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-- Topica Digest --
Re: Preparing to attend Open House in Vancouver
By mysplum earthlink.net
re: planning to attend an open house
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Free Comic Book Day (OT)
By steve premofine.com
anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: Anthroposophy is not a cult
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By feetapparel hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 09:58:21 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Preparing to attend Open House in Vancouver
on 4/29/02 6:30 PM, Allen Clark at allenclark1 hotmail.com wrote:
)
) Any suggestions on questions I should use?
)
) Has anyone on this list had experience with the school in North Vancouver,
) Canada?
Sharon: I've had a couple people from Vancouver say they were not happy with
the school, oddly, one was even married to an Anthroposophic doctor!
Strangely, this particular one is a distant relative of mine!!!! Believe or
not! I can't really speak for them though.
Ask the school if it's a Waldorf school based on Steiner's occult doctrine.
Ask if they believe children reincarnate, and when they believe their
various bodies disperse into their physical body (etheric, astral and I).
Ask if they believe the astral body leaves the physical body in bed when it
sleeps and goes out into the cosmos to drink the forces of planetary beings.
Ask them if they believe that the teacher has karma with the children in
their classes. Ask them what the deeper task of the Anthroposophical
movement is (they should say to prepare people to reincarnate into core
groups spread around the world so that they might instruct humanity in what
to "think, feel, will and do". Ask them if they are sectarian or religion
based, if they say no they are lying. Ask them to explain the Anthroposophic
veiled term "child development". Ask them where Steiner worked before he led
a schism to found his own sect Anthroposophy, (they should say the
German/Austrian section of Blavatsky's Theosophical Society under Besant).
Ask them if Steiner was an occultist. Ask them if they teach Anthroposophy
to children, if they say no, they are lying. Ask them if they teach children
that gnomes are real because Steiner believed they actually exist. He
believed that if children develop a relationship with these beings they
would act as emissaries of higher divine spiritual beings, linking humanity
with the spiritual world. Ask them why the walls are painted certain colors,
their answer should be because Steiner believed that if you devote yourself
to color, you will see through the walls and see spirit beings in the
neighborhood. Depending on which color you devote yourself to depends on
what spirits you would see, color is the external expression of spirit
beings. Ask them what experience Steiner had with children and children's
education. They should reply that he tutored a child with water on the
brain, and thischild's brothers when he was young, before he converted to
Theosophy and lectured exclusively about his religion to adults. Ask them to
show you pictures of Steiner's underground Rosicrucian Temple in Stuttgart.
Ask them to see photos of his first and second Goetheanums (Anthroposophic
temples / world headquarters for Anthroposphy). Ask them if they put dark
haired children by the windows to absorb light. Ask them if they connect
children with Steiner's spirit world while doing Eurythmy. Ask them if
Eurythmy has a language, ask them if it utilizes the Zodiac and numerology.
Ask them to make the gestures of Earth, fire, Water and Air, and to show you
some of the gestures that represent letters of power. Do the children pray
to Steiner's Sun Spirit / the Christ Spirit in the mornings? Do they make
magic circles and light a candle? Do they have to eat certain grains on
certain days depending on the planetary alignments? Do they have an alter in
the classrooms? What Anthro rituals are performed at what times of the year?
Ask them what the Advent Spiral symbolizes. Ask them to tell you the
esoteric meanings of colors. Ask them if the Anthroposophical doctor can be
likened to the Rosicrucian doctors of the middle ages. Ask them if he
prescribes alchemical or Paracelsian-like prescriptions to children. Ask to
see a picture of Steiner's sculpture depicting Ahriman, Lucifer and the
Christ (Steiner's trinity). Ask them if Steiner believed Anthroposophy was a
spiritually complete Rosicrucianism and if Steiner was a believer in
Christian Rosenkreutz. Ask them if Max Hendal who founded the Rosicrucian
Fellowship in CA was a follower of Steiner.
I have a million more, but that should get you started.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:04:13 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: re: planning to attend an open house
Allen, from Canada, came onto the list yesterday saying he is planning to
attend an open house at a Waldorf school in North Vancouver, Canada.
Allen requested some questions to ask the school while he is there, or
during an interview. I posted a few, and Sharon posted more.
But I forgot to suggest that Allen also ask the school to more important
things:
*its enrollment versus retention rates. By that, I mean that Allen ought to
talk to the folks there about how many children leave each year from classes
versus how many stay, either each year or for a set period of years. It
would also be illuminating to know the reasons for leaving.
* ask about the school's financial health. We have heard before about
schools that can barely keep their doors open due to a number of factors,
including having each family "pay what they can" and not calling in debts,
etc. It is important to know that a school is going to be there -- and not
to suddenly raise its tuition in a desperate attempt to stay open -- before
enrolling.
I also would urge Allen to ask himself : Do I believe in the tenets of
Anthroposophy enough to want my child "educated" according to them? Do I
understand that Waldorf schools are the parochial schools of Anthroposophy,
and am I comfortable with that?
You cannot separate Anthroposophy and Waldorf -- they are inextricably
related and intertwined.
Knowing that ahead of time can save lots of heartache later.
Lisa
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 08:42:01 -0700
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: Free Comic Book Day (OT)
Hi folks,
This Saturday is Free Comic Book Day all across the country. Free
comics are being distributed at just about every comic book store in
the country, and all the major comic publishers, and many minor
ones, are participating. There are a lot of good comics being given
away for free this Saturday.
I can't tell you how much comics have contributed to my love of
reading, my sense of justice and fairness, and my interest in
science fiction.
More info is available at:
http://www.freecomicbookday.com
--
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Life is just a leap of faith. Spread your arms, and
hold your breath, and always trust your cape." - Guy Clark
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 12:34:31 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
Hello again critics,
Our lone defender of anthroposophy insists that anthroposophy is not a
belief system and that attempts to understand it are "demonic". He doesn't
realize that this makes all of his own claims about its content quite
absurd. He doesn't realize that his description of other interpretations of
anthroposophy as a "bad distorted way of understanding Anthroposophy" are
completely meaningless according to his own theory. Most interesting of all,
he doesn't realize that his numerous assertions about anthroposophy's
content obviously violate his own precept. He says, for example, that in
anthroposophy "there is no such thing called sixth race", and that "Steiner
used the term 'races' for 'epochs' because he was speaking to an audience of
Teosophists who were accustomed with those terms. As soon as he left the
Teosophical Society he changed it with the word 'epochs'." These assertions
are untrue, of course, but that doesn't matter to Percedol, who would prefer
that we discuss his private mental reality instead of discussing actually
existing anthroposophy. It's all so familiar; whenever critics point out
what anthroposophists in the real world have believed, said, written, and
done, people like Percedol, Joel, etc etc try to "defend" anthroposophy by
denying its existence. And they call this willful ignorance "higher
knowledge".... For those of us who would like to discuss the belief system
formerly known as anthroposophy, would the real anthroposophists please
stand up?
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 18:44:26 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
Peter:
)For those of us who would like to discuss the belief system
)formerly known as anthroposophy,
LOL! thanks for the chuckle,
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldís largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 18:03:18 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophy is not a cult
on 4/29/02 3:27 PM, Percedol netscape.net at Percedol netscape.net wrote:
)
) Percedol:
) Rainer Fassbinder, the director did not became a religious follower of
) anything. He actually did beautiful movies. And he was a Waldorf student,
) wasn't he? Not the daughters of our premier became religious followers.
Sharon: Yes, and Pulitzer Prize winning cartoonist Steve Benson is the grand
son of one of the top Mormon leaders (now deceased). Benson grew up to be a
brilliant thinker, one of the best religion satirists alive.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 18:23:07 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
on 4/30/02 10:34 AM, Peter Staudenmaier at pstaud hotmail.com wrote:
It's all so familiar; whenever critics point out
) what anthroposophists in the real world have believed, said, written, and
) done, people like Percedol, Joel, etc etc try to "defend" anthroposophy by
) denying its existence. And they call this willful ignorance "higher
) knowledge".... For those of us who would like to discuss the belief system
) formerly known as anthroposophy, would the real anthroposophists please
) stand up?
Sharon: If Anthroposophy isn't a religion, then what could it possibly be?
A science fiction movie script?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 06:23:27 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
mysplum wrote:
) on 4/30/02 10:34 AM, Peter Staudenmaier at pstaud hotmail.com wrote:
)
) It's all so familiar; whenever critics point out
) ) what anthroposophists in the real world have believed, said, written,
) ) and
) ) done, people like Percedol, Joel, etc etc try to "defend" anthroposophy
) ) by
) ) denying its existence. And they call this willful ignorance "higher
) ) knowledge".... For those of us who would like to discuss the belief
) ) system
) ) formerly known as anthroposophy, would the real anthroposophists please
) ) stand up?
)
) Sharon: If Anthroposophy isn't a religion, then what could it possibly
) be?
) A science fiction movie script?
)
Percedol:
It's a path of inner development.
It's analogue to what the original yoga (not its modern counterfaction)
was in the past.
Times have changed and today's yoga is called Anthroposophy.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 07:04:56 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
G'day Percedol,
do you agree with Joel that this inner development is not detectable by an
external observer? At least I think that is what Joel claims.
See you,
Peter
)From: Percedol netscape.net
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
)Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 06:23:27 +0000
)
)mysplum wrote:
) ) on 4/30/02 10:34 AM, Peter Staudenmaier at pstaud hotmail.com wrote:
) )
) ) It's all so familiar; whenever critics point out
) ) ) what anthroposophists in the real world have believed, said, written,
) ) ) and
) ) ) done, people like Percedol, Joel, etc etc try to "defend"
)anthroposophy
) ) ) by
) ) ) denying its existence. And they call this willful ignorance "higher
) ) ) knowledge".... For those of us who would like to discuss the belief
) ) ) system
) ) ) formerly known as anthroposophy, would the real anthroposophists
)please
) ) ) stand up?
) )
) ) Sharon: If Anthroposophy isn't a religion, then what could it possibly
) ) be?
) ) A science fiction movie script?
) )
)
)Percedol:
)It's a path of inner development.
)It's analogue to what the original yoga (not its modern counterfaction)
)was in the past.
)Times have changed and today's yoga is called Anthroposophy.
)
)
)
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldís largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 717
-- Topica Digest --
Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By feetapparel hotmail.com
The Apocalypse according to Steiner
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: planning to attend an open house
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 08:06:27 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
)))
))) Sharon: If Anthroposophy isn't a religion, then what could it possibly
))) be?
))) A science fiction movie script?
)))
))
)) Percedol:
)) It's a path of inner development.
)) It's analogue to what the original yoga (not its modern counterfaction)
)) was in the past.
)) Times have changed and today's yoga is called Anthroposophy.
Sharon: Not quite Percedol, according to Steiner, Anthroposophy lies between
the Christian path and the Yoga path! Anyway, Yoga is a religion Percedol,
here's Steiner to explain his Rosicrucianism:
Steiner: "Through definite methods the pupil is taught to develop in himself
the wisdom which exists in germ in every human being.
This is the way which was given through the Founder of the Rosicrucian
esoteric stream known to the outer world as Christian Rosenkreutz. It is not
an un-Christian way, rather is it a Christian path adapted to modern
conditions, and lies between the actual Christian path and the Yoga path.
This path had been partially prepared long before the time of Christianity.
It took on a special form through that great initiate, Dionysius the
Areopagite, who in the esoteric school of Paul at Athens inaugurated the
training from which all later esoteric wisdom and training have been
derived.
These are the two paths of esoteric training particularly fitted to the
West. All that is connected with our culture and the life we lead and must
lead, is lifted up, raised into the principle of initiation through the
Christian and through the Rosicrucian training."
(Steiner, R. 154 Theosophy of the Rosicrucian. Rudolf Steiner Press London.
Reprint 1981. Lecture from 1907).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 11:07:53 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
Peter Farrell (feetapparel hotmail.com) wrote:
)G'day Percedol,
)do you agree with Joel that this inner development is not detectable by an
)external observer? At least I think that is what Joel claims.
)See you,
)Peter
Percedol:
How should it be detected?
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 10:52:54 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
) Percedol:
) It's a path of inner development.
) It's analogue to what the original yoga (not its modern counterfaction)
) was in the past.
) Times have changed and today's yoga is called Anthroposophy.
Walden: Interesting. I know of two W schools where well meaning parents
offered to teach Yoga as a volunteer activity (there was much talk of the
lack of physical education in the schools). In both cases the idea was axed
well before any discussion took place. We were told that Yoga has
absolutely nothing to do with Waldorf Education. One of the Yoga teachers
(a mother in the school) told me after that she was astounded - not only at
the reluctance of the school to let the children learn Yoga - but of the
hostility shown her by the head Anthro in the school for even suggesting it!
The mom was questioned about her family's connection to the school if Yoga
is a big part of their life. She was totally confused and has had little to
do with the place since.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 17:58:04 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
Peter Staudenmaier (pstaud hotmail.com) wrote:
)Hello again critics,
)
)Our lone defender of anthroposophy insists that anthroposophy is not a
)belief system and that attempts to understand it are "demonic".
"Maybe he
) thinks that is a doctrine to understand and to be believed. Which is a
) demonic position!"
Percedol:
"Maybe he
) thinks that is a doctrine to understand and to be believed. Which is a
) demonic position!"
It's the 'belief' part that would be demonic because it makes it just
an abstract knowledge.
He doesn't
)realize that this makes all of his own claims about its content quite
)absurd. He doesn't realize that his description of other interpretations of
)anthroposophy as a "bad distorted way of understanding Anthroposophy" are
)completely meaningless according to his own theory. Most interesting of all,
)he doesn't realize that his numerous assertions about anthroposophy's
)content obviously violate his own precept. He says, for example, that in
)anthroposophy "there is no such thing called sixth race", and that "Steiner
)used the term 'races' for 'epochs' because he was speaking to an audience of
)Teosophists who were accustomed with those terms. As soon as he left the
)Teosophical Society he changed Ýit with the word 'epochs'." These assertions
)are untrue, of course, but that doesn't matter to Percedol, who would prefer
)that we discuss his private mental reality instead of discussing actually
)existing anthroposophy. It's all so familiar; whenever critics point out
)what anthroposophists in the real world have believed, said, written, and
)done, people like Percedol, Joel, etc etc try to "defend" anthroposophy by
)denying its existence. And they call this willful ignorance "higher
)knowledge".... For those of us who would like to discuss the belief system
)formerly known as anthroposophy, would the real anthroposophists please
)stand up?
)
)Peter Staudenmaier
Percedol:
There is no belief system called A. because A. is not a belief system.
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 18:02:32 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net) wrote:
)
))))
)))) Sharon: If Anthroposophy isn't a religion, then what could it possibly
)))) be?
)))) A science fiction movie script?
))))
)))
))) Percedol:
))) It's a path of inner development.
))) It's analogue to what the original yoga (not its modern counterfaction)
))) was in the past.
))) Times have changed and today's yoga is called Anthroposophy.
)
)Sharon: Not quite Percedol, according to Steiner, Anthroposophy lies between
)the Christian path and the Yoga path! Anyway, Yoga is a religion Percedol,
)here's Steiner to explain his Rosicrucianism:
)
)Steiner: "Through definite methods the pupil is taught to develop in himself
)the wisdom which exists in germ in every human being.
)This is the way which was given through the Founder of the Rosicrucian
)esoteric stream known to the outer world as Christian Rosenkreutz. It is not
)an un-Christian way, rather is it a Christian path adapted to modern
)conditions, and lies between the actual Christian path and the Yoga path.
)This path had been partially prepared long before the time of Christianity.
)It took on a special form through that great initiate, Dionysius the
)Areopagite, who in the esoteric school of Paul at Athens inaugurated the
)training from which all later esoteric wisdom and training have been
)derived.
)These are the two paths of esoteric training particularly fitted to the
)West. All that is connected with our culture and the life we lead and must
)lead, is lifted up, raised into the principle of initiation through the
)Christian and through the Rosicrucian training."
)
)(Steiner, R. 154 Theosophy of the Rosicrucian. Rudolf Steiner Press London.
)Reprint 1981. Lecture from 1907).
Percedol:
What are you doing? R. is not a religion!
And Yoga is not a religion (repetita iuvant!).
Or please show us how yoga would be a religion!
BTW have you read your quote:
"These are the two paths of esoteric training"
and not religions!
__________________________________________________________________
Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop Netscape!
http://shopnow.netscape.com/
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at
http://webmail.netscape.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:40:17 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
G'day Percedol,
A simple way for me to answer this is to ask if you can tell if someone else
has done this inner development or not, perhaps in conversation, possibly
over an extended period
If you can then it is detectable by an external observer. Incidentally,
certainty about this is not essential, a reasonable probability of being
able to detect this is all that I am intersted in.
See you, Peter
)From: Percedol netscape.net
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
)Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 11:07:53 -0400
)
)Peter Farrell (feetapparel hotmail.com) wrote:
)
) )G'day Percedol,
) )do you agree with Joel that this inner development is not detectable by
)an
) )external observer? At least I think that is what Joel claims.
) )See you,
) )Peter
)
)Percedol:
)How should it be detected?
)
)
)__________________________________________________________________
)Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
)Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop Netscape!
)http://shopnow.netscape.com/
)
)Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at
)http://webmail.netscape.com/
)
)
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:02:04 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: The Apocalypse according to Steiner
Hello critics,
a couple months ago Charlie alerted me to the fact that Steiner's book The
Apocalypse of St. John has been translated into English (Anthroposophical
Publishing Company, London, 1958). I've read portions of the original and
have occasionally posted bits of it here; now that I've looked through the
English edition I've found a lot more interesting material on race. The book
is a series of lectures Steiner gave in Nuremberg in June 1908, explaining
his theosophical interpretation of the Apocalypse of John (the last chapter
in the christian bible, also known as Revelations). When I was a Catholic
kid, this was one of my favorite parts of the bible, a veritable acid trip
of wild imagery and fantastic prophecies. Steiner, as usual, takes this
material and runs with it.
A lot of the major themes in the book will sound familiar. Steiner says that
the ancient Hebrews had no concept of individuality, that they "felt secure
in the group-soul" (129), and that this group nature persists among
latter-day Jews: "This blood-relationship assumes the greatest proportions
among the followers of the Old Testament religion." (25) This Jewish
"Folk-Ego" must be overcome through "Christian evolution" (25). "We have
represented it as a high achievement of man that just through Christianity
he has been able to ascend to this concept of the free "I"." (139) In other
words Steiner repeats several of the antisemitic arguments he developed
elsewhere.
On the other hand, Steiner here refers several times to "the
Assyrian-Babylonian-Chaldaic-Egyptian-Hebrew civilization" as part of the
"fifth epoch" (61). This is the first textual reference I have found to
indicate that Steiner may have considered Jews part of the "Aryan root
race", the group which predominates in the "fifth epoch". A number of
anthroposophists on this list have made this claim over the years, but every
time I asked for a citation they had none to offer. I'm now rethinking my
argument that Steiner consistently shared the standard theosophical view on
this question, which held that Jews were the descendants of those Atlanteans
who did not evolve into Aryans.
Another major theme in this book is the "War of All against All" that will
occur between the fifth epoch and the sixth epoch. Comprehending this
apocalyptic event, Steiner says, is crucial in order to "understand the
direction evolution will actually take." (133) The result of this war will
be a basic divergence within humankind between "the good and the evil races"
(92); this divergence will be "expressed in the features" of people in the
sixth epoch (139). This new racial dispensation will correspond to the
distinction between christians and non-christians, with "the good race" of
believeing christians evolving onward while "the evil race" of non-believers
whithers: after the trials of the sixth epoch, "the earth with all its
beings will pass into a kind of spiritual condition, with the exception of
those who refuse to receive the Christ-principle" (186).
Steiner further associates "the good race" with anthroposophists and "the
evil race" with those who reject anthroposophy. "The souls now living in
bodies which have the heart to hear and feel Anthroposophy, are now
preparing themselves to live in bodies in the future in which power will be
given them to serve their fellow creatures" (206). It is only "those who
have reached the necessary degree of maturity, who have taken the
Christ-principle into themselves and allowed it to become active" who will
partake in the further evolution of humanity. (152) As always in Steiner's
evolutionary scheme, an elite few will advance and face off with the forces
of evil, who in turn will be physically distinct from the forces of good:
"The most capable must be chosen and prepared to live beyond the period of
the great War of All against All when men will confront those who bear in
their countenances the sign of evil" (142).
"All those will participate in this marriage [of intellect and spirit] who
take into themselves the impulse of Christ Jesus and they will form the
great brotherhood which will survive the great War, which will experience
enmity and persecution, but will provide the foundation for the good race.
After this great War has brought out the animal nature in those who have
remained in the old forms, the good race will arise, and this race will
carry over into the future that which is to be the spiritually elevated
culture in that future epoch." (135)
I'll post more tomorrow about "race-development".
Peter S.
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:53:12 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: planning to attend an open house
) I also would urge Allen to ask himself : Do I believe in the tenets of
) Anthroposophy enough to want my child "educated" according to them? Do I
) understand that Waldorf schools are the parochial schools of
Anthroposophy,
) and am I comfortable with that?
)
) You cannot separate Anthroposophy and Waldorf -- they are inextricably
) related and intertwined.
)
) Knowing that ahead of time can save lots of heartache later.
)
) Lisa
Walden:
Thank-you, Lisa. Amen
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 718
-- Topica Digest --
Steiner on "the evil race"
By pstaud hotmail.com
school board meeting in Sebastopol
By dan dandugan.com
Zodiac Farming
By bdjour1 juno.com
RE: Steiner on "the evil race"
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Zodiac Farming
By marja.viita luukku.com
Re: Steiner on "the evil race"
By Tjgarr859 aol.com
Re: Zodiac Farming
By bdjour1 juno.com
*thinkers* report
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: *thinkers* report
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: *thinkers* report
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Questions to ask the school - was Re: anthroposophy is not
anthroposophy
By willow.firesong creative-interweb.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:16:21 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Steiner on "the evil race"
Yesterday I described Steiner's prediction, in The Apocalypse of St. John,
that "in the sixth epoch men will show good and evil in their faces" (145)
because humanity will divide into "the good race" (141) and "the race of
evil" (90). This new racial dispensation will be different, Steiner says,
from the present concept of race which is derived from Atlantis and Lemuria;
but it will retain the chief features of anthroposophical race theory,
namely assigning specific spiritual-evolutionary tasks to specific racial
and ethnic groups. Here is a passage that brings together Steiner's
superficially 'anti-racist' rhetoric ("from every nation") with his
fundamentally racist framework:
"We are now beginning to comprehend the spiritual world from our immediately
present intellectual civilization. It is the aim of true Anthroposophy, from
out of the present intellectual standards, to comprehend the spiritual
world, and to gather together those who can understand the call to
spiritualize the world. These will not form a separate colony but will be
gathered from every nation and will gradually pass into the sixth age, that
is to say, not yet beyond the great War, but primarily into the sixth age,
for necessities still exist which are connected with old race ties. In our
epoch, races and civilizations are still intermingled. The true idea of race
has lost its meaning but it still plays a certain part. It is quite
impossible at present for every mission to be carried out equally by every
people. Certain nations are predestined to carry out a particular mission.
The nations which today are the vehicles of Western civilization were chosen
to lead the fifth age to its zenith; they were the nations who were to
develop the intellect." (133-4)
Steiner also offers a brief recapitulation of the Aryan myth, without using
the term Aryan (although the translator does, in an explanatory note on p.
177), and summarizes his doctrine of small "gifted" elect groups advancing
racially while the rest decline. He writes of "a migration of people
starting from there [Atlantis] and going towards the East and from it a
number of tribes proceeding, which then populate Europe. All that is
contained in the population of Europe originated in this way. The most
gifted portion of the Atlanteans wandered towards central Asia; from there
proceeded the various civilizations up to our own, as we have described. So
we see that our present civilization originated in a small group of
Atlanteans." (140)
But not all races are so lucky. "It was in the fifth stage when this
emigration began; so that the specially chosen population of Atlantis which
lies at the foundation of our culture is taken from the fifth Atlantean
race, for in Atlantis we may speak of races. A sixth and a seventh followed.
These were, so to speak, the lukewarm races. They also survived the great
flood but there was no living sprouting force in them. They were related to
the fifth Atlantean civilization somewhat as the bark which is lignified and
hardened is related to the sappy stem. These two races which followed the
actual root-race were incapable of developing, they were overripe, so to
speak. You may still se stragglers of these old overripe races today,
especially among the Chinese." (140) Steiner then explains that these
racially inferior groups who are incapable of further development will not
be able to join "the good race" after "the War of All against All". (141)
All of this is simply the logical extension of anthroposophy's doctrine that
there are "more developed bodies" with certain racial and ethnic
characteristics which will be "developed higher and higher in future ages"
as the necessary counterpart to spiritual evolution. (206) But those
unfortunates who are stuck in less developed bodies, i.e. in inferior races,
will form "the race of evil" which is destined for destruction. Indeed
cosmic evolution, according to Steiner, functions in this way so that "that
might be destroyed which is not worthy to take part in the ascent of
humanity." (89) Anthroposophy is simply spiritualized Social Darwinism:
"Humanity has risen by throwing out the lower forms in order to purify
itself and it will rise still higher by separating another kingdom of
nature, the kingdom of the evil race. Thus mankind rises upward." (84)
In light of stark pronouncements like this one, it isn't surprising that so
many anthroposophists ended up sympathizing with and cooperating with
Nazism's attempt to "purify itself" by "throwing out the lower forms" which
were not "worthy to take part in the ascent of humanity." I will post more
later about Steiner's account of "race-development" and its relationship to
"soul-development" as outlined in this book.
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 10:40:27 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: school board meeting in Sebastopol
I drove over three hours round-trip to speak for two minutes at the
Twin Hills Union School District near Sebastopol, CA. A group led by
the Superintendent of Schools is promoting a Waldorf charter. This
area already has a Waldorf charter in Sebastopol, and a private
Waldorf school (Willow Wood) that's going out of business. Since they
can't make it on their own, they're going to get the taxpayers to pay
for it. SunRidge Charter School will be in the same buildings that
the private Waldorf school was in. Of course there's no
relationship... (it's illegal to convert a private school to a
charter).
The hearing was stacked. The Waldorf people knew about it, but the
community in general wasn't informed about it. There were over 60
people who wanted to speak in favor of the school, and five who spoke
against it, including this outside agitator. I told them Waldorf was
entirely the creation of Steiner's Anthroposophy, all the resource
materials came from Anthroposophy, and that the teacher training was
all in Anthroposophical institutitions. I asked that the 50-page
article packets I gave to the board and to their lawyer be entered
into the record. I suggested if they wanted an executive summary,
read the article "Are Rudolf Steiner's Waldorf Schools
Non-Sectarian?" and told the crowd that it was available on our web
site. I suggested that the lawyer read Barker's letter to the
Sacramento School Board, and the San Diego counsel's letter to their
school board, both also on the web site. I told them public Waldorf
schools violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, and
the California Constitution, which is even more strict. I suggested
that they save up money for when we will sue them.
In a bizarre twist, a woman suggested that if people really wanted to
know about cults, they should read Margaret Singer's "Cults in Our
Midst." She said real cult experts would have nothing to do with the
allegations on "Dan Dugan's web site." I guess she didn't notice that
Singer's book is in the PLANS bookstore.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 19:52:49 +0200
From: bell d jour (bdjour1 juno.com)
Subject: Zodiac Farming
Hi All,
You might be interested in an article entitled "Mystic Farmers Get Grants
for Zodiac Growing" that appeared in the Sunday, April 28 edition of The
London Times. Seems that in addition to scamming American taxpayers to
pay for their cult schools the Waldofers are also getting British
taxpayers to foot the bill for their bizarre farming techniques, such as
burying cow horns in fields so that they will soak up "Earth energies."
One part of the article I thought was very telling was the statement:
"Each farm is treated as a self-contained evolving organism where output
from the outside world is kept to a minimum." That may be a description
of a "bio-dynamic" farm, but it also strikes me as a pretty accurate
description of a Waldorf school. It's much easier to live in a fantasy
world if you never have contact with the real world.
Bob DeJournette
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 16:35:14 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Steiner on "the evil race"
Peter Staudenmaier (pstaud hotmail.com) wrote:
)Yesterday I described Steiner's prediction, in The Apocalypse of St. John,
)that "in the sixth epoch men will show good and evil in their faces" (145)
)because humanity will divide into "the good race" (141) and "the race of
)evil" (90). This new racial dispensation will be different, Steiner says,
)from the present concept of race which is derived from Atlantis and Lemuria;
)but it will retain the chief features of anthroposophical race theory,
)namely assigning specific spiritual-evolutionary tasks to specific racial
)and ethnic groups. Here is a passage that brings together Steiner's
)superficially 'anti-racist' rhetoric ("from every nation") with his
)fundamentally racist framework:
)
)"We are now beginning to comprehend the spiritual world from our immediately
)present intellectual civilization. It is the aim of true Anthroposophy, from
)out of the present intellectual standards, to comprehend the spiritual
)world, and to gather together those who can understand the call to
)spiritualize the world. These will not form a separate colony but will be
)gathered from every nation
Percedol:
And this means that each individual from any part of the world and
from any nation may turn to good or to evil. It's a very individual
choice.
and will gradually pass into the sixth age, that
)is to say, not yet beyond the great War, but primarily into the sixth age,
)for necessities still exist which are connected with old race ties. In our
)epoch, races and civilizations are still intermingled. The true idea of race
)has lost its meaning but it still plays a certain part. It is quite
)impossible at present for every mission to be carried out equally by every
)people. Certain nations are predestined to carry out a particular mission.
)The nations which today are the vehicles of Western civilization were chosen
)to lead the fifth age to its zenith; they were the nations who were to
)develop the intellect." (133-4)
Percedol:
And since these nations are quite evidently failing that mission, who
will continue it if they totally fail?
)
)Steiner also offers a brief recapitulation of the Aryan myth, without using
)the term Aryan (although the translator does, in an explanatory note on p.
)177), and summarizes his doctrine of small "gifted" elect groups advancing
)racially while the rest decline. He writes of "a migration of people
)starting from there [Atlantis] and going towards the East and from it a
)number of tribes proceeding, which then populate Europe. All that is
)contained in the population of Europe originated in this way. The most
)gifted portion of the Atlanteans wandered towards central Asia; from there
)proceeded the various civilizations up to our own, as we have described. So
)we see that our present civilization originated in a small group of
)Atlanteans." (140)
)
)But not all races are so lucky. "It was in the fifth stage when this
)emigration began; so that the specially chosen population of Atlantis which
)lies at the foundation of our culture is taken from the fifth Atlantean
)race, for in Atlantis we may speak of races. A sixth and a seventh followed.
)These were, so to speak, the lukewarm races. They also survived the great
)flood but there was no living sprouting force in them. They were related to
)the fifth Atlantean civilization somewhat as the bark which is lignified and
)hardened is related to the sappy stem. These two races which followed the
)actual root-race were incapable of developing, they were overripe, so to
)speak. You may still se stragglers of these old overripe races today,
)especially among the Chinese." (140) Steiner then explains that these
)racially inferior groups who are incapable of further development will not
)be able to join "the good race" after "the War of All against All". (141)
Percedol:
You do not give quotes about this. According to your comment the
entire Mongolian (because if I remember correctli Chinese and
Japanese would belong to earlier times in Atlantis) nation would go
dark. Then how would the good ones come out of every nation?
)
)All of this is simply the logical extension of anthroposophy's doctrine that
)there are "more developed bodies" with certain racial and ethnic
)characteristics which will be "developed higher and higher in future ages"
)as the necessary counterpart to spiritual evolution. (206) But those
)unfortunates who are stuck in less developed bodies, i.e. in inferior races,
)will form "the race of evil" which is destined for destruction.
Percedol:
This does not make sense! In your comment you let understand that the
choice to become good depends on the racial background. This implies
a total determinism, i.e. there is no way to become part of the good
ones if I am an Asian, etc. It is then in contrast with the fact that
people from all nations will choose good or evil, disregarding the
ethnic background. Also it does not makes sense because the inner
discipline is equally possible to any human being because the spirit
is not tied to the ethnic element. Anybody can develop the spiritual
self. Also it is described in many lectures that many of the evil
ones will still be rescued in future times. Only in much further
future those who will still be bound to evil will face a different
evolution.
Indeed
)cosmic evolution, according to Steiner, functions in this way so that "that
)might be destroyed which is not worthy to take part in the ascent of
)humanity." (89)
Percedol:
This is another distortion: those who fall down are those who permit
others to go up. Those who went up will have to help them to move up.
They moved up thanks to the sacrifice of those who let themselves go
down.
Anthroposophy is simply spiritualized Social Darwinism:
)"Humanity has risen by throwing out the lower forms in order to purify
)itself and it will rise still higher by separating another kingdom of
)nature, the kingdom of the evil race. Thus mankind rises upward." (84)
Percedol:
Because man will have to liberate the kingdoms of nature!
)
)In light of stark pronouncements like this one, it isn't surprising that so
)many anthroposophists ended up sympathizing with and cooperating with
)Nazism's attempt to "purify itself" by "throwing out the lower forms" which
)were not "worthy to take part in the ascent of humanity."
Percedol:
People who (mis)understood A. like you did? No surprise thay became
nazi! With the ability of distorting things to such level!
I will post more
)later about Steiner's account of "race-development" and its relationship to
)"soul-development" as outlined in this book.
)
Percedol:
No matter what you post the spirit is not limited by the soul:
whether is sentient, rational or consciousness!
You might spare us this delirium!!!
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 16:50:32 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
on 5/1/02 3:02 PM, Percedol netscape.net at Percedol netscape.net wrote:
)Steiner: "These are the two paths of esoteric training particularly fitted to
the West. All that is connected with our culture and the life we lead and
must lead, is lifted up, raised into the principle of initiation through the
Christian and through the Rosicrucian training."
))
)) (Steiner, R. 154 Theosophy of the Rosicrucian. Rudolf Steiner Press London..
)) Reprint 1981. Lecture from 1907).
)
) Percedol:
) What are you doing? R. is not a religion!
Sharon: Of course Rosicrucianism is a religion.
)
) And Yoga is not a religion (repetita iuvant!).
) Or please show us how yoga would be a religion!
Sharon: Oh please Percedol, go to the library and do some reading. Are you
trained in methods to psychologically break down a rational thinker, or are
you just in need of a trip to the library? The name Yoga refers to a school
of thought within Hinduism or a prescription for attaining inner peace and
equilibrium (samadhi). When Yoga is capitalized, it refers to the Hindu
religion, and when written in lower case it has to do with the state known
as samadhi. Yoga is a fully articulated metaphysical system, one of six
orthodox schools of Hinduism. The guiding doctrine of Yoga was compiled by
Patanjali in the second century BCE. It shares metaphysical principles with
an older, more established system called Samkhya. Followers focus on the
deity Isvara while performing their spiritual exercises to release their
purusa from the afflictions of the body, though Isvara does not play an
active role in the religion and may have been introduced in order to attract
theistically minded Samkhya apostates. Adherents (yogis) who reach the state
of samadhi do not accrue additional karma and will exhaust their karma
acquired in past incarnations, exiting the cycle of earthly rebirths,
entering into the World Soul or Brahman permanently. It is an eight-stage
discipline of spiritual and physical exercises, and can be compared to the
"Noble Eightfold Path" of Buddha. Yogis are believed to have magical and
supernatural powers such as being able to read the thoughts of others, speak
with the dead, know the future and past, become large or small, and
transport themselves anywhere by using their will. (Much like Steiner's
claims. Steiner's path is is a seven-fold discipline, and adherents
ultimately become a universal human.)
)
) BTW have you read your quote:
) "These are the two paths of esoteric training"
) and not religions!
Sharon: I sure hope that you are familiar with the Brittish TV series
"Faulty Towers" because I'd like you to please read the rest of this post as
if Sybil, (Basil Fawlty's wife), was lecturing Mr. Fawlty.......Bas..il! er
I mean Perce..dol..."Esoteric training" is religion! You can learn that in a
basic class on religions! Yes, Percedol, I read the quote, the lecture and
the book in which Steiner recommends two paths to his followers, the
Rosicrucian path being the preferable choice for modern man, and Steiner's
other option, the Christian path. In the Christian Initiation, followers
have to learn to carry their physical body through the world as if it were a
foreign object, a table for example. They must also call forth the "Ordeal
of the Blood" in which certain reddenings appear on the body recalling the
wounds of Christ. They have to die a mystic death where they descend into
hell, etc. Steiner's Rosicrucian path...Percedol... (squalked with
infliction on the ol... deep breath), is more of an external initiation, and
is what Waldorf schools provide. Initiates have to study the elementals of
occultism, learn to read the occult script, prepare the philosopher's Stone
etc. The breathing exercises and absorption of Anthroposophical thoughts
helps prepare the Philosopher's Stone. Now go on Percedol and put that gnome
back in the garden where it belongs.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 21:47:25 +0000
From: Marja (marja.viita luukku.com)
Subject: RE: Zodiac Farming
Which kind of grants bio-dyn farming is getting according to that
article?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 20:13:47 EDT
From: Tjgarr859 aol.com
Subject: Re: Steiner on "the evil race"
Tom
You are obviously a "true believer" and wish to talk yourself back into a
dream world which is your right, however, what the heck does your opinion
truly mean to Waldorf parents who have been duped because these teachers,
etc. insist on keeping this secret.
There is a deliberate pattern of disinformation which needs to be addressed
in the open, or in court.
Can you tell me what the big secret is? Is this another part of Steiner's
(sorry for this word) PLAN to initiate it's believers through non verbal
means?
Again, I have no interest in keeping you or anyone from reaching Vulcan, but
lets all be honest about what this truly is and move on.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 04:34:04 +0200
From: bell d jour (bdjour1 juno.com)
Subject: Re: Zodiac Farming
According to the article the British government is supporting bio-dynamic
farming upwards of 140 million pounds. Some of this amount may be going
to other types of "organic" farming, but it seems that all of the newly
established "bio-dynamic" farms are being subsidized by the state.
Bob DeJournette
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 22:03:45 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: *thinkers* report
Has anyone seen this report on Steiner the *philosopher* and Waldorf:
http://www.ibe.unesco.org/International/Publications/Thinkers/ThinkersPdf/st
einere.pdf
The entire site is interesting but I mention the above for your comment
(Peters, Dan, Sharon, Koala, Percedol - anyone?) It mentions a few stats in
Germany - if anyone has more info I would love to hear about it.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 22:38:44 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: *thinkers* report
----- Original Message -----
From: "walden" (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 10:03 PM
Subject: *thinkers* report
Sorry - wrong URL Here - scroll down to find Steiner:
http://www.ibe.unesco.org/International/Publications/Thinkers/thinhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 07:39:27 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: *thinkers* report
Thanks to Walden for a very interesting article. I have extracted one part
of a paragraph that I think is interesting. Here goes.
The Rudolf Steiner schools are not only successful in themselves. The
educational results of the pupils
who have attended them in Germany are also impressive. This is already
reflected in the fact that in 1990
almost twice as many pupils of Rudolf Steiner schools (57.5%) attained the
qualification necessary for
university studies than pupils of the same year attending state schools;20
and this despite the fact that their work
had not been sanctioned for twelve years by marks. An earlier quantitative
survey of former German pupils of
the Rudolf Steiner schools (born in the year 1940/41) revealed significant
differences between this group and a
control group in the following areas: higher geographical and social
mobility; more pronounced leisure
activities in the areas of reading, interest in art, practice of a musical
instrument and ability in craftwork; and an
interest in further training.21 A recent qualitative study of the
educational biographies of former pupils of a
Rudolf Steiner school with a double academic and professional curriculum
(Hibernia School at Herm,
Germany) also showed that these pupils were better equipped to face the
challenge of life and, in particular,
more capable of dealing with technical tasks. They showed greater
self-confidence and a wider range of
interests, were open to new ideas and were particularly willing to accept
social responsibility.22 The Rudolf
Steiner school investigated in that case revealed all the central
characteristics of a good school: (a) childoriented
and methodically competent teachers; (b) a harmonious school style
guaranteed by agreement on the
basic pedagogical principles; (c) permanent reflection on the teachers own
action at educational conferences
and advanced training courses; and (d) an awareness of continuity through
the creation of a school tradition.
End quote.
I should tell you that the article is by no means flattering to Rudolf
Steiner, nor does it seem to me to be one sided. I would like to see some
more of the references from which the conclusions referred to above come.
Anyone have access to any of this stuff.
Peter Farrell
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 17:03:35 +0930
From: Willow Firesong (Willow.Firesong creative-interweb.com)
Subject: Questions to ask the school - was Re: anthroposophy is not
anthroposophy
At 01-05-02 10:52 AM Wednesday, you wrote:
) ) Percedol:
) ) It's a path of inner development.
) ) It's analogue to what the original yoga (not its modern counterfaction)
) ) was in the past.
) ) Times have changed and today's yoga is called Anthroposophy.
)
)Walden: Interesting. I know of two W schools where well meaning parents
)offered to teach Yoga as a volunteer activity (there was much talk of the
)lack of physical education in the schools). In both cases the idea was axed
)well before any discussion took place. We were told that Yoga has
)absolutely nothing to do with Waldorf Education. One of the Yoga teachers
)(a mother in the school) told me after that she was astounded - not only at
)the reluctance of the school to let the children learn Yoga - but of the
)hostility shown her by the head Anthro in the school for even suggesting it!
)The mom was questioned about her family's connection to the school if Yoga
)is a big part of their life. She was totally confused and has had little to
)do with the place since.
This is very interesting. I have studied yoga, t'ai chi, chi kung, and
other related techniques for years, for medical reasons (partly as physical
therapy for ongoing chronic pain problems). I was told by my daughter's
nanny/mother's helper, a Steiner school alumnus, that these appeared to be
similar to Eurhythmy, which my daughter would automatically be studying if
I enrolled her at the local Steiner school - but that she would not be
allowed to study them, and we would find that our own study/practise of
them would be frowned on, during her time at the school. This sounded very
odd to me at the time, because I'd never heard of a school trying to
control a child's extracurricular studies, or choice of athletic activities.
This particular person was initially under the impression that we'd be
well-matched with the Steiner school, but over the period of his employment
with us, he became very concerned about whether we knew what we were
getting into, and brought up the subject increasingly often. In caring for
our precocious daughter, he became increasingly doubtful whether she would
be well served by things like the delayed reading, or the strict control
over the types of artistic media used by the children who attended the
school. Other concerns included the limitations on the scientific
education given to the children (our daughter is mad about space, and has
been determined to be an astronaut since she first encountered the concept,
long before she could pronounce the word), the heavy emphasis on a
Christian paradigm, and the uncritical approach to occult mysticism, and
the writings of Steiner.
I would like to ask the schools, and their representatives here on this
list, a few questions, myself - so, to the parent who was looking for
things to ask at an upcoming school open house, please consider the
following, and if you ask them, please post the answers here, as I'd like
to know what the answers are, too.
Does this Steiner-centered view of things extend to other aspects of the
school? Is there a set way of doing things, which does not allow for equal
respect to be extended to similar or related studies or practises (such as
the contrast between Eurhythmy and yoga, chi kung, t'ai chi, etc.)? Is the
educational system based exclusively in the writings of Steiner, or are
there other sources, which are not based on the writings of Steiner or his
followers, which are given respect and are used in the school?
Are students required to participate in activities related to a religion
which is not their own? Are all children required, for instance, to create
a Madonna or other Christian-themed artwork, such as images of saints, or
Noah's ark? Are all children required to participate in rituals that make
mention of any deity or religious figure(s), and if so, what types of
rituals and terms are used - blessings, celebrations of Saints' Days,
etc.? Are children taught religious beliefs as part of the regular
curriculum, without any effort to distinguish them as being different from
the objective fact-based portions of the curriculum? Are any religious or
spiritual beliefs taught as being more valid or correct than others?
Are there any study groups associated with the school, and if so, are any
of them teaching religious beliefs to the children? If there are such
study groups, are they led by teachers or other authority figures from the
school, with whom the children might try to curry favour through
participation in the study groups, or whose authority puts them in a
position of trust as a source of reliable, objective information about the
world?
I saw a recent special on Australia's ABC TV, in which Steiner and the
schools were covered, and I noticed that although the kids all said that
Steiner and anthroposophical study groups were "optional", and "apart from
the school", all of the children interviewed participated in such study
groups. Is pressure of *any* kind found in any part of the schools
(including references to Steiner and Anthroposophy in advice to parents, or
in passing in the curriculum as practised), with regard to these "optional"
study groups?
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 719
-- Topica Digest --
Re: *thinkers* report
By pstaud hotmail.com
Percedol's delirium
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: Questions to ask the school - was Re: anthroposophy is
notanthroposophy
By Percedol netscape.net
Steiner on "backward races"
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: *thinkers* report
By sarina bainbridge.net
RE: Digest for waldorf-critics topica.com, issue 718
By michelle_hamilton hp.com
Re: Digest for waldorf-critics topica.com, issue 718
By Gary GoodWinter.com
UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By marja.viita luukku.com
RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Percedol's delirium
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: *thinkers* report
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: *thinkers* report
By steve premofine.com
RE: *thinkers* report
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: *thinkers* report
By bdjour1 juno.com
Re: *thinkers* report
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 09:59:14 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: *thinkers* report
)http://www.ibe.unesco.org/International/Publications/Thinkers/thinhome.htm
Great find, Walden! This is an article by Heiner Ullrich, academic director
of the Pedagogical Institute at Mainz University. I think his work on
anthroposophy and Waldorf is top-notch, and this is the first time I've seen
any of it translated. I very much recommend that everybody take the time to
read through the article (it's about 10 pages long).
Although I disagree with him on some details, Ullrich's attitude toward
Waldorf education is very similar to my own: a mixed bag pedagogically, with
many positive elements that were largely borrowed from other educational
reform movements (often in contradiction to Steiner's other doctrines, as
Ullrich notes), but based on an occult worldview that is at best a hindrance
and at worst very damaging. Although his formulation in this article is
fairly reserved and polite, he basically sees the Waldorf movement as a
reform attempt turned dogmatic because of its esoteric underpinnings.
One of the statistics in the article (the 57.5% figure, which Peter F noted
as well) is probably misleading outside of a German context. The German
school system beyond the primary/intermediate level is divided into three
very different types of high school, and only one of those three types (the
Gymnasium) typically leads on toward university education, which remains the
privilege of a relatively small minority. Gymnasiun enrollment is in turn
tightly correlated to class; if you come from a middle class or professional
family, you're much more likely to go there and hence on to university. The
statistic Ullrich cites is for Waldorf pupils who have passed the Abitur (or
perhaps merely taken the Abitur; it isn't clear from the context), the huge
test that pupils graduating from a Gymnasium must take if they want to go to
university. As Ullrich explains in the preceding paragraph, German Waldorf
pupils generally come from professional and middle-class families, thus the
Abitur statistic is not at all surprising when compared to general
statistics for all state schools. This tells us more about the social basis
of Waldorf's clientele than it does about the quality of education offered.
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 10:03:28 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Percedol's delirium
)Percedol:
)No matter what you post the spirit is not limited by the soul: whether is
)sentient, rational or consciousness!
)You might spare us this delirium!!!
You can't accuse someone else of "distorting" a book that you haven't read,
Percedol. Everything you said in your reply is the result of your ignorance
of Steiner's work. I once again recommend that you familiarize yourself with
that work if you would like to discuss it.
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 11:22:33 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Questions to ask the school - was Re: anthroposophy is
notanthroposophy
)This is very interesting. ÝI have studied yoga, t'ai chi, chi kung, and
)other related techniques for years, for medical reasons (partly as physical
)therapy for ongoing chronic pain problems). ÝI was told by my daughter's
)nanny/mother's helper, a Steiner school alumnus, that these appeared to be
)similar to Eurhythmy, which my daughter would automatically be studying if
)I enrolled her at the local Steiner school - but that she would not be
)allowed to study them, and we would find that our own study/practise of
)them would be frowned on, during her time at the school. ÝThis sounded very
)odd to me at the time, because I'd never heard of a school trying to
)control a child's extracurricular studies, or choice of athletic activities.
Percedol:
Yoga as a physical activity is alright and good for the young. The W.
school should not oppose to practice it.
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Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 11:41:23 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Steiner on "backward races"
This will be my third and next-to-last installment of quotes from Steiner's
book The Apocalypse of St. John. The heart of the book is lecture 4, an
exposition of "the cycle of human evolution" as it approaches "the War of
All against All" (78). Here Steiner explains the relationship between
"race-development" and "soul-development" as it plays itself out through the
cycles of racial decline and advance, where small minorities move upward
while the rest degenerate, using the rise of the civilization-founding
Aryans as his chief example. He also expands on the connection between
"advanced" souls and "advanced" bodies, on the one hand, and "backward"
souls and "backward" bodies on the other, one of the linchpins of
anthroposophy's racist worldview. This passage is very revealing, and I will
quote it in full - apologies for excessive length. I posted part of it a few
months ago in my own translation (Steiner's revival of the antisemitic myth
of Ahasuerus, the Wandering Jew or Eternal Jew), but since this is the
official English translation I will include it again here.
"Today we shall pass on in our studies to that which presents itself to the
pupil when he advances to the next stage of initiation. We were confronted
by the seven sub-ages of the present cycle of humanity, and we have said
that this entire cycle with its seven sub-ages is itself a small cycle
contained in a longer period also containing seven epochs. Our epoch, which
embraces seven ages, was preceded by the Atlantean epoch, during which were
prepared the races whose echoes still exist. When the seventh age of our
present epoch is at an end, it will be followed by another epoch again
consisting of seven parts. The present epoch is preparing indirectly for the
following one, so that we may say, our age of civilization will gradually
pass over into one of brotherly love, when a comparatively small part of
humanity will have understood the spiritual life and will have prepared the
spirit and attitude of brotherly love. That civilization will then again
divide off a smaller portion of human beings who will survive the event
which will have such a destructive effect upon our epoch, namely, the War of
All against All. In this universal destructive element there will be
everywhere individuals who lift themselves above the rest of warring
humanity, individuals who have understood the spiritual life and who will
form the foundation for a new and different world in the sixth epoch.
Something similar also took place during the transition from the fourth
epoch to ours. When one who with spiritual vision can review the course of
time has passed back through the ages we have considered, the Graeco-Roman,
the Babylonian-Egyptian, the ancient Persian and the ancient Indian and
beyond the time of the great flood, he comes into the Atlantean epoch. We
need not now consider it in detail but we must at least understand how this
Atlantean civilization passed over into our own. There, too, the greater
part of the Atlantean population was not sufficiently mature to develop
further, it was incapable of coming over into our epoch. A smaller part,
living in a region near to our present Ireland, developed to the highest
flower of the civilization of Atlantis and then journeyed towards the East.
We must clearly understand that this was only the principal stream. There
were always peoples who emigrated from the West to the East, and all the
later peoples of Europe, of northern and central Europe, proceeded from the
stream which then went from the West to the East. Now that most advanced
part of the Atlantean population was under the guidance of a great leader of
humanity and eventually settled down as a very small tribe of chosen
individuals in Central Asia. From this point the colonists migrated to the
various regions of civilization mentioned, to ancient India, to Persia,
Egypt, Greece, etc.
You might now be inclined to say: Is it not an extremely bitter thought that
whole bodies of peoples remain immature and do not develop their capacities;
that only a small group becomes capable of providing the germ for the next
civilization? This thought will no longer disquiet you if you distinguish
between race-development and individual soul-development, for no soul is
condemned to remain in one particular race. The race may fall behind; the
community of people may remain backward, but the souls progress beyond the
several races. If we wish to form a true conception of this we must say that
all the souls now living in bodies in civilized countries were formerly
incarnated in Atlantean bodies. A few developed there in the requisite
manner, and did not remain in Atlantean bodies. As they had developed
further they could become the souls of the bodies which had also progressed
further. Only the souls which as souls had remained backward had to take
bodies which as bodies had remained at a lower stage. If all the souls had
progressed, the backward races would either have decreased very much in
population, or the bodies would be occupied by newly incoming souls at a low
stage of development. For there are always souls which can inhabit backward
bodies. No soul is bound to a backward body if it does not bind itself to
it.
The relation between soul-development and race-development is preserved to
us in a wonderful myth. Let us imagine race following race, civilization
following civilization. The soul going through its earth mission in the
right way is incarnated in a certain race; it strives upward in this race,
and acquires the capacities of this race in order next time to be incarnated
in a higher one. Only the souls which sink in the race and do not work out
of the physical materiality, are held back in the race by their own weight,
as one might say. They appear a second time in the same race and eventually
a third time in bodies in similarly formed races. Such souls hold back the
bodies of the race. This has been wonderfully described in a legend. We
know, indeed, that man progresses further in the fulfilment of the mission
of the earth by following the great Leaders of humanity who point out the
goals to be attained; if he rejects them, if he does not follow them, he
must remain behind with his race, for he cannot then get beyond it. Let us
think of a persnality who has the good forune to meet a great Leader of
humanity, let us suppose such a personality confonting Christ Jesus himself,
for example; he sees how all his deeds are evidence for leading humanity
forward, but he will have nothing to do with this progress, he rejects the
Leader of humanity. Such a personality, such a soul would be condemned to
remain in the race. If we follow this thought to its conclusion such a soul
would have to appear again and again in the same race, and we have the
legend of Ahasuerus who had to appear in the same race again and again
because he rejected Christ Jesus. Great truths concerning the evolution of
humanity are placed before us in such a legend as this."
Rudolf Steiner, The Apocalypse of St. John, pp. 78-81.
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 09:59:15 -0700
From: "Sarina McDonald" (sarina bainbridge.net)
Subject: Re: *thinkers* report
An interesting anecdote:
My friend the PhD in Philosophy, when asked if he knew much about
Steiner, said "Isn't he that Anthro-something guy? Nope, don't know
much about him."
I suppose it's possible that he never deserved his PhD, but he seems
to know an awful lot about a great many other (obscure)
philosophers...
Sarina
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 10:01:14 -0700
From: "HAMILTON,MICHELLE (HP-Vancouver,ex1)" (michelle_hamilton hp.com)
Subject: RE: Digest for waldorf-critics topica.com, issue 718
hi,
i've been magically added back to this list-serv; i did not opt-in. please
remove me from your list.
thanks,
m
-----Original Message-----
From: waldorf-critics topica.com [mailto:waldorf-critics topica.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 4:26 AM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Digest for waldorf-critics topica.com, issue 718
-- Topica Digest --
Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By feetapparel hotmail.com
The Apocalypse according to Steiner
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: planning to attend an open house
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 08:06:27 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
)))
))) Sharon: If Anthroposophy isn't a religion, then what could it possibly
))) be?
))) A science fiction movie script?
)))
))
)) Percedol:
)) It's a path of inner development.
)) It's analogue to what the original yoga (not its modern counterfaction)
)) was in the past.
)) Times have changed and today's yoga is called Anthroposophy.
Sharon: Not quite Percedol, according to Steiner, Anthroposophy lies between
the Christian path and the Yoga path! Anyway, Yoga is a religion Percedol,
here's Steiner to explain his Rosicrucianism:
Steiner: "Through definite methods the pupil is taught to develop in himself
the wisdom which exists in germ in every human being.
This is the way which was given through the Founder of the Rosicrucian
esoteric stream known to the outer world as Christian Rosenkreutz. It is not
an un-Christian way, rather is it a Christian path adapted to modern
conditions, and lies between the actual Christian path and the Yoga path.
This path had been partially prepared long before the time of Christianity.
It took on a special form through that great initiate, Dionysius the
Areopagite, who in the esoteric school of Paul at Athens inaugurated the
training from which all later esoteric wisdom and training have been
derived.
These are the two paths of esoteric training particularly fitted to the
West. All that is connected with our culture and the life we lead and must
lead, is lifted up, raised into the principle of initiation through the
Christian and through the Rosicrucian training."
(Steiner, R. 154 Theosophy of the Rosicrucian. Rudolf Steiner Press London.
Reprint 1981. Lecture from 1907).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 11:07:53 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
Peter Farrell (feetapparel hotmail.com) wrote:
)G'day Percedol,
)do you agree with Joel that this inner development is not detectable by an
)external observer? At least I think that is what Joel claims.
)See you,
)Peter
Percedol:
How should it be detected?
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 10:52:54 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
) Percedol:
) It's a path of inner development.
) It's analogue to what the original yoga (not its modern counterfaction)
) was in the past.
) Times have changed and today's yoga is called Anthroposophy.
Walden: Interesting. I know of two W schools where well meaning parents
offered to teach Yoga as a volunteer activity (there was much talk of the
lack of physical education in the schools). In both cases the idea was axed
well before any discussion took place. We were told that Yoga has
absolutely nothing to do with Waldorf Education. One of the Yoga teachers
(a mother in the school) told me after that she was astounded - not only at
the reluctance of the school to let the children learn Yoga - but of the
hostility shown her by the head Anthro in the school for even suggesting it!
The mom was questioned about her family's connection to the school if Yoga
is a big part of their life. She was totally confused and has had little to
do with the place since.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 17:58:04 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
Peter Staudenmaier (pstaud hotmail.com) wrote:
)Hello again critics,
)
)Our lone defender of anthroposophy insists that anthroposophy is not a
)belief system and that attempts to understand it are "demonic".
"Maybe he
) thinks that is a doctrine to understand and to be believed. Which is a
) demonic position!"
Percedol:
"Maybe he
) thinks that is a doctrine to understand and to be believed. Which is a
) demonic position!"
It's the 'belief' part that would be demonic because it makes it just an
abstract knowledge.
He doesn't
)realize that this makes all of his own claims about its content quite
)absurd. He doesn't realize that his description of other interpretations of
)anthroposophy as a "bad distorted way of understanding Anthroposophy" are
)completely meaningless according to his own theory. Most interesting of
all,
)he doesn't realize that his numerous assertions about anthroposophy's
)content obviously violate his own precept. He says, for example, that in
)anthroposophy "there is no such thing called sixth race", and that "Steiner
)used the term 'races' for 'epochs' because he was speaking to an audience
of
)Teosophists who were accustomed with those terms. As soon as he left the
)Teosophical Society he changed Ýit with the word 'epochs'." These
assertions
)are untrue, of course, but that doesn't matter to Percedol, who would
prefer
)that we discuss his private mental reality instead of discussing actually
)existing anthroposophy. It's all so familiar; whenever critics point out
)what anthroposophists in the real world have believed, said, written, and
)done, people like Percedol, Joel, etc etc try to "defend" anthroposophy by
)denying its existence. And they call this willful ignorance "higher
)knowledge".... For those of us who would like to discuss the belief system
)formerly known as anthroposophy, would the real anthroposophists please
)stand up?
)
)Peter Staudenmaier
Percedol:
There is no belief system called A. because A. is not a belief system.
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 18:02:32 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net) wrote:
)
))))
)))) Sharon: If Anthroposophy isn't a religion, then what could it possibly
)))) be?
)))) A science fiction movie script?
))))
)))
))) Percedol:
))) It's a path of inner development.
))) It's analogue to what the original yoga (not its modern counterfaction)
))) was in the past.
))) Times have changed and today's yoga is called Anthroposophy.
)
)Sharon: Not quite Percedol, according to Steiner, Anthroposophy lies
between
)the Christian path and the Yoga path! Anyway, Yoga is a religion Percedol,
)here's Steiner to explain his Rosicrucianism:
)
)Steiner: "Through definite methods the pupil is taught to develop in
himself
)the wisdom which exists in germ in every human being.
)This is the way which was given through the Founder of the Rosicrucian
)esoteric stream known to the outer world as Christian Rosenkreutz. It is
not
)an un-Christian way, rather is it a Christian path adapted to modern
)conditions, and lies between the actual Christian path and the Yoga path.
)This path had been partially prepared long before the time of Christianity.
)It took on a special form through that great initiate, Dionysius the
)Areopagite, who in the esoteric school of Paul at Athens inaugurated the
)training from which all later esoteric wisdom and training have been
)derived.
)These are the two paths of esoteric training particularly fitted to the
)West. All that is connected with our culture and the life we lead and must
)lead, is lifted up, raised into the principle of initiation through the
)Christian and through the Rosicrucian training."
)
)(Steiner, R. 154 Theosophy of the Rosicrucian. Rudolf Steiner Press London.
)Reprint 1981. Lecture from 1907).
Percedol:
What are you doing? R. is not a religion!
And Yoga is not a religion (repetita iuvant!).
Or please show us how yoga would be a religion!
BTW have you read your quote:
"These are the two paths of esoteric training"
and not religions!
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:40:17 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
G'day Percedol,
A simple way for me to answer this is to ask if you can tell if someone else
has done this inner development or not, perhaps in conversation, possibly
over an extended period
If you can then it is detectable by an external observer. Incidentally,
certainty about this is not essential, a reasonable probability of being
able to detect this is all that I am intersted in.
See you, Peter
)From: Percedol netscape.net
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
)Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 11:07:53 -0400
)
)Peter Farrell (feetapparel hotmail.com) wrote:
)
) )G'day Percedol,
) )do you agree with Joel that this inner development is not detectable by
)an
) )external observer? At least I think that is what Joel claims.
) )See you,
) )Peter
)
)Percedol:
)How should it be detected?
)
)
)__________________________________________________________________
)Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
)Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop Netscape!
)http://shopnow.netscape.com/
)
)Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at
)http://webmail.netscape.com/
)
)
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:02:04 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: The Apocalypse according to Steiner
Hello critics,
a couple months ago Charlie alerted me to the fact that Steiner's book The
Apocalypse of St. John has been translated into English (Anthroposophical
Publishing Company, London, 1958). I've read portions of the original and
have occasionally posted bits of it here; now that I've looked through the
English edition I've found a lot more interesting material on race. The book
is a series of lectures Steiner gave in Nuremberg in June 1908, explaining
his theosophical interpretation of the Apocalypse of John (the last chapter
in the christian bible, also known as Revelations). When I was a Catholic
kid, this was one of my favorite parts of the bible, a veritable acid trip
of wild imagery and fantastic prophecies. Steiner, as usual, takes this
material and runs with it.
A lot of the major themes in the book will sound familiar. Steiner says that
the ancient Hebrews had no concept of individuality, that they "felt secure
in the group-soul" (129), and that this group nature persists among
latter-day Jews: "This blood-relationship assumes the greatest proportions
among the followers of the Old Testament religion." (25) This Jewish
"Folk-Ego" must be overcome through "Christian evolution" (25). "We have
represented it as a high achievement of man that just through Christianity
he has been able to ascend to this concept of the free "I"." (139) In other
words Steiner repeats several of the antisemitic arguments he developed
elsewhere.
On the other hand, Steiner here refers several times to "the
Assyrian-Babylonian-Chaldaic-Egyptian-Hebrew civilization" as part of the
"fifth epoch" (61). This is the first textual reference I have found to
indicate that Steiner may have considered Jews part of the "Aryan root
race", the group which predominates in the "fifth epoch". A number of
anthroposophists on this list have made this claim over the years, but every
time I asked for a citation they had none to offer. I'm now rethinking my
argument that Steiner consistently shared the standard theosophical view on
this question, which held that Jews were the descendants of those Atlanteans
who did not evolve into Aryans.
Another major theme in this book is the "War of All against All" that will
occur between the fifth epoch and the sixth epoch. Comprehending this
apocalyptic event, Steiner says, is crucial in order to "understand the
direction evolution will actually take." (133) The result of this war will
be a basic divergence within humankind between "the good and the evil races"
(92); this divergence will be "expressed in the features" of people in the
sixth epoch (139). This new racial dispensation will correspond to the
distinction between christians and non-christians, with "the good race" of
believeing christians evolving onward while "the evil race" of non-believers
whithers: after the trials of the sixth epoch, "the earth with all its
beings will pass into a kind of spiritual condition, with the exception of
those who refuse to receive the Christ-principle" (186).
Steiner further associates "the good race" with anthroposophists and "the
evil race" with those who reject anthroposophy. "The souls now living in
bodies which have the heart to hear and feel Anthroposophy, are now
preparing themselves to live in bodies in the future in which power will be
given them to serve their fellow creatures" (206). It is only "those who
have reached the necessary degree of maturity, who have taken the
Christ-principle into themselves and allowed it to become active" who will
partake in the further evolution of humanity. (152) As always in Steiner's
evolutionary scheme, an elite few will advance and face off with the forces
of evil, who in turn will be physically distinct from the forces of good:
"The most capable must be chosen and prepared to live beyond the period of
the great War of All against All when men will confront those who bear in
their countenances the sign of evil" (142).
"All those will participate in this marriage [of intellect and spirit] who
take into themselves the impulse of Christ Jesus and they will form the
great brotherhood which will survive the great War, which will experience
enmity and persecution, but will provide the foundation for the good race.
After this great War has brought out the animal nature in those who have
remained in the old forms, the good race will arise, and this race will
carry over into the future that which is to be the spiritually elevated
culture in that future epoch." (135)
I'll post more tomorrow about "race-development".
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:53:12 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: planning to attend an open house
) I also would urge Allen to ask himself : Do I believe in the tenets of
) Anthroposophy enough to want my child "educated" according to them? Do I
) understand that Waldorf schools are the parochial schools of
Anthroposophy,
) and am I comfortable with that?
)
) You cannot separate Anthroposophy and Waldorf -- they are inextricably
) related and intertwined.
)
) Knowing that ahead of time can save lots of heartache later.
)
) Lisa
Walden:
Thank-you, Lisa. Amen
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 718
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 13:24:23 -0400
From: Gary Bonhiver (gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Re: Digest for waldorf-critics topica.com, issue 718
on 5/3/02 1:01 PM, Michelle Hamilton at michelle_hamilton hp.com wrote:
) hi,
)
) i've been magically added back to this list-serv; i did not opt-in. please
) remove me from your list.
)
) thanks,
) m
How odd. Topica recently made some changes to their list software...I
wonder if they messed up some how. Anyway, I've removed Michelle.
...Gary Bonhiver
www.waldorfcritics.org Webmaster
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 20:27:20 +0000
From: Marja (marja.viita luukku.com)
Subject: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
Has someone following booklet:
"UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue"
Anthros has made exhibition, which travel from country to country. They
have named it : "The UNESCO Exhibition"
I've visited the exhibition, but that booklet I don't have.
In the exhibition there is about 40 big posters. None of them is telling
about UNESCO's activities. They are full of anthro-propaganda.
Exhibitions are arranged locally by anthros and local UNESCO persons
have nothing to do with this.
I was told that originally the exhibition was erected in New York in
some UNESCO happening some 10 years ago. After that exhibition has been
shown monthly in different places.
Does anyone know more details of this exhibition? And why UNESCO lets
anthros to use UNESCO's name?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 23:53:08 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
Marja wrote:
)
) Has someone following booklet:
) "UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue"
)
) Anthros has made exhibition, which travel from country to country. They
) have named it : "The UNESCO Exhibition"
)
) I've visited the exhibition, but that booklet I don't have.
) In the exhibition there is about 40 big posters. None of them is telling
)
) about UNESCO's activities. They are full of anthro-propaganda.
) Exhibitions are arranged locally by anthros and local UNESCO persons
) have nothing to do with this.
)
) I was told that originally the exhibition was erected in New York in
) some UNESCO happening some 10 years ago. After that exhibition has been
) shown monthly in different places.
)
) Does anyone know more details of this exhibition? And why UNESCO lets
) anthros to use UNESCO's name?
)
Percedol:
'In 1994, the UNESCO (United Nations Educational, Scientific, and
Cultural Organization) honored Waldorf education with a special
exhibition for its contributions to the world. The establishment of the
Independent Waldorf School may one day be regarded as one of the most
significant initiatives of the twentieth century.'
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 23:59:49 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
) Does anyone know more details of this exhibition? And why UNESCO lets
) anthros to use UNESCO's name?
)
Percedol:
[http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/postings/SN-010626-on-untruths.htm]
[Sune]: Your expressed opinion is 'interesting', in view of the
expressed opinion by former German Chancellor Willy Brandt that "The
advent of the Wald. Schools" in his opinion are "the greatest
contribution to world peace and understanding of the {20th] century."
(http://www.waldorf-sandiego.org/wdhistory.htm).
Dan:
People who come into contact with Waldorf schools rarely have
any contact with the racial doctrines. I guess I was just lucky to
open a Steiner book to such a page.
'Lucky'? The minimal impact comments such at the one you ofthe refer to
(from 1988) have had on WS:s, indicates the Wald movement has taken and
understood them for what they are; marginal and with no essential
implications for Waldorf education.
Me [Sune]:
One may also get a perspective of it from what Tarjei pointed out
on 21 May on this list: 'During the apartheid regime in South
Africa, the Waldorf schools were the only ones where black and
white students attended the same classes,
Dan:
Sharon, who was in South Africa at the time, challenged Tarjei to
back up the assertion that this was anything more than tokenism.
No back-up data has been forthcoming.
Tarjei has answered on this.
Me [Sune]:
and the school for Waldorf teacher training in Cape Town, The
Novalis Institute (http://www.ideas-net.de/novalis/), was praised
by UNESCO as an organization of tremendous consequence in the
conquest of apartheid. (Tolerance: The Treshold of Peace. A
Teaching/Learning Guide for Education for Peace, Human Right
and Democracy, UNESCO 1994.)'
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 00:10:56 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Percedol's delirium
Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
)
) )Percedol:
) )No matter what you post the spirit is not limited by the soul: whether
) )is
) )sentient, rational or consciousness!
) )You might spare us this delirium!!!
)
) You can't accuse someone else of "distorting" a book that you haven't
) read,
) Percedol. Everything you said in your reply is the result of your
) ignorance
) of Steiner's work. I once again recommend that you familiarize yourself
) with
) that work if you would like to discuss it.
)
) Peter S.
Percedol:
I read the book. It was translated in Italian and published by the
Anthroposophical Editor since 1963. It's a very interesting cycle,
especially considering I always had a special interest for the John's
Apocalypse.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 00:15:27 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: *thinkers* report
Sarina McDonald wrote:
) An interesting anecdote:
)
) My friend the PhD in Philosophy, when asked if he knew much about
) Steiner, said "Isn't he that Anthro-something guy? Nope, don't know
) much about him."
)
) I suppose it's possible that he never deserved his PhD, but he seems
) to know an awful lot about a great many other (obscure)
) philosophers...
)
) Sarina
Percedol:
In Italy official culture did a good job to put to silence the figure
and work of Steiner. They were quite successful.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 00:45:14 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
Marja wrote:
)
) Has someone following booklet:
) "UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue"
)
) Anthros has made exhibition, which travel from country to country. They
) have named it : "The UNESCO Exhibition"
)
) I've visited the exhibition, but that booklet I don't have.
) In the exhibition there is about 40 big posters. None of them is telling
)
) about UNESCO's activities. They are full of anthro-propaganda.
) Exhibitions are arranged locally by anthros and local UNESCO persons
) have nothing to do with this.
)
) I was told that originally the exhibition was erected in New York in
) some UNESCO happening some 10 years ago. After that exhibition has been
) shown monthly in different places.
)
) Does anyone know more details of this exhibition? And why UNESCO lets
) anthros to use UNESCO's name?
)
Percedol:
[http://www.uncletaz.com/waage/waagenglish1.html]
INDIVIDUAL - NOT RACE
According to Staudenmaier, Steiner and his followers hold the opinion
that the Aborigines would best serve humanity by dying out. In the real
world of the anthroposophical movement, these people have influenced
several Waldorf schools in Australia with their culture and their
myths.10 Inone such school, the majority of teachers and students are
Aborigines.11 This is not unique. Contrary to what should be expected
from a racist Nazi-ideology, Anthroposophy has had its break-through in
schools and other social institutions in most of the world. There are
Waldorf schools in Israel, Egypt, in the second largest Indian
reservation in America (the Sioux), in severalSouth American countries
(among other things, anthroposophists are making a considerable effort
on behalf of street children in Rio de Janeiro), India, Korea, Japan,
South Africa and other African countries, Russia, Mongolia, and
Kazakhstan - just to mention some of the "exotic" places.12 The
curriculum is adapted to local cultural traditions, and at the same time
endeavors to make the students suited to live in a modern, globalized
world. During the apartheid regime in South Africa,
the Waldorf schools were the only ones where black and white students
attended the same classes, and the school for Waldorf teacher training
in Cape Town, The Novalis Institute, was praised by UNESCO as an
organization of tremendous consequence in the conquest of apartheid.13
The readers of Humanist don't get to know about any of this.
Rudolf Steiner's own fundamental attitude to racism, races, and
cultural diversity comes to expression when he repeatedly emphasizes how
harmful it is for those who seek "knowledge of higher worlds" to harbor
racial prejudices or to judge human beings on the basis of gender, race,
etc. The person who should fall for this temptation will never achieve
insight.14 Furthermore, he writes that racial differences are in the
process of being wiped out; in a not too far distant future
they will be completely irrelevant.15 The relationship between the
single individual and his or her "race" or culture is, for Steiner,
regulated by the laws of reincarnation. The individual is born into
different races and cultures.16
We may think it weird or nonsensical to talk about some kind of
"spiritual insight" and "higher worlds"; we may hold the opinion that
race has never had any significance by itself - it has for the
most part gained significance through people's prejudices; and we may
label belief in reincarnation as confused and absurd. But someone who
claims that "spiritual insight" is possible and worthy of pursuit, and
that reincarnation is a part of human existence, cannot be called a
racist when he insists that racism is a hindrance to insight and that
race is so secondary that it is not only disappearing; it is best
compared to changing clothes for the individual. It is not complexion or
"blood" that gives value to the individual for Steiner, but his or her
humanity - and this is found in everyone, regardless of "race." This is
a fundamental anti-racist viewpoint and no "racist
philosophy" like what is served to the readers of Humanist.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 17:58:14 -0700
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: RE: *thinkers* report
On 4 May 2002, Percedol netscape.net wrote:
) In Italy official culture did a good job to put to silence the figure
) and work of Steiner. They were quite successful.
What is official culture?
Steve Premo
Santa Cruz, California
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 02:56:34 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: *thinkers* report
Steve Premo wrote:
) On 4 May 2002, Percedol netscape.net wrote:
)
) ) In Italy official culture did a good job to put to silence the figure
) ) and work of Steiner. They were quite successful.
)
) What is official culture?
) Steve Premo
) Santa Cruz, California
) http://www.premofine.com
)
Percedol:
To give an example let's take Guenon. Until a few years ago in Italy he
was not mentioned anywhere and his books were only published by small
small independent editors. No mainstream intellectuals wrote about him.
Eventually, a few years ago, an important publisher, "Adelphi" started
publishing his books. From then he was "cleared" or accepted by
mainstream intellectuals who began to show an interest for his work.
Steiner, despite his huge work deserved only a few lines in the major
encyclopedia. Only a few years ago one of the major editors published
his "Philosophy of Freedom" (the copyrights of Steiner's books expired
years ago and now anybody can print his works in Italy). There are a few
articles on major newspapers, etc. but still...
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 08:01:07 +0200
From: bell d jour (bdjour1 juno.com)
Subject: Re: *thinkers* report
Hi All,
Are the studies mentioned in the passage below referenced in any way? In
Germany the Waldorf Schools are notorious for conducting studies on
themselves and "discovering" that they are better than other schools.
But when asked they can never present the documentation to support their
beliefs. The truth of the matter is quite different, I believe. In
Bavaria and Baden-Wuerttemberg, the pass rate in the Abitur for Waldorf
School students is less than one third that of the state schools. One
thing that German Waldorf Schools do is to prevent as many students as
possible from taking the Abitur or to shuffle Abitur-taking students all
into one area school, so that only one Waldorf school ends up with bad
stats. Sort of like taking turns with the bad apples.
The passage below reads like one of the recruiting pamphlets for the
Waldorf Schools. Basically, in Germany, Waldorf School students fall
into four categories: (1) children of true believers; (2) juvenile
delinquents who have been expelled from every other type of school; (3) a
very small number of good students whose parents have been duped by the
cult's propaganda; and (4) the largest category, the stupid and lazy
offspring of wealthy parents. There is probably no school less equipped
to deal with problem children or the unmotivated and shiftless than a
Waldorf School. It is slacker heaven.
Never believe anything a Waldorf School representative or an
Anthroposophist tells you. They are without a doubt the most dishonest
group of people I have ever encountered. I find it difficult to believe
that a Waldorf School could ever present any type of accurate statistics
because they have an almost religious zeal for NOT keeping records. You
should see how they go meshugannah if you try to take notes durring one
of their 4-hour Gesamtkonferenz meetings. And yes, they are racists and
anti-Semites. You won't find a non-Aryan student in a German Waldorf
school.
Bob DeJournette
On Fri, 03 May 2002 07:39:27 +0000 Peter Farrell
(feetapparel hotmail.com) writes:
) Thanks to Walden for a very interesting article. I have extracted one
) part
) of a paragraph that I think is interesting. Here goes.
)
) The Rudolf Steiner schools are not only successful in themselves.
) The
) educational results of the pupils
) who have attended them in Germany are also impressive. This is
) already
) reflected in the fact that in 1990
) almost twice as many pupils of Rudolf Steiner schools (57.5%)
) attained the
) qualification necessary for
) university studies than pupils of the same year attending state
) schools;20
) and this despite the fact that their work
) had not been sanctioned for twelve years by marks. An earlier
) quantitative
) survey of former German pupils of
) the Rudolf Steiner schools (born in the year 1940/41) revealed
) significant
) differences between this group and a
) control group in the following areas: higher geographical and social
)
) mobility; more pronounced leisure
) activities in the areas of reading, interest in art, practice of a
) musical
) instrument and ability in craftwork; and an
) interest in further training.21 A recent qualitative study of the
) educational biographies of former pupils of a
) Rudolf Steiner school with a double academic and professional
) curriculum
) (Hibernia School at Herm,
) Germany) also showed that these pupils were better equipped to face
) the
) challenge of life and, in particular,
) more capable of dealing with technical tasks. They showed greater
) self-confidence and a wider range of
) interests, were open to new ideas and were particularly willing to
) accept
) social responsibility.22 The Rudolf
) Steiner school investigated in that case revealed all the central
) characteristics of a good school: (a) childoriented
) and methodically competent teachers; (b) a harmonious school style
) guaranteed by agreement on the
) basic pedagogical principles; (c) permanent reflection on the
) teachers own
) on at educational conferences
) and advanced training courses; and (d) an awareness of continuity
) through
) the creation of a school tradition.
)
)
) End quote.
)
) I should tell you that the article is by no means flattering to
) Rudolf
) Steiner, nor does it seem to me to be one sided. I would like to see
) some
) more of the references from which the conclusions referred to above
) come.
) Anyone have access to any of this stuff.
)
) Peter Farrell
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
) http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
)
)
)
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 00:48:37 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: *thinkers* report
Walden:
I will apologize now if this is considered a waste of space. I found the
following article a while back and it has always bothered me. Many people -
parents, teachers and especially children are having a difficult time in
life after their Waldorf experience. I have seen too much pain in too many
people. This article is from a site which defends SWA and mocks those who
feel the real pain associated with this occult movement. To be proud of
one's religious conviction is one thing - to mock those in pain is quite
another. For what it is worth:
Cult Victim Needing Help
On January 26 1999, I decided to subscribe to Dan Dugan's Waldorf Critics
List which is featured on the PLANS website. Judging from the content of
this website, which is dedicated not only to criticism of Waldorf education,
classroom activities, curriculum and so on, but to the brown-baiting
nazification of Rudolf Steiner and the portrayal of the anthroposophical
movement as a brainwashing cult, I decided to introduce myself as a cult
victim asking for help. One of the critics accused me later of having
crashed the party under false pretenses by pretending to be something I
wasn't, but I disagree. Judge for yourselves:
Dear fellow subscribers,
I wonder if someone may be able to tell me where to get the help I need to
get out of the Steiner-cult. To begin with, I would like to talk to an exit
counsellor and then seek therapy. I don't know if there are such exit
counsellors here in Norway, so I was hoping with this post to be directed to
one in my area.
I have been a victim of the Steiner-cult for a very long time - since
childhood. When I now want to get out at age fifty, a deprogrammer may be
called for, but I don't know how to locate one, and I'm very afraid of the
whole thing.
In the late 1950's, my mother was was exposed to Anthroposophy by the
religious aspect of it by starting off with "Theosophy." She also applied it
in her artistic work, first as an actress, later as a music teacher. Through
her influence I I was exposed to all kinds of tales about Lucifer and
Ahriman and life after death as a child, and at age 15 or 16 I began to read
the books off my mother's shelves. The first one was "Cosmic Memory" about
our Atlantean and Lemurian ancestors. It bridged the gap for me between
Darwin and the Bible - a riddle I had subconsciously pondered - and got me
hooked. And before I knew it, I was reading Steiner around the clock about
every topic from the spiritual properties of sugar to elves and gnomes and
Egyptian mysteries, and when I was 18, I had read "Occult Science,"
"Christianity as Mystical Fact," and "Knowledge of the Higher Worlds."
What I did not realize of course, was that my mother and Rudolf Steiner had
molded my view of reality in a coercive way. During the years to come, my
anthroposophical reading habits were rare, occasional, and sporadic while I
tested out other religions, world views, and philosophies. In the late
1980's when I was living in Texas, I purchased a whole library of Steiner
and entered another period of extensive reading. I even joined the
Anthroposophical Society for a while and participated regularly in a local
study group. I had "returned" to Steiner after many years as the only
spiritual teacher I found trustworthy, feeling that all the others had let
me down at some point. Now I recognize how dangerous and deceptive it is to
think like that!
Rudolf Steiner's spiritual ideas about evolution and cosmos are constantly
presenting themselves to me when I meditate or ruminate about life. Does
anyone familiar with therapeutic medicine know about a safe cure? I am
worried about being cured also - which I understand is a common reaction
among long time cult victims who are beginning to wake up. I am confused,
because I don't know if deprogrammers and therapists would want me to
embrace atheism, which has somehow never worked for me before, or if it's ok
to become a Baptist or a Roman Catholic or something. The problem I have
with these religions is that I cannot accept the literal Immaculate
Conception and other irrationalities that I found (to me) acceptable
explanations for in the Cult of Anthroposophy. Maybe the best thing for me
is to denounce Christianity altogether?
If I succeed in mustering enough courage to take the big step away from this
cult, I also need som advice from people with the same experience. How do I
handle anthroposophists who might want to persuade and coerce me back into
the nightmare? What if they start a harassment campaign against me - I know
for a fact that most ex-cultists who have exited (or fled) are subjected to
all kinds of abuses. Should I explain the situation to the police before
taking the drastic step?
And then there are the children. It is always the children who suffer most
from civil wars and cults and all other calamities that we adults bring into
this world. I have a nine year old son in a different city. He attends
Waldorf school there and lives with his mother, who is a totally brainwashed
anthroposophist with the entire Steiner-library in the original German!
She's nuts I tell you, and beyond hope. She'll probably die in the cult just
like my mother did. Anyway, she has full custody of our son, so I guess I'll
never get him out of Waldorf. But perhaps some of my fellow subscribers may
advise me about the deprogramming of children. Because If I don't get out of
this, but die in the cult like my mother, and my son does the same as his
parents, I despair for the hope of the world.
Tarjei Straume
http://www.uncletaz.com/
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 720
-- Topica Digest --
Re: *thinkers* report
By Tjgarr859 aol.com
RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By marja.viita luukku.com
Re: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By mysplum earthlink.net
Australian television programme on Steiner
By kateabooth yahoo.com.au
Re: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Percedol's delirium
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By mysplum earthlink.net
Waage on racism
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: Australian television programme on Steiner
By snell gv.net
Re: *thinkers* report
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Montessori Critics Website
By sarinamcdonald msn.com
Re: Montessori Critics Website
By snell gv.net
RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: *thinkers* report
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Montessori Critics Website
By Percedol netscape.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 07:06:22 EDT
From: Tjgarr859 aol.com
Subject: Re: *thinkers* report
I can see one very naughty Anthro. who won't get to Vulcan in the final epoch
:)
I'm beginning to see a pattern of deep paranoia and deceit. Maybe (some) of
these so called freed thinkers have actually figured out that where there is
smoke there is fire.
Can anyone direct me to the Montessori Critics Web Site?
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 14:26:45 +0000
From: Marja (marja.viita luukku.com)
Subject: RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
Percedol netscape.net wrote:
) [Sune]: Your expressed opinion is 'interesting', in view of the
) expressed opinion by former German Chancellor Willy Brandt that "The
) advent of the Wald. Schools" in his opinion are "the greatest
) contribution to world peace and understanding of the {20th] century."
) (http://www.waldorf-sandiego.org/wdhistory.htm).
My "interesting" opinion is based on:
1. My three visits to the UNESCO Exhibition.
2. Studies of Anthroposophy.
3. Our child has been there (in w-school) several years.
Also King and Queen of Sweden (Carl Gustaf and Silvia) has donated big
amount of personal money to anthros. Italian prime minister Berlusconi
has very strong symphaties for anthtoposophy. Now you told interesting
thing about Willy Brandt. Who will continue the list?
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 10:53:05 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
on 5/3/02 4:59 PM, Percedol netscape.net at Percedol netscape.net wrote:
Tarjei:
) on 21 May on this list: 'During the apartheid regime in South
) Africa, the Waldorf schools were the only ones where black and
) white students attended the same classes,
Sharon: An erroneous statement. We've already discussed it.
)
) Dan:
) Sharon, who was in South Africa at the time, challenged Tarjei to
) back up the assertion that this was anything more than tokenism.
) No back-up data has been forthcoming.
)
) Tarjei has answered on this.
)
) Me [Sune]:
) and the school for Waldorf teacher training in Cape Town, The
) Novalis Institute (http://www.ideas-net.de/novalis/), was praised
) by UNESCO as an organization of tremendous consequence in the
) conquest of apartheid. (Tolerance: The Treshold of Peace. A
) Teaching/Learning Guide for Education for Peace, Human Right
) and Democracy, UNESCO 1994.)'
Sharon: I gagged then when I read the above and I gag now, the Novalis
Institute actually published racist dogma during Apartheid.
Here's a quote about schools in SA from Geoffrey Ahern's Sun at Midnight,
published in 1984:
Ahern: "The three main centres in South Africa are in Johannesburg, Capetown
and Durban. There are only a handful of Dutch members here, the largest
group is English (traditionally, there has been a strong German influence).
There are no black or, it seems, coloured people; I was told this was not
because of conscious exclusion but because of the enormous culture gap. Only
the schools in Capetown have permission to take in coloured or black
children; in one of the schools they are about an eighth each of the total
pupil number; in the other, the portion is much lower. The Camphill movement
sees itself as helping break down racial barriers in South Africa, since it
is possible for whites to work directly on the land. There is nothing in the
General Anthroposophical Society's constitution that directly excludes
racial discrimination, though most members outside South Africa would feel
that its spirit is opposed to Apartheid" (40. Ahern, G. Sun at Midnight, The
Aquarian Press. Wellington, Northamptonshire. 1984).
Sharon: A few comments...My father's organization had members from all
groups so I think the statement about exclusion because of culture gap is
not acceptable. My family was able to mix with people from all of SA's
society, despite the laws. Many of my parent's friends were African and
Indian. We would even eat at each others houses. (Grant it, my parents were
"liberal whites" and sometimes the neighbors called the police when they had
certain guests because intermingling was against the law. Also, my father
had permission to enter areas designated "blacks only" because of his work,
I was one of the few white South Africans who spent time in African
"townships" and rural areas. I visited many African, Indian, Coloured and
White schools and churches with my father). There were many orgs. from
religious to political that had members from all population groups when I
was growing up. Durban has a large Indian and African population, and is a
place that I spent much of my childhood. I was born in Pietermaritzburg. As
I mentioned before, during Apartheid some schools (mainly whites only church
schools) had permission to educate a few "non-white" students, (think Bishop
Tutu's kids). These were private schools. Public schools were segregated,
black children received an inferior education. Many African children did not
go to school in protest. Kids belonging to black leaders and important
Africans had permission to attend "whites only" schools. Some schools took
in children on scholarship as a gesture of good will, others tried to ignore
Apartheid and educate all South Africans despite the laws, then in the
eighties there was a greater attempt, a larger movement, a conscious
thumbing the nose at the government to educate black students for the future
society. Schools all over the country skirted around the law in all sorts of
ways, some "whites-only" schools had segregated classrooms in order to
operate. *But* remember that in South Africa whites are the minority. To be
a true reflection of the population, there should have been mostly black
students with a few whites attending, which was not the case. In the Cape,
there is a large "coloured" population. "Coloured" is one of the categories
Apartheid used to classify South Africans. "Coloureds" were people of mixed
ethnicity, and they had a higher status than blacks. In South Africa, people
were arranged sort of like Steiner organized people. The Africans were
considered spiritually not advanced and were often referred to by the
derogatory term "Kaffirs" meaning "People without souls". (This reminds me
of Steiner's concept of race). Next came Indians. Next Coloured. Then
Chinese. Japanese were considered honorary whites and were allowed to spend
the night in a "whites only" area, whereas permission was needed for
Chinese. Last but not least were Whites, the most advanced of all and God's
chosen. Of course I think this is utter nonsense and I am disgusted by this
idea. My family left SA because of Apartheid's racist politics. One of the
last meals we had in SA was with my mom's childhood friend whose old mother
went and got a shotgun and tried to shoot us as we fled from the dinner
table. She was mad because my parents were anti Apartheid and had asked my
parents if they would let one of us girls marry a black man. They said "Yes"
which is what caused the attack. My sister actually did end up marrying an
African American.
In South Africa, it was and probably still is, very rare for whites to do
any sort of menial labor, which is what Ahern was referring to when he wrote
about breaking down barriers by whites working the land.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 00:54:27 +1000 (EST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Kate=20Booth?= (kateabooth yahoo.com.au)
Subject: Australian television programme on Steiner
Here is the website for the transcript on Steiner from
the programme Compass shown on Australian ABC the
other week.
Thought it may be of interest.
http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s542330.htm
http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 11:05:44 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
) Percedol netscape.net wrote:
)
)) [Sune]: Your expressed opinion is 'interesting', in view of the
)) expressed opinion by former German Chancellor Willy Brandt that "The
)) advent of the Wald. Schools" in his opinion are "the greatest
)) contribution to world peace and understanding of the {20th] century."
)) (http://www.waldorf-sandiego.org/wdhistory.htm).
Sharon: Howling with laughter!
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 10:01:56 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Percedol's delirium
)Percedol:
)I read the book. It was translated in Italian and published by the
)Anthroposophical Editor since 1963. It's a very interesting cycle,
)especially considering I always had a special interest for the John's
)Apocalypse.
In that case, you've got a lot of explaining to do. Please substantiate the
following statements:
"You do not give quotes about this."
"Also it does not makes sense because the inner discipline is equally
possible to any human being because the spirit is not tied to the ethnic
element."
"This is another distortion"
"People who (mis)understood A. like you did? No surprise thay became nazi!
With the ability of distorting things to such level!"
If you have read the book, then you know that my description of it is
accurate, and you need to explain why you pretended otherwise two days ago.
You also need to explain how anyone could possibly "distort" or
"misunderstand" anthroposophy if anthroposophy is not a belief system. Last,
please tell us if you share Steiner's views on "backward races", the "race
of evil", and the "lower forms" of humanity as expressed in this book.
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldís largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 11:16:46 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
on 5/4/02 10:53 AM, mysplum at mysplum earthlink.net wrote:
Some schools took
) in children on scholarship as a gesture of good will,
Sharon: PS. By this I meant, "Christian duty"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 10:57:15 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Waage on racism
Percedol quotes a passage from Norwegian journalist Peter Normann Waage's
response to my article on anthroposophy and ecofascism. Peter Zegers and I
have, of course, replied to this at length; see
www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/anthroposophy_criticism.htm
But perhaps a few more comments are in order.
)INDIVIDUAL - NOT RACE
)According to Staudenmaier, Steiner and his followers hold the opinion
)that the Aborigines would best serve humanity by dying out.
Waage says "according to Staudenmaier" because he has never bothered to
consult Steiner's own writings on the matter. Steiner's apologias for the
European genocide of aboriginal peoples can be found throughout his major
works, including Cosmic Memory, Mission of the Folk Souls, Die Weltraetsel
und die Anthroposophie, Menschheitsentwickelung und Christus-Erkenntnis, and
elsewhere.
)In the real
)world of the anthroposophical movement, these people have influenced
)several Waldorf schools in Australia with their culture and their
)myths.10 Inone such school, the majority of teachers and students are
)Aborigines.11 This is not unique.
Nor is it relevant. My article said nothing at all about Waldorf schools in
Australia (or South Africa, or Norway, etc etc). Waage would like to reduce
"the real world of the anthroposophical movement" to those aspects of that
movement that he finds personally appealing, and pretends that Steiner's
racist teachings are not part of that movement.
)Contrary to what should be expected
)from a racist Nazi-ideology, Anthroposophy has had its break-through in
)schools and other social institutions in most of the world.
"Nazi-ideology" is a dimwitted red herring, since my entire article is built
around the fact that anthroposophy and Nazism were two distinct phenomena.
As for "racist ideology", Waage once again displays his boundless naivete
here. He thinks that racism would somehow have a difficult time finding a
foothold in "most of the world". If only that were true.
)There are
)Waldorf schools in Israel, Egypt, in the second largest Indian
)reservation in America (the Sioux), in severalSouth American countries
)(among other things, anthroposophists are making a considerable effort
) on behalf of street children in Rio de Janeiro), India, Korea, Japan,
)South Africa and other African countries, Russia, Mongolia, and
)Kazakhstan - just to mention some of the "exotic" places.
More irrelevance.
)During the apartheid regime in South Africa,
)the Waldorf schools were the only ones where black and white students
)attended the same classes, and the school for Waldorf teacher training
)in Cape Town, The Novalis Institute, was praised by UNESCO as an
)organization of tremendous consequence in the conquest of apartheid.
Waage gives no concrete citation for this claim, he merely lists the title
of a book published under UNESCO auspices; no page number or anything else.
This is, by the way, typical for his approach. Moreover, his substantive
claim here is demonstrably false, as Percedol already knows. Why do
anthroposophists feel compelled to make up stories about their own
activities?
) Rudolf Steiner's own fundamental attitude to racism, races, and
)cultural diversity comes to expression when he repeatedly emphasizes how
)harmful it is for those who seek "knowledge of higher worlds" to harbor
)racial prejudices or to judge human beings on the basis of gender, race,
)etc.
Another instance of Waage's failure to read Steiner. What "comes to
expression" in such rare passages is hardly Steiner's "fundamental attitude
to racism" but his pragmatic recognition that his message sometimes needed a
bit of sugarcoating. The fundamental teachings are obviously to be found in
the much more numerous explicitly racist passages.
)Furthermore, he writes that racial differences are in the
)process of being wiped out; in a not too far distant future
)they will be completely irrelevant.
Steiner said over and over that this would happen thousands of