return to WCA Archive Index
-- Topica Digest --
RE: The cultural xenophobia of PLANS [Re: Dissolving confusion]
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
RE: The cultural xenophobia of PLANS [Re: Dissolving confusion]
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
By pmfar hotmail.com
RE: The cultural xenophobia of PLANS [Re: Dissolving confusion]
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
Re: My Father and No Gurus
By pmfar hotmail.com
Re: My Father and No Gurus
By pmfar hotmail.com
RE: Religion and Mysticism and the truth
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
RE: Religion and Mysticism and the truth
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
RE: Religion and Mysticism and the truth part 5?
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
By pmfar hotmail.com
Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
By pmfar hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1-May-2001 04:29:29 GMT
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: The cultural xenophobia of PLANS [Re: Dissolving confusion]
Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) on 4/28/01 3:49 PM, Sune Nordwall at Sune.Nordwall home.se wrote:
)
) ) Su wrote:
) )
) )) Sune Nordwall wrote:
) ))) The recent argumentation on anthroposophy as having integrated and
) ))) spreading 'Zoroastrism' through Waldorf schools in US stands out as just
) ))) another expression of this xenophobia of PLANS.
) )
) ) Su:
) )) If they are doing this, it's not with the consent of the parents of the
) )) Waldorf students and that's what is buggin' !!!!!
) )
) ) If you beat up your children and your husband every Friday, it's not
) ) with either your husband's nor your children's consent and that's what
) ) is buggin .....
) )
) ) Sune Nordwall
) ) Stockholm, Sweden
)
)
) Sune, this is an interesting and very disturbing "example" that you are
) using to illustrate a point. I had an equally disturbing one thrown at
) me
) by Jo Ann on the Steiner98 list:
)
)
) ----------
) ) From: Jo Ann Schwartz (sr_joanna yahoo.com)
) ) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:47:00 -0700 (PDT)
) ) To: Gary GoodWinter.com
) ) Subject: Re: RV: Where is Steiner buried?
) )
) )
) )) Do you ever admit when you are wrong? Did Steiner ever admit it?
) )
) ) Ummm, and have you stopped beating your wife yet, Gary?
) )
) ) Inquiring minds want to know....
) )
) ) JoAnn
)
) Is this a common deflection tactic of Anthros, to offer a very nasty and
) false personal innuendo about someone in a debate to deflect attention
) from
) the real issue when the going gets tough? When I confronted Jo Ann on
) this,
) she said "It seemed as relevant as anything you posted..."
)
) (and in case any of you are wondering, no, I have never beaten my wife)
)
) ...Gary
)
Su here: Thanks Gary for pointing out this epidemiologic phenomenon in
the behavior of Anthroposophist behavior. I'm putting it in my little
black book...
- And, no, I haven't lately beaten anyone up...even with a wet
noodle...(read sarcasm, Sune, in case you don't pick up on it)
It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1-May-2001 04:33:54 GMT
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: The cultural xenophobia of PLANS [Re: Dissolving confusion]
Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) on 4/29/01 4:13 AM, Sune Nordwall at Sune.Nordwall home.se wrote:
)
) ) Gary, you write:
) )
) )) on 4/28/01 3:49 PM, Sune Nordwall at Sune.Nordwall home.se wrote:
) ))
) ))) Su wrote:
) )))
) )))) Sune Nordwall wrote:
) ))))) The recent argumentation on anthroposophy as having integrated and
) ))))) spreading 'Zoroastrism' through Waldorf schools in US stands out as just
) ))))) another expression of this xenophobia of PLANS.
) )))
) ))) Su:
) )))) If they are doing this, it's not with the consent of the parents of the
) )))) Waldorf students and that's what is buggin' !!!!!
) )))
) ))) If you beat up your children and your husband every Friday, it's not
) ))) with either your husband's nor your children's consent and that's what
) ))) is buggin .....
) )
) )) Sune, this is an interesting and very disturbing "example" that you are
) )) using to illustrate a point. I had an equally disturbing one thrown at
) )) me
) )) by Jo Ann on the Steiner98 list:
) )
) ) [snip comparison with an argument between you and JoAnn on the list you
) ) mention]
) )
) ) You:
) )) Is this a common deflection tactic of Anthros, to offer a
) )) very nasty and false personal innuendo about someone in a
) )) debate to deflect attention from the real issue when the
) )) going gets tough?
) )
) ) I don't think 'nasty and false personal innuendos' are more common among
) ) 'Anthros' than among others debating.
) )
) ) I also think you misrepresent my argument.
) )
) ) In my case it was not a deflection tactic but an argument intended to
) ) demonstrate the rhetorical character of Su's argument by mirroring and
) ) exemplifying it using a variation of the maybe most known type of a
) ) similar type of it; 'have you stopped beating your wife yet?'
) )
) ) I assumed most are aquainted with it, thereby realizing I used it as a
) ) type argument and not as a personal argument about Su as a person, and
) ) just rewrote it slightly to make it possible to recognize the nature of
) ) Su's argument.
)
) Gary:
) But because you "personalized" it and broadcast it to a public list open
) to
) the world (including search engines), I consider it a serious ad
) homonym,
) and you owe Su an apology.
)
) )
) ) Regards,
) )
) ) Sune Nordwall
) ) Stockholm, Sweden
)
Su: Unfortunately, Sune, your little prosaic turns of phrase just don't
get you where you want to go.
Try a different tack; be direct and answer the question of why
Zoroastrianism *should* be taught to children without their parents
knowledge.Answer directly, if you dare!
It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 04:36:33 -0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (pmfar hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
Jeff talks abot skepticism and gullibility.
Peter responds not to everything that Jeff says but just a bit. If you look
at the history of science particularly over the last 200 years, you do not
see skepticism preventing new models from being investigated and adopted. In
fact I would argue that the very skepticism of scientists has allowed them
as a group to be about the most imaginative group and the group most willing
to embrace change within the cultures that they inhabit, contrary to the
view that you are suggesting.
Peter
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1-May-2001 04:39:38 GMT
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: The cultural xenophobia of PLANS [Re: Dissolving confusion]
Sune Nordwall wrote:
) Gary, you wrote, commenting a posting by me:
)
) Me [Sune]:
) ) ) In my case it was not a deflection tactic but an argument intended to
) ) ) demonstrate the rhetorical character of Su's argument by mirroring and
) ) ) exemplifying it using a variation of the maybe most known type of a
) ) ) similar type of it; 'have you stopped beating your wife yet?'
) ) )
) ) ) I assumed most are aquainted with it, thereby realizing I used it as a
) ) ) type argument and not as a personal argument about Su as a person, and
) ) ) just rewrote it slightly to make it possible to recognize the nature of
) ) ) Su's argument.
) )
) ) Gary:
) ) But because you "personalized" it and broadcast it to a public list open
) ) to
) ) the world (including search engines), I consider it a serious ad
) ) homonym,
) ) and you owe Su an apology.
)
) As can be seen from my posting, its arguing on Su's posting was strictly
) stylized, using an extensively well known classical example from
) rhetoric as basis to show the purely rhetorical character of Su's
) comment.
)
) It probably was and is completely clear to all on the list from the
) context of the argumentation that it in no way implied that neither I
) nor anyone else on the list had or has any reason whatsoever to believe
) that Su, as a woman, beats up her husband, as man, and her children on
) Fridays ... Or you seriously mean that it is not completely clear to
) you?
)
) Are you looking for a reason to get back on me because you were thrown
) off an anthroposophical list of which I never even was a member, to my
) memory?
)
) ... But then, I once was thrown off this list for suggesting that a
) poster using 'Heytawin' as name on this list might have the gender of a
) 'cat', when his/her gender was a question on this list, as I had
) searched the net for the normal use of Heytawin, to see if it was a name
) normally referring to males or to females and not having come to any
) conclusive results, except for a cat with the name ...
)
) So what do you know?
)
) You did not find all the postings by me that you in a posting had
) referred to as 'oozing with racism' ...? If you don't, must that not be
) considered a much more serious direct personal ad hominem (racist!) than
) in a purely hypothetical way using a classical example from rhetoric as
) an illustration of an argument?
)
) Or you want to apologize to me?
)
) Regards,
)
) Sune Nordwall
Su: Unfortunately we've all lost you by now. But Still daring you to
answer my original question--Which you have not, by the way!
And Thanks Gary, for being a gentleman. From what I've gathered
(Something Anthroposophists don't necessarily have to be...)
It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 04:45:12 -0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (pmfar hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: My Father and No Gurus
Jeff:
)How one defines cult has become clearer in recent years by specialists in
)the field and obvious examples. To compare Steiner and his movement with
)Charlie Manson, Jim Jones, Elizabeth Claire Prophet, David Koresh, or Do
)and
)Me (UFO suicide cult in San Diego is reaaaaallly stretching it.
Peter:
My point about the comparison with Brunton in Jeffrey Masson's book concerns
the apparent unwillingness of many followers of Steiner to examine objective
evidence which calls into question their opinions and beliefs about him.
I think that unwillingness is clearly evident in all of the followers that I
have read who contribute to this list.
Peter
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 04:50:06 -0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (pmfar hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: My Father and No Gurus
I did not say he was greedy. But I am correct in saying that he did not have
to work for much of his life on anything other than anthroposophy. It is
also true that many people attended his lectures. He did not stop giving
them. I did not say there was anything wrong in being supported financially
for doing work thaty is perceived to be valuable, nor in gaining self
satisfaction or in enjoying the praise of those who think you do a good job.
You are telling me he did not do it for those reasons. Easily said. Very
difficult to prove.
Peter
)From: jeff auen (pacbay home.com)
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: Re: My Father and No Gurus
)Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 13:51:41 -0700
)
)
)This sort of testing should be done. It seems clear
) ) that the claims of many of them including Steiner fail that testing.
) ) In a previous posting which you may have missed, I argued that Steiner
)did
) ) indeed obtain personal gain and self-aggrandizement through his
)activities.
)
)When and where did his ego swell and the Carnegie millions flow through his
)coffers? He may have taken pride in starting something from nothing against
)great resistence; had great confidence in his being a spiritual innovator
)but if success is measured by numbers: money, members; and expansion, then
)he was a "failure" in the world. He was not a guru figure and constantly
)warned against it and vacant mysticism - I am One with God for Forever;
)just
)love your fellow man and all is will be peaceful, etc. There will always be
)those who will project upon him this status of authority but not guru. He
)was not a God or Master and no AP would claim this. Lets be fair now.
)
)A Brief reply or reference is okay. We must get some real work done.
)
)Jeff
)
)
)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1-May-2001 05:00:06 GMT
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Religion and Mysticism and the truth
Debra Snell wrote:
) )Jeff wrote:
) )
) ))Show me where he borrowed or twisted preexisting information, on
) ))say, the nature of the spiritual hierarchies and their activities on
) )))Earth
) ))and in the post mortem state, or reincarntional studies as in )Karmic
) ))Relationships volume 1-8. You may think he is a fraud but all )this came
) ))from "him" not some other source.
) )
) )Oh boy Jeff, you don't know what you just took on.
) )
) )Looking forward to Sharon's response!
) )Diana
)
) Debra:
)
) How funny, Diana! I thought the exact same thing! Sharon will take you
) on
) in a hot second. Jeff, how hard have you worked to find Steiner's
) insights
) any where else? Do you believe Steiner received his knowledge through
) his
) clairvoyant capacities? Aren't you into Rosicrucianism? Waldorf schools
) are
) occult mystery schools. Like Dan says, "It is ALL Anthroposophy, ALL the
) time." Read the WC archives.
)
)
) We have been promised a great debate between Sharon and Robert Flannery
) on
) this issue as soon as Robert Flannery's school lets out. So far, no one
) other than you and Robert has even disagreed with the research, and
) Robert
) just went away after we provided evidence to back up the claim. Sharon
) has
) peeled off every layer of Anthroposophy, and it is quite transparent
) once
) one understands it. Get your research skills in order. Sharon will tell
) you
) the books to buy. I'd start with 'The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and
) Secrets' by Barbara Walker. Then take any of Steiner's claims about the
) spirit world and find out where his ideas REALLY came from. It isn't
) rocket science and I dare you to explore a bit deeper than Steiner.
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
) Jeff, do you have children in Waldorf?
Su here: All great minds-- Sharon, Debra, Diana-- think alike !!
It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1-May-2001 05:06:50 GMT
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Religion and Mysticism and the truth
soma mwt.net wrote:
)
)
) ) )Jeff wrote:
) ) )
) ) ))Show me where he borrowed or twisted preexisting information, on
) ) ))say, the nature of the spiritual hierarchies and their activities on
) ) )))Earth
) ) ))and in the post mortem state, or reincarntional studies as in )Karmic
) ) ))Relationships volume 1-8. You may think he is a fraud but all )this came
) ) ))from "him" not some other source.
)
) Sharon:
) Read "Rosicrucianism and Modern Initiation, Mystery Centres of theMiddle
) Ages"
) by Rudolf Steiner where Steiner gives some of his sources, namely
) occultists
) from as early as the 9th century on through the ages. Steiner mentions
) some of
) his sources by name, for example Albertus Magnus, Eliphas Levi, Raimon
) Lull,
) Pico Della Mirandola, Agrippa of Nettesheim, etc. *If* you believe in
) reincarnation, and you believe that Steiner is a great Western Initiate,
) well
) then Jeff, you may be correct. If Jesus was the reincarnation of
) Zarathrustra.....and Steiner was the reincarnation of Enkidu, the first
) man,
) then perhaps all this mumbo jumbo is from Steiner after all?
)
)
Su: It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra (Right on Yogi!--I should
say Sharon!!)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1-May-2001 05:21:04 GMT
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Religion and Mysticism and the truth part 5?
jeff auen wrote:
) I have read these works more than once as well as over 1000 lectures and
) nearly all his written books in English (apart from lectures) and he
) makes constant references to other occultists and esotericists but
) within the context of the Mystery Tradition as a whole which he claims
) he is but one stepping stone and not the last word (though he does lay
) special claim to Anthroposophy as being the best expression of this
) tradition now- which I do not necessary agree with). In fact, he
) mentioned on occasion, that APs who not recognize the next step this
) movement would take in the future.
)
) His insights about all these past individuals and their contributions
) (and possible errors handed down over the centuries) are well known.
) His weaving of a historical tapestry connecting past individuals
) together with changes in intellectual and spiritual change is part of
) his evolutionary progression model of human evolution and cultural
) development.
)
) G. Harrison's work, The Transcendental Universe written during Steiner
) life is another independent source verifying that Steiner knew what he
) was talking about. Harrison was an complete anomaly in that he belonged
) to no group or school yet somehow achieved "metaphysical access" and
) experience of the so-called unknown realms spoken of in mystical
) literature. He describes in detail the very same things Steiner spoke of
) . Their similarities are not due to plagiarism or borrowing because the
) details are presented from a different angle and with direct distinctive
) references that only one observing something can know. I suggest you
) read Occult Movements of the 19th Century and Harrison's work to see the
) similarities and agreements. To my knowledge they did not know each
) other personally and never spoke about each other.
)
) The book, God in My Adventure by Rom Landau is another good reference
) from 1935 (now out of print). Instead of borrowing from second and third
) hand reports about Steiner and others (as we must do), he actually
) interviewed him and spend time with him as journalist. He interviewed
) virtually every "mystic" and cult leader in the 20's and 30's from
) Steiner to Meher Baba to Gurdjieff to Krishnamutri to Bo Yin Ra and
) Count Kyserling.. He found Steiner to be one of the most credible, if
) not the most, among all those teaching at the time.
)
) The proof in the pudding is duplication of results not just in
) assertions. Did he or didn't he attain to something akin to peers and
) others in the field. There were other peers at that time and shortly
) after: Dion Fortune, Max Heindel, Manly Palmer Hall, Harrison, Eduard
) Suare, a young Gurdjieff, Meher Baba, Krishnamutri (who sensibly left
) the Theosophical Society and its problems behind at a young age); et.
) al. And many since have generated elementary but similar results by
) using some of his or traditional spiritual disciplines : In Steiner's
) case, for example, he describes in detail certain phenomena a
) practitioner may encounter when undergoing spiritual training e.g..
) currents that are activated in the physical body; changes in heat and
) cold; changes in diet and its effect on the body and consciousness; how
) alcohol and caffeine impact consciousness; changes in dream life from
) meditation; changes in memory from normal to more visual and panoramic,
) etc.. These and other results can be tested for oneself if true or not.
) They are outlined in Guidance in Esoteric Training and Effects of
) Esoteric Training on the Bodies of Man and a variety of other "schools".
) I have never seen these reference before in any literature or talks
) pre-dating Steiner.
)
)
) As for Steiner's past lives. This is a chuckle. Even on Steiner oriented
) lists there are arguments about the claims of some authors and followers
) as to his "past lives".As far as I know, he never said specifically but
) let out a hint here and there but never spent much time on it. His
) proponents take a certain pride in associating him with Thomas Aquinas,
) though. I do not take one AP source as gospel since its often
) speculative or trying to tie loose ends together, which there are an
) abundance.
)
) Jeff
Su: For a part-timer, you sure sound like a full-timer
(Anthroposophist/Waldorfer) to me!!
Been to the "Branch" lately?
It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 05:51:43 -0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (pmfar hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
I think this is the study Jeff was suggesting I look at.
Harris WS. Gowda M. Kolb JW. Strychacz CP. Vacek JL. Jones PG. Forker A.
O'Keefe JH. McCallister BD.
"A randomized, controlled trial of the effects of remote, intercessory
prayer on outcomes in patients admitted to the coronary care unit"
Archives of Internal Medicine. 159(19):2273-2278, 1999 Oct 25.
Abstract
Context: Intercessory prayer (praying for others) has been a common response
to sickness for millennia, but it has received little scientific attention.
The positive findings of a previous controlled trial of intercessory prayer
have yet to be replicated.
Objective: To determine whether remote, intercessory prayer for
hospitalized, cardiac patients will reduce overall adverse events and length
of stay. Design: Randomized, controlled, double-blind,
prospective,parallel-group trial. Setting: Private, university-associated
hospital. Patients: Nine hundred ninety consecutive patients who were newly
admitted to the coronary care unit (CCU). Intervention: At the time of
admission, patients were randomized to receive remote, intercessory prayer
(prayer group) or not (usual care group). The first names of patients in the
prayer group were given to a team of outside intercessors who prayed for
them daily for 4 weeks. Patients were unaware that they were being prayed
for, and the intercessors did not know and never met the patients. Main
Outcome Measures: The medical course from CCU admission to hospital
discharge was summarized in a CCU course score derived from blinded,
retrospective chart review. Results: Compared with the usual care group (n =
524),the prayer group (n = 466) had lower mean +/- SEM weighted (6.35 +/-
0.26 vs 7.13 +/- 0.27; P = .04) and
unweighted (2.7 +/- 0.1 vs 3.0 +/- 0.1; P = .04) CCU course scores.
Lengths of CCU and hospital stays were not different. Conclusions: Remote,
intercessory prayer was associated with lower CCU course scores. This result
suggests that prayer may be an effective adjunct to standard medical care.
[References: 24]
There is also this paper which attempts to review the available evidence.
Astin JA. Harkness E. Ernst E.
"The efficacy of "distant healing": A systematic review of randomized
trials"
Annals of Internal Medicine. 132(11):903-910, 2000 Jun 6.
Abstract
Purpose: To conduct a systematic review of the available data on the
efficacy of any form of "distant healing" (prayer, mental healing,
Therapeutic Touch, or spiritual healing) as treatment for any medical
condition. Data Sources: Studies were identified by an electronic search of
the MEDLINE, PsychLIT, EMBASE, CISCOM, and Cochrane Library databases from
their inception to the end of 1999 and by contact with researchers in the
field. Study Selection: Studies with the following features were included:
random assignment, placebo or other adequate control, publication in
peer-reviewed journals, clinical (rather than experimental) investigations,
and use of human participants. Data Extraction: Two investigators
independently extracted data on study design, sample size, type of
intervention, type of control, direction of effect (supporting or refuting
the hypothesis), and nature of the outcomes. Data Synthesis: A total of 23
trials involving 2774 patients met the inclusion criteria and were analyzed.
Heterogeneity of the studies precluded a formal meta-analysis. Of the
trials, 5 examined prayer as the distant healing intervention, 11 assessed
noncontact Therapeutic Touch, and 7 examined other forms of distant healing.
Of the 23 studies, 13 (57%) yielded statistically significant treatment
effects, 9 showed no effect over control interventions, and 1 showed a
negative effect. Conclusions: The methodologic limitations of several
studies make it difficult to draw definitive conclusions about the efficacy
of distant healing. However, given that approximately 57% of trials showed a
positive treatment effect, the evidence thus far merits further study.
[References: 52]
Can we draw any conclusions? I think this analysis suggests that at best the
data supporting the efficacy of remote prayer is weak. Both of these papers
are relatively recent, so I suspect further work will come.
Peter
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 06:09:07 -0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (pmfar hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
Peter responds more to Jeff comments on gullibility and skepticism.
I want to come back to Waldorf and Anthroposophy. What we see with both of
these is an unwillingness by practitioners of Waldorf education,
Anthroposophical medical practice, and Biodynamic agriculture to use the
objective tools available in modern science and statistics to test the
claims made. After 75 years of Waldorf education there are no studies of the
outcomes. Why not?
Let's try this for example.
Carpenter-Boggs L. Kennedy AC. Reganold JP.
"Organic and biodynamic management: Effects on soil biology"
Soil Science Society of America Journal. 64(5):1651-1659, 2000 Sep-Oct.
Abstract:
Biodynamic agriculture is a unique organic farming system that
utilizes, in addition to the common tools of organic agriculture, specific
fermented herbal preparations as compost additives and field sprays. The
objective of this work was to determine whether biodynamic compost or field
spray preparations affect the soil biological community in the short term,
beyond the effects of organic management. Four fertilizer options: (i)
composted dairy manure and bedding (organic fertilization), (ii) the same
material composted with biodynamic compost preparations, (iii) mineral
fertilizers, and (iv) no fertilizer were investigated with and without the
biodynamic field spray preparations. Both biodynamic and nonbiodynamic
composts increased soil microbial biomass, respiration, dehydrogenase
activity, soil C mineralized in 10 d (MinC), earthworm (Lumbricus
terrestris) population and biomass, and metabolic quotient of respiration
per unit biomass (qCO(2)) by the second year of study. No significant
differences were found between soils fertilized with biodynamic vs.
nonbiodynamic compost. Use of biodynamic field sprays was associated with
more MinC and minor differences in soil microbial fatty acid profiles in the
first year of study. There were no other observed effects of the biodynamic
preparations. Organically and biodynamically managed soils had similar
microbial status and were more biotically active than soils that did not
receive organic fertilization. Organic management enhanced soil biological
activity, but additional use of the biodynamic preparations did not
significantly affect the soil biotic parameters tested.
Will this study have any effect on any of the practitioners of Biodynamic
agriculture? How many are aware of it? How many others are there in the peer
reviewed literature? Are they referenced in Biodynamical publications? When
they are supportive? When they are negative?
I am perfectly happy for people to believe things. I do myself. But when
evidence aout belief becomes available it should not be ignored. Moreover,
if the belief is reasonably easy to test why not?
Peter
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 265
-- Topica Digest --
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/III
By soma mwt.net
Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
By winters_diana hotmail.com
RE: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/III
By alice javanet.com
Steiner and medical training
By pacbay home.com
Weil on Iscador
By steve premofine.com
Re: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
By pacbay home.com
Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
By pacbay home.com
Re: Religion and Mysticism and the truth part 5?
By pacbay home.com
Re: Steiner and medical training
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Religion and Mysticism and the truth part 5?
By soma mwt.net
Re: Steiner and medical training
By snell netshel.net
Re: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
By winters_diana hotmail.com
RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
By rbc supranet.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By rbc supranet.com
Re: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
By pacbay home.com
Re: Steiner and medical training
By pacbay home.com
Re: Steiner and medical training
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: The cultural xenophobia of PLANS [Re: Dissolving confusion]
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 08:37:58 -0700
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/III
) Sune:
)
) In this keeping of conscious untruths in their material at the site of
) PLANS, Peter Staudenmaier and Dan Dugan stand out as brothers in spirit.
Sharon:
Dear, dear Sune. Your arguments are weak, weak, weak. It doesn't take but a
half wit to read Steiner and to come to the same conclusions as Peter and
Dan. I've never read so much drivel, racism and propaganda as I have since
falling in with a bunch of Anthroposophists and reading Steiner. Please add
me to your list of "brothers in spirit". I will stand tall along side Peter
and Dan and Truth.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 13:31:11 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
Jeff thinks "alternative models" should be taught in Waldorf, because he
studied them as part of the "history of science" in college. I explain that
Waldorf does nothing resembling "history of science"; things like the four
elements, Bible stories (examples) are taught as fact, by immersion,
appealing to the senses, not the brain. Committed to memory, illustrated,
recited, acted out, etc. - *not* open to inquiry or comparison.
Jeff said:
)I agree with you! Waldorf has a background intent and it needs to be
)redefined and made clear to parents.
By "agreeing," are you saying, that the schools *should* immerse the
children, should present "alterntive models" in an uncritical way, should
never encourage a recognition of different viewpoints - i.e., Waldorf
*should* be anthroposophic Sunday school - only they should explain all this
to the parents first? If so, how does this fit with your admiration for the
"history of science" (or religion) approach?
Or are you saying you agree with me that these alternatives should be
presented in some kind of critical framework? ("Critical" perhaps being too
strong a term; I'm not suggesting third graders, for instance, should
"criticize" Bible stories - only that if you want to do a "comparative
religion" type thing, you can't present them as universal truth, but must
explain that there are many world religions.)
If you would like this approach, surely you understand that it is not
Waldorf? In Waldorf, the children must hear these stories, the stories must
"live in" them, must be felt by the children to be "true," because they are
supposed to represent a universal stage in the children's consciousness that
corresponds - or so Waldorf, due to its parochialism, believes - to a stage
thought to be part of humanity's development as a whole.
All that is supposedly ruined if the teacher says, "These are
Judeo-Christian beliefs, now the Muslims, they tell a different story." To
step back that much from it, look at it in relation to something else, would
be "intellectualizing" the children (basically it would mean they might
*not* accept the stories as true).
Which did you mean, Jeff?
Diana
)The kids live it and breathe it, copy it in their books, illustrate )it,
)embellish the borders nicely, and that's that.
)If you're going to do this "open-mindedness" thing, you also have to
)encourage the kids to develop - or at least not squash - the skills to
)sort things out for themselves. Otherwise it's not far from
) )indoctrination, or at best a confusing mishmash.
)It's Sunday school: tell a story, illustrate the story, kids go home
) )believing the story.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 13:41:19 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
Sune [re: racial characteristics]:
)Some of those bodily characteristics he describes in the lectures,
) )pointing out some of the patterns characterising them.
Peter S.:
)You don't really believe these "patterns" exist, do you?
Peter, he must believe it. As I pointed out before, in a post Sune did not
answer, the whole business is based on trying to explain things like why
Ethiopians aren't as good at "head-based thinking" as whites. Only if you
accept these racist stereotypes, is there any need for theories to explain
them, spiritual or otherwise! Only an audience who accepted these premises
would be sitting still for these lectures.
I'll ask again, Sune, do you think it's true Ethiopians (for instance) are
not as inclined to "head thinking" as whites? Do you think this is something
an individual Ethiopian must "transcend his race" in order to overcome?
Or perhaps you are going to tell me that the Ethiopian's "instinctual"
thinking (or some such) is preferable, and that whites need to overcome our
tendency to "head thinking," so whew, Steiner really liked Ethiopians, how
can we call him racist?
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 10:58:13 -0400
From: alice (alice javanet.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/III
[Alice responds from a naive perspective..]
No one answered my question about Steiner's medical training..(or I
missed it..)
Is it presumed that he received his medication instruction from the
angels?
I also wonder, in trying to follow the "dialogue" between Sune and
Peter, what did Steiner DO to help resist the nazis?
If he did not preach racism (and perhaps he did, it seems the
translation makes it nearly impossible to extract exactly what he meant.
convenient..) did he use his influence and power to help defeat the nazi
movement at the time? If he did not, did he feel guilty like other
protestant religious leaders who later regretted their lack of
leadership? Why wasn't he a martyr for the resistance if he believed in
karma?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 08:58:56 -0700
From: "jeff auen" (pacbay home.com)
Subject: Steiner and medical training
Steiner did not receive any medical training to my knowledge. He did not
have the Archangel Michael teach him either.
His first medical/educational "training" occurred while a tutor of a child
with severe learning problems (water on the brain and swelling). Through
observation and experimentation he taught this child to read and use his
cognitive skills and eventually brought him back to "normal". He went on to
become a doctor and if I recall died in WWI. His knowledge of human
physiology and anatomy came through private study and his "spiritual
observations" while observing people and "seeing" deficiencies". Instead of
reading pulses and interpreting illness like an acupuncturist, he was able
to see into the body (and his own) and understand its inner functions. He
never claimed to be a medical doctor or diagnosed people per se.
Jeff Auen
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 08:56:52 -0700
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: Weil on Iscador
Here is Dr. Andrew Weil's written comment on Iscador, from his web page:
) As I understand it, actress Suzanne Somers revealed this past March
) that she had been diagnosed with breast cancer a year earlier. She had
) a lumpectomy to remove the tumor, followed by a course of radiation
) therapy. However, Ms. Somers said that she had rejected chemotherapy in
) favor of Iscador, an extract of European mistletoe that she will inject
) into her abdomen every day for five years. Iscador is used as an
) adjunctive cancer treatment in Europe and Japan to help stimulate the
) immune system and increase the body's defenses. I would be nervous
) about relying on it as a primary treatment for breast cancer. Instead,
) I would lean toward doing the chemotherapy and using other treatments
) to reduce toxicity and increase general health. I might consider
) Iscador as an adjunctive treatment.
)
) When she first spoke publicly about her breast cancer and treatment
) decision, Ms. Somers erred in calling Iscador a "homeopathic"
) treatment. It's not. It's a total extract of European mistletoe (Viscum
) album), developed in 1922. The main proponents of Iscador are
) anthroposophic physicians, those who follow the tradition established
) by Austrian philosopher Rudolf Steiner a Christian mystic and student
) of Eastern as well as Western spiritual traditions. Anthroposophic
) medicine takes into account the spiritual and physical components of an
) illness. Steiner's followers have created a network of schools,
) hospitals, and nursing homes throughout Europe and the United States.
) Although classified as an alternative treatment, Iscador is now the
) most widely used cancer medicine in Germany today.
)
) In animal studies, Iscador has reduced tumor growth, and some results
) have suggested that it may help lessen the side effects of chemotherapy
) and radiation therapy. In the United States, the FDA requires that
) before clinical trials can be launched, researchers must file an
) Investigational New Drug (IND) application. So far, no such
) applications have been announced for Iscador.
)
) However, an article appearing in the May/June 2001 issue of Alternative
) Therapies in Health and Medicine is positive. It reported the results
) of a long-term German epidemiological study of 10,266 cancer patients.
) Of these, 1,668 were treated with Iscador, and the rest had either
) taken other mistletoe products or received no form of mistletoe
) treatment. The researchers looked at survival time, which turned out to
) be longer-roughly 40 percent longer-in the Iscador patients compared to
) the others. The study concluded that Iscador treatment can prolong
) survival time in cancer patients.
)
) When she explained her decision to reject chemotherapy in favor of
) Iscador, Ms. Somers said she had learned that both chemotherapy and
) Iscador would be 98 percent effective in preventing a breast cancer
) recurrence and said she chose Iscador in order to avoid the side
) effects of chemotherapy. I'm afraid that is misleading. To my
) knowledge, while chemotherapy for early breast cancer does
) substantially improve prospects for survival, in no case is that
) promise as high as 98 percent. However, I would still advise breast
) cancer patients to opt for chemotherapy when their physicians recommend
) it.
So Iscador is the most widely used cancer therapy in Germany today, and at
least some studies have shown it to be effective as an adjunct therapy.
Interesting.
One problem is that Anthroposophists tend to look at something like this
and say, "See! Anthroposophy works!" when it's really only one thing that
may have potential, while many other things, like biodynamic soil
preparations, have failed the test.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:21:02 -0700
From: "jeff auen" (pacbay home.com)
Subject: Re: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
I think I am going to throw some lava on the fire here . Victorian views of
culture and race as deplorable and indefensible. But from a metaphysical
point of view there is something else to consider which Steiner did and
didn't at times- body, soul and spirit. If a culture remains isolated as
many were before the 1850's or had limited contact with other more
"advanced" cultures, they would continue to function within the confines of
their customs, beliefs, genetics and environment. Desert nomads are not
going to take up long distance running in 110 degree heat as native rain
forest people in Amazon are not going to build pyramind cities like the
Incas or Aztecs who lived in a different terrain. When one culture either
invades, conquers or mixes with another, genetic, racial, and environmental
create change (like getting the idea to move away from subfreezing or dry
conditions) and this change can manifest in improved intelligence, different
ways of thinking, creativity, synthesis of culture as in pre-modern Spain,
Mexico or Japan. Thus race/culture is dramatically altered and thus engage
in any activity any other culture or "race" can. Case in point: the
emergence of Chinese and East Indian cultures in the tech field. And another
element comes into to play which most here will not buy but here it is:
there is a psycho-spiritual exchange as well which creates new thinking,
perceptual changes (as with the American and Mexican Indian cultures going
from nature orientation to adopting dominant culture values), cognitive
adjustments, etc.
This is simple and elementary anthropology.
Thus someone looking at race and culture from a spiritual and
anthropological point of view would see emerging changes through culture
and racial interactions but also dominant racial and envrionment traits if a
culture remains consistnet over time and unchanging like Tibet and large
rural portions of India and Africa.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 6:41 AM
Subject: RE: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
)
) Sune [re: racial characteristics]:
) )Some of those bodily characteristics he describes in the lectures,
) ) )pointing out some of the patterns characterising them.
)
) Peter S.:
) )You don't really believe these "patterns" exist, do you?
)
) Peter, he must believe it. As I pointed out before, in a post Sune did not
) answer, the whole business is based on trying to explain things like why
) Ethiopians aren't as good at "head-based thinking" as whites. Only if you
) accept these racist stereotypes, is there any need for theories to explain
) them, spiritual or otherwise! Only an audience who accepted these premises
) would be sitting still for these lectures.
)
) I'll ask again, Sune, do you think it's true Ethiopians (for instance) are
) not as inclined to "head thinking" as whites? Do you think this is
something
) an individual Ethiopian must "transcend his race" in order to overcome?
)
) Or perhaps you are going to tell me that the Ethiopian's "instinctual"
) thinking (or some such) is preferable, and that whites need to overcome
our
) tendency to "head thinking," so whew, Steiner really liked Ethiopians, how
) can we call him racist?
)
) Diana
)
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:41:37 -0700
From: "jeff auen" (pacbay home.com)
Subject: Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
No, Diana, I said, I agree with you. Waldorf is stalled in time and concept.
I genuinely think if Steiner were alive he would junk most of the rigid
rules and curriculum guidelines and create something relevant to the times.
There are profound insights and discoveries within the system but as I have
said, I am a revisionist not a blinded proponent. And I would encourage the
development of entirely new schools without using Waldorf "philosophy" but
emphasizes some of the goals- new social skills and outlooks, language arts,
focus on balancing the arts, humanities and sciences, teaching kids how to
fix things, garden, respect the earth, and so on. I would rather have a
child know how to fix a tire or rewire a light switch and garden than play
Nintendo or fast finger a TV remote. My mother taught me how to sew though I
don't but I can fix nearly any tear or button coming loose (rather than
throwing something away).
I will try to back up some things I see as good but will try to defend the
indefensible. My point is: encourage and support creative and independent
thinking. This apparently is not cherished fully in Waldorf and in
conventional education or our society in general. Everyone wants crisp
little answers to questions and often cannot say, well, I really do not
know, lets explore this further.
jeff
)
) Or are you saying you agree with me that these alternatives should be
) presented in some kind of critical framework? ("Critical" perhaps being
too
) strong a term; I'm not suggesting third graders, for instance, should
) "criticize" Bible stories - only that if you want to do a "comparative
) religion" type thing, you can't present them as universal truth, but must
) explain that there are many world religions.)
)
) If you would like this approach, surely you understand that it is not
) Waldorf? In Waldorf, the children must hear these stories, the stories
must
) "live in" them, must be felt by the children to be "true," because they
are
) supposed to represent a universal stage in the children's consciousness
that
) corresponds - or so Waldorf, due to its parochialism, believes - to a
stage
) thought to be part of humanity's development as a whole.
)
) All that is supposedly ruined if the teacher says, "These are
) Judeo-Christian beliefs, now the Muslims, they tell a different story." To
) step back that much from it, look at it in relation to something else,
would
) be "intellectualizing" the children (basically it would mean they might
) *not* accept the stories as true).
)
) Which did you mean, Jeff?
)
) Diana
)
)
) )The kids live it and breathe it, copy it in their books, illustrate )it,
) )embellish the borders nicely, and that's that.
)
) )If you're going to do this "open-mindedness" thing, you also have to
) )encourage the kids to develop - or at least not squash - the skills to
) )sort things out for themselves. Otherwise it's not far from
) ) )indoctrination, or at best a confusing mishmash.
)
) )It's Sunday school: tell a story, illustrate the story, kids go home
) ) )believing the story.
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:52:44 -0700
From: "jeff auen" (pacbay home.com)
Subject: Re: Religion and Mysticism and the truth part 5?
Nice try. I read most of this during and just after college for my work on
comparative mysticism and religion at UW Madison and Wayne State in
Michigan. . I have also read the Secret Doctrine and much of Blavaksty's
works, the Bible, the Upanishads, much of Manly Palmer Hall works including
his opus written when he was 26, most of Alan Watts, need I go on. A scholar
I am not, but if I find value in something I read on and learn more. There
is much in Steiner that is uninque, interesting, befuddling and innovative,
just my cup of tea. Organizations are not.
)
) Su: For a part-timer, you sure sound like a full-timer
) (Anthroposophist/Waldorfer) to me!!
) Been to the "Branch" lately?
)
)
) It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 17:06:53 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Steiner and medical training
Surely this post was a joke? Not even sure it's worth replying to, maybe I
should just shake my head in amazement?
Jeff:
)Steiner did not receive any medical training to my knowledge. He did )not
)have the Archangel Michael teach him either.
There you go. He didn't have medical training (though a few days ago you
referred to him as having "not much" medical training).
Now what are you bothering with this for:
)His first medical/educational "training"
but he didn't have any, remember?
)occurred while a tutor of a child with severe learning problems (water )on
)the brain and swelling).
(cough, cough) as Sarina would say. Tutoring is not medical training. Hello?
It's not "educational training," either; as long as we're on the subject,
Steiner didn't have educational training either. None. Tutoring one child
isn't educational training. Guess I'm repeating myself.
)Through observation and experimentation he taught this child to read )and
)use his cognitive skills and eventually brought him back to )"normal". He
)went on to become a doctor
Are you for real? Are you hoping it will somehow come across that he was a
doctor even though we have clearly established: STEINER WAS NOT A DOCTOR.
)His knowledge of human physiology and anatomy came through private )study
)and his "spiritual observations" while observing people and )"seeing"
)deficiencies".
Coughing again. I don't trust myself or family members to medical care by
someone who got their knowledge of human physiology and anatomy through
"private study." (Will just leave the "spiritual observation" thing alone.)
Do you think we are stupid, or are you just this gullible? I just can't
believe you would write this post trying to make Steiner sound like sort of,
kind of a doctor, or maybe acting a lot like a doctor, having "knowledge of
physiology and anatomy," probably no better than most of us got in 10th
grade biology, even having the gall to refer to his "medical and educational
training" when the bald fact is he didn't have any!
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 17:22:23 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
)No, Diana, I said, I agree with you. Waldorf is stalled in time and
) )concept.
Jeff, you're a slippery one. You still didn't answer my question. You speak
in generalities about "revisionism," bringing Waldorf up to date. All the
stuff you speak of below is exactly what Waldorf advertises, and exactly
what most of the prospective parents here thought our kids were getting when
we put them in Waldorf (encourage creative thinking; respect the earth;
learn to sew; avoid Nintendo). Do you write Waldorf brochures?
If you want to throw out the immersion-only mode of teaching anthroposophic
concepts through appeal to the senses - story, song, dance, puppets, music -
and give kids a chance to put things in perspective, analyze, compare, etc.,
then you are throwing out the most cherished Steinerism in Waldorf - the
basis of a Waldorf elementary education - that children under 14 should
basically not use their brains. You'd be fired if you were a Waldorf
teacher.
I really don't think this is what you are advocating. And I think that's why
you won't say so. I get the feeling I am being "agreed" with to end that
line of discussion?
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 12:36:54 -0700
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: Religion and Mysticism and the truth part 5?
jeff auen wrote:
) Nice try. I read most of this during and just after college for my work on
) comparative mysticism and religion at UW Madison
Sharon:
Was Joanna Guthrie's son a teacher of yours at UW Madison? Just interested
because I unearthed a lot of information about them while researching Steiner.
Joanna had a strong connection to my neck of the woods, she owned a farm here
and was also an influence in the founding of the Waldorf school that duped our
family. She started, as you must know, The Ovens of Brittany in Madison which
finally closed their doors a few months ago after 30 years. Joanna died a
homeless, mentally unsound person about a year or so ago, some say from the
spiritual path she chose. Some of the old timers here in SW Wisconsin really
had a problem with her. Anyway, her son is a teacher at UW Mad. philosophy
dept.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:03:04 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Steiner and medical training
)Steiner did not receive any medical training to my knowledge. He did not
)have the Archangel Michael teach him either.
)His first medical/educational "training" occurred while a tutor of a child
)with severe learning problems (water on the brain and swelling).
Debra:
Hydrocephalus does not always mean "severe learning problems" exist. At
least 2/3's of this population have at least normal intelligence. I have
always been suspect of Steiner's claim that he took a severe learning
disabled child and prepared him for college using Waldorf techniques. I'd
say that this child was just a victim of his times.
Through
)observation and experimentation he taught this child to read and use his
)cognitive skills and eventually brought him back to "normal". He went on to
)become a doctor and if I recall died in WWI. His knowledge of human
)physiology and anatomy came through private study and his "spiritual
)observations" while observing people and "seeing" deficiencies". Instead of
)reading pulses and interpreting illness like an acupuncturist, he was able
)to see into the body (and his own) and understand its inner functions. He
)never claimed to be a medical doctor or diagnosed people per se.
)
Debra:
See? This makes no sense at all. Someone with severe learning disabilities
just can't be "brought back to normal." Just another snake oil treatment
story where the facts just don't match Steiner's claim.
I worked in Special Ed for 13 years...
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 18:22:55 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
Jeff wrote a long post about how cultures differ from one another,
summarized as "elementary anthropology."
The missing pieces are why any of this would have anything to do with
physical characteristics of a race of people, rather than just environment
and culture:
)Desert nomads are not going to take up long distance running in 110 )degree
)heat as native rain forest people in Amazon are not going to )build
)pyramind cities
Right. Desert nomads do not run long distances in 100 degree heat because it
is too hot. Not because their race is not physically or spiritually inclined
toward long distance running.
And yes, if they are conquered by or start intermarrying with another people
who really get into long distance running, some may become long distance
runners despite the heat . . . I don't see where making something karmic or
spiritual out of it adds to our understanding.
Diana
)Thus someone looking at race and culture from a spiritual and
)anthropological point of view would see emerging changes through )culture
)and racial interactions but also dominant racial and )envrionment traits if
)a culture remains consistnet over time and )unchanging like Tibet and
)large rural portions of India and Africa.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 17:31:06 -0500
From: "Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative" (rbc supranet.com)
Subject: RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
Hi everybody,
sorry to drag the list through all this. I thought Sune was on the list last
February when I went over these questions in detail in response to Detlef. I
will try one more time to explain what seems inexplicable to Sune.
) The first part of this central introducing 'gong-gong' of the article by
) Peter at PLANS' site, its description of the 'plot' and 'personages' of
) the article, is:
)
) (Quote:)
)
) 'In June 1910 Rudolf Steiner, the founder of anthroposophy, began a
) speaking tour of Norway with a lecture to a large and attentive audience
) in Oslo. The lecture was titled "The Mission of Individual European
) National Souls in Relation to Nordic-Germanic Mythology." In the Oslo
) lecture and throughout his Norwegian tour Steiner presented his theory
) of "national souls" (Volksseelen in German, Steiner's native tongue) and
) paid particular attention to the mysterious wonders of the "Nordic
) spirit.
)
) "The "national souls" of Northern and Central Europe were, Steiner
) explained, components of the "germanic-nordic sub-race," the world's
) most spiritually advanced ethnic group, which was in turn the vanguard
) of the highest of five historical "root races." This superior fifth root
) race, Steiner told his Oslo audience, was naturally the "Aryan race."
)
) (End quote)
)
)
) With almost noone any more having access to the lectures in question,
) that were published in English (second edition) now more than 30 years
) ago and since long out of print, not even the author himself having read
) them when he in detail described their content, seemingly paraphrasing
) Steiner, the author takes a shot at it and instead makes up the plot as
) a fiction out of his fantasy, in its paraphrasing of Steiner making it
) stand out as a direct description of what Steiner actually said in the
) lectures.
Sune and I are talking about two different things. He is referring to a book
published in 1918, and I was referring to a lecture given in 1910. Those two
things are closely related (the former is based on the latter), but they are
not identical. Even so, my description of the lecture is, contrary to Sune's
strenuous objections, well supported by the book.
) I have now put up the full lecture series referred to at
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits.htm as a
) source for comparison with what Staudenmaier writes.
I once again urge anyone who finds Sune's arguments here compelling to
consult this version, the book version, in order to check my paragraph
against Steiner's text.
) In June 1910, Steiner held a lecture series in Norway. But - as far as
) can be determined by the overview of lectures held by Steiner in June
) 1910, found at http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/lectures.txt;bytes=42372-53136
) and http://www.elib.com/Steiner/CV/index.php3?cvy=1910-198 as also from
) the published lecture series themselves, discussed by Staudenmaier - the
) whole series was held in Oslo (Christiania), not as a speaking tour
) around Norway.
Everything I wrote in my paragraph was based on secondary sources, several
of which do not agree with Sune's claim. If Sune can explain what on earth
this has to do with either my credibility or the substantive dispute between
us, I will gladly look into the matter and try to find out why there are
differing accounts of Steiner's 1910 itinerary. But it is difficult to
imagine why this would be important to anybody.
) Staudenmaier:
) The lecture was titled "The Mission of Individual European National
) Souls in Relation to Nordic-Germanic Mythology."
)
) Comment:
) According to both the original and the English translation, that also is
) untrue.
)
) The lecture series (not lecture) was entitled " Die mission einzelner
) Volksseelen im Zusammanhang mit der germanisch-nordischen Mythologie";
) "The mission of single folk souls (in general, not European National
) souls) in relation to Nordic-Germanic mythology".
Sune is once again confusing the book with the spoken lecture. My source for
the title of the lecture, as I have explained before, was Hans Mandl's book
Der Geist des Nordens (Mandl was a Norwegian anthroposophist); after Detlef
pointed out the one word discrepancy (i.e. "European") I double checked
Mandl, and he does indeed give the title exactly as I reported it. There is
no reason to assume that Mandl was mistaken; it seems just as likely that
Steiner changed the title for the 1918 published version. Even if Mandl was
mistaken, the error is his, not mine. In order to avoid confusion, I deleted
the word "European" from the English version of this paragraph months ago; I
believe the updated version is now posted at the PLANS website. On the
matter of how to translate "Volksseelen", Sune is blowing smoke; anybody who
cares to can go down to the local library or bookstore and pick up an
English-German dictionary to find out whether "Volk" means "folk" or
"nation", particularly in compound words.
) Staudenmaier:
) In the Oslo lecture and throughout his Norwegian tour Steiner presented
) his theory of "national souls" (Volksseelen in German, Steiner's native
) tongue) and paid particular attention to the mysterious wonders of the
) "Nordic spirit".
)
) Comment:
) The context and subtext of the sentence hints that Steiner should have
) talked about the "Nordic spirit" in a similar sense as the Nazis. That
) is contrary to the truth.
Only some Nazis celebrated the "Nordic spirit" (in fact there was a raging
debate between Nazi "Nordicists" and "Germanicists", along with a minority
of fence-sitting "Aryanists"). But my sentence doesn't address the Nazis in
any way; I discussed that connection at great length later in the article,
which I guess is what Sune means by the "context". But that context is
thoroughly substantiated, and shows that Sune doesn't know what he's talking
about when he says that the striking similarites between Steiner's nordicist
leanings and those of one faction of the Nazis are "contrary to the truth".
) During his life, Steiner on different occasions in books and lectures
) dealt with a great part of the discussed themes of his time. In the
) lecture series Steiner systematically discussed one of the themes that
) was a central part of the intellectual discussion from the last part of
) the 19th century up to after the middle of the 20th century, that of the
) nature of peoples, races and nations.
)
) In the series, Steiner gives a sketch ot the psychology of peoples in a
) context of a discussion of the arising and fading differentiation of
) humanity into races, cultures, nations and individuals.
Sune needs to do a bit more reading into early 20th century anthropology;
the notion of a "psychology of peoples" was abandoned by many as patently
racist before Steiner latched on to it. It would also be nice if
anthroposophists and their defenders would bother to read just a little of
their own anthropologists' work, starting with Richard Karutz.
) What Staudenmaier implies is that Steiner in the lectures should argue
) for the superiority of Germans over other peoples on the basis of
) teutonic mythology in the vein of the Nazis. That is the complete
) opposite of the truth.
I don't know how Sune, whose knowledge of Nazi racial theories is limited
and partial (on this list he has made several completely erroneous claims
about the Nazis' use of the term "Aryan") could possibly be in a position to
make an informed judgement on this question. But if I have understood him
correctly, he doesn't need to know much about the various Nazi versions of
teutonic mythology, since he simply denies that Steiner argued for the
superiority of Germans over other peoples. It is this sort of denial that
makes me question his grasp of basic anthroposophical concepts, not to
mention his reading comprehension skills.
) What Steiner points to, constituting the culmination of the lecture
) series (lecture 11
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-4.htm), is
) how Nordic mythology describes the character of Vidar, pointing to
) Christ, and how a similar experience of Christ as that experienced by
) Paul will become ever more common from the middle of the 20th century
) and onwards. He also describes how
)
) "... the larger nations no less than the smaller isolated groups have
) each their appointed mission and have to contribute their share to the
) whole. Often the smallest national fragments have most important
) contributions to make because it is given to them to preserve and
) nurture old and new motifs in the soul-life.
)
) Thus, even though we have made this dangerous topic the subject of our
) lectures, it will serve to foster the basic sentiment of a community of
) soul amongst all those who are united under the banner of
) anthroposophical thought and feeling and of Anthroposophical ideals."
)
) "What is given to all mankind must be given; it may, it is true,
) originate in a particular region, but it must be given to the whole of
) humanity. We do not differentiate between East and West. We accept with
) deep gratitude the surpassing grandeur of the primeval culture of the
) holy Rishis in its true form. We accept with gratitude the Persian
) culture, the Egypto-Chaldean and Graeco-Latin cultures, and with the
) same objectivity we also accept the cultural heritage of Europe. We are
) compelled by the needs of the situation to present the facts as they
) really are.
)
) If we incorporate the total contributions which each religion has made
) to the civilizing process of mankind into what we recognize to be the
) common property of mankind, then the more we do this, the more we are
) acting in accordance with the Christ principle."
)
) "Spiritual Science, as we shall realize more and more clearly, will
) bring an end to the divisions of mankind. Therefore now is the right
) moment to learn to know the Folk Souls, because the province of
) Spiritual Science is not to promote antagonism between them, but to call
) upon them to work in harmonious cooperation."
I fail to see the relevance of these quotes to our dispute over Steiner's
racial classification scheme. I am also amused by Sune's obliviousness to
the function of similar passages about "harmonious cooperation" in Nazi
discussions of "greater and lesser nations". I get the sense that Sune
thinks the Nazis' public discourse was all about hatred and oppression. He
is very much mistaken.
) 1. Steiner did not explain that the "national souls" of Northern and
) Central Europe were components of the "germanic-nordic sub-race", which
) was the terminology used in the Theosophical tradition. The truth, being
) contrary to what Staudenmaier writes, is that Steiner in the lectures
) not once mentions the word "sub-races" and much less the concept of the
) "germanic-nordic subrace".
That is accurate as far as the book version goes, as I already noted
yesterday. There Steiner refers to the "Germanic peoples", not "sub-races".
Again, I don't understand why Sune is so confident that this was also the
case in the spoken lectures; surely Sune Nordwall is not a more reliable
source about what Steiner said in June 1910 than the sources I consulted.
But I am willing to grant that my claim that Steiner used this term on that
occasion is unprovable. I do not see, however, how this could count as a
significant shortcoming in my description; "sub-races" and "peoples" are
synonyms in this context.
) Instead he points to how development after the time of the mythical
) "Atlantis", ending with the last glacial ages some 10 000 year B.C.
) cannot be described in terms of "races" and "subraces", but must be
) considered in terms of the successive development of a number of
) central, consecutive, ever more global cultures, out of people living in
) geographical areas constituting nodal points in this development. (See
) also http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/overcoming1.htm)
Steiner says nothing of the sort in the text Sune points to, but we've
already been over that ground. I feel compelled once again to wonder about
Sune's reading abilities.
) How distorted the description by Staudenmaier is, is shown by how
) Steiner in lecture 2
) (http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-2.htm)
) describes the unsurpassed character of the philosophy of, not a
) "nordic-germanic subrace", but the first post-glacial Indian
) civilisation, preceding our present cultural epoch with 8 000 years;
)
) " ...the uniqueness of Indian philosophy [...], as creative thought
) expressive of the inner life, is unsurpassed by any other people, and
) it also explains the inner perfection of thought so characteristic of
) the Indian culture."
Sune seems to be having trouble with the concept of comparison lately.
Steiner said lots of nice things about other sub-races/peoples/cultural
epochs, which didn't stop him from asserting that the Germans were the
nicest of all.
) He also in lecture 8
) (http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-8.htm)
) describes how the people of ancient India had developed to a high degree
) in a way only reached later by "the inhabitants of all the countries
) lying further West":
)
) "The peoples of ancient India had reached a high stage of evolution
) before they developed the 'I'. In all other aspects of evolution they
) had made great strides. Behind them lay a very long period of
) development, but they had lived through it in a kind of dim
) consciousness. Then the 'I' entered in - they awoke to consciousness of
) the 'I'. Amongst the Indians this came comparatively late, at a time
) when the people was already to a certain extent very mature, when they
) had already undergone what the Teutonic peoples still had to undergo
) when they had developed their ego. Bear this carefully in mind."
Yes, the process of racial advance occurs in chronological succession,
according to Steiner. None of this in any way contradicts his annointment of
the Germans as the pinnacle of that process. Sune evidently missed the pages
in this book where Steiner decribes how the Germans take consciousness and
the 'I' to new and unprecedented levels.
) The degree of distortion in Staudenmaiers description also is made clear
) by how Steiner, in lecture 7
) (http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-7.htm),
) describes the Time Spirit of our present (European) cultural epoch since
) the Middle Ages, not as "the most advanced" or "superior" Time Spirit,
) but as belonging
)
) "... to the great leading Time Spirits, equally with those who were the
) great directing Time Spirits during the Egypto-Chaldean-Babylonian, Old
) Persian and Indian epochs."
Yes, the leading Time Spirits all stand at an equal spot within the cosmic
hierarchy (that is, they each hold the same rank), but their respective
peoples/nations obviously do not. Sune has forgotten that the Germanic Time
Spirit, in Steiner's narrative, long ago took over the reins of spiritual
evolution from his predecessor.
) 3. In the lecture series, the translator of the 1970 English edition
) mistakenly in 2 instances in the text (lecture 6 at
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-6.htm and
) 7 at
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-7.htm)
) mistranslated Steiner's reference to what during the first part of the
) 20th century was considered to be the five 'main races' of mankind with
) the Theosophical term 'root races', a term that Steiner stopped using
) the year before (1909) in ever more distancing himself from the
) Theosophical tradition.
)
) )From the context of these instances it is clear that the translation of
) "main races" with "root races" is a mistake and that Steiner in
) mentioning the concept of the "five main races" of mankind, does not
) refer to the concept of "root races" used in the Theosophical tradition.
Sune is suffering from a peculiar schizophrenia on this question. Just last
week he himself asserted, while discussing a 1909 Steiner lecture, that
"main races" and "root races" were the same thing. Now he thinks they're
entirely different. He was right the first time; Steiner used the terms
interchangeably. In any case, Steiner uses the term "root races" throughout
this book, not just in two instances. The English version Sune and I are
debating is, by the way, the authorized 1970 translation.
) In a lecture half a year before the lecture series discussed by
) Staudenmaier, Steiner described how the concept of "races" in a proper
) sense in his view not can be used for the time since the end of the last
) glacial ages; following the time of the mythical "Atlantis"
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/overcoming1.htm).
Repetition won't make this true. The lecture clearly says that racial
categories will not be "overcome" until the "sixth epoch". Perhaps Sune's
edition of GA 117 is missing a few pages.
) Staudenmaier:
) This superior fifth root race, Steiner told his Oslo audience, was
) naturally the "Aryan race."
)
) Comment:
) Again, this is a total fantasy by Staudenmaier. In the lecture series,
) Steiner not once mentions neither "root race", nor "fifth root race",
) nor "superior fifth root race".
Readers can easily see for themsleves that "root races" are "mentioned"
throughout the book. A total fantasy, it seems to me, means something that
is made up out of thin air, with no discernible relation to its purported
basis. Since Steiner indisputably names the "Aryans" as one of the "root
races" he discusses, it is hard to see how my description could count as a
total fantasy. What really irks Sune is that I have additionally noted the
superior status Steiner attaches to "the Aryans" in this lecture. On that
matter, it is at least conceivable that another reader might disagree with
my understanding of the text (though I suspect it would take quite a bit of
willful blindness to do so); but pretending that Steiner doesn't even use
these terms is pure silliness. If I weren't such an open-minded guy, I'd say
that this alone disqualifies Sune from serious discussion of these lectures.
) In the untruthful phantasy sentence, Staudenmaier explicitly implies
) that Steiner should have talked about "Aryans" as the "superior fifth
) root race" in the lectures, in a way Staudenmaier then tries to connect
) to National Socialist ideology. Reading the lecture series, it is clear
) that few things are further from the truth.
Aside from the fact that it is impossible to "explicitly imply" anything at
all, I didn't "imply" this, I said it outright. And yes, I then went on to
connect Steiner's theories to their National Socialist counterparts. In
order to evaluate whether this latter connection is a figment of my
imagination, one would need to go beyond merely reading Steiner's lectures,
something I have urged Sune to try on more than one occasion.
) Only once in the 11 lectures (lecture 6
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-6.htm)
) does Steiner mention 'Aryans', referring to "the peoples of Asia Minor
) and Europe whom we regard as members of the Caucasian race." The main
) thing that he has to say about Caucasians as a "race", in a general
) simplified way referring to their external, physical character, is:
)
) "The particular task of the Caucasian race is to find the way to the
) spirit through the senses, for this race is orientated chiefly towards
) the sense-world.".
)
) This point is about as much as Steiner has to say about "Aryans" in the
) one lecture of the 11 in the series where he mentions the term "aryan".
That's because he spends most of his time on the individual components of
the "Aryan" race, namely its constituent "peoples". These are, after all,
lectures about "people souls", not "race souls".
) Contrary to Staudenmaier's distorted assertions, Steiner in the lecture
) series does not promote any view of an "Aryan race" as "superior" but
) (lecture 5
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-5.htm)
) warns against the dangers facing people who cultivate the development of
) clairvoyance with erroneous methods, in terms of developing erroneous
) understanding of the nature of "races" (not leading to an experience and
) understanding of Christ, the description of which constitutes the
) culmination of the series in the 11th lecture
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-11.htm but
) to other experiences and views):
)
) "The abnormal Spirits of Form [normal Spirits of Form in the
) Jewish-Christian tradition are called Powers. According to Steiner
) abnormal Mights are responsible for the differentiation of humanity into
) 'races'] who are really Spirits of Movement [Mights] and who appear as
) hideous spiritual Beings on the astral plane also have their subordinate
) spirits. They are the spirits that weave and live in that which is
) associated with the genesis of the human races, and that in man is
) associated with that element that we have characterised as the
) Earth-bound, as that element which is associated with reproduction and
) the like.
)
) These beings, indeed this whole domain is one of the most variegated and
) dangerous of the astral world and - this is the appropriate moment to
) call attention to it - it is the one most easily found by those who
) attain to clairvoyant vision by erroneous methods. The hosts of these
) spirits who are associated with the propagation of the race, who serve
) that purpose, are those most easily perceived.
)
) Many a one who has entered into the occult realm prematurely or in the
) wrong way has had to pay dearly for having encountered this host of
) spiritual beings without the harmonizing influence of the other
) spiritual Beings."
)
) In lecture 11
) (http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-11.htm),
) the final lecture of the series, he again warns:
)
) "There will be no greater danger than the tendency to cling to the old
) clairvoyance which has not been permeated with the new forces, a danger
) which might tempt man to remain content with the manifestations of the
) old astral clairvoyance of primeval times, such as the soul pictures of
) the Fenris Wolf." (portraying the anti-Christian Ahrimanic forces
) feeding on the living substance of the etheric body of man)
What does any of this have to do with the question of Aryan supremacy?
) Read in the light of history, the development of "Aryanism" and the
) following development of National Socialism, as an outdated cult of the
) Nordic hero with magical-ritual means, the words in the final lecture in
) the series stand out as prophetic, in a way that Staudenmaier in the
) article tries to make stand out as the opposite.
I cannot fathom what Sune is trying to say here. I don't find anything in
the passges just quoted that is related to Aryanism, much less in a way that
would distinguish Steiner's version of Aryanism from the several Nazi
versions. Perhaps Sune could explain what he means.
) In its probably unsurpassed untruthfulness at PLANS' site, the
) introduction casts a shadow over everything else Staudenmaier writes on
) anthroposophy, not least his keeping the untruths in the article for a
) year after having had the possibility to check them out against the
) published lectures themselves as well as more or less later also against
) the original text in German.
I still haven't seen the German text, but I'd like to. Could you perhaps
send me a photocopy, Sune? Or post it on your website?
) Seeing with which light-hearted carelessness Peter makes up lies about
) Steiner and anthroposophy, as demonstrated by his introducing
) description of the plot of his article 'Anthroposophy and Ecofascism',
) and then mixes it with what may or may not be more true assertions on
) the subject he comments on, in a way that impossible for the general
) reader of it to look through without closer study, makes me suspicious
) of everything else he may have to say say about anthroposophy and
) Steiner, and his judgements on them, down to the last comma, that no
) amount of references can made credible, making me want to read every
) lecture or reference he mentions myself, before knowing what to think
) about it.
)
) I think everybody else should too.
Everybody ought to do so in any case, of course, regardless of their
personal opinion of me. It is irresponsible to take any author at her or his
word without looking into to the conext oneself, when possible. I very much
hope list members will follow Sune's advice and read my article as well as
the texts Sune and others have posted in order to determine whether I have
"made up lies" about Steiner's works.
) The keeping of the conscious untruths in the article for so long matches
) the conscious keeping of the admitted untruthful description of the
) basis of Waldorf education at the site of PLANS by the main webmaster of
) the site and main moderator of this list; Dan Dugan, for lack of a
) truthful description of WE that stands out as equally weird.
)
) In this keeping of conscious untruths in their material at the site of
) PLANS, Peter Staudenmaier and Dan Dugan stand out as brothers in spirit.
I am still learning about Waldorf pedagogy, but I haven't seen anything in
Dan's descriptions of it that strikes me as "weird", and I have no idea what
Sune means with "admitted untruths". In regard to those areas of
anthroposophy that I do know well, Dan's command of the material is superior
to that of most of the anthroposophists I've encountered. I am thus
flattered by the comparison.
On Sune's larger point: In order to know whether someone else has spread
"conscious untruths", one needs to know what the other person actually
believes to be true. So far Sune has not suggested, much less shown, that I
believe the contrary of what I have written. His conclusions are thus quite
overdrawn; even if every assertion he has made here were accurate, they
still would not support the claim that I have been "lying", that is, telling
deliberate falsehoods. To me this indicates a fundamental misunderstanding
of historical scholarship. Historians make mistakes all the time; it comes
with the territory. Later scholars can then build on earlier insights while
discarding failed, inadequate, or disproved lines of argument. I would be
absolutely delighted to find my work on anthroposophy subjected to that sort
of serious scrutiny one day, and it would be surprising indeed if it did not
turn out to contain any number of mistakes. But Sune hasn't undertaken any
such project; he has simply collected his prejudices against my
interpretation of Steiner and added some pointless invective about my
honesty. Not a particularly edifying approach to debate, but then perhaps I
expect too much from anthroposophists.
Happy May Day to all. I'll be out of town for the next few days but will
return to the fray at the end of the week.
Peter Staudenmaier
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 00:36:01 +0200
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/III
Alice Klinge wrote:
) ... in trying to follow the "dialogue" between Sune and
) Peter, what did Steiner DO to help resist the nazis?
)
) If he did not preach racism (and perhaps he did, it seems the
) translation makes it nearly impossible to extract exactly what he meant.
) convenient..) did he use his influence and power to help defeat the nazi
) movement at the time?
In 1919 Steiner founded the Threefold Social Order
(http://www.threefolding.freeuk.com/) with help from
coactivists from the middle classes and workers' movement (v.a. USPD).
He was publicly attacked by Adolf Hitler in the Volkischer Beobachter
(Folk Observer) newspaper (March 1921), who denounced the Threefold
Social movement as a Jewish strategy to undermine the normal world
outlook of the people.
In 1919 Steiner also warned against the so-called Protocols of the Wise
of Zion, on whose anti-Semitic machinations Adolf Hitler was to draw for
certain parts of "Mein Kampf" in 1924. 1919 was the year Hitler joined
the German Workers' Party, whose name was changed to National Socialist
German Workers Party the following year; 1920. The following year; 1921,
he made the party accept accept him as formal leader of the party with
dictatorial powers. (http://www.stokesey.demon.co.uk/wwii/ahitler.html)
In 1920 and again in 1923, Steiner warned in lectures about the
black-magical misuse of the Swastika. (1920 was the year Hitler chose
the Swastika as the Nazi party emblem.)
In 1922 Steiner was warned by the Munich Anthroposophist, Hans
Buchenbacher that he was listed 8th or 9th amongst those prominent
Germans targeted for assassination. Buchenbacher and his friends quickly
organized a sort of private bodyguard whilst the venue agency provided
additional heavyweights, as was usual around the time of the Munich hall
assassinations. On the 15th May 1922 Steiner had just given a lecture in
the Four Seasons Hotel in Munich when radical Right militants mobbed
Steiner.
"A brief fight broke out between attackers and supporters, throughout
which the policemen present did nothing. The following morning Steiner
had to leave Munich secretly. He was never able to go there again, as it
had become too dangerous. Thereafter until his death his work on German
soil was confined to Stuttgart, and not in public at that, as other
powers were active in Germany by then." (Goetheanum Weekly, 1993)
Steiner died 30 March 1925, few months after Hitler was released from
prison 20 December 1924 for 'exemplary behaviour' (after 8 months there,
having been sentenced to 5 years,
http://www.hitler.org/writings/prison/) for his Beer Hall coup in Munich
in November 1923. During his time in prison, Hitler wrote 'Mein Kampf'.
The Dragon had just started showing his face when Steiner died.
Regards,
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell
biology, EU, globalization and social threefolding
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 17:47:11 -0500
From: "Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative" (rbc supranet.com)
Subject: RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
Alice Klinge wrote:
) I also wonder, in trying to follow the "dialogue" between Sune and
) Peter, what did Steiner DO to help resist the nazis?
)
) If he did not preach racism (and perhaps he did, it seems the
) translation makes it nearly impossible to extract exactly what he meant.
) convenient..) did he use his influence and power to help defeat the nazi
) movement at the time? If he did not, did he feel guilty like other
) protestant religious leaders who later regretted their lack of
) leadership? Why wasn't he a martyr for the resistance if he believed in
) karma?
Hi Alice, I've only got time for a quick repsonse. When Steiner died in 1925
the Nazis were still a small movement that few people took seriously, so we
can't really expect Steiner to have resisted them himself. After the Nazis
came to power in 1933, organized anthroposophy faced several choices in how
to respond to the new regime. I cover some of that history in my articles on
the PLANS site; in my view, most German anthroposophists would count as
passive collaborators for much of the Third Reich, while a good chunk of the
anthro leadership falls into the category of active collaborators for much
of that time. The one significant exception was Jewish anthroposophists. I
am unaware of a single example of a German anthroposophist joining the
resistance; in the words of the anthroposophist Jens Heisterkamp, "the
anthroposophist movement did not produce any members of the Resistance."
This is in stark contrast to several other small alternative spiritual
groups who braved the Nazis with open defiance. As for post-war
anthroposophy, the record is pretty dismal. Far from the kind of
soul-searching that you point to within the protestant churches,
anthroposophy closed ranks around their own myth of having been hounded by
the Nazis from 1933 onward. Some post-war anthros have even tried to
"explain" the Third Reich as a necessary episode in the esoteric development
of humanity. I have no opinions on what this all means in light of the
doctrine of karma. Hope this is helpful,
Peter S.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 21:25:53 -0700
From: "jeff auen" (pacbay home.com)
Subject: Re: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
Sorry this was actually received. It was a draft and I put in my out box to
work on and elaborate on later. It was very incomplete and unfinished. This
is a very complex issue and I do not want to throw out abstractions about
such an important subject. Due to computer problems and a shutdown, it was
sent unknowingly.
jeff .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
) Jeff wrote a long post about how cultures differ from one another,
) summarized as "elementary anthropology."
)
) The missing pieces are why any of this would have anything to do with
) physical characteristics of a race of people, rather than just environment
) and culture:
)
) )Desert nomads are not going to take up long distance running in 110
)degree
) )heat as native rain forest people in Amazon are not going to )build
) )pyramind cities
)
) Right. Desert nomads do not run long distances in 100 degree heat because
it
) is too hot. Not because their race is not physically or spiritually
inclined
) toward long distance running.
)
) And yes, if they are conquered by or start intermarrying with another
people
) who really get into long distance running, some may become long distance
) runners despite the heat . . . I don't see where making something karmic
or
) spiritual out of it adds to our understanding.
) Diana
)
)
)
)
)
) )Thus someone looking at race and culture from a spiritual and
) )anthropological point of view would see emerging changes through
)culture
) )and racial interactions but also dominant racial and )envrionment traits
if
) )a culture remains consistnet over time and )unchanging like Tibet and
) )large rural portions of India and Africa.
)
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 21:36:02 -0700
From: "jeff auen" (pacbay home.com)
Subject: Re: Steiner and medical training
I must take him at his word on this In this child's case, it did lead to
severe learning problems. The child apparently could not concentrate for
more than a few minutes at a time without headaches or loss of concentration
and could not absorb information or process normally.
) Debra:
)
) See? This makes no sense at all. Someone with severe learning disabilities
) just can't be "brought back to normal." Just another snake oil treatment
) story where the facts just don't match Steiner's claim.
)
) I worked in Special Ed for 13 years...
Jeff: What makes sense is that either he lied completely (which I doubt) or
his intuitive and observational insights and methods worked. And severe
learning difficulties may have been differently defined then, though I used
this term, not him. From the description of his condition it would be
labeled as such. The definition may not be transferred to this child exactly
but this is not the point. If this child could not learn, had major
difficulties in cognitive processing and memory, I would say he was in
trouble!.
Jeff
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 22:08:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Steiner and medical training
) ) Debra:
) )
) ) See? This makes no sense at all. Someone with
) severe learning disabilities
) ) just can't be "brought back to normal." Just
) another snake oil treatment
) ) story where the facts just don't match Steiner's
) claim.
) )
) ) I worked in Special Ed for 13 years...
)
dottie-
When I had read the story about this young man and how
Steiner had worked with him and a major change had
occurred, it changed the way I looked at how I might
be able to help teens with these types of problems.
Would it be possible that I too one day would be able
to work with young people who others had given up on
and make that kind of a difference? That is the
running theme in my life that he has inspired with his
work.
I think most people think like you do Debra in the
sense that certain things are hopeless and that is
that. However you have made great strides with your
own sons and I am sure there were many doubters along
the way.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 18:56:49 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: The cultural xenophobia of PLANS [Re: Dissolving confusion]
Gary, you wrote,
)I only request that given the very public nature of this list, and given the
)wide spectrum of debating experiences of its participants (and search engine
)users), I suggest that we NOT use short-hand methods such as this which CAN
)be misconstrued by the uninitiated, or accompany it with a clear statement
)indicating that it is not personal.
I second that, adding the reminder that sarcasm is often
misunderstood by subscribers for whom English is a second language.
Straight talk preferred!
Dan Dugan
Moderator
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 266
-- Topica Digest --
Fresh jazz in the fresh air
By faiman jlc.net
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By alice javanet.com
Admin: RE: Religion and Mysticism and the truth part 5?
By dan dandugan.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
By dan dandugan.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III
By alice javanet.com
Re: On your seriously careful search for truth, all
By alice javanet.com
Re: On your seriously careful search for truth, all
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
By snell netshel.net
On the seriously careless untruthfulness of Peter Staudenmaier
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By steve premofine.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: On the seriously careless untruthfulness of Peter Staudenmaier
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
jazz at High Mowing
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Question regarding teeth
By lizanderrol home.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
By dan dandugan.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- II
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2-May-2001 14:08:45 GMT
From: Neil Faiman (faiman jlc.net)
Subject: Fresh jazz in the fresh air
WILTON ñ About a dozen students formed a reception line of sorts in a
narrow hallway of the High Mowing School.
Jimmy Greene was leaving the building.
The teens stood starry-eyed as their idol personally addressed every one
of them, while slowly ambling toward his car Thursday night for a long
trek back home to Connecticut. He remembered their names, and even
recalled one kidís jazz influences.
...
Greene had wowed a small gathering in the schoolís intimate concert hall
earlier in the evening during a two-set gig with the Steve Davis Sextet.
Teenagers and adults twisted and rumbled their seats, while dozens of
students danced in the aisles and on a balcony. The crowdís reaction
answered why internationally known jazz artists would perform in a tiny
Waldorf boarding school nestled in the foothills of the Monadnock.
ìThis is, I think, our fourth time here, and every time the students are
so gung-ho,î said Steve Davis, a trombonist and leader of the sextet.
ìTheyíre asking questions about Jimmy and I playing with Avishai. Iím 34
years old, and itís great to see 16-year-olds enjoying this.î
...
Doug Morris, a High Mowing teacher whose connections lands acts like
Davisí at the school, acknowledged the value of engaging the music
head-on and without pretension.
ìItís important to celebrate human creativity,î Morris said. ìThis music
inspires. This is Americaís music: jazz. People have to hear it live to
understand itís significance.î
--------------------
Complete article at
uatelegraph.com/Main.asp?SectionID=25&SubSectionID=354&ArticleID=31612).
(Warning -- Nashua Telegraph articles tend to remain on line for only a
couple of days.)
-Neil Faiman
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 10:36:09 -0400
From: alice (alice javanet.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative wrote:
)
) Hi Alice, I've only got time for a quick repsonse. When Steiner died in 1925
) the Nazis were still a small movement that few people took seriously, so we
) can't really expect Steiner to have resisted them himself. After the Nazis
) came to power in 1933, organized anthroposophy faced several choices in how
) to respond to the new regime. I cover some of that history in my articles on
) the PLANS site; in my view, most German anthroposophists would count as
) passive collaborators for much of the Third Reich, while a good chunk of the
) anthro leadership falls into the category of active collaborators for much
) of that time. The one significant exception was Jewish anthroposophists. I
) am unaware of a single example of a German anthroposophist joining the
) resistance; in the words of the anthroposophist Jens Heisterkamp, "the
) anthroposophist movement did not produce any members of the Resistance."
) This is in stark contrast to several other small alternative spiritual
) groups who braved the Nazis with open defiance. As for post-war
) anthroposophy, the record is pretty dismal. Far from the kind of
) soul-searching that you point to within the protestant churches,
) anthroposophy closed ranks around their own myth of having been hounded by
) the Nazis from 1933 onward. Some post-war anthros have even tried to
) "explain" the Third Reich as a necessary episode in the esoteric development
) of humanity. I have no opinions on what this all means in light of the
) doctrine of karma. Hope this is helpful,
)
) Peter S.
)
[Alice comments and seeks answers from history]
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
Were some of Steiner's racial comments used by the Third Reich in their
propaganda?
Where would I find out more about the Jewish anthroposophists at the
time of the rise to power of the national socialists ?
I am sure that you have mentioned this on the list before, but how did
the myth of being persecuted by the nazis begin in anthroposophist
rhetoric?
It doesn't seem surprising to me that the anthroposophists would invent
some reality to glorify their response. This whole movement seems to
contract in fear and mistruths when threatened or questioned.
I can understand the fear that this kind of woo-woo faith would create.
Like your namesake in the New Testament Bible, it may be easier to deny
one's real religious affiliation when asked for the truth by a potential
persecutor. (did I remember that story correctly?) It seems very much
like the dance of denial and stealth that we have discussed by the
Waldorf schools....
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:39:52 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: RE: Religion and Mysticism and the truth part 5?
Su (and everybody else), please don't quote a whole message just to
make a short comment. Thanks,
Dan Dugan
Moderator
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:51:25 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
)I also wonder, in trying to follow the "dialogue" between Sune and
)Peter, what did Steiner DO to help resist the nazis?
To the best of my knowledge, Anthroposophists either collaborated
with the Nazis or laid low to stay out of trouble. The wife of an
Anthroposophist wrote:
"It was not a resistance group in the sense they conspired against
Hitler, but it was a group that tried in a spiritual and Christian
way to push through its goals and thereby be a fortress against the
Nazis. (Frau Doktor Margret Blersch)" [Owings, Alison. Frauen: German
Women Recall the Third Reich. Rutgers University Press, 1995, p. 370.]
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 09:51:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
Dan -
) To the best of my knowledge, Anthroposophists either
) collaborated
) with the Nazis
dottie -
Dan, what a terrible accusation against a man who
worked as hard as he did to wake up others to a
reality of a spiritual truth. Just ugly. And all for
what? Time will tell the truth Mr. Dugan and those who
study Steiner and work to make this world a better
place will stand and it will be known that many of his
teachings do lead to a better understanding of our
world.
Dan -
or laid low to stay out of trouble.
dottie -
Like the rest of the world until it was already too
late. A small group of Anthroposophists laid low. The
man they studied with was already a target for death
of the forming Nazi generation, and they chose to turn
to prayer, meditation and impacting their small
communities in ways that they could at the time.
I read a book called the Spear of Destiny where it
speaks of Hitler blaming Steiner for the fall of his
war and Steiner had already been dead for fifteen
years. Hitler, according to this book by Ravencroft,
felt that Steiner had affected his generals from the
spiritual plane. There is also a mention of one
general in particular who was having a problem with
the way Hitler was extinguishing people earlier on and
he was demoted for cowardice.
Dan -
) The wife of an
) Anthroposophist wrote:
)
) "It was not a resistance group in the sense they
) conspired against
) Hitler, but it was a group that tried in a spiritual
) and Christian
) way to push through its goals and thereby be a
) fortress against the
) Nazis.
dottie -
Dan, do you think this is a bad note? If anything it
shows how the group was unprepared to take on the
Nazis and chose to do it in another way.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 13:48:22 -0400
From: alice (alice javanet.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/
Sune Nordwall wrote:
)
) [many snips to save space]
) The Dragon had just started showing his face when Steiner died.
)
) Regards,
)
) Sune Nordwall
) Stockholm, Sweden
)
[Alice responds]
thank you,Sune for your studious response. It seems like there must be
clear evidence of Steiner being targeted by the Nazis as an enemy.
If so, then the anthroposophical claim to anti-Nazism would have some
basis in reality. I wonder what Steiner said about Hitler?
Did he discuss openly or privately about any perception of evil?
I believe he wrote about "evil" - did his theories discuss
personification of such?
trying to make sense of it all...
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 13:54:28 -0400
From: alice (alice javanet.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careful search for truth, all
dottie zold wrote:
)
) Dan -
) ) To the best of my knowledge, Anthroposophists either
) ) collaborated
) ) with the Nazis
[alice responds]
Dottie, I don't think that this gives a particularly unbalanced view,
from what I have read.
It makes more sense when one reads the quote that Dan wrote from the
wife of an anthroposophist.
I would imagine that they would believe their spiritual forces would be
enough to overcome the worldly evil around them.
Unfortunately, from what I understand, it did not save any lives.
It reveals more about your blind need for faith when you attack Dan and
call him a liar.
I believe that Steiner and many others preached BALANCE.
Why can't you allow full humanity in dialogue, even with someone you
don't agree with?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 12:37:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careful search for truth, all
Alice
) I would imagine that they would believe their
) spiritual forces would be
) enough to overcome the worldly evil around them.
) Unfortunately, from what I understand, it did not
) save any lives.
dottie -
I do not believe they thought their spiritual forces
would BE ENOUGH to OVERCOME worldly evil. It was the
way they personally could respond to what was
happening around them. And no, it seems not even the
countries of our world with all thier machinery could
save millions who perished in that despicable war.
Alice
)
) It reveals more about your blind need for faith when
) you attack Dan and
) call him a liar.
dottie -
Why would you possibly claim that I attacked Dan when
I just stated my opinion of what he wrote? And I did
not call him a liar.
And as far as blind faith it seems you would have that
opinion as mine is very different than yours and that
makes my faith wrong and blind. And you do not even
know what my faith pertains to, do you?
Alice
) I believe that Steiner and many others preached
) BALANCE.
)
dottie -
You are absolutely right I am glad we can agree on
that!
Alice -
) Why can't you allow full humanity in dialogue, even
) with someone you
) don't agree with?
)
dottie -
Isn't that what I did when I responded to Mr. Dugan.
It seems you are the one at the moment that is not
wanting to allow the dialogue I have to offer.
thanks,
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 12:51:39 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
)Dan -
)) To the best of my knowledge, Anthroposophists either
)) collaborated
)) with the Nazis
)
dottie - with finger in ear, singing at the top of her lungs, wrote:
)
)Dan, what a terrible accusation against a man who
)worked as hard as he did to wake up others to a
)reality of a spiritual truth. Just ugly. And all for
)what? Time will tell the truth Mr. Dugan and those who
)study Steiner and work to make this world a better
)place will stand and it will be known that many of his
) teachings do lead to a better understanding of our
)world.
Debra:
Dottie, give us some quotes. Do the work to back up your claims. Debate the
issue, don't just attack Dan.
)Dan -
)or laid low to stay out of trouble.
)
)dottie -
)
)Like the rest of the world until it was already too
)late. A small group of Anthroposophists laid low. The
)man they studied with was already a target for death
)of the forming Nazi generation, and they chose to turn
)to prayer, meditation and impacting their small
)communities in ways that they could at the time.
Debra:
I'm happy to say that my elders didn't lay low. They fought in World War II
against Hitler and his thugs, and I'm pretty proud of this. If the entire
world would have just set back and relied on prayer and meditation, what
would have happened? How far do you think Hitler would have gone, Dottie?
That the Aryan Anthros prayed and meditated while young children were
slaughtered just doesn't do much for me, if in fact that is what they did.
)
)I read a book called the Spear of Destiny where it
)speaks of Hitler blaming Steiner for the fall of his
)war and Steiner had already been dead for fifteen
)years. Hitler, according to this book by Ravencroft,
)felt that Steiner had affected his generals from the
)spiritual plane. There is also a mention of one
)general in particular who was having a problem with
)the way Hitler was extinguishing people earlier on and
)he was demoted for cowardice.
Debra:
Educate us, Dottie. Send in some quotes. Do the work.
)
)Dan -
)) The wife of an
)) Anthroposophist wrote:
))
)) "It was not a resistance group in the sense they
)) conspired against
)) Hitler, but it was a group that tried in a spiritual
)) and Christian
)) way to push through its goals and thereby be a
)) fortress against the
)) Nazis.
)
)dottie -
)
)Dan, do you think this is a bad note? If anything it
)shows how the group was unprepared to take on the
)Nazis and chose to do it in another way.
Debra:
In their typical non-productive three-fold dysfunction...
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 22:11:40 +0200
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: On the seriously careless untruthfulness of Peter Staudenmaier
Alice Klinge, you asked about what you call 'anthroposophist rhetoric':
) how did the myth of being persecuted by the nazis begin in
) anthroposophist rhetoric?
Uwe Werner, Head Archivist at the 'Archiv Am Goeheanum' in Dornach,
Switzerland, in 1999 published an extensive documentation on
'Anthroposophy in the time of Nazi Germany' (Verlag R. Oldenberg,
Munich)
In the book he writes:
***************************************************************
*Anthroposophists belonged to the many groups of people who were
persecuted under the Nazi regime. Hitler's own disdaining remarks
regarding Rudolf Steiner and the Anthroposophists appeared as early as
1921.(1) By spring of 1933, articles criticizing the movement began
appearing more frequently in National Socialist newspapers. By the
summer of that year, Steiner's books were banned from public libraries
in Bavaria, and study groups and branches of the General
Anthroposophical Society, along with other cultural organizations, were
ordered to submit to National Socialistic leadership.
During the years leading up to the 1935 prohibition of the German
Anthroposophical Society and the closing of Waldorf Schools in the years
thereafter, the society Executive Council was faced with the question of
whether to submit to pressure to dissolve the Society of their own
accord, or whether to attempt to preserve the Society and to continue
working as long as and as effectively as possible. Choosing the second
of these two paths made it necessary for them to make compromises in
order to be tolerated by those in power. It is for this reason that,
despite the fact that the main Executive Council had unanimously
renounced the National Socialist cause at an internal meeting at Easter
1933, there was never a public rejection of National Socialism on the
part of the General Anthroposophical Society.
Like the General Anthroposophical Society, institutions based on
anthroposophy (such as Waldorf Schools, schools for the handicapped,
hospitals, schools of Eurythmy, etc.), for the most part adopted a
strategy of peaceful and passive resistance. Waldorf schools experienced
serious financial strains and were forced to let go of Jewish teachers,
but the remaining teachers could continue to create their own lesson
plans. In homes for the handicapped, children could be cared for. It was
still possible to publish and to have access to the work of Rudolf
Steiner. In a manner of working not unlike that carried out by
Anthroposophists today in regions with human rights violations, efforts
were aimed to uphold human dignity wherever possible.
Though the decision had been reached by July 1935, it was not until
November 1, 1935 that, through the efforts of Nazi leaders Heinrich
Himmler and Reinhard Heydrich, the Anthroposophical Society was
prohibited in Germany. The grounds for its prohibition read as follows:
"According to its historical development, the Anthroposophical Society
is internationally oriented and even today continues to maintain close
contacts with foreign freemasons, Jews and pacifists. The methods of
teaching developed by its founder, Steiner, and followed in the
anthroposophical schools still existing today follow an individualistic
and human-oriented education, which has nothing in common with
principles of National Socialistic education. As a result of this
opposition to the National Socialistic idea of Volk (Voelkische
Gedanke), the continued activity of the Anthroposophical Society imposes
the danger of injuring the National Socialistic State. The organization
is therefore to be dissolved on account of its subversive character and
the danger it poses to the public."(2)
The accusations had been carefully researched. Himmler ordered numerous
investigative reports that serve to document the stand of the Nazis
toward anthroposophy. Fifteen in-depth reports, as well as countless
individual accounts, all come to the same conclusion: that anthroposophy
is irreconcilable with the aims and the ideologies of National
Socialism.
"To briefly summarize my judgement," wrote Jakob Wilhelm Hauer,
Professor of Religion at the University of Tuebingen and member of the
Secret Service of the S.S.,
"every undertaking and activity of anthroposophy necessarily arises out
of the Anthroposophical world view. The anthroposophical world view is
in the most important points directly opposed to National Socialism.
Therefore, schools which are built out of the anthroposophical world
view and led by anthroposophists mean danger to true German
education."(3)
Perhaps the most persuasive adherent of National Socialism to formulate
the incompatibility of anthroposophy and National Socialism was Alfred
Bauemler, a distinguished philosopher and professor of education in
Berlin. As part of his work within the Rosenburg Office "for the control
of the intellectual life of the National Socalist Party", he was
commissioned to conduct an in-depth investigation of the work of Rudolf
Steiner. Unlike hasty and unstudied police reports, Bauemler's "Report
on the Waldorf Schools" and "Report on Rudolf Steiner and Philosophy"
are noteworthy attempts to understand the thoughts underlying
anthroposophy: Baeumler's hope was to find means to adopt aspects of
Waldorf pedagogy into National Socialist education. He concluded,
however, that the principles underlying anthroposophy contradict the
aims of the National Socialistic State.
"The fateful distinction", he wrote, "occurs through the fact that
Steiner replaces the theory of heredity with a different, positive
theory. Steiner does not simply overlook the biological reality, but
rather consciously converts it to its opposite. Anthroposophy is one of
the most consequent antibiological systems." In that race and Volk are
discounted in ahroposophy as the essential determining factor of
individual capacity, Bauemler realizes that the objectives in Waldorf
education, according to Steiner's principles, "can only be humanistic,
and not based on race or ethnic group."(4)
In March 1936, Waldorf Schools were prohibited from taking on new
students; by summer of 1941, all Waldorf Schools in Germany had been
forced to close their doors. On June 1941, shortly before the attack on
Russia, the Gestapo staged an action against the "inside opponents" of
the Nazis. The Christian Community was prohibited from continued
activity, prominent Anthroposophists and members of the Christian
Community were arrested, interrogated and imprisoned or sent to
concentration camps. The following fall, the Department of Security of
the Reich published a 50 page brochure entitled Anthroposophy and its
Associated Institutions". The report's concluding statement read:
"If one is to accept the totality of thinking embraced in a world-view
and recognize its impact on the entire opinions and bearing of the
people, then there can be no doubt that followers of Anthroposophy must
necessarily become opponents of National Socialism."(5)
Notes
1. Adolf Hitler writes about Rudolf Steiner and Social Three-folding,
1921
"In the course of the London affair, there gradually emerged such
mysterious circumstances that it has become not only expedient but
indeed necessary to look somewhat more closely at this Minister
(Simons), the intimate friend of the Gnostic and Anthroposophist Rudolf
Steiner, follower of Three-folding the Social Organism and whatever all
these Jewish methods of destroying the normal frame of mind of the
people are called: to see whether that mindless face, as Lloyd George
described it, is really just the result of a deficient intellect, or if
it is the mask behind which something else is concealed ... (he
continues with a protest against Simon's political activity, and
particularly the movement to disarm the German people) ... And who is
the driving force behind all this devilishness? The Jew! Friend of
Doctor Rudolf Steiner, the friend of Simons, the 'mindless' ..."
Adolf Hitler, Staatsmaenner ode Nationalverbrecher ("Men of the State or
National Criminals"), in Voelkischer Beobachter, 35.Jg., 15 March 1921,
S.2. (original German text)
2. Prohibition of the Anthroposophical Society in Germany, November 1,
1935
"Prussian Secret Police, Berlin, November 1, 1935. The deputy chief
(stell. Chef) and Inspector II 1 B 2 69121/766 L/35.
Regarding: the Anthroposophical Society
In accordance with paragraph 1 of the decree of 2.28.1933 for the
Protection of People and State, issued by the President of the Reich, I
hereby dissolve the Anthroposophical Society within the territory of the
German Reich, effective immediately. The organization's properties are
to be confiscated. The re-establishment of the Society, as well as the
creation of undercover successor organizations, is forbidden under
threat of the penalties described in paragraph 4 of the above named
decree.
Grounds: According to its historical development, the Anthroposophical
Society is internationally oriented and even today continues to maintain
close contacts to foreign freemasons, Jews and pacifists. The method
of teaching developed by its founder, Steiner, and followed in the
anthroposophical schools still existing today follow an individualistic
and human-oriented education, which has nothing in common with the
principles of national socialistic education. As a result of its
opposition to the National Socialistic idea of Volk (Voelkische
Gedanke), the continued activity of the Anthroposophical Society imposes
the danger of injuring the National Socialistic state.
The organization is therefore to be dissolved on account of its
subversive character and the danger it poses to the public.
sig. in absentia, Heydrich"
BAK (German Federal Archives) R43 II/822 (original German text)
3. Dr. J.W. Hauer on Waldorf Schools
"[...] To briefly summarize my judgement: Every undertaking and activity
of anthroposophy necessarily arises out of the anthroposophical world
view. The anthroposophical world view is in its most important points
directly opposed to national socialism. Therefore, schools which are
built out of the anthroposophical world view and led by anthroposophists
mean danger to true German education, particularly through the relation
of the anthroposophical communities to Dornach, the international center
of anthroposophy, in which Jews also play an important role, or at any
rate have played until the present. A survey of the teachers and leaders
of the individual Waldorf Schools in Germany before the [Nazi] takeover
indicates clearly that the Jewish impact was important in the German
anthroposophical communities and schools."
Prof. Dr. J.W. Hauer, in an internal report for the Secret Service on
February 7, 1935. BAPR 4901-3285 (original German text)
4. From "Report on Waldorf Schools" and "Report on Rudolf Steiner and
Philosophy" by Alfred Bauemler
"The understanding of man (Menschenkunde) which underlies Waldorf
education contain deep and correct insights, with R.Steiner derived
mostly from his exceedingly fruitful study of Goethe's writings on
natural science. The National Socialistic understanding of man can
only be derived from race. To the extent to which race is a reality of
nature, it could appear that already in the point of departure there lay
an essential correlation between Rudolf Steiner's understanding of man,
and that of National Socialism: Steiner departs from the formative
forces of Nature and bases school-education on the development of
natural forces. One might thereby call his education "biologically"
founded.
However, if one were to attempt to introduce the concept of race as we
understand it into this biological foundation, it would explode
Steiner's understanding of man. This is because National Socialism
departs from the reality of blood, and from differences that exist
between groups of people of differing blood. We grasp these differences
not only biologically/anthropologically, but primarily historically, in
that we turn our attention to those things which people of varying
blood-heritage have produced and developed: the cities, works of art,
inventions, scientific systems, etc. Rudolf Steiner's understanding of
man has no access to this historical thinking derived from knowledge of
the reality of race. The position occupied in our world view by the man
determined by the forces of race is occupied in the world view of Rudolf
Steiner by the Spirit of Man, overeign over all history. The thought of
Rudolf Steiner is not biological-racist, but biological-cosmic."
Alfred Bauemler, Report on Waldorf Schools, 1937, in: Achim Leschinsky,
"Waldorf Schools in National Socialism", Neue Sammlung, May/June 1983,
p. 280 (original German text)
"Steiner is not only an epigone of idealistic philosophy, but he builds
upon the philosophy of the intellect (spirit) in a decided manner. The
fateful turning point occurs through the fact that Steiner replaces the
theory of heredity with a different, positive theory. He does not simply
overlook the biological reality, but rather consciously converts it to
its opposite. Anthroposophy is one of the most consequent antibiological
systems in existence." (p.401)
"Objectives of pedagogical activity: According to the basic assumptions
of anthroposophy, these objectives can only be humanistic, and not based
on race or ethnic groups."(p.403)
Alfred Bauemler, Report on Rudolf Steiner Philosophy, 1938, in: Uwe
Werner, Anthroposophen in der Zeit der Nationalsozialismus 1933-1945,
Muenchen, 1999, p. 401,403. (original German text)
5. "Anthroposophy and its Associated Institutions"
"Die Anthroposophie und ihre Zweckverbaende. Bericht unter Verwendung
von Ergebnissen der Aktion gegen Geheimlehren und sogenannte
Geheimwissenschaften vom 5.Juni 1941." RSHA ca. Oktober 1941.
("Anthroposophy and its Associated Institutions. Report applying
evidence from the Operation against Secret Teachings and so-called
Esoteric Sciences of June 5, 1941." RSHA, ca. October 1941.)
***************************************************************
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell
biology, EU, globalization and social threefolding
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:11:26 -0700
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
On 2 May 2001, at 12:51, Debra Snell wrote:
) )dottie -
) )
) )Like the rest of the world until it was already too
) )late. A small group of Anthroposophists laid low. The
) )man they studied with was already a target for death
) )of the forming Nazi generation, and they chose to turn
) )to prayer, meditation and impacting their small
) )communities in ways that they could at the time.
)
) Debra:
)
) I'm happy to say that my elders didn't lay low. They fought in World War II
) against Hitler and his thugs, and I'm pretty proud of this.
And you should be. People talk about saving the world, but those folks,
those who fought for the Allies in that war, really did save the world.
To be fair, though, it was a lot easier for Americans to fight the Nazis
than for Germans. It was hard for Germans to do much except lay low once
the Nazis came to power (although I'm sure they could have done plenty to
try to prevent the Nazis from coming to power in the first place).
American men of fighting age were drafted, and it was hard for them to do
anything except fight in the war.
Here's an interesting question: does anyone know of Anthroposophists from
the UK, the US, France, or Russia, or any other allied country who fought
against Hitler? Any that were active members of the resistance in
countries that were occupied by Germany? Any that actively worked to help
Jews, Gypsies, gays, and others to escape the countries in which they were
persecuted by Nazis and Fascists?
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:32:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
) ) Debra:
)
) Dottie, give us some quotes. Do the work to back up
) your claims. Debate the
) issue, don't just attack Dan.
)
)
)
dottie -
Please check Sunes notes on this day. However I do not
believe you would want to see those notes as they
contradict everything PLANS and Mr. Peter S. have
written regarding Dr. Steiner and the Nazis..
And are you getting sensitive these days with claiming
I am attacking Dan when I just put forth my opinion.
Whatever happened to 'this is not for the overly
sensitive' or does that apply to just people who value
what Dr. Steiner brought?
Now you ask for quotes. What would be nice is if you
tried to actually be open minded and not have your
finger in your ear while singing at the top of your
lungs, and read what Mr. Sune has brought forth.
However I think I would have a better chance at
waiting for hell to freeze over than to expect some
rational thoughts as Mr. Peter S. likes to speak
of...I wonder what he thinks of Sunes quotes?
It would be great if Mr. Peter S. actually practiced
what he preaches and did not resort to how he is
beginning to doubt Sunes knowledge of Anthroposophy.
Somehow people stop thinking and just believe
everything Mr Peter writes and they are so happy to
jump right on that band wagon. Something PLANS
complains that Anthroposophists do.
thanks,
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:39:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
Steve -
) Any that were active members of the
) resistance in
) countries that were occupied by Germany? Any that
) actively worked to help
) Jews, Gypsies, gays, and others to escape the
) countries in which they were
) persecuted by Nazis and Fascists?
)
dottie -
Theres a lot to be said for those who fought and gave
their lives for the cause.
And then there are those like Dr. Einstein who went
everywhere trying to get people to be conscientous
objectors in another war.
People respond in many different ways when a war is at
hand. It is so easy to Monday night quarterback others
peoples lives isn't it?
dottie
_______________