came to reject anthroposophy (which I
did solely on the basis of my own experiences and misgivings
based thereon). Now that I know, and with that hindsight, quite
a number of things I experienced in anthroposophical circles
have taken on a relevance that they did not have before -- for
example the name of Dietrich Eckart.
On a different but related point, I cannot now find where I
posted something to the effect that I have a certain amount of
respect for Joseph Beuys as an artist: I wish to make it clear
that that respect extends solely to his obvious intelligence and
talent and nothing more. I do not share his beliefs in
anthroposophy, and I do not know enough about him or his life to
have any other opinions about him.
Luke
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2545.3 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Stereotypes and Anthroposophy
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:21:36 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009120347.UAA23886 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009120347.UAA23886 lists1.best.com)
A few of the quotations in the collection by AKdH are in our
database, but most are not. It would be very interesting to get a
good English translation of this whole page.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2545.4 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re:
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:52:53 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009120259.TAA27011 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009120259.TAA27011 lists1.best.com)
9/11/00, Lucky Miller wrote:
)"For one of the few reports on Waldorf schooling by an "outsider", see a
)dissertation completed by Janet Howard at the State University of New York at
)Albany in the late 1980s. Should be available through Disseration Abstracts.
)Sorry i don't have title. Dick Allington, AERA Division L: Politics
)and Policy in Education"
)
)Dan: were you aware of this?
No, I'd like to see it.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2545.5 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Admin: changing list to egroups Oct. 1
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:19:47 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009111833.LAA18836 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009111833.LAA18836 lists1.best.com)
At 2:32 PM -0400 9/11/00, Lisa Ercolano wrote:
)You're talking about egroups, right? I think there is, Dan. Go to the
)settings feature, and there are various boxes that say "edit" near the
)settings you have put in. There should be one where you can at least shorten
)the list name to initials. I am not sure if you can turn them off
)altogether. Let me know if this works.
Yes, there is a field for editing the tag in the subject line. And
they offer a no-advertising version for only $5/month! Any other
reservations about egroups?
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2545.6 ---------------
From: "Heather Duke" (profoundia olywa.net)
Subject: Joan Almon in Wired magazine online
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 09:21:07 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
References: (200009122137.OAA00398 lists1.best.com)
Hi there,
Have been busy and haven't posted in awhile- but thought you folks might be interested in this article in Wired magazine online. It's from the AP wire yesterday, Sept. 12.
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,38727,00.html
It mentions Joan Almon as a kindergarten teacher, but nowhere is Waldorf ed mentioned in the whole article.
Best wishes,
Heather Duke
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2545.7 ---------------
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: EMail from list user - waldorf-critics
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:27:37 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
) :From steffi.sannemann-damstrom kolumbus.fi Sun Sep
) 10
)
) )I am a religious-teacher, wanted to become a nun
) before I met my great =
) )love. Put my both daughters into the
) Steiner-school, as it is the most =
) )christian school I could find in Finland.
)
) )I judge according to the Words of Christ! No human
) can alter the bible: =
Then how did it get published in English? It was not
originally written in that language; my understanding
from completing several courses on religion is that
the Bible was written in at least two languages, one
of them being Sanskrit.
Deborah
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2545 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2546 --------------
001 - Deborah Kelly (deborah_ke - Re: anthroposophical thoughts
002 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Joan Almon in Wired magazine online
003 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: P.R. Koenig
004 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Stereotypes: Anthroposophy and Racism
005 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: anthroposophical thoughts
006 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Study: Computers Don't Help Kids
007 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: P.R. Koenig
008 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Study: Computers Don't Help Kids
009 - "Lisa DeNike Ercolano" (m - Re: Study: Computers Don't Help Kids
010 - "truth matters" (truthmat - Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2546.1 ---------------
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: anthroposophical thoughts
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com) wrote:
)
) --- Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com) wrote:
) ) Does this mean that the most evil person who ever
) ) lived, can be not so bad, or that those who follow
) ) him/her can be not so bad, no matter how their
) evil
) ) manifests because it is simply and error? Were
) ) leaders of the Khmer Rouge(sp?) simply making
) errors?
) ) What then of those who didn't make errors that
) ) resulted in slaughter or the justification of
) ) slaughter (ie. Steiner's philosophy)?
) ) (snip)
)
) It gets worse than that: errors and evil are
) actually good (not
) my belief) because they teach us necessary spiritual
) lessons and
) prevent us from entering into spiritual realms for
) which we are
) unsuited (the doppelganger as guardian of the
) threshold into the
) spiritual world, preventing us from entering into it
) unless and
) until we are "worthy). Errors and evil create pain,
) and pain is
) "the great teacher" in anthroposophy.
I just read "In the Name of Salome" by Julia Alvarez
and there is a simple quote from that book that I have
pasted to my computer, "Every period has its own evil,
but a human being can always be good." Just whose
pain is teaching whom and what? Are those who are
doing the evil the ones in pain? If they are not,
then it is not just their behavior that is evil.
Deborah
)
) __________________________________________________
) Do You Yahoo!?
) Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from
) anywhere!
) http://mail.yahoo.com/
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2546.2 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Joan Almon in Wired magazine online
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:30:48 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Heather Duke (profoundia olywa.net) wrote:
) Hi there,
)
) Have been busy and haven't posted in awhile- but thought you
) folks might be interested in this article in Wired magazine
) online. It's from the AP wire yesterday, Sept. 12.
)
) http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,38727,00.html
)
) It mentions Joan Almon as a kindergarten teacher, but nowhere
) is Waldorf ed mentioned in the whole article.
)
) Best wishes,
) Heather Duke
)
Thanks for the link. It is totally typical of the
anthroposophical movement today to disguise itself as something
other than it is: occultist, anti-democratic, coercive,
invasive, psychologically dysfunctional (to put it charitably),
authoritarian, elitist, hierarchical, agenda-driven, secretive,
dissimulating...well, why go on with the complete list, it would
take a couple of lifetimes to complete. ;-)
I followed the link in the Wired article to The Alliance for
Childhood, and yes, indeed, it is heavily populated by
anthropops*. Some are obvious (the various Steiner thisses and
Waldorf thats), but others are not so obvious -- such as Gerald
Karnow, of the Fellowship Community in Spring Valley, NY, which
is an Anthropop "commune", for want of a better word, located in
the Anthropop complex that includes Sunbridge College, the
Spring Valley School of Eurythmy, and Green Meadow [?do I have
the right name, Dan?] Waldorf School. Also, the name Deborah
Meier rings a bell: can't quite place the anthropop connection,
could be RSI. And of course, dear old Douglas Sloan [herein
billed as the "Director, Center for the Study of the Spiritual
Foundations of Education, Columbia University". Can you even
believe it??? "Center for the Study of the Spiritual Foundations
of Education"!! I wonder how they conduct their research ....
better yet, what kind of evidence do they provide to convince
the University's Regents -- I think they are governed by a Board
of Regents -- that this is valid research that deserves the
time, money and good name of Columbia University??] Another good
question is: who is providing the funding for this stuff??
Here is more disturbing evidence of the success with which
anthroposophy has been duping the academic community and
parasitically deriving power and influence from the same -- like
the mistletoe which anthropops so revere. Of course, it has been
their strategy all along, as elitists, to capture the upper
echelons of society and utilize that power as leverage to force
their agenda and beliefs on the less powerful beneath them in
order to transform society to conform to their quite distorted
vision.
I consider the possiblity as real that some of the reason for
this is that heretofor puny and "unsexy" academic departments
and areas of interest (such as theology, sociology and
education) have suddenly acquired rock star status in taking up
the "religious freedom" banner, thereby benefitting their
departments and careers by making them better able to attract
funding and students, not to mention public elan and clout. I
mean, really, what kind of a demand for the skills and knowledge
of sociologists are there in a society which no longer cares
about itself as a society and whose government has pretty much
gotten out of the business of social stewardship, not to mention
social welfare, to boot???
*the sky blue background that came up as it was loading was a
dead giveaway; likewise the Takoma Park location, which is
probably Joan Almon's house, particularly as she is the
coordinator (which means she's doing the actual work; forget
Marilyn Benoit -- she's probably just the titular head to give
them a non-anthropop look): the whole entity is obviously an
anthroposophical initiative into which some useful and
influential non-anthropops have been lured. As is typical of
anthropops, they have used the hook of a commonly shared concern
(the influence of tv and computers on children's minds, which I
think is somewhat valid although not to the extreme extent to
which anthropops go; and furthermore with the trend of the past
10 years or so to make computers fun, creative, interactive, and
in service to the needs and imaginations of everyday people,
that concern is losing ground at lightening speed) to gain
support for them in toto despite the fact that their supporters
often don't know one blasted thing about them except their
carfully groomed public image.
It is very disturbing to see how little Americans have learned
about the pitfalls of being seduced by image and not delving
beneath the surface to see what lies inside.
Lesson: in order to understand the book, you have to do more
than admire the cover art; you have to look inside and read it.
Even better is to go one step further, and subject its contents
to open, critical review and debate.
Luke
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2546.3 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: P.R. Koenig
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:21:51 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Detlef Hardrop wrote:
(snip)
) ) ) Dear Cybercitizens
) ) )
) ) ) data on me can be found at
) ) ) http://home.sunrise.ch/~prkoenig/light.htm
) ) )
) ) ) I am neither pro or contra Anthroposophy: it's part of my
) ) ) research on the OTO.
) ) )
) ) ) Sincerely
) ) )
) ) ) P.R. Koenig
) ) ) http://www.cyberlink.ch/~koenig
in response to which Luke wrote:
) and even more data can be found at
) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7069/koenig.html
) verrrrrrry interrrrrestingk!
Luke now has a question for Dan as moderator and the list
members as a whole:
(1) because website addresses are so ephemeral, it seems a good
idea to copy and paste the relevant bits (perhaps all) of the
page to which one is referring readers in order to preserve
their content for the future and indeed to ensure that there is
something left for the list members to read after the post has
been made. What say you?
(2) However, in the case of the above-referenced url about Peter
R. Koenig, there are some bits therein which, although relevant
to the character, professionalism, motives, psychology and
reliability of Herr Koenig and his "research", are revolting and
even prurient. *If* it is agreed that the practice proposed in
(1) above is acceptable, how would the moderator and listmembers
weigh in on including potentially offensive material so long as
it is relevant and not gratuitous or detrimental to the list
and/or its purpose, and does not become a frequent habit.
Obviously, we don't want the list to become a dumping ground for
nasty garbage.
While I prefer serious, wholesome, etc. sources, one cannot
ignore relevant information* that reveals unwholesomeness which
is unexpectedly discovered when one delves below the surface. It
is a judgment call, but one has an obligation to reveal relevant
information, however distasteful (and no, I did not support Ken
Starr's plethora of revolting details and mediaization [is this
a word or did I just invent one? or misspell it?] of the Monica
Lewinsky matter: I think he should have provided what was
necessary to make a solid case to the investigating committee
and then shut up).
In the immediate case, I rather think that "Kelly"'s page on
Peter Koenig would have long bit the dust if Peter Koenig could
prove that it was false and therefor slanderous. Regardless of
the wildly inaccurate claims of some anthropops, it is *not*
possible to "say anything on the web" and get away with it.
On that note, the web is a legitimate and serious source of
information, even amoung academic circles, and in fact
conventions about citing web sources have been in place for
years, such as the conventions described at
http://www.bedfordstmartins.com/online/citex.html ,
http://www.apa.org/journals/webref.html , and
http://www.mla.org/ (click on link "MLA Style" and then on
"Documenting Sources From The World Wide Web").
Just wondering,
Luke
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2546.4 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Stereotypes: Anthroposophy and Racism
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:57:33 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
The following is the translation provided by Altavista/Babel
Fish/Systran of the webpage at
http://www.bnr.de/archiv98/BNR8_98/BNR8_98_11.htm
The title of the article by Herbert Raetz is more intelligible
as "Steiner Youth and Racism".
"BNR" is the acronym for "Blick Nach Rechts", a news service
providing information on right-wing extremism in order to combat
it by keeping the public informed.
Ignatz Bubis (highly respected leader of the Jewish community in
Germany) is quoted as endorsing this online news service as
follows:
" Even one in this time, where appearances in the German Federal
Armed Forces come again and again to the daylight and where that
right-wing extremists parties undertake large efforts to spread
their effect in the new Lands of the Federal Republic is it
becomes recognizable important that there is your [BNR] page.
They make with your referring to right-wing extremist activities
an important contribution for clearing-up over the Untaten of
right-wing extremists and uncover background, who take place in
these sets. --Ignatz Bubis, president of the Central Council of
the Jews in Germany"
Luke
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
BNR 8/98, P. 11
Stone-he-younger and the racingism
Of Herbert Raetz
The Netherlands Rudolf Steiner trailers want to argue -
vorgeblich - critically with Rassismusvorwuerfen. Which is to be
understood by it, at will one defines.
The message that the Netherlands Anthroposophi society argues
critically with racistic passages in denTexten Rudolf Steiners
and wants to let 62 passages in the text from 89.000 pages of
the total expenditure appear in the future only commentated, is
correct hopeful. But how the reality looks? The
anthroposophische magazine info. 3 NR. 3/Maerz 1998 notes in
addition: " In the Rudolf Steiner total expenditure no racial
theory comes forwards (...) into chapter 5 (the report submitted
recently by the society; Anm.d.Verf.) it is expressly stated
that the term ' root race ' has, how Steiner used these as
suggestion of one development epoch of mankind another meaning
than the term ' race ', which in the usual linguistic usage is
used. The term ' root race ' has completely different meaning
than the definition, which is given to the term ' Rasse`in
article 90quater penal code ".
The moreover the commission, that should examine Steiners
Rassismusvorstellungen, assigned by the Anthroposophen experts
from own stocks, communicates that she understands by "
racingism " expressions, which " are done to insult persons and
groups by the intention due to their race or disadvantage ".
This is in contradiction for the definition of discrimination by
the highest Court of Justice of the Netherlands: " It (...) is
like that that the answer of the question, whether an expression
for a group of humans is ' insulting ' due to the race (...), of
which type of the expression is dependent, and not from the
intentions of that, which publishes the expressions. "
How disputed the appraisal of the commission is actual, becomes
still clear by the following passage in the text " specified "
as harmless expression: " With the old Atlantiern felt really
still member a race of the deep antipathy against member of
another race. The common blood caused the zusammengehoerigkeit,
the love. It applied to immoral to marry a member of another
trunk. "
Which is to be sold there as harmless, the unique refutation is
not, in the factory Steiners is contained racial theory. And
likewise Steiners version of the theosophischen root racial
theory is exposed as blood teachings. Not the strange
Rassismusverstaendnis of the Anthroposophi society, but valid
right, which says here clearly, is decisive that not the
intention, but the effect is to be considered. Beyond that
probably is, therefore the note to the law position, for the
Anthroposophen
fewer the question, whether racistic pieces of disalignment were
expressed, than rather fears for on expectation, how one can
work against an expected condemnation. What otherwise is the
note to the punishability of an action, if it concerns
nevertheless allegedly clarifying the philosophical question to
racistic contents?
Accordingly Anthroposophen deal everywhere with their critics. A
beautiful example supplied now the anthroposophische historian
Amnon Reuveni in an interview with " " the daily paper on 9
April. He accuses the Kritikerin Julia Iwersen - and this is the
anthroposophische standard argumentation - a quotation Steiners
from the connection to have torn, in order to be able to put
underneath him so anti-Semitic expressions. Reuveni says
applicable that Steiners condemnation of the Zionismus is meant,
what it then in that its opinion after complete quotation
occupied. Who does not know the emergence " of the book
Ententefreimauerei and " world war of the Anthroposophen and
Madaznan trailer Karl Heise and also the further anti-Semitic
remarks Steiners does not go, here all too to the standard
excuse on the glue.
It remains requiring to the Anthroposophi society that the
argument with its racistic tendencies is led finally once more
concretely and more realistically, as e.g. again and again the
experienced dissociation from authors, who continue to publish
then industriously in anthroposophischen publishing houses. As
long as however nichtanthroposophische " underdeveloped humans "
are down treated in such a manner by anthroposophischen heights
and occupied with the verdict of the Nichtverstehens, such
clarifying " are " simple the argument capable, but nevertheless
an evil which can be taken not of very seriously.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2546.5 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: anthroposophical thoughts
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:54:11 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com) wrote:
) "Every period has its own evil,
) but a human being can always be good."
To which Luke responds as follows:
Thank you, Deborah, for this wonderful quote.
It addresses superbly the issue of the trivialization of evil by
those whose excuse is "everyone else was doing it" or "it was
the times". I have heard this excuse offered for collusion and
collaboration with the Nazis, among other things. While it is
true that it takes extraordinary courage to stay to the right
path in such times, it is also true that evil can only dominate
when good people fail to act or to oppose it. One can perhaps
have compassion and understanding for those whose courage failed
them, depending on the circumstances, but not for the excuse
which tries to deny the reality.
) Just whose
) pain is teaching whom and what? Are those who are
) doing the evil the ones in pain? If they are not,
) then it is not just their behavior that is evil.
I completely agree.
Luke
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2546.6 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Study: Computers Don't Help Kids
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:05:18 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Editors, Wired Online
Dear Editors:
Regarding "Computers Don't Help Kids" (AP 9/12/00,
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,38727,00.html), you
should know who's behind the "study" reported by "Alliance for
Childhood." Alliance for Childhood describes itself as "an
international partnership of educators, doctors, and psychologists,"
but they don't reveal that they are a front for Anthroposophy, the
cult-like religious sect responsible for Waldorf schools.
Anthroposophists don't do research, except in "the spiritual world."
The issues raised are legitimate, but in this case a deceptive cult
is using them to cultivate their public image.
Sincerely, Dan Dugan
Secretary, PLANS, Inc.
--
_________________________________________________________________________
People for Legal and Nonsectarian Schools http://www.waldorfcritics.org
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2546.7 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: P.R. Koenig
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:25:28 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009132251.PAA16572 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009132251.PAA16572 lists1.best.com)
9/13/00, Lucky Miller wrote:
)(1) because website addresses are so ephemeral, it seems a good
)idea to copy and paste the relevant bits (perhaps all) of the
)page to which one is referring readers in order to preserve
)their content for the future and indeed to ensure that there is
)something left for the list members to read after the post has
)been made. What say you?
Yes, this list is a "journal of record" of commentary about Waldorf
and Anthroposophy, and it's helpful to have the relevant texts,
emphasis on relevant. People can go to the source for the context,
however. See policy on fair use below.
)(2) However, in the case of the above-referenced url about Peter
)R. Koenig, there are some bits therein which, although relevant
)to the character, professionalism, motives, psychology and
)reliability of Herr Koenig and his "research", are revolting and
)even prurient. *If* it is agreed that the practice proposed in
)(1) above is acceptable, how would the moderator and listmembers
)weigh in on including potentially offensive material so long as
)it is relevant and not gratuitous or detrimental to the list
)and/or its purpose, and does not become a frequent habit.
)Obviously, we don't want the list to become a dumping ground for
)nasty garbage.
I'm not clear what kind of "offensive" you're talking about. Could
you give us an example?
)While I prefer serious, wholesome, etc. sources, one cannot
)ignore relevant information* that reveals unwholesomeness which
)is unexpectedly discovered when one delves below the surface. It
)is a judgment call, but one has an obligation to reveal relevant
)information, however distasteful...
(snip)
)In the immediate case, I rather think that "Kelly"'s page on
)Peter Koenig would have long bit the dust if Peter Koenig could
)prove that it was false and therefor slanderous. Regardless of
)the wildly inaccurate claims of some anthropops, it is *not*
)possible to "say anything on the web" and get away with it.
I'm under the impression that slander/libel laws in Europe are
tougher than in the U.S.A. Here anything said clearly as an opinion
is legitimate; statements of fact are defensible if they are true. Of
course, a libel suit can be an effective means of harassing someone.
Even if it is not expected to be upheld, the defense can be costly.
This list has a "fair use" policy for quoting copyrighted material,
negotiated with our ISP after Anthropops complained about our quoting
from their mailing lists. You may quote up to 500 words, as long as
there is significant commentary added.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2546.8 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Study: Computers Don't Help Kids
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 12:40:04 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
) Editors, Wired Online
)
) Dear Editors:
)
) Regarding "Computers Don't Help Kids" (AP 9/12/00,
) http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,38727,00.html),
) you
) should know who's behind the "study" reported by "Alliance for
)
) Childhood." Alliance for Childhood describes itself as "an
) international partnership of educators, doctors, and
) psychologists,"
) but they don't reveal that they are a front for Anthroposophy,
) the
) cult-like religious sect responsible for Waldorf schools.
) Anthroposophists don't do research, except in "the spiritual
) world."
) The issues raised are legitimate, but in this case a deceptive
) cult
) is using them to cultivate their public image.
)
) Sincerely, Dan Dugan
) Secretary, PLANS, Inc.
) --
)
Thanks,Dan -- you saved me the trouble.
BUt then again, maybe I'll add my voice too.
Luke
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2546.9 ---------------
From: "Lisa DeNike Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Study: Computers Don't Help Kids
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 16:54:09 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Please do. I am at work on a note of my own right now. I think we need to
add as many voices as possible, so that they will take notice.
Lisa
----------
)From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)Subject: Re: Study: Computers Don't Help Kids
)Date: Thu, Sep 14, 2000, 3:40 PM
)
)
) --- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
)) Editors, Wired Online
))
)) Dear Editors:
))
)) Regarding "Computers Don't Help Kids" (AP 9/12/00,
)) http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,38727,00.html),
)) you
)) should know who's behind the "study" reported by "Alliance for
))
)) Childhood." Alliance for Childhood describes itself as "an
)) international partnership of educators, doctors, and
)) psychologists,"
)) but they don't reveal that they are a front for Anthroposophy,
)) the
)) cult-like religious sect responsible for Waldorf schools.
)) Anthroposophists don't do research, except in "the spiritual
)) world."
)) The issues raised are legitimate, but in this case a deceptive
)) cult
)) is using them to cultivate their public image.
))
)) Sincerely, Dan Dugan
)) Secretary, PLANS, Inc.
)) --
))
)
)
) Thanks,Dan -- you saved me the trouble.
)
) BUt then again, maybe I'll add my voice too.
) Luke
)
)
) __________________________________________________
) Do You Yahoo!?
) Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
) http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2546.10 ---------------
From: "truth matters" (truthmatters unbounded.com)
Subject: Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 18:02:51 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
) --- Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com) wrote:
) ) Excerpt from the 1995 Report of the Parliamentary
) ) Commission on Cults at
) ) http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/2/cenq/rap-enq/r2468.htm#page12
) (snip)
) This report also has several mentions about Anthroposophy: I
) have been taking my time translating these over the past months
) bit by bit. I've finally finished everything but the material in
) the Appendix, which is mostly analysis of survey data, etc., and
) which I will have to get to later.
http://www.waldorf.net/guyard_e.htm :
Jacques Guyard convicted of libel
for calling the anthroposophical movement a sect
Le Monde , Thursday March 23, 2000
(the original French version of the article can be found at:
http://www.lemonde.fr/article/0,2320,47568,00.html)
The parliamentary commission's work cannot be considered
a serious investigation.
Because he called the anthroposophical movement a sect on France 2
[of the national television network], the President of the
parliamentary commission to investigate cults, Jacques Guyard,
was convicted of libel and fined 20 000 French francs
plus 90 000 French francs in punitive damages on Tuesday, March 21st.
The Paris Court decided that M. Guyard was not able to justify his
accusations based on a serious inquiry.
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2546 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2547 --------------
001 - iris springflower (irissp - Local Waldorf people go to The Ranbow Family Gathering
002 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - AP fooled by cult front
003 - Peter Zegers (saverio dds - Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
004 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
005 - "truth matters" (truthmat - Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler II
006 - "truth matters" (truthmat - Helping Hitler: Nazi support from the U.S.
007 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Admin: web counter turns over 47,000
008 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Re: Helping Hitler: Nazi support from the U.S.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2547.1 ---------------
From: iris springflower (irisspringflower yahoo.com)
Subject: Local Waldorf people go to The Ranbow Family Gathering
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 18:35:30 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi. There is a group of people called the Rainbow
Family who hold gatherings on public lands. Many of
these people have been found to be abusive to
vulnerable, unsuspecting kids and adults. Lots of
stealing, illegal drug use, PHONY New Age medical
quackery under the guise of "Alternative Healing"
(including sex and emotional abuse of patients), and
other such actions happen at the RF's so-called "Peace
& Healing gatherings. It is a New Age Lifestyle
group/movement which came out of the 1960's/70's
hippie movement. Anyway, it attracts the better-known
cult groups to the gatherings, including
Anthroposophy, Hare Krishna, etc., plus many
small-time groups which are cult-like. These groups
go to the host RF's gatherings to recruit new members.
This past June/July many of the Waldorf people from my
area went to the RF's National Gathering in Montana.
They had told people previously that they were "Not
Rainbow Family" because The RF had a reputation of
going into areas and stealing, shoplifting, spreading
illegal drugs, and just plain using the local people
in the areas they visit. That happened in the early
1990's here, so the Waldorf people had CLAIMED to not
be connected with the Rainbow Family. BUT this year a
large group of them went to Montana for The RF
gathering. Is there a connection between Anthroposophy
and other cults? That's my question.
Thanks, Iris S.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2547.2 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: AP fooled by cult front
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 19:10:54 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
The Editors, Associated Press
Re: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,38727,00.html
credited to Associated Press
Dear Editors:
Regarding "Computers Don't Help Kids" (AP 9/12/00), your reporter was
taken in by a slick cult front. You should know who's behind the
"study" reported by Alliance for Childhood.
Alliance for Childhood describes itself as "an international
partnership of educators, doctors, and psychologists," but they don't
reveal that they are a front for Anthroposophy, the cult-like
religious sect responsible for Waldorf schools. Anthroposophists
don't do research, except in "the spiritual world." The issues they
have raised are legitimate, but in this case a deceptive cult is
using them to cultivate their public image.
For public consumption, Anthroposophists say that children shouldn't
use computers until they are old enough to understand how they work.
In their internal publications, however, computers are characterized
as incarnations of Ahriman, an evil spirit adopted from
Zoroastrianism.
"The computer is special because of its relation to the spiritual
being here called "Ahriman."...[T]he world has been coming
increasingly under the sway of this being Ahriman in the course of
the last two millenia, with an ever increasing pace in recent
centuries, and that the computer represents the vanguard of this
development." [Black, David B. The Computer and the Incarnation of
Ahriman. Spring Valley, NY: St. George Publications, 1981, pp. 2-3]
This story is even more interesting when you get behind the facade.
Sincerely, Dan Dugan
Secretary, PLANS, Inc.
_________________________________________________________________________
People for Legal and Nonsectarian Schools http://www.waldorfcritics.org
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2547.3 ---------------
From: Peter Zegers (saverio dds.nl)
Subject: Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 16:27:41 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
References: (200009142155.OAA21301 lists1.best.com)
Dear ??,
truth matters wrote:
) The parliamentary commission's work cannot be considered
) a serious investigation.
Why not? Could you give us any arguments for this bold statement?
Best regards,
Peter Zegers
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2547.4 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 09:28:55 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
References: (200009142155.OAA21301 lists1.best.com)
(200009151421.HAA02564 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009151421.HAA02564 lists1.best.com)
At 4:27 PM +0200 9/15/00, Peter Zegers wrote:
)Dear ??,
)
)truth matters wrote:
)
)) The parliamentary commission's work cannot be considered
)) a serious investigation.
)
)Why not? Could you give us any arguments for this bold statement?
I believe that was what the judge said. Her opinion was that the
confidential testimony of ex-parents was not sufficient without being
challenged in a public hearing where both sides were represented.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2547.5 ---------------
From: "truth matters" (truthmatters unbounded.com)
Subject: Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler II
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 13:50:25 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
http://www.sightings.com/politics6/SKULL.htm
AH - Did any of Hitler's economic policies threaten the interests of
the international bankers, and if so did that play a role in his
downfall?
AS (Anthony Sutton):
- Hitler's economic policies were OK'd by the bankers right
through the war...ITT, Chase, Texaco and others were operating in
Nazi-held France as late as 1945. In fact Chase in Paris was trying
to get Nazi accounts as late as 1944. When we got to Germany in
May 1945, I remember seeing a (bombed-out) Woolworth store in
Hamburg and thinking, "What's Woolworth doing in Nazi Germany?"
While we were bombed and shelled it was "business as usual" for Big
Business. Try the Alien Custodian Papers. See my BEST ENEMY
MONEY CAN BUY for more information. Union Banking is very
important. I made a documentary for Dutch National TV some years
ago. It got all the way through the production process to the Dutch
TV Guide...at the last minute it was pulled and another film
substituted. This documentary has proof of Bush financing Hitler--
documents. Maybe my Dutch friends will still get it viewed, but the
apparatus reaches into Holland.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2547.6 ---------------
From: "truth matters" (truthmatters unbounded.com)
Subject: Helping Hitler: Nazi support from the U.S.
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 13:55:25 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
http://www.rat.pogled.net/doc/helphitler.htm
Helping Hitler: Nazi support from the U.S.
While most Americans were appalled by the Nazis and the rearming of
Germany in the 1930s, some of America's most powerful corporations were
more concerned about making a buck from their German investments. Here
are a few examples of how U.S. industrialists supported Adolph Hitler
and Nazi Germany.
General Motors:
- According to Charles Higham in his book Trading With The Enemy, GM
representatives met secretly with Baron Manfred von Killinger, Nazi
Germany's West Coast chief of espionage, and Baron von Tippleskirsch,
the Nazi consul general and Gestapo leader, in Boston on November 23,
1937. The group "signed a joint agreement showing total commitment to
the Nazi cause for the indefinite future," and proclaimed that "in view
of Roosevelt's attitude toward Germany, every effort must be made to
remove him by defeat at the next election. Jewish influence in the
political, cultural, and public life in America must be stamped out.
Press and radio must be subsidized to smear the administration," and a
fhrer, perhaps Sen. Burton Wheeler of Montana, should be in the White
House. Although the group tried to keep the agreement secret,
Representative John M. Coffee of Washington found out about it and had
the entire text of the agreement printed in the Congressional Record in
August 1942.
HENRY FORD, founder of the Ford Motor Company:
- The Nazi connection: Ford, an outspoken anti-Semite, was a big donor
to the Nazi party.
- Helping Hitler: Ford allegedly bankrolled Hitler in the early 1920s,
at a time when the party had few other sources of income. In fact, the
Party might have perished without Ford's sponsorship. Hitler admired
Ford enormously. In 1922, The New York Times reported, "The wall beside
his desk in Hitler's private office is decorated with a large picture of
Henry Ford. In the antechamber there is a large table covered with
books, nearly all of which are translations of books written and
published by Henry Ford." (Hitler actually borrowed passages from Ford's
book The International Jew to use in Mein Kampf). The same year, the
German newspaper Berliner Tageblatt, a Hitler foe, called on the
American ambassador to investigate Ford's funding of Hitler, but nothing
was ever done. Ford never denied that he had bankrolled the fhrer. In
fact, Hitler presented Nazi Germany's highest decoration for foreigners,
the Grand Cross of the German Eagle, to Ford.
THE CURTISS-WRIGHT AVIATION COMPANY ...
STANDARD OIL ...
INTERNATIONAL TELEPHONE AND TELEGRAPH ...
CHASE NATIONAL BANK (later Chase Manhattan Bank) ...
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2547.7 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: web counter turns over 47,000
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:22:05 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
On September 12, 2000, the PLANS web site had registered 46,953 visitors
since August 12, 1996. (Visitors, not hits, repeats on the same day are not
counted.) It turned over 47,000 on September 14.
We had 1,571 visitors in the last 30 days, averaging 52 per day. This
is a substantial increase over last month (20%), I imagine it's
because it's back-to-school time.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2547.8 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Re: Helping Hitler: Nazi support from the U.S.
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 18:37:39 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In-Reply-To: (200009151747.KAA23746 lists1.best.com)
This is all very interesting but I guess I am missing the point. What
does this have to do with the curriculum of Waldorf schools and/or the
welfare of our children? I think we should concentrate on how our children
are being harmed now than all these things in the past. If Jewish children
are being harmed in the Waldorf schools, I would like to know how and why.
If children of color are also being harmed in the schools, I would like to
know.
I know that many people supported the Nazis and that Henry Ford was a big
anti-semite. Roald Dahl, the famed children's author, was also supposedly
an anti-semite. Even Rosevelt was not not great when it came to the Jews,
he turned away refugees sending them back to their deaths in Europe. The
British were also pretty bad when it came to saving Jews. They turned Jews
away from Palestine sending many to their death. What is the big deal? As
a Jew, I know that there are millions and millions of anti-semites out
there and this is not going to change anytime soon. Why do you think
Israel has the bomb?
--Rose
At 01:55 PM 9/15/00 -0400, you wrote:
)
)http://www.rat.pogled.net/doc/helphitler.htm
)Helping Hitler: Nazi support from the U.S.
)
)While most Americans were appalled by the Nazis and the rearming of
)Germany in the 1930s, some of America's most powerful corporations were
)more concerned about making a buck from their German investments. Here
)are a few examples of how U.S. industrialists supported Adolph Hitler
)and Nazi Germany.
)
)
)General Motors:
)
)- According to Charles Higham in his book Trading With The Enemy, GM
)representatives met secretly with Baron Manfred von Killinger, Nazi
)Germany's West Coast chief of espionage, and Baron von Tippleskirsch,
)the Nazi consul general and Gestapo leader, in Boston on November 23,
)1937. The group "signed a joint agreement showing total commitment to
)the Nazi cause for the indefinite future," and proclaimed that "in view
)of Roosevelt's attitude toward Germany, every effort must be made to
)remove him by defeat at the next election. Jewish influence in the
)political, cultural, and public life in America must be stamped out.
)Press and radio must be subsidized to smear the administration," and a
)fhrer, perhaps Sen. Burton Wheeler of Montana, should be in the White
)House. Although the group tried to keep the agreement secret,
)Representative John M. Coffee of Washington found out about it and had
)the entire text of the agreement printed in the Congressional Record in
)August 1942.
)
)
)HENRY FORD, founder of the Ford Motor Company:
)
)- The Nazi connection: Ford, an outspoken anti-Semite, was a big donor
)to the Nazi party.
)
)- Helping Hitler: Ford allegedly bankrolled Hitler in the early 1920s,
)at a time when the party had few other sources of income. In fact, the
)Party might have perished without Ford's sponsorship. Hitler admired
)Ford enormously. In 1922, The New York Times reported, "The wall beside
)his desk in Hitler's private office is decorated with a large picture of
)Henry Ford. In the antechamber there is a large table covered with
)books, nearly all of which are translations of books written and
)published by Henry Ford." (Hitler actually borrowed passages from Ford's
)book The International Jew to use in Mein Kampf). The same year, the
)German newspaper Berliner Tageblatt, a Hitler foe, called on the
)American ambassador to investigate Ford's funding of Hitler, but nothing
)was ever done. Ford never denied that he had bankrolled the fhrer. In
)fact, Hitler presented Nazi Germany's highest decoration for foreigners,
)the Grand Cross of the German Eagle, to Ford.
)
)THE CURTISS-WRIGHT AVIATION COMPANY ...
)STANDARD OIL ...
)INTERNATIONAL TELEPHONE AND TELEGRAPH ...
)CHASE NATIONAL BANK (later Chase Manhattan Bank) ...
)
)
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2547 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2548 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Admin: Re: Helping Hitler: Nazi support from the U.S.
002 - Peter Zegers (saverio dds - Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
003 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2548.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: Re: Helping Hitler: Nazi support from the U.S.
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 01:45:58 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009160135.SAA29522 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009160135.SAA29522 lists1.best.com)
At 6:37 PM -0700 9/15/00, Rose Alford wrote:
)This is all very interesting but I guess I am missing the point. What
)does this have to do with the curriculum of Waldorf schools and/or the
)welfare of our children?
Me too. Connect it with Waldorf or Anthroposophy or put a lid on it.
Dan Dugan
Moderator
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2548.2 ---------------
From: Peter Zegers (saverio dds.nl)
Subject: Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 15:32:14 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (200009142155.OAA21301 lists1.best.com)
(200009151421.HAA02564 lists1.best.com) (200009151647.JAA27473 lists1.best.com)
Dear Dan,
The fact that a judge said that both sides should be heard in a public
hearing is a formal objection to the investigation of the French
parliamentary commission. As such it doesn't say anything about the
content of the report. Jacques Guyard, the chairman of the commission,
appealed to a higher court and therefore the case is not ended yet.
Best,
Peter Zegers
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2548.3 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 17:09:11 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009142155.OAA21301 lists1.best.com)
(200009151421.HAA02564 lists1.best.com)
(200009151647.JAA27473 lists1.best.com)
(200009161325.GAA05478 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009161325.GAA05478 lists1.best.com)
Peter Zegers wrote:
)The fact that a judge said that both sides should be heard in a public
)hearing is a formal objection to the investigation of the French
)parliamentary commission. As such it doesn't say anything about the
)content of the report. Jacques Guyard, the chairman of the commission,
)appealed to a higher court and therefore the case is not ended yet.
Does anybody know how to contact Guyard? Shortly after the decision I
found a couple of fax numbers that seemed to relate to him and
invited contact, but there was no response.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2548 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2549 --------------
001 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
002 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
003 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Helping Hitler: Nazi support from the U.S.
004 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
005 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: P.R. Koenig
006 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
007 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - proposed Waldorf charter school
008 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: P.R. Koenig
009 - Peter Zegers (saverio dds - Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
010 - pcbrand juno.com - Need info on Waldorf early education
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2549.1 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 14:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- truth matters (truthmatters unbounded.com) wrote:
(snip)
) Jacques Guyard convicted of libel
) for calling the anthroposophical movement a sect
)
) Le Monde , Thursday March 23, 2000
) (the original French version of the article can be found at:
)
) http://www.lemonde.fr/article/0,2320,47568,00.html)
)
) The parliamentary commission's work cannot be considered
) a serious investigation.
)
) Because he called the anthroposophical movement a sect on
) France 2
) [of the national television network], the President of the
) parliamentary commission to investigate cults, Jacques
) Guyard,
) was convicted of libel and fined 20 000 French francs
) plus 90 000 French francs in punitive damages on Tuesday,
) March 21st.
) The Paris Court decided that M. Guyard was not able to
) justify his
) accusations based on a serious inquiry.
)
To which Luke replies:
Yes, Mr. Matters, we have all heard this about a half dozen
times before from your wooden lips.
The fantatical, automaton-like way in which you reiterate over
and over the one single piece of [worthless] amunition you have
with regard to this *serious* *well documented* report, without
even knowing the contents, reveals a complete lack of
objectivity or interest in knowing the facts. The way you cling
to this single straw is truly pathetic.
If the judge had arrived at the opposite finding, instead of
flailing around waving it like a flag, you would be stomping all
over it claiming the justice system doesn't work, is corrupt, is
useless, blah blah blah.
Anyone who wishes to take the time to read -- obviously not
including yourself -- will be able to see that the judge was
clearly biased, out of her head with regard to the lack of
seriousness, and not professional in her conduct.
Sounds like an anthroposophist.
Luke
__________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2549.2 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 14:29:43 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
) At 4:27 PM +0200 9/15/00, Peter Zegers wrote:
) )Dear ??,
) )
) )truth matters wrote:
) )
) )) The parliamentary commission's work cannot be considered
) )) a serious investigation.
) )
) )Why not? Could you give us any arguments for this bold
) statement?
)
) I believe that was what the judge said. Her opinion was that
) the
) confidential testimony of ex-parents was not sufficient
) without being
) challenged in a public hearing where both sides were
) represented.
)
) -Dan Dugan
To Which Luke replies:
You are incorrect, Dan.
The reason for the use of affidavits instead of public testimony
(which is what was at issue) was due to the concern of the
witnesses for their safety and security. Because they feared
serious intimidation and harrassment, the witnesses, who were
former victims, were only willing to provide their testimony in
affidavit form -- a time honored and perfectly respectable and
acceptable means of testifying. Such witnesses are sworn in and
are under oath just as they would be if physically present in
the court room and are equally subject to being charged with
perjury if their testimony is false.
There is no reason to require their physical presence. If it is
believed that their testimony is false or misleading, there are
legal remedies for that and other avenues open to these
well-heeled cults as well. To my knowledge, no such challenges
or remedies have been sought. The only legal action of which I
am aware is this spurious attempt to intimidate the legislature
and derail impending legislation.
The danger to the witnesses was physical as well as
psychological, financial, social and emotional. It took a lot of
courage for them to testify even this way.
These cults, including anthroposophy, have a track record of
intimidating and attempting to defame those who will not play
their game and seek to expose them. Forcing vulnerable victims
or former victims into the open to testify is analagous to
flushing pheasants out of the brush so you can kill them. Few
people are either in such a position (i.e., without others who
rely upon them such as children, etc.) or willing to undergo the
lifelong misery that is likely to be the consequence.
As was noted in the Le Monde article which was the subject of a
much earlier post, few victims have the courage to face such
intimidating and unscrupulous entities. Most just want to leave
the trauma and pain of the past behind them and start a fresh
new life: not all are allowed to do so, however.
Luke
__________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2549.3 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Helping Hitler: Nazi support from the U.S.
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 14:32:49 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- truth matters (truthmatters unbounded.com) wrote:
)
) http://www.rat.pogled.net/doc/helphitler.htm
) Helping Hitler: Nazi support from the U.S.
)
) While most Americans were appalled by the Nazis and the
) rearming of
) Germany in the 1930s, some of America's most powerful
) corporations were
) more concerned about making a buck from their German
) investments. Here
) are a few examples of how U.S. industrialists supported Adolph
) Hitler
) and Nazi Germany.
This is fairly famous and well publicized information, Mr.
Matters.
What does it have to do with the subject of this list?
Luke
__________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2549.4 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 14:34:59 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Peter Zegers (saverio dds.nl) wrote:
) Dear Dan,
)
) The fact that a judge said that both sides should be heard in
) a public
) hearing is a formal objection to the investigation of the
) French
) parliamentary commission. As such it doesn't say anything
) about the
) content of the report. Jacques Guyard, the chairman of the
) commission,
) appealed to a higher court and therefore the case is not ended
) yet.
)
) Best,
)
) Peter Zegers
)
To which Luke replies:
Will you keep us abreast of this case, Peter? I'm not able to
keep up with European news very well at the moment.
Luke
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2549.5 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: P.R. Koenig
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 15:31:52 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
(snip)
) I'm not clear what kind of "offensive" you're talking about.
) Could
) you give us an example?
To which Luke replies:
The following [WHICH CONTAINS SEXUALLY EXPLICIT, VULGAR
LANGUAGE]:
-------------------------------
from http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7069/koenig.html
cut and pasted on 9/17/00:
"And who in their right mind would wish to be associated with
such a fellow as P.R.Koenig! He attaches to his name all kinds
of titles and degrees, after explaining that he received those
degrees from people he also said had no right to give out such
degrees, making those degrees meaningless, and time and time
again he tried to impress me. He did impress me - most
unfavourably. In one letter he broke into what was supposed to
be a metaphysical tract explaining the secrets of the universe
[I guess], ranting and raving things like
'The Anus is the eye, the eye is Ayin, 16, ATU XVI is the
falling tower = the erect penis: cock and anus are one! Anus =
eye = Seth = Satan = Saturn = Hadit: cock and anus are one!'
Etc., etc.. [28 June 1990 E.V.]
And here is a quaint little gem from a letter dated 23 October
1990 E.V.:
'please explain me why you think you should be a thelemite? re
James Martin: of course if we should meet some day i fuck him
in the ass. i do with every man and woman in my entourance. i
know my duty as xi (which is the same as ix). i really dunnot
understand or know what you have against J.Martin or my
correspondence with him; jalousy?'
"Ugh! I can assure you that I am not suffering from
"jalousy". These two sickos really deserve each other, yet I
take it that they still do not get along too well in their
romance, er, I mean association-by-mail. Martin is in Texas and
Koenig [thank the gods!] is in Switzerland. Aside from being
straight, I found Koenig's letters so disgusting that I felt
like washing my hands after reading them. Not just sexually
perverse, but also intellectually perverse. Ah, but on with this
review...
"The way Koenig sees it, and wouldn't you expect this from
someone who thinks that it is his "duty" to 'bum fuck' everyone
he encounters, just about everyone is suffering from repressed
homosexuality.
(...)"And to clarify something, just in case, while I [Kelly]am
"straight", tending to be sexually conservative most of the time
[how boring], I am by far not a prude and not opposed to natural
homosexuality... I stand behind them [metaphorically speaking!]
100% when it comes to standing up for their rights and choices
in life. "
Luke notes: the quote from above makes me wonder how Mr. Koenig
ever got such good English into his published papers: a
translator???
(snip)
) I'm under the impression that slander/libel laws in Europe are
)
) tougher than in the U.S.A. Here anything said clearly as an
) opinion
) is legitimate;
)statements of fact are defensible if they are
) true.
To which Luke replies:
that is just common sense, I would hope.
So, to say "you're a wh*re" is a statement of fact and therefore
actionable; whereas "I think you're a wh*re" is an opinion and
protected by free speech?
) Of course, a libel suit can be an effective means of harassing
) someone.
just about anything can be perverted and put to use to harrass
someone.
(snip)
) This list has a "fair use" policy for quoting copyrighted
) material,
) negotiated with our ISP after Anthropops complained about our
) quoting
) from their mailing lists.
Why did they do that? Why would they care? Weren't they telling
the truth? I find this puzzling.
Luke
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2549.6 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 15:52:49 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
References: (200009172130.OAA28519 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009172130.OAA28519 lists1.best.com)
At 2:29 PM -0700 9/17/00, Lucky Miller wrote:
)--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
)) At 4:27 PM +0200 9/15/00, Peter Zegers wrote:
)) )Dear ??,
)) )
)) )truth matters wrote:
)) )
)) )) The parliamentary commission's work cannot be considered
)) )) a serious investigation.
)) )
)) )Why not? Could you give us any arguments for this bold
)) statement?
))
)) I believe that was what the judge said. Her opinion was that
)) the
)) confidential testimony of ex-parents was not sufficient
)) without being
)) challenged in a public hearing where both sides were
)) represented.
))
)) -Dan Dugan
)
)To Which Luke replies:
)
)You are incorrect, Dan.
)
)The reason for the use of affidavits instead of public testimony
)(which is what was at issue) was due to the concern of the
)witnesses for their safety and security. Because they feared
)serious intimidation and harrassment, the witnesses, who were
)former victims, were only willing to provide their testimony in
)affidavit form -- a time honored and perfectly respectable and
)acceptable means of testifying. Such witnesses are sworn in and
)are under oath just as they would be if physically present in
)the court room and are equally subject to being charged with
)perjury if their testimony is false.
Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't saying I agreed with it, just
giving my recollection of what the judge's argument was.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2549.7 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: proposed Waldorf charter school
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 17:12:52 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Tom Gascoyne, Editor
Chico News & Review
Chico, California
Dear Mr. Gascoyne,
Devanie Anderson's article about the proposed Blue Oak School (CN&R
July 20, 2000) mentions that charter schools are controversial, but
misses altogether the fact that there has been a controversy boiling
for years about the particular kind of charter school that the
parents propose--"Waldorf."
Waldorf isn't an educational method, it's a spiritual movement.
Waldorf is one of several worldwide fronts for Anthroposophy, a
cult-like religious sect founded by Austrian guru Rudolf Steiner
(1861-1925). The Blue Oak School organizers say that their teachers
will be required to have Waldorf teaching certificates. This means
that teachers at this public school will be required to have trained
at an Anthroposophical religious seminary. That is the only way that
Waldorf certification can be obtained. Required reading for courses
at Rudolf Steiner College, the Northern California training center,
includes Steiner's "Knowledge of the Higher Worlds and Its
Attainment,""Occult Science,""Education of the Child in the Light of
Spiritual Science," and "Manifestations of Karma."
Waldorf programs violate the Establishment Clause of the
Constitution. When Waldorf promoters started moving into public
funding, a broad-based coalition of former Waldorf parents, teachers,
evangelical Christians, Secular Humanists, and other concerned
citizens formed to expose this problem. Our organization, People for
Legal and Nonsectarian Schools, Inc., (PLANS) is suing two Northern
California school districts in federal court for violation of the
Constitution. The trial is scheduled to start March 19, 2001, in
Sacramento.
Parents can't be faulted for wanting all the romantic and attractive
features of Waldorf education, but they should study Anthroposophy
before they put their children in the care of this closed-minded cult
that talks about freedom but demands conformity. The Chico school
board would be wise to avoid opening a school that violates the law
of the land.
More information can be found at PLANS' web site http://www.waldorfcritics.org.
Sincerely,
Dan Dugan
Secretary, PLANS
copy: waldorf-critics
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2549.8 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: P.R. Koenig
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 21:39:29 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009172232.PAA21234 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009172232.PAA21234 lists1.best.com)
At 3:31 PM -0700 9/17/00, Lucky Miller wrote:
)--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
)(snip)
)
)) I'm not clear what kind of "offensive" you're talking about.
)) Could
) ) you give us an example?
Wish I hadn't asked. I don't see any reason to go into this any
further unless you can connect it meaningfully to Waldorf and
Anthroposophy. Anthroposophy has always been uptight about
homosexuality; mostly they just pretend it doesn't exist.
)So, to say "you're a wh*re" is a statement of fact and therefore
)actionable; whereas "I think you're a wh*re" is an opinion and
)protected by free speech?
Something like that.
) ) This list has a "fair use" policy for quoting copyrighted
)) material,
)) negotiated with our ISP after Anthropops complained about our
)) quoting
)) from their mailing lists.
)
)Why did they do that? Why would they care? Weren't they telling
)the truth? I find this puzzling.
It's embarrassing when the statements of naive Dorfs and Anthropops
get exposed to ridicule. So they pretend mailing lists with hundreds
of subscribers are private. In my opinion they are publications, just
like letters in a magazine. The writers own the copyright, but it's
fair use to quote them for discussion.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2549.9 ---------------
From: Peter Zegers (saverio dds.nl)
Subject: Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:08:36 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (200009172136.OAA00706 lists1.best.com)
Hi Luke,
Lucky Miller wrote:
) Will you keep us abreast of this case, Peter? I'm not able to
) keep up with European news very well at the moment.
I will do my best.
Best,
Peter Zegers
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2549.10 ---------------
From: pcbrand juno.com
Subject: Need info on Waldorf early education
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:28:27 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I am not familiar with the Waldorf philosphy of ed but was intrigued by
their parent child classes only. Could someone fill me in on what the
concerns/criticisms of this method of ed are? Also if anyone has
experience with the Chicago schools please email me.
Thanks,
Christine
________________________________________________________________
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--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2549 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2550 --------------
001 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
002 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: P.R. Koenig
003 - "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik - Re: Need info on Waldorf early education
004 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Need info on Waldorf early education
005 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: P.R. Koenig
006 - "David Cann" (canndw netz - Re: Need info on Waldorf early education
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2550.1 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:13:08 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
) At 2:29 PM -0700 9/17/00, Lucky Miller wrote:
) )--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
) )) At 4:27 PM +0200 9/15/00, Peter Zegers wrote:
) )) )Dear ??,
) )) )
) )) )truth matters wrote:
) )) )
) )) )) The parliamentary commission's work cannot be
) considered
) )) )) a serious investigation.
) )) )
) )) )Why not? Could you give us any arguments for this bold
) )) statement?
) ))
) )) I believe that was what the judge said. Her opinion was
) that
) )) the
) )) confidential testimony of ex-parents was not sufficient
) )) without being
) )) challenged in a public hearing where both sides were
) )) represented.
) ))
) )) -Dan Dugan
) )
) )To Which Luke replies:
) )
) )You are incorrect, Dan.
) )
) )The reason for the use of affidavits instead of public
) testimony
) )(which is what was at issue) was due to the concern of the
) )witnesses for their safety and security. Because they feared
) )serious intimidation and harrassment, the witnesses, who were
) )former victims, were only willing to provide their testimony
) in
) )affidavit form -- a time honored and perfectly respectable
) and
) )acceptable means of testifying. Such witnesses are sworn in
) and
) )are under oath just as they would be if physically present in
) )the court room and are equally subject to being charged with
) )perjury if their testimony is false.
)
) Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't saying I agreed with
) it, just
) giving my recollection of what the judge's argument was.
)
) -Dan Dugan
To which Luke replies:
Quite OK, my pleasure.
Luke
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2550.2 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: P.R. Koenig
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:04:32 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
) At 3:31 PM -0700 9/17/00, Lucky Miller wrote:
) )--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
) )(snip)
) )
) )) I'm not clear what kind of "offensive" you're talking
) about.
) )) Could
) ) ) you give us an example?
)
) Wish I hadn't asked. I don't see any reason to go into this
) any
) further unless you can connect it meaningfully to Waldorf and
) Anthroposophy. Anthroposophy has always been uptight about
) homosexuality; mostly they just pretend it doesn't exist.
To which Luke replies:
I don't want to go into it any further, either. However, I think
it is meaningful in terms of anthroposophy since it addresses
the character, mental state[*] (and therefor reliability) and
alleged fraudulant practices of an individual who is the
frequently cited (and as far as I know uniquely cited), sole
authority repudiating Rudolf Steiner's membership in OTO (by the
way, if you visit his site, you will see that *his* sole source
of information for refuting Steiner's membership in OTO is the
absence of any evidence present in the Steiner family's archives
supporting Rudolf Steiner's membership in OTO [sorry I can't
find the spot at the moment, although I've tried several returns
on a search I just made; I'll append later when I have more
time].
[*]Luke's note: and I do *not* mean to suggest or assert that
homosexuality is a "mental state" -- what I am referring to is
the thoroughly disreputable and probably imbalanced and
certainly impaired judgment of Peter R. Koenig as evidenced by
the quotation.
(snip)
) It's embarrassing when the statements of naive Dorfs and
) Anthropops
) get exposed to ridicule. So they pretend mailing lists with
) hundreds
) of subscribers are private. In my opinion they are
) publications, just
) like letters in a magazine. The writers own the copyright, but
) it's
) fair use to quote them for discussion.
(snip)
To which Luke replies:
I think I agree with you.
Luke
__________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2550.3 ---------------
From: "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik cybertrails.com)
Subject: Re: Need info on Waldorf early education
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 19:41:46 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Christine,
If you are not familiar with the occult underpinnings of Waldorf Ed I think
a good introduction would be Education of the Child in Light of
Anthroposophy by Rudolf Steiner. It talks about Anthroposophy being
applied to everything about the child right down to the type of food he or
she eats (p. 28)
Phases of Childhood by Bernard Lievegoed was a book recommended by the
"remedial teacher" at the school my kids used to attend. It explains
Steiner's "theory of development."
If you are interested in why they celebrate Michaelmas (a former Catholic
feastday now called Feast of the Archangels by Catholics) you can read
Festivals and Their Meanings also by Rudolf Steiner. If you want more
about Michael the Archangel you can read The Archangel Michael by Rudolf
Steiner. It contains statements such as on P. 130 "... we possess our
intelligence only because the higher Being, whom I refer to as Michael, cst
down the Luciferic spirits into this fourth, earthly-human, sphere. This
accounts for hte presence of intelligence in human beings."
Steiner goes on to say "We are able to understand each other as easily as
we so only because the Luciferic powers gave us this common intelligence.
Intelligence-this Luciferic spirituality- came into being because michael
imbued humainity with Luciferic influences, and these have continued to
develop throughout our evolutionary history.....Luciferic spirituality,
which we think of as our intelligence, is widely considered today as the
most distinctive human characteristic."
Interesting stuff eh? The Waldorf Teachers Survival Guide by Eugene
Schwartz also mentions the influences such as incarnation, Lucifer and
other spirits on education and/or educational practices.\
Also, check the PLANS website for teacher training materials and call
institutions such as Rudolf Steiner College in California and Antioch New
England Graduate School's Waldorf program for required readings. You
undoubtedly will find books such as Higher Knowledge and Its Attainment,
Occult Science (renamed to Esoteric Science) Theosophy, and others.
Remember also that Rudolf Steiner is named in Who's Who in the Occult The
Occult: A Sourcebook of Esoteric Wisdom by Drury and Tillett Barnes and
Noble 1997 ).
You might want to ask the people at your local Waldorf School or
Anthroposophy Society branch for copies of reading materials. Read more
than just the "parents guides" the school gives out.
Take care and good luck
Jim
----------
) From: pcbrand juno.com
) To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
) Subject: Need info on Waldorf early education
) Date: Monday, September 18, 2000 3:28 PM
)
) I am not familiar with the Waldorf philosphy of ed but was intrigued by
) their parent child classes only. Could someone fill me in on what the
) concerns/criticisms of this method of ed are? Also if anyone has
) experience with the Chicago schools please email me.
) Thanks,
) Christine
)
) ________________________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2550.4 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Need info on Waldorf early education
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:40:24 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009182144.OAA25404 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009182144.OAA25404 lists1.best.com)
At 3:28 PM -0700 9/18/00, pcbrand juno.com wrote:
)I am not familiar with the Waldorf philosphy of ed but was intrigued by
)their parent child classes only. Could someone fill me in on what the
)concerns/criticisms of this method of ed are?
Have you read the PLANS web page? http://www.waldorfcritics.org
)Also if anyone has
)experience with the Chicago schools please email me.
The only contacts I've had in Chicago were about Esperanza, a
public-funded school for developmentally-disabled children that was
taken over by Anthroposophists.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2550.5 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: P.R. Koenig
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:41:46 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
) ) In my opinion they are
) ) publications, just
) ) like letters in a magazine. The writers own the copyright,
) but
) ) it's
) ) fair use to quote them for discussion.
)
) (snip)
)
) To which Luke replies:
)
) I think I agree with you.
)
To which Luke now amends:
On second thought, I am not so sure I completely agree with you.
I'm new to the mailing list scene, so I'm still evolving my
understanding of it, but it seems clear we are not an "ezine" or
even a newsgroup. Now that the list is being archived by an
entity other than yourself, its contents no longer get returned
on internet searches. It is therefor some sort of hybrid of
quasi publication and a private conversation. While it is fairly
easy to become part of this conversation, it is a closed circle
into which one must gain entry by taking certain formal steps
such as registering and from which one can be excluded.
THis is not my definitive definition, nor anything more than
musings.
Luke
__________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2550.6 ---------------
From: "David Cann" (canndw netzero.net)
Subject: Re: Need info on Waldorf early education
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:42:33 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (39C7D860.593.2D8410 localhost)
Christine, speaking as one of the waldorf supporters here on the critics'
list, here are some of the issues and concerns I hear about early childhood
programs at Waldorf schools:
-- some people are just bugged by the lack of academics;
-- I have heard on this list of waldorf teachers (and not just in
kindergarten) who start dictating and lecturing to parents on how to raise
their children (I've certainly not had that experience myself);
-- the content of some of the fairy tales and other stories is considered
by some to be inappropriate for young children;
-- poor playground supervision;
-- too much teacher direction during "free play" periods;
-- teachers not answering questions directly (with apologies to Eugene
Schwartz, answering a "Why is the sunset red?" question with a story about
putting on red flannel pajamas for the night, for instance); and
-- pervasiveness of gnomes and fairies.
As a parent of three waldorf school students, obviously I have found these
issues manageable or overblown, or else not true in my particular
circumstance. Many other members of this list can probably give you
detailed chapter-and-verse descriptions of these issues (and probably many
more). This is, after all, the "waldorf critics' list". In particular,
Diana Winters has written many times about her (not very positive)
experience as a kindergarten assistant at an unnamed waldorf school; perhaps
she'll offer something to you.
Anyway, I hope my perspective is at least somewhat helpful.
I do not have any familiarity with schools in the Chicago area.
Best wishes, David
) From: pcbrand juno.com
) Subject: Need info on Waldorf early education
)
) I am not familiar with the Waldorf philosphy of ed but was intrigued by
) their parent child classes only. Could someone fill me in on what the
) concerns/criticisms of this method of ed are? Also if anyone has
) experience with the Chicago schools please email me.
) Thanks,
) Christine
_____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2550 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2551 --------------
001 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: The gnomes (was: more about myth)
002 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: P.R. Koenig
003 - "Sarina McDonald" (pandor - Back From Waldorf Land
004 - "truth matters" (truthmat - Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler I
005 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Back From Waldorf Land
006 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Back From Waldorf Land
007 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Back From Waldorf Land
008 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Need info on Waldorf early education
009 - Deborah Kelly (deborah_ke - Re: Need info on Waldorf early education
010 - Deborah Kelly (deborah_ke - Re: The gnomes (was: more about myth)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2551.1 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: The gnomes (was: more about myth)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:20:58 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
This post is in response to David Caan's thoughtful letter to Christine. I
saved Diana's post about the gnomes because it was such a good example of
how Anthroposophical tenets show up in the classroom in the least expected
places. I thought I'd take the liberty to re-post it.
This is an exchange between David and Diana:
[David, on the gnomes]
)Sure. One of my favorite things about Waldorf schooling, the gnomes!
(etc. on the "seat fairy" -- sewing gnomes in parent meeting -- gnomes
whispering tidbits of advice to us -- lucky ten year old savoring the magic
of childhood)
I will try not to snort too cynically here, David, but I gotta tell you, a
little of it goes a long way. I suspect in your role as parent/board member,
a little bit is all you get compared to the children, and it's easy to feel
sentimental about it.
It's probably one thing to hear quaint remarks about the gnomes, and to try
your hand at sewing one at a parent meeting (reminds me of Sune's knitting
one pair of socks in 26 years, making it easy for him to romanticize this
aspect of the curriculum), and of course you see how well they promote the
school when you sell them at craft fairs and open houses. Only a real cynic
would not fall in love with the Waldorf gnomes.
But it's another thing to live and breathe gnome-culture day in-day out. I
had more of a sense of the effect of this, perhaps, being in the classroom
over a prolonged period, than your average parent or board member could
possibly have. The gnomes are blamed for things that people do that people
should take responsibility for (teachers as well as children). The gnomes
can be used to displace emotions and reactions. The gnomes are used to blow
off children's questions about how the world around them works and mystify
children asking about difficult topics like sex or violence or illness. The
gnomes stop rational discussion before it gets started and send common sense
out the window. The gnomes can even be threatening. The children who *don't*
see gnomes are confused.
The gnomes, frankly, get very tiresome after awhile. I've heard children
themselves get cynical about the gnomes.
I'm sure any happy Waldorf parent reading this is disgusted with this wet
blanket attitude and thinks the elementals will be on my case for
disrespecting them. It's hard to argue "against" the gnomes and sound like
anything other than a sourpuss. But it's that old image versus reality thing
again. It's so much nicer to hear children chattering about the gnomes in
the grass than talking about Power Rangers and Pokemon, it's very easy to
look no further, to feel that a "lost world of childhood" has now been
restored, here it was in Waldorf all along. But in that lost world that
Waldorf evokes, children were not always treated very nicely at all. The
gnomes do some rotten things.
Diana
________________________________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2551.2 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: P.R. Koenig
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:49:29 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200009191942.MAA14721 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009191942.MAA14721 lists1.best.com)
At 12:41 PM -0700 9/19/00, Lucky Miller wrote:
)--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
)) ) In my opinion they are
)) ) publications, just
)) ) like letters in a magazine. The writers own the copyright,
)) but
)) ) it's
)) ) fair use to quote them for discussion.
))
)) (snip)
))
)) To which Luke replies:
))
)) I think I agree with you.
))
)
)To which Luke now amends:
)
)On second thought, I am not so sure I completely agree with you.
)I'm new to the mailing list scene, so I'm still evolving my
)understanding of it, but it seems clear we are not an "ezine" or
)even a newsgroup. Now that the list is being archived by an
)entity other than yourself, its contents no longer get returned
)on internet searches.
We're still archiving it, ListQuest archives it, and when we change
to egroups, they will archive it too. So far as I know all these are
indexed by web search engines.
)It is therefor some sort of hybrid of
)quasi publication and a private conversation. While it is fairly
)easy to become part of this conversation, it is a closed circle
)into which one must gain entry by taking certain formal steps
)such as registering and from which one can be excluded.
To different degrees on different lists. Ours has open registration
and open archives.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2551.3 ---------------
From: "Sarina McDonald" (pandora aa.net)
Subject: Back From Waldorf Land
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:13:02 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (200009192352.QAA13747 lists1.best.com)
Hello again, dear list-mates.
I have just returned from the Waldorf Methods Homeschooling Conference at
the Sacramento Waldorf School, and overall, I loved it. As usual, I was
inspired/intrigued by many things, and annoyed/critical of others. I thought
you might find my account of the weekend somewhat interesting, so here it
is.
I arrived early on Saturday so I wouldn't miss the singing; one of the music
teachers always leads three-part rounds and such before the keynote address.
As always, it was beautiful! Everyone thoroughly enjoyed it because of the
skill and enthusiasm of the teacher. The keynote speaker on day one was
Daena Ross, and the topic - what else? - "Bringing Waldorf Home."
I'm not really sure what her lecture was like, because I kept falling
asleep - but I have a vague impression of it being, shall we say, 'dry.' I
seem to recall listening to typical Waldorf platitudes (the same babble
about the positives of WE that you see in parent brochures). When Ms. Ross
began lecturing about the importance of rhythm, on which WE and I agree
wholeheartedly, my boredom actually *increased* (if that's possible) because
she was preaching to the choir. But suddenly I sat up and took note -
literally. She enlightened us with the ideal rhythm for parents to follow
when homeschooling! It was occult all the way. No longer nodding off, I
thought of all my critic friends on this list, and how priceless this would
be to you, and began scribbling in my notebook. (It gave me a nice morning
laugh.)
Basically it went like this:
Sunday = Sun = white (white light, purity) = a day of spiritual activity,
worship
Monday = Moon = purple (reflection) = a slow day of thinking, introduce new
subjects
Tuesday = Mars = red (great activity) = delve into new work, do a lot of it
Wednesday = Mercury = Yellow (communicate, unite) = take field trips or
outings
Thursday = Jupiter = peach (community) = a good day to get together with
others for handwork
Friday = Venus = green (beauty) = painting (wet on wet watercolors, of
course)
Saturday = Saturn ("the great limiter") = blue (drawing in) = a good day to
do chores to make ready for the day of rest
Needless to say, I left the keynote with an "O-tay, lady!" attitude.
My first workshop of the day was with Barbara Dewey, a former public school
teacher who got her Masters in Waldorf (I forget where). It was wonderful!
Amazing! I must say the Waldorf way of teaching math to young children has
me completely sold. Totally math phobic myself, I came out of there just
brimming with excitement - and I actually learned a thing or two. Barbara
taught us some creative ways to teach number concepts and the four
operations. I liked the way the Roman Numerals are taught from the very
beginning, too. Hey, you guys may scoff at gnomes, but I know a good thing
when I see it! (I think the "Math Gnomes" are a brilliant way to teach
kindergartners about math using puppets and story - of course, in WE the
gnomes are intended for 1st grade...).
Had lunch, and then it was on to session two. I unfortunately took "Home
Making and Nature Knowing: Meditative Life Indoors and Out." Yikes. I got
lectured at for 30 minutes about how important it was for me to meditate
each and every day, so I could channel the higher spiritual something or
other for my kids... and then, lucky, us, the whole class practiced some of
Steiner's meditations adapted from _Knowledge of the Higher Worlds and It's
Attainment_." Yay. :-|
After I escaped from woo-woo land, I attended another workshop with Barbara
Dewey; this time, form drawing. I never really got what this was all about,
before - but now I can see great potential for improving my son's writing!
Not to mention helping little guys learn to handle a pencil. In fact, we
were already doing something similar in our preschool, but this went way
beyond that so I was again thrilled to take away a LOT I could use with my
preschoolers and kindergartners. I really learned a lot from Barbara Dewey
(I took 3 of her workshops in all.)
Form Drawing being the last session of the day, I went back to my hotel and
got some dinner with friends.
-----------------
Next Installment:
-----------------
The HS Conference get-together in the hotel meeting room, where I heard a
lovely story about one school's mishandling of a bully situation due to
"karma," and heard a great deal of bull-hucky from some professional
"Steiner-saiders."
Nighty-night,
Sarina
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2551.4 ---------------
From: "truth matters" (truthmatters unbounded.com)
Subject: Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler I
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 13:47:39 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/wall_st.htm
'Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler'
by Professor Antony C. Sutton
CHAPTER TWELVE
Conclusions
We have demonstrated with documentary evidence
a number of critical associations between Wall Street
international bankers and the rise of Hitler and Nazism in Germany.
First: that Wall Street financed the German cartels in the mid-1920's
which in turn proceeded to bring Hitler to power.
Second: that the financing for Hitler and his S.S. street thugs
came in part from affiliates or subsidiaries of U.S. firms, including
Henry Ford in 1922, payments by I.G. Farben and General Electric
in 1933, followed by the Standard Oil of New Jersey and I.T.T.
subsidiary payments to Heinrich Himmler up to 1944.
Third: that US multi-nationals under the control of Wall Street
profited handsomely from Hitler's military construction program
in the 1930's and at least until 1942.
Fourth: that these same international bankers used political influence
in the U.S. to cover up their wartime collaboration and to do this,
infiltrated the U.S. Control Commission for Germany.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2551.5 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Back From Waldorf Land
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:37:25 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
[Sarina wrote:]
)I have just returned from the Waldorf Methods Homeschooling Conference at
)the Sacramento Waldorf School, and overall, I loved it. As usual, I was
)inspired/intrigued by many things, and annoyed/critical of others. I
)arrived early on Saturday so I wouldn't miss the singing;
I loved the singing too. It was one of the few enjoyable parts of our
otherwise dreadful faculty meetings. One of our teachers was a good singer
and organized rounds, etc., and it was supposed to be a bonding thing, too.
I think it did keep a few people from killing each other sometimes.
)She enlightened us with the ideal rhythm for parents to follow
)when homeschooling! It was occult all the way
)Sunday = Sun = white (white light, purity) = a day of spiritual )activity,
LOL! The problem with these little schemes is that there are thousands of
them, and they all conflict.
I must say the Waldorf way of teaching math to young children has
)me completely sold. Totally math phobic myself, I came out of there just
)brimming with excitement - and I actually learned a thing or two. Barbara
)taught us some creative ways to teach number concepts and the four
)operations. I liked the way the Roman Numerals are taught from the very
)beginning, too. Hey, you guys may scoff at gnomes, but I know a good thing
)when I see it! (I think the "Math Gnomes" are a brilliant way to teach
)kindergartners about math using puppets and story - of course, in WE the
)gnomes are intended for 1st grade...).
)
)Had lunch, and then it was on to session two. I unfortunately took "Home
)Making and Nature Knowing: Meditative Life Indoors and Out." Yikes. I got
)lectured at for 30 minutes about how important it was for me to meditate
)each and every day, so I could channel the higher spiritual something or
)other for my kids... and then, lucky, us, the whole class practiced some of
)Steiner's meditations adapted from _Knowledge of the Higher Worlds and It's
)Attainment_." Yay. :-|
)
)After I escaped from woo-woo land, I attended another workshop with Barbara
)Dewey; this time, form drawing. I never really got what this was all about,
)before - but now I can see great potential for improving my son's writing!
)Not to mention helping little guys learn to handle a pencil. In fact, we
)were already doing something similar in our preschool, but this went way
)beyond that so I was again thrilled to take away a LOT I could use with my
)preschoolers and kindergartners. I really learned a lot from Barbara Dewey
)(I took 3 of her workshops in all.)
)
)Form Drawing being the last session of the day, I went back to my hotel and
)got some dinner with friends.
)
)-----------------
)Next Installment:
)-----------------
)
)The HS Conference get-together in the hotel meeting room, where I heard a
)lovely story about one school's mishandling of a bully situation due to
)"karma," and heard a great deal of bull-hucky from some professional
)"Steiner-saiders."
)
)Nighty-night,
)
)Sarina
)
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2551.6 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Back From Waldorf Land
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:56:50 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Shoot. Sorry, everyone, I sent that last post accidentally before I had
finished with it. Maybe I'll try again later.
Diana
)[Sarina wrote:]
)
))I have just returned from the Waldorf Methods Homeschooling Conference at
_________________________________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2551.7 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Back From Waldorf Land
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:16:18 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Here's the rest of what I set out to write before I'd had enough coffee this
morning . . .
Thanks for the report, Sarina.
[Sarina wrote:]
)I have just returned from the Waldorf Methods Homeschooling Conference )at
)the Sacramento Waldorf School, and overall, I loved it. As usual, I )was
)inspired/intrigued by many things, and annoyed/critical of others. I
)arrived early on Saturday so I wouldn't miss the singing;
I loved the singing too. It was one of the few enjoyable parts of our
otherwise dreadful faculty meetings. One of our teachers was a good singer
and organized rounds, etc., and it was supposed to be a bonding thing, too.
I think it did keep a few people from killing each other sometimes.
)She enlightened us with the ideal rhythm for parents to follow
)when homeschooling! It was occult all the way
)Sunday = Sun = white (white light, purity) = a day of spiritual )activity,
These little schemes are so much fun. The problem with them is that there
are hundreds of them, and they all conflict. I looked up one I remembered
reading in Lifeways, a book of essays on Waldorf parenting, did you ever see
it? Here is one proposed by Gudrun Davy which she says is derived from
Steiner:
Saturday (Saturn day) - right conception
Sunday (Sun day) - right resolve
Monday (Moon day) - right word
Tuesday (Mars day) - right action
Wednesday (Mercury day) - right livelihood
Thursday (Jupiter day) - right endeavor
Friday (Venus da) - right recollection
Isn't that nice? :)(Guess I'd better insert (irony, humor, satiric tone of
voice) here before I'm accused again of posting cult apologist propaganda.)
Anyway, there is an eighth exercise, too, called "right contemplation,"
which doesn't have a specific day, but there have to be eight because this
is derived from Steiner's "eightfold path." Of course she has lots of
practical suggestions of how to implement this, like on Monday, consider how
you are using language - are you nagging your children too much? Or I guess
Wednesday would be a good day to send your resume around, if you need a new
job.
So how do you reconcile these little systems, and dozens of similar nuggets
of wisdom? Just pick one, I guess.
)I must say the Waldorf way of teaching math to young children has
)me completely sold.
)you guys may scoff at gnomes, but I know a good thing
)when I see it! (I think the "Math Gnomes" are a brilliant way to teach
)kindergartners about math using puppets and story - of course, in WE )the
)gnomes are intended for 1st grade...).
For the record, to devoted Waldorf teachers, there would be a world of
difference between using this with kindergarteners - completely taboo - and
with first graders. I'm curious whether the Waldorf homeschoolers view it
this way or if there is more flexibility in their thinking? (I am not
criticizing you, Sarina; I also think the Waldorf approach to math in the
early grades is reasonable, and though I don't know if there's any objective
information on how successful it is, it seems like it ought to be. If
there's occult indoctrination going on there, well maybe, others know more
about this than I, but I think they do learn their math pretty well.)
)form drawing. I never really got what this was all about,
)before - but now I can see great potential for improving my son's )writing!
)Not to mention helping little guys learn to handle a pencil. )In fact, we
)were already doing something similar in our preschool,
I never "got" form drawing either, but here again, just to note that in
"pure" Waldorf, it is *not* for preschoolers, and they do not want "little
guys" to know how to handle a pencil. (Believe me, I know, as our son did
not enter first grade adept with a pencil, and it was a hurdle.)
)Next Installment:
)-----------------
)
)The HS Conference get-together in the hotel meeting room, where I )heard a
)lovely story about one school's mishandling of a bully )situation due to
)"karma," and heard a great deal of bull-hucky from )some professional
)"Steiner-saiders."
Are you going to write a "next installment"? I hope so. Was this story
presented to illustrate the advantages of homeschooling (keep your kid away
from the Waldorf bullies)? Tell us more!
Thanks, very enjoyable!
Diana
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2551.8 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Need info on Waldorf early education
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:33:18 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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[David wrote to Christine, who asked what the concerns/criticism about
Waldorf early childhood ed.:]
)Diana Winters has written many times about her (not very positive)
)experience as a kindergarten assistant at an unnamed waldorf school;
) )perhaps she'll offer something to you.
All right, since people seem to think I'm the person to answer this, here
goes.
David, I'm sure this was an earnest effort, but it's very discouraging to me
that I could have spent hours and hours painstakingly explaining what I
observed in the Waldorf kindergartens, and you got this little list of
superficial concerns out of it. I'm sure it was not a deliberate
oversimplification, but it sure makes "Waldorf critics" sound like nitwits.
I'm going to go through these points, trying to limit myself to a sentence
or two expanding what you are touching on. (Ha!)
[David wrote:]
)Christine, speaking as one of the waldorf supporters here on the )critics'
)list, here are some of the issues and concerns I hear about )early
)childhood programs at Waldorf schools:
)-- some people are just bugged by the lack of academics;
We knew about the lack of academics going in, and it's an important reason
we chose Waldorf for our preschooler, as I do think that academics are
pushed too heavily on preschoolers in many schools now. What I did not
expect was that children who wanted more of a challenge would be
deliberately held back and discouraged from asking questions, or that
Waldorf teachers generally do not answer preschoolers' questions. I did not
know that some extremist Waldorf teachers think preschoolers should not see
print, should not learn to write their names, should not even be aware that
letters can be combined to make words and that words on paper express speech
or thoughts. Some think teaching small children the alphabet will damage
them for life.
Ok, it wasn't two sentences. I am a little irked by this caricature that we
are just "bugged by" lack of academics!
)-- I have heard on this list of waldorf teachers (and not just in
)kindergarten) who start dictating and lecturing to parents on how to )raise
)their children (I've certainly not had that experience myself);
Frankly, if you say this didn't affect you, David, I fully believe you. I
think there are gender differences at work here. I never saw or heard
*fathers* getting condescending lectures about putting the children to bed
earlier or the importance of wool undershirts, etc. Fathers do not get the
raised eyebrows if there are Tastykakes in the lunch box. This stuff is
aimed mostly at mothers (and, unfortunately, children, who I believe are
harmed by teachers implying that their parents are incompetent at feeding
and dressing them).
)-- the content of some of the fairy tales and other stories is )considered
)by some to be inappropriate for young children;
That's true, but it only scratches the surface. It's not the telling of
fairy tales (again, one of the things we liked about Waldorf), or the
content of them in most cases, but the insistence that the children not ask
questions or have opinions, that there can be no discussion of the story
afterwards, and that the focus is heavily Eurocentric (though we hear this
is not true at all schools). The gory content of some of the tales - well,
although that was an occasional thing, to me telling small children gruesome
stories, rationalized by their "symbolic" content, smacks of sadism.
)-- poor playground supervision;
And our suspicions that failure to intervene in situations involving
bullying or aggressive or violent behavior has to do with the teachers'
belief in karma: conflicts between children may stem from their relationship
in a past life, and the teacher feels she/he shouldn't interfere with karma.
IMO, it also has to do with the poor teacher training, which shortchanges
mundane things like classroom management in favor of anthroposophy.
)-- too much teacher direction during "free play" periods;
This didn't come from me; I have said that they are very overcontrolling of
children in general, but I meant that in a more psychological sense, not
that they literally tell children what to do during free play. Routine
classroom activities are very ritualized: just sitting down to lunch was a
complicated little ceremony, and some kids like this stuff and others get
very squirmy. When the teacher is trying to artificially impose "reverence,"
kids see right through the phoniness and some start acting out.
)-- teachers not answering questions directly (with apologies to Eugene
)Schwartz, answering a "Why is the sunset red?" question with a story )about
)putting on red flannel pajamas for the night, for instance); and
I am sure this is very puzzling to Christine, without the explanation that
they don't answer questions because they don't want to stimulate the
children's "intellect." They don't believe the intellect should be
stimulated before puberty. If you are baking bread and a child asks why does
the bread dough rise, for instance, you aren't supposed to mention yeast,
you're supposed to talk about bread fairies dancing or something. Or at
least this was the explanation I was given.
)-- pervasiveness of gnomes and fairies.
Deby has put up a post I wrote a while ago about the gnomes, and though I
kind of cringed to see it again, I'm sorry all you got out of it was that we
don't like the "pervasiveness of gnomes and fairies." As I think I explained
to you at the time, once again the gnomes and fairies were a big reason we
signed up! It was seeing the gnomes in action that disillusioned me! I'll
just refer you, and Christine, to that post, which should also be in your
in-box.
And I'll add that parents are sometimes surprised to learn that the teacher
is not just telling sweet stories about gnomes and other magical or mythical
creatures, but that the teachers believe literally in these creatures, and
in many bizarre theories about the role these "elementals" - and other
entities such as demons - play in nature and even in cosmic evolution. (They
are fallen-away spirits who have failed to evolve in the correct way; I
think Debra mentioned recently that, according to Steiner, if you make
certain mistakes in your life in 16 successive incarnations, you can, in
fact, be reincarnated as a gnome.)
But the teachers are happy for you to think these are just cute stories, so
it's easy to make the critics sound pretty uptight for complaining about
gnomes and fairies.
I'm not feeling up to a big organized thing here, but in general, Christine,
our complaint was that in addition to a few nice ideas about early childhood
- such as the importance of imaginative play, use of natural materials in
the classroom, healthy food - you may be subjecting your child to a lot of
dogma and rigidity stemming from many (though not all) Waldorf teachers'
fanatical devotion to Rudolf Steiner. They have often not learned anything
at all about other educational theories, and a lot of bizarre ritualistic
stuff, derived from medieval esoterica, enters into classroom routines (and
later, according to some, into the academic curriculum in the grades).
There is also a common thread that many of these classrooms are out of
control, as were *all* of the three classes that I worked in, to varying
degrees. This is not an accident, IMO; the teachers do not know how to
relate to children. They are too busy getting everything exactly right per
Steiner. The schools sell themeselves as "alternative," artsy, creative, and
nurturing, and IMO they are none of these things overall, though individual
teachers may be more or less talented, more or less extreme in their
involvement in anthroposophy. With a couple of exceptions, the Waldorf
teachers I was acquainted with were *not* nurturing to children.
If you have any particular questions, Christine, let me know, either on or
off list. I hope this helps (it probably just has your head swimming), I
don't feel it's very coherent or well organized but I'll put it out there in
case it helps.
Diana
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2551.9 ---------------
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Need info on Waldorf early education
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:42:27 -0700 (PDT)
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This in and of itself smacks of racism. My people at
one time were beaten/killed if they were caught even
looking at a book. (Of course, Pleasant Ridge in
Viroqua doesn't teach anything about slavery, so the
children would never know this.) I was reading long
before I started school; it was considered important
because it had to do with understanding what our
ancestors fought for and to honor them, besides the
obvious, ie. wanting to learn.
This fairy tale stuff must be what is referred to as
the "oral storytelling" I've heard about re: Waldorf
education. This too is quite offensive (racist)
considering my daughter and many friends come from an
oral tradition, which has nothing to do with fairy
tales, gnomes, etc. It is clearer now why Waldorfers
refer to the oral storytelling as "primitive;"
apparently they consider their children to be
primitives.
Deborah
) We knew about the lack of academics going in, and
) it's an important reason
) we chose Waldorf for our preschooler, as I do think
) that academics are
) pushed too heavily on preschoolers in many schools
) now. What I did not
) expect was that children who wanted more of a
) challenge would be
) deliberately held back and discouraged from asking
) questions, or that
) Waldorf teachers generally do not answer
) preschoolers' questions. I did not
) know that some extremist Waldorf teachers think
) preschoolers should not see
) print, should not learn to write their names, should
) not even be aware that
) letters can be combined to make words and that words
) on paper express speech
) or thoughts. Some think teaching small children the
) alphabet will damage
) them for life.
)
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2551.10 ---------------
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: The gnomes (was: more about myth)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:55:55 -0700 (PDT)
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When I asked about the well-being of three Pleasant
Ridge children (brothers) who witnessed a murder (a
man was shot through his head/brain) in their kitchen,
I was told that it was not talked about. The only
sympathy I heard expressed was for the mother, who as
a drunk and druggie, had invited these men (the one
convicted of murder/her boyfriend and the murdered
one) into her home, repeatedly. I have watched those
three children for several years and it is obvious to
anyone outside of the Ridgie crowd, that these
children are in deep pain and very confused, still.
They were never allowed to express what they feel or
felt at the time of the murder. This is outrageous
and very, very damaging. I also know of a student who
was taken from PR a few years ago and out of her
parents' home because she told others about how her
father was having sex with her. This too was hushed
up by the Ridgies who prefer to take care of such
"problems" internally. Now how does this differ from
what has traditionally been done in U.S. society at
large? The keeping of secrets is the keeping of
secrets; it matters not who is doing it, even if they
do believe themselves to be the chosen people. Are
the gnomes to blame for at least four very damaged
children who are quickly moving towards adulthood and
who may someday have children too?
Deborah
The gnomes
) can be used to displace emotions and reactions. The
) gnomes are used to blow
) off children's questions about how the world around
) them works and mystify
) children asking about difficult topics like sex or
) violence or illness. The
) gnomes stop rational discussion before it gets
) started and send common sense
) out the window. The gnomes can even be threatening.
) The children who *don't*
) see gnomes are confused.
)
) The gnomes, frankly, get very tiresome after awhile.
) I've heard children
) themselves get cynical about the gnomes.
)
) I'm sure any happy Waldorf parent reading this is
) disgusted with this wet
) blanket attitude and thinks the elementals will be
) on my case for
) disrespecting them. It's hard to argue "against" the
) gnomes and sound like
) anything other than a sourpuss. But it's that old
) image versus reality thing
) again. It's so much nicer to hear children
) chattering about the gnomes in
) the grass than talking about Power Rangers and
) Pokemon, it's very easy to
) look no further, to feel that a "lost world of
) childhood" has now been
) restored, here it was in Waldorf all along. But in
) that lost world that
) Waldorf evokes, children were not always treated
) very nicely at all. The
) gnomes do some rotten things.
)
) Diana
)
________________________________________________________________________
) Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
) http://www.hotmail.com
)
)
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--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2551 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2552 --------------
001 - Deborah Kelly (deborah_ke - Re: AP fooled by cult front
002 - "Sarina McDonald" (pandor - Back From Waldorf Land 2
003 - Detlef Hardorp (hardorp g - Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
004 - "David Cann" (canndw netz - Re: Need info on Waldorf early education
005 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Need info on Waldorf early education
006 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Need info on Waldorf early education
007 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - More on early childhood education
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2552.1 ---------------
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: AP fooled by cult front
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 13:05:40 -0700 (PDT)
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One of the local Waldorf parents, who is or was also
on Pleasant Ridge's board, was elected to the school
board in her district. (Her son's now attend a public
high school.) Her election platform was based solely
on preventing the addition and upgrading of the
computers in that school. This somewhat clarifies why
she took that stance, which made no sense to me at the
time because her business depends upon her home
computer, which her sons also have access to.
However, in essence her platform was discriminatory
towards children living in poverty, whose families
cannot afford in home computers. Like all the Ridgies
I know, she is from a wealthy family and thus has no
understanding of or concern for poor people.
Deborah
--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
) The Editors, Associated Press
)
) Re:
)
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,38727,00.html
)
) credited to Associated Press
)
) Dear Editors:
)
) Regarding "Computers Don't Help Kids" (AP 9/12/00),
) your reporter was
) taken in by a slick cult front. You should know
) who's behind the
) "study" reported by Alliance for Childhood.
)
) Alliance for Childhood describes itself as "an
) international
) partnership of educators, doctors, and
) psychologists," but they don't
) reveal that they are a front for Anthroposophy, the
) cult-like
) religious sect responsible for Waldorf schools.
) Anthroposophists
) don't do research, except in "the spiritual world."
) The issues they
) have raised are legitimate, but in this case a
) deceptive cult is
) using them to cultivate their public image.
)
) For public consumption, Anthroposophists say that
) children shouldn't
) use computers until they are old enough to
) understand how they work.
) In their internal publications, however, computers
) are characterized
) as incarnations of Ahriman, an evil spirit adopted
) from
) Zoroastrianism.
)
) "The computer is special because of its relation to
) the spiritual
) being here called "Ahriman."...[T]he world has been
) coming
) increasingly under the sway of this being Ahriman in
) the course of
) the last two millenia, with an ever increasing pace
) in recent
) centuries, and that the computer represents the
) vanguard of this
) development." [Black, David B. The Computer and the
) Incarnation of
) Ahriman. Spring Valley, NY: St. George Publications,
) 1981, pp. 2-3]
)
) This story is even more interesting when you get
) behind the facade.
)
) Sincerely, Dan Dugan
) Secretary, PLANS, Inc.
)
_________________________________________________________________________
) People for Legal and Nonsectarian Schools
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2552.2 ---------------
From: "Sarina McDonald" (pandora aa.net)
Subject: Back From Waldorf Land 2
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 14:49:11 -0700
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Previously, on the X-files...
When the workshops at the 'Waldorf Methods Homeschooling Conference' ended
for the day, I went out to dinner with some friends.
After dinner we proceeded to the hotel meeting room. We were late, so the
conversation had already started. To my chagrin, the "Steiner-saider" who
led the meditation class (((shudder))) was there, and guess what she was
doing? Yep - lecturing. I don't remember precisely what was said all
evening, but a few things stood out:
1)A mother was asking the group for advice about her 10 year old son, who
had become enamoured with hard rock music. Being a classical musician
herself, mom was appalled. The afore-mentioned "Steiner-saider" launched
into a big explanation about how that kind of beat was bad for kids because
it was from the "lower chakras," and "we want to be raising them up higher."
I didn't say anything about this being racist, but I wanted to ask, "So,
does that mean that ethnic African music, the blues, and other forms of
music with 'that beat' are base and less-evolved, too?"
But I didn't - I just groaned inwardly and thought of all of you (aw...).
A while later, I took the mom with the 10 year old rocker aside to tell her
about my husband, the rock musician with fundamentalist Christian parents (a
fable, how Waldorf of me!). She told me her story of why they had pulled
their son out of Waldorf.
Apparently there were several "rough boys" in the class, who tended to be
"bullies." The mom and her husband knew about them and disapproved of their
behavior, but figured they're in schools everywhere so it wasn't unique to
Waldorf (true) and that the school would deal with them (false). The real
trouble came when a new boy joined the class mid-year. This boy could only
be described a classical "nerd": big eyes behind big glasses, smallish in
stature, and shy. The woman's son befriended him, and their parents all
became friends quite quickly.
But then suddenly, the woman's son refused to play with the other boy. When
she asked why, he said, "I can't, Mama, I just can't - the other kids will
hate me if I do." When Mom learned the extent of the bullying - mostly
vicious playground pranks and teasing, but also classroom shunning - and
went to the school to ask what they were going to do about it, she was told
OUTRIGHT that it was due to the boy's karma and they would not interfere.
The new boy left, and so did they.
We also had some interesting discussions about plastic dolls, how soul-less
they were, and how you could keep Barbie out of your house.
There was an interesting idea put forth that watching a movie in a theater
was actually "less damaging" than watching movies on video - something about
the light being projected through the film onto the screen instead of being
projected from the evil TV directly at you. I wish now that I had asked more
questions about where that came from, but I'm sure there are Anthroposophist
think-tanks somewhere where initiates sit around thinking this stuff up -
right?
Anyway, I left the meeting thinking "Boy, and folks think I'M a weird
hippie!"
-----------------
Next Installment
-----------------
Sunday:
Math Movement games for two, another brilliant Barbara Dewey workshop, a
doll-making workshop 'In Which, I Make a Pumpkin Baby' (apologies to A.A.
Milne), and falling into the abyss that is the Rudolf Steiner College
Bookstore.
'til tomorrow,
Sarina
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2552.3 ---------------
From: Detlef Hardorp (hardorp gmx.net)
Subject: Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 00:36:14 +0100
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Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com) wrote on
Sun, 17 Sep 2000 14:29:43 -0700 (PDT)
)You are incorrect, Dan.
)The reason for the use of affidavits instead of public testimony (which is what was at issue) was due to the concern of the witnesses for their safety and security.
You are both incorrect, Dan and Lucky. There were no affidavits either. The sole evidence that the report used was information form the so-called "renseignement generaux". This is special to France: anybody can report anything they like to a special branch of the police anonymously. These statements are called "blancs", because nobody signs them and they thus remain "white". Nothing like an affidavit.
The judge considered these statements essentially useless to base a parliamentary report on.
) Because they feared serious intimidation and harrassment, the witnesses, who were former victims, were only willing to provide their testimony in affidavit form -- a time honored and perfectly respectable and acceptable means of testifying. Such witnesses are sworn in and are under oath just as they would be if physically present in the court room and are equally subject to being charged with perjury if their testimony is false.
All of this was NOT the case here: not one single affidavit! Only "blancs" of the "renseignements generaux".
Sorry to disappoint you here, Luke.
Best regards,
Detlef Hardorp
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2552.4 ---------------
From: "David Cann" (canndw netzero.net)
Subject: Re: Need info on Waldorf early education
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:22:32 -0400
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Diana is not happy with my list of Waldorf early childhood concerns, and
tells me so...
) David, I'm sure this was an earnest effort, but it's very discouraging to
me
) that I could have spent hours and hours painstakingly explaining what I
) observed in the Waldorf kindergartens, and you got this little list of
) superficial concerns out of it.
Sorry, Diana, but I was not attempting to summarize YOUR concerns. Some of
your topics are certainly in there, but it was not my intent to provide the
"Diana list" or even the "waldorf critic list" of kindergarten problems.
These are issues that I have heard about, that have caused friends and
acquaintances concern or led them not to enroll their children, AND some of
the issues discussed on this list.
Also, I was not trying to be exhaustive or comprehensive. I hate spending
time at night composing message for this list (like I did tonight).
You are far better at explaining your view of waldorf kindergartens than I
am. All I can do (and all I ever try to do) is relate my experiences; I do
not try to describe "all of Waldorf".
In particular, when I said:
) )-- some people are just bugged by the lack of academics;
I was addressing the predominant complaint I get from my non-waldorf friends
(and my brothers, and their wives,...). Those folks WANT academics in
kindergarten, or else they expect to send their children to public school
and are afraid that their children will be at a disadvantage if they don't
attend a mainstream kindergarten.
I was drawn, though, to where Diana said:
)... extremist Waldorf teachers think preschoolers should not see
) print, should not learn to write their names, should not even be aware
that
) letters can be combined to make words and that words on paper express
speech
) or thoughts. Some think teaching small children the alphabet will damage
) them for life.
This tells me that the early childhood teachers at our school are not
extremist. It also tells me that extremist waldorf teachers like this, if
they exist, would have big problems with the parents at our school. Either
way, it's a red herring; very few of us would willingly have our children
taught by extremists of any ilk.
David:
) )-- I have heard on this list of waldorf teachers (and not just in
) )kindergarten) who start dictating and lecturing to parents on how to
)raise
) )their children (I've certainly not had that experience myself);
)
Diana:
) Frankly, if you say this didn't affect you, David, I fully believe you. I
) think there are gender differences at work here. I never saw or heard
) *fathers* getting condescending lectures about putting the children to bed
) earlier or the importance of wool undershirts, etc. Fathers do not get the
) raised eyebrows if there are Tastykakes in the lunch box. This stuff is
) aimed mostly at mothers (and, unfortunately, children, who I believe are
) harmed by teachers implying that their parents are incompetent at feeding
) and dressing them).
...and I've had conversations with several of our teachers (past and
present) to ask how they deal with many of these topics: TV, computer use,
lunch food, Gameboy, etc. I stand by my statement.
You can still feel free to dismiss my observations as "only a man's view" if
you like. My wife agrees with me, though. Nor have any other parents of
our acquaintance complained about this.
David:
) )-- poor playground supervision;
)
Diana:
) And our suspicions that failure to intervene in situations involving
) bullying or aggressive or violent behavior has to do with the teachers'
) belief in karma: conflicts between children may stem from their
relationship
) in a past life, and the teacher feels she/he shouldn't interfere with
karma.
) IMO, it also has to do with the poor teacher training, which shortchanges
) mundane things like classroom management in favor of anthroposophy.
Again, I think poor playground supervision is something I've heard about
more off this list than on it. Since I think the 'karma' argument is
absolute BS (notwithstanding Sarina's post this evening, I will just let it
pass.
Instead of stressing "poor teacher training", I would focus on "poor hiring
practices" on the part of individual schools. I would believe that
sometimes too much emphasis is put (when hiring early childhood teachers) on
telling stories, making puppets, and creating beautiful classrooms, and not
enough on handling a classful of kids outside. In other words, a
preventable problem.
Our early childhood staff works hard at preventing bullying and aggression,
which isn't always that easy with easy access to rocks, sticks, and
other 'natural' implements of destruction. Some inquiring parents are put
off by our outdoor play-space, which certainly could lend itself to
accidents or injuries more easily than a classic playground, and it is a
goal of the waldorf kindergarten experience to allow the children
exploration time outdoors, but our teachers and their assistants do their
best to prevent accidents, and do not allow dangerous or threatening
behavior.
David:
) )-- pervasiveness of gnomes and fairies.
)
Diana:
) Deby has put up a post I wrote a while ago about the gnomes, and though I
) kind of cringed to see it again, I'm sorry all you got out of it was that
we
) don't like the "pervasiveness of gnomes and fairies." As I think I
explained
) to you at the time, once again the gnomes and fairies were a big reason we
) signed up! It was seeing the gnomes in action that disillusioned me! I'll
) just refer you, and Christine, to that post, which should also be in your
) in-box.
)
) And I'll add that parents are sometimes surprised to learn that the
teacher
) is not just telling sweet stories about gnomes and other magical or
mythical
) creatures, but that the teachers believe literally in these creatures, and
) in many bizarre theories about the role these "elementals" - and other
) entities such as demons - play in nature and even in cosmic evolution.
(They
) are fallen-away spirits who have failed to evolve in the correct way; I
) think Debra mentioned recently that, according to Steiner, if you make
) certain mistakes in your life in 16 successive incarnations, you can, in
) fact, be reincarnated as a gnome.)
Our lead teacher in early childhood is pretty darned forthright about her
use of, and belief in, gnomes and fairies. Gnomes were the recipients of
many tiny hats and coats sewn together by last year's kindergarten, and
occasionally (but not often) offered gifts of thanks (sparkly stones, pretty
leaves) to the children. Also, the gnomes, as residents of the forest, are
to be respected during the kindergarten class walks through the woods.
Diana's previous post (the one Debra Snell reposted this morning, even
calling me "thoughtful" -- blush), describing gnomes and fairies as taking
blame for problems caused by people, is yet another case where I fail to
recognize anything like the waldorf kindergartens I've seen in her writing.
Yes, I could be all wrong, but I doubt it.
So, Christine (yes, all this is for Christine's benefit), I respectfully
suggest you look carefully at the school(s) you may consider. It's my
opinion that there are as many approaches to waldorf education and
kindergarten as there are schools or teachers, and that you may find one
school that suits you well among the four in the greater Chicago area.
Then, you could easily choose a different school for the grades.
Back to lurkerdom...
David
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2552.5 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Need info on Waldorf early education
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:58:53 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200009201944.MAA14181 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009201944.MAA14181 lists1.best.com)
Deborah Kelly, you wrote,
)It is clearer now why Waldorfers
)refer to the oral storytelling as "primitive;"
)apparently they consider their children to be
)primitives.
The idea is that the children are led through a recapitulation of the
evolution of consciousness (according to Steiner). This isn't a
simple line but a spiral.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2552.6 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Need info on Waldorf early education
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:54:02 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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David,
We are in agreement that lurkdom is a more peaceful place to be, much better
for mental health.
[David:]
)In particular, when I said:
) ) )-- some people are just bugged by the lack of academics;
)I was addressing the predominant complaint I get from my non-waldorf
) )friends (and my brothers, and their wives,...). Those folks WANT
) )academics in kindergarten, or else they expect to send their children )to
)public school and are afraid that their children will be at a )disadvantage
)if they don't attend a mainstream kindergarten.
I don't want to go back into the arguments for or against academics in
kindergarten (there are in fact arguments on both sides, even among people
who have never heard of Waldorf, which is most of the world) - but I think
parents should be very clear that it is possible their children *will* be at
a disadvantage if they attend a Waldorf kindergarten and then switch
schools.
)I was drawn, though, to where Diana said:
) )... extremist Waldorf teachers think preschoolers should not see
) ) print, should not learn to write their names,
)This tells me that the early childhood teachers at our school are not
)extremist.
Yes, there is a spectrum. Only one of our teachers, at the time I was there,
would take this position. And maybe there is a bit of exaggeration there.
She had a few books in the closet, out of reach of the children. They were
mostly picture books but a few had text. Sometimes she would hand one to a
child who was having trouble settling down at rest time. If they asked her
to read it, or what does this word say? she ignored them. The younger
teachers did not agree with her attitude. However, most prospective parents
would never expect to find an attitude like this, and it would never occur
to them that they should inquire about it. In what other school would there
be any danger of encountering a preschool teacher who didn't think your
child should learn to write her name or recognize the alphabet?
Come to think of it, although this teacher had the most extreme attitude, I
think she had (and was controlling) the book collection for all the
kindergartens collectively (three classes), as I don't recall ever seeing
another book in any of the other kindergartens. One of the other assistants
(not Waldorf trained) used to bring her own childrens' books from home, to
read aloud if the class couldn't settle down at rest time; this was
tolerated, since having the assistant take over at rest time gave the
teacher a break, but I think it was viewed as a sort of compromise.
There is a difference between "not pushing academics," and an early
childhood classroom where there is simply not a book in sight, which I have
come to think other educators are right to be appalled by. Coming from a
bookish family, it is incredible to me that I could have ever believed it
was appropriate to basically ban books around small children.
They would say it was all right to read to your children at home. A curious
sort of reversal that I think goes on in a lot of Waldorf families.
Academics at home, puppets and bread baking at school, critical thinking
encouraged at home but not at school.
) It also tells me that extremist waldorf teachers like this, if they
) )exist, would have big problems with the parents at our school. Either
) )way, it's a red herring; very few of us would willingly have our
) )children taught by extremists of any ilk.
It is not a red herring. It is a situation that it is very possible to
encounter in Waldorf schools today. The school I worked in is not the only
one. Although the teacher I have described took an extreme position, it is
accurate to say Waldorf kindergartens not only do not "push academics," they
do everything possible to *prevent* early literacy and they deliberately do
nothing to help a child transition to an academic environment. This is why
these schools need to be very upfront about where and how their beliefs and
practices differ - sometimes differ wildly - from approaches and practices
in virtually any other school.
[re: playground mayhem, karma]
)Since I think the 'karma' argument is absolute BS (notwithstanding
) )Sarina's post this evening, I will just let it pass.
Don't feel you must answer, since I can really relate to your preference for
lurkdom, but I'm not sure whether you were saying here that you think using
karma to rationalize poor playground supervision is BS, or whether the
critics saying so is BS. In the latter case, how can we set aside Sarina's
post this very evening, confirming that this is indeed some teachers'
belief?
)Instead of stressing "poor teacher training", I would focus on "poor
) )hiring practices" on the part of individual schools. I would believe
) )that sometimes too much emphasis is put (when hiring early childhood
) )teachers) on telling stories, making puppets, and creating beautiful
) )classrooms, and not enough on handling a classful of kids outside
Amounts to the same thing, if you want to hire out of the Waldorf teacher
training centers. That's what they learn, the stories and the puppets and
the importance of meditating on Steiner verses. What does it tell you, that
if you want to improve your hiring practices you will have to avoid
Waldorf-trained teachers? Or at least hire teachers with some *other*
experience or education as well, which they can draw on when the Steiner
dogma fails them.
)Our early childhood staff works hard at preventing bullying and
) )aggression, which isn't always that easy with easy access to rocks,
) )sticks, and other 'natural' implements of destruction
New parents are so smitten with the beautiful natural materials. I came to
feel that plastic has its place with children after all. If you are going to
going to give small children rocks and sticks and heavy chunks of wood and
ropes and knives and then karma is your excuse not to supervise or intervene
in conflicts . . . this is a recipe for disaster.
)So, Christine (yes, all this is for Christine's benefit), I )respectfully
)suggest you look carefully at the school(s) you may )consider.
A good suggestion. Don't just go to the open houses, though, as these are,
naturally, very carefully crafted, best-foot-forward events. Insist on
observing classes, several of them, at length. Ask current parents if they
are allowed to observe classes, and if so, what kind of "permission" or
"special arrangement" they need. If they tell you you can't observe a class,
think about whether it would be acceptable to you *not* to be allowed to
observe your child's class when you wanted to. Not all Waldorf schools keep
parents out of the classroom, I think, and I imagine it would be a good
indicator of the level of openness at the school.
Diana
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2552.7 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: More on early childhood education
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:51:09 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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A few other thoughts on early childhood programs, and why some people are
"bugged by lack of academics" in Waldorf. Maybe my perspective has changed,
as my son has gotten older, but what seemed nurturing and sheltering and
protective (Waldorf) to us when he was a tot, now seems isolating, and like
a failure to help children adapt to the real world.
I think early childhood programs should help children prepare for school.
Waldorf educators do not agree with this; their program is about shielding
the child from school as long as possible, putting up barriers so no
influences from "school" slip in.
How about gently, gradually, slowly preparing children for school? Easing
them toward literacy? Not by forcing them to sit doing worksheets for hours
at a time, no. And not necessarily by labeling every object in the room, so
that they are bombarded by print, like I've seen in some preschools, which
seems overstimulating to me.
I think the good programs must include reading to children, though.
Encouraging their interest in books. Talking to them about the stories
they've heard. Encouraging, not suppressing, their questions, thoughts, and
opinions. Encouraging them to express these opinions in writing to the
extent they are capable. Encouraging them to understand how literacy will be
helpful to them, such as making a shopping list, or following a recipe.
(Sarina? Yes? Doesn't this describe a good preschool or kindergarten?)
A few basic skills should be taught, like recognizing and copying the
letters of the alphabet, and recognizing the letter sounds, and numbers 1 to
10. (This is taboo in Waldorf, and I do mean taboo in the religious sense.)
As are learning to handle a pencil, glue, scissors. (I remember a Waldorf
teacher saying - at the kindergarten conference I attended in 1998 - that
cutting and pasting is soul-destroying. Shrivels the etheric body, too.)
I used to shudder hearing about friends' kids who had to trace numbers and
letters in preschool. Poor darlings, robbed of their childhoods. After I
watched my son struggle to learn to write his letters properly, I understood
why it would have been smart, and kinder, to give him a low-pressure start
familiarizing him with the numbers and letters.
My friend's son's kindergarten, for instance, will spend a week on one
letter - this week is T, so they copy and color T's every morning, bring in
objects from home that start with the letter T, or cut out pictures from
magazines, etc., and the teacher will write the "T" words on the blackboard.
They are learning basic prerequisites to literacy like you read a word from
left to write and follow text from the top to the bottom of the page. This
is not "pressure." This is preparation. It is not incompatible with baking
bread or digging in the sandbox or playing Ring Around the Rosie, or having
a pretty silk cloth on the table. (What saves a lot of Waldorf kids, I
think, is that their parents, generally well educated, encourage literacy at
home, despite the teachers' disapproval.)
Moreover, most of the kids take on the challenge of the letter "T" eagerly,
and are *not* beating each other over the head with blocks of wood to get
past life karma out of their systems.
Diana
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--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2552 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2553 --------------
001 - Deborah Kelly (deborah_ke - Re: Back From Waldorf Land 2
002 - "Heather Duke" (profoundi - More on early childhood education- a little HD rant
003 - "Sarina McDonald" (pandor - Re: Bullying
004 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: More on early childhood education- a little HD rant
005 - "Sarina McDonald" (pandor - Back From Waldorf Land 3
006 - "Sarina McDonald" (pandor - Back From Waldorf Land 3
007 - Deborah Kelly (deborah_ke - Re: Bullying
008 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Bullying
009 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Academics
010 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler I
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2553.1 ---------------
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Back From Waldorf Land 2
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:13:57 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Do Waldorfers then prefer "Wagner" to "Rage Against
the Machine" simply because of the beat or rhythm? Do
they not listen to or somehow know the words to the
songs many of our children do; are they unable to hear
the words because of their beliefs and cultural
biases?
Deborah
--- Sarina McDonald (pandora aa.net) wrote:
) Previously, on the X-files...
)
) When the workshops at the 'Waldorf Methods
) Homeschooling Conference' ended
) for the day, I went out to dinner with some friends.
)
) After dinner we proceeded to the hotel meeting room.
) We were late, so the
) conversation had already started. To my chagrin, the
) "Steiner-saider" who
) led the meditation class (((shudder))) was there,
) and guess what she was
) doing? Yep - lecturing. I don't remember precisely
) what was said all
) evening, but a few things stood out:
)
) 1)A mother was asking the group for advice about her
) 10 year old son, who
) had become enamoured with hard rock music. Being a
) classical musician
) herself, mom was appalled. The afore-mentioned
) "Steiner-saider" launched
) into a big explanation about how that kind of beat
) was bad for kids because
) it was from the "lower chakras," and "we want to be
) raising them up higher."
) I didn't say anything about this being racist, but I
) wanted to ask, "So,
) does that mean that ethnic African music, the blues,
) and other forms of
) music with 'that beat' are base and less-evolved,
) too?"
)
) But I didn't - I just groaned inwardly and thought
) of all of you (aw...).
)
) A while later, I took the mom with the 10 year old
) rocker aside to tell her
) about my husband, the rock musician with
) fundamentalist Christian parents (a
) fable, how Waldorf of me!). She told me her story of
) why they had pulled
) their son out of Waldorf.
)
) Apparently there were several "rough boys" in the
) class, who tended to be
) "bullies." The mom and her husband knew about them
) and disapproved of their
) behavior, but figured they're in schools everywhere
) so it wasn't unique to
) Waldorf (true) and that the school would deal with
) them (false). The real
) trouble came when a new boy joined the class
) mid-year. This boy could only
) be described a classical "nerd": big eyes behind big
) glasses, smallish in
) stature, and shy. The woman's son befriended him,
) and their parents all
) became friends quite quickly.
)
) But then suddenly, the woman's son refused to play
) with the other boy. When
) she asked why, he said, "I can't, Mama, I just can't
) - the other kids will
) hate me if I do." When Mom learned the extent of the
) bullying - mostly
) vicious playground pranks and teasing, but also
) classroom shunning - and
) went to the school to ask what they were going to do
) about it, she was told
) OUTRIGHT that it was due to the boy's karma and they
) would not interfere.
) The new boy left, and so did they.
)
) We also had some interesting discussions about
) plastic dolls, how soul-less
) they were, and how you could keep Barbie out of your
) house.
)
) There was an interesting idea put forth that
) watching a movie in a theater
) was actually "less damaging" than watching movies on
) video - something about
) the light being projected through the film onto the
) screen instead of being
) projected from the evil TV directly at you. I wish
) now that I had asked more
) questions about where that came from, but I'm sure
) there are Anthroposophist
) think-tanks somewhere where initiates sit around
) thinking this stuff up -
) right?
)
) Anyway, I left the meeting thinking "Boy, and folks
) think I'M a weird
) hippie!"
)
) -----------------
) Next Installment
) -----------------
) Sunday:
) Math Movement games for two, another brilliant
) Barbara Dewey workshop, a
) doll-making workshop 'In Which, I Make a Pumpkin
) Baby' (apologies to A.A.
) Milne), and falling into the abyss that is the
) Rudolf Steiner College
) Bookstore.
)
) 'til tomorrow,
)
) Sarina
)
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2553.2 ---------------
From: "Heather Duke" (profoundia olywa.net)
Subject: More on early childhood education- a little HD rant
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:29:59 -0700
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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References: (200009212010.NAA19563 lists1.best.com)
Hi Diana,
Hi all.. just wanted to respond to your ideas on early academics- I really liked what you said about encouraging children's curiosity.
)
) A few other thoughts on early childhood programs, and why some people are
) "bugged by lack of academics" in Waldorf. Maybe my perspective has changed,
) as my son has gotten older, but what seemed nurturing and sheltering and
) protective (Waldorf) to us when he was a tot, now seems isolating, and like
) a failure to help children adapt to the real world.
)
) I think early childhood programs should help children prepare for school.
) Waldorf educators do not agree with this; their program is about shielding
) the child from school as long as possible, putting up barriers so no
) influences from "school" slip in.
I agree-this shielding really can become ridiculous- to the point of the children "hiding " the fact that they can read and write from the teacher- as many of you have experienced. All this
talk in Waldorf about making up lessons "from real life situations" and many early ed teachers don't take a child's curiosity as a place to begin, praising a child's efforts to discover something on their own.
It is far more damaging to discourage a child who is enthusiastic than it is for him or her to be introduced to something that is developmentally inappropriate.
I
)
) How about gently, gradually, slowly preparing children for school? Easing
) them toward literacy? Not by forcing them to sit doing worksheets for hours
) at a time, no. And not necessarily by labeling every object in the room, so
) that they are bombarded by print, like I've seen in some preschools, which
) seems overstimulating to me.
Very good points- I think what you are getting at is permitting the children to experiment, rather than forcing them to participate in an activity that they might not be ready for.
I think most teachers can tell when a lesson is being received and when one is being forced.
)
) I think the good programs must include reading to children, though.
) Encouraging their interest in books. Talking to them about the stories
) they've heard. Encouraging, not suppressing, their questions, thoughts, and
) opinions. Encouraging them to express these opinions in writing to the
) extent they are capable. Encouraging them to understand how literacy will be
) helpful to them, such as making a shopping list, or following a recipe.
) (Sarina? Yes? Doesn't this describe a good preschool or kindergarten?)
One of the skills I looked for in first grade readiness assessmentswas the ability to retell a story.
All of the activities you mentioned sounded fine to me!
)
) A few basic skills should be taught, like recognizing and copying the
) letters of the alphabet, and recognizing the letter sounds, and numbers 1 to
) 10. (This is taboo in Waldorf, and I do mean taboo in the religious sense.)
) As are learning to handle a pencil, glue, scissors. (I remember a Waldorf
) teacher saying - at the kindergarten conference I attended in 1998 - that
) cutting and pasting is soul-destroying. Shrivels the etheric body, too.)
Funny, Else Gottgens encouraged me to do activities with paper tearing and gluing with my first grade class. As always, opinions differ on what is appropriate.
)
) I used to shudder hearing about friends' kids who had to trace numbers and
) letters in preschool. Poor darlings, robbed of their childhoods. After I
) watched my son struggle to learn to write his letters properly, I understood
) why it would have been smart, and kinder, to give him a low-pressure start
) familiarizing him with the numbers and letters.
I don't know your son- but like many preschool children he might not have been able to distinguish between letters such as B, G and D for example. This is a place where getting too academic and expecting too much too early can be confusing for a young child. But a low pressure start- like collecting pictures of animal with a "B name" , making up funny letter sound sentences and associating the letter sounds with familiar items, is perfectly appropriate. A lot of Waldorf teachers want the introduction of letters in first grade to be special. It can still be- even if a child has already been introduced to the letters earlier.
)
) My friend's son's kindergarten, for instance, will spend a week on one
) letter - this week is T, so they copy and color T's every morning, bring in
) objects from home that start with the letter T, or cut out pictures from
) magazines, etc., and the teacher will write the "T" words on the blackboard.
) They are learning basic prerequisites to literacy like you read a word from
) left to write and follow text from the top to the bottom of the page. This
) is not "pressure." This is preparation. It is not incompatible with baking
) bread or digging in the sandbox or playing Ring Around the Rosie, or having
) a pretty silk cloth on the table. (What saves a lot of Waldorf kids, I
) think, is that their parents, generally well educated, encourage literacy at
) home, despite the teachers' disapproval.)
A balance is needed between the academics and the fundamentals- the environment in our modern world demands it. Some Waldorf doomsayers ( this is an extreme example) might think that the only goal of modern schooling is to get kids to sit still and learn the Windows ME operating system and related applications so that they can become productive members of corporate America.
Bewilderment in the face of modern technology is fueling this fear among people in the movement so they stick to their back to nature guns even harder. It is impossible to grasp the ways in which the mere concept of literacy has changed even in the last year or so.
We are seeing children's behaviour change in erratic ways, we don't stop to think about whether the situation demands more flexibility towards our beliefs in what is developmentally appropriate.
I think that Onkel Rudi, for all his misguided statements, would have been urging Waldorf teachers to "shift their thinking" at this point. He once expressed a hope that teachers would approach events in the future with hope and enthusiasm rather than fear.
Heather Duke
thinking of the Herr's more optimistic statements
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2553.3 ---------------
From: "Sarina McDonald" (pandora aa.net)
Subject: Re: Bullying
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:18:48 -0700
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References: (200009212010.NAA19563 lists1.best.com)
David Cann wrote:
)our teachers and their assistants do their best to prevent accidents, and
do
) not allow dangerous or threatening behavior.
David, I am wondering if you'd mind telling me exactly how it is that they
"do not allow" dangerous behavior? Because when I expressed concern over the
behavior of some of the children in my son's kindergarten, I got an earful
of Steiner:
"Steiner said you shouldn't speak directly to children, because it's too
'awakening'."
"Steiner said we should deal with these problems by modeling appropriate
behavior, and the children will learn from our example." Etc.
"Steiner said that a pedagogical story would help the child see what s/he
should do..."
To the teachers' credit, they quit this and began speaking very directly
after conferences. I think enough parents complained that they realized the
"Steiner said" B.S. wasn't working. I was glad when they did - I saw my
son's teacher go over to a child, take him gently by the hand, and firmly
say, "_No_ throwing rocks, Joey." Hallelujah!
But playground chaos reigned for almost 3 months before they made this
change, and I've met Waldorf teachers who were so dogmatic that they would
have refused to make any deviation from Steiner's grand plan this way.
I have heard the same stories about bullies over and over on the
homeschooler's list, so I don't think this is just a critic issue (like,
say, the occult significance of nature tables, which most parents I know
who've read the articles on the PLANS site think is nitpicking). Although I
usually castigate people on this list for making broad generalizations that
I feel are inappropriate, I do believe that, in general, Waldorf can breed
bullies.
So, since I also believe that all the schools are _not_ exactly alike, I
wonder if you'd mind sharing some specifics with us about your school's
playground management techniques? This is an important issue for me, so it
would be great to hear more about how they manage playground shenanigans.
Thanks,
Sarina
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2553.4 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: More on early childhood education- a little HD rant
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:47:00 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Hi Heather, thanks! More thoughts below . . .
)Hi Diana,
)Hi all.. just wanted to respond to your ideas on early academics- I )really
)liked what you said about encouraging children's curiosity.
)I agree-this shielding really can become ridiculous- to the point of )the
)children "hiding " the fact that they can read and write from the )teacher-
)as many of you have experienced.
It is good to see confirmation of this from someone who has also been in the
classrooms intensively. Not all the kids want to read and write, and the
complete absence of academics may be okay for some who are slower to get
interested. But there were kids in our kindergartens *begging* to be allowed
to write, especially, (no point in begging to read when there is nothing
there to read), and being basically forbidden to do so, or more often, just
given frowning disapproval for it. I heard parents asking the teachers, "But
Susie has been asking me over and over to teach her to read." The advice was
always to simply be firm and refuse.
This is compounded by the high proportion of 6-year-olds in the
kindergartens. If they've been in Waldorf for three years, many are simply
bored silly, as the program is unchanging and assumes a 3-year-old is
exactly the same developmentally as a 6-year-old.
It took me awhile to see how absurd it was to hold even an immature
6-year-old out of first grade *in Waldorf*, where they are not going to
learn to read anyway! In terms of academic skills (obviously not content),
their first grade is like a preschool elsewhere.
)All this talk in Waldorf about making up lessons "from real life
) )situations" and many early ed teachers don't take a child's curiosity )as
)a place to begin, praising a child's efforts to discover something )on
)their own.
I never even heard lip service to lessons from "real life situations." But I
would assume the reluctance is because "real life situations" in the child's
life are seen as "polluting," as they are likely to involve non-Waldorf
activities or influences (media, sports . . .) Whatever the child has
discovered on his own, is likely to be something they think he shouldn't
have discovered. (And he will then bring that "negative influence" into the
classroom and corrupt the other children too.) Same reason they can't have
"Show & Tell" - the kids will bring plastic toys or action figures . . .
)It is far more damaging to discourage a child who is enthusiastic than )it
)is for him or her to be introduced to something that is )developmentally
)inappropriate.
A *very* good point. Often children who have older siblings are enthusiastic
about something developmentally beyond their realm. Younger siblings often
yearn to do "real schoolwork" or "real sports" like their older siblings,
and the Waldorf teachers' advice was frustratingly not reality-based. I
remember a teacher advising a mother that her 5-year-old should not attend
his older brother's soccer matches, because he had developed a fascination
with soccer which the teacher felt was damaging. He just wanted to be like
his big brother. The boy's mother had no choice but to take both children to
the matches, which were on Saturday when her husband happened to work.
Useless advice.
Another boy had a 13-year-old sister who was sharing the curriculum of her
sex education course at the dinner table (and he was, of course, sharing
this interesting information with his friends). The parents were spoken to
severely about this, since he was "awakening" the whole class, and they felt
that even if it were desirable to ask her not to talk about it in front of
her brother, they couldn't actually stop what popped out of her mouth. "Real
life" is always, always causing problems in Waldorf classrooms!
)I think what you are getting at is permitting the children to )experiment,
)rather than forcing them to participate in an activity )that they might not
)be ready for.
Yes. If a child just can't or won't copy, trace, or any particular activity,
a good preschool teacher wouldn't force it anyway. Even seeing the other
children doing the activity will familiarize them with the numbers and
letters. The point is some exposure to literacy activities, and some will
forge ahead and others will hang back or not be interested.
[Diana:]
)I remember a Waldorf teacher saying - at the kindergarten conference I
) )attended in 1998 - that cutting and pasting is soul-destroying. )Shrivels
)the etheric body, too.)
[Heather:]
)Funny, Else Gottgens encouraged me to do activities with paper tearing )and
)gluing with my first grade class. As always, opinions differ on )what is
)appropriate.
Our teachers even argued over whether *they* themselves should cut and
paste! Sewing and yarn crafts were seen as more wholesome. There was also a
controversy about the use of the watercolor paintings, which are often cut
up to make cards or in other craft activities. After all, they all look the
same, and most kids could care less, they wouldn't even recognize their own
painting later. Some of the teachers thought it was "too violent" to cut the
paintings up later, though, damaging to tender souls.
)I don't know your son- but like many preschool children he might not )have
)been able to distinguish between letters such as B, G and D for )example.
Sure. Even now (second grade) he can distinguish "b" and "d" when reading
but often interchanges them when writing. I wouldn't advocate that they be
drilled or tested on their letter recognition in preschool, just exposed to
the letters!
)This is a place where getting too academic and expecting too much too
) )early can be confusing for a young child.
I definitely agree, and I know there are programs that do this, and while I
don't know if they actually do harm (as Waldorf claims), I wouldn't choose
it.
)But a low pressure start- like collecting pictures of animal with a )"B
)name" , making up funny letter sound sentences and associating the )letter
)sounds with familiar items, is perfectly appropriate. A lot of )Waldorf
)teachers want the introduction of letters in first grade to be )special. It
)can still be- even if a child has already been introduced )to the letters
)earlier.
Realistically, Heather, how many children, even in a Waldorf first grade,
haven't been introduced to the letters earlier? The artistic approach is
nice, but many kids are bored silly by the year-long homage to the alphabet
that takes up most of first grade.
)A balance is needed between the academics and the fundamentals- the
) )environment in our modern world demands it.
Balance is the key. Balance is not offered in Waldorf, I don't think. Some
Waldorf teachers are tolerant of non-Waldorf influences on the kids at home
- the parents reading to them or encouraging their interest in reading and
writing - but I would be very surprised to find *any* Waldorf (k'garten)
teacher who is enthusiastic about this or communicates to the child that
this is something to be proud of. It is a real shame to see them make
parents question themselves for reading to their children! "It's okay to
read to them, isn't it?"
I saw Waldorf kindergarten teachers smile politely when a parent says
proudly that her child is reading or writing, and out of earshot of the
parent she says firmly to the child, "We do not do that here, Johnny. That's
for home. That shouldn't come to school." What a message to send!
)Bewilderment in the face of modern technology is fueling this fear )among
)people in the movement so they stick to their back to nature )guns even
)harder.
Makes sense.
)It is impossible to grasp the ways in which the mere concept of )literacy
)has changed even in the last year or so.
Interesting, what do you mean?
)I think that Onkel Rudi, for all his misguided statements, would have )been
)urging Waldorf teachers to "shift their thinking" at this point. )He once
)expressed a hope that teachers would approach events in the )future with
)hope and enthusiasm rather than fear.
Though I don't see much point in looking to Steiner for advice, or musing
over what he might say if he were alive now, I actually think you're
probably right, that he himself probably did not mean some of his own
prescriptions to be taken so literally and clung to so fervently for so many
years.
Thanks, Heather! I always look forward to hearing your perspective.
Diana
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2553.5 ---------------
From: "Sarina McDonald" (pandora aa.net)
Subject: Back From Waldorf Land 3
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 08:28:26 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (200009212010.NAA19563 lists1.best.com)
The keynote speaker on the day 2 of the Waldorf Methods Homeschooling
Conference was Nancy Poer. Her address was titled "Finding the Energy for
Parenting and Home Schooling."
Description from the conference book:
"Being a parent and doing home schooling demand a tremendous amount of
energy! Where can we find the life forces and what archetypes can we draw
from to revitalize ourselves and empower us in our tasks of creating the
home, nurturing, and teaching? Nancy will share from her experience as a
mother of six grown children (including twins) and her work with Waldorf
education and the spiritual feminine in America."
Not as woo-woo as the description sounds, Nancy Poer was a great speaker.
Not only was she an inspiring and wise 'mother's mother', she was funny
("and then there was the time I came in to find the twins smearing a brown,
sticky substance all over the table, the walls, the floor, themselves...
when I say you have to look for the positive in a situation, let me tell you
I was SO happy when I realized: IT'S PEANUT BUTTER!") I didn't take notes so
I can't repeat much here, but I felt even her spiritual material was pretty
mainstream.
After the keynote, I took another math workshop with Barbara Dewey, "Math
Movement Games for Two." We learned some pretty fun - and pretty tricky -
math games using bean bags, stomping in a circle to different rhythms while
counting, etc. Many of us adults were embarrassed at how difficult some of
these activities were for us - especially us math-phobic adults! I forced
myself to take all the math workshops I could for that reason (my phobia),
and even volunteered to be the "green spider" for a math game involving
string and counting by 4's; dangerously close to actual multiplication
tables, I struggled a bit but managed. Barbara mentioned that many parents
she had worked with who identified themselves as "math phobic" found, after
homeschooling their children in this way, that they had been "healed."
Again, you may scoff at gnomes and bean bag games, but I believe it! I left
there knowing more of my times tables than I did going in (I still struggle
with my 7's, 8's and 9's as a result of falling behind in my 2nd grade
public school class of 34 kids, and never catching up. It was nice to see
that, with a little effort, I would have a chance to re-learn them - and
enjoy it, too!)
After the math workshop, I attended a question and answer session with Nancy
Poer. It was intended to be for folks with parenting questions, and since I
didn't really have any burning questions about sibling rivalry or
homeschooling different age groups simultaneously, I slipped out to go pack
for my flight. My impression of Nancy was again that of someone who had a
lot of wisdom to share - and not necessarily Anthroposophical wisdom, if you
know what I mean.
When I had packed and taken a brief shower (I'm a Seattle-ite and it was 95
degrees!), I went back for my last workshop of the conference, "Doll Making
with Christl Scheier." It turns out that Christl was from my area - Whidbey
Island - and boy, was she a genius doll maker! I thoroughly enjoyed making a
pumpkin baby for my son. I did a good job, too, if I do say so myself. I
love some of the handwork projects in Waldorf.
I'm cutting off short here, without going into my visit(s) to the Rudolf
Steiner Bookstore, because I have to work unexpectedly (staff called in
sick). I will post later about the bookstore, 75% of which was... about what
you'd expect.
Sarina
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2553.6 ---------------
From: "Sarina McDonald" (pandora aa.net)
Subject: Back From Waldorf Land 3
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 08:28:26 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (200009212010.NAA19563 lists1.best.com)
The keynote speaker on the day 2 of the Waldorf Methods Homeschooling
Conference was Nancy Poer. Her address was titled "Finding the Energy for
Parenting and Home Schooling."
Description from the conference book:
"Being a parent and doing home schooling demand a tremendous amount of
energy! Where can we find the life forces and what archetypes can we draw
from to revitalize ourselves and empower us in our tasks of creating the
home, nurturing, and teaching? Nancy will share from her experience as a
mother of six grown children (including twins) and her work with Waldorf
education and the spiritual feminine in America."
Not as woo-woo as the description sounds, Nancy Poer was a great speaker.
Not only was she an inspiring and wise 'mother's mother', she was funny
("and then there was the time I came in to find the twins smearing a brown,
sticky substance all over the table, the walls, the floor, themselves...
when I say you have to look for the positive in a situation, let me tell you
I was SO happy when I realized: IT'S PEANUT BUTTER!") I didn't take notes so
I can't repeat much here, but I felt even her spiritual material was pretty
mainstream.
After the keynote, I took another math workshop with Barbara Dewey, "Math
Movement Games for Two." We learned some pretty fun - and pretty tricky -
math games using bean bags, stomping in a circle to different rhythms while
counting, etc. Many of us adults were embarrassed at how difficult some of
these activities were for us - especially us math-phobic adults! I forced
myself to take all the math workshops I could for that reason (my phobia),
and even volunteered to be the "green spider" for a math game involving
string and counting by 4's; dangerously close to actual multiplication
tables, I struggled a bit but managed. Barbara mentioned that many parents
she had worked with who identified themselves as "math phobic" found, after
homeschooling their children in this way, that they had been "healed."
Again, you may scoff at gnomes and bean bag games, but I believe it! I left
there knowing more of my times tables than I did going in (I still struggle
with my 7's, 8's and 9's as a result of falling behind in my 2nd grade
public school class of 34 kids, and never catching up. It was nice to see
that, with a little effort, I would have a chance to re-learn them - and
enjoy it, too!)
After the math workshop, I attended a question and answer session with Nancy
Poer. It was intended to be for folks with parenting questions, and since I
didn't really have any burning questions about sibling rivalry or
homeschooling different age groups simultaneously, I slipped out to go pack
for my flight. My impression of Nancy was again that of someone who had a
lot of wisdom to share - and not necessarily Anthroposophical wisdom, if you
know what I mean.
When I had packed and taken a brief shower (I'm a Seattle-ite and it was 95
degrees!), I went back for my last workshop of the conference, "Doll Making
with Christl Scheier." It turns out that Christl was from my area - Whidbey
Island - and boy, was she a genius doll maker! I thoroughly enjoyed making a
pumpkin baby for my son. I did a good job, too, if I do say so myself. I
love some of the handwork projects in Waldorf.
I'm cutting off short here, without going into my visit(s) to the Rudolf
Steiner Bookstore, because I have to work unexpectedly (staff called in
sick). I will post later about the bookstore, 75% of which was... about what
you'd expect.
Sarina
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2553.7 ---------------
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Bullying
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:08:25 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
What does Waldorf teach re: self-defense? I have
taught my daughter in Shotokan karate since she was
approximately two years old. She is now 14. The
other day she went to an assembly at the public
school, where the speaker encouraged the girls,
especially, to fight back with whatever they needed
to, even on the playground; he acknowledged that
school staff - private and public - do absolutely
nothing to protect children and that the children are
therefore left to fend for themselves. I have
personally confronted children who have hit my
daughter, letting them know they are putting
themselves in physical danger if they don't stop it.
Of course it breeds bullies. Statistically, women who
fight back against those beating them, have a much
higher survival rate than those who don't. Is it
Waldorf thinking that those who are reinforced for
hitting - which is what I hear being described here -
will someday just stop it? Where is their evidence
for that or is the thinking that those who hit should
never be stopped and should be reinforced for it?
Deborah
--- Sarina McDonald (pandora aa.net) wrote:
) David Cann wrote:
) )our teachers and their assistants do their best to
) prevent accidents, and
) do
) ) not allow dangerous or threatening behavior.
)
) David, I am wondering if you'd mind telling me
) exactly how it is that they
) "do not allow" dangerous behavior? Because when I
) expressed concern over the
) behavior of some of the children in my son's
) kindergarten, I got an earful
) of Steiner:
)
) "Steiner said you shouldn't speak directly to
) children, because it's too
) 'awakening'."
)
) "Steiner said we should deal with these problems by
) modeling appropriate
) behavior, and the children will learn from our
) example." Etc.
)
) "Steiner said that a pedagogical story would help
) the child see what s/he
) should do..."
)
) To the teachers' credit, they quit this and began
) speaking very directly
) after conferences. I think enough parents complained
) that they realized the
) "Steiner said" B.S. wasn't working. I was glad when
) they did - I saw my
) son's teacher go over to a child, take him gently by
) the hand, and firmly
) say, "_No_ throwing rocks, Joey." Hallelujah!
)
) But playground chaos reigned for almost 3 months
) before they made this
) change, and I've met Waldorf teachers who were so
) dogmatic that they would
) have refused to make any deviation from Steiner's
) grand plan this way.
)
) I have heard the same stories about bullies over and
) over on the
) homeschooler's list, so I don't think this is just a
) critic issue (like,
) say, the occult significance of nature tables, which
) most parents I know
) who've read the articles on the PLANS site think is
) nitpicking). Although I
) usually castigate people on this list for making
) broad generalizations that
) I feel are inappropriate, I do believe that, in
) general, Waldorf can breed
) bullies.
)
) So, since I also believe that all the schools are
) _not_ exactly alike, I
) wonder if you'd mind sharing some specifics with us
) about your school's
) playground management techniques? This is an
) important issue for me, so it
) would be great to hear more about how they manage
) playground shenanigans.
)
) Thanks,
)
) Sarina
)
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2553.8 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Bullying
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 16:44:47 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
[Sarina, quoting Waldorf teacher on addressing/not addressing bullying:]
)"Steiner said we should deal with these problems by modeling )appropriate
)behavior, and the children will learn from our example."
I heard this, and the other quotes, often. It's based on Steiner's theory
that the under-7's learn by imitation. Sure they do, but the problem is,
they imitate *each other* as well as grown-ups, who, presumably, are not the
ones throwing rocks or hitting each other. Kind of leaves you without
resources in that situation.
Diana
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2553.9 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Academics
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:38:01 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (200009212010.NAA19563 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200009212136.OAA05307 lists1.best.com)
I attended a fifth grade parent meeting where I heard parents in a very
round about way try to express the simple question: What skills will my
child learn this school year? One of the problems is that children are not
tested and their are no measurements taken on the actual progress a child
makes in the school. But this is just the way Waldorf is. I feel that
academics is really very secondary in Waldorf school, but some parents
don't know this. I realize this, and I can accept that this is the way of
the school. If you want strong academics, Waldorf is not the place for it.
There are too many other things going on such as knitting, woodworking,
choir, eurythmy, string instruments, painting, and who knows what other
strange anthroposphical things. I don't know where they get the time to do
the class play and the foreign languages.
--Rose
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2553.10 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler I
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:06:18 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- truth matters (truthmatters unbounded.com) wrote:
) http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/wall_st.htm
)
) 'Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler'
) by Professor Antony C. Sutton
) CHAPTER TWELVE
)
) Conclusions
What is your point, and how does it relate to this list?
Luke
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--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2553 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2554 --------------
001 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Back From Waldorf Land
002 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Back From Waldorf Land
003 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Need info on Waldorf early education
004 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
005 - Lucky Miller (luckylukede - Re: Bullying
006 - "Heather Duke" (profoundi - Re: More on early childhood education- a little HD rant
007 - "Lisa DeNike Ercolano" (m - Re: Academics
008 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Definitions
009 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Back From Waldorf Land
010 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Back From Waldorf Land
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2554.1 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Back From Waldorf Land
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:21:06 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Sarina McDonald (pandora aa.net) wrote:
) Hello again, dear list-mates.
)
) I have just returned from the Waldorf Methods Homeschooling
) Conference at
) the Sacramento Waldorf School, and overall, I loved it. As
) usual, I was
) inspired/intrigued by many things, and annoyed/critical of
) others. I thought
) you might find my account of the weekend somewhat interesting,
) so here it
) is.
ummmm...I'm getting this sort of uneasy feeling that the purpose
of your post is more to insert Waldorf propaganda into the list
than anything else.
While you expend all your descriptive energies on painting a
very yum-yum picture of your conference experiences (which you
evidently conceived of as a kind of bedtime story -- not
particularly appropriate, since we are neither kids nor are you
our mother, nor is the purpose of this list bedtime stories),
what would have been of more interest to the list, if any,in
this conference (aside from the Waldorf booster club which has
set up camp in our midst) would have been information about the
Waldorf homeschooling movement (something of which I had been
previously unaware), its whys, wherefors, demographics, etc.
Unless your next installment is more substantive and less of a
propaganda vehicle, I'd rather you not submit it.
Luke
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2554.2 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Back From Waldorf Land
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:33:11 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Diana Winters (winters_diana hotmail.com) wrote:
(snip)
) If
) there's occult indoctrination going on there, well maybe,
) others know more
) about this than I
Come on, Diana, everything about Waldorf is occult!
(snip)
) they do not
) want "little
) guys" to know how to handle a pencil. (Believe me, I know, as
) our son did
) not enter first grade adept with a pencil, and it was a
) hurdle.)
In re how well Waldorf does its job as educator, I had a recent
conversation with a neighbor who used to live in an area where
there was a Waldorf school. He said his high school was
inundated every year with freshman who came out of the Waldorf
school unprepared for and unadapted to the public school system.
One example he gave was of a boy who entered high school with a
fourth grade reading level because he had been permitted to
learn at his "own pace", which evidently simply meant that he
learned things when he *wanted* to and so he had never learned
to read properly. He gave another example of a girl who was
unable to complete assignments or participate in class because
she was used to doing things at her "own pace" and couldn't
adapt to doing what she was "told" to do (or understand why the
public school educated kids did), which was how she interpretted
the teacher being in charge of and directing the curriculum and
giving assignments.
He also said you could pick out all the former Waldorfers
because they were so "weird" and didn't fit in at all and
behaved strangely.
(snip)
Luke
P.S. Diana, are you related to Dina Winter(s?)?
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2554.3 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Need info on Waldorf early education
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:48:56 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Diana Winters (winters_diana hotmail.com) wrote:
(snip)
) What I
) did not
) expect was that children who wanted more of a challenge would
) be
) deliberately held back and discouraged from asking questions,
) or that
) Waldorf teachers generally do not answer preschoolers'
) questions. I did not
) know that some extremist Waldorf teachers think preschoolers
) should not see
) print, should not learn to write their names, should not even
) be aware that
) letters can be combined to make words and that words on paper
) express speech
) or thoughts.
To Which Luke replies:
This is *not* and "extremist Waldorf teacher" view, it is the
mainstream Waldorf view. And the mainstream anthroposophical
view, I might add.
These methods, by the way, are not only utilized on Waldorf
students. Because the Waldorf movement is in many ways the heart
of the Anthroposophical movement (most anthroposophical
communities are centered completely on the Waldorf school, and
not a few are in fact comprised exclusively of Waldorfers --
whether teachers, parents, students, "friends" or whatever
capacity in which they are connected) there is a very strong
tendency to treat all adults the same way they treat children
(as conveniently witnessed by Sarina McDonald's treating us like
babies with her "nighty-night" bedtime story about the
homeschooling conference) and to apply the same "rules", methods
and agenda to everyone around them. (It's part of their
spiritual responsibility in providing "spiritual guidance" to
"mankind".)
One of the main ways in which I found the anthroposophical (and
Waldorf) movement to be totally disempowering was precisely in
this willful, conscious, intentional "holding back" of not only
children but also adults (via cult methods, including
manipulating events and utilizing deception), supposedly for
"their own spiritual good" -- regardless of the will of the
individual. In fact, the more the individual protests against
the treatment or expresses objection to their activity, the more
they are convinced that the individual is in need of the
"correcting" experience and the more they will seek to impose
it. I can't tell you how many times I have heard such behavior
justified because "he/she can't do it for him/herself and so
I/we must do it for him/her."
THere are other fanciful ways in which they seek to justify
their coercive and interfering ways: one is to tell themselves
that while the individual *consciously* is rejecting, they
*unconsciously* are seeking the experience and *chose* it while
in the spiritual world (either during sleep or before this life)
but have now "forgotten" it; or else that spiritual beings have
guided them to the experience. The proof of this they find in
the fact that the individual finds themselves in their sphere of
influence at all (whether wittingly or unwittingly is
immaterial). Period.
(snip)
This is all the commentary I have time for now. I may add more
later.
Luke
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2554.4 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: French Parliamentary Report of 1999
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:58:30 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Detlef Hardorp (hardorp gmx.net) wrote:
(snip)
) You are both incorrect, Dan and Lucky. There were no
) affidavits either.
Sorry, Detlef: there *were* affidavits.
However, as I was going to post as a correction anyway, some of
those affidavits were the testimony of expert witnesses, who
were indeed fearful of retaliation.
(snip)
) the so-called "renseignement generaux". This
) is special to France: anybody can report anything they like
) to a special branch of the police anonymously.
To which Luke replies:
Actually, the police in the United States also accept something
called "anonymous tips" and almost every major metropolitan area
has an "anonymous tip" telephone line listed in the phone book.
(snip)
) ) Because they feared serious intimidation and harrassment,
) the witnesses, who were former victims, were only willing to
) provide their testimony in affidavit form -- a time honored
) and perfectly respectable and acceptable means of testifying.
) Such witnesses are sworn in and are under oath just as they
) would be if physically present in the court room and are
) equally subject to being charged with perjury if their
) testimony is false.
)
) All of this was NOT the case here:
They certainly *did* fear intimidation and harrassment.
) not one single affidavit!
Can you direct us to the source of this claim you are making?
Luke
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2554.5 ---------------
From: Lucky Miller (luckylukedefrance yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Bullying
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 12:25:58 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com) wrote:
) What does Waldorf teach re: self-defense?
(snip)
) Of course it breeds bullies. Statistically, women who
) fight back against those beating them, have a much
) higher survival rate than those who don't.
Quite correct.
) Is it
) Waldorf thinking that those who are reinforced for
) hitting - which is what I hear being described here -
) will someday just stop it? Where is their evidence
) for that or is the thinking that those who hit should
) never be stopped and should be reinforced for it?
(snip)
To which Luke replies:
One of the reasons I believe Waldorf breeds bullies is, as you
suggest, because teachers do not stop bullying behaviors.
Another is because of the cult of the will that
Waldorf/Anthroposophy is: very willful behavior is encouraged
and is seen as evidence of a "strong ego".
Also, Waldorf/Anthroposophy believe it is "spritiually
necessary" to incarnate into their life in as extreme a manner
as possible (Waldorf/Anthroposophy is a philosophy of extremism,
as symbolized in the lemniscate which is ubiquitous throughout
Waldorf/Anthroposophy [and which Dan correctly refers to as the
analemma, since a lemniscate is a mathematical concept and
whereas the symbol used in Waldorf/Anthroposophy is occult and
not mathematical -- although they no doubt like the "scientific"
veneer using this term provides], in which everything is
interpretted as being of one of two polar states (good/bad;
choleric/phlegmatic; etc.). In order to get from one state to
the other, one must go as far into the extreme of one state as
is possible before one can begin to return toward the other
state -- there is more, but this will do for now.). So in order
to get the most out of your incarnation as a choleric, for
example, you must become as extremely choleric as possible. And
of course cholerics are stereotyped as being strong willed, hot
tempered, etc.
Luke
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2554.6 ---------------
From: "Heather Duke" (profoundia olywa.net)
Subject: Re: More on early childhood education- a little HD rant
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:48:12 -0700
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more comments on reading, language and taboos at school..
) A *very* good point. Often children who have older siblings are enthusiastic
) about something developmentally beyond their realm. Younger siblings often
) yearn to do "real schoolwork" or "real sports" like their older siblings,
) and the Waldorf teachers' advice was frustratingly not reality-based. I
) remember a teacher advising a mother that her 5-year-old should not attend
) his older brother's soccer matches, because he had developed a fascination
) with soccer which the teacher felt was damaging. He just wanted to be like
) his big brother. The boy's mother had no choice but to take both children to
) the matches, which were on Saturday when her husband happened to work.
) Useless advice.
)
) Another boy had a 13-year-old sister who was sharing the curriculum of her
) sex education course at the dinner table (and he was, of course, sharing
) this interesting information with his friends). The parents were spoken to
) severely about this, since he was "awakening" the whole class, and they felt
) that even if it were desirable to ask her not to talk about it in front of
) her brother, they couldn't actually stop what popped out of her mouth. "Real
) life" is always, always causing problems in Waldorf classrooms!
Sounds like the teachers were giving excess attention to the child who was sharing what she had learned. No wonder she persisted in commenting and making her friends laugh!
When a teacher quietly acknowledges rather than reacting to the fact that a child has brought something up , it will often diffuse the situation.
) Our teachers even argued over whether *they* themselves should cut and
) paste! Sewing and yarn crafts were seen as more wholesome. There was also a
) controversy about the use of the watercolor paintings, which are often cut
) up to make cards or in other craft activities. After all, they all look the
) same, and most kids could care less, they wouldn't even recognize their own
) painting later. Some of the teachers thought it was "too violent" to cut the
) paintings up later, though, damaging to tender souls.
)
)
) )I don't know your son- but like many preschool children he might not )have
) )been able to distinguish between letters such as B, G and D for )example.
)
) Sure. Even now (second grade) he can distinguish "b" and "d" when reading
) but often interchanges them when writing. I wouldn't advocate that they be
) drilled or tested on their letter recognition in preschool, just exposed to
) the letters!
)
) it.
)
) )But a low pressure start- like collecting pictures of animal with a )"B
) )name" , making up funny letter sound sentences and associating the )letter
) )sounds with familiar items, is perfectly appropriate. A lot of )Waldorf
) )teachers want the introduction of letters in first grade to be )special. It
) )can still be- even if a child has already been introduced )to the letters
) )earlier.
)
) Realistically, Heather, how many children, even in a Waldorf first grade,
) haven't been introduced to the letters earlier? The artistic approach is
) nice, but many kids are bored silly by the year-long homage to the alphabet
) that takes up most of first grade.
The year long homage to the alphabet-
I know what you mean.
In the European Waldorf training we learned that ideally the letters should be introduced in the first half of the year before the holidays, finishing with the vowels in December.
How I did letters my first time:
started in Sept with form drawings - line and curve, then flowing forms that were similar to cursive then the first letters
Sept -Dec ( in alternating lesson blocks with math) letters and then vowels
In Feb we started a sentence book- writing sentences with each of the letters of the alphabet: for example
A was once an apple pie
These sentences were either copied from the board, or students could make up their own, if they wanted to write their own sentences. Several children who could already read and write chose to write their own sentences and had fun with it.
The goal was to be able to compose simple sentences by the end of the year and to read from the sentence book.
My approach was criticized by some colleagues for being too intellectual- but it was in line with what I had learned in Waldorf training.
)
) I saw Waldorf kindergarten teachers smile politely when a parent says
) proudly that her child is reading or writing, and out of earshot of the
) parent she says firmly to the child, "We do not do that here, Johnny. That's
) for home. That shouldn't come to school." What a message to send!
Uggh! I agree! And how undermining to contradict the parent in front of the child!
)
) )Bewilderment in the face of modern technology is fueling this fear )among
) )people in the movement so they stick to their back to nature )guns even
) )harder.
)
) Makes sense.
)
) )It is impossible to grasp the ways in which the mere concept of )literacy
) )has changed even in the last year or so.
)
) Interesting, what do you mean?
There are a lot of ways in which electronic communications such as the Internet are changing human language. Sentences are shortened, fast communication is encouraged, and there are exponentially more opportunities to communicate and develop one's skills in writing. Spoken language is also evolving according to the speakers exposure to different media- this has always happened through television, but now it is accellerated. I ask myself frequently how I would allow my children to start using email and the Internet. Not if I would, but how?
Handwriting is no longer encouraged as a skill, compared to keyboarding, which is viewed as essential. Voice recognition software will further change how ideas are refined and communicated.
Of course we have to take into account that these changes will affect those of us who have access to computers the most.
I'd be interested in what you all think about how computer technology enhances or detracts from your child's language development.
-Heather
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From: "Lisa DeNike Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Academics
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:19:18 -0400
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Well, let me tell you: when we enrolled our daughter in a Waldorf school, we
expected "education" to include stimulation and training of the intellect!
In other words, we expected her to learn how to learn using her brain, as
well as her fingers, arms, legs, heart, etc.
Our former school hands out a very nice looking curriculum, grade by grade.
It certainly LOOKS impressive to anyone who cares about the education of
their child. Third graders do botany, zoology, etc.; children learn two
foreign languages beginning in the first grade, etc.
I don't need to say here that the reality was quite different! "Botany"
meant learning that farmers plant according to the position of the stars and
moon, and that plants are aking to human beings turned upside down!
"Zoology" was the infamous "Man and Animal" unit, where Anthroposophy is the
name of the game. Even the foreign languages were a farce ... the children
could certainly sing songs and play some games and count in German and
French, but if you asked them, they seldom had any idea what they were
saying. Another former Waldorf parent (whose step children attended a
different WS) told me that her stepsons were in a 7th grade play done all in
German, and they admitted they had no idea what the play was about! They
were simply parroting the lines they were given.
Waldorf schools have an obligation to disclose that to them, "education"
means something different than it means to most non-Anthroposophists. Though
I certainly want my children to be well-rounded, I would never have enrolled
them for a single day had I known that "strong academics," as Rose puts it,
are not part of the plan. And they certainly were not!
----------
)From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)Subject: Academics
)Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000, 1:38 PM
)
) I attended a fifth grade parent meeting where I heard parents in a very
) round about way try to express the simple question: What skills will my
) child learn this school year? One of the problems is that children are not
) tested and their are no measurements taken on the actual progress a child
) makes in the school. But this is just the way Waldorf is. I feel that
) academics is really very secondary in Waldorf school, but some parents
) don't know this. I realize this, and I can accept that this is the way of
) the school. If you want strong academics, Waldorf is not the place for it.
) There are too many other things going on such as knitting, woodworking,
) choir, eurythmy, string instruments, painting, and who knows what other
) strange anthroposphical things. I don't know where they get the time to do
) the class play and the foreign languages.
)
) --Rose
)
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2554.8 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Definitions
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 19:08:36 -0400
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The Fortunate One proclaims:
(snip)
) (Waldorf/Anthroposophy is a philosophy of extremism,
)as symbolized in the lemniscate which is ubiquitous throughout
)Waldorf/Anthroposophy [and which Dan correctly refers to as the
)analemma, since a lemniscate is a mathematical concept and
)whereas the symbol used in Waldorf/Anthroposophy is occult and
not mathematical. . . .
(snip)
From the Second Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary:
lemniscate
a. Geom. The designation of certain closed curves, having a general
resemblance to the figure 8.
b. Alg. Used attrib. in lemniscate function, one of a class of
elliptic functions first investigated by Gauss (Werke III. 404), in
connexion with formulae relating to the properties of this class of
curves.
analemma
1. orig. A sort of sun-dial. Obs. (and perh. never in Eng.)
2. An orthographical projection of the sphere made on the plane of
the meridian, the eye being supposed to be at an infinite distance
and in the east or west point of the horizon; used in dialling, etc.
3. A gnomon or astrolabe, having the projection of the sphere on a
plate of wood or brass, with a horizon or cursor fitted to it,
formerly used in solving certain astronomical problems.
4. A scale of the sun's daily declination drawn from tropic to
tropic on artificial terrestrial globes.
The Analemma is drawn either as a double line, a long
ellipse, or as an elongated 8 crossing the equator, and is placed in
the Pacific Ocean where it least interferes with geographical
features.
--
Robert Flannery
Spring Valley, NY
litvas icu.com
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(!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN")
(html)(head)(style type="text/css")(!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { margin-top: 0 ; margin-bottom: 0 }
--)(/style)(title)Definitions(/title)(/head)(body)
(div)The Fortunate One proclaims:(/div)
(div)(br)(/div)
(div)<snip>(/div)
(div)(br)(/div)
(blockquote type="cite" cite) (Waldorf/Anthroposophy is a
philosophy of extremism,(/blockquote)
(blockquote type="cite" cite)as symbolized in the lemniscate which is
ubiquitous throughout(br)
Waldorf/Anthroposophy [and which Dan correctly refers to as the(br)
analemma, since a lemniscate is a mathematical concept and(br)
whereas the symbol used in Waldorf/Anthroposophy is occult
and(/blockquote)
(div)not mathematical. . . .(/div)
(div)(br)(/div)
(div)<snip>(/div)
(div)(br)(/div)
(div)(br)(/div)
(div)From the Second Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary:(/div)
(div)(br)(/div)
(div)(b)lemniscate(/b)(/div)
(div)a. (i) Geom.(/i) The designation of certain closed
curves, having a general resemblance to the figure 8.(/div)
(div)b. (i) Alg.(/i) Used(i) attrib.(/i) in(i) lemniscate
function(/i), one of a class of elliptic functions first investigated
by Gauss ((i)Werke(/i) III. 404), in connexion with formulae relating
to the properties of this class of curves.(/div)
(div)(br)(/div)
(div)(br)(/div)
(div)(b)analemma(/b)(/div)
(div)1. (i) orig.(/i) A sort of sun-dial. (i)
Obs.(/i) (and perh. never in Eng.)(/div)
(div)2. An orthographical projection of the sphere made on the
plane of the meridian, the eye being supposed to be at an infinite
distance and in the east or west point of the horizon; used in
dialling, etc.(/div)
(div)3. A gnomon or astrolabe, having the projection of the
sphere on a plate of wood or brass, with a horizon or cursor fitted
to it, formerly used in solving certain astronomical problems.(/div)
(div)4. A scale of the sun's daily declination drawn from
tropic to tropic on artificial terrestrial globes.(/div)
(div)(br)(/div)
(div)(font
size="-1")(x-tab)
(/x-tab)The(i) Analemma(/i) is drawn either as a double line, a long
ellipse, or as an elongated 8 crossing the equator, and is placed in
the Pacific Ocean where it least interferes with geographical
features.(/font)(/div)
(div)(br)(/div)
(div)(br)(/div)
(div)(br)(/div)
(div)(br)(/div)
(div)(br)(/div)
(div)-- (br)
Robert Flannery(br)
Spring Valley, NY(br)
litvas icu.com(/div)
(/body)
(/html)
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2554.9 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Back From Waldorf Land
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 13:39:47 GMT
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Luke,
I appreciate your posts here and have certainly learned from them.
I appreciate Sarina's posts, too, and would like to hear about the
conference she attended. I don't think she's a propagandist, but even if she
were, I would want to hear her views on the conference.
I don't agree that the people who do not agree with us should go away or be
quiet. This "us versus them" thing is characteristic of
Waldorf/anthroposophy also and I don't like to see it here too.
Diana
P.S. Personally, I take Sarina at face value. I think she's a preschool
teacher and she looks for ideas that may be useful to her.
)ummmm...I'm getting this sort of uneasy feeling that the purpose
)of your post is more to insert Waldorf propaganda into the list
)than anything else.
)
)While you expend all your descriptive energies on painting a
)very yum-yum picture of your conference experiences (which you
)evidently conceived of as a kind of bedtime story -- not
)particularly appropriate, s