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-- Topica Digest --
Re: Preparing to attend Open House in Vancouver
By mysplum earthlink.net
re: planning to attend an open house
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Free Comic Book Day (OT)
By steve premofine.com
anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: Anthroposophy is not a cult
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By feetapparel hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 09:58:21 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Preparing to attend Open House in Vancouver
on 4/29/02 6:30 PM, Allen Clark at allenclark1 hotmail.com wrote:
)
) Any suggestions on questions I should use?
)
) Has anyone on this list had experience with the school in North Vancouver,
) Canada?
Sharon: I've had a couple people from Vancouver say they were not happy with
the school, oddly, one was even married to an Anthroposophic doctor!
Strangely, this particular one is a distant relative of mine!!!! Believe or
not! I can't really speak for them though.
Ask the school if it's a Waldorf school based on Steiner's occult doctrine.
Ask if they believe children reincarnate, and when they believe their
various bodies disperse into their physical body (etheric, astral and I).
Ask if they believe the astral body leaves the physical body in bed when it
sleeps and goes out into the cosmos to drink the forces of planetary beings.
Ask them if they believe that the teacher has karma with the children in
their classes. Ask them what the deeper task of the Anthroposophical
movement is (they should say to prepare people to reincarnate into core
groups spread around the world so that they might instruct humanity in what
to "think, feel, will and do". Ask them if they are sectarian or religion
based, if they say no they are lying. Ask them to explain the Anthroposophic
veiled term "child development". Ask them where Steiner worked before he led
a schism to found his own sect Anthroposophy, (they should say the
German/Austrian section of Blavatsky's Theosophical Society under Besant).
Ask them if Steiner was an occultist. Ask them if they teach Anthroposophy
to children, if they say no, they are lying. Ask them if they teach children
that gnomes are real because Steiner believed they actually exist. He
believed that if children develop a relationship with these beings they
would act as emissaries of higher divine spiritual beings, linking humanity
with the spiritual world. Ask them why the walls are painted certain colors,
their answer should be because Steiner believed that if you devote yourself
to color, you will see through the walls and see spirit beings in the
neighborhood. Depending on which color you devote yourself to depends on
what spirits you would see, color is the external expression of spirit
beings. Ask them what experience Steiner had with children and children's
education. They should reply that he tutored a child with water on the
brain, and thischild's brothers when he was young, before he converted to
Theosophy and lectured exclusively about his religion to adults. Ask them to
show you pictures of Steiner's underground Rosicrucian Temple in Stuttgart.
Ask them to see photos of his first and second Goetheanums (Anthroposophic
temples / world headquarters for Anthroposphy). Ask them if they put dark
haired children by the windows to absorb light. Ask them if they connect
children with Steiner's spirit world while doing Eurythmy. Ask them if
Eurythmy has a language, ask them if it utilizes the Zodiac and numerology.
Ask them to make the gestures of Earth, fire, Water and Air, and to show you
some of the gestures that represent letters of power. Do the children pray
to Steiner's Sun Spirit / the Christ Spirit in the mornings? Do they make
magic circles and light a candle? Do they have to eat certain grains on
certain days depending on the planetary alignments? Do they have an alter in
the classrooms? What Anthro rituals are performed at what times of the year?
Ask them what the Advent Spiral symbolizes. Ask them to tell you the
esoteric meanings of colors. Ask them if the Anthroposophical doctor can be
likened to the Rosicrucian doctors of the middle ages. Ask them if he
prescribes alchemical or Paracelsian-like prescriptions to children. Ask to
see a picture of Steiner's sculpture depicting Ahriman, Lucifer and the
Christ (Steiner's trinity). Ask them if Steiner believed Anthroposophy was a
spiritually complete Rosicrucianism and if Steiner was a believer in
Christian Rosenkreutz. Ask them if Max Hendal who founded the Rosicrucian
Fellowship in CA was a follower of Steiner.
I have a million more, but that should get you started.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 11:04:13 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: re: planning to attend an open house
Allen, from Canada, came onto the list yesterday saying he is planning to
attend an open house at a Waldorf school in North Vancouver, Canada.
Allen requested some questions to ask the school while he is there, or
during an interview. I posted a few, and Sharon posted more.
But I forgot to suggest that Allen also ask the school to more important
things:
*its enrollment versus retention rates. By that, I mean that Allen ought to
talk to the folks there about how many children leave each year from classes
versus how many stay, either each year or for a set period of years. It
would also be illuminating to know the reasons for leaving.
* ask about the school's financial health. We have heard before about
schools that can barely keep their doors open due to a number of factors,
including having each family "pay what they can" and not calling in debts,
etc. It is important to know that a school is going to be there -- and not
to suddenly raise its tuition in a desperate attempt to stay open -- before
enrolling.
I also would urge Allen to ask himself : Do I believe in the tenets of
Anthroposophy enough to want my child "educated" according to them? Do I
understand that Waldorf schools are the parochial schools of Anthroposophy,
and am I comfortable with that?
You cannot separate Anthroposophy and Waldorf -- they are inextricably
related and intertwined.
Knowing that ahead of time can save lots of heartache later.
Lisa
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 08:42:01 -0700
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: Free Comic Book Day (OT)
Hi folks,
This Saturday is Free Comic Book Day all across the country. Free
comics are being distributed at just about every comic book store in
the country, and all the major comic publishers, and many minor
ones, are participating. There are a lot of good comics being given
away for free this Saturday.
I can't tell you how much comics have contributed to my love of
reading, my sense of justice and fairness, and my interest in
science fiction.
More info is available at:
http://www.freecomicbookday.com
--
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Life is just a leap of faith. Spread your arms, and
hold your breath, and always trust your cape." - Guy Clark
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 12:34:31 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
Hello again critics,
Our lone defender of anthroposophy insists that anthroposophy is not a
belief system and that attempts to understand it are "demonic". He doesn't
realize that this makes all of his own claims about its content quite
absurd. He doesn't realize that his description of other interpretations of
anthroposophy as a "bad distorted way of understanding Anthroposophy" are
completely meaningless according to his own theory. Most interesting of all,
he doesn't realize that his numerous assertions about anthroposophy's
content obviously violate his own precept. He says, for example, that in
anthroposophy "there is no such thing called sixth race", and that "Steiner
used the term 'races' for 'epochs' because he was speaking to an audience of
Teosophists who were accustomed with those terms. As soon as he left the
Teosophical Society he changed it with the word 'epochs'." These assertions
are untrue, of course, but that doesn't matter to Percedol, who would prefer
that we discuss his private mental reality instead of discussing actually
existing anthroposophy. It's all so familiar; whenever critics point out
what anthroposophists in the real world have believed, said, written, and
done, people like Percedol, Joel, etc etc try to "defend" anthroposophy by
denying its existence. And they call this willful ignorance "higher
knowledge".... For those of us who would like to discuss the belief system
formerly known as anthroposophy, would the real anthroposophists please
stand up?
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 18:44:26 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
Peter:
)For those of us who would like to discuss the belief system
)formerly known as anthroposophy,
LOL! thanks for the chuckle,
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldís largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 18:03:18 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophy is not a cult
on 4/29/02 3:27 PM, Percedol netscape.net at Percedol netscape.net wrote:
)
) Percedol:
) Rainer Fassbinder, the director did not became a religious follower of
) anything. He actually did beautiful movies. And he was a Waldorf student,
) wasn't he? Not the daughters of our premier became religious followers.
Sharon: Yes, and Pulitzer Prize winning cartoonist Steve Benson is the grand
son of one of the top Mormon leaders (now deceased). Benson grew up to be a
brilliant thinker, one of the best religion satirists alive.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 18:23:07 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
on 4/30/02 10:34 AM, Peter Staudenmaier at pstaud hotmail.com wrote:
It's all so familiar; whenever critics point out
) what anthroposophists in the real world have believed, said, written, and
) done, people like Percedol, Joel, etc etc try to "defend" anthroposophy by
) denying its existence. And they call this willful ignorance "higher
) knowledge".... For those of us who would like to discuss the belief system
) formerly known as anthroposophy, would the real anthroposophists please
) stand up?
Sharon: If Anthroposophy isn't a religion, then what could it possibly be?
A science fiction movie script?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 06:23:27 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
mysplum wrote:
) on 4/30/02 10:34 AM, Peter Staudenmaier at pstaud hotmail.com wrote:
)
) It's all so familiar; whenever critics point out
) ) what anthroposophists in the real world have believed, said, written,
) ) and
) ) done, people like Percedol, Joel, etc etc try to "defend" anthroposophy
) ) by
) ) denying its existence. And they call this willful ignorance "higher
) ) knowledge".... For those of us who would like to discuss the belief
) ) system
) ) formerly known as anthroposophy, would the real anthroposophists please
) ) stand up?
)
) Sharon: If Anthroposophy isn't a religion, then what could it possibly
) be?
) A science fiction movie script?
)
Percedol:
It's a path of inner development.
It's analogue to what the original yoga (not its modern counterfaction)
was in the past.
Times have changed and today's yoga is called Anthroposophy.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 07:04:56 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
G'day Percedol,
do you agree with Joel that this inner development is not detectable by an
external observer? At least I think that is what Joel claims.
See you,
Peter
)From: Percedol netscape.net
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
)Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 06:23:27 +0000
)
)mysplum wrote:
) ) on 4/30/02 10:34 AM, Peter Staudenmaier at pstaud hotmail.com wrote:
) )
) ) It's all so familiar; whenever critics point out
) ) ) what anthroposophists in the real world have believed, said, written,
) ) ) and
) ) ) done, people like Percedol, Joel, etc etc try to "defend"
)anthroposophy
) ) ) by
) ) ) denying its existence. And they call this willful ignorance "higher
) ) ) knowledge".... For those of us who would like to discuss the belief
) ) ) system
) ) ) formerly known as anthroposophy, would the real anthroposophists
)please
) ) ) stand up?
) )
) ) Sharon: If Anthroposophy isn't a religion, then what could it possibly
) ) be?
) ) A science fiction movie script?
) )
)
)Percedol:
)It's a path of inner development.
)It's analogue to what the original yoga (not its modern counterfaction)
)was in the past.
)Times have changed and today's yoga is called Anthroposophy.
)
)
)
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldís largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 717
-- Topica Digest --
Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By feetapparel hotmail.com
The Apocalypse according to Steiner
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: planning to attend an open house
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 08:06:27 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
)))
))) Sharon: If Anthroposophy isn't a religion, then what could it possibly
))) be?
))) A science fiction movie script?
)))
))
)) Percedol:
)) It's a path of inner development.
)) It's analogue to what the original yoga (not its modern counterfaction)
)) was in the past.
)) Times have changed and today's yoga is called Anthroposophy.
Sharon: Not quite Percedol, according to Steiner, Anthroposophy lies between
the Christian path and the Yoga path! Anyway, Yoga is a religion Percedol,
here's Steiner to explain his Rosicrucianism:
Steiner: "Through definite methods the pupil is taught to develop in himself
the wisdom which exists in germ in every human being.
This is the way which was given through the Founder of the Rosicrucian
esoteric stream known to the outer world as Christian Rosenkreutz. It is not
an un-Christian way, rather is it a Christian path adapted to modern
conditions, and lies between the actual Christian path and the Yoga path.
This path had been partially prepared long before the time of Christianity.
It took on a special form through that great initiate, Dionysius the
Areopagite, who in the esoteric school of Paul at Athens inaugurated the
training from which all later esoteric wisdom and training have been
derived.
These are the two paths of esoteric training particularly fitted to the
West. All that is connected with our culture and the life we lead and must
lead, is lifted up, raised into the principle of initiation through the
Christian and through the Rosicrucian training."
(Steiner, R. 154 Theosophy of the Rosicrucian. Rudolf Steiner Press London.
Reprint 1981. Lecture from 1907).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 11:07:53 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
Peter Farrell (feetapparel hotmail.com) wrote:
)G'day Percedol,
)do you agree with Joel that this inner development is not detectable by an
)external observer? At least I think that is what Joel claims.
)See you,
)Peter
Percedol:
How should it be detected?
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 10:52:54 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
) Percedol:
) It's a path of inner development.
) It's analogue to what the original yoga (not its modern counterfaction)
) was in the past.
) Times have changed and today's yoga is called Anthroposophy.
Walden: Interesting. I know of two W schools where well meaning parents
offered to teach Yoga as a volunteer activity (there was much talk of the
lack of physical education in the schools). In both cases the idea was axed
well before any discussion took place. We were told that Yoga has
absolutely nothing to do with Waldorf Education. One of the Yoga teachers
(a mother in the school) told me after that she was astounded - not only at
the reluctance of the school to let the children learn Yoga - but of the
hostility shown her by the head Anthro in the school for even suggesting it!
The mom was questioned about her family's connection to the school if Yoga
is a big part of their life. She was totally confused and has had little to
do with the place since.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 17:58:04 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
Peter Staudenmaier (pstaud hotmail.com) wrote:
)Hello again critics,
)
)Our lone defender of anthroposophy insists that anthroposophy is not a
)belief system and that attempts to understand it are "demonic".
"Maybe he
) thinks that is a doctrine to understand and to be believed. Which is a
) demonic position!"
Percedol:
"Maybe he
) thinks that is a doctrine to understand and to be believed. Which is a
) demonic position!"
It's the 'belief' part that would be demonic because it makes it just
an abstract knowledge.
He doesn't
)realize that this makes all of his own claims about its content quite
)absurd. He doesn't realize that his description of other interpretations of
)anthroposophy as a "bad distorted way of understanding Anthroposophy" are
)completely meaningless according to his own theory. Most interesting of all,
)he doesn't realize that his numerous assertions about anthroposophy's
)content obviously violate his own precept. He says, for example, that in
)anthroposophy "there is no such thing called sixth race", and that "Steiner
)used the term 'races' for 'epochs' because he was speaking to an audience of
)Teosophists who were accustomed with those terms. As soon as he left the
)Teosophical Society he changed Ýit with the word 'epochs'." These assertions
)are untrue, of course, but that doesn't matter to Percedol, who would prefer
)that we discuss his private mental reality instead of discussing actually
)existing anthroposophy. It's all so familiar; whenever critics point out
)what anthroposophists in the real world have believed, said, written, and
)done, people like Percedol, Joel, etc etc try to "defend" anthroposophy by
)denying its existence. And they call this willful ignorance "higher
)knowledge".... For those of us who would like to discuss the belief system
)formerly known as anthroposophy, would the real anthroposophists please
)stand up?
)
)Peter Staudenmaier
Percedol:
There is no belief system called A. because A. is not a belief system.
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 18:02:32 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net) wrote:
)
))))
)))) Sharon: If Anthroposophy isn't a religion, then what could it possibly
)))) be?
)))) A science fiction movie script?
))))
)))
))) Percedol:
))) It's a path of inner development.
))) It's analogue to what the original yoga (not its modern counterfaction)
))) was in the past.
))) Times have changed and today's yoga is called Anthroposophy.
)
)Sharon: Not quite Percedol, according to Steiner, Anthroposophy lies between
)the Christian path and the Yoga path! Anyway, Yoga is a religion Percedol,
)here's Steiner to explain his Rosicrucianism:
)
)Steiner: "Through definite methods the pupil is taught to develop in himself
)the wisdom which exists in germ in every human being.
)This is the way which was given through the Founder of the Rosicrucian
)esoteric stream known to the outer world as Christian Rosenkreutz. It is not
)an un-Christian way, rather is it a Christian path adapted to modern
)conditions, and lies between the actual Christian path and the Yoga path.
)This path had been partially prepared long before the time of Christianity.
)It took on a special form through that great initiate, Dionysius the
)Areopagite, who in the esoteric school of Paul at Athens inaugurated the
)training from which all later esoteric wisdom and training have been
)derived.
)These are the two paths of esoteric training particularly fitted to the
)West. All that is connected with our culture and the life we lead and must
)lead, is lifted up, raised into the principle of initiation through the
)Christian and through the Rosicrucian training."
)
)(Steiner, R. 154 Theosophy of the Rosicrucian. Rudolf Steiner Press London.
)Reprint 1981. Lecture from 1907).
Percedol:
What are you doing? R. is not a religion!
And Yoga is not a religion (repetita iuvant!).
Or please show us how yoga would be a religion!
BTW have you read your quote:
"These are the two paths of esoteric training"
and not religions!
__________________________________________________________________
Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop Netscape!
http://shopnow.netscape.com/
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at
http://webmail.netscape.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:40:17 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
G'day Percedol,
A simple way for me to answer this is to ask if you can tell if someone else
has done this inner development or not, perhaps in conversation, possibly
over an extended period
If you can then it is detectable by an external observer. Incidentally,
certainty about this is not essential, a reasonable probability of being
able to detect this is all that I am intersted in.
See you, Peter
)From: Percedol netscape.net
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
)Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 11:07:53 -0400
)
)Peter Farrell (feetapparel hotmail.com) wrote:
)
) )G'day Percedol,
) )do you agree with Joel that this inner development is not detectable by
)an
) )external observer? At least I think that is what Joel claims.
) )See you,
) )Peter
)
)Percedol:
)How should it be detected?
)
)
)__________________________________________________________________
)Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
)Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop Netscape!
)http://shopnow.netscape.com/
)
)Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at
)http://webmail.netscape.com/
)
)
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:02:04 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: The Apocalypse according to Steiner
Hello critics,
a couple months ago Charlie alerted me to the fact that Steiner's book The
Apocalypse of St. John has been translated into English (Anthroposophical
Publishing Company, London, 1958). I've read portions of the original and
have occasionally posted bits of it here; now that I've looked through the
English edition I've found a lot more interesting material on race. The book
is a series of lectures Steiner gave in Nuremberg in June 1908, explaining
his theosophical interpretation of the Apocalypse of John (the last chapter
in the christian bible, also known as Revelations). When I was a Catholic
kid, this was one of my favorite parts of the bible, a veritable acid trip
of wild imagery and fantastic prophecies. Steiner, as usual, takes this
material and runs with it.
A lot of the major themes in the book will sound familiar. Steiner says that
the ancient Hebrews had no concept of individuality, that they "felt secure
in the group-soul" (129), and that this group nature persists among
latter-day Jews: "This blood-relationship assumes the greatest proportions
among the followers of the Old Testament religion." (25) This Jewish
"Folk-Ego" must be overcome through "Christian evolution" (25). "We have
represented it as a high achievement of man that just through Christianity
he has been able to ascend to this concept of the free "I"." (139) In other
words Steiner repeats several of the antisemitic arguments he developed
elsewhere.
On the other hand, Steiner here refers several times to "the
Assyrian-Babylonian-Chaldaic-Egyptian-Hebrew civilization" as part of the
"fifth epoch" (61). This is the first textual reference I have found to
indicate that Steiner may have considered Jews part of the "Aryan root
race", the group which predominates in the "fifth epoch". A number of
anthroposophists on this list have made this claim over the years, but every
time I asked for a citation they had none to offer. I'm now rethinking my
argument that Steiner consistently shared the standard theosophical view on
this question, which held that Jews were the descendants of those Atlanteans
who did not evolve into Aryans.
Another major theme in this book is the "War of All against All" that will
occur between the fifth epoch and the sixth epoch. Comprehending this
apocalyptic event, Steiner says, is crucial in order to "understand the
direction evolution will actually take." (133) The result of this war will
be a basic divergence within humankind between "the good and the evil races"
(92); this divergence will be "expressed in the features" of people in the
sixth epoch (139). This new racial dispensation will correspond to the
distinction between christians and non-christians, with "the good race" of
believeing christians evolving onward while "the evil race" of non-believers
whithers: after the trials of the sixth epoch, "the earth with all its
beings will pass into a kind of spiritual condition, with the exception of
those who refuse to receive the Christ-principle" (186).
Steiner further associates "the good race" with anthroposophists and "the
evil race" with those who reject anthroposophy. "The souls now living in
bodies which have the heart to hear and feel Anthroposophy, are now
preparing themselves to live in bodies in the future in which power will be
given them to serve their fellow creatures" (206). It is only "those who
have reached the necessary degree of maturity, who have taken the
Christ-principle into themselves and allowed it to become active" who will
partake in the further evolution of humanity. (152) As always in Steiner's
evolutionary scheme, an elite few will advance and face off with the forces
of evil, who in turn will be physically distinct from the forces of good:
"The most capable must be chosen and prepared to live beyond the period of
the great War of All against All when men will confront those who bear in
their countenances the sign of evil" (142).
"All those will participate in this marriage [of intellect and spirit] who
take into themselves the impulse of Christ Jesus and they will form the
great brotherhood which will survive the great War, which will experience
enmity and persecution, but will provide the foundation for the good race.
After this great War has brought out the animal nature in those who have
remained in the old forms, the good race will arise, and this race will
carry over into the future that which is to be the spiritually elevated
culture in that future epoch." (135)
I'll post more tomorrow about "race-development".
Peter S.
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:53:12 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: planning to attend an open house
) I also would urge Allen to ask himself : Do I believe in the tenets of
) Anthroposophy enough to want my child "educated" according to them? Do I
) understand that Waldorf schools are the parochial schools of
Anthroposophy,
) and am I comfortable with that?
)
) You cannot separate Anthroposophy and Waldorf -- they are inextricably
) related and intertwined.
)
) Knowing that ahead of time can save lots of heartache later.
)
) Lisa
Walden:
Thank-you, Lisa. Amen
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 718
-- Topica Digest --
Steiner on "the evil race"
By pstaud hotmail.com
school board meeting in Sebastopol
By dan dandugan.com
Zodiac Farming
By bdjour1 juno.com
RE: Steiner on "the evil race"
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Zodiac Farming
By marja.viita luukku.com
Re: Steiner on "the evil race"
By Tjgarr859 aol.com
Re: Zodiac Farming
By bdjour1 juno.com
*thinkers* report
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: *thinkers* report
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: *thinkers* report
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Questions to ask the school - was Re: anthroposophy is not
anthroposophy
By willow.firesong creative-interweb.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 11:16:21 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Steiner on "the evil race"
Yesterday I described Steiner's prediction, in The Apocalypse of St. John,
that "in the sixth epoch men will show good and evil in their faces" (145)
because humanity will divide into "the good race" (141) and "the race of
evil" (90). This new racial dispensation will be different, Steiner says,
from the present concept of race which is derived from Atlantis and Lemuria;
but it will retain the chief features of anthroposophical race theory,
namely assigning specific spiritual-evolutionary tasks to specific racial
and ethnic groups. Here is a passage that brings together Steiner's
superficially 'anti-racist' rhetoric ("from every nation") with his
fundamentally racist framework:
"We are now beginning to comprehend the spiritual world from our immediately
present intellectual civilization. It is the aim of true Anthroposophy, from
out of the present intellectual standards, to comprehend the spiritual
world, and to gather together those who can understand the call to
spiritualize the world. These will not form a separate colony but will be
gathered from every nation and will gradually pass into the sixth age, that
is to say, not yet beyond the great War, but primarily into the sixth age,
for necessities still exist which are connected with old race ties. In our
epoch, races and civilizations are still intermingled. The true idea of race
has lost its meaning but it still plays a certain part. It is quite
impossible at present for every mission to be carried out equally by every
people. Certain nations are predestined to carry out a particular mission.
The nations which today are the vehicles of Western civilization were chosen
to lead the fifth age to its zenith; they were the nations who were to
develop the intellect." (133-4)
Steiner also offers a brief recapitulation of the Aryan myth, without using
the term Aryan (although the translator does, in an explanatory note on p.
177), and summarizes his doctrine of small "gifted" elect groups advancing
racially while the rest decline. He writes of "a migration of people
starting from there [Atlantis] and going towards the East and from it a
number of tribes proceeding, which then populate Europe. All that is
contained in the population of Europe originated in this way. The most
gifted portion of the Atlanteans wandered towards central Asia; from there
proceeded the various civilizations up to our own, as we have described. So
we see that our present civilization originated in a small group of
Atlanteans." (140)
But not all races are so lucky. "It was in the fifth stage when this
emigration began; so that the specially chosen population of Atlantis which
lies at the foundation of our culture is taken from the fifth Atlantean
race, for in Atlantis we may speak of races. A sixth and a seventh followed.
These were, so to speak, the lukewarm races. They also survived the great
flood but there was no living sprouting force in them. They were related to
the fifth Atlantean civilization somewhat as the bark which is lignified and
hardened is related to the sappy stem. These two races which followed the
actual root-race were incapable of developing, they were overripe, so to
speak. You may still se stragglers of these old overripe races today,
especially among the Chinese." (140) Steiner then explains that these
racially inferior groups who are incapable of further development will not
be able to join "the good race" after "the War of All against All". (141)
All of this is simply the logical extension of anthroposophy's doctrine that
there are "more developed bodies" with certain racial and ethnic
characteristics which will be "developed higher and higher in future ages"
as the necessary counterpart to spiritual evolution. (206) But those
unfortunates who are stuck in less developed bodies, i.e. in inferior races,
will form "the race of evil" which is destined for destruction. Indeed
cosmic evolution, according to Steiner, functions in this way so that "that
might be destroyed which is not worthy to take part in the ascent of
humanity." (89) Anthroposophy is simply spiritualized Social Darwinism:
"Humanity has risen by throwing out the lower forms in order to purify
itself and it will rise still higher by separating another kingdom of
nature, the kingdom of the evil race. Thus mankind rises upward." (84)
In light of stark pronouncements like this one, it isn't surprising that so
many anthroposophists ended up sympathizing with and cooperating with
Nazism's attempt to "purify itself" by "throwing out the lower forms" which
were not "worthy to take part in the ascent of humanity." I will post more
later about Steiner's account of "race-development" and its relationship to
"soul-development" as outlined in this book.
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 10:40:27 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: school board meeting in Sebastopol
I drove over three hours round-trip to speak for two minutes at the
Twin Hills Union School District near Sebastopol, CA. A group led by
the Superintendent of Schools is promoting a Waldorf charter. This
area already has a Waldorf charter in Sebastopol, and a private
Waldorf school (Willow Wood) that's going out of business. Since they
can't make it on their own, they're going to get the taxpayers to pay
for it. SunRidge Charter School will be in the same buildings that
the private Waldorf school was in. Of course there's no
relationship... (it's illegal to convert a private school to a
charter).
The hearing was stacked. The Waldorf people knew about it, but the
community in general wasn't informed about it. There were over 60
people who wanted to speak in favor of the school, and five who spoke
against it, including this outside agitator. I told them Waldorf was
entirely the creation of Steiner's Anthroposophy, all the resource
materials came from Anthroposophy, and that the teacher training was
all in Anthroposophical institutitions. I asked that the 50-page
article packets I gave to the board and to their lawyer be entered
into the record. I suggested if they wanted an executive summary,
read the article "Are Rudolf Steiner's Waldorf Schools
Non-Sectarian?" and told the crowd that it was available on our web
site. I suggested that the lawyer read Barker's letter to the
Sacramento School Board, and the San Diego counsel's letter to their
school board, both also on the web site. I told them public Waldorf
schools violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, and
the California Constitution, which is even more strict. I suggested
that they save up money for when we will sue them.
In a bizarre twist, a woman suggested that if people really wanted to
know about cults, they should read Margaret Singer's "Cults in Our
Midst." She said real cult experts would have nothing to do with the
allegations on "Dan Dugan's web site." I guess she didn't notice that
Singer's book is in the PLANS bookstore.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 19:52:49 +0200
From: bell d jour (bdjour1 juno.com)
Subject: Zodiac Farming
Hi All,
You might be interested in an article entitled "Mystic Farmers Get Grants
for Zodiac Growing" that appeared in the Sunday, April 28 edition of The
London Times. Seems that in addition to scamming American taxpayers to
pay for their cult schools the Waldofers are also getting British
taxpayers to foot the bill for their bizarre farming techniques, such as
burying cow horns in fields so that they will soak up "Earth energies."
One part of the article I thought was very telling was the statement:
"Each farm is treated as a self-contained evolving organism where output
from the outside world is kept to a minimum." That may be a description
of a "bio-dynamic" farm, but it also strikes me as a pretty accurate
description of a Waldorf school. It's much easier to live in a fantasy
world if you never have contact with the real world.
Bob DeJournette
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 16:35:14 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Steiner on "the evil race"
Peter Staudenmaier (pstaud hotmail.com) wrote:
)Yesterday I described Steiner's prediction, in The Apocalypse of St. John,
)that "in the sixth epoch men will show good and evil in their faces" (145)
)because humanity will divide into "the good race" (141) and "the race of
)evil" (90). This new racial dispensation will be different, Steiner says,
)from the present concept of race which is derived from Atlantis and Lemuria;
)but it will retain the chief features of anthroposophical race theory,
)namely assigning specific spiritual-evolutionary tasks to specific racial
)and ethnic groups. Here is a passage that brings together Steiner's
)superficially 'anti-racist' rhetoric ("from every nation") with his
)fundamentally racist framework:
)
)"We are now beginning to comprehend the spiritual world from our immediately
)present intellectual civilization. It is the aim of true Anthroposophy, from
)out of the present intellectual standards, to comprehend the spiritual
)world, and to gather together those who can understand the call to
)spiritualize the world. These will not form a separate colony but will be
)gathered from every nation
Percedol:
And this means that each individual from any part of the world and
from any nation may turn to good or to evil. It's a very individual
choice.
and will gradually pass into the sixth age, that
)is to say, not yet beyond the great War, but primarily into the sixth age,
)for necessities still exist which are connected with old race ties. In our
)epoch, races and civilizations are still intermingled. The true idea of race
)has lost its meaning but it still plays a certain part. It is quite
)impossible at present for every mission to be carried out equally by every
)people. Certain nations are predestined to carry out a particular mission.
)The nations which today are the vehicles of Western civilization were chosen
)to lead the fifth age to its zenith; they were the nations who were to
)develop the intellect." (133-4)
Percedol:
And since these nations are quite evidently failing that mission, who
will continue it if they totally fail?
)
)Steiner also offers a brief recapitulation of the Aryan myth, without using
)the term Aryan (although the translator does, in an explanatory note on p.
)177), and summarizes his doctrine of small "gifted" elect groups advancing
)racially while the rest decline. He writes of "a migration of people
)starting from there [Atlantis] and going towards the East and from it a
)number of tribes proceeding, which then populate Europe. All that is
)contained in the population of Europe originated in this way. The most
)gifted portion of the Atlanteans wandered towards central Asia; from there
)proceeded the various civilizations up to our own, as we have described. So
)we see that our present civilization originated in a small group of
)Atlanteans." (140)
)
)But not all races are so lucky. "It was in the fifth stage when this
)emigration began; so that the specially chosen population of Atlantis which
)lies at the foundation of our culture is taken from the fifth Atlantean
)race, for in Atlantis we may speak of races. A sixth and a seventh followed.
)These were, so to speak, the lukewarm races. They also survived the great
)flood but there was no living sprouting force in them. They were related to
)the fifth Atlantean civilization somewhat as the bark which is lignified and
)hardened is related to the sappy stem. These two races which followed the
)actual root-race were incapable of developing, they were overripe, so to
)speak. You may still se stragglers of these old overripe races today,
)especially among the Chinese." (140) Steiner then explains that these
)racially inferior groups who are incapable of further development will not
)be able to join "the good race" after "the War of All against All". (141)
Percedol:
You do not give quotes about this. According to your comment the
entire Mongolian (because if I remember correctli Chinese and
Japanese would belong to earlier times in Atlantis) nation would go
dark. Then how would the good ones come out of every nation?
)
)All of this is simply the logical extension of anthroposophy's doctrine that
)there are "more developed bodies" with certain racial and ethnic
)characteristics which will be "developed higher and higher in future ages"
)as the necessary counterpart to spiritual evolution. (206) But those
)unfortunates who are stuck in less developed bodies, i.e. in inferior races,
)will form "the race of evil" which is destined for destruction.
Percedol:
This does not make sense! In your comment you let understand that the
choice to become good depends on the racial background. This implies
a total determinism, i.e. there is no way to become part of the good
ones if I am an Asian, etc. It is then in contrast with the fact that
people from all nations will choose good or evil, disregarding the
ethnic background. Also it does not makes sense because the inner
discipline is equally possible to any human being because the spirit
is not tied to the ethnic element. Anybody can develop the spiritual
self. Also it is described in many lectures that many of the evil
ones will still be rescued in future times. Only in much further
future those who will still be bound to evil will face a different
evolution.
Indeed
)cosmic evolution, according to Steiner, functions in this way so that "that
)might be destroyed which is not worthy to take part in the ascent of
)humanity." (89)
Percedol:
This is another distortion: those who fall down are those who permit
others to go up. Those who went up will have to help them to move up.
They moved up thanks to the sacrifice of those who let themselves go
down.
Anthroposophy is simply spiritualized Social Darwinism:
)"Humanity has risen by throwing out the lower forms in order to purify
)itself and it will rise still higher by separating another kingdom of
)nature, the kingdom of the evil race. Thus mankind rises upward." (84)
Percedol:
Because man will have to liberate the kingdoms of nature!
)
)In light of stark pronouncements like this one, it isn't surprising that so
)many anthroposophists ended up sympathizing with and cooperating with
)Nazism's attempt to "purify itself" by "throwing out the lower forms" which
)were not "worthy to take part in the ascent of humanity."
Percedol:
People who (mis)understood A. like you did? No surprise thay became
nazi! With the ability of distorting things to such level!
I will post more
)later about Steiner's account of "race-development" and its relationship to
)"soul-development" as outlined in this book.
)
Percedol:
No matter what you post the spirit is not limited by the soul:
whether is sentient, rational or consciousness!
You might spare us this delirium!!!
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 16:50:32 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
on 5/1/02 3:02 PM, Percedol netscape.net at Percedol netscape.net wrote:
)Steiner: "These are the two paths of esoteric training particularly fitted to
the West. All that is connected with our culture and the life we lead and
must lead, is lifted up, raised into the principle of initiation through the
Christian and through the Rosicrucian training."
))
)) (Steiner, R. 154 Theosophy of the Rosicrucian. Rudolf Steiner Press London..
)) Reprint 1981. Lecture from 1907).
)
) Percedol:
) What are you doing? R. is not a religion!
Sharon: Of course Rosicrucianism is a religion.
)
) And Yoga is not a religion (repetita iuvant!).
) Or please show us how yoga would be a religion!
Sharon: Oh please Percedol, go to the library and do some reading. Are you
trained in methods to psychologically break down a rational thinker, or are
you just in need of a trip to the library? The name Yoga refers to a school
of thought within Hinduism or a prescription for attaining inner peace and
equilibrium (samadhi). When Yoga is capitalized, it refers to the Hindu
religion, and when written in lower case it has to do with the state known
as samadhi. Yoga is a fully articulated metaphysical system, one of six
orthodox schools of Hinduism. The guiding doctrine of Yoga was compiled by
Patanjali in the second century BCE. It shares metaphysical principles with
an older, more established system called Samkhya. Followers focus on the
deity Isvara while performing their spiritual exercises to release their
purusa from the afflictions of the body, though Isvara does not play an
active role in the religion and may have been introduced in order to attract
theistically minded Samkhya apostates. Adherents (yogis) who reach the state
of samadhi do not accrue additional karma and will exhaust their karma
acquired in past incarnations, exiting the cycle of earthly rebirths,
entering into the World Soul or Brahman permanently. It is an eight-stage
discipline of spiritual and physical exercises, and can be compared to the
"Noble Eightfold Path" of Buddha. Yogis are believed to have magical and
supernatural powers such as being able to read the thoughts of others, speak
with the dead, know the future and past, become large or small, and
transport themselves anywhere by using their will. (Much like Steiner's
claims. Steiner's path is is a seven-fold discipline, and adherents
ultimately become a universal human.)
)
) BTW have you read your quote:
) "These are the two paths of esoteric training"
) and not religions!
Sharon: I sure hope that you are familiar with the Brittish TV series
"Faulty Towers" because I'd like you to please read the rest of this post as
if Sybil, (Basil Fawlty's wife), was lecturing Mr. Fawlty.......Bas..il! er
I mean Perce..dol..."Esoteric training" is religion! You can learn that in a
basic class on religions! Yes, Percedol, I read the quote, the lecture and
the book in which Steiner recommends two paths to his followers, the
Rosicrucian path being the preferable choice for modern man, and Steiner's
other option, the Christian path. In the Christian Initiation, followers
have to learn to carry their physical body through the world as if it were a
foreign object, a table for example. They must also call forth the "Ordeal
of the Blood" in which certain reddenings appear on the body recalling the
wounds of Christ. They have to die a mystic death where they descend into
hell, etc. Steiner's Rosicrucian path...Percedol... (squalked with
infliction on the ol... deep breath), is more of an external initiation, and
is what Waldorf schools provide. Initiates have to study the elementals of
occultism, learn to read the occult script, prepare the philosopher's Stone
etc. The breathing exercises and absorption of Anthroposophical thoughts
helps prepare the Philosopher's Stone. Now go on Percedol and put that gnome
back in the garden where it belongs.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 21:47:25 +0000
From: Marja (marja.viita luukku.com)
Subject: RE: Zodiac Farming
Which kind of grants bio-dyn farming is getting according to that
article?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 20:13:47 EDT
From: Tjgarr859 aol.com
Subject: Re: Steiner on "the evil race"
Tom
You are obviously a "true believer" and wish to talk yourself back into a
dream world which is your right, however, what the heck does your opinion
truly mean to Waldorf parents who have been duped because these teachers,
etc. insist on keeping this secret.
There is a deliberate pattern of disinformation which needs to be addressed
in the open, or in court.
Can you tell me what the big secret is? Is this another part of Steiner's
(sorry for this word) PLAN to initiate it's believers through non verbal
means?
Again, I have no interest in keeping you or anyone from reaching Vulcan, but
lets all be honest about what this truly is and move on.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 04:34:04 +0200
From: bell d jour (bdjour1 juno.com)
Subject: Re: Zodiac Farming
According to the article the British government is supporting bio-dynamic
farming upwards of 140 million pounds. Some of this amount may be going
to other types of "organic" farming, but it seems that all of the newly
established "bio-dynamic" farms are being subsidized by the state.
Bob DeJournette
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 22:03:45 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: *thinkers* report
Has anyone seen this report on Steiner the *philosopher* and Waldorf:
http://www.ibe.unesco.org/International/Publications/Thinkers/ThinkersPdf/st
einere.pdf
The entire site is interesting but I mention the above for your comment
(Peters, Dan, Sharon, Koala, Percedol - anyone?) It mentions a few stats in
Germany - if anyone has more info I would love to hear about it.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 22:38:44 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: *thinkers* report
----- Original Message -----
From: "walden" (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 10:03 PM
Subject: *thinkers* report
Sorry - wrong URL Here - scroll down to find Steiner:
http://www.ibe.unesco.org/International/Publications/Thinkers/thinhome.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 07:39:27 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: *thinkers* report
Thanks to Walden for a very interesting article. I have extracted one part
of a paragraph that I think is interesting. Here goes.
The Rudolf Steiner schools are not only successful in themselves. The
educational results of the pupils
who have attended them in Germany are also impressive. This is already
reflected in the fact that in 1990
almost twice as many pupils of Rudolf Steiner schools (57.5%) attained the
qualification necessary for
university studies than pupils of the same year attending state schools;20
and this despite the fact that their work
had not been sanctioned for twelve years by marks. An earlier quantitative
survey of former German pupils of
the Rudolf Steiner schools (born in the year 1940/41) revealed significant
differences between this group and a
control group in the following areas: higher geographical and social
mobility; more pronounced leisure
activities in the areas of reading, interest in art, practice of a musical
instrument and ability in craftwork; and an
interest in further training.21 A recent qualitative study of the
educational biographies of former pupils of a
Rudolf Steiner school with a double academic and professional curriculum
(Hibernia School at Herm,
Germany) also showed that these pupils were better equipped to face the
challenge of life and, in particular,
more capable of dealing with technical tasks. They showed greater
self-confidence and a wider range of
interests, were open to new ideas and were particularly willing to accept
social responsibility.22 The Rudolf
Steiner school investigated in that case revealed all the central
characteristics of a good school: (a) childoriented
and methodically competent teachers; (b) a harmonious school style
guaranteed by agreement on the
basic pedagogical principles; (c) permanent reflection on the teachers own
action at educational conferences
and advanced training courses; and (d) an awareness of continuity through
the creation of a school tradition.
End quote.
I should tell you that the article is by no means flattering to Rudolf
Steiner, nor does it seem to me to be one sided. I would like to see some
more of the references from which the conclusions referred to above come.
Anyone have access to any of this stuff.
Peter Farrell
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 17:03:35 +0930
From: Willow Firesong (Willow.Firesong creative-interweb.com)
Subject: Questions to ask the school - was Re: anthroposophy is not
anthroposophy
At 01-05-02 10:52 AM Wednesday, you wrote:
) ) Percedol:
) ) It's a path of inner development.
) ) It's analogue to what the original yoga (not its modern counterfaction)
) ) was in the past.
) ) Times have changed and today's yoga is called Anthroposophy.
)
)Walden: Interesting. I know of two W schools where well meaning parents
)offered to teach Yoga as a volunteer activity (there was much talk of the
)lack of physical education in the schools). In both cases the idea was axed
)well before any discussion took place. We were told that Yoga has
)absolutely nothing to do with Waldorf Education. One of the Yoga teachers
)(a mother in the school) told me after that she was astounded - not only at
)the reluctance of the school to let the children learn Yoga - but of the
)hostility shown her by the head Anthro in the school for even suggesting it!
)The mom was questioned about her family's connection to the school if Yoga
)is a big part of their life. She was totally confused and has had little to
)do with the place since.
This is very interesting. I have studied yoga, t'ai chi, chi kung, and
other related techniques for years, for medical reasons (partly as physical
therapy for ongoing chronic pain problems). I was told by my daughter's
nanny/mother's helper, a Steiner school alumnus, that these appeared to be
similar to Eurhythmy, which my daughter would automatically be studying if
I enrolled her at the local Steiner school - but that she would not be
allowed to study them, and we would find that our own study/practise of
them would be frowned on, during her time at the school. This sounded very
odd to me at the time, because I'd never heard of a school trying to
control a child's extracurricular studies, or choice of athletic activities.
This particular person was initially under the impression that we'd be
well-matched with the Steiner school, but over the period of his employment
with us, he became very concerned about whether we knew what we were
getting into, and brought up the subject increasingly often. In caring for
our precocious daughter, he became increasingly doubtful whether she would
be well served by things like the delayed reading, or the strict control
over the types of artistic media used by the children who attended the
school. Other concerns included the limitations on the scientific
education given to the children (our daughter is mad about space, and has
been determined to be an astronaut since she first encountered the concept,
long before she could pronounce the word), the heavy emphasis on a
Christian paradigm, and the uncritical approach to occult mysticism, and
the writings of Steiner.
I would like to ask the schools, and their representatives here on this
list, a few questions, myself - so, to the parent who was looking for
things to ask at an upcoming school open house, please consider the
following, and if you ask them, please post the answers here, as I'd like
to know what the answers are, too.
Does this Steiner-centered view of things extend to other aspects of the
school? Is there a set way of doing things, which does not allow for equal
respect to be extended to similar or related studies or practises (such as
the contrast between Eurhythmy and yoga, chi kung, t'ai chi, etc.)? Is the
educational system based exclusively in the writings of Steiner, or are
there other sources, which are not based on the writings of Steiner or his
followers, which are given respect and are used in the school?
Are students required to participate in activities related to a religion
which is not their own? Are all children required, for instance, to create
a Madonna or other Christian-themed artwork, such as images of saints, or
Noah's ark? Are all children required to participate in rituals that make
mention of any deity or religious figure(s), and if so, what types of
rituals and terms are used - blessings, celebrations of Saints' Days,
etc.? Are children taught religious beliefs as part of the regular
curriculum, without any effort to distinguish them as being different from
the objective fact-based portions of the curriculum? Are any religious or
spiritual beliefs taught as being more valid or correct than others?
Are there any study groups associated with the school, and if so, are any
of them teaching religious beliefs to the children? If there are such
study groups, are they led by teachers or other authority figures from the
school, with whom the children might try to curry favour through
participation in the study groups, or whose authority puts them in a
position of trust as a source of reliable, objective information about the
world?
I saw a recent special on Australia's ABC TV, in which Steiner and the
schools were covered, and I noticed that although the kids all said that
Steiner and anthroposophical study groups were "optional", and "apart from
the school", all of the children interviewed participated in such study
groups. Is pressure of *any* kind found in any part of the schools
(including references to Steiner and Anthroposophy in advice to parents, or
in passing in the curriculum as practised), with regard to these "optional"
study groups?
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 719
-- Topica Digest --
Re: *thinkers* report
By pstaud hotmail.com
Percedol's delirium
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: Questions to ask the school - was Re: anthroposophy is
notanthroposophy
By Percedol netscape.net
Steiner on "backward races"
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: *thinkers* report
By sarina bainbridge.net
RE: Digest for waldorf-critics topica.com, issue 718
By michelle_hamilton hp.com
Re: Digest for waldorf-critics topica.com, issue 718
By Gary GoodWinter.com
UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By marja.viita luukku.com
RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Percedol's delirium
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: *thinkers* report
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: *thinkers* report
By steve premofine.com
RE: *thinkers* report
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: *thinkers* report
By bdjour1 juno.com
Re: *thinkers* report
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 09:59:14 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: *thinkers* report
)http://www.ibe.unesco.org/International/Publications/Thinkers/thinhome.htm
Great find, Walden! This is an article by Heiner Ullrich, academic director
of the Pedagogical Institute at Mainz University. I think his work on
anthroposophy and Waldorf is top-notch, and this is the first time I've seen
any of it translated. I very much recommend that everybody take the time to
read through the article (it's about 10 pages long).
Although I disagree with him on some details, Ullrich's attitude toward
Waldorf education is very similar to my own: a mixed bag pedagogically, with
many positive elements that were largely borrowed from other educational
reform movements (often in contradiction to Steiner's other doctrines, as
Ullrich notes), but based on an occult worldview that is at best a hindrance
and at worst very damaging. Although his formulation in this article is
fairly reserved and polite, he basically sees the Waldorf movement as a
reform attempt turned dogmatic because of its esoteric underpinnings.
One of the statistics in the article (the 57.5% figure, which Peter F noted
as well) is probably misleading outside of a German context. The German
school system beyond the primary/intermediate level is divided into three
very different types of high school, and only one of those three types (the
Gymnasium) typically leads on toward university education, which remains the
privilege of a relatively small minority. Gymnasiun enrollment is in turn
tightly correlated to class; if you come from a middle class or professional
family, you're much more likely to go there and hence on to university. The
statistic Ullrich cites is for Waldorf pupils who have passed the Abitur (or
perhaps merely taken the Abitur; it isn't clear from the context), the huge
test that pupils graduating from a Gymnasium must take if they want to go to
university. As Ullrich explains in the preceding paragraph, German Waldorf
pupils generally come from professional and middle-class families, thus the
Abitur statistic is not at all surprising when compared to general
statistics for all state schools. This tells us more about the social basis
of Waldorf's clientele than it does about the quality of education offered.
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 10:03:28 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Percedol's delirium
)Percedol:
)No matter what you post the spirit is not limited by the soul: whether is
)sentient, rational or consciousness!
)You might spare us this delirium!!!
You can't accuse someone else of "distorting" a book that you haven't read,
Percedol. Everything you said in your reply is the result of your ignorance
of Steiner's work. I once again recommend that you familiarize yourself with
that work if you would like to discuss it.
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 11:22:33 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Questions to ask the school - was Re: anthroposophy is
notanthroposophy
)This is very interesting. ÝI have studied yoga, t'ai chi, chi kung, and
)other related techniques for years, for medical reasons (partly as physical
)therapy for ongoing chronic pain problems). ÝI was told by my daughter's
)nanny/mother's helper, a Steiner school alumnus, that these appeared to be
)similar to Eurhythmy, which my daughter would automatically be studying if
)I enrolled her at the local Steiner school - but that she would not be
)allowed to study them, and we would find that our own study/practise of
)them would be frowned on, during her time at the school. ÝThis sounded very
)odd to me at the time, because I'd never heard of a school trying to
)control a child's extracurricular studies, or choice of athletic activities.
Percedol:
Yoga as a physical activity is alright and good for the young. The W.
school should not oppose to practice it.
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Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 11:41:23 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Steiner on "backward races"
This will be my third and next-to-last installment of quotes from Steiner's
book The Apocalypse of St. John. The heart of the book is lecture 4, an
exposition of "the cycle of human evolution" as it approaches "the War of
All against All" (78). Here Steiner explains the relationship between
"race-development" and "soul-development" as it plays itself out through the
cycles of racial decline and advance, where small minorities move upward
while the rest degenerate, using the rise of the civilization-founding
Aryans as his chief example. He also expands on the connection between
"advanced" souls and "advanced" bodies, on the one hand, and "backward"
souls and "backward" bodies on the other, one of the linchpins of
anthroposophy's racist worldview. This passage is very revealing, and I will
quote it in full - apologies for excessive length. I posted part of it a few
months ago in my own translation (Steiner's revival of the antisemitic myth
of Ahasuerus, the Wandering Jew or Eternal Jew), but since this is the
official English translation I will include it again here.
"Today we shall pass on in our studies to that which presents itself to the
pupil when he advances to the next stage of initiation. We were confronted
by the seven sub-ages of the present cycle of humanity, and we have said
that this entire cycle with its seven sub-ages is itself a small cycle
contained in a longer period also containing seven epochs. Our epoch, which
embraces seven ages, was preceded by the Atlantean epoch, during which were
prepared the races whose echoes still exist. When the seventh age of our
present epoch is at an end, it will be followed by another epoch again
consisting of seven parts. The present epoch is preparing indirectly for the
following one, so that we may say, our age of civilization will gradually
pass over into one of brotherly love, when a comparatively small part of
humanity will have understood the spiritual life and will have prepared the
spirit and attitude of brotherly love. That civilization will then again
divide off a smaller portion of human beings who will survive the event
which will have such a destructive effect upon our epoch, namely, the War of
All against All. In this universal destructive element there will be
everywhere individuals who lift themselves above the rest of warring
humanity, individuals who have understood the spiritual life and who will
form the foundation for a new and different world in the sixth epoch.
Something similar also took place during the transition from the fourth
epoch to ours. When one who with spiritual vision can review the course of
time has passed back through the ages we have considered, the Graeco-Roman,
the Babylonian-Egyptian, the ancient Persian and the ancient Indian and
beyond the time of the great flood, he comes into the Atlantean epoch. We
need not now consider it in detail but we must at least understand how this
Atlantean civilization passed over into our own. There, too, the greater
part of the Atlantean population was not sufficiently mature to develop
further, it was incapable of coming over into our epoch. A smaller part,
living in a region near to our present Ireland, developed to the highest
flower of the civilization of Atlantis and then journeyed towards the East.
We must clearly understand that this was only the principal stream. There
were always peoples who emigrated from the West to the East, and all the
later peoples of Europe, of northern and central Europe, proceeded from the
stream which then went from the West to the East. Now that most advanced
part of the Atlantean population was under the guidance of a great leader of
humanity and eventually settled down as a very small tribe of chosen
individuals in Central Asia. From this point the colonists migrated to the
various regions of civilization mentioned, to ancient India, to Persia,
Egypt, Greece, etc.
You might now be inclined to say: Is it not an extremely bitter thought that
whole bodies of peoples remain immature and do not develop their capacities;
that only a small group becomes capable of providing the germ for the next
civilization? This thought will no longer disquiet you if you distinguish
between race-development and individual soul-development, for no soul is
condemned to remain in one particular race. The race may fall behind; the
community of people may remain backward, but the souls progress beyond the
several races. If we wish to form a true conception of this we must say that
all the souls now living in bodies in civilized countries were formerly
incarnated in Atlantean bodies. A few developed there in the requisite
manner, and did not remain in Atlantean bodies. As they had developed
further they could become the souls of the bodies which had also progressed
further. Only the souls which as souls had remained backward had to take
bodies which as bodies had remained at a lower stage. If all the souls had
progressed, the backward races would either have decreased very much in
population, or the bodies would be occupied by newly incoming souls at a low
stage of development. For there are always souls which can inhabit backward
bodies. No soul is bound to a backward body if it does not bind itself to
it.
The relation between soul-development and race-development is preserved to
us in a wonderful myth. Let us imagine race following race, civilization
following civilization. The soul going through its earth mission in the
right way is incarnated in a certain race; it strives upward in this race,
and acquires the capacities of this race in order next time to be incarnated
in a higher one. Only the souls which sink in the race and do not work out
of the physical materiality, are held back in the race by their own weight,
as one might say. They appear a second time in the same race and eventually
a third time in bodies in similarly formed races. Such souls hold back the
bodies of the race. This has been wonderfully described in a legend. We
know, indeed, that man progresses further in the fulfilment of the mission
of the earth by following the great Leaders of humanity who point out the
goals to be attained; if he rejects them, if he does not follow them, he
must remain behind with his race, for he cannot then get beyond it. Let us
think of a persnality who has the good forune to meet a great Leader of
humanity, let us suppose such a personality confonting Christ Jesus himself,
for example; he sees how all his deeds are evidence for leading humanity
forward, but he will have nothing to do with this progress, he rejects the
Leader of humanity. Such a personality, such a soul would be condemned to
remain in the race. If we follow this thought to its conclusion such a soul
would have to appear again and again in the same race, and we have the
legend of Ahasuerus who had to appear in the same race again and again
because he rejected Christ Jesus. Great truths concerning the evolution of
humanity are placed before us in such a legend as this."
Rudolf Steiner, The Apocalypse of St. John, pp. 78-81.
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 09:59:15 -0700
From: "Sarina McDonald" (sarina bainbridge.net)
Subject: Re: *thinkers* report
An interesting anecdote:
My friend the PhD in Philosophy, when asked if he knew much about
Steiner, said "Isn't he that Anthro-something guy? Nope, don't know
much about him."
I suppose it's possible that he never deserved his PhD, but he seems
to know an awful lot about a great many other (obscure)
philosophers...
Sarina
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 10:01:14 -0700
From: "HAMILTON,MICHELLE (HP-Vancouver,ex1)" (michelle_hamilton hp.com)
Subject: RE: Digest for waldorf-critics topica.com, issue 718
hi,
i've been magically added back to this list-serv; i did not opt-in. please
remove me from your list.
thanks,
m
-----Original Message-----
From: waldorf-critics topica.com [mailto:waldorf-critics topica.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 4:26 AM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Digest for waldorf-critics topica.com, issue 718
-- Topica Digest --
Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
By feetapparel hotmail.com
The Apocalypse according to Steiner
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: planning to attend an open house
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 08:06:27 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
)))
))) Sharon: If Anthroposophy isn't a religion, then what could it possibly
))) be?
))) A science fiction movie script?
)))
))
)) Percedol:
)) It's a path of inner development.
)) It's analogue to what the original yoga (not its modern counterfaction)
)) was in the past.
)) Times have changed and today's yoga is called Anthroposophy.
Sharon: Not quite Percedol, according to Steiner, Anthroposophy lies between
the Christian path and the Yoga path! Anyway, Yoga is a religion Percedol,
here's Steiner to explain his Rosicrucianism:
Steiner: "Through definite methods the pupil is taught to develop in himself
the wisdom which exists in germ in every human being.
This is the way which was given through the Founder of the Rosicrucian
esoteric stream known to the outer world as Christian Rosenkreutz. It is not
an un-Christian way, rather is it a Christian path adapted to modern
conditions, and lies between the actual Christian path and the Yoga path.
This path had been partially prepared long before the time of Christianity.
It took on a special form through that great initiate, Dionysius the
Areopagite, who in the esoteric school of Paul at Athens inaugurated the
training from which all later esoteric wisdom and training have been
derived.
These are the two paths of esoteric training particularly fitted to the
West. All that is connected with our culture and the life we lead and must
lead, is lifted up, raised into the principle of initiation through the
Christian and through the Rosicrucian training."
(Steiner, R. 154 Theosophy of the Rosicrucian. Rudolf Steiner Press London.
Reprint 1981. Lecture from 1907).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 11:07:53 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
Peter Farrell (feetapparel hotmail.com) wrote:
)G'day Percedol,
)do you agree with Joel that this inner development is not detectable by an
)external observer? At least I think that is what Joel claims.
)See you,
)Peter
Percedol:
How should it be detected?
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 10:52:54 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
) Percedol:
) It's a path of inner development.
) It's analogue to what the original yoga (not its modern counterfaction)
) was in the past.
) Times have changed and today's yoga is called Anthroposophy.
Walden: Interesting. I know of two W schools where well meaning parents
offered to teach Yoga as a volunteer activity (there was much talk of the
lack of physical education in the schools). In both cases the idea was axed
well before any discussion took place. We were told that Yoga has
absolutely nothing to do with Waldorf Education. One of the Yoga teachers
(a mother in the school) told me after that she was astounded - not only at
the reluctance of the school to let the children learn Yoga - but of the
hostility shown her by the head Anthro in the school for even suggesting it!
The mom was questioned about her family's connection to the school if Yoga
is a big part of their life. She was totally confused and has had little to
do with the place since.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 17:58:04 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
Peter Staudenmaier (pstaud hotmail.com) wrote:
)Hello again critics,
)
)Our lone defender of anthroposophy insists that anthroposophy is not a
)belief system and that attempts to understand it are "demonic".
"Maybe he
) thinks that is a doctrine to understand and to be believed. Which is a
) demonic position!"
Percedol:
"Maybe he
) thinks that is a doctrine to understand and to be believed. Which is a
) demonic position!"
It's the 'belief' part that would be demonic because it makes it just an
abstract knowledge.
He doesn't
)realize that this makes all of his own claims about its content quite
)absurd. He doesn't realize that his description of other interpretations of
)anthroposophy as a "bad distorted way of understanding Anthroposophy" are
)completely meaningless according to his own theory. Most interesting of
all,
)he doesn't realize that his numerous assertions about anthroposophy's
)content obviously violate his own precept. He says, for example, that in
)anthroposophy "there is no such thing called sixth race", and that "Steiner
)used the term 'races' for 'epochs' because he was speaking to an audience
of
)Teosophists who were accustomed with those terms. As soon as he left the
)Teosophical Society he changed Ýit with the word 'epochs'." These
assertions
)are untrue, of course, but that doesn't matter to Percedol, who would
prefer
)that we discuss his private mental reality instead of discussing actually
)existing anthroposophy. It's all so familiar; whenever critics point out
)what anthroposophists in the real world have believed, said, written, and
)done, people like Percedol, Joel, etc etc try to "defend" anthroposophy by
)denying its existence. And they call this willful ignorance "higher
)knowledge".... For those of us who would like to discuss the belief system
)formerly known as anthroposophy, would the real anthroposophists please
)stand up?
)
)Peter Staudenmaier
Percedol:
There is no belief system called A. because A. is not a belief system.
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 18:02:32 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Re: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net) wrote:
)
))))
)))) Sharon: If Anthroposophy isn't a religion, then what could it possibly
)))) be?
)))) A science fiction movie script?
))))
)))
))) Percedol:
))) It's a path of inner development.
))) It's analogue to what the original yoga (not its modern counterfaction)
))) was in the past.
))) Times have changed and today's yoga is called Anthroposophy.
)
)Sharon: Not quite Percedol, according to Steiner, Anthroposophy lies
between
)the Christian path and the Yoga path! Anyway, Yoga is a religion Percedol,
)here's Steiner to explain his Rosicrucianism:
)
)Steiner: "Through definite methods the pupil is taught to develop in
himself
)the wisdom which exists in germ in every human being.
)This is the way which was given through the Founder of the Rosicrucian
)esoteric stream known to the outer world as Christian Rosenkreutz. It is
not
)an un-Christian way, rather is it a Christian path adapted to modern
)conditions, and lies between the actual Christian path and the Yoga path.
)This path had been partially prepared long before the time of Christianity.
)It took on a special form through that great initiate, Dionysius the
)Areopagite, who in the esoteric school of Paul at Athens inaugurated the
)training from which all later esoteric wisdom and training have been
)derived.
)These are the two paths of esoteric training particularly fitted to the
)West. All that is connected with our culture and the life we lead and must
)lead, is lifted up, raised into the principle of initiation through the
)Christian and through the Rosicrucian training."
)
)(Steiner, R. 154 Theosophy of the Rosicrucian. Rudolf Steiner Press London.
)Reprint 1981. Lecture from 1907).
Percedol:
What are you doing? R. is not a religion!
And Yoga is not a religion (repetita iuvant!).
Or please show us how yoga would be a religion!
BTW have you read your quote:
"These are the two paths of esoteric training"
and not religions!
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:40:17 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
G'day Percedol,
A simple way for me to answer this is to ask if you can tell if someone else
has done this inner development or not, perhaps in conversation, possibly
over an extended period
If you can then it is detectable by an external observer. Incidentally,
certainty about this is not essential, a reasonable probability of being
able to detect this is all that I am intersted in.
See you, Peter
)From: Percedol netscape.net
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: RE: RE: anthroposophy is not anthroposophy
)Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 11:07:53 -0400
)
)Peter Farrell (feetapparel hotmail.com) wrote:
)
) )G'day Percedol,
) )do you agree with Joel that this inner development is not detectable by
)an
) )external observer? At least I think that is what Joel claims.
) )See you,
) )Peter
)
)Percedol:
)How should it be detected?
)
)
)__________________________________________________________________
)Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
)Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop Netscape!
)http://shopnow.netscape.com/
)
)Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at
)http://webmail.netscape.com/
)
)
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:02:04 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: The Apocalypse according to Steiner
Hello critics,
a couple months ago Charlie alerted me to the fact that Steiner's book The
Apocalypse of St. John has been translated into English (Anthroposophical
Publishing Company, London, 1958). I've read portions of the original and
have occasionally posted bits of it here; now that I've looked through the
English edition I've found a lot more interesting material on race. The book
is a series of lectures Steiner gave in Nuremberg in June 1908, explaining
his theosophical interpretation of the Apocalypse of John (the last chapter
in the christian bible, also known as Revelations). When I was a Catholic
kid, this was one of my favorite parts of the bible, a veritable acid trip
of wild imagery and fantastic prophecies. Steiner, as usual, takes this
material and runs with it.
A lot of the major themes in the book will sound familiar. Steiner says that
the ancient Hebrews had no concept of individuality, that they "felt secure
in the group-soul" (129), and that this group nature persists among
latter-day Jews: "This blood-relationship assumes the greatest proportions
among the followers of the Old Testament religion." (25) This Jewish
"Folk-Ego" must be overcome through "Christian evolution" (25). "We have
represented it as a high achievement of man that just through Christianity
he has been able to ascend to this concept of the free "I"." (139) In other
words Steiner repeats several of the antisemitic arguments he developed
elsewhere.
On the other hand, Steiner here refers several times to "the
Assyrian-Babylonian-Chaldaic-Egyptian-Hebrew civilization" as part of the
"fifth epoch" (61). This is the first textual reference I have found to
indicate that Steiner may have considered Jews part of the "Aryan root
race", the group which predominates in the "fifth epoch". A number of
anthroposophists on this list have made this claim over the years, but every
time I asked for a citation they had none to offer. I'm now rethinking my
argument that Steiner consistently shared the standard theosophical view on
this question, which held that Jews were the descendants of those Atlanteans
who did not evolve into Aryans.
Another major theme in this book is the "War of All against All" that will
occur between the fifth epoch and the sixth epoch. Comprehending this
apocalyptic event, Steiner says, is crucial in order to "understand the
direction evolution will actually take." (133) The result of this war will
be a basic divergence within humankind between "the good and the evil races"
(92); this divergence will be "expressed in the features" of people in the
sixth epoch (139). This new racial dispensation will correspond to the
distinction between christians and non-christians, with "the good race" of
believeing christians evolving onward while "the evil race" of non-believers
whithers: after the trials of the sixth epoch, "the earth with all its
beings will pass into a kind of spiritual condition, with the exception of
those who refuse to receive the Christ-principle" (186).
Steiner further associates "the good race" with anthroposophists and "the
evil race" with those who reject anthroposophy. "The souls now living in
bodies which have the heart to hear and feel Anthroposophy, are now
preparing themselves to live in bodies in the future in which power will be
given them to serve their fellow creatures" (206). It is only "those who
have reached the necessary degree of maturity, who have taken the
Christ-principle into themselves and allowed it to become active" who will
partake in the further evolution of humanity. (152) As always in Steiner's
evolutionary scheme, an elite few will advance and face off with the forces
of evil, who in turn will be physically distinct from the forces of good:
"The most capable must be chosen and prepared to live beyond the period of
the great War of All against All when men will confront those who bear in
their countenances the sign of evil" (142).
"All those will participate in this marriage [of intellect and spirit] who
take into themselves the impulse of Christ Jesus and they will form the
great brotherhood which will survive the great War, which will experience
enmity and persecution, but will provide the foundation for the good race.
After this great War has brought out the animal nature in those who have
remained in the old forms, the good race will arise, and this race will
carry over into the future that which is to be the spiritually elevated
culture in that future epoch." (135)
I'll post more tomorrow about "race-development".
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:53:12 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: planning to attend an open house
) I also would urge Allen to ask himself : Do I believe in the tenets of
) Anthroposophy enough to want my child "educated" according to them? Do I
) understand that Waldorf schools are the parochial schools of
Anthroposophy,
) and am I comfortable with that?
)
) You cannot separate Anthroposophy and Waldorf -- they are inextricably
) related and intertwined.
)
) Knowing that ahead of time can save lots of heartache later.
)
) Lisa
Walden:
Thank-you, Lisa. Amen
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 718
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 13:24:23 -0400
From: Gary Bonhiver (gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Re: Digest for waldorf-critics topica.com, issue 718
on 5/3/02 1:01 PM, Michelle Hamilton at michelle_hamilton hp.com wrote:
) hi,
)
) i've been magically added back to this list-serv; i did not opt-in. please
) remove me from your list.
)
) thanks,
) m
How odd. Topica recently made some changes to their list software...I
wonder if they messed up some how. Anyway, I've removed Michelle.
...Gary Bonhiver
www.waldorfcritics.org Webmaster
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 20:27:20 +0000
From: Marja (marja.viita luukku.com)
Subject: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
Has someone following booklet:
"UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue"
Anthros has made exhibition, which travel from country to country. They
have named it : "The UNESCO Exhibition"
I've visited the exhibition, but that booklet I don't have.
In the exhibition there is about 40 big posters. None of them is telling
about UNESCO's activities. They are full of anthro-propaganda.
Exhibitions are arranged locally by anthros and local UNESCO persons
have nothing to do with this.
I was told that originally the exhibition was erected in New York in
some UNESCO happening some 10 years ago. After that exhibition has been
shown monthly in different places.
Does anyone know more details of this exhibition? And why UNESCO lets
anthros to use UNESCO's name?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 23:53:08 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
Marja wrote:
)
) Has someone following booklet:
) "UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue"
)
) Anthros has made exhibition, which travel from country to country. They
) have named it : "The UNESCO Exhibition"
)
) I've visited the exhibition, but that booklet I don't have.
) In the exhibition there is about 40 big posters. None of them is telling
)
) about UNESCO's activities. They are full of anthro-propaganda.
) Exhibitions are arranged locally by anthros and local UNESCO persons
) have nothing to do with this.
)
) I was told that originally the exhibition was erected in New York in
) some UNESCO happening some 10 years ago. After that exhibition has been
) shown monthly in different places.
)
) Does anyone know more details of this exhibition? And why UNESCO lets
) anthros to use UNESCO's name?
)
Percedol:
'In 1994, the UNESCO (United Nations Educational, Scientific, and
Cultural Organization) honored Waldorf education with a special
exhibition for its contributions to the world. The establishment of the
Independent Waldorf School may one day be regarded as one of the most
significant initiatives of the twentieth century.'
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 23:59:49 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
) Does anyone know more details of this exhibition? And why UNESCO lets
) anthros to use UNESCO's name?
)
Percedol:
[http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/postings/SN-010626-on-untruths.htm]
[Sune]: Your expressed opinion is 'interesting', in view of the
expressed opinion by former German Chancellor Willy Brandt that "The
advent of the Wald. Schools" in his opinion are "the greatest
contribution to world peace and understanding of the {20th] century."
(http://www.waldorf-sandiego.org/wdhistory.htm).
Dan:
People who come into contact with Waldorf schools rarely have
any contact with the racial doctrines. I guess I was just lucky to
open a Steiner book to such a page.
'Lucky'? The minimal impact comments such at the one you ofthe refer to
(from 1988) have had on WS:s, indicates the Wald movement has taken and
understood them for what they are; marginal and with no essential
implications for Waldorf education.
Me [Sune]:
One may also get a perspective of it from what Tarjei pointed out
on 21 May on this list: 'During the apartheid regime in South
Africa, the Waldorf schools were the only ones where black and
white students attended the same classes,
Dan:
Sharon, who was in South Africa at the time, challenged Tarjei to
back up the assertion that this was anything more than tokenism.
No back-up data has been forthcoming.
Tarjei has answered on this.
Me [Sune]:
and the school for Waldorf teacher training in Cape Town, The
Novalis Institute (http://www.ideas-net.de/novalis/), was praised
by UNESCO as an organization of tremendous consequence in the
conquest of apartheid. (Tolerance: The Treshold of Peace. A
Teaching/Learning Guide for Education for Peace, Human Right
and Democracy, UNESCO 1994.)'
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 00:10:56 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Percedol's delirium
Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
)
) )Percedol:
) )No matter what you post the spirit is not limited by the soul: whether
) )is
) )sentient, rational or consciousness!
) )You might spare us this delirium!!!
)
) You can't accuse someone else of "distorting" a book that you haven't
) read,
) Percedol. Everything you said in your reply is the result of your
) ignorance
) of Steiner's work. I once again recommend that you familiarize yourself
) with
) that work if you would like to discuss it.
)
) Peter S.
Percedol:
I read the book. It was translated in Italian and published by the
Anthroposophical Editor since 1963. It's a very interesting cycle,
especially considering I always had a special interest for the John's
Apocalypse.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 00:15:27 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: *thinkers* report
Sarina McDonald wrote:
) An interesting anecdote:
)
) My friend the PhD in Philosophy, when asked if he knew much about
) Steiner, said "Isn't he that Anthro-something guy? Nope, don't know
) much about him."
)
) I suppose it's possible that he never deserved his PhD, but he seems
) to know an awful lot about a great many other (obscure)
) philosophers...
)
) Sarina
Percedol:
In Italy official culture did a good job to put to silence the figure
and work of Steiner. They were quite successful.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 00:45:14 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
Marja wrote:
)
) Has someone following booklet:
) "UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue"
)
) Anthros has made exhibition, which travel from country to country. They
) have named it : "The UNESCO Exhibition"
)
) I've visited the exhibition, but that booklet I don't have.
) In the exhibition there is about 40 big posters. None of them is telling
)
) about UNESCO's activities. They are full of anthro-propaganda.
) Exhibitions are arranged locally by anthros and local UNESCO persons
) have nothing to do with this.
)
) I was told that originally the exhibition was erected in New York in
) some UNESCO happening some 10 years ago. After that exhibition has been
) shown monthly in different places.
)
) Does anyone know more details of this exhibition? And why UNESCO lets
) anthros to use UNESCO's name?
)
Percedol:
[http://www.uncletaz.com/waage/waagenglish1.html]
INDIVIDUAL - NOT RACE
According to Staudenmaier, Steiner and his followers hold the opinion
that the Aborigines would best serve humanity by dying out. In the real
world of the anthroposophical movement, these people have influenced
several Waldorf schools in Australia with their culture and their
myths.10 Inone such school, the majority of teachers and students are
Aborigines.11 This is not unique. Contrary to what should be expected
from a racist Nazi-ideology, Anthroposophy has had its break-through in
schools and other social institutions in most of the world. There are
Waldorf schools in Israel, Egypt, in the second largest Indian
reservation in America (the Sioux), in severalSouth American countries
(among other things, anthroposophists are making a considerable effort
on behalf of street children in Rio de Janeiro), India, Korea, Japan,
South Africa and other African countries, Russia, Mongolia, and
Kazakhstan - just to mention some of the "exotic" places.12 The
curriculum is adapted to local cultural traditions, and at the same time
endeavors to make the students suited to live in a modern, globalized
world. During the apartheid regime in South Africa,
the Waldorf schools were the only ones where black and white students
attended the same classes, and the school for Waldorf teacher training
in Cape Town, The Novalis Institute, was praised by UNESCO as an
organization of tremendous consequence in the conquest of apartheid.13
The readers of Humanist don't get to know about any of this.
Rudolf Steiner's own fundamental attitude to racism, races, and
cultural diversity comes to expression when he repeatedly emphasizes how
harmful it is for those who seek "knowledge of higher worlds" to harbor
racial prejudices or to judge human beings on the basis of gender, race,
etc. The person who should fall for this temptation will never achieve
insight.14 Furthermore, he writes that racial differences are in the
process of being wiped out; in a not too far distant future
they will be completely irrelevant.15 The relationship between the
single individual and his or her "race" or culture is, for Steiner,
regulated by the laws of reincarnation. The individual is born into
different races and cultures.16
We may think it weird or nonsensical to talk about some kind of
"spiritual insight" and "higher worlds"; we may hold the opinion that
race has never had any significance by itself - it has for the
most part gained significance through people's prejudices; and we may
label belief in reincarnation as confused and absurd. But someone who
claims that "spiritual insight" is possible and worthy of pursuit, and
that reincarnation is a part of human existence, cannot be called a
racist when he insists that racism is a hindrance to insight and that
race is so secondary that it is not only disappearing; it is best
compared to changing clothes for the individual. It is not complexion or
"blood" that gives value to the individual for Steiner, but his or her
humanity - and this is found in everyone, regardless of "race." This is
a fundamental anti-racist viewpoint and no "racist
philosophy" like what is served to the readers of Humanist.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 17:58:14 -0700
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: RE: *thinkers* report
On 4 May 2002, Percedol netscape.net wrote:
) In Italy official culture did a good job to put to silence the figure
) and work of Steiner. They were quite successful.
What is official culture?
Steve Premo
Santa Cruz, California
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 02:56:34 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: *thinkers* report
Steve Premo wrote:
) On 4 May 2002, Percedol netscape.net wrote:
)
) ) In Italy official culture did a good job to put to silence the figure
) ) and work of Steiner. They were quite successful.
)
) What is official culture?
) Steve Premo
) Santa Cruz, California
) http://www.premofine.com
)
Percedol:
To give an example let's take Guenon. Until a few years ago in Italy he
was not mentioned anywhere and his books were only published by small
small independent editors. No mainstream intellectuals wrote about him.
Eventually, a few years ago, an important publisher, "Adelphi" started
publishing his books. From then he was "cleared" or accepted by
mainstream intellectuals who began to show an interest for his work.
Steiner, despite his huge work deserved only a few lines in the major
encyclopedia. Only a few years ago one of the major editors published
his "Philosophy of Freedom" (the copyrights of Steiner's books expired
years ago and now anybody can print his works in Italy). There are a few
articles on major newspapers, etc. but still...
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 08:01:07 +0200
From: bell d jour (bdjour1 juno.com)
Subject: Re: *thinkers* report
Hi All,
Are the studies mentioned in the passage below referenced in any way? In
Germany the Waldorf Schools are notorious for conducting studies on
themselves and "discovering" that they are better than other schools.
But when asked they can never present the documentation to support their
beliefs. The truth of the matter is quite different, I believe. In
Bavaria and Baden-Wuerttemberg, the pass rate in the Abitur for Waldorf
School students is less than one third that of the state schools. One
thing that German Waldorf Schools do is to prevent as many students as
possible from taking the Abitur or to shuffle Abitur-taking students all
into one area school, so that only one Waldorf school ends up with bad
stats. Sort of like taking turns with the bad apples.
The passage below reads like one of the recruiting pamphlets for the
Waldorf Schools. Basically, in Germany, Waldorf School students fall
into four categories: (1) children of true believers; (2) juvenile
delinquents who have been expelled from every other type of school; (3) a
very small number of good students whose parents have been duped by the
cult's propaganda; and (4) the largest category, the stupid and lazy
offspring of wealthy parents. There is probably no school less equipped
to deal with problem children or the unmotivated and shiftless than a
Waldorf School. It is slacker heaven.
Never believe anything a Waldorf School representative or an
Anthroposophist tells you. They are without a doubt the most dishonest
group of people I have ever encountered. I find it difficult to believe
that a Waldorf School could ever present any type of accurate statistics
because they have an almost religious zeal for NOT keeping records. You
should see how they go meshugannah if you try to take notes durring one
of their 4-hour Gesamtkonferenz meetings. And yes, they are racists and
anti-Semites. You won't find a non-Aryan student in a German Waldorf
school.
Bob DeJournette
On Fri, 03 May 2002 07:39:27 +0000 Peter Farrell
(feetapparel hotmail.com) writes:
) Thanks to Walden for a very interesting article. I have extracted one
) part
) of a paragraph that I think is interesting. Here goes.
)
) The Rudolf Steiner schools are not only successful in themselves.
) The
) educational results of the pupils
) who have attended them in Germany are also impressive. This is
) already
) reflected in the fact that in 1990
) almost twice as many pupils of Rudolf Steiner schools (57.5%)
) attained the
) qualification necessary for
) university studies than pupils of the same year attending state
) schools;20
) and this despite the fact that their work
) had not been sanctioned for twelve years by marks. An earlier
) quantitative
) survey of former German pupils of
) the Rudolf Steiner schools (born in the year 1940/41) revealed
) significant
) differences between this group and a
) control group in the following areas: higher geographical and social
)
) mobility; more pronounced leisure
) activities in the areas of reading, interest in art, practice of a
) musical
) instrument and ability in craftwork; and an
) interest in further training.21 A recent qualitative study of the
) educational biographies of former pupils of a
) Rudolf Steiner school with a double academic and professional
) curriculum
) (Hibernia School at Herm,
) Germany) also showed that these pupils were better equipped to face
) the
) challenge of life and, in particular,
) more capable of dealing with technical tasks. They showed greater
) self-confidence and a wider range of
) interests, were open to new ideas and were particularly willing to
) accept
) social responsibility.22 The Rudolf
) Steiner school investigated in that case revealed all the central
) characteristics of a good school: (a) childoriented
) and methodically competent teachers; (b) a harmonious school style
) guaranteed by agreement on the
) basic pedagogical principles; (c) permanent reflection on the
) teachers own
) on at educational conferences
) and advanced training courses; and (d) an awareness of continuity
) through
) the creation of a school tradition.
)
)
) End quote.
)
) I should tell you that the article is by no means flattering to
) Rudolf
) Steiner, nor does it seem to me to be one sided. I would like to see
) some
) more of the references from which the conclusions referred to above
) come.
) Anyone have access to any of this stuff.
)
) Peter Farrell
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
) http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
)
)
)
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 00:48:37 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: *thinkers* report
Walden:
I will apologize now if this is considered a waste of space. I found the
following article a while back and it has always bothered me. Many people -
parents, teachers and especially children are having a difficult time in
life after their Waldorf experience. I have seen too much pain in too many
people. This article is from a site which defends SWA and mocks those who
feel the real pain associated with this occult movement. To be proud of
one's religious conviction is one thing - to mock those in pain is quite
another. For what it is worth:
Cult Victim Needing Help
On January 26 1999, I decided to subscribe to Dan Dugan's Waldorf Critics
List which is featured on the PLANS website. Judging from the content of
this website, which is dedicated not only to criticism of Waldorf education,
classroom activities, curriculum and so on, but to the brown-baiting
nazification of Rudolf Steiner and the portrayal of the anthroposophical
movement as a brainwashing cult, I decided to introduce myself as a cult
victim asking for help. One of the critics accused me later of having
crashed the party under false pretenses by pretending to be something I
wasn't, but I disagree. Judge for yourselves:
Dear fellow subscribers,
I wonder if someone may be able to tell me where to get the help I need to
get out of the Steiner-cult. To begin with, I would like to talk to an exit
counsellor and then seek therapy. I don't know if there are such exit
counsellors here in Norway, so I was hoping with this post to be directed to
one in my area.
I have been a victim of the Steiner-cult for a very long time - since
childhood. When I now want to get out at age fifty, a deprogrammer may be
called for, but I don't know how to locate one, and I'm very afraid of the
whole thing.
In the late 1950's, my mother was was exposed to Anthroposophy by the
religious aspect of it by starting off with "Theosophy." She also applied it
in her artistic work, first as an actress, later as a music teacher. Through
her influence I I was exposed to all kinds of tales about Lucifer and
Ahriman and life after death as a child, and at age 15 or 16 I began to read
the books off my mother's shelves. The first one was "Cosmic Memory" about
our Atlantean and Lemurian ancestors. It bridged the gap for me between
Darwin and the Bible - a riddle I had subconsciously pondered - and got me
hooked. And before I knew it, I was reading Steiner around the clock about
every topic from the spiritual properties of sugar to elves and gnomes and
Egyptian mysteries, and when I was 18, I had read "Occult Science,"
"Christianity as Mystical Fact," and "Knowledge of the Higher Worlds."
What I did not realize of course, was that my mother and Rudolf Steiner had
molded my view of reality in a coercive way. During the years to come, my
anthroposophical reading habits were rare, occasional, and sporadic while I
tested out other religions, world views, and philosophies. In the late
1980's when I was living in Texas, I purchased a whole library of Steiner
and entered another period of extensive reading. I even joined the
Anthroposophical Society for a while and participated regularly in a local
study group. I had "returned" to Steiner after many years as the only
spiritual teacher I found trustworthy, feeling that all the others had let
me down at some point. Now I recognize how dangerous and deceptive it is to
think like that!
Rudolf Steiner's spiritual ideas about evolution and cosmos are constantly
presenting themselves to me when I meditate or ruminate about life. Does
anyone familiar with therapeutic medicine know about a safe cure? I am
worried about being cured also - which I understand is a common reaction
among long time cult victims who are beginning to wake up. I am confused,
because I don't know if deprogrammers and therapists would want me to
embrace atheism, which has somehow never worked for me before, or if it's ok
to become a Baptist or a Roman Catholic or something. The problem I have
with these religions is that I cannot accept the literal Immaculate
Conception and other irrationalities that I found (to me) acceptable
explanations for in the Cult of Anthroposophy. Maybe the best thing for me
is to denounce Christianity altogether?
If I succeed in mustering enough courage to take the big step away from this
cult, I also need som advice from people with the same experience. How do I
handle anthroposophists who might want to persuade and coerce me back into
the nightmare? What if they start a harassment campaign against me - I know
for a fact that most ex-cultists who have exited (or fled) are subjected to
all kinds of abuses. Should I explain the situation to the police before
taking the drastic step?
And then there are the children. It is always the children who suffer most
from civil wars and cults and all other calamities that we adults bring into
this world. I have a nine year old son in a different city. He attends
Waldorf school there and lives with his mother, who is a totally brainwashed
anthroposophist with the entire Steiner-library in the original German!
She's nuts I tell you, and beyond hope. She'll probably die in the cult just
like my mother did. Anyway, she has full custody of our son, so I guess I'll
never get him out of Waldorf. But perhaps some of my fellow subscribers may
advise me about the deprogramming of children. Because If I don't get out of
this, but die in the cult like my mother, and my son does the same as his
parents, I despair for the hope of the world.
Tarjei Straume
http://www.uncletaz.com/
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 720
-- Topica Digest --
Re: *thinkers* report
By Tjgarr859 aol.com
RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By marja.viita luukku.com
Re: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By mysplum earthlink.net
Australian television programme on Steiner
By kateabooth yahoo.com.au
Re: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Percedol's delirium
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By mysplum earthlink.net
Waage on racism
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: Australian television programme on Steiner
By snell gv.net
Re: *thinkers* report
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Montessori Critics Website
By sarinamcdonald msn.com
Re: Montessori Critics Website
By snell gv.net
RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: *thinkers* report
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Montessori Critics Website
By Percedol netscape.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 07:06:22 EDT
From: Tjgarr859 aol.com
Subject: Re: *thinkers* report
I can see one very naughty Anthro. who won't get to Vulcan in the final epoch
:)
I'm beginning to see a pattern of deep paranoia and deceit. Maybe (some) of
these so called freed thinkers have actually figured out that where there is
smoke there is fire.
Can anyone direct me to the Montessori Critics Web Site?
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 14:26:45 +0000
From: Marja (marja.viita luukku.com)
Subject: RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
Percedol netscape.net wrote:
) [Sune]: Your expressed opinion is 'interesting', in view of the
) expressed opinion by former German Chancellor Willy Brandt that "The
) advent of the Wald. Schools" in his opinion are "the greatest
) contribution to world peace and understanding of the {20th] century."
) (http://www.waldorf-sandiego.org/wdhistory.htm).
My "interesting" opinion is based on:
1. My three visits to the UNESCO Exhibition.
2. Studies of Anthroposophy.
3. Our child has been there (in w-school) several years.
Also King and Queen of Sweden (Carl Gustaf and Silvia) has donated big
amount of personal money to anthros. Italian prime minister Berlusconi
has very strong symphaties for anthtoposophy. Now you told interesting
thing about Willy Brandt. Who will continue the list?
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 10:53:05 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
on 5/3/02 4:59 PM, Percedol netscape.net at Percedol netscape.net wrote:
Tarjei:
) on 21 May on this list: 'During the apartheid regime in South
) Africa, the Waldorf schools were the only ones where black and
) white students attended the same classes,
Sharon: An erroneous statement. We've already discussed it.
)
) Dan:
) Sharon, who was in South Africa at the time, challenged Tarjei to
) back up the assertion that this was anything more than tokenism.
) No back-up data has been forthcoming.
)
) Tarjei has answered on this.
)
) Me [Sune]:
) and the school for Waldorf teacher training in Cape Town, The
) Novalis Institute (http://www.ideas-net.de/novalis/), was praised
) by UNESCO as an organization of tremendous consequence in the
) conquest of apartheid. (Tolerance: The Treshold of Peace. A
) Teaching/Learning Guide for Education for Peace, Human Right
) and Democracy, UNESCO 1994.)'
Sharon: I gagged then when I read the above and I gag now, the Novalis
Institute actually published racist dogma during Apartheid.
Here's a quote about schools in SA from Geoffrey Ahern's Sun at Midnight,
published in 1984:
Ahern: "The three main centres in South Africa are in Johannesburg, Capetown
and Durban. There are only a handful of Dutch members here, the largest
group is English (traditionally, there has been a strong German influence).
There are no black or, it seems, coloured people; I was told this was not
because of conscious exclusion but because of the enormous culture gap. Only
the schools in Capetown have permission to take in coloured or black
children; in one of the schools they are about an eighth each of the total
pupil number; in the other, the portion is much lower. The Camphill movement
sees itself as helping break down racial barriers in South Africa, since it
is possible for whites to work directly on the land. There is nothing in the
General Anthroposophical Society's constitution that directly excludes
racial discrimination, though most members outside South Africa would feel
that its spirit is opposed to Apartheid" (40. Ahern, G. Sun at Midnight, The
Aquarian Press. Wellington, Northamptonshire. 1984).
Sharon: A few comments...My father's organization had members from all
groups so I think the statement about exclusion because of culture gap is
not acceptable. My family was able to mix with people from all of SA's
society, despite the laws. Many of my parent's friends were African and
Indian. We would even eat at each others houses. (Grant it, my parents were
"liberal whites" and sometimes the neighbors called the police when they had
certain guests because intermingling was against the law. Also, my father
had permission to enter areas designated "blacks only" because of his work,
I was one of the few white South Africans who spent time in African
"townships" and rural areas. I visited many African, Indian, Coloured and
White schools and churches with my father). There were many orgs. from
religious to political that had members from all population groups when I
was growing up. Durban has a large Indian and African population, and is a
place that I spent much of my childhood. I was born in Pietermaritzburg. As
I mentioned before, during Apartheid some schools (mainly whites only church
schools) had permission to educate a few "non-white" students, (think Bishop
Tutu's kids). These were private schools. Public schools were segregated,
black children received an inferior education. Many African children did not
go to school in protest. Kids belonging to black leaders and important
Africans had permission to attend "whites only" schools. Some schools took
in children on scholarship as a gesture of good will, others tried to ignore
Apartheid and educate all South Africans despite the laws, then in the
eighties there was a greater attempt, a larger movement, a conscious
thumbing the nose at the government to educate black students for the future
society. Schools all over the country skirted around the law in all sorts of
ways, some "whites-only" schools had segregated classrooms in order to
operate. *But* remember that in South Africa whites are the minority. To be
a true reflection of the population, there should have been mostly black
students with a few whites attending, which was not the case. In the Cape,
there is a large "coloured" population. "Coloured" is one of the categories
Apartheid used to classify South Africans. "Coloureds" were people of mixed
ethnicity, and they had a higher status than blacks. In South Africa, people
were arranged sort of like Steiner organized people. The Africans were
considered spiritually not advanced and were often referred to by the
derogatory term "Kaffirs" meaning "People without souls". (This reminds me
of Steiner's concept of race). Next came Indians. Next Coloured. Then
Chinese. Japanese were considered honorary whites and were allowed to spend
the night in a "whites only" area, whereas permission was needed for
Chinese. Last but not least were Whites, the most advanced of all and God's
chosen. Of course I think this is utter nonsense and I am disgusted by this
idea. My family left SA because of Apartheid's racist politics. One of the
last meals we had in SA was with my mom's childhood friend whose old mother
went and got a shotgun and tried to shoot us as we fled from the dinner
table. She was mad because my parents were anti Apartheid and had asked my
parents if they would let one of us girls marry a black man. They said "Yes"
which is what caused the attack. My sister actually did end up marrying an
African American.
In South Africa, it was and probably still is, very rare for whites to do
any sort of menial labor, which is what Ahern was referring to when he wrote
about breaking down barriers by whites working the land.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 00:54:27 +1000 (EST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Kate=20Booth?= (kateabooth yahoo.com.au)
Subject: Australian television programme on Steiner
Here is the website for the transcript on Steiner from
the programme Compass shown on Australian ABC the
other week.
Thought it may be of interest.
http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s542330.htm
http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 11:05:44 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
) Percedol netscape.net wrote:
)
)) [Sune]: Your expressed opinion is 'interesting', in view of the
)) expressed opinion by former German Chancellor Willy Brandt that "The
)) advent of the Wald. Schools" in his opinion are "the greatest
)) contribution to world peace and understanding of the {20th] century."
)) (http://www.waldorf-sandiego.org/wdhistory.htm).
Sharon: Howling with laughter!
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 10:01:56 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Percedol's delirium
)Percedol:
)I read the book. It was translated in Italian and published by the
)Anthroposophical Editor since 1963. It's a very interesting cycle,
)especially considering I always had a special interest for the John's
)Apocalypse.
In that case, you've got a lot of explaining to do. Please substantiate the
following statements:
"You do not give quotes about this."
"Also it does not makes sense because the inner discipline is equally
possible to any human being because the spirit is not tied to the ethnic
element."
"This is another distortion"
"People who (mis)understood A. like you did? No surprise thay became nazi!
With the ability of distorting things to such level!"
If you have read the book, then you know that my description of it is
accurate, and you need to explain why you pretended otherwise two days ago.
You also need to explain how anyone could possibly "distort" or
"misunderstand" anthroposophy if anthroposophy is not a belief system. Last,
please tell us if you share Steiner's views on "backward races", the "race
of evil", and the "lower forms" of humanity as expressed in this book.
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldís largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 11:16:46 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
on 5/4/02 10:53 AM, mysplum at mysplum earthlink.net wrote:
Some schools took
) in children on scholarship as a gesture of good will,
Sharon: PS. By this I meant, "Christian duty"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 10:57:15 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Waage on racism
Percedol quotes a passage from Norwegian journalist Peter Normann Waage's
response to my article on anthroposophy and ecofascism. Peter Zegers and I
have, of course, replied to this at length; see
www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/anthroposophy_criticism.htm
But perhaps a few more comments are in order.
)INDIVIDUAL - NOT RACE
)According to Staudenmaier, Steiner and his followers hold the opinion
)that the Aborigines would best serve humanity by dying out.
Waage says "according to Staudenmaier" because he has never bothered to
consult Steiner's own writings on the matter. Steiner's apologias for the
European genocide of aboriginal peoples can be found throughout his major
works, including Cosmic Memory, Mission of the Folk Souls, Die Weltraetsel
und die Anthroposophie, Menschheitsentwickelung und Christus-Erkenntnis, and
elsewhere.
)In the real
)world of the anthroposophical movement, these people have influenced
)several Waldorf schools in Australia with their culture and their
)myths.10 Inone such school, the majority of teachers and students are
)Aborigines.11 This is not unique.
Nor is it relevant. My article said nothing at all about Waldorf schools in
Australia (or South Africa, or Norway, etc etc). Waage would like to reduce
"the real world of the anthroposophical movement" to those aspects of that
movement that he finds personally appealing, and pretends that Steiner's
racist teachings are not part of that movement.
)Contrary to what should be expected
)from a racist Nazi-ideology, Anthroposophy has had its break-through in
)schools and other social institutions in most of the world.
"Nazi-ideology" is a dimwitted red herring, since my entire article is built
around the fact that anthroposophy and Nazism were two distinct phenomena.
As for "racist ideology", Waage once again displays his boundless naivete
here. He thinks that racism would somehow have a difficult time finding a
foothold in "most of the world". If only that were true.
)There are
)Waldorf schools in Israel, Egypt, in the second largest Indian
)reservation in America (the Sioux), in severalSouth American countries
)(among other things, anthroposophists are making a considerable effort
) on behalf of street children in Rio de Janeiro), India, Korea, Japan,
)South Africa and other African countries, Russia, Mongolia, and
)Kazakhstan - just to mention some of the "exotic" places.
More irrelevance.
)During the apartheid regime in South Africa,
)the Waldorf schools were the only ones where black and white students
)attended the same classes, and the school for Waldorf teacher training
)in Cape Town, The Novalis Institute, was praised by UNESCO as an
)organization of tremendous consequence in the conquest of apartheid.
Waage gives no concrete citation for this claim, he merely lists the title
of a book published under UNESCO auspices; no page number or anything else.
This is, by the way, typical for his approach. Moreover, his substantive
claim here is demonstrably false, as Percedol already knows. Why do
anthroposophists feel compelled to make up stories about their own
activities?
) Rudolf Steiner's own fundamental attitude to racism, races, and
)cultural diversity comes to expression when he repeatedly emphasizes how
)harmful it is for those who seek "knowledge of higher worlds" to harbor
)racial prejudices or to judge human beings on the basis of gender, race,
)etc.
Another instance of Waage's failure to read Steiner. What "comes to
expression" in such rare passages is hardly Steiner's "fundamental attitude
to racism" but his pragmatic recognition that his message sometimes needed a
bit of sugarcoating. The fundamental teachings are obviously to be found in
the much more numerous explicitly racist passages.
)Furthermore, he writes that racial differences are in the
)process of being wiped out; in a not too far distant future
)they will be completely irrelevant.
Steiner said over and over that this would happen thousands of years from
now; that is very much a "far distant future". Moreover, he said very
clearly that this would take place after a massive race war in which "lower
racial forms" would be eliminated. Why do anthroposophists feel compelled to
make up stories about their own doctrines?
)The relationship between the
)single individual and his or her "race" or culture is, for Steiner,
)regulated by the laws of reincarnation.
Indeed. Waage doesn't realize that this notion, in Steiner's formulation, is
racist to the core. Waage thinks that well-meaning people cannot espouse
racist ideologies. It is this naivete, more than anything else, that makes
it impossible for him to understand anthroposophy's racist character.
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldís largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 09:35:52 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: Australian television programme on Steiner
)Here is the website for the transcript on Steiner from
)the programme Compass shown on Australian ABC the
)other week.
)Thought it may be of interest.
)http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s542330.htm
--
Debra:
Thanks Kate, I'm not finished with re4ading it but when I got to
here, I thought about how Max may react to this statement:
"Student:
I really like this pastel work because it just brings out the colour
in you, and you are able to spread. At Glenaeon they give you the
freedom to do what ever you want. "
LOL! I can just imagine the look on Max's face. This kid is towing
the party line. Had to be rehearsed.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 04 May 2002 10:40:21 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: *thinkers* report
Tom:
Can anyone direct me to the Montessori Critics Web Site?
Walden:
Good one, Tom. I have often pondered the same question. It does boggle the
mind to think of how far these Anthro/Waldorf folks have come without any
real investigation. I wonder if there is a covert master marketing plan
somewhere. Maybe, somewhere in the deep dark depths of the Goetheanum
*they* have captured some of the worlds best advertising people and are
holding them, forcing them against their will (which would actually be
pre-destined, of course) to mount a slick, pro-Waldorf campaign - without
using TV- and involving a new Steiner-ish technology to secretly - and by
osmosis - implant the notion that... Waldorf is good...Waldorf is not
strange...Try Waldorf- you'll like it...Waldorf is non-sectarian...Rudy was
a philosopher.......
My hunch is that these poor captive marketing people are the same folks who
had a whole generation of toothless teenagers believing that "Coke is the
Real thing." Of course, what is real for one might be A Separate Reality
for another. Carlos Castaneda knows all about that. (g)
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 23:41:25 -0700
From: "Sarina McDonald" (sarinamcdonald msn.com)
Subject: Montessori Critics Website
Tom:
) Can anyone direct me to the Montessori Critics Web Site?
I wish there were one! Maybe I should start it...
Since Waldorf wouldn't work for my son, we enrolled him in the local
Montessori school. I felt so hopeful that my son would be well served
in this small private school, but this year has been a real
eye-opener.
I have since decided that ANY "method," where there is ONE RIGHT WAY
laid down by a revered and DEAD guru, has very likely simply stagnated
since that guru's death. These people resist change, stick to THE
method like it's "The Word of the Lord," say they're going to do
things they have no intention of doing, make up lame excuses when
questioned by parents, change their answers depending on who is
asking...
*phew*
You joke, Tom & Walden, but you have no idea how NOT FUNNY this past
year has been to me. Frankly, I think I would have gotten more
straight answers at the Waldorf school... nah, probably not.
I give up. Next year, we're homeschooling.
Sarina McDonald
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 23:53:17 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: Montessori Critics Website
)Tom:
)) Can anyone direct me to the Montessori Critics Web Site?
)
)I wish there were one! Maybe I should start it...
Debra:
I'll join as a naive parent who knows nothing (I'm qualified).
)
)Since Waldorf wouldn't work for my son, we enrolled him in the local
)Montessori school. I felt so hopeful that my son would be well served
)in this small private school, but this year has been a real
)eye-opener.
Debra:
Yes, there is something about public schooling. They just get it. If
you aren't a flaky parent, you get immediate credit, and they work
with you! Amazingly freeing.
)
)I have since decided that ANY "method," where there is ONE RIGHT WAY
)laid down by a revered and DEAD guru, has very likely simply stagnated
)since that guru's death. These people resist change, stick to THE
)method like it's "The Word of the Lord," say they're going to do
)things they have no intention of doing, make up lame excuses when
)questioned by parents, change their answers depending on who is
)asking...
)
)*phew*
Exactly. They make little to no room for allowing your kid to be who
he/she is. Public school deals with so many of us. Caring parents
stand out. We have all the say. We can direct our kids through an
imperfect system and get our way just because we care, and it shows.
We lead public school outside it's walls. And are respected for it.
They are most prepared to think outside the box if your thinking is
actually working for your child. They love advocates.
)
)You joke, Tom & Walden, but you have no idea how NOT FUNNY this past
)year has been to me. Frankly, I think I would have gotten more
)straight answers at the Waldorf school... nah, probably not.
Yeah, Sarina. Go your own way. You have never fit in anywhere. Try
public school. They will welcome your thoughts. Make you president of
the PTA
)
)I give up. Next year, we're homeschooling.
Debra:
My unasked opinion? You are far too social for this. Try public
school. Your input is needed and will be welcomed.
--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 06:53:44 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
Marja wrote:
)
) Percedol netscape.net wrote:
)
) ) [Sune]: Your expressed opinion is 'interesting', in view of the
) ) expressed opinion by former German Chancellor Willy Brandt that "The
) ) advent of the Wald. Schools" in his opinion are "the greatest
) ) contribution to world peace and understanding of the {20th] century."
) ) (http://www.waldorf-sandiego.org/wdhistory.htm).
)
) My "interesting" opinion is based on:
) 1. My three visits to the UNESCO Exhibition.
) 2. Studies of Anthroposophy.
) 3. Our child has been there (in w-school) several years.
)
) Also King and Queen of Sweden (Carl Gustaf and Silvia) has donated big
) amount of personal money to anthros.
Italian prime minister Berlusconi
) has very strong symphaties for anthtoposophy.
Percedol:
I did not know anything of these sympathies. Do you have any articles
about it? If it were true he could introduce the threefold system tout
court!!!
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 07:00:53 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: *thinkers* report
walden wrote:
) Tom:
) Can anyone direct me to the Montessori Critics Web Site?
)
) Walden:
) Good one, Tom. I have often pondered the same question. It does boggle
) the
) mind to think of how far these Anthro/Waldorf folks have come without
) any
) real investigation. I wonder if there is a covert master marketing plan
) somewhere. Maybe, somewhere in the deep dark depths of the Goetheanum
) *they* have captured some of the worlds best advertising people and are
) holding them, forcing them against their will (which would actually be
) pre-destined, of course) to mount a slick, pro-Waldorf campaign -
) without
) using TV- and involving a new Steiner-ish technology to secretly - and
) by
) osmosis - implant the notion that... Waldorf is good...Waldorf is not
) strange...Try Waldorf- you'll like it...Waldorf is non-sectarian...Rudy
) was
) a philosopher.......
)
) My hunch is that these poor captive marketing people are the same folks
) who
) had a whole generation of toothless teenagers believing that "Coke is
) the
) Real thing." Of course, what is real for one might be A Separate
) Reality
) for another. Carlos Castaneda knows all about that. (g)
)
) -Walden
Percedol:
Without investigation? About what? You mean investigation of reality
like Steiner did, or investigation of the life and ideas of Steiner?
A covert master marketing plan? You really think to know who are the
good ones and who are the bad ones in our time?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 07:05:02 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Montessori Critics Website
Debra Snell wrote:
) )Tom:
) )) Can anyone direct me to the Montessori Critics Web Site?
) )
) )I wish there were one! Maybe I should start it...
)
)
) Debra:
)
) I'll join as a naive parent who knows nothing (I'm qualified).
)
) )
) )Since Waldorf wouldn't work for my son, we enrolled him in the local
) )Montessori school. I felt so hopeful that my son would be well served
) )in this small private school, but this year has been a real
) )eye-opener.
)
)
) Debra:
)
) Yes, there is something about public schooling. They just get it. If
) you aren't a flaky parent, you get immediate credit, and they work
) with you! Amazingly freeing.
)
)
)
) )
) )I have since decided that ANY "method," where there is ONE RIGHT WAY
) )laid down by a revered and DEAD guru, has very likely simply stagnated
) )since that guru's death. These people resist change, stick to THE
) )method like it's "The Word of the Lord," say they're going to do
) )things they have no intention of doing, make up lame excuses when
) )questioned by parents, change their answers depending on who is
) )asking...
) )
) )*phew*
)
)
) Exactly. They make little to no room for allowing your kid to be who
) he/she is. Public school deals with so many of us. Caring parents
) stand out. We have all the say. We can direct our kids through an
) imperfect system and get our way just because we care, and it shows.
) We lead public school outside it's walls. And are respected for it.
) They are most prepared to think outside the box if your thinking is
) actually working for your child. They love advocates.
)
)
)
) )
) )You joke, Tom & Walden, but you have no idea how NOT FUNNY this past
) )year has been to me. Frankly, I think I would have gotten more
) )straight answers at the Waldorf school... nah, probably not.
)
)
)
) Yeah, Sarina. Go your own way. You have never fit in anywhere. Try
) public school. They will welcome your thoughts. Make you president of
) the PTA
)
)
) )
) )I give up. Next year, we're homeschooling.
)
) Debra:
)
) My unasked opinion? You are far too social for this. Try public
) school. Your input is needed and will be welcomed.
)
Percedol:
And in any case you have been fooled! Good luck!
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 721
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Montessori Critics Website
By Tjgarr859 aol.com
Steiner on "retarding human evolution"
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: Montessori Critics Website
By sarinamcdonald msn.com
Berlusconi and TW
By marja.viita luukku.com
RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By marja.viita luukku.com
Re: Montessori Critics Website
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: Montessori Critics Website
By kateabooth yahoo.com.au
RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Montessori Critics Website
By snell gv.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 08:41:46 EDT
From: Tjgarr859 aol.com
Subject: Re: Montessori Critics Website
--part1_18d.780628b.2a06828a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 5/5/2002 3:05:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Percedol netscape.net writes:
) Percedol:
) And in any case you have been fooled! Good luck!
)
Tom:
I wonder if you have children in this school or are you just a well meaning
Anthro. who needs to convince yourself that you are on the right track?
Again, if you do have children and you have tied your wagon to this school,
be happy that it is working for you, and maybe your children. In the
meantime, turn off your electronic medium and meditate on the fact that even
if your Guru were the messiah, would not change any of our collective bad
experiences.
You may think that if we all just let Steiner into or hearts and minds that
we would see things differently and clearly, but that thought is even more
disturbing than all the bad experiences I could ever think of.
I try never to apologize for things people have written or said that are
negative, hateful, misguided, or just plain wacky. In the same token I do not
consider ideas right, or wrong. They are just ideas.
Be happy you have no questions.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 11:29:55 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Steiner on "retarding human evolution"
Okay, this is my final selection of quotes from Steiner's book The
Apocalypse of St. John. Most of these are from chapter 4, just like the last
ones on "backward races". But I can't resist adding in one passage from
earlier in the book, in light of Percedol's recent admission that he has
read this text. Compare this nugget of Steinerian wisdom with the arguments
that Percedol, who claims to represent the anthroposophical perspective,
made on the list just a week ago.
"People say very lightly today that theosophy should seek the common kernel
of truth in all religions, for the contents of all religions are the same.
People who talk like that and only compare religions in order to note the
abstract resemblance have no understanding of the principle of evolution.
World evolution is not without meaning. All religions undoubtedly contain
the truth, but inasmuch as they evolve from form to form they evolve to
higher forms." (27)
As Sharon has shown, such pronouncements are easy to find in Steiner's
works. Why do anthroposophists ignore them?
While we're pondering that perennial question, here is what Steiner has to
say after the lengthy disquisition on "race-development" and
"soul-development" that I quoted last time. Having explained the connection
between these two kinds of evolution, Steiner then notes that at present, a
person's moral/spiritual character is not always immediately evident from
their physical appearance. He continues:
"This will no longer be the case in the epoch following the great War of All
against All. Upon the forehead and in the whole physiognomy it will be
written whether the person is good or evil. He will show in his face what is
contained in his inmost soul. What a man has developed within himself,
whether he has exercised good or evil impulses, will be written on his
forehead. After the great War of All against All there will be two kinds of
human beings. Those who had previously tried to follow the call to the
spiritual life, who cultivated the spiritualizing and ennobling of their
inner spiritual life, will show this inward life on their faces and express
it in their gestures and the movements of their hands. And those who have
turned away from the spiritual life, represented by the community of
Laodicea, who were lukewarm, neither warm nor cold, will pass into the
following epoch as those who retard human evolution, who preserve the
backward forces of evolution which have been left behind. They will show the
evil passions, impulses and instincts hostile to the spiritual in an ugly,
unintelligent, evil-looking countenance. In their gestures and
hand-movements, in everything they do, they will present an outer image of
the ugliness in their soul. Just as humanity has separated into races and
communities, in the future it will divide into two great streams, the good
and the evil. And what is in their souls will be outwardly manifest, they
will no longer be able to hide it." (82)
"Man still has something within him which must separate itself from the
universal evolution as a descending branch, as the other animal forms have
done. That which man has within him as tendency to good and evil, to
cleverness and stupidity, to beauty and ugliness, represents the possibility
of an upward progress or a remaining behind. Just as the animal form has
developed out of progressing humanity, so will the race of evil with the
horrible faces develop out of it as it progresses towards spirituality and
reaches the later goal of humanity. In the future there will not only be the
animal forms which are the incarnated images of human passions, but there
will also be a race in which will live what man now hides within him as a
portion of evil, which today he can still conceal but which later will be
manifest." (84)
I hope these quotes have given a clearer sense of how Steiner conceived of
racial progress and its intimate relationship to spiritual evolution. There
are many, many more passages in other books where he develops these
abhorrent themes at length; we are lucky to have these early English
translations of some of his works, published before anthroposophists
realized that whitewashing their translations would help deflect public
scrutiny of Steiner's racism.
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldís largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 12:14:49 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
In response to the remark that Italy's prime minister Silvio Belusconi is
sympathetic toward anthroposophy, Percedol says:
)I did not know anything of these sympathies.
This is extremely odd, since Percedol himself noted these sympathies back in
March (see, for example, his posts from 3/26/02). Having problems with your
memory, Percedol? Maybe that's why you forgot the contents of Steiner's book
on the apocalypse of John....
Berlusconi sent his kids to Waldorf schools, and his wife organizes
conferences on Steiner and anthroposophy; several of Berlusconi's closest
associates are deeply involved in the Italian biodynamic scene. In 1995 the
Italian newsmagazine L'Espresso declared that "anthroposophy is [...]
developing more and more into the philosophy of Berlusconi's movement."
(Quoted in an article in the pro-anthroposophist German newspaper Die
Tageszeitung, titled "Steiner under Berlusconi's Spell", March 12 1995.) The
German article notes that Italian anthroposophy is overwhelmingly
right-wing; Percedol's contributions to this list have further confirmed
that. Percedol also writes:
)If it were true he could introduce the threefold system tout
)court!!!
I got a big kick out of this line, for several reasons. First, for those who
don't know, in addition to being prime minister Berlusconi is a corporate
media tycoon who has overseen an extremely unfortunate concentration of
private power into his own hands (he owns an enormous proportion of the
Italian media) while simultaneously concentrating state power in his own
hands through his role as head of the government. Whatever one thinks of
Steiner's abstruse "threefold system", this merging of private capital and
public state institutions plainly violates its basic precepts.
Second, for those who don't know, Berlusconi's politics are well to the
right, and his coalition partners are the heirs to Mussolini's fascist
party. Percedol has thus unwittingly endorsed an argument I made on this
list last year, which at the time was greeted with derision by the defenders
of anthroposophy, that in its usual anthroposophist understanding
"threefolding" is a fundamentally right-wing phenomenon that bears
unmistakable similarities to the corporatist strands of Italian fascism.
Maybe Percedol can get in touch with Sune and Detlef and set them straight
on this one...
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 11:15:31 -0700
From: "Sarina McDonald" (sarinamcdonald msn.com)
Subject: RE: Montessori Critics Website
No, Deby, sadly we are in one of those districts that is "the best" in
the state. They sit on their laurels - high standardized test scores
more likely related to the socioeconomic level of the parents rather
than any great efforts on the part of the schools - and they have
*nothing* for gifted kids. Nothing.
The principal at the school where my son would have to go told me "we
could lock him in an empty room for six months with nothing but a
pencil, and he'd still learn" - showing an amazing lack of
understanding of the special issues gifted kids face (social,
emotional, and academic). I have no other choice of school, by the
way, in this district you get the one you get. Oh, and did I mention
that I went to this same school (want to hear some real horror
stories)? My experience has been that most public schools are zoos.
The only good thing in this district is the homeschool resource
center... of course, HOW good remains to be seen. I no longer trust
institutions based on my research and impressions alone. I will
withhold judgement until I have direct experience.
Homeschoolers do not sit at home, Deby. They are, if anything, MORE
social because they get out into the real world much more, and
interact with a wider variety of people. Locking a bunch of same-age
children up together for hours a day, every day, is one of the most
un-natural parts of school. I actually am really looking forward to
this, and so is my son.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sarina McDonald
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 20:21:14 +0000
From: Marja (marja.viita luukku.com)
Subject: Berlusconi and TW
Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
) ... in addition to being prime minister Berlusconi is a corporate
) media tycoon who has overseen an extremely unfortunate concentration of
) private power into his own hands (he owns an enormous proportion of the
) Italian media)...
I've read that Berlusconi lets his son (Waldorf student) to watch TV
only on sundays. This is quite odd for TV-media tycoon.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 20:24:04 +0000
From: Marja (marja.viita luukku.com)
Subject: RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
) ... in addition to being prime minister Berlusconi is a corporate
) media tycoon who has overseen an extremely unfortunate concentration of
) private power into his own hands ...
I've read that Berlusconi lets his son (W-student) to watch TV only on
sundays. This is quite odd for TV-media-tycoon.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 15:40:39 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Montessori Critics Website
Sarina McDonald wrote:
The only good thing in this district is the homeschool resource
) center... of course, HOW good remains to be seen. I no longer trust
) institutions based on my research and impressions alone. I will
) withhold judgement until I have direct experience.
Walden: My hunch is that the center will be better with you involved. If
it lacks something - change it, or be part of the change.
)
) Homeschoolers do not sit at home, Deby. They are, if anything, MORE
) social because they get out into the real world much more, and
) interact with a wider variety of people. Locking a bunch of same-age
) children up together for hours a day, every day, is one of the most
) un-natural parts of school. I actually am really looking forward to
) this, and so is my son.
Walden:
When we left our Waldorf nightmare we homeschooled for a year. I was quite
apprehensive and nervous about the adventure and wrestled with all the pros
and cons. In the end we felt that we had no choice. I juggled my schedule
to fit the kids. I set up some programs with rec centres and did stuff with
other homeschoolers. We had a blast! The kids were VERY social - out in
the world and after a few months were able look at people straight in the
eye and say that they are being homeschooled - I suggested they use the term
de-schooled but they preferred the former.
Tons of learning happened and their social skills thrived. I would take
them and their friends (a bunch of us left Waldorf together) to business
meetings, if needed. It was no big deal. It seemed very natural. This
year we are combining an alternative school with home (un) schooling. So
far it works very well. I have lots of good links on the Net if you'd like
some. Let me know off list.
Have fun, Sarina!
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 09:03:22 +1000 (EST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Kate=20Booth?= (kateabooth yahoo.com.au)
Subject: Re: Montessori Critics Website
Public school has been fantastic for us also.The
school listens to the parent and we are taken
seriously. Our input is welcomed and acted upon and I
know what my son is learning why and how it will be
taught.The classroom door at least at our school is
*always* open.
I know public schooling is not perfect and
homeschooling for us at least was not an option(our
son we felt needed to be in a community of wider
social dynamics)but we have as near as we are going to
get and what he doesn't experience at school he gets
at home.This balance works well with our family.
Kate
--- Debra Snell (snell gv.net) wrote: ) )Tom:
) )) Can anyone direct me to the Montessori Critics
) Web Site?
) )
) )I wish there were one! Maybe I should start it...
)
)
) Debra:
)
) I'll join as a naive parent who knows nothing (I'm
) qualified).
)
) )
) )Since Waldorf wouldn't work for my son, we enrolled
) him in the local
) )Montessori school. I felt so hopeful that my son
) would be well served
) )in this small private school, but this year has
) been a real
) )eye-opener.
)
)
) Debra:
)
) Yes, there is something about public schooling. They
) just get it. If
) you aren't a flaky parent, you get immediate credit,
) and they work
) with you! Amazingly freeing.
)
)
)
) )
) )I have since decided that ANY "method," where there
) is ONE RIGHT WAY
) )laid down by a revered and DEAD guru, has very
) likely simply stagnated
) )since that guru's death. These people resist
) change, stick to THE
) )method like it's "The Word of the Lord," say
) they're going to do
) )things they have no intention of doing, make up
) lame excuses when
) )questioned by parents, change their answers
) depending on who is
) )asking...
) )
) )*phew*
)
)
) Exactly. They make little to no room for allowing
) your kid to be who
) he/she is. Public school deals with so many of us.
) Caring parents
) stand out. We have all the say. We can direct our
) kids through an
) imperfect system and get our way just because we
) care, and it shows.
) We lead public school outside it's walls. And are
) respected for it.
) They are most prepared to think outside the box if
) your thinking is
) actually working for your child. They love
) advocates.
)
)
)
) )
) )You joke, Tom & Walden, but you have no idea how
) NOT FUNNY this past
) )year has been to me. Frankly, I think I would have
) gotten more
) )straight answers at the Waldorf school... nah,
) probably not.
)
)
)
) Yeah, Sarina. Go your own way. You have never fit in
) anywhere. Try
) public school. They will welcome your thoughts. Make
) you president of
) the PTA
)
)
) )
) )I give up. Next year, we're homeschooling.
)
) Debra:
)
) My unasked opinion? You are far too social for this.
) Try public
) school. Your input is needed and will be welcomed.
)
)
)
) --
)
)
)
http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 00:10:42 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
) In response to the remark that Italy's prime minister Silvio Belusconi
) is
) sympathetic toward anthroposophy, Percedol says:
)
) )I did not know anything of these sympathies.
)
) This is extremely odd, since Percedol himself noted these sympathies
) back in
) March (see, for example, his posts from 3/26/02).
Percedol:
I wrote that he sent his daughters to the Waldorf school, but that does
not tell me anything about his posotion towards A. Also I have articles
from Italian newspapers about his daughters going to W-school, but thay
don't mention his position towards A. It would be good anyway!
Having problems with your
) memory, Percedol? Maybe that's why you forgot the contents of Steiner's
) book
) on the apocalypse of John....
)
) Berlusconi sent his kids to Waldorf schools, and his wife organizes
) conferences on Steiner and anthroposophy; several of Berlusconi's
) closest
) associates are deeply involved in the Italian biodynamic scene.
Percedol:
Do you know who?
Why don't you say also that also the son(s)/daugher(s) of Massimo
Cacciari (!!!!) go to Waldorf school. Cacciari
(http://www.losio.com/100citta/cacciari.htm ) is a communist politicia
and a philosopher. He was also mayor of Venice for the left wing party!!
Also in waldorf in Italy there sons of workers and extra-communitaries!
Also for those who don't have the money to pay, but can provide repairs
for the school instead!
[E accanto ai rampolli delle famiglieBerlusconi, Bassetti, Moratti,
Cacciari, siedono figli di operai o extracomunitari. "Chi non puÚ pagare
la retta (da 4 a 7 milioni) aiuta tinteggiando le aule o riparando i
rubinetti", spiega Alberti. Anche se al convegno Ë stato ricordato che
in altri paesi Europei agli istituti privati vanno contributi statali.
giovedÏ 27 gennaio 2000 Corsera]
In 1995 the
) Italian newsmagazine L'Espresso declared that "anthroposophy is [...]
) developing more and more into the philosophy of Berlusconi's movement."
Percedol:
Give full quotes in Italian.
) (Quoted in an article in the pro-anthroposophist German newspaper Die
) Tageszeitung, titled "Steiner under Berlusconi's Spell", March 12 1995.)
) The
) German article notes that Italian anthroposophy is overwhelmingly
) right-wing;
Percedol:
Give full quotes in Germany.
It is ridiculuos that A. in Italy is an exclusively right wing thing.
See Cacciari? and Moratti Letizia?
http://www.palazzochigi.it/sez_ministeri/biografie/moratti_letizia.html
[Site in Italian/English, scroll down!]
Percedol's contributions to this list have further confirmed
) that. Percedol also writes:
Percedol:
As you see it's not the case!
And to be honest the only case I have seen a (positive) citation of
Steiner from a politician was a left wing minister of the previous
governement on the Corriere delle Sera (corsera)!!!
)
) )If it were true he could introduce the threefold system tout
) )court!!!
)
) I got a big kick out of this line, for several reasons. First, for those
) who
) don't know, in addition to being prime minister Berlusconi is a
) corporate
) media tycoon who has overseen an extremely unfortunate concentration of
) private power into his own hands (he owns an enormous proportion of the
) Italian media) while simultaneously concentrating state power in his own
)
) hands through his role as head of the government. Whatever one thinks of
)
) Steiner's abstruse "threefold system", this merging of private capital
) and
) public state institutions plainly violates its basic precepts.
Percedol:
But he is not introducing threefol system as well...
And Dalema was not introducing the threefold system as well. Who knows,
maybe Cofferati, the likely-to-be-next-leader-of-DS?????
) Second, for those who don't know, Berlusconi's politics are well to the
) right,
Percedol:
The party of Berslusconi is center right.
and his coalition partners are the heirs to Mussolini's fascist
) party.
Percedol:
Bossi's Lega Nord is very stronlgy anti-fascist!!!
Fini's AN (a democratic party!, just like the DS-Democrats of the Left)
has cut its ties with the past (they started at Fiuggi years ago) in
their recent meeting a few weeks ago, and now they represent just an
institutional right wing party. No fascism heritage anymore.
In Italy we have a center-right and a center-left. These are democratic
formations and any speaking of fascism about either of them is at this
point useless. Save it for the extreme right parties, like the 'Fronte
Nazionale', etc.
Percedol has thus unwittingly endorsed
Percedol:
I didn't!
an argument I made on this
) list last year, which at the time was greeted with derision by the
) defenders
) of anthroposophy, that in its usual anthroposophist understanding
) "threefolding" is a fundamentally right-wing phenomenon
Percedol:
And it's not, in fact! I don't care who introduces the threefol system.
It could be Putin and it would be good for me. Unfortunately, I don't
think Putin has heard of the threefold system.
that bears
) unmistakable similarities to the corporatist strands of Italian fascism.
)
) Maybe Percedol can get in touch with Sune and Detlef and set them
) straight
) on this one...
Percedol:
I tell them that the threefold system is not a political thing. It has
no color.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 20:56:11 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
)From: Percedol netscape.net
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
)Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 00:10:42 +0000
)
)Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
) ) In response to the remark that Italy's prime minister Silvio Belusconi
) ) is
) ) sympathetic toward anthroposophy, Percedol says:
) )
) ) )I did not know anything of these sympathies.
) )
) ) This is extremely odd, since Percedol himself noted these sympathies
) ) back in
) ) March (see, for example, his posts from 3/26/02).
)
)Percedol:
)I wrote that he sent his daughters to the Waldorf school, but that does
)not tell me anything about his posotion towards A. Also I have articles
)from Italian newspapers about his daughters going to W-school, but thay
)don't mention his position towards A. It would be good anyway!
)
)
) Having problems with your
) ) memory, Percedol? Maybe that's why you forgot the contents of Steiner's
) ) book
) ) on the apocalypse of John....
) )
) ) Berlusconi sent his kids to Waldorf schools, and his wife organizes
) ) conferences on Steiner and anthroposophy; several of Berlusconi's
) ) closest
) ) associates are deeply involved in the Italian biodynamic scene.
)
)Percedol:
)Do you know who?
)Why don't you say also that also the son(s)/daugher(s) of Massimo
)Cacciari (!!!!) go to Waldorf school. Cacciari
)(http://www.losio.com/100citta/cacciari.htm ) is a communist politicia
)and a philosopher. He was also mayor of Venice for the left wing party!!
)Also in waldorf in Italy there sons of workers and extra-communitaries!
)Also for those who don't have the money to pay, but can provide repairs
)for the school instead!
)
)[E accanto ai rampolli delle famiglieBerlusconi, Bassetti, Moratti,
)Cacciari, siedono figli di operai o extracomunitari. "Chi non puÚ pagare
)la retta (da 4 a 7 milioni) aiuta tinteggiando le aule o riparando i
)rubinetti", spiega Alberti. Anche se al convegno Ë stato ricordato che
)in altri paesi Europei agli istituti privati vanno contributi statali.
)giovedÏ 27 gennaio 2000 Corsera]
)
)
)
) In 1995 the
) ) Italian newsmagazine L'Espresso declared that "anthroposophy is [...]
) ) developing more and more into the philosophy of Berlusconi's movement."
)
)
)Percedol:
)Give full quotes in Italian.
)
)
) ) (Quoted in an article in the pro-anthroposophist German newspaper Die
) ) Tageszeitung, titled "Steiner under Berlusconi's Spell", March 12 1995.)
) ) The
) ) German article notes that Italian anthroposophy is overwhelmingly
) ) right-wing;
)
)Percedol:
)Give full quotes in Germany.
)It is ridiculuos that A. in Italy is an exclusively right wing thing.
)See Cacciari? and Moratti Letizia?
)
)http://www.palazzochigi.it/sez_ministeri/biografie/moratti_letizia.html
)[Site in Italian/English, scroll down!]
)
)Percedol's contributions to this list have further confirmed
) ) that. Percedol also writes:
)
)
)Percedol:
)As you see it's not the case!
)And to be honest the only case I have seen a (positive) citation of
)Steiner from a politician was a left wing minister of the previous
)governement on the Corriere delle Sera (corsera)!!!
)
) )
) ) )If it were true he could introduce the threefold system tout
) ) )court!!!
) )
) ) I got a big kick out of this line, for several reasons. First, for those
) ) who
) ) don't know, in addition to being prime minister Berlusconi is a
) ) corporate
) ) media tycoon who has overseen an extremely unfortunate concentration of
) ) private power into his own hands (he owns an enormous proportion of the
) ) Italian media) while simultaneously concentrating state power in his own
) )
) ) hands through his role as head of the government. Whatever one thinks of
) )
) ) Steiner's abstruse "threefold system", this merging of private capital
) ) and
) ) public state institutions plainly violates its basic precepts.
)
)Percedol:
)But he is not introducing threefol system as well...
)
)And Dalema was not introducing the threefold system as well. Who knows,
)maybe Cofferati, the likely-to-be-next-leader-of-DS?????
)
)
)
) ) Second, for those who don't know, Berlusconi's politics are well to the
) ) right,
)
)Percedol:
)The party of Berslusconi is center right.
)
)and his coalition partners are the heirs to Mussolini's fascist
) ) party.
)
)Percedol:
)Bossi's Lega Nord is very stronlgy anti-fascist!!!
)Fini's AN (a democratic party!, just like the DS-Democrats of the Left)
)has cut its ties with the past (they started at Fiuggi years ago) in
)their recent meeting a few weeks ago, and now they represent just an
)institutional right wing party. No fascism heritage anymore.
)
)In Italy we have a center-right and a center-left. These are democratic
)formations and any speaking of fascism about either of them is at this
)point useless. Save it for the extreme right parties, like the 'Fronte
)Nazionale', etc.
)
)
)Percedol has thus unwittingly endorsed
)
)Percedol:
)I didn't!
)
)an argument I made on this
) ) list last year, which at the time was greeted with derision by the
) ) defenders
) ) of anthroposophy, that in its usual anthroposophist understanding
) ) "threefolding" is a fundamentally right-wing phenomenon
)
)Percedol:
)And it's not, in fact! I don't care who introduces the threefol system.
)It could be Putin and it would be good for me. Unfortunately, I don't
)think Putin has heard of the threefold system.
)
)
)that bears
) ) unmistakable similarities to the corporatist strands of Italian fascism.
) )
) ) Maybe Percedol can get in touch with Sune and Detlef and set them
) ) straight
) ) on this one...
)
)
)Percedol:
)I tell them that the threefold system is not a political thing. It has
)no color.
)
)
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 21:23:49 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
)Percedol:
)Give full quotes in Italian.
)Percedol:
)Give full quotes in Germany.
What on earth for? This list is in English, thus I translated the quote into
English. I have the German article right here in front of me; is there
something else you'd like me to quote from it?
)It is ridiculuos that A. in Italy is an exclusively right wing thing.
"Overwhelmingly" doesn't mean exclusively. The point is that Italian
anthroposophy leans strongly rightward, according to this article, thus
marking an important difference to anthroposophy in Scandinavia, for
example. Russian anthroposophy is reportedly similar to the Italian variant
in this respect.
)Percedol:
)Bossi's Lega Nord is very stronlgy anti-fascist!!!
Oy, you are an incorrigibly credulous sort, Percedol. Of course the Northern
Leagues aren't fascist, but to describe them as "anti-fascist" is to make a
mockery of these terms. For those interested, I recommend Roger Eatwell's
nuanced discussion of Bossi, Fini, Berlusconi et al in his book Fascism: A
History, pp. 260-271.
)Fini's AN (a democratic party!, just like the DS-Democrats of the Left)
)has cut its ties with the past (they started at Fiuggi years ago) in
)their recent meeting a few weeks ago, and now they represent just an
)institutional right wing party. No fascism heritage anymore.
Those are cosmetic changes, Percedol, the things politicians routinely do to
fool people like you. In any case, I said that the AN is heir to Mussolini's
fascist party, which is indisputably true. Are you pretending to be unaware
that the AN was formed out of the MSI?
)Percedol:
)I tell them that the threefold system is not a political thing.
That's as ridiculous as your claim from a few months ago that threefolding
is democratic. Before I make fun of you again for not knowing what you're
talking about, could you say up front just what you have read by Steiner
that gave you these ideas about threefolding? You don't have to give exact
quotes (though that would certainly be interesting), just tell us which
books or articles you've read on the topic. It would save a lot of time. By
the way, do you plan on backing up your statements about Steiner's book on
the apocalypse of John?
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 00:53:06 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: RE: UNESCO Waldorf Education - Exhibition Catalogue
Peter Staudenmaier (pstaud hotmail.com) wrote:
)
))Percedol:
))Give full quotes in Italian.
))Percedol:
))Give full quotes in Germany.
)
)What on earth for? This list is in English, thus I translated the quote into
)English. I have the German article right here in front of me; is there
)something else you'd like me to quote from it?
Percedol:
The full articles. And the exact date of the issue of l'espresso!
)
))It is ridiculuos that A. in Italy is an exclusively right wing thing.
)
)"Overwhelmingly" doesn't mean exclusively. The point is that Italian
)anthroposophy leans strongly rightward, according to this article, thus
)marking an important difference to anthroposophy in Scandinavia, for
)example. Russian anthroposophy is reportedly similar to the Italian variant
)in this respect.
Percedol:
Is there an 'political' census of all the anthroposophists in Italy?
Also because many are members of the Society and it would be hard to
make the census accurate. If you refer only to prominent figures,
like politicians and intellectuals, or business men I have no idea.
Nor I care. The only people who you can count are those from the
right wing, meaning AN and the far right. Berlusconi is not right
wing. Fini is right wing. Bossi hates the right wing, but apparently
less than the communists.
)
))Percedol:
))Bossi's Lega Nord is very stronlgy anti-fascist!!!
)
)Oy, you are an incorrigibly credulous sort, Percedol. Of course the Northern
)Leagues aren't fascist, but to describe them as "anti-fascist" is to make a
)mockery of these terms.
Percedol:
Except for what came out of the MSI, everybody in Italy is anti-fascist.
Italy is anti-fascist in its Constitution and to be apologetic of
fascism in Italy is a crime (Scelba law).
For those interested, I recommend Roger Eatwell's
)nuanced discussion of Bossi, Fini, Berlusconi et al in his book Fascism: A
)History, pp. 260-271.
Percedol:
Give quotes. In any language. Also chinese and japanese are OK.
)
))Fini's AN (a democratic party!, just like the DS-Democrats of the Left)
))has cut its ties with the past (they started at Fiuggi years ago) in
))their recent meeting a few weeks ago, and now they represent just an
))institutional right wing party. No fascism heritage anymore.
)
)Those are cosmetic changes, Percedol, the things politicians routinely do to
)fool people like you.
Percedol:
And the same should be said of the Democrats of the Left, ex-PCI
(Italian Communist Party). Things change. And what you call
'cosmetic' was something that Almirante never did! At least both
sides are trying to get over their past. Those who don't want to
change can stay with the far right wing or with the far left wing of
Bertinotti.
In any case, I said that the AN is heir to Mussolini's
)fascist party, which is indisputably true. Are you pretending to be unaware
)that the AN was formed out of the MSI?
Percedol:
And Fini who was the favourite of Almirante changed direction and is
making AN a regular right wing party. The Republicans and the Tories
are right wing too.
We cannot have a contry with only a left wing and two parties: the
ex-communists and the far-left wing. (Well, then there are also the
Radicals of Pannella and Bonino...).
)
))Percedol:
))I tell them that the threefold system is not a political thing.
)
)That's as ridiculous as your claim from a few months ago that threefolding
)is democratic.
Percedol:
You think I meant democratic like in 'Christian Democrat'?
I would never do that.
I mean that is democratic as opposed to a regime.
Before I make fun of you again for not knowing what you're
)talking about, could you say up front just what you have read by Steiner
)that gave you these ideas about threefolding? You don't have to give exact
)quotes (though that would certainly be interesting), just tell us which
)books or articles you've read on the topic.
Here and there from Steiner, plus a book by Scaligero, plus articles
by Anthroposophists. But I never said I am an authority in this
matter.
I leave the social topic to other A. who want to discuss it.
It would save a lot of time. By
)the way, do you plan on backing up your statements about Steiner's book on
)the apocalypse of John?
Percedol:
There are many posts I have to reply to. Some are getting old.
The apocalypse of John cycle is great.
I will post about it. In the meantime I haven't seen anything but the
fact that good and bad are not related to races. Good and bad people
will come out from every race, from every people, and it is an
individual decision. In fact you did not reply to my observation that
it cannot be that one turns evil because is not incarnated in a
specific ethnic group. Evil is everywhere, but to state that is
related to a race, well that's absurd. You should reconsider your
post.
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Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 22:22:02 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: RE: Montessori Critics Website
)No, Deby, sadly we are in one of those districts that is "the best" in
)the state. They sit on their laurels - high standardized test scores
)more likely related to the socioeconomic level of the parents rather
)than any great efforts on the part of the schools - and they have
)*nothing* for gifted kids. Nothing.
Debra:
(sigh)
)
)The principal at the school where my son would have to go told me "we
)could lock him in an empty room for six months with nothing but a
)pencil, and he'd still learn" - showing an amazing lack of
)understanding of the special issues gifted kids face (social,
)emotional, and academic). I have no other choice of school, by the
)way, in this district you get the one you get. Oh, and did I mention
)that I went to this same school (want to hear some real horror
)stories)? My experience has been that most public schools are zoos.
Debra:
I know that illness well. Some school administrators are just handed
down, generation by generation. You'd have to take them hostage to
get change. Where you live is a prime target for this mentality.
)
)The only good thing in this district is the homeschool resource
)center... of course, HOW good remains to be seen. I no longer trust
)institutions based on my research and impressions alone. I will
)withhold judgement until I have direct experience.
)
)Homeschoolers do not sit at home, Deby. They are, if anything, MORE
)social because they get out into the real world much more, and
)interact with a wider variety of people. Locking a bunch of same-age
)children up together for hours a day, every day, is one of the most
)un-natural parts of school. I actually am really looking forward to
)this, and so is my son.
Deby:
Well, based on what you said, I agree. Sarina, I know you well enough
to know that you will not only pull it off, but you will pull it off
well. Have you ever noticed you have a perfectionist gene? LOL!
--
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 722
-- Topica Digest --
public schools/homeschooling
By momof2gals mindspring.com
more delirium from Percedol
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: more delirium from Percedol
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: more delirium from Percedol
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: Re: more delirium from Percedol
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: *thinkers* report
By feetapparel hotmail.com
RE: more delirium from Percedol
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: more delirium from Percedol
By snell gv.net
membership numbers?
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 07:51:25 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: public schools/homeschooling
In response to Debbie's (lighthearted, I think!) suggestions that Sarina
give the public schools in her area a try, Sarina says:
((Homeschoolers do not sit at home, Deby. They are, if anything, MORE
social because they get out into the real world much more, and
interact with a wider variety of people. Locking a bunch of same-age
children up together for hours a day, every day, is one of the most
un-natural parts of school. I actually am really looking forward to
this, and so is my son.))
Lisa here: I am sorry to hear that Montessori did not work out for your son
and you, Sarina. I personally have never liked (what I know of) Montessori
because it seemed very rigid to me. (At our local Montessori school,
children are instructed on the "right" way to pick up chairs, so as not to
make noise. Almost everything is broken down into steps.) On the other hand,
I know of families and children who rave about their Montessori experiences,
and whose children (both average and gifted) go on to do very well -- and to
be very happy! -- in later life.
Though I would certainly not try to talk you out of homeschooling (that
is not my place, and besides, I think homeschooling is a great idea in many
situations, especially when the parent-teacher is well educated and good
with children, as are you!), I do want to make a comment about both your
insistence that public schools are usually "zoos" and that placing children
with others their own age for a number of hours a day is "unnatural."
Public schools/zoo, first: though I have no personal knowledge of your
local school district, you did tell us in another message that it had high
test scores and was considered very good. Then you went on to say that the
system has no facilities, etc. for gifted children.
Are you sure, Sarina? (Knowing you, I am guessing you are! (g)) Most
school systems, especially those with high test scores and a good
reputation, have classes designated for students identified ( yes, by
testing) as Gifted and Talented. My older daughter, Olivia (now 12 and a 6th
grader at a very good college preparatory school) spent her fifth grade year
in the GT program in our local public elementary school, and had a very
positive experience. Not only was the curriculum very good to great, but the
teachers also were exceptional -- interested in our child, accessible,
creative and kind.
And while there *were* some children whose behavior ocassionally left
something to be desired (mostly on-the-cusp adolescents who wanted to act
like full fledged teenagers), I would never use the word "zoo" to describe
them!
As to it being "unnatural" to place children with their peers, well,
aren't many -- if not most -- things we do today as human beings
"unnatural?" We drive cars, eat food from the supermarket, wear clothing
even when it's hot ... I could go on and name hundreds of things!
My daughters *love* their schools and their classmates, and are learning
as much -- if not more -- from interacting with a variety of children each
day than they are from the curriculum. Of course, this is just what works
for *our* family. If, at any time, we felt that "institutionalized"
education was not working, well, we certainly would not hesitate to
homeschool.
My guess is that you will be an amazing teacher, and that your son will
benefit. Good luck!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 11:03:03 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: more delirium from Percedol
) )I have the German article right here in front of me; is there
) )something else you'd like me to quote from it?
)
)Percedol:
)The full articles. And the exact date of the issue of l'espresso!
I just gave you the citation for the German article yesterday, and clearly
explained that the L'Espresso quote was taken from the German article. Are
you sure you're paying attention here? The article is by Werner Raith, the
taz's Italian correspondent, datelined Milan, under the title "Steiner im
Banne Berlusconis" [Steiner under Berlusconi's spell], published in Die
Tageszeitung of March 12 1995, p. 15. The subtitle reads, "In Italy
anthroposophy is coming increasingly under the influence of right-wing
circles."
)Percedol:
)Is there an 'political' census of all the anthroposophists in Italy?
You sound like Tarjei. These are journalists we're talking about, not
statisticians.
)Berlusconi is not right wing.
That is utterly preposterous. No wonder you can't make any sense of folks
like Evola.
)Percedol:
)Except for what came out of the MSI, everybody in Italy is anti-fascist.
Sure, and nobody cheats on their spouse or calls in sick when they're not or
fibs on their taxes or drives over the speed limit.......
)For those interested, I recommend Roger Eatwell's
) )nuanced discussion of Bossi, Fini, Berlusconi et al in his book Fascism:
)A
) )History, pp. 260-271.
)
)
)Percedol:
)Give quotes. In any language. Also chinese and japanese are OK.
Chinese and Japanese are not OK on this list, which relies on English as its
language of communication. If you post something in another language, you
need to translate it. More to the point, several weeks ago I gave very
extensive quotes from Eatwell's book, which made every single thing you said
about Evola look ridiculous. You had nothing to say about those quotes. Why
not? Do you plan on saying anything about these further quotes from Eatwell?
Eatwell discusses Bossi, Fini, and Berlusconi in chapter 11, "Neofascism in
Italy". He describes Bossi (leader of the xenophobic Northern Leagues, ally
of the 'post-fascist' right) as "a master of manipulating the media" (265),
which might explain why gullible characters like Percedol think that
right-wingers like Bossi are opposed to the right wing. Eatwell continues:
"Bossi proved particularly adept at exploiting a sense of historical
difference between the "productive" north and the "African" south. Belief in
northern supremacy had the advantage of seeming to legitimize anti-immigrant
politics. Immigrants did not simply take jobs or become involved in crime --
they posed a danger to the very soul of the "Lombard" nation. Bossi even
talked of multicultural society as being like Hell." (265)
There is an enormous literature (much of it in English) on Bossi and the
Northern Leagues. To choose one example, Hans-Georg Betz devotes a
considerable portion of his book *Radical Right-Wing Populism in Western
Europe* to Bossi and the League, and explicitly characterizes them as a
"radical right-wing populist party" (10; also 117 and 160). Bossi's
underlings have been ranting for over a decade about the decline of Italy
due to "the invasion of Arabs and negroes". Once again, anthroposophists
just can't recognize racism when they see it.
)Percedol:
)You think I meant democratic like in 'Christian Democrat'?
)I would never do that.
)I mean that is democratic as opposed to a regime.
Steiner's threefolding scheme is explicitly anti-democratic in two of its
three spheres. How can you be unaware of that?
)I leave the social topic to other A. who want to discuss it.
Then why do you keep making silly and unsubstantiated claims about it?
)The apocalypse of John cycle is great.
So you agree with what Steiner says there about "backward races" who "retard
human evolution"? You agree that "lower forms" of humanity, which are
"incapable of developing", must be "thrown out" and "destroyed" because they
are "not worthy to take part in the ascent of humanity"? You agree that
these "lower forms" must be eliminated so that humnakind can "purify itself"
and "rise upward"?
)I will post about it. In the meantime I haven't seen anything but the fact
)that good and bad are not related to races.
Steiner says that in the future good and evil *are* races --not just
"related to" but identical with. How did you manage to miss that in your
reading of the book?
)In fact you did not reply to my observation that it cannot be that one
)turns evil because is not incarnated in a specific ethnic group.
There's nothing to reply to, except to point out that you are either lying
about having read the book or you're just incapable of reading. Steiner says
exactly the opposite of what you just said. I just quoted all of it for you
over the past several days. The "race of evil" is indeed a specific ethnic
group, physically distinct from "the good race". Evrybody else on this list
read those same passages. Why didn't you?
)Evil is everywhere, but to state that is related to a race, well that's
)absurd.
Of course it's absurd. Most of what Steiner said is absurd. But that he said
it is a fact, one that you need to deal with.
)You should reconsider your post.
The posts we're talking about were direct, unadulterated quotations from
Steiner's book. What is there to reconsider? I gave you pages and pages
worth of Steiner in his own words. Why do you continue to pretend these
passages don't exist? They're right there in black and white, in a book that
you claim to have read already, and I quoted these passages accurately and
in full. Is there something stoppimg you from reading them?
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 13:07:16 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: more delirium from Percedol
Peter Staudenmaier (pstaud hotmail.com) wrote:
)
)) )I have the German article right here in front of me; is there
)) )something else you'd like me to quote from it?
))
))Percedol:
))The full articles. And the exact date of the issue of l'espresso!
)
)I just gave you the citation for the German article yesterday, and clearly
)explained that the L'Espresso quote was taken from the German article. Are
)you sure you're paying attention here? The article is by Werner Raith, the
)taz's Italian correspondent, datelined Milan, under the title "Steiner im
)Banne Berlusconis" [Steiner under Berlusconi's spell], published in Die
)Tageszeitung of March 12 1995, p. 15. The subtitle reads, "In Italy
)anthroposophy is coming increasingly under the influence of right-wing
)circles."
)
))Percedol:
))Is there an 'political' census of all the anthroposophists in Italy?
)
)You sound like Tarjei. These are journalists we're talking about, not
)statisticians.
)
))Berlusconi is not right wing.
)
)That is utterly preposterous. No wonder you can't make any sense of folks
)like Evola.
))Percedol:
))Except for what came out of the MSI, everybody in Italy is anti-fascist.
)
)Sure, and nobody cheats on their spouse or calls in sick when they're not or
)fibs on their taxes or drives over the speed limit.......
Percedol:
Just like the americans!
)
))For those interested, I recommend Roger Eatwell's
)) )nuanced discussion of Bossi, Fini, Berlusconi et al in his book Fascism:
))A
)) )History, pp. 260-271.
))
))
))Percedol:
))Give quotes. In any language. Also chinese and japanese are OK.
)
)Chinese and Japanese are not OK on this list, which relies on English as its
)language of communication.
Percedol:
You have a great sense of humor!
If you post something in another language, you
)need to translate it. More to the point, several weeks ago I gave very
)extensive quotes from Eatwell's book, which made every single thing you said
)about Evola look ridiculous.
Percedol:
I have more about Evola.
You had nothing to say about those quotes. Why
)not? Do you plan on saying anything about these further quotes from Eatwell?
)
)Eatwell discusses Bossi, Fini, and Berlusconi in chapter 11, "Neofascism in
)Italy". He describes Bossi (leader of the xenophobic Northern Leagues, ally
)of the 'post-fascist' right) as "a master of manipulating the media" (265),
)which might explain why gullible characters like Percedol think that
)right-wingers like Bossi are opposed to the right wing. Eatwell continues:
)"Bossi proved particularly adept at exploiting a sense of historical
)difference between the "productive" north and the "African" south. Belief in
)northern supremacy had the advantage of seeming to legitimize anti-immigrant
)politics. Immigrants did not simply take jobs or become involved in crime --
)they posed a danger to the very soul of the "Lombard" nation. Bossi even
)talked of multicultural society as being like Hell." (265)
)
)There is an enormous literature (much of it in English) on Bossi and the
)Northern Leagues. To choose one example, Hans-Georg Betz devotes a
)considerable portion of his book *Radical Right-Wing Populism in Western
)Europe* to Bossi and the League, and explicitly characterizes them as a
)"radical right-wing populist party" (10; also 117 and 160). Bossi's
)underlings have been ranting for over a decade about the decline of Italy
)due to "the invasion of Arabs and negroes". Once again, anthroposophists
)just can't recognize racism when they see it.
Percedol:
Whatever you say I have never stood Bossi. If it were for me I would
never ally with him.
)
))Percedol:
))You think I meant democratic like in 'Christian Democrat'?
))I would never do that.
))I mean that is democratic as opposed to a regime.
)
)Steiner's threefolding scheme is explicitly anti-democratic in two of its
)three spheres. How can you be unaware of that?
Percedol:
Yeah, sure!
)
))I leave the social topic to other A. who want to discuss it.
)
)Then why do you keep making silly and unsubstantiated claims about it?
)
))The apocalypse of John cycle is great.
)
)So you agree with what Steiner says there about "backward races" who "retard
)human evolution"? You agree that "lower forms" of humanity, which are
)"incapable of developing", must be "thrown out" and "destroyed" because they
)are "not worthy to take part in the ascent of humanity"? You agree that
)these "lower forms" must be eliminated so that humnakind can "purify itself"
)and "rise upward"?
Percedol:
Your distortions!
)
))I will post about it. In the meantime I haven't seen anything but the fact
))that good and bad are not related to races.
)
)Steiner says that in the future good and evil *are* races --not just
)"related to" but identical with. How did you manage to miss that in your
)reading of the book?
Percedol:
The races of good and evil of the sixth epoch have no correlation
with today's ethnic groups.
)
))In fact you did not reply to my observation that it cannot be that one
))turns evil because is not incarnated in a specific ethnic group.
)
)There's nothing to reply to, except to point out that you are either lying
)about having read the book or you're just incapable of reading. Steiner says
)exactly the opposite of what you just said. I just quoted all of it for you
)over the past several days. The "race of evil" is indeed a specific ethnic
)group, physically distinct from "the good race". Evrybody else on this list
)read those same passages. Why didn't you?
Percedol:
Again, the race of evil will come out from every ethnic group and
nation of the world.
))Evil is everywhere, but to state that is related to a race, well that's
))absurd.
)
)Of course it's absurd. Most of what Steiner said is absurd. But that he said
)it is a fact, one that you need to deal with.
)
))You should reconsider your post.
)
)The posts we're talking about were direct, unadulterated quotations from
)Steiner's book. What is there to reconsider? I gave you pages and pages
)worth of Steiner in his own words. Why do you continue to pretend these
)passages don't exist? They're right there in black and white, in a book that
)you claim to have read already, and I quoted these passages accurately and
)in full. Is there something stoppimg you from reading them?
)
)Peter S.
)
Percedol:
More next.
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 10:45:55 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: more delirium from Percedol
Walden: Excuse me for hopping into the conversation but...
Peter S wrote:
)So you agree with what Steiner says there about "backward races" who
"retard
)human evolution"? You agree that "lower forms" of humanity, which are
)"incapable of developing", must be "thrown out" and "destroyed" because
they
)are "not worthy to take part in the ascent of humanity"? You agree that
)these "lower forms" must be eliminated so that humnakind can "purify
itself"
)and "rise upward"?
Percedol relied:
Your distortions!
Walden:
Percedol, could please elaborate on the above? I am trying to follow this
thread and enjoy the learning process a great deal. It is difficult,
however, to understand your views when you do not explain yourself. It
would be much more valuable, IMO, if you were to answer questions and offer
opinions as one might do in an ordinary conversation. Thanks.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:28:37 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Re: more delirium from Percedol
walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca) wrote:
)Walden: ÝExcuse me for hopping into the conversation but...
)
)Peter S wrote:
))So you agree with what Steiner says there about "backward races" who
)"retard
))human evolution"? You agree that "lower forms" of humanity, which are
))"incapable of developing", must be "thrown out" and "destroyed" because
)they
))are "not worthy to take part in the ascent of humanity"? You agree that
))these "lower forms" must be eliminated so that humnakind can "purify
)itself"
))and "rise upward"?
)
)Percedol relied:
)Your distortions!
)
)Walden:
)Percedol, could please elaborate on the above? ÝI am trying to follow this
)thread and enjoy the learning process a great deal. ÝIt is difficult,
)however, to understand your views when you do not explain yourself. ÝIt
)would be much more valuable, IMO, if you were to answer questions and offer
)opinions as one might do in an ordinary conversation. ÝThanks.
)
)-Walden
Percedol:
Yes, but I need some time. There are too many posts to reply to. And
time is limited. There are also older posts from Peter S. and some by
Sharon (in particular the one when she quoted one of her favourites).
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 22:24:09 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: *thinkers* report
Peter Staudenmaier wrote
)One of the statistics in the article (the 57.5% figure, which Peter F noted
)as well) is probably misleading outside of a German context. The German
)school system beyond the primary/intermediate level is divided into three
)very different types of high school, and only one of those three types (the
)Gymnasium) typically leads on toward university education, which remains
)the
)privilege of a relatively small minority. Gymnasiun enrollment is in turn
)tightly correlated to class; if you come from a middle class or
)professional
)family, you're much more likely to go there and hence on to university. The
)statistic Ullrich cites is for Waldorf pupils who have passed the Abitur
)(or
)perhaps merely taken the Abitur; it isn't clear from the context), the huge
)test that pupils graduating from a Gymnasium must take if they want to go
)to
)university. As Ullrich explains in the preceding paragraph, German Waldorf
)pupils generally come from professional and middle-class families, thus the
)Abitur statistic is not at all surprising when compared to general
)statistics for all state schools. This tells us more about the social basis
)of Waldorf's clientele than it does about the quality of education offered.
)
Something similar is also true in Australia, where we have a state school
system which takes everybody and anybody and a whole lot of different
private schools which may be much more selective. Waldorf schools and some
others aside, the attractiveness of such schools to parents is largely
related to academic success particularly as measured by the students'
success in entrance to tertiary education. The comparison of tertiary
entrance success rates of an Australian School against the success rate in
the state school system would be less than helpful. The reference in the
article from which the statistic came might have some more data which would
allow a more useful measure to be determined.
At least at one time, the oldest local Waldorf schools advertised that all
of its final year students obtained University entrance into their desired
course. Even this requires some explanation in the AUstralian setting,
because students can usually obtain a realistic expectation of what they
might successfully apply for, and what they might reasonably expect to be
unsuccessful for in their applications.
See you, Peter
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 18:05:46 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: more delirium from Percedol
Percedol wrote:
) ))The apocalypse of John cycle is great.
I then asked him:
) )So you agree with what Steiner says there about "backward races" who
)"retard
) )human evolution"? You agree that "lower forms" of humanity, which are
) )"incapable of developing", must be "thrown out" and "destroyed" because
)they
) )are "not worthy to take part in the ascent of humanity"? You agree that
) )these "lower forms" must be eliminated so that humnakind can "purify
)itself"
) )and "rise upward"?
Percedol now replies:
)Your distortions!
Those aren't distortions, they're direct quotes from Steiner. I gave the
full passages in my previous posts. How did I "distort" them? If you have
the Italian edition in front of you, look up the parts I quoted and explain
what was missing or misleading about my quotes. If you don't have the book
with you, you can still go back to my four long posts with the full text and
tell us where you think I have "distorted" Steiner's meaning. If you can't
do either of those things, then what are you talking about?
Peter S.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 22:47:07 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: more delirium from Percedol
)Walden: Excuse me for hopping into the conversation but...
)
)Peter S wrote:
))So you agree with what Steiner says there about "backward races" who
)"retard
))human evolution"? You agree that "lower forms" of humanity, which are
))"incapable of developing", must be "thrown out" and "destroyed" because
)they
))are "not worthy to take part in the ascent of humanity"? You agree that
))these "lower forms" must be eliminated so that humnakind can "purify
)itself"
))and "rise upward"?
)
)Percedol relied:
)Your distortions!
)
)Walden:
)Percedol, could please elaborate on the above? I am trying to follow this
)thread and enjoy the learning process a great deal. It is difficult,
)however, to understand your views when you do not explain yourself. It
)would be much more valuable, IMO, if you were to answer questions and offer
)opinions as one might do in an ordinary conversation. Thanks.
)
)-Walden
Debra:
(psst Walden! You are attempting to communicate with someone who has
his fingers in his ears. Also, about that noise you may be hearing. .
. Well, that LaLaLaLaLa sound is coming out of his mouth. He is
plugging his ears and singing over you, not talking *with* you.)
Sorry, but when there's a white elephant in my living room, I notice.
I guess I've run around one too many bushes lately.
--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 23:09:16 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: membership numbers?
Would anyone happen to have any membership numbers for Anthroposophy? I
realize it would be difficult to estimate and membership *could* be
perceived as being one of the *chosen* pockets of missionaries to a wanna be
guru in a Waldorf classroom to the local Biodynamic gardener - but an
estimation based on some study, perhaps?
I am trying to get an idea of the scope of this movement as it might be
compared to Scientology, for example.
-Walden
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 723
-- Topica Digest --
RE: Re: more time
By Percedol netscape.net
spiritual philosophy
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: Preparing to attend Open House in Vancouver
By harlanfamily earthlink.net
Re: Re: more time
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: Re: Re: more time
By Percedol netscape.net
Waldorf Preschool
By jking1 ora.fda.gov
Waldorf Preschool
By jking1 ora.fda.gov
TEST-IGNORE
By jking1 ora.fda.gov
Waldorf Preschool
By jking1 ora.fda.gov
RE: Waldorf Preschool
By Percedol netscape.net
re: Waldorf preschool
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Waldorf Preschool
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: Waldorf Preschool
By snell gv.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:28:30 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Re: more time
))Walden:
))Percedol, could please elaborate on the above? ÝI am trying to follow this
))thread and enjoy the learning process a great deal. ÝIt is difficult,
))however, to understand your views when you do not explain yourself. ÝIt
))would be much more valuable, IMO, if you were to answer questions and offer
))opinions as one might do in an ordinary conversation. ÝThanks.
))
))-Walden
)
)
)Debra:
)
)(psst Walden! You are attempting to communicate with someone who has
)his fingers in his ears. Also, about that noise you may be hearing. .
). Well, that LaLaLaLaLa Ýsound is coming out of his mouth. He is
)plugging his ears and singing over you, not talking *with* you.)
)
)Sorry, but when there's a white elephant in my living room, I notice.
)
)I guess I've run around one too many bushes lately.
)--
Percedol:
Thanks for your respect! It tells a lot about PLANS.
I will reply to previous and Peter's posts according to time availability.
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 10:00:39 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: spiritual philosophy
From:
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v00/n1472/a11.html
"HEALTHY MIND, HEALTHY GENERATION
What does it take to fight the global epidemic of teenage drug abuse
effectively? While many advocate stricter law enforcement and political and
social reform, a well-known therapeutic educator from Germany insists drug
abuse is best fought at its very root-the user's mind."
Walden: The user's mind. And while they are at it - how about the soul?
Three guesses as to the nature of the therapy...?
Later in the article...
"The Steiner Philosophy
Anthroposophy-upon which Felicitas Vogt's drug treatment method is
based-literally means "the wisdom of man".
While labelled an "occult religion" by some due to its spiritual dimension,
anthroposophy can be roughly defined as knowledge and practical techniques
based on the body of teaching given out by the Austrian-born spiritual
philosopher and educator, Rudolf Steiner ( 1861-1925 )."
Walden:
"Knowledge and practical techniques...." At least Steiner is not simply a
thinker, educator, scientist or even a mere philosopher - he has now become
a... "spiritual philosopher!"
I really wish they would all get together and come with what he actually
was - in their minds. It is difficult following such a career when it
changes all the time.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 18:01:34 +0000
From: Kathy Harlan (harlanfamily earthlink.net)
Subject: RE: Preparing to attend Open House in Vancouver
Looking to the school to respond to questions is not necessarily what I
would recommend for your decision making at this point. Given that
youíre familiar with the dialogue that takes place on this list, read
articles about Waldorf on the PLANS site as well as pro-Waldorf sites on
the web and read Steinerís works for yourself on elib.com, you must be
very well informed as to what Waldorf education is about.
There is certainly disagreement and differing opinions about the value
of such an educational philosophy but thatís for you to decide. I would
recommend that you seriously ponder the following before enrolling your
child:
1. Who will be the childís teacher? Does that person have a teaching
credential from an accredited university? If they only have a Waldorf
teaching credential you really need to ask yourself if reading Steinerís
books for 2 years prepares an individual for taking your child through 8
years of formative education. Take a close look at what these teachers
read in order to obtain their certification. The majority of the books
arenít even related to Steinerís theories on education but rather
Steinerís spiritual philosophy.
2. Do you really believe Steiner was a gifted mystic that had powers of
clairvoyance from which he obtained his special knowledge about Waldorf
education? All things Waldorf are based on Steinerís divine
revelations. Does this make sense to you? Is this the type of
educational theory you want to base your childís education on? Just
because some of the things at a Waldorf school sound really cool and are
completely plausible with current educational theory doesnít change the
fact that Steinerís version is based on knowledge of spiritual
evolution. Is he the guy youíre going to put all your trust in? What
about all the stuff that doesnít sound plausible to you (correcting
left-handedness to remedy past life issues)? How will you discuss these
with your childís teacher as they arise? How will you even know about
them?
3. When I first visited our ex-Waldorf school I definitely picked up on
the Christian components. After the first year I even thought this
God-lite form of education was just the right amount of ëspiritualityí
that I wanted my child exposed to. In retrospect this was an extremely
naÔve understanding of religion. Since when can you put 2 people in a
room (let alone an entire school movementís faculty) and have them agree
on a ëliteí version of religious beliefs where everybody agrees. Itís
not possible. Anthroposophy is the religious philosophy all Waldorf
teachers agree on. Understand it. It drives everything in the school.
All the rituals, all the festivals, all the curriculum, everything.
4. Steinerís ideas are never updated. Period. If Steiner wrote about
it then it is gospel. The schools certainly add on their modern day
takes on things that werenít around when Steiner lived (like TV and
computer use) but they do not update ideas that he actually spoke about.
It is impossible to even know what these things are unless you read
Steinerís works for yourself. Some of them are so wacky you wouldnít
even think to ask the question in the first place.
5. Steinerís writings are racist. A lot of back and forth goes on
between Anthroposophists and critics about this topic but it doesnít
change what Steiner wrote. Read it yourself and draw your own
conclusions. Many parents that have read this stuff that are still at
our old Waldorf school will tell you that Steinerís writings are
obviously racist. They just donít think anyone believes in that stuff
anymore. If this sort of thing bothers you at all then please take it
seriously and donít align yourself with an organization that canít even
acknowledge and denounce the anti-semitism and racist views of their
dead guru.
6. If you do end up enrolling your daughter in the school because you
donít really believe itís a school to indoctrinate your child and your
family in the ways of Anthroposophy, keep your radar tuned. Trust your
instincts if you think your child is being harmed in any way. Listen to
your child when she tells you the teacher doesnít seem to care that the
kids are picking on her. Be alert to punishment that your child is
receiving and make sure you agree with it. When the teacher doesnít
answer your questions directly keep asking them until you understand the
answer. Be alert to feeling pressure to conform or guilt about your
lifestyle.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:15:17 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Re: more time
Percedol:
Thanks for your respect! It tells a lot about PLANS.
I will reply to previous and Peter's posts according to time availability
Walden:
While I am not a spokesperson for any group and your comments were not aimed
at me I can only say, Percedol, that I feel the frustration others feel when
it comes to unanswered questions here. I sincerely hope you take the time
to respond to previous posts - I, for one, would like to know your thoughts
on the subjects.
We have had many beginnings of informative dialogues at this list - only to
be snuffed out by people ignoring questions or simply leaving. I was
interested in what Joel Wendt called "The America Work," for example. We
got to a point where I saw blatant racism with regards to a particular view
of the destiny of Native Americans. I stated my shock and opinions AND had
some questions. Then - instead of an explanation - some of us were
blacklisted by Joel and then he leaves. That seems much more like a lack of
respect than someone expressing frustration - as Debra did (above). Perhaps
there was something I am missing that would help make sense of this
apparent Anthroposophical view of the world.
Trying to make sense of it all.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 16:32:24 -0400
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Re: Re: more time
walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca) wrote:
)
)
)Percedol:
)Thanks for your respect! It tells a lot about PLANS.
)
)I will reply to previous and Peter's posts according to time availability
)
)Walden:
)While I am not a spokesperson for any group and your comments were not aimed
)at me I can only say, Percedol, that I feel the frustration others feel when
)it comes to unanswered questions here. ÝI sincerely hope you take the time
)to respond to previous posts - I, for one, would like to know your thoughts
)on the subjects.
)
)We have had many beginnings of informative dialogues at this list - only to
)be snuffed out by people ignoring questions or simply leaving. ÝI was
)interested in what Joel Wendt called "The America Work," for example. ÝWe
)got to a point where I saw blatant racism with regards to a particular view
)of the destiny of Native Americans. ÝI stated my shock and opinions AND had
)some questions. ÝThen - instead of an explanation - some of us were
)blacklisted by Joel and then he leaves. ÝThat seems much more like a lack of
)respect than someone expressing frustration - as Debra did (above). ÝPerhaps
)there was something I am missing Ýthat would help make sense of this
)apparent Anthroposophical view of the world.
)
)Trying to make sense of it all.
)
)-Walden
Percedol:
Exactly to avoid that it takes time. There are a few important posts
left behind. The biggest problem is that most of my sources are not
in English and are too difficult to translate. Also, I take more time
to write in English in a decent manner. Last, but not least, I have
other things that cannot be delayed further.
The reason Joel left, *maybe*, was the the *tone* used by the critics
to reply. It's extremely disturbing. But one can get used to
everything...
Those posts will be answered because they are quite interesting.
Especially Sharon's about 'individuality'! And Peter's, of course!
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 22:40:04 +0000
From: (jking1 ora.fda.gov)
Subject: Waldorf Preschool
I recently enrolled my 18 month old twins in a new Waldorf preschool. I
really like some things about it, but other things raise red flags -
leading me to do web searches, and finally to the PLANS web site.
The Waldorf School in the area I just moved to has a phenomenally
beautiful campus, and the literature makes it sound like a dream. I
contacted the school, and collected some phone numbers which led me to
the new preschool. I really, really like the founders/ teachers - I
love that my boys will be getting organic foods, and have natural wood,
wool and cotton toys to play with. The songs and games are nice. The
teachers are gentle, loving, and many things they have told me make
perfect sense. My boys like them a lot.
One of the founders of the preschool has told me several times she feels
I need to dress my boys more warmly, to boost their immunity. During
the orientation meeting, she explained that the Waldorf philosophy is
that children need to be dressed in warm layers to help their organs
develop, and something about their astral bodies. She mentioned
Anthroposophy, and recommended a homeopathic doctor. She also
recommended Weleda as a supplement. And she explained her philosophy on
immunizations, and said it is her experience that immunized children are
more prone to learning disabilities.
I am fairly open-minded - but I am also a skeptic. After much research
on immunizations, I still believe in the value of immunizations and I
have given my boys every vaccine available. I will continue to do so.
It is my view that those who don't immunize their kids are relying on
the rest of us who do, for protection. I would definitely not give
them an unsupported dietary supplement like Weleda (mistletoe extract!).
I don't buy the layering concept. Her daughter (2 months older than my
boys) has been sick every bit as often as my boys. Hats do not prevent
colds & flu's.
I felt a bit uncomfortable when I dropped my boys off - the weather will
be in the 80's today, so I dressed them in shorts, undershirts, T-shirts
& light jackets in the morning. When I arrived at the preschool, her
daughter had on her usual hat that covers her ears, thick woolen
sweater, thick overalls, and warm sheepskin slippers. I felt the subtle
disapproval over my boy's lighter dress.
I have been looking at the positive things I like, and writing the rest
off as just eccentricities I can deal with. I tell myself no preschool
is perfect - at least I know my boys won't be planted in front of a
video, or fed Doritos's & Oreo cookies! There is a wonderful yard to
play in, and no junky plastic toys.
Anyhow - can any of you offer your thoughts? What about Waldorf at this
age?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 22:50:57 +0000
From: (jking1 ora.fda.gov)
Subject: Waldorf Preschool
Sorry if this is posted already!!! Having problems!!!
I recently enrolled my 18 month old twins in a new Waldorf preschool. I
really like some things about it, but other things raise red flags -
leading me to do web searches, and finally to the PLANS web site.
The Waldorf School in the area I just moved to has a phenomenally
beautiful campus, and the literature makes it sound like a dream. I
contacted the school, and collected some phone numbers which led me to
the new preschool. I really, really like the founders/ teachers - I
love that my boys will be getting organic foods, and have natural wood,
wool and cotton toys to play with. The songs and games are nice. The
teachers are gentle, loving, and many things they have told me make
perfect sense. My boys like them a lot.
One of the founders of the preschool has told me several times she feels
I need to dress my boys more warmly, to boost their immunity. During
the orientation meeting, she explained that the Waldorf philosophy is
that children need to be dressed in warm layers to help their organs
develop, and something about their astral bodies. She mentioned
Anthroposophy, and recommended a homeopathic doctor. She also
recommended Weleda as a supplement. And she explained her philosophy on
immunizations, and said it is her experience that immunized children are
more prone to learning disabilities.
I am fairly open-minded - but I am also a skeptic. After much research
on immunizations, I still believe in the value of immunizations and I
have given my boys every vaccine available. I will continue to do so.
It is my view that those who don't immunize their kids are relying on
the rest of us who do, for protection. I would definitely not give
them an unsupported dietary supplement like Weleda (mistletoe extract!).
I don't buy the layering concept. Her daughter (2 months older than my
boys) has been sick every bit as often as my boys. Hats do not prevent
colds & flu's.
I felt a bit uncomfortable when I dropped my boys off - the weather will
be in the 80's today, so I dressed them in shorts, undershirts, T-shirts
& light jackets in the morning. When I arrived at the preschool, her
daughter had on her usual hat that covers her ears, thick woolen
sweater, thick overalls, and warm sheepskin slippers. I felt the subtle
disapproval over my boy's lighter dress.
I have been looking at the positive things I like, and writing the rest
off as just eccentricities I can deal with. I tell myself no preschool
is perfect - at least I know my boys won't be planted in front of a
video, or fed Doritos's & Oreo cookies! There is a wonderful yard to
play in, and no junky plastic toys.
Anyhow - can any of you offer your thoughts? What about Waldorf at this
age?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 23:19:12 +0000
From: JK (jking1 ora.fda.gov)
Subject: TEST-IGNORE
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 23:23:14 +0000
From: JK (jking1 ora.fda.gov)
Subject: Waldorf Preschool
I recently enrolled my 18 month old twins in a new Waldorf preschool. I
really like some things about it, but other things raise red flags -
leading me to do web searches, and finally to the PLANS web site.
The Waldorf School in the area I just moved to has a phenomenally
beautiful campus, and the literature makes it sound like a dream. I
contacted the school, and collected some phone numbers which led me to
the new preschool. I really, really like the founders/ teachers - I
love that my boys will be getting organic foods, and have natural wood,
wool and cotton toys to play with. The songs and games are nice. The
teachers are gentle, loving, and many things they have told me make
perfect sense. My boys like them a lot.
One of the founders of the preschool has told me several times she feels
I need to dress my boys more warmly, to boost their immunity. During
the orientation meeting, she explained that the Waldorf philosophy is
that children need to be dressed in warm layers to help their organs
develop, and something about their astral bodies. She mentioned
Anthroposophy, and recommended a homeopathic doctor. She also
recommended Weleda as a supplement. And she explained her philosophy on
immunizations, and said it is her experience that immunized children are
more prone to learning disabilities.
I am fairly open-minded - but I am also a skeptic. After much research
on immunizations, I still believe in the value of immunizations and I
have given my boys every vaccine available. I will continue to do so.
It is my view that those who don't immunize their kids are relying on
the rest of us who do, for protection. I would definitely not give
them an unsupported dietary supplement like Weleda (mistletoe extract!).
I don't buy the layering concept. Her daughter (2 months older than my
boys) has been sick every bit as often as my boys. Hats do not prevent
colds & flu's.
I felt a bit uncomfortable when I dropped my boys off - the weather will
be in the 80's today, so I dressed them in shorts, undershirts, T-shirts
& light jackets in the morning. When I arrived at the preschool, her
daughter had on her usual hat that covers her ears, thick woolen
sweater, thick overalls, and warm sheepskin slippers. I felt the subtle
disapproval over my boy's lighter dress.
I have been looking at the positive things I like, and writing the rest
off as just eccentricities I can deal with. I tell myself no preschool
is perfect - at least I know my boys won't be planted in front of a
video, or fed Doritos's & Oreo cookies! There is a wonderful yard to
play in, and no junky plastic toys.
Anyhow - can any of you offer your thoughts? What about Waldorf at this
age?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 01:15:01 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Waldorf Preschool
jking1 ora.fda.gov wrote:
) I recently enrolled my 18 month old twins in a new Waldorf preschool. I
)
) really like some things about it, but other things raise red flags -
) leading me to do web searches, and finally to the PLANS web site.
)
) The Waldorf School in the area I just moved to has a phenomenally
) beautiful campus, and the literature makes it sound like a dream. I
) contacted the school, and collected some phone numbers which led me to
) the new preschool. I really, really like the founders/ teachers - I
) love that my boys will be getting organic foods, and have natural wood,
) wool and cotton toys to play with. The songs and games are nice. The
) teachers are gentle, loving, and many things they have told me make
) perfect sense. My boys like them a lot.
)
) One of the founders of the preschool has told me several times she feels
)
) I need to dress my boys more warmly, to boost their immunity. During
) the orientation meeting, she explained that the Waldorf philosophy is
) that children need to be dressed in warm layers to help their organs
) develop, and something about their astral bodies. She mentioned
) Anthroposophy, and recommended a homeopathic doctor. She also
) recommended Weleda as a supplement. And she explained her philosophy on
)
) immunizations, and said it is her experience that immunized children are
)
) more prone to learning disabilities.
)
) I am fairly open-minded - but I am also a skeptic. After much research
) on immunizations, I still believe in the value of immunizations and I
) have given my boys every vaccine available. I will continue to do so.
)
) It is my view that those who don't immunize their kids are relying on
) the rest of us who do, for protection. I would definitely not give
) them an unsupported dietary supplement like Weleda (mistletoe extract!).
)
) I don't buy the layering concept. Her daughter (2 months older than my
) boys) has been sick every bit as often as my boys. Hats do not prevent
) colds & flu's.
)
) I felt a bit uncomfortable when I dropped my boys off - the weather will
)
) be in the 80's today, so I dressed them in shorts, undershirts, T-shirts
)
) & light jackets in the morning. When I arrived at the preschool, her
) daughter had on her usual hat that covers her ears, thick woolen
) sweater, thick overalls, and warm sheepskin slippers. I felt the subtle
)
) disapproval over my boy's lighter dress.
)
) I have been looking at the positive things I like, and writing the rest
) off as just eccentricities I can deal with. I tell myself no preschool
) is perfect - at least I know my boys won't be planted in front of a
) video, or fed Doritos's & Oreo cookies! There is a wonderful yard to
) play in, and no junky plastic toys.
)
) Anyhow - can any of you offer your thoughts? What about Waldorf at this
)
) age?
)
Percedol:
It looks like your e-mail extension is that of the Office of Regulatory
Affairs of the FDA. Therefore, about vaccines you may want to check the
web page:
http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccines.htm
where there is a link to Center for Disease Control (National
Immunization Program):
http://www.cdc.gov/nip/
Here you can get all the info about vaccines:
http://www.metrokc.gov/health/immunization/child.htm
http://www.bchealthcenter.org/Dc/immfaq.htm
If you have questions about Waldorf check this:
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/waldorf/
http://www.fortnet.org/rsws/waldorf/faq.html
http://www.waldorfschoolofsandiego.com/
I don't understand what you say about mistletoe extract. Mistletoe is
used as far as I know to prepare Iscador, an Anthroposophical treatment
for cancer patients:
[Holtskog, R.; Sandvig, K.; Olsnes, S. (1988) Characterization of a
toxic lectin in Iscador(R), a mistletoe preparation with alleged
cancerostatic properties. Oncology 45(3):172-179]
In my opinion, dress your children as you feel, give them the food you
want, check the immunization pages and then decide by yourself.
Use always good sense.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 21:41:05 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: re: Waldorf preschool
New member JK tells us that she/he has enrolled her/his 18 month old twin
boys at a Waldorf school with a lovely campus.
I have never in my life heard of a Waldorf *school* that takes children that
young and has parents drop them off! I know that daycare centers do this,
but I was not aware that there were any Waldorf "daycare" centers. To my
knowledge, the only situation in which a Waldorf school would enroll a child
that young would be in a parent-tot format, during which a mom or dad would
bring a child for an hour or so of mutual activity under the guidance of a
teacher.
In any case, I would never trust such a young child to a Waldorf school
environment, for two simple reasons:
* Waldorf preschool and kindergarten classrooms abound in dangerous items
and opportunities. Parents love the idea of their children baking bread and
making soup to eat for snack, but not many realize that the teachers allow
small children to handle sharp knives and go near boiling pots, etc. Waldorf
classrooms also inevitably contain candles, which are lit and kept burning
during stories, etc. I have heard of at least one situation in which a
girl's dress caught on fire and she sustained a burn due to the many candles
about.
* Those who have worked at Waldorf schools report to us that teachers often
do not emphasize the safety precautions practiced by the rest of the
civilized world, because Waldorf teachers believe that the children's
"angels will protect them" or that if a child becomes injured, it is that
child's karma (destiny.) Several folks on this list have told harrowing
stories of small children being allowed to play almost unsupervised on
unfenced playgrounds, near the street, on very high and dangerous climbing
structures, etc. I recall one person who was on this list sometime ago
talking about how children at her old school were permitted to sit on the
school roof! A preschool teacher at another school would take 9 or 10
children on little field trips in her car (no carseats or seatbelts!) and
allow them to swim in a nearby river -- one adult to nine children!
Belief in karma is central to the Waldorf philosophy, which is based
completely on Anthroposophy. Anthroposophy is a religion that was created
from bits and pieces of other sects, such as Rosicrucianism and Theosophy,
etc. by Rudolf Steiner, an Austrian mystic who claimed to be clairvoyant.
Steiner had direct experience with only one child his entire life, yet
Waldorf teachers do their best to toe the line as rigidly as possible to the
child development model he set up based on his clairvoyant visions!
The emphasis on warmth and layered clothes is just one manifestation of
Anthroposophy, as is the mention of your children's "astral bodies." (The
fact that a teacher told you this, outright, seems to be a sign that you
have become involved with a very Anthroposophically rigid and doctrinaire
school!)
I am wondering, JK, how much you know about Anthroposophy. Are you aware
that Waldorf schools are the parochial schools of Anthroposophy, and that
almost everything about Waldorf schools -- from the color paint on the
classroom walls to what pictures hang there to what snacks the children eat
on a particular day to what stories they are told and how they are told them
-- is dictated by Anthroposophy? Aare you aware that at Waldorf schools,
children are categorized by their "temperments" (melancholic, choleric,
phlegmatic, and sanguine) and treated according to what Steiner wrote about
each? Do you understand that your sons' teachers believe that *they* and not
you, are the boys' true spiritual parent, and that you are merely the door
through which the child came into the world? Aare you aware that Waldorf
preschool and kindergarten teachers beleive that looking small children in
their eyes and answering their questions directly is detrimental to the
child, and may result in "hardening" of their organs? Do you understand that
Waldorf teachers, especially preschool and kindy teachers, believe that
gnomes and fairies really exist, and encourage the children in their care to
"see" them? Are you aware that the painting done by the children in Waldorf
schools is not art at all, but instead, an exercise intended to put small
children in contact with spirits?
Lisa
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 23:05:07 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Preschool
Hi there (you did not leave any name)
) I recently enrolled my 18 month old twins in a new Waldorf preschool. I
) really like some things about it, but other things raise red flags -
) leading me to do web searches, and finally to the PLANS web site.
I would strongly urge you to go through the site thoroughly as well as the
links at the site to some other Waldorf/Anthro sites. The Steiner elib site
is a great way to ready Steiner - Waldorf has everything to do with
Steiner - if you leave your children with Waldorf there is a very strong
chance you are leaving them with Steiner. There are usually Steiner
converts at the school and while there might be teachers who do not adhere
to the words of the master - you can be assured that those who pull the
strings are Steiner-ites. READ Steiner.
) The Waldorf School in the area I just moved to has a phenomenally
) beautiful campus, and the literature makes it sound like a dream.
Been there done that - dreams can turn to nightmares in time. Ask for
enrolment/retention numbers. Ask for a financial statement. Ask to SEE the
conflict resolution policy - make sure faculty are accountable. SEE the
policy - don't settle for anything less.
) contacted the school, and collected some phone numbers which led me to
) the new preschool. I really, really like the founders/ teachers - I
) love that my boys will be getting organic foods, and have natural wood,
) wool and cotton toys to play with. The songs and games are nice. The
) teachers are gentle, loving, and many things they have told me make
) perfect sense. My boys like them a lot.
This might be fine. Again, ask these folks about their connection with
Anthroposophy and Steiner. As them point blank how they feel about
Steiner's racist beliefs and about the mission of the movement. They should
be very open and willing to share this. Your children are in their care and
it is your right to know what goes on. Ask if they believe they are
incarnating your children's souls. By the way - many families eat organic
food and play with wood toys, etc. Waldorf does not have a monopoly on
this.
) One of the founders of the preschool has told me several times she feels
) I need to dress my boys more warmly, to boost their immunity. During
) the orientation meeting, she explained that the Waldorf philosophy is
) that children need to be dressed in warm layers to help their organs
) develop, and something about their astral bodies. She mentioned
) Anthroposophy, and recommended a homeopathic doctor. She also
) recommended Weleda as a supplement. And she explained her philosophy on
) immunizations, and said it is her experience that immunized children are
) more prone to learning disabilities.
Well - there you go. The beginning of the end. Warning - the dream gets a
little weird, huh?
) I am fairly open-minded - but I am also a skeptic. After much research
) on immunizations, I still believe in the value of immunizations and I
) have given my boys every vaccine available. I will continue to do so.
) It is my view that those who don't immunize their kids are relying on
) the rest of us who do, for protection. I would definitely not give
) them an unsupported dietary supplement like Weleda (mistletoe extract!).
) I don't buy the layering concept. Her daughter (2 months older than my
) boys) has been sick every bit as often as my boys. Hats do not prevent
) colds & flu's.
Sure they do - and the heart is not pump. It does not pump blood - haven't
you heard? Steiner told someone and they told someone else and they
told.... and here we are in 2002 listening to this stuff. (I will not go
into the vaccine debate again - suffice to say many parents do not vaccinate
their kids and this is not a Waldorf belief system) Onward...wanna find a
real gnome? Look in the forest - but ask before you go in. You know Weleda
is an Anthro company? Everything is connected in their world. You are an
open minded skeptic? This is fine, IMO. I often wrestle with folks
(verbally!) about terms like this. People tell me I am critical. I say,
"thanks." I don't go out of my way to *criticize* but I am glad to have a
*critical* mind. Open-minded skeptic - sounds good. Stay that way and you
might not last long in Waldorf. We stayed too long but that might have
simply been our *karma.* (g)
) I felt a bit uncomfortable when I dropped my boys off - the weather will
) be in the 80's today, so I dressed them in shorts, undershirts, T-shirts
) & light jackets in the morning. When I arrived at the preschool, her
) daughter had on her usual hat that covers her ears, thick woolen
) sweater, thick overalls, and warm sheepskin slippers. I felt the subtle
) disapproval over my boy's lighter dress.
You felt a bit uncomfortable. Trust how you feel. Subtle disapproval is
only the beginning....
) I have been looking at the positive things I like, and writing the rest
) off as just eccentricities I can deal with. I tell myself no preschool
) is perfect - at least I know my boys won't be planted in front of a
) video, or fed Doritos's & Oreo cookies! There is a wonderful yard to
) play in, and no junky plastic toys.
Eccentricities. Goes a little deeper, I'm afraid. Our kids were never
planted in front of a video or fed Doritos and Oreos before OR after
Waldorf. I know exactly what you mean, though. If Waldorf meant being with
a group of teachers and fellow families who were food and media conscious -
especially during the younger school years - and shared an appreciation of
the arts (real art) and nature and if a new social order (Steiner's vision)
meant looking at the world is a fresh new way so as to all live ethically
and ecologically *balanced* on planet earth instead of wildly chasing the
almighty dollar at the expense of human and natural resources around the
globe (sweat shops and deforestation/pollution) and if it meant learning to
live peacefully together with sincere respect for each other and the other
species we share the place with... then I would hop back on the Waldorf
Bandwagon toute suite.
Unfortunately, Waldorf has very little to do with any of that. It has to do
with a spiritual mission that they always seem to forget to mention to nice,
trusting folks like you and I.
) Anyhow - can any of you offer your thoughts? What about Waldorf at this
) age?
You have most likely just had an overdose of my thoughts. Waldorf for
toddlers - without mom and dad there? No Way. Never. End of thoughts.
Trust yourself.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 00:10:44 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Preschool
)Sorry if this is posted already!!! Having problems!!!
)
)I recently enrolled my 18 month old twins in a new Waldorf preschool. I
)really like some things about it, but other things raise red flags -
)leading me to do web searches, and finally to the PLANS web site.
)
)The Waldorf School in the area I just moved to has a phenomenally
)beautiful campus, and the literature makes it sound like a dream. I
)contacted the school, and collected some phone numbers which led me to
)the new preschool. I really, really like the founders/ teachers - I
)love that my boys will be getting organic foods, and have natural wood,
)wool and cotton toys to play with. The songs and games are nice. The
)teachers are gentle, loving, and many things they have told me make
)perfect sense. My boys like them a lot.
Debra:
Do your boys have good language skills? (I doubt it, given their age
and then put twin-talk on top, but who knows. . .)
)
)One of the founders of the preschool has told me several times she feels
)I need to dress my boys more warmly, to boost their immunity.
(Anthro quack alert)
) During
)the orientation meeting, she explained that the Waldorf philosophy is
)that children need to be dressed in warm layers to help their organs
)develop, and something about their astral bodies.
Has anyone else ever told you that your kids' organs are undeveloped?
This teacher is talking about Steiner's child development model. He
believed that children do not incarnate into their bodies until they
are 7 or so. Until then, kids are just little sacks of flour.
) She mentioned
)Anthroposophy, and recommended a homeopathic doctor. She also
)recommended Weleda as a supplement. And she explained her philosophy on
)immunizations, and said it is her experience that immunized children are
)more prone to learning disabilities.
For the record, our family lost a nephew because a homeopath
prescribed an opium-based remedy for Spinal Menengitus instead of
antibiotics. Yes, he was diagnosed by the ER staff at the hospital
but the antibiotic treatment was refused, as per homeopath's
instructions. Graham was brain dead by morning.
Several years later I read about the poor homeopath. In the
obituaries. Apparently Mistle Toe does not work for breast cancer.
Live by he sword, die by the sword. . . That she did, and her
obituary proves it. Too bad. My mom lived with cancer from age 50 to
age 81, using medical science. Pretty good odds. This woman died way
too young, and with a cancer more fightable than my mom had. Consider
the odds yourself. Listen to the best and consider wisely.
Out of time and sending this off unfinished. Hope this helps a bit.
Debra
--
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 724
-- Topica Digest --
scientology vs Anthro
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
I'm back, sort of (OT)
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 22:35:52 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: scientology vs Anthro
Walden:
On my travels again and searching for deeper meaning of why we were lead
down the Waldorf Path I find a question:
The similarities between various cults/sects/groups and those who might join
their ranks fascinates me. Does anyone have further comparisons with
Hubbard's and Steiner's programs? It seems that Scientology is generally
considered a "cult" while Anthroposophy does not seem as popular or as
stigmatized in cult-watch circles. When I look at Anthroposophy it seems
equally as *out there* as Hubbard's thing. In Waldorf schools the Steiner
photo in clear view of faculty, the Steiner verses/prayers etc. Sure, it
takes a little digging to figure it out but when your do... wow. Is it
simply that Anthros are slightly less than forthright with sharing what the
mission is all about while even newbie Scientologists *grok* the sci-fi
nature of their trip? This could be old stuff for some of you. Any
insight is welcome. For example... From Tarjei Straume, december 1998:
http://home.no.net/tastraum/hubbardsteiner.html
(snip)
For this reason, it may be interesting to take a closer look at some of
Steiner's teachings in order to compare them to Hubbard's version of
Anthroposophical ideas. But when we are doing this, it is equally important
to analyze the differences, especially where they stand in diametric
opposition. And the principles of RS and LRH clash most violently in the
ethics, or moral, department. Beria, Crowley, and some other sources were
perhaps relatively close to Hubbard's code of ethics. Steiner, however,
represents an entirely different school of thought when it comes to morals.
Many skeptical readers, ultra-rationalists, atheists, agnostics, orthodox
devotees of traditional religions etc., may conclude that L. Ron Hubbard and
Rudolf Steiner were both spaced out in their heads and were equally off the
wall with their respective cosmologies. I accept and respect reactions of
this kind, and this sentiment is modified only by my responsibility to
prevent misconceptions about Dr. Steiner's moral character, ideals and
motives.
Steiner's spiritual-scientific genius is of secondary importance. The most
impressive aspect of this man is his exalted moral standard and his
unselfish, self-sacrificing way of life, plus his ability to communicate
this high code of ethics through inference and personal example without ever
coming across as moralistic. And on this particular point there must be no
room for misunderstanding or untruth. (snip)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 00:45:40 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: I'm back, sort of (OT)
Dear Correspondents,
I'm back, sort of. Had a wonderful vacation with my youngest son. We
drove across South Dakota, Wyoming. Stopped at the Missouri River,
the Mitchell Corn Palace, Wall Drug Store, Mt. Rushmore, Rushmore
Cave, Devil's Tower (in a thunderstorm), then 2-1/2 days hiking in
Yellowstone, not caring that it was snowing. Saw grizzlies!
A motel phone system blew out my laptop's modem the second day so I
said what the hell, I'm on vacation. My mailbox overflowed on the 8th.
Of course my desk is piled with ten days of mail.
Heard the Twin Hills board approved the Waldorf charter on the same
site as the failed Willow Wood Waldorf school. Debra was on the
radio, Pat Thurston's talk show from Santa Rosa.
I'll be back on topic in a few days.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 730
-- Topica Digest --
Re: scientology vs Anthro
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: scientology vs Anthro
By Tjgarr859 aol.com
RE: Carlos Castaneda was a not fraud
By willow.firesong creative-interweb.com
Things to know when considering enrolling a child in Waldorf -
was RE: Prepari
By willow.firesong creative-interweb.com
Re: scientology vs Anthro
By mysplum earthlink.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 09:50:58 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: scientology vs Anthro
on 5/12/02 10:35 PM, walden at awaldenpond shaw.ca wrote:
) Walden:
) On my travels again and searching for deeper meaning of why we were lead
) down the Waldorf Path I find a question:
)
) The similarities between various cults/sects/groups and those who might join
) their ranks fascinates me.
Sharon: People who study cults say that mostly young, idealistic people
join, although the Osho movement was an exception with mostly women in their
30s - 40s joining. Usually, people who join cults have had past experience
in another cult, or were raised in some kind of religious movement. Mainly
women join, many because they might gain opportunities that mainstream
society doesn't offer, such as religious leadership positions. People who
join are usually religiously ambiguous, and statistics show that people from
Jewish backgrounds are more likely to end up in a cult than Protestants.
Waldorf is fairly unique in that it makes a great effort to pretend that it
is not religion-based. Most other cults let you know that they are religious
movements. Waldorf unabashedly claims to be nonsectarian and non-religious
and people like me get suckered because never in our wildest dreams do we
think a school for children, an educational facility would lie so blatantly.
We are not used to lies so big. Here is an example of typical Waldorf lies
and deliberate confusion-mongering given to participants of a vision
committee at Twin Ridges Alternative Charter School, a school that PLANS is
suing for First Amendment violations:
"The term Anthroposophy is also used in a general way to refer to the
underlying philosophy upon which all Rudolf Steiner's teachings are based -
that man as a spiritual being is capable by his own efforts of evolving into
higher and higher states of consciousness.
How does this relate to Waldorf Education? First of all, it must be clearly
stated that Anthroposophy is founded on the premise that each human being
must arrive at the truth in full freedom through his own personal efforts.
Anthroposophy is not a set of rules and beliefs, nor is it a religion. We do
not teach Anthroposophy at Waldorf Schools, nor do we give any religious
instruction.
The Waldorf Curriculum and methodology can be viewed as the child of
Anthroposophy. Insights lleadiong to the formulation of Waldorf Education
came to Rudolf Steiner as a result of his own inner work. Without
Anthroposophy, we would not have Waldorf Education. The education remains
alive tthrough the inner work of the teacher. Anthroposophy provides one of
the guide posts for this work, which includes meditation and study. One of
the things we do is to examine Steiner's work in depth, as well as the work
of others. Steiner's work requires a rigorous effort to be understood and
digested, and this study is a form of inner work which brings us together as
a group.
Anthroposophy leads us to the realization that each child is a spiritual
being in the process of unfolding in a unique way. We can only perceive a
small part of what the child is. It is our job to strive to create a healthy
environment for this unfolding to take place, so that the child's innate
capacities may some day bear fruit".
Walden: Does anyone have further comparisons with
) Hubbard's and Steiner's programs?
Sharon: Supposedly, Hubbard read Steiner. He worked in the mystery
tradition, and incorporated "scientific" jargon to make his system appear
science based. Hubbard attributed various bodies to people such as the
"theta-being" which he claimed was as old as the universe. The theta-being
shares a physical body with other bodies called theta-bodies that inhabit
the theta-being. Scientology provides auditing services which help eliminate
the theta-bodies so that the participant reaches a new state of clear, known
as theta-clear. The theta-clear individual can dismiss pain and illness from
others at will. In 1953, Hubbard was strapped for cash and turned the
auditing centers into churches, a good move because religious institutions
in the US have tax exempt status. Hubbard described scientology as "knowing
how to know". The main difference that I see between Anthro and Scientolgy
is that Scientology is more ethical because they claim to be a religion,
they call themselves a church, whereas Anthroposophy claims the opposite.
The scientologists have launched a school for children and I would love to
compare both schools.
Walden: It seems that Scientology is generally
) considered a "cult" while Anthroposophy does not seem as popular or as
) stigmatized in cult-watch circles.
Sharon: Anthroposophy is unknown here in America. Scientology is a
recognizable movement, most people here have heard about it.
Walden: When I look at Anthroposophy it seems
) equally as *out there* as Hubbard's thing.
Sharon: Of course it is just as out there.
Cults usually view other NRMs as cults, and when one cult survives and
finally makes it into mainstream acceptability by acquiring religion status,
it usually battles other movements that society regards as fringe / cults.
It's a cycle that has been with us forever. Tarjei once had an anti
Scientolgy speel on his site, which made me howl with laughter. On the rare
occasion, cults actually come up with ideas that are useful and end up being
adopted by many in the greater society.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 06:59:30 EDT
From: Tjgarr859 aol.com
Subject: Re: scientology vs Anthro
Is forming a "way out" religion moral? Can being potentially dangerous make
it any less so? Many feel that present members have repackaged RS to appeal
to environmentally aware who are looking for a real alternative, however the
pattern of silence as to these way out teachings seems to many the danger,
not the words themselves.
Thanks
Tom
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 12:55:54 +0930
From: Willow Firesong (Willow.Firesong creative-interweb.com)
Subject: RE: Carlos Castaneda was a not fraud
At 29-04-02 12:15 PM Monday, you wrote:
)Peter Zegers (peter_zegers runbox.no) wrote:
) )It's funny how Percedol keeps referiing to Castaneda as an authority. It
) has been established already a long time ago that he was a fraud. It's a
) long story and those who are interested can read something about it at:
) http://www.discovery.org/lewis/carlos.html. I don't think it will make
) any difference for Percedol, but for the rest it just might be of
) interest that the man was a spiritual huckster.
)
)Percedol:
)People may have whatever opinion they have and I respect that. But no
)matter haw much he deviated and eventually ended apparently quite bad or
)even worse, he was not a fraud. Eventually I think he may have tried to
)'fraud' people in some way.
)
)In any case, what he wrote in Journey to Ixtlan is correct and in Tales of
)Power is at worst first hand experiencial.
)
)I doubt anyone could say that the content of Journey to Ixtlan is
)incorrect. It's perfect.
Please define what you mean by "incorrect", and "perfect". The table of
contents fairly closely reflects the material covered in the book - in that
sense, the "content" is "correct". If you have a copy without
typographical errors, I suppose that it could be said to be "perfect" in
that sense.
Perhaps it could be considered a "perfect" example of a fictional account
of a shamanic initiation.
Indeed, if one reads the full series of books, I can definitely attest that
it provides an interesting insight into the verbal sleight-of-hand that
characterizes many so-called initiatory traditions, in which an individual
is presented with a great number of arbitrary rules justified by flights of
fancy (which may or may not be bolstered by carefully guided experiences
with "altered states of reality", whether attained through plant alkaloids,
ecstatic dance, transcendental meditation, guided imagery, or other means,
including the classic brainwashing techniques of personal attack combined
with offers of unconditional forgiveness and acceptance), then after
accepting them is presented with another level of explanation which is at
near-complete odds with the first explanation. This is itself succeeded in
turn by yet another explanation, so that the "initiate" is continuously
given the impression that they have had the Great Mysteries of the Universe
Revealed to them (sounds like a sideshow attraction), but kept subordinate
to the "masters", who always appear to know something more. Meanwhile, the
first set of changes in perception of reality have tricked the initiate
into believing that his own perception of reality is less trustworthy than
the "master". Each time the initiate catches on to the internal
inconsistencies of the perspective he is being asked to accept, the
"master" says some version of "you have grown wise, my son, and yet you
know nothing - you are ready to learn the true measure of your ignorance,
and begin the next stage of your learning journey", and offers a new
explanation, which conveniently explains away all of the inconsistencies
that the "initiate" has spotted within the last artificially constructed
interpretation of reality; when its inconsistencies are detected in turn,
the .
I've read Journey to Ixtlan. I can say that, *read in the right frame of
mind*, it makes for a very inspiring, thought-provoking read (as do many
good novels, and other works of fiction), full of spiritual insight - but
to take it literally, and believe that it is a factual account of a
graduate student's anthropological research and/or shamanic initiation, is
both unwarranted and potentially dangerous.
The facts of Casteneda's life are known and demonstrable. The plants that
Casteneda describes himself as having ingested are indeed psychoactive -
but they are also extremely poisonous, including the Natural with which
Casteneda is supposed to have literally *flown*, if one is to take the
books as literal accounts of factual experiences. An appalling number of
people have poisoned themselves over the years in their attempts to pursue
in real life Casteneda's fictional accounts as a method of shamanic
self-initiation; all that they have successfully demonstrated is that
identification of wild mushrooms is a matter for experts, and that Natural
has earned its place on the poisonous plant lists compiled by those
individuals who have actual knowledge of the plants of the region, and
their properties.
If your contention is that Castaneda's novels are allegorical, and
metaphorical, and are valuable because they contain an inner spiritual
wisdom - say so, and don't cite them as a source for factual
information. There is no shame in having respect for spiritually
inspirational works of fiction - there is a tradition of that in many of
the world's great religions; I seem to recall a biblical quote about
Christ, saying that "he spake to them in parables, and save in parables, he
spake not to them."
The only shame lies in confusing fact with fiction, and citing the one as
the other, and even that is only the minor flaw of ignorance. Ignorance is
highly curable, as long as it is not defended.
)Peter Zegers (peter_zegers runbox.no) wrote:
)The content of Castaneda's works is pure fiction, of no scientific value
)whatsoever. Moreover it is badly written and boring to read. So it is also
)bad fiction. It figures that Percedol takes up the defence of this fraud
)(so far he has been a specialist in this genre on the list).
I think that it is important that we not fall into the tempting pitfall to
which anthroposophical education appears to have succumbed, that of trying
to define "beauty", and other subjective emotional responses, for
others. Steiner may believe that it is good for the educator, or some
other party, to define "beauty" for the student. I think that there are
some guidelines that can be established, such as the perception of youth,
health, and symmetry as beautiful, but beyond that, what is beautiful, just
as what is boring to read, is a very subjective issue, and should not be
dictated.
Some people love Larry Niven, others consider him dry as dust; the same
can be said for writers from JRR Tolkein to Chaucer to Shakespeare. As for
the quality of the writing, a lot depends on which elements are being
valued - one person might value a work for its emotionally evocative
imagery, while another dismisses it for splitting infinitives.
I think that with Casteneda it quite suffices to point out that his works
were neither more nor less than fiction. Whether good fiction or bad is a
matter for quite another forum - perhaps a matter for literary critics, but
not a matter of objective fact, which is the strong point of this list. I,
for one, welcome the Steiner-related information Percedol has posted here,
it has been quite educational; however, I cannot see where a discussion of
Casteneda has any relevance here, a point which the fictional nature of his
work should make clear.
Unless, perhaps, you are pointing out that the creation of a
self-consistent system of spiritual initiation does not, in and of itself,
prove that any given piece of writing (of whatever quality, whether by
Casteneda or Steiner) is not a work of fiction?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 17:00:54 +0930
From: Willow Firesong (Willow.Firesong creative-interweb.com)
Subject: Things to know when considering enrolling a child in Waldorf -
was RE: Preparing to attend Open House in Vancouver
At 07-05-02 06:01 PM Tuesday, you wrote:
)There is certainly disagreement and differing opinions about the value
)of such an educational philosophy but thatís for you to decide. I would
)recommend that you seriously ponder the following before enrolling your
)child:
This is the letter I wish I had seen before I enrolled my child, as it does
such an excellent job of clarifying the key issues for a parent considering
a Waldorf/Steiner school for their child.
However, even without such a succinct summation to work from, point number
six is the most essential, and it was the key for us. It is, in fact, such
an important point, regardless of the Waldorf school context, that I'd like
to quote it again, in its entirety:
)6. If you do end up enrolling your daughter in the school because you
)donít really believe itís a school to indoctrinate your child and your
)family in the ways of Anthroposophy, keep your radar tuned. Trust your
)instincts if you think your child is being harmed in any way. Listen to
)your child when she tells you the teacher doesnít seem to care that the
)kids are picking on her. Be alert to punishment that your child is
)receiving and make sure you agree with it. When the teacher doesnít
)answer your questions directly keep asking them until you understand the
)answer. Be alert to feeling pressure to conform or guilt about your
)lifestyle.
No matter WHERE your child goes to school, it's important to trust them,
and trust yourself, with due care to verify those facts which can be
checked. Blind faith generally isn't a good idea, no matter whom you are
trusting - but if you're going to have blind faith in anyone, on those
issues which cannot be independently verified, let it be in your child, and
make sure that they know that they're going to have to earn and live up to
that standard of trust.
The Boy Who Cried Wolf is regular story-telling fare in our home, and our
daughter has done a good job of living up to that trust - she likes to tell
jokes and "mess with us", but when it comes down to it, she wants to make
sure that we know which things are real and which aren't. I'm very glad we
have that trust relationship, because it was listening to her that got me
to check out what was going on in her school for myself, and intervene,
providing independent verification of the problems she had described, as
well as the ones I had predicted based on the teachers' description of her
behaviour. We took her out of the school, after that - unfortunately, not
before her health was damaged, but before it was damaged to an extent that
would make it more difficult for our daughter to recover, given a safe
environment.
We made what we thought was an informed choice, based on what we had read
here, and the answers the local school gave us when we asked them about the
issues discussed here. I do not feel at this point that the answers we
were given were an accurate reflection of the school's policies, and I
think that regardless of the availability, or lack thereof, of other
options, we should not have enrolled our daughter there in the first
place. Had we trusted our initial reaction to the conflict we felt with
some of the school policies, as we learned of them, we would have ceased
the enrollment process then and there, regardless of how far into it we had
gotten. Instead, we trusted what we had been told in answer to the
questions we had asked.
I think in the end we were misled by what we were told, but also by what it
did not occur to us to ask. We assumed, for instance, that in any school
that was allowed to enroll children, there would be safety policies which
would preclude the kind of problems our daughter encountered; while some
such policies appear in the school's printed material, they are useless if
they remain unenforced due to differences of interpretation that are based
on the school's underlying philosophies, which are those of Rudolf Steiner.
It is unlikely that a parent will ask for, or receive, a clear definition
of each and every term used in the school's policies, yet it is important
to remember that even terms with very different common usage and
agreed-upon meanings are used exclusively according to the Steiner-dictated
philosophical views which underlie the school (a point affirmed by our
local school, even as they denied that Anthroposophy or any
anthroposophical material was taught in the school).
I live in Australia, where Waldorf schools are called "Steiner Schools",
though they are officially part of the same international educational
body. Someone recently posted the URL for a program which aired on
Australia's ABC-TV religious affairs program, Compass, covering Steiner's
teachings and primarily his schools, here in Australia. I think any parent
considering enrolling their child in a Steiner/Waldorf school would be well
advised to read the transcript of that program.
http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s542330.htm
I personally found it interesting that although Anthroposophy is not
officially taught in the schools, every student interviewed had "developed
an active interest", and gone to "seek it out".
Some quotes from the program (included under fair use provisions of the
relevant copyright acts, for study purposes, and to encourage further
reading of the full body of the text quoted):
(begin quoted material)
Although Rudolph Steinerís ideas are present in all that the School does
right down to the colours of the classrooms, Anthroposophy is not taught.
Andrew Hill
Class Teacher
It's something that's in a sense never mentioned really, certainly in the
younger grades, because we want it to work in a practical sense in the
children's lives. But we believe it does indicate that thoughts you have,
your deepest strivings, your big picture of life, all of these things work
right down into the physical atmosphere around people.
NARR:
On Friday afternoons Andrew and fellow teacher John Blackwood hold a small
discussion group with ex students in Johnís home which is close to the school.
Andrew Hill
Class Teacher
A number of students these days are looking for the bigger picture, they're
looking for I guess something deeper, something less than just the
superficial materialistic view of life that's offered through the
mainstream. And they want to go a bit into that.
Jenny
Arts student
Nobody ever talks about Steiner's philosophy in the school. You actually
have to find out about it from your own vocation. You have to go seek it
out, and I think that's better, because you develop an active interest for
it. But itís never put on you in any way.
(end quoted material)
---
They say it is never put on the children in any way - yet every quote from
a teacher or staff member includes a reference to the soul, the spirit, or
Steiner's teaching's on a given subject. I think that speaks for itself,
regarding the presence of this material in the schools.
With regard to some of the arguments put forth on this mailing list, I
think the following quotes are highly relevant:
(begin quoted material)
Martin Porteous
Day care service manager
Anthroposophy doesn't see itself as an alternative, it sees itself as
trying to develop everything that's there.
(end quoted material)
---
(begin quoted material)
NARR:
Steiner maintained that with correct practice we could develop ìspiritual
organs. This would enable us to perceive the spiritual world as clearly and
objectively as conventional science sees the material world. In a lecture
given in 1914 he said:
ìSpiritual Science enters the spiritual world in a way that makes it
possible to distinguish concrete individual beings and events there.
Through such spiritual research, we confront the spiritual world in the
same way that we human beings in the physical world research the mineral,
plant and animal kingdoms.î
To Anthroposophist and science teacher John Blackwood, Steinerís spiritual
observations are scientific and not just a matter of belief.
John Blackwood
Science teacher
For me I don't believe it is merely a belief system, because I believe that
he was able to perceive, just not idealize, but to perceive what he was
talking about. So for me I believe that he had what's called say, spiritual
and soul sense organs which were able to actually access what lies behind
the very nature of what is around us now.
Most traditions have a whole catalogue of beings behind the nature if you
will and the divine world for that matter, and my personal feeling is that
he was able to actually know. So in a sense what he is saying is
scientific, because it is actual observation.
NARR:
It is this certainty about what is beyond the reach of conventional science
that has fueled Steinerís critics dubbing his assertions a ìpseudo- scienceî.
David Millikan
Theologian & cult authority
It is a series of philosophical speculations, which must be judged by their
internal consistency, by their capacity to explain the nature of reality
beyond themselves, and those other fundamental criterions of philosophy. So
it is not a science.
(end quoted material)
---
So it's not a science - but it's viewed as science by the school's science
teachers. Well, now that's very interesting.
Did you know that Steiner is also the father of "biodynamics"? Like me,
you may have equated biodynamics with a sort of combination of organic
agricultural methods with the principles of permaculture, to create a
result in which chemical-free produce is grown on a property which tries to
be self-sufficient, without bringing new material onto the land, instead
making use of composting and related techniques to return organic material
to the soil in an ongoing cycle of fertility renewal. Apparently, this
belief is wrong.
From the Compass transcript:
(begin quoted material)
NARR:
Alex Steenblock believes the essential difference stems from the
Anthroposophical understanding of a spiritual reality that lies within the
material world.
Alex Steenblock
Engineer & biodynamic farmer
Organic farming is very earth bound. But one doesn't include the cosmical
forces as strong and one sees often the spiritual still separate from the
physical; but in biodynamic farming one tries to really amalgamate
spiritual and physical, so one doesn't see them separate.
NARR:
Alex is an engineer who trained in biodynamic farming in Germany. He sees
his work as more than just growing wholesome chemical free produce.
Alex Steenblock
Engineer & biodynamic farmer
It means not staying arrogant and trying to condemn science, but also, with
my scientific background not to condemn the religious attitudes. It means
one really lifts them together. It means that biodynamic farmers could see
almost like two professional lines in oneself.
I feel it strongly myself that I am actually a down to earth farmer, but
the same I could see myself also like a priest on the land fulfilling kind
of this, kind of a religious service for the land.
(end quoted material)
---
Steiner, and Anthroposophy, look more and more religious, the further you read:
(begin quoted material)
NARR:
Children at Steiner Schools are exposed to religious culture from a variety
of sources including the main world religions and ancient pagan mythology.
Every Easter at Glenaeon a version of the old Christian service of shadows
or Tenebrae is held. It recalls the last darkening hours of Jesusí earthly
life and his crucifixion.
Steiner believed that the Christ essence had always existed in the
spiritual realm and was worshipped in pre-Christian times under different
names.
Andrew Hill
Class Teacher
We see Christianity as being in a sense a culmination of fulfillment of all
of these earlier traditions. And in this sense the school has a Christian
emphasis, but in the most - I guess you could say - the most universal
sense. So we certainly do not preach a dogmatic Christianity.
NARR:
An Anthroposophical view of Christianity embraces the Hindu beliefs of
karma and re-incarnation.
Steiner also saw a world inhabited by spiritual beings such as Archangels
who presided over different epochs of human history. Alongside them are
opposing demonic forces, necessary for human evolution, but capable of
great evil.
(end quoted material)
---
(begin quoted material)
David Millikan
Theologian & cult authority
I think it's a bit coy of followers of Steiner to say that Anthroposophy is
not religious. They may not practice a form of religious ritual that
emerges of Anthroposophy, but Anthroposophy itself is fundamentally
religious because it talks about a religious cosmos.
This is a religion with spiritual forces, hierarchies of angels, forces for
evil, a cosmic battle between the forces of good and evil and so on. And
its focus in terms of us human beings - if you like ñ the purpose of
Anthroposophy is to resensitize people and give people the equipment to
elevate themselves out of the limitations of the material world, and see
the spiritual and the influence of the spiritual on this life. Now that is
a fundamentally religious vision, really.
(end quoted material)
---
It's tempting to quote more and more of this transcript, because it is so
relevant to this discussion - but I think I will simply close with the
following quote:
(begin quoted material)
NARR:
Like Bob Ellis, most of us know little about Anthroposophy. So, in the end,
Steinerís legacy here is not the subject of much philosophical or even
theological discussion. What is known and ultimately judged though, are
what many see as impressive practical work in Medicine, Agriculture and
Education.
David Millikan
Theologian & cult authority
I think what's happened in Australia is that this dimension, if you like
this practical dimension of Steinerism, has flourished. And the
philosophical speculation I think Australia's turned away from is a bit
bizarre and a bit unusual, and I think they get pushed off to the side.
Andrew Hill
Class Teacher
We see Steiner as someone who was working out of left field at the
beginning of a century that had to go through a particular kind of science ...
(end quoted material)
Steiner's "philosophical speculation" was indeed "out of left field",
"fundamentally religious", and "a bit bizarre", but are seen as
"scientific" by the *science* teachers at the schools, and "Rudolph
Steinerís ideas are present in all that the School does right down to the
colours of the classroom".
This is Waldorf Education.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 07:03:17 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: scientology vs Anthro
on 5/13/02 3:59 AM, TJGarrity at Tjgarr859 aol.com wrote:
) Is forming a "way out" religion moral? Can being potentially dangerous make
) it any less so? Many feel that present members have repackaged RS to appeal
) to environmentally aware who are looking for a real alternative, however the
) pattern of silence as to these way out teachings seems to many the danger,
) not the words themselves.
) Thanks
Sharon: It's a good argument and one I'd like to hear you argue! My take is
that some people find peace, freedom and happiness in way out religions, and
if you look at all religions they are all pretty "way out", (think of
Mormonism, Pentecostalism, Scientology, Transcendental Meditation, Hinduism,
Santeria, Christianity, Seventh Day Adventists, Nation of Islam, etc.) In a
democracy, you aren't supposed to discriminate - religious freedom and
pluralism is the name of the game. In America the pursuit of happiness is a
basic human right which applies to all of us, which is why I demand that
Anthroposophists be up front. Anthroposophic silence and their fraudulent
denials that Anthro is not a religion are what I consider immoral,
unethical, non-democratic. (Also Steiner's racism that is perpetually denied
by followers). The fact that the schools thumb their noses at the First
Amendment and expand with public monies is wrong, this is a violation that
needs to be checked as the government may not advance any religion, it must
remain neutral. "The law knows no heresy, and is committed to the support of
no dogma, the establishment of no sect" (US Supreme Court 1871). There is
great wisdom in the Constitution.
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 731
-- Topica Digest --
Re:Beauty /was Carlos Castaneda was a not fraud
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: scientology vs Anthro
By Tjgarr859 aol.com
Re:Beauty /was Carlos Castaneda was a not fraud
By snell gv.net
Re: Things to know when considering enrolling a child in
Waldorf - was RE:
Prep
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: scientology vs Anthro
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re:Beauty /was Carlos Castaneda was a not fraud
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: scientology vs Anthro
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE:Waldorf Aesthetics - was Beauty /was Carlos Castaneda was a no
t fraud
By jking1 ora.fda.gov
Re: Things to know when considering enrolling a child in Waldorf
- was RE: Prep
By mysplum earthlink.net
re: things to know before enrolling ...
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Waldorf Aesthetics - was Beauty /was Carlos Castaneda was
a no t fraud
By Tjgarr859 aol.com
Esoteric colours on the walls of the class room
By marja.viita luukku.com
Colored sheer scarfs
By marja.viita luukku.com
Re: Esoteric colours on the walls of the class room
By momof2gals mindspring.com
re: things to know before enrolling ...
By kateabooth yahoo.com.au
RE: Carlos Castaneda was a not fraud
By willow.firesong creative-interweb.com
RE:Percedol - Waldorf Preschool
By dan dandugan.com
Re: membership numbers?
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 09:16:35 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re:Beauty /was Carlos Castaneda was a not fraud
on 5/13/02 8:25 PM, Willow Firesong at willow.firesong creative-interweb.com
wrote:
)
) I think that it is important that we not fall into the tempting pitfall to
) which anthroposophical education appears to have succumbed, that of trying
) to define "beauty", and other subjective emotional responses, for
) others. Steiner may believe that it is good for the educator, or some
) other party, to define "beauty" for the student. I think that there are
) some guidelines that can be established, such as the perception of youth,
) health, and symmetry as beautiful, but beyond that, what is beautiful, just
) as what is boring to read, is a very subjective issue, and should not be
) dictated.
Sharon: Hear hear! BTW You won't ever catch me saying that the Waldorf
aesthetic is beautiful, Steiner imposed style makes me want to heave. I
think it is one of the most oppressive things about the schools. I
especially hated the way the school tried to wipe out my daughter's own
artistic expression. At home she was drawing incredible stuff, (I adore
child art) but at school she was reproducing Steiner sanctioned style. When
we left Waldorf, we came home with a pile of her books and she sat at the
kitchen table and drew one of her originals in one of the books, it stands
out. This particular drawing is light years a head and beyond anything else
drawn in her books. She was finally making her *own* mark, free from the
Waldorf aesthetic and color police.
Now, when I see pictures of faceless gnomes, faceless angels or faceless
Michaels slaying dragons with angels looking on, or Waldorf classrooms with
scarves draped around and Waldorf styled wooden toys, faceless waldorf
sanctioned dolls, nature alters, colors with esoteric meaning and lazured
walls I get the heebie jeebies.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 09:23:29 EDT
From: Tjgarr859 aol.com
Subject: Re: scientology vs Anthro
--part1_19e.23e369c.2a1269d1_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 5/14/02 6:53:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mysplum earthlink.net writes:
) ) Is forming a "way out" religion moral? Can being potentially dangerous make
) ) it any less so? Many feel that present members have repackaged RS to
) appeal
) ) to environmentally aware who are looking for a real alternative, however
) the
) ) pattern of silence as to these way out teachings seems to many the danger,
) ) not the words themselves.
) ) Thanks
)
) Sharon: It's a good argument and one I'd like to hear you argue! My take is
) that some people find peace, freedom and happiness in way out religions, and
) if you look at all religions they are all pretty "way out", (think of
) Mormonism, Pentecostalism, Scientology, Transcendental Meditation, Hinduism,
) Santeria, Christianity, Seventh Day Adventists, Nation of Islam, etc.) In a
) democracy, you aren't supposed to discriminate - religious freedom and
) pluralism is the name of the game. In America the pursuit of happiness is a
) basic human right which applies to all of us, which is why I demand that
) Anthroposophists be up front. Anthroposophic silence and their fraudulent
) denials that Anthro is not a religion are what I consider immoral,
) unethical, non-democratic. (Also Steiner's racism that is perpetually denied
) by followers). The fact that the schools thumb their noses at the First
) Amendment and expand with public monies is wrong, this is a violation that
) needs to be checked as the government may not advance any religion, it must
) remain neutral. "The law knows no heresy, and is committed to the support of
) no dogma, the establishment of no sect" (US Supreme Court 1871). There is
) great wisdom in the Constitution.
)
)
You could not be more correct. There are many good intentioned people who
believe in things I will probably never understand but make them feel good
about themselves and comfortable in the world we all live in.
If you go to the various Waldorf "college" Web Sites, you can see that
financial aid and grants are not available for this type of study outside of
Waldorf's own internal sources - Why?
None of the colleges I have written to have pretended to be "accredited" -
Why?
Again, it appears that these teachings are religious based but not in a
conventional outward way such as Catholic Schools or other Christian or
Jewish centers for learning. Is pulling a little from the
Hindu-Buddist-Christian beliefs no less religious based than the pure
religions it is borrowed from? Can this scatter shot approach to universal
spirituality be anything less than it sounds?
There is nothing wrong with this belief system or the people who are drawn to
its promise of "supersensability", however you cannot seperate RS-Anthro-and
Waldorf and expect informed people not to take notice and ask the questions
we have been.
I do not know what the problem is in admitting that this is a religious like
program to educate children. With all we have read and experienced one may
draw a dark conclusion that this belief system appears to be driven to
quietly indoctronate the uninformed over the long run which is unethical at
best.
Thanks
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 07:33:26 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re:Beauty /was Carlos Castaneda was a not fraud
)on 5/13/02 8:25 PM, Willow Firesong at willow.firesong creative-interweb.com
)wrote:
)
))
)) I think that it is important that we not fall into the tempting pitfall to
)) which anthroposophical education appears to have succumbed, that of trying
)) to define "beauty", and other subjective emotional responses, for
)) others. Steiner may believe that it is good for the educator, or some
)) other party, to define "beauty" for the student. I think that there are
)) some guidelines that can be established, such as the perception of youth,
)) health, and symmetry as beautiful, but beyond that, what is beautiful, just
)) as what is boring to read, is a very subjective issue, and should not be
)) dictated.
)
)Sharon: Hear hear! BTW You won't ever catch me saying that the Waldorf
)aesthetic is beautiful, Steiner imposed style makes me want to heave. I
)think it is one of the most oppressive things about the schools. I
)especially hated the way the school tried to wipe out my daughter's own
)artistic expression. At home she was drawing incredible stuff, (I adore
)child art) but at school she was reproducing Steiner sanctioned style. When
)we left Waldorf, we came home with a pile of her books and she sat at the
)kitchen table and drew one of her originals in one of the books, it stands
)out. This particular drawing is light years a head and beyond anything else
)drawn in her books. She was finally making her *own* mark, free from the
)Waldorf aesthetic and color police.
)
)Now, when I see pictures of faceless gnomes, faceless angels or faceless
)Michaels slaying dragons with angels looking on, or Waldorf classrooms with
)scarves draped around and Waldorf styled wooden toys, faceless waldorf
)sanctioned dolls, nature alters, colors with esoteric meaning and lazured
)walls I get the heebie jeebies.
Debra:
I love children's art too. I have several framed pieces that I
cherish, and lots more to frame that I have saved. I subscribe to the
line is more than a line thought. Sometimes a line can be beautiful
all by itself.
I spoke to someone just the other night whose good friend is an art
therapist. She said her good friend works with many Waldorf kids in
her area. According to her friend, Waldorf kids are the hardest to
work with because they have no art inside them. Waldorf art is spoon
fed - stuffed down kids throats, even. Too rigid. Waldorf takes
individual artistic expression *out* of them. I've heard this over
and over. Waldorf kids often don't know *what* to do if they aren't
directly instructed, so they fall back on something they have done
before - something familiar. How sad.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:00:53 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Things to know when considering enrolling a child in
Waldorf - was RE:
Prepari
Willow (re: Australian TV program):
)(begin quoted material)
)Although Rudolph Steinerís ideas are present in all that the School does
)right down to the colours of the classrooms, Anthroposophy is not taught.
)Andrew Hill
)Class Teacher
)It's something that's in a sense never mentioned really, certainly in the
)younger grades, because we want it to work in a practical sense in the
)children's lives. But we believe it does indicate that thoughts you have,
)your deepest strivings, your big picture of life, all of these things work
)right down into the physical atmosphere around people.
This is why the claims "we don't teach anthroposophy" are
disingenuous, or actually, outright deceitful. They believe that
even the thoughts of the teacher, not just what is said out loud, are taking
root in the young child in major, life-shaping ways - even shaping internal
organs! *Literally* the teacher's thoughts are said to enter the children
and "live" there. They believe that things presented as "pictures" in early
childhood will be understood abstractly later in life.
That's not teaching?! Good grief!
)They say it is never put on the children in any way - yet every quote from
)a teacher or staff member includes a reference to the soul, the spirit, or
)Steiner's teaching's on a given subject. I think that speaks for itself,
)regarding the presence of this material in the schools.
Certainly. It's ludicrous. Spend an hour in a Waldorf preschool
class. (Of course, you can't, not allowed.) The teacher talks all day long
about the angels and God and his many helpers like the nature spirits. Of
course Steiner's teachings are "put on" the children - or rather, "put in"
the children.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:06:55 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: scientology vs Anthro
on 5/13/02 3:59 AM, TJGarrity at Tjgarr859 aol.com wrote:
)the pattern of silence as to these way out teachings seems to many the
)danger, not the words themselves.
That's an excellent point. Actually that's the heart of it. People
can and do believe all sorts of irrational things, probably we all do.
The point is for people to tell you what they're up to, up
front - what their organization is about, what its goals are - if a
religious group is behind it it is not ethical to downplay this - not play
at cliques and clubs and secret societies on spiritual missions, like
children do, requiring use of coded language to indicate you are an insider,
etc.
You're absolutely right that's when it's dangerous.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 16:20:13 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re:Beauty /was Carlos Castaneda was a not fraud
Sharon wrote:
)Now, when I see pictures of faceless gnomes, faceless angels or faceless
)Michaels slaying dragons with angels looking on, or Waldorf classrooms with
)scarves draped around and Waldorf styled wooden toys, faceless waldorf
)sanctioned dolls,
I so agree with you. But I've noticed actually that the gnomes and
angels and Michael's and dragons are not as often faceless as the
humans.
Diana
)
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 12:31:27 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: scientology vs Anthro
) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
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on 5/14/02 6:23 AM, TJGarrity at Tjgarr859 aol.com wrote:
There is nothing wrong with this belief system or the people who are drawn
to its promise of "supersensability", however you cannot seperate
RS-Anthro-and Waldorf and expect informed people not to take notice and ask
the questions we have been.
I do not know what the problem is in admitting that this is a religious like
program to educate children. With all we have read and experienced one may
draw a dark conclusion that this belief system appears to be driven to
quietly indoctronate the uninformed over the long run which is unethical at
best.
Sharon: Anthroposophy stems from a long tradition of secrecy. Having secrets
makes some people feel more powerful I suppose. The Rosicrucians and others
hung onto this occult tradition of hiding. Secrecy was reinforced when the
Catholics tried to wipe out heretics. But when you've been raised to think
democratically, to be more open with an "anything goes" attitude, in a
society where religious freedom is the norm, esotericism smacks of very
deviant behavior. I think it would be hard for Anthros to become exoteric
because their religion requires that people come to the "truth" in freedom,
that they must search it out. This is why they feel obligated not to be
frank, open, forthright. They are in a bit of a hard place because I don't
think they would have much interest in Waldorf if they were open, I know I
would have crossed the road if I had read that they were educating kids from
the Anthro perspective, that they saw kids as having astral bodies etc. When
I first started to read Anthroposophy I found it shocking! It gave me night
terrors, probably because it was all going on under my nose without my
understanding or approval, but Steiner is wacky and people like me would
never choose such a school if we knew the basis. If they had told me flat
out that they teach violent Bible stories, star magic and that they believe
gnomes actually exist, etc, I would have thought they were nuts. So instead,
they just do their quiet job, which backfires often because you can't dupe
all the people all of the time! In the end, after many years and struggles,
we will be heard, so I wish they'd cut their losses now, get out of the
public system and get exoteric. It is my hope, that the schools that keep
expanding with public monies get into deep trouble for thumbing their noses
at PLANS' warnings of First Amendment violations. In the end, this arrogance
of ignoring the Constitution, could lead them into bankruptcy and out of
business.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 12:48:35 -0400
From: "King, Jennifer S" (JKING1 ORA.FDA.GOV)
Subject: RE:Waldorf Aesthetics - was Beauty /was Carlos Castaneda was a no
t fraud
Sharon wrote:
)Now, when I see pictures of faceless gnomes, faceless angels or faceless
Michaels slaying dragons with angels looking on, or Waldorf classrooms with
scarves draped around and Waldorf styled wooden toys, faceless waldorf
sanctioned dolls,
Diana wrote:
)I so agree with you. But I've noticed actually that the gnomes and
angels and Michael's and dragons are not as often faceless as the
humans.
Hmmmm.... I have not pulled my boys out of their Waldorf preschool as of
yet. The other day I noticed a pretty light orangey/ rose colored sheer
scarf draped down over some wooden chairs/ furniture, and yesterday I
noticed a couple of little angles on the beam over the doorway. There are
Madonna & child pictures with fresh flowers & candles in each room.
Personally, I really like the Waldorf aesthetic, but don't get the apparent
aversion to bold colors for young children.(?) I have natural wood
children's furniture, wooden rocking horse, wooden, wool and cotton toys at
home. They reside right next to the Tonka trucks, bright red fire engines,
play stroller, rubber balls, and legos. Not mutually exclusive! The
preschool was Montessori under previous ownership, and is being transformed
to Waldorf. The Montessori classroom ends next month, and with it all
plastic, numbers, letters and bold primary colors, I assume.
My boys seem pretty happy when I drop them off at preschool. They don't
cry. They start playing right away with the wooden horses and woolen
stuffed toys. But yesterday one of them had a complete meltdown, a
flip-flopping, kicking, rolling tantrum when we got home, and he was not
easily consoled. He has never done that before. At this age, it's hard to
know what is the matter. They can't tell me. I don't know if it is
separation anxiety, feeling two-ish, or what.
I have not had time to ask lots of questions - I am still formulating them
(with the help of this list - thank you!!!). If the preschool will not let
me spend some time in the classroom observing, I will pull my boys out
forthwith.
Jennifer
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:02:27 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Things to know when considering enrolling a child in Waldorf
- was RE: Prep
on 5/14/02 8:00 AM, Diana Winters at Winters_Diana hotmail.com wrote:
) This is why the claims "we don't teach anthroposophy" are
) disingenuous, or actually, outright deceitful. They believe that
) even the thoughts of the teacher, not just what is said out loud, are taking
) root in the young child in major, life-shaping ways - even shaping internal
) organs! *Literally* the teacher's thoughts are said to enter the children
) and "live" there. They believe that things presented as "pictures" in early
) childhood will be understood abstractly later in life.
)
Steiner: "Interestingly, the difference between those who come to
anthroposophy and really embrace it and those who do not is that the I of
the former is as if cristallized into a spiritual being through
anthroposophical thinking, a spiritual being that is then carried along
through the gate of death. The others, who do not practice anthroposophical
thinking, have a hollow space, a nothingness in the place where the I is now
in physical life and after death. Any other concepts we can take in nowadays
will gradually become more and more immaterial for the true core of the
human soul. The central essence of the human being will be touched and
understood only by the anthroposophical thoughts we take in. These
crystallize a spiritual substance in us that we can take with us after death
and that enables us to perceive in the spiritual world, to see and hear and
to penetrate the darkness that would otherwise exist there for us" (22-23
The Universal Human, Steiner, Anthroposophic Press 1990 Lectures from 1909).
)
)) They say it is never put on the children in any way - yet every quote from
)) a teacher or staff member includes a reference to the soul, the spirit, or
)) Steiner's teaching's on a given subject. I think that speaks for itself,
)) regarding the presence of this material in the schools.
)
) Certainly. It's ludicrous. Spend an hour in a Waldorf preschool
) class. (Of course, you can't, not allowed.) The teacher talks all day long
) about the angels and God and his many helpers like the nature spirits. Of
) course Steiner's teachings are "put on" the children - or rather, "put in"
) the children.
Sharon: a couple quotes from my daughter's lesson book (I promise that my
child did not learn any of this at home! (G)):
..."Soon after thay arived to mount moria and made a small fire and lade his
son a pon it and rased his knife a bove his head and Isaacs sole fled from
his body and Abraham was just about to plung the knife in Isaac's chest when
Miciel stept out of the clowds and said "Abraham pot down that knife you
have proovin yourself werthy".
Another pathetic Anthro inculcation without my santion, this particular
lesson makes me really sad because I think about the possible teacher's
weird esoteric interpretations and judgements, note the first part copied
off the board, the commentary below from my young child in her own words:
"I will search for the master of greatest might. I will search for the star
of brightest light. I will work to achieve the highest goal. Courageous and
with reverant soul. I will serve.
The Story was Stransh in its own way. But i liki it anyway. My fafrete Part
was abowt the Devil. wen we Do The play I wont to Be the Devil".
Here's another comment scratched with finger nail into one of my daughter's
wet-on-wet blobs of a spiritual Anthro exercise: "This is a dum pickcher"
Another Anthro lesson on microcosm/macrocosm and reincarnation:
"The human being is like a little universe inside a big one. Sun, moon and
stars find their likeness in mans head, trunk and limbs. Each part has its
special work. Our heads are the quietest part of us. The eyes, ears, nose
and mouth are our windows and our doors. Our senses bring us messages from
the outside world. We understand these messages in our thoughts. Our limbs
are our servants. Our legs carry us to where we want to go. Our hands can
work good or evil in the world. As humans we can choose. Between head and
limbs is the trunk. Our trunk is a combination of the roundness of our head
and the straightness of our limbs. There resides the rhythm of heart and
lungs. What head plans and the heart feels is good and true, the hands can
do."
Also:"Head be clearer, heart be truer, fears be fewer, freedom nearer. Sun,
moon and stars above me weave within the heavens blue may I on earth a
pattern weave of words and deeds as true."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:04:04 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: re: things to know before enrolling ...
Sharon tells us that her daughter did the following while in Waldorf:
Here's another comment scratched with finger nail into one of my daughter's
wet-on-wet blobs of a spiritual Anthro exercise: "This is a dum pickcher"
Lisa: LOL! Outa the mouths of babes ....
The "art" experience at Waldorf is frustrating for so many children,
because it has nothing to do with self expression. But how much more so it
must be for the child of two professional artists, a child who has held a
crayon and paintbrush and been encouraged to just let go and create since
she was old enough to do so!
"A dum pickcher," indeed. Way to do, Z!
(The girl's preference for being the "devil" in the class play also
tickled me. Sounds like my daughter. She always raised her hand to play the
mean troll, or the bad guy, and the teacher would just ignore her. I am sure
that the teachers made much of this desire to play the character parts ....)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:22:06 EDT
From: Tjgarr859 aol.com
Subject: Re: Waldorf Aesthetics - was Beauty /was Carlos Castaneda
was a no t fraud
--part1_a5.27af7c56.2a12bdde_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 5/14/02 12:53:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jking1 ora.fda.gov writes:
)
) Sharon wrote:
)
) )Now, when I see pictures of faceless gnomes, faceless angels or faceless
) Michaels slaying dragons with angels looking on, or Waldorf classrooms with
) scarves draped around and Waldorf styled wooden toys, faceless waldorf
) sanctioned dolls,
)
) Diana wrote:
) )I so agree with you. But I've noticed actually that the gnomes and
) angels and Michael's and dragons are not as often faceless as the
) humans.
)
)
) Hmmmm.... I have not pulled my boys out of their Waldorf preschool as of
) yet. The other day I noticed a pretty light orangey/ rose colored sheer
) scarf draped down over some wooden chairs/ furniture, and yesterday I
) noticed a couple of little angles on the beam over the doorway. There are
) Madonna & child pictures with fresh flowers & candles in each room.
) Personally, I really like the Waldorf aesthetic, but don't get the apparent
) aversion to bold colors for young children.(?) I have natural wood
) children's furniture, wooden rocking horse, wooden, wool and cotton toys at
) home. They reside right next to the Tonka trucks, bright red fire engines,
) play stroller, rubber balls, and legos. Not mutually exclusive! The
) preschool was Montessori under previous ownership, and is being transformed
) to Waldorf. The Montessori classroom ends next month, and with it all
) plastic, numbers, letters and bold primary colors, I assume.
)
) My boys seem pretty happy when I drop them off at preschool. They don't
) cry. They start playing right away with the wooden horses and woolen
) stuffed toys. But yesterday one of them had a complete meltdown, a
) flip-flopping, kicking, rolling tantrum when we got home, and he was not
) easily consoled. He has never done that before. At this age, it's hard to
) know what is the matter. They can't tell me. I don't know if it is
) separation anxiety, feeling two-ish, or what.
)
)
) I have not had time to ask lots of questions - I am still formulating them
) (with the help of this list - thank you!!!). If the preschool will not let
) me spend some time in the classroom observing, I will pull my boys out
) forthwith.
)
)
Tom
Not to be flip or judgemental, if you don't really know what's going on, then
why take the chance. You seem to be engaged, articulate, and
intelligent.......Your impressions and instincts are serving you well.
I deeply regret not getting more involved when my wife enrolled my youngest
son in the school and started working there as well. I thought is was a OK
because the outward appearance seemed to indicate a natural surroundings
which is very much in tune with our belief in more earthy ways. I can't
explain it, but I was uncomfortable from the first open house I went to, but
it was not until my first parent teacher conferance that my instincts (radar)
were aroused and I made it my business to get to the bottom of this mystical
place. I was also shocked and partially dispondent over what I read and
discovered because I believed that my wife had unwittingly joined a
cult....In reality this was not the case because after I shared the articles
and various e-mails with her, she also realized that she was duped.
Now that the school year is drawing to a close my wife now validates much of
what I have read and heard because she is still inside: behavior problems,
teachers banding together against parents, way out beliefs that are 100%
RS-Anthro. doctrine. herbs, karma, right down to the paint on the
walls..........
If you are like me, I have not put this down for the last two months and feel
i will continue to read and listen to this stuff for some time to come. It is
actually pretty interesting, in a twisted sort of way.
Don't give up on you feelings.
Good luck
Tom
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 20:06:04 +0000
From: Marja (marja.viita luukku.com)
Subject: Esoteric colours on the walls of the class room
mysplum wrote:
) colors with esoteric meaning and lazured
) walls I get the heebie jeebies.
)
I have asked many times Waldorf teachers the real meaning of lazured
painting and colors on each class room. I didn't get any believable
answer. Does anyone know the answer?
I have a feeling that it has something to do with reincarnation
(somekind red is at first class and it comes again on 12. class, but
then red is transformed).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 20:22:54 +0000
From: Marja (marja.viita luukku.com)
Subject: Colored sheer scarfs
JK wrote:
) The other day I noticed a pretty light orangey/ rose colored sheer
) scarf draped down over some wooden chairs/ furniture,...
I have wondered the esoteric meaning of those sheer scarfs. Does
somebody know the meaning?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 16:28:41 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Esoteric colours on the walls of the class room
)
) mysplum wrote:
)
)) colors with esoteric meaning and lazured
)) walls I get the heebie jeebies.
))
) I have asked many times Waldorf teachers the real meaning of lazured
) painting and colors on each class room. I didn't get any believable
) answer. Does anyone know the answer?
) I have a feeling that it has something to do with reincarnation
) (somekind red is at first class and it comes again on 12. class, but
) then red is transformed).
)
Lisa: I don't have that info in front of me, but I *do* have it somewhere.
In Waldorf, colors (like most other things) have estoric meaning. The
pinkish-salmon color of the first grade classroom is intentional, as is the
greenish-yellow of the fourth grade. If possible, the paint is more of a
colored glaze applied through a procedure known as lazuring.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:29:24 +1000 (EST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Kate=20Booth?= (kateabooth yahoo.com.au)
Subject: re: things to know before enrolling ...
My son has an art lesson once a week with a Waldorf
yr7 student who is great.He loves it and has already
begun to learn so much about colour etc.I will however
not allow any wet on wet techniques and I monitor the
lessons *quietly* in the background.At the moment they
are on to merging and shading colours.
Kate
--- Lisa Ercolano (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
)
) Sharon tells us that her daughter did the following
) while in Waldorf:
)
) Here's another comment scratched with finger nail
) into one of my daughter's
) wet-on-wet blobs of a spiritual Anthro exercise:
) "This is a dum pickcher"
)
) Lisa: LOL! Outa the mouths of babes ....
) The "art" experience at Waldorf is frustrating
) for so many children,
) because it has nothing to do with self expression.
) But how much more so it
) must be for the child of two professional artists, a
) child who has held a
) crayon and paintbrush and been encouraged to just
) let go and create since
) she was old enough to do so!
) "A dum pickcher," indeed. Way to do, Z!
) (The girl's preference for being the "devil" in
) the class play also
) tickled me. Sounds like my daughter. She always
) raised her hand to play the
) mean troll, or the bad guy, and the teacher would
) just ignore her. I am sure
) that the teachers made much of this desire to play
) the character parts ....)
)
)
)
http://briefcase.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Briefcase
- Save your important files online for easy access!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:02:54 +0930
From: Willow Firesong (Willow.Firesong creative-interweb.com)
Subject: RE: Carlos Castaneda was a not fraud
At 14-05-02 12:55 PM Tuesday, I wrote:
The facts of Casteneda's life are known and demonstrable. The plants that
Casteneda describes himself as having ingested are indeed psychoactive -
but they are also extremely poisonous, including the Natural with which
Casteneda is supposed to have literally *flown*, if one is to take the
books as literal accounts of factual experiences. An appalling number of
people have poisoned themselves over the years in their attempts to pursue
in real life Casteneda's fictional accounts as a method of shamanic
self-initiation; all that they have successfully demonstrated is that
identification of wild mushrooms is a matter for experts, and that Natural
has earned its place on the poisonous plant lists compiled by those
individuals who have actual knowledge of the plants of the region, and
their properties.
(end quoted material)
Actually, that's not quite what I wrote, but it's what got sent, thanks to
an auto-correcting spell checker in my email program, which changed all
references to "Datura", to "Natural". (sigh)
The above SHOULD read:
(begin quoted material)
The facts of Casteneda's life are known and demonstrable. The plants that
Casteneda describes himself as having ingested are indeed psychoactive -
but they are also extremely poisonous, including the Datura with which
Casteneda is supposed to have literally *flown*, if one is to take the
books as literal accounts of factual experiences. An appalling number of
people have poisoned themselves over the years in their attempts to pursue
in real life Casteneda's fictional accounts as a method of shamanic
self-initiation; all that they have successfully demonstrated is that
identification of wild mushrooms is a matter for experts, and that Datura
has earned its place on the poisonous plant lists compiled by those
individuals who have actual knowledge of the plants of the region, and
their properties.
(end quoted material)
My apologies.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 01:18:44 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE:Percedol - Waldorf Preschool
Jennifer, you wrote,
)About the mistletoe extract - yes, it is used to prepare Iscador - also
)called Weleda (from the Weleda Co. in Europe). I am just learning now about
)Anthroposophical "medicine." The DCP said she gives it to children to
)"boost their immunity."
Weleda is a manufacturer's brand name. Iscador is a product, made
from mistletoe according to Steiner's specifications, as a cancer
cure. If the teacher is giving them "weleda," ask "Weleda WHAT?" They
make hundreds of products. Iscador is injected, btw, so I hope
they're not doing that.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 00:54:01 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: membership numbers?
At 11:09 PM -0700 5/6/02, walden wrote:
)Would anyone happen to have any membership numbers for Anthroposophy? I
)realize it would be difficult to estimate and membership *could* be
)perceived as being one of the *chosen* pockets of missionaries to a wanna be
)guru in a Waldorf classroom to the local Biodynamic gardener - but an
)estimation based on some study, perhaps?
)
)I am trying to get an idea of the scope of this movement as it might be
)compared to Scientology, for example.
In 1997, a writer on anthropos-science (RigbyL aol.com) said that
Anthroposophy had about 50,000 members.
-Dan
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 732
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Esoteric colours on the walls of the class room
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: things to know before enrolling ...
By mysplum earthlink.net
Combination of Blue and Yellow...
By marja.viita luukku.com
RE: Dan - Was - Percedol - Waldorf Preschool
By jking1 ora.fda.gov
Re: Waldorf aesthetic (was:
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: Combination of Blue and Yellow...
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: Dan - Was - Percedol - Waldorf Preschool
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: Combination of Blue and Yellow...
By mysplum earthlink.net
anthro view of breastfeeding
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Breastfeeding, Anthro style
By snell gv.net
Admin: help with missing digest files
By dan dandugan.com
Re: anthro view of breastfeeding
By mysplum earthlink.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 07:28:56 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Esoteric colours on the walls of the class room
)))
)) I have asked many times Waldorf teachers the real meaning of lazured
)) painting and colors on each class room. I didn't get any believable
)) answer. Does anyone know the answer?
)) I have a feeling that it has something to do with reincarnation
)) (somekind red is at first class and it comes again on 12. class, but
)) then red is transformed).
Sharon: Print this up and take it into your Waldorf teacher and ask for a
full accounting of what beings are invoked and seen with which color,
because you need to know as your child's parent. Steiner said that if you
devote yourself to the color on the walls, you will learn to see through the
walls and see the spiritual beings in the neighborhood! The color you devote
yourself to will depend on what beings reveal themselves. Steiner believed
that colors are the outer expression of actual spiritual beings. He said
that spiritual beings visit us on the wings of color. The Rosicrucians and
other magicians believe this as well, they would paint counter colors on
talismans to invoke certain beings and draw down the Akasha, (like Waldorf
pupils paint). For some Rosicrucians, Michael was red and green. The
following are the colors that Steiner said belong to the planets, remember
that planets are just the outer expression of spiritual beings: Saturn-blue,
Sun-white, Moon-purple, Mars-red, Mercury-yellow, Jupiter-orange,
Venus-green. My daughter used to complain about her teacher's eyes which
stared. I often wonder if her teacher was devoting herself to the color on
the walls, and by doing so, scared my daughter.
Steiner: "You will best realize the significance of colour if we describe
how it affects the occultist. For this it is necessary that a person should
free himself completely from everything else and devote himself to the
particular colour, immerse himself in it. If the person devoting himself to
the colour which covers these physically dense walls were one who had made
certain occult progress, it would come about that after a period of this
complete devotion the walls would disappear from his clairvoyant vision; the
consciousness that the walls shut off the outer world would vanish. Now,
what appears first is not merely that he sees the neighboring houses
outside, that the walls become like glass, but in the sphere which opens up
there is a world of purely spiritual phenomena; spiritual facts and
spiritual figures become visible. We need only reflect that behind
everything around us physically there are spiritual beings and facts...The
worlds which surround us spiritually are of many kinds, many different kinds
of elementary beings are around us. These are not enclosed in boxes or in
such a state that they live in various houses... But they cannot all be seen
in the same way; according to the capacity of clairvoyant vision, there may
be visible and invisible beings in the same space. What spiritual beings
become visible in any particular instance depends on the colour to which we
devote ourselves. In a red room, other beings become visible than in a blue
room, when one penetrates to them by means of colour. We may now ask: what
happens if one is not clairvoyant? That which the clairvoyant does
consciously is done unconsciously by the etheric body of a person not
clairvoyantly trained; it enters a certain relationship with the same
beings." ( Lecture given by Steiner in dedication of the Stuttgart House /
underground Rosicrucian Temple 15 October 1911. Art Inspired by Rudolf
Steiner, John Fletcher Mercury Arts Publications 1987).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 08:01:06 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: things to know before enrolling ...
on 5/14/02 9:29 PM, Kate Booth at kateabooth yahoo.com.au wrote:
) My son has an art lesson once a week with a Waldorf
) yr7 student who is great.He loves it and has already
) begun to learn so much about colour etc.I will however
) not allow any wet on wet techniques and I monitor the
) lessons *quietly* in the background.At the moment they
) are on to merging and shading colours.
) Kate
)
Sharon: There's nothing wrong with the wet-on-wet technique, it can be a
nice exercise. I just have problems when children are forced to make
talismans, to paint Steiner icons, Steiner's spirit world and invoke beings
by using such a technique. I have problems with people viewing such
spiritual pictures as the work of spiritual beings, I have difficulty with
the fact that teachers use the pictures to analyze children with. I have
problems with Anthroposophy. As a parent, I have every right to be told
about the esoteric subtext. There are many wonderful techniques that can be
utilized in art, too bad Waldorf doesn't let children experiment with all
sorts of techniques and express themselves.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 13:15:19 +0000
From: Marja (marja.viita luukku.com)
Subject: Combination of Blue and Yellow...
Many thanks to mysplum for information.
In some Waldorf-book I read years ago:
At the first class it is very important that child will learn that
combination of blue and yellow is more beautiful than combination of
green and yellow. This was the start for my investigations of waldorf
pedagogik. I had to read about 50 books from Rs, before I read that its
was really given by RS. But even in RS's book it was not explained, why
it is important that child will learn that combination of blue and
yellow is more beautiful than combination of green and yellow.
Can anyone give the explanation? I think that such school can't be very
creative, if such narrowminded bounds are set.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 11:53:28 -0400
From: "King, Jennifer S" (JKING1 ORA.FDA.GOV)
Subject: RE: Dan - Was - Percedol - Waldorf Preschool
During my orientation meeting, the DCP (day care provider) mentioned Weleda
- and suggested I might have heard that Suzanne Sommers was using it for
cancer therapy. The DCP said it was recommended for boosting immunity. I am
pretty sure she was referring to the Iscador - I will clarify this. I told
them in no uncertain terms I did not want my babies getting any dietary
supplements/ Weleda products. They do use arnica topically for bruises -
that's fine with me.
The DCP recommended her pediatrician, whom she says is a regular doctor but
also an anthroposophist. She also recommended her homeopathic doctor.
My twins are very lean and muscular - 3rd percentile in weight, around 50th
in height - but in view and according to their pediatrician, very healthy.
The DCP thinks they need to have their immunity boosted. I think not.
Besides, at 18 months they are still breastfeeding, and nothing provides
better immunity than mother's milk.
Thanks!
Jennifer
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Dugan [mailto:dan dandugan.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 1:19 AM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: RE:Percedol - Waldorf Preschool
Jennifer, you wrote,
)About the mistletoe extract - yes, it is used to prepare Iscador - also
)called Weleda (from the Weleda Co. in Europe). I am just learning now
about
)Anthroposophical "medicine." The DCP said she gives it to children to
)"boost their immunity."
Weleda is a manufacturer's brand name. Iscador is a product, made
from mistletoe according to Steiner's specifications, as a cancer
cure. If the teacher is giving them "weleda," ask "Weleda WHAT?" They
make hundreds of products. Iscador is injected, btw, so I hope
they're not doing that.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 16:43:50 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf aesthetic (was:
Jennifer wrote:
)Hmmmm.... I have not pulled my boys out of their Waldorf preschool as of
)yet. The other day I noticed a pretty light orangey/ rose )colored sheer
)scarf draped down over some wooden chairs/ furniture, )and yesterday I
)noticed a couple of little angles on the beam over the )doorway. There are
)Madonna & child pictures with fresh flowers & )candles in each room.
)Personally, I really like the Waldorf aesthetic, )but don't get the
)apparent aversion to bold colors for young )children.(?)
I really liked the Waldorf aesthetic too for a long time, it's sort
of a question of the negative associations building up, and now,
like Sharon, it just makes me want to gag. It seems very *un*natural
to me now. Ironic, since everything is natural materials. But it's actually
the opposite of "natural," you know, when *everything* is contrived,
stage-managed, and based on unwritten rules. You walk into a Waldorf
kindergarten and if you have not seen this before, it appears serene and
beautiful. And I will certainly give Waldorf teachers credit for being
talented arrangers of flowers and furniture, creating ambiance. They know -
literally - how to work magic with those silk scarves.
Perhaps what spoiled it for me is seeing the behind-the-scenes
machinations - AGONIZING arguments and petty, stupid bickering and
oneupsmanship - that went on to achieve the surface effects. There
is a rule for how to place every frigging candle, what order to
arrange the little stones in, what colors should be used for which
season and *exactly* which day they should be changed. The teachers
don't agree and they start tormenting each other. Everything is a
"soul indication" and one accuses the other of damaging the
children's etheric bodies or something if the wrong color is used .
. . You start to realize, actually this is pretty sick and
obsessive.
The effects of such "beauty" wear off.
)I have natural wood children's furniture, wooden rocking horse, wooden,
)wool and cotton toys at home. They reside right next to the Tonka trucks,
)bright red fire engines, play stroller, rubber balls, and legos. Not
)mutually exclusive!
Not for you, because you're not obsessed with esoteric correctness.
For the Waldorf teacher the things you mention are indeed mutually
exclusive. This may not bother you, but it may bother your kids, if
they are shamed for talking about their bright red fire engines at
school.
)My boys seem pretty happy when I drop them off at preschool. They don't
)cry. They start playing right away with the wooden horses and )woolen
)stuffed toys. But yesterday one of them had a complete )meltdown, a
)flip-flopping, kicking, rolling tantrum when we got home, )and he was not
)easily consoled. He has never done that before. At this )age, it's hard to
)know what is the matter. They can't tell me. I don't )know if it is
)separation anxiety, feeling two-ish, or what.
It is hard to know, maybe normal toddler meltdown.
)I have not had time to ask lots of questions - I am still formulating them
)(with the help of this list - thank you!!!). If the preschool will not let
)me spend some time in the classroom observing, I will pull my boys out
)forthwith.
That's the key, and I'll repeat my advice that this needs to be a
period of at least a couple of hours, preferably more. It should not
be during some carefully staged, half-hour school event like a puppet show
-it's easy to deflect parents this way. It needs to be a typical morning
play period, plus circle time, story time, outdoor time, and snack or lunch.
If your kids stay for rest time, it would be good to see how that goes too.
Preferably on a couple of different days. You need to see the hour-by-hour
classroom dynamics, and assess the safety and hygiene, in the classroom, on
the playground, in the bathroom and kitchen.
Jennifer, the class could be absolutely fine, the kids could be very
happy. I (for one) don't claim every Waldorf preschool class is a
raging disaster just because the ones I observed mostly were. My own
son was in one Waldorf preschool class that was a lovely, safe,
happy environment, with a very kind teacher. Unfortunately it was
the exception rather than the rule. You just need to find out. Good
luck, and let us know.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 16:49:31 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Combination of Blue and Yellow...
Marja wrote:
)In some Waldorf-book I read years ago: At the first class it is very
) )important that child will learn that combination of blue and yellow is
) )more beautiful than combination of green and yellow. This was the )start
)for my investigations of waldorf pedagogik. I had to read about )50 books
)from Rs, before I read that its was really given by RS. But )even in RS's
)book it was not explained, why it is important that child )will learn that
)combination of blue and yellow is more beautiful than )combination of green
)and yellow. Can anyone give the explanation? I )think that such school
)can't be very creative, if such narrowminded )bounds are set.
Of course there is an esoteric explanation, but I don't know what it is. You
are right that the danger is in the narrow mindedness - telling people what
colors they ought to think are beautiful!
Anyway, you could probably find another place where Steiner
said just the opposite. Then the purists argue. Our teachers argued about
the proper sequence of colors for painting, should they always do
red first? Or should they always do blue first? Tensions run high over such
things because, of course, "soul damage" is at stake.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:54:09 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Dan - Was - Percedol - Waldorf Preschool
Jennifer wrote:
) My twins are very lean and muscular - 3rd percentile in weight, around
50th
) in height - but in view and according to their pediatrician, very healthy.
) The DCP thinks they need to have their immunity boosted. I think not.
) Besides, at 18 months they are still breastfeeding, and nothing provides
) better immunity than mother's milk.
)
) Thanks!
Walden:
You might get an argument from your Steiner DCP on that. I believe Steiner
was not a fan of breast feeding past a certain age. Maybe that is why they
want the Weleda Anthro products in your twins bodies ASAP. Anyone have info
on Steiner and breast milk?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 13:24:39 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Combination of Blue and Yellow...
on 5/15/02 6:15 AM, Marja at marja.viita luukku.com wrote:
)
) In some Waldorf-book I read years ago:
) At the first class it is very important that child will learn that
) combination of blue and yellow is more beautiful than combination of
) green and yellow. This was the start for my investigations of waldorf
) pedagogik.
Sharon: Young Waldorf pupils are only given yellow and blue color at first.
My child found this very tedious, because she was used to having all sorts
of colors with which to express herself from the time she could hold a
paintbrush. Before Waldorf, I'd never read Anthroposophy/Rosicrucianism, or
knew about talismans, or the belief that colors can heal because they are
spiritual beings, so I wasn't able to pin point what was going on, though it
concerned me. I became aware that something was "off" in Waldorf classrooms.
If you look at the PLANS site you can see some examples of the yellow and
blue talismans that my daughter painted. Click on "Art Gallery" and find the
wet-on-wets that are strictly yellow or blue. I'm not certain who the actual
beings are in Anthroposophy, (all magic systems differ and Steiner's system
is difficult to obtain) but perhaps they are the forces of Saturn (blue) and
Mercury (yellow). These blue and yellow exercises have an occult mission,
namely, to help the child incarnate. Anthroposophist Audrey Mc Allen
endorsed Steiner's white magic instructions when she wrote in her book
Sleep, an Unobserved Element in Education:
"The colors which the child uses for the expression of the harmonious
connection with his body before the change of teeth are blue and yellow; out
of these colours the soul weaves its connections with the hereditary body
and transforms it" (44).
Another Anthropop said "Art is taught, not to make children into artists,
but to expose them to the healing influence of color..." (Richards).
Here Steiner elaborates further on his color therapy:
Steiner:"A nervous, that is to say excitable child should be treated
differently as regards environment from one who is quiet and lethargic.
Everything comes into consideration, from the colour of the room and various
objects that are generally around the child, to the colour of the clothes in
which he is dressed...An excitable child should be surrounded by and dressed
in red and reddish-yellow colours, whereas for a lethargic child one should
have recourse to the blue or bluish-green shades of colour. For the
important thing is the complimentary colour, which is created within the
child. In the case of red it is green, and in the case of blue
orange-yellow" (Brunhild Muller,7-8. Painting with Children, Floris Books,
Edinburgh 1994).
Sharon: You must keep in mind that the paints are manufactured by Stockmar,
an Anthro company, and certain plants and metals are used to make the
paints. These are suspended in water, and applied to wet parchment - this is
a traditional way to make talismans. The plants and the colors all have a
cosmic purpose as channelled by Steiner. Most people today would say that
Steiner's color dictates are subjective, but if you are a believer in
Steiner's religion, then such notions are palatable. Like yourself, I find
Steiner's fantasies very oppressive and narrow, but some people find peace
and happiness in totalitarianism!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 21:40:36 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: anthro view of breastfeeding
Jennifer tells us (referring to her darling 18 month old twin guys!):
My twins are very lean and muscular - 3rd percentile in weight, around 50th
in height - but in view and according to their pediatrician, very healthy.
The DCP thinks they need to have their immunity boosted. I think not.
Besides, at 18 months they are still breastfeeding, and nothing provides
better immunity than mother's milk.
Lisa here: Jennifer, you may be interested to know that "extended"
breastfeeding -- that is, breastfeeding beyond the age of 6 months -- is
frowned upon at Waldorf schools/ in Anthroposophy.
Why is this, when most of us modern-day folk *know* that breastfeeding
is so healthy?
Because Steiner, who hardly had anything to do with real living human
children his entire life, wrote that breastfeeding beyond the age of 6
months is harmful to a child spiritually!
I don't have the whole anthro explanation for this (Sharon, perhaps you
can help me here! (g)) but I believe the gist of his reason was that
breastfeeding longer than 6 months somehow puts the baby's spiritual forces
in danger of being dominated by the nursing parent! (Along the same lines,
Steiner also believed if a child looks *very* much like a parent, that child
is "less" himself than he should be!)
As someone who nursed her older girl for more than two years, I was
shocked when I learned that Waldorf did not support this kind of thing.
(Like many people, I assumed that Waldorf was *the* place for those of us
who believed in the family bed, cloth diapers, organic food and no-spanking!
BTW: Waldorfians also disapprove of the family bed. Steiner taught -- and
they believe -- that during sleep, people's souls (or whatever the right
word is!) leave their bodies. Apparently, if adults sleep with their
children, this somehow impedes the more immature sou in its travels.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 21:09:37 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Breastfeeding, Anthro style
) Jennifer wrote:
)) My twins are very lean and muscular - 3rd percentile in weight, around
)50th
)) in height - but in view and according to their pediatrician, very healthy.
)) The DCP thinks they need to have their immunity boosted. I think not.
)) Besides, at 18 months they are still breastfeeding, and nothing provides
)) better immunity than mother's milk.
))
)) Thanks!
)
)
)Walden:
)
)You might get an argument from your Steiner DCP on that. I believe Steiner
)was not a fan of breast feeding past a certain age. Maybe that is why they
)want the Weleda Anthro products in your twins bodies ASAP. Anyone have info
)on Steiner and breast milk?
)
I have a beauty just dying to be posted. Six months is D-Day for
breast feeding:
"Babies should be fed on their mother's milk until they are six
months old. If they are weaned later than this, they remain much too
connected with the maternal forces of inheritance and become
over-dependent upon these forces. We can readily understand this
statement made by Rudolf Steine. At the end of its first half year,
the child is already trying to sit up. In this striving, as will be
more fully explained later, those forces of uprightness show
themselves that are working in the baby. They are a sign of how the
individuality is taking possession of the physical body. At six
months, the child may reach such a stage of development that it can
to a certain extent free itself from the forces of inheritance. This
freedom is most easily achieved in the domain of nutrition. At half a
year the child is able to digest other than the mother's milk without
any difficulty. Besides this, observation teaches us that the child
who remains too long at the breast comes to resemble its parent
closely. In the past, when people loved to see in a child the image
of its mother, children were still given the breast, even when they
could already run about. Among peasants and gypsies this was the
usual thing - and may still be."
Conception Birth & Early Childhood, Norbert Glas, M.D.,
Anthroposophic Press, Inc., Spring Valley, NY, 1972, pp.41-42.
This book is a gold mine. It has been sitting on my desk for awhile
now, just waiting for me to have time to post a few of the goodies.
See? It's all about Soul and Race Evolution 101!
Debra
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 22:54:52 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: help with missing digest files
Dear correspondents, while I was in Yellowstone my mailbox overflowed
and I missed digests 725 through 729. Does anyone have them?
Thanks in advance, Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 06:53:12 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: anthro view of breastfeeding
on 5/15/02 6:40 PM, Lisa Ercolano at momof2gals mindspring.com wrote:
) Because Steiner, who hardly had anything to do with real living human
) children his entire life, wrote that breastfeeding beyond the age of 6
) months is harmful to a child spiritually!
) I don't have the whole anthro explanation for this (Sharon, perhaps you
) can help me here! (g))
Sharon: Sorry, I haven't any Anthroposophic books on that subject here, I
don't know.
Lisa: Steiner taught -- and
) they believe -- that during sleep, people's souls (or whatever the right
) word is!) leave their bodies.
Sharon: It's "astral body". Steiner taught that the astral body leaves the
sleeping physical body (in bed) and winds its way out into the cosmos to
drink forces of planetary beings, returning when the body awakes. The Astral
body leaves the physical body upon death and whirls about in the cosmos
looking for suitable parents once you decide to reincarnate. It looks like a
bell facing downwards. It fully incarnates in your physical body during
puberty.
Steiner said people have 9 bodies, because a couple of them are contained
within each other, he simplified to seven. This was further simplified to
four: 1) Physical body, 2) Etheric body, 3) Astral body, and 4) I body. The
Etheric body never leaves the Physical body while living on earth, only if
you get a fright does it loosen. When you die the Etheric body leaves the
physical body. Just before you incarnate, elemental beings such as gnomes
attach the Etheric body to the Astral body.
The I body can be trained to leave the physical body and will also leave
when you die. If Anthroposophically trained, the I will remember who you
were in past lives and who you worked with on earth so that you can hook up
with fellow AAnthroposophists in the cosmos when you are dead and
reincarnate in Anthroposophic core groups that will be set up around the
globe when you incarnate in Steiner's proposed Sixth Epoch.
The Physical body is the body of flesh and bones that we inherit from the
parents we choose to be born to. Steiner's goal, like the Gnostics, is to
get rid of the physical body which will happen to the spiritually advanced
when Earth becomes Vulcan.
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 733
-- Topica Digest --
Trust your child!!!!!!!!!!!
By owenapp suscom-maine.net
Ahriman Returns!
By steve premofine.com
Numbness
By marja.viita luukku.com
Numbness
By marja.viita luukku.com
Re: Numbness
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Breastfeeding, Anthro style
By jking1 ora.fda.gov
Fletcher
By marja.viita luukku.com
re: breastfeeding, anthro style
By momof2gals mindspring.com
RE: Breastfeeding, Anthro style
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Which anthro is telling shit?
By marja.viita luukku.com
Re: anthro view of breastfeeding
By dan dandugan.com
Re: anthro view of breastfeeding
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Dan - Was - Percedol - Waldorf Preschool
By dan dandugan.com
RE: breastfeeding, anthro style
By jking1 ora.fda.gov
Re: Dan - Was - Percedol - Waldorf Preschool
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: anthro view of breastfeeding
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Fletcher
By mysplum earthlink.net
Steiner and the far right
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: Fletcher
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Fletcher
By mysplum earthlink.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 07:59:56 -0400
From: "Owen Appraisal" (owenapp suscom-maine.net)
Subject: Trust your child!!!!!!!!!!!
)"Willow Firesong" says with true insight: "No matter WHERE your child goes
to school, it's important to trust them, and trust yourself, with due care
to verify those facts which can be checked. Blind faith generally isn't a
good idea, no matter whom you are trusting - but if you're going to have
blind faith in anyone, on those issues which cannot be independently
verified, let it be in your child, and make sure that they know that they're
going to have to earn and live up to that standard of trust."
This was our big mistake. We couldn't believe that these seemingly
well-intentioned teachers were lying to us about our son. He was becoming
more argumentative at home, so "maybe its his age". Garbage, he was
becoming more argumentative at home because we had stopped listening to
him - kept believing that the teacher was so kind and caring. Makes me sick
just thinking about it. Our family has come a long way in finally forgiving
each other - realizing with the help of the experience of others on this
website just how much of a wedge they try to drive between the parents and
child(ren), so that the Teacher (aka the "spiritual guide") can perfect the
ultimate brain snatching.
) "Willow Firesong" also said: "I think in the end we were misled by what
we were told, but also by what it did not occur to us to ask. We assumed,
for instance, that in any school that was allowed to enroll children, there
would be safety policies which would preclude the kind of problems our
daughter encountered; while some such policies appear in the school's
printed material, they are useless if they remain unenforced due to
differences of interpretation that are based on the school's underlying
philosophies, which are those of Rudolf Steiner".
It does boggle the mind. I still am incensed that when we told the school
that one of our biggest concerns was safety and respect between students,
that they didn't admit to their karmic philosophy - instead stating that
they didn't have problems like that (i.e. physical or verbal altercations
between students) at Waldorf schools because the beauty of the pedagogy was
that it provided such a sense of community... Garbage again. The children
in our son's class treated each other much worse than the public school he
had come from, and of course they never thought it was important to disclose
to us that the teacher had lost half of the original 1st grade class because
of complaints about no control in the classroom and physical abuse by the
teacher. We only found out about this towards the end of 6th grade, after
we went to the administration to complain about the verbal and physical
abuse (from the teacher) that our son, as well as other students in the
classroom, were being subjected to. Bizarre.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 08:16:19 -0700
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: Ahriman Returns!
Ahriman has manifested on this plane in order to assert his proper
role as a comic book character. He's in this week's issue of
Superman: Man of Steel, along with some of his buddies.
He's one ugly dude.
Personally, I think that's the aspect of Anthroposophy that is most
valuable. The whole cosmology is great fodder for sci fi / fantasy
stories. The only problem is all those folks who take this kind of
stuff seriously....
--
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 17:40:36 +0000
From: Marja (marja.viita luukku.com)
Subject: Numbness
mysplum wrote:
) on 5/15/02 6:40 PM)
) Etheric body never leaves the Physical body while living on earth, only
) if
) you get a fright does it loosen. When you die the Etheric body leaves
) the
) physical body.
Steiner told that the etheric body can leave the physical body
temporarily partially. That action is commonly called "numbness".
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 17:40:37 +0000
From: Marja (marja.viita luukku.com)
Subject: Numbness
mysplum wrote:
) on 5/15/02 6:40 PM)
) Etheric body never leaves the Physical body while living on earth, only
) if
) you get a fright does it loosen. When you die the Etheric body leaves
) the
) physical body.
Steiner told that the etheric body can leave the physical body
temporarily partially. That action is commonly called "numbness".
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 14:27:09 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Numbness
on 5/16/02 10:40 AM, Marja at marja.viita luukku.com wrote:
)
) mysplum wrote:
)) on 5/15/02 6:40 PM)
)
)) Etheric body never leaves the Physical body while living on earth, only
)) if
)) you get a fright does it loosen. When you die the Etheric body leaves
)) the
)) physical body.
)
) Steiner told that the etheric body can leave the physical body
) temporarily partially. That action is commonly called "numbness".
Sharon: That's right, in Steiner's Outline of Occult Science he mentioned
that the tingling of pins and needles is when the etheric body has dislodged
from the physical body. In Theosophy of a Rosicrucian he says that the
etheric body never leaves unless you get a fright.
Marja, if you haven't already seen it, you must get a hold of a book called
Art Inspired By Rudolf Steiner, John Fletcher, Mercury Arts Publications
1987.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 14:53:58 -0400
From: "King, Jennifer S" (JKING1 ORA.FDA.GOV)
Subject: RE: Breastfeeding, Anthro style
Well....
My babies nurse before drifting off to sleep, then they snuggle next to me
all night long, and nurse a couple of times per night. When I pick them up
from day care, they want to nurse to re-connect after a long day. It
baffles me that in this day & age "enlightened" and educated people would
find fault with being so connected to your children! I am decidedly
un-Waldorf, I suppose...
I wonder how much of this stuff is a German thing? My ex "mother in law"
was raised in Germany, and came to this country when WWII ended. She is a
very sweet woman, but with very, very different ideas than me. When my
babies were six weeks old and going through a growth spurt (nursing every
hour or so!) she really let loose her cannons on me. She said "you are
feeding them too much, and holding them too much! You need to put them in
their cribs to "teach them their place." She went on to say that in her
day, "the doctor would have asked if they were sleeping through the night,
and if not, it was the parent's fault and that parent should not have had
children." Then she lectured me about how children should fit into the
family, and the adults should not have to change their ways for the
children. Oh, and she said I should have them on a strict 4 hour feeding
schedule.
Steiner is very old and outdated, to say the least. But also, I wonder how
much of the teachings are cultural?
-----Original Message-----
From: Debra Snell [mailto:snell gv.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 9:10 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Breastfeeding, Anthro style
) Jennifer wrote:
)) My twins are very lean and muscular - 3rd percentile in weight, around
)50th
)) in height - but in view and according to their pediatrician, very
healthy.
)) The DCP thinks they need to have their immunity boosted. I think not.
)) Besides, at 18 months they are still breastfeeding, and nothing provides
)) better immunity than mother's milk.
))
)) Thanks!
)
)
)Walden:
)
)You might get an argument from your Steiner DCP on that. I believe Steiner
)was not a fan of breast feeding past a certain age. Maybe that is why they
)want the Weleda Anthro products in your twins bodies ASAP. Anyone have
info
)on Steiner and breast milk?
)
I have a beauty just dying to be posted. Six months is D-Day for
breast feeding:
"Babies should be fed on their mother's milk until they are six
months old. If they are weaned later than this, they remain much too
connected with the maternal forces of inheritance and become
over-dependent upon these forces. We can readily understand this
statement made by Rudolf Steine. At the end of its first half year,
the child is already trying to sit up. In this striving, as will be
more fully explained later, those forces of uprightness show
themselves that are working in the baby. They are a sign of how the
individuality is taking possession of the physical body. At six
months, the child may reach such a stage of development that it can
to a certain extent free itself from the forces of inheritance. This
freedom is most easily achieved in the domain of nutrition. At half a
year the child is able to digest other than the mother's milk without
any difficulty. Besides this, observation teaches us that the child
who remains too long at the breast comes to resemble its parent
closely. In the past, when people loved to see in a child the image
of its mother, children were still given the breast, even when they
could already run about. Among peasants and gypsies this was the
usual thing - and may still be."
Conception Birth & Early Childhood, Norbert Glas, M.D.,
Anthroposophic Press, Inc., Spring Valley, NY, 1972, pp.41-42.
This book is a gold mine. It has been sitting on my desk for awhile
now, just waiting for me to have time to post a few of the goodies.
See? It's all about Soul and Race Evolution 101!
Debra
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 19:00:44 +0000
From: Marja (marja.viita luukku.com)
Subject: Fletcher
mysplum wrote:
) Marja, if you haven't already seen it, you must get a hold of a book
) called
) Art Inspired By Rudolf Steiner, John Fletcher, Mercury Arts Publications
) 1987.
I have not seen it. I suppose that book is not available in my country.
Could You give me some good quotations from the book. I found some
photos from book at PLANS-pages.
I found interesting link about Fletcher:
http://www.saltoun.plus.com/death/index.htm
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 15:03:00 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: re: breastfeeding, anthro style
Jennifer says:
Steiner is very old and outdated, to say the least. But also, I wonder how
much of the teachings are cultural?
Lisa: I think you have hit the nail on the head, so to speak. Steiner's
ideas *are* very "old and outdated," and, in many ways, very Germanic. He
was undoubtedly a man of his time.
What is frightening to me (as someone who had her child in a Waldorf
school for almost six years!) is that Waldorf teachers do not and will not
acknowledge that. They refuse to say (and even to believe, I imagine!) that
any of Steiner's ideas or teachings are outdated, however much those ideas
and notions conflict with more modern and enlightened views on human
development, biology and physiology and psychology. (The most they will
admit is "some of Steiner is difficult," and that is usually said in
response to queries about Steiner's racist and anti-Semitic statements.)
I once attended a parent evening at our former Waldorf school during
which an anthro doctor (an MD with anthro training) spoke about the harm
caused by breastfeeding a child longer than six months. He went on to say
that it was particularly harmful to nurse boy children longer than that.
"Oh, no!" gasped a young woman sitting next to me. "Oh, no!"
I asked her what was the matter.
"But I nursed my son until he was 10 months old!" she gasped, actual
tears springing into her eyes. "I was trying to do the right thing, and now
I have harmed him. I have to talk to that doctor right now!"
I tried to reassure her, but she was clearly in knots about this. She
sat almost on the edge of her seat until the talk was over, and then sprang
up and ran over to the doctor.
It's ironic that so many people who believe in attachment parenting,
extended breastfeeding, the family bed, natural fibers and food, etc. flock
to Waldorf, when much of that is not what Waldorf is about at all!
Did you know that Steiner taught that young babies should NOT be carried
around on the mother's body all day? That's right. Anthros teach that young
infants should be wrapped and kept in their cribs/bassinets, etc. with very
little stimulation in the early months.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:26:25 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Breastfeeding, Anthro style
Jennifer:
)She went on to say that in her day, "the doctor would have asked if )they
)were sleeping through the night, and if not, it was the parent's )fault and
)that parent should not have had children." Then she )lectured me about how
)children should fit into the family, and the )adults should not have to
)change their ways for the children. Oh, and )she said I should have them
)on a strict 4 hour feeding schedule.
I suppose Steiner's teachings about surrounding children with love may have
sounded very progressive for his day. We just need to say *compared with
what* is Steiner progressive? Compared with strict 4 hour schedules and
brutal punishments, mebbe so.
The early weaning advice is another area where Waldorf today is
"ambivalent," I think. Many know the early weaning is totally wrong, totally
contraindicated. A few hardliners cling to the early weaning advice. A few,
like Rahima Baldwin, try to pretty Steiner up a bit and pretend it is all
compatible with attachment parenting. Others speculate that if Steiner were
alive today, he'd have different views. I say, so what? Why listen to
outdated advice and speculate what the man would say today? Follow the
advice that *isn't* outdated.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:45:50 +0000
From: Marja (marja.viita luukku.com)
Subject: Which anthro is telling shit?
Debra Snell wrote:
)
) I have a beauty just dying to be posted. Six months is D-Day for
) breast feeding:
)
)
) "Babies should be fed on their mother's milk until they are six
) months old. If they are weaned later than this, they remain much too
) connected with the maternal forces of inheritance and become
) over-dependent upon these forces. We can readily understand this
) statement made by Rudolf Steiner."
)
) Conception Birth & Early Childhood, Norbert Glas, M.D.,
) Anthroposophic Press, Inc., Spring Valley, NY, 1972, pp.41-42.
)
On the following link there is a anthro-statement:
"Dr. Goebel explained there is nothing written by, nor are there
statements made by, Rudolf Steiner to support a baby's weaning from the
mother's milk at any age."
http://www.waldorfresources.org/readroom/features/weaning.html
Has someone on this list found such statement made by RS?
Here some quotations:
Question:
My child's eurythmist at school said that she heard from her
eurythmy-training instructor 20 years ago that Steiner said that babies
should be weaned starting at 4 months of age. My child's teacher said
that she attended a lecture during her Waldorf teacher training where
the speaker said that Waldorf teachers should discourage a mother from
breastfeeding after 9 months. I went to a lecture where the doctor said
stop when the child walks. Which of them is right?
RSF:
You could hear differences of opinion ranging from "begin weaning" to
"completely stop breastfeeding" at 6 months/9 months/12months/when the
child begins walking; all depending on the Anthroposophical physician to
whom you are listening. A couple of USA Anthroposophical physicians
maintain that babies should be immediately weaned upon eruption of the
first baby tooth, even if the child is born with a tooth as some babies
are! At times a physician, nurse, curative eurythmist, remedial
education teacher, Waldorf teacher, Anthroposophist, and so on, will
even attempt a direct quote from Dr. Rudolf Steiner which supports their
particular view. But, no direct quotes or writings attributable to
Steiner have been found that support any sort of claim that
breastfeeding should cease at any specific time.
Dr. Goebel, a pediatrician at the Anthroposophical hospital in Herdecke,
Germany, for many years, had formerly advised weaning babies by 6
months. Such recommendations are now retracted.
Dr. Goebel explained there is nothing written by, nor are there
statements made by, Rudolf Steiner to support a baby's weaning from the
mother's milk at any age. "We no longer tell the mothers when to wean
their babies. The mothers have taught us." Dr. Goebel's retirement is a
loss to babies everywhere.
Although "Kinder Sprech Stunde" is
Portions of the above were published as "Anthroposophical Medicine,
Breastfeeding and Weaning" in the November 1999 issue of "Waldorf
Without Walls" and appear with the permission of the publisher, Barbara
Dewey.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 12:08:44 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: anthro view of breastfeeding
Lisa, you wrote,
) As someone who nursed her older girl for more than two years, I was
)shocked when I learned that Waldorf did not support this kind of thing.
A woman encountered my wife Eleanor nursing 2-year-old David (later
Waldorf student) in a ladies room. She asked "how long can you nurse
them?" Eleanor replied "Till they go away to college."
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 12:12:38 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: anthro view of breastfeeding
)Lisa: Steiner taught -- and
)) they believe -- that during sleep, people's souls (or whatever the right
)) word is!) leave their bodies.
)
)Sharon: It's "astral body". Steiner taught that the astral body leaves the
)sleeping physical body (in bed) and winds its way out into the cosmos to
)drink forces of planetary beings, returning when the body awakes. The Astral
)body leaves the physical body upon death and whirls about in the cosmos
)looking for suitable parents once you decide to reincarnate. It looks like a
)bell facing downwards. It fully incarnates in your physical body during
)puberty.
My understanding is that in sleep the I and the astral body roam the
spiritual world while the etheric and physical bodies remain behind.
-Dan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 12:02:10 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Dan - Was - Percedol - Waldorf Preschool
At 11:53 AM -0400 5/15/02, JK wrote:
)During my orientation meeting, the DCP (day care provider) mentioned Weleda
)- and suggested I might have heard that Suzanne Sommers was using it for
)cancer therapy.
Yes, it was mentioned in the press that Somers used Iscador, a Weleda
product designed by Steiner.
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1728.76371
)The DCP said it was recommended for boosting immunity. I am
)pretty sure she was referring to the Iscador - I will clarify this. I told
)them in no uncertain terms I did not want my babies getting any dietary
)supplements/ Weleda products. They do use arnica topically for bruises -
)that's fine with me.
Try to find out, gently, what it is they are recommending for the
children. Understand that if you are perceived as questioning or not
trusting you'll either be ostracized or jollied along (depending on
how badly they need your patronage). Your child will be given
medications without your knowledge or permission if you are percieved
to be a problem.
)The DCP recommended her pediatrician, whom she says is a regular doctor but
)also an anthroposophist. She also recommended her homeopathic doctor.
Waldorf schools are the principal source of business for
Anthroposophical physicians.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 15:34:54 -0400
From: "King, Jennifer S" (JKING1 ORA.FDA.GOV)
Subject: RE: breastfeeding, anthro style
Grrrrr!!! My hackles shoot straight up when I hear this kind of thing!
Especially the suggestion that nursing boys is somehow different than
nursing girls - as if there were some sort of Oedipal component involved.
How sad that that woman took this kooky doctor's word as gospel! Even the
AAP, a conservative group IMO, recommends breastfeeding for at least for a
full year and as long thereafter as mother/ child want.
I switched pediatricians because mine was encouraging me to "sleep train" my
babies, and a couple of months ago told me I should wean them.
I was drawn to Waldorf because of the outward appearance/ aesthetic. But I
have enough sense to know there is no Utopia, no Shangri La, no Promised
Land there.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lisa Ercolano [mailto:momof2gals mindspring.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 12:03 PM
To: waldorf-critics
Subject: re: breastfeeding, anthro style
Jennifer says:
Steiner is very old and outdated, to say the least. But also, I wonder how
much of the teachings are cultural?
Lisa: I think you have hit the nail on the head, so to speak. Steiner's
ideas *are* very "old and outdated," and, in many ways, very Germanic. He
was undoubtedly a man of his time.
What is frightening to me (as someone who had her child in a Waldorf
school for almost six years!) is that Waldorf teachers do not and will not
acknowledge that. They refuse to say (and even to believe, I imagine!) that
any of Steiner's ideas or teachings are outdated, however much those ideas
and notions conflict with more modern and enlightened views on human
development, biology and physiology and psychology. (The most they will
admit is "some of Steiner is difficult," and that is usually said in
response to queries about Steiner's racist and anti-Semitic statements.)
I once attended a parent evening at our former Waldorf school during
which an anthro doctor (an MD with anthro training) spoke about the harm
caused by breastfeeding a child longer than six months. He went on to say
that it was particularly harmful to nurse boy children longer than that.
"Oh, no!" gasped a young woman sitting next to me. "Oh, no!"
I asked her what was the matter.
"But I nursed my son until he was 10 months old!" she gasped, actual
tears springing into her eyes. "I was trying to do the right thing, and now
I have harmed him. I have to talk to that doctor right now!"
I tried to reassure her, but she was clearly in knots about this. She
sat almost on the edge of her seat until the talk was over, and then sprang
up and ran over to the doctor.
It's ironic that so many people who believe in attachment parenting,
extended breastfeeding, the family bed, natural fibers and food, etc. flock
to Waldorf, when much of that is not what Waldorf is about at all!
Did you know that Steiner taught that young babies should NOT be carried
around on the mother's body all day? That's right. Anthros teach that young
infants should be wrapped and kept in their cribs/bassinets, etc. with very
little stimulation in the early months.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:08:15 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Dan - Was - Percedol - Waldorf Preschool
on 5/16/02 12:02 PM, Dan Dugan at dan dandugan.com wrote:
)
) Yes, it was mentioned in the press that Somers used Iscador, a Weleda
) product designed by Steiner.
Alexander Roob wrote in his book Alchemy and Mysticism that Paracelcus'
(1493-1541)..."prodigious body of work contains both numerous instructions
for the manufacture of pharmaceutical preparations on a vegetable and
metallic basis and a practically inexhaustible wealth of natural mystical
concepts in the spheres of astral magic, the Cabala and Christian mysticism.
Dressing these up in highly individual "bombastic" linguistic creations did
nothing to reduce their wide dissemination. These writings would exert an
influence for centuries, extending from the speculative interpreters of
alchemy, from Valentin Weigel, the Rosicrucians and Jacob Bohme, to the
Romantics and modern branches of anthroposophy and theosophy." (14-15 The
Hermetic Museum: Alchemy and Mysticism, Alexander Roob, Taschen 1997).
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:16:07 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: anthro view of breastfeeding
on 5/16/02 12:12 PM, Dan Dugan at dan dandugan.com wrote:
)
) My understanding is that in sleep the I and the astral body roam the
) spiritual world while the etheric and physical bodies remain behind.
Sharon: Yes, I gathered the same thing, but I don't think the I always goes
out into the cosmos, just sometimes.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:28:38 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Fletcher
on 5/16/02 12:00 PM, Marja at marja.viita luukku.com wrote:
)
) mysplum wrote:
)
)) Marja, if you haven't already seen it, you must get a hold of a book
)) called
)) Art Inspired By Rudolf Steiner, John Fletcher, Mercury Arts Publications
)) 1987.
)
) I have not seen it. I suppose that book is not available in my country.
) Could You give me some good quotations from the book. I found some
) photos from book at PLANS-pages.
)
) I found interesting link about Fletcher:
) http://www.saltoun.plus.com/death/index.htm
Sharon: I don't think your John Fletcher is the same man, though I could be
wrong. The book is large and full of great pictures in color! Pictures of
Steiner's Rosicrucian temples and Apocalyptic seals. Ask your library to see
if they can track down a copy. Do you have that service where you live? If
you are interested in Steiner it is a wonderful book to see. I often quote
from it and will send some quotes your way soon.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 23:01:04 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Steiner and the far right
Hello critics,
I found an interesting piece the other day that offers an appreciative brief
overview of Steiner from the perspective of the modern racist far right.
It's a review of a new pamphlet (which I haven't seen) on Steiner written by
conspiracy theorist Kerry Bolton. The review is by Troy Southgate, a major
figure in the neofascist "Third Position" movement. The word "volkisch"
refers to the nationalist-populist movements in German-speaking Europe
during Steiner's day. I think this piece reveals much about why Steiner
remains an attractive figure among a broad swath of radical rightists and
racists today.
Peter S.
http://obsidian-blade.com/synthesis/reviews/bolton-rudolph.htm
"Rudolph Steiner & the Mystique of Blood and Soil:
The Volkisch Views of the Founder of Anthroposophy
By Kerry Bolton
Reviewed by Troy Southgate
Rudolf Steiner & The Mystique of Blood & Soil: The Volkisch Views of the
Founder of Anthroposophy by Kerry Bolton. Available from Renaissance Press,
P.O. Box 1627, Paraparaumu Beach, New Zealand. Paper cover, 16pp. Price
$NZ20 inc. postage.
HAVING studied H.P. Blavatskyís The Secret Doctrine to a certain extent, as
well as the development and significance of the Theosophical Society, I for
one was particularly pleased to receive a booklet on Steiner. I had, for
some time, rather dismissively regarded this individual as being little more
than a guru of the liberal New Age Movement. It now appears that Steiner not
only had much in common with Blavatskyís own pronouncements concerning the
root races of mankind but also took things one step further by openly
alluding to the inherent differences between them.
Kerry Bolton unearths Steinerís links to the philosophical elite and men
like Goethe, Herder, Haeckel and Nietzsche, following the biological thread
of racialism through to the very beginnings of Ariosophy and Franz von
Liebenfelsí New Templars. Steinerís thoughts on Race and the unique
qualities of the Aryan psyche are explored in depth, with the author quoting
at some length from works such as The Destinies of Individuals and of
Nations [1915], Materialism and the Task of Athroposophy [1921], Spiritual
Science As a Foundation for Social Forms [1920] and many others. Steiner
himself is shown to have worked alongside Austrian nationalists promoting
folkish unity; to have emphasised the Nordic Race as the perfect expression
of mankind and the one bearing the most potential for the ongoing process of
biological evolution; to have developed a planetary system alluding to the
innate qualities of each race; and to have warned against racial
miscegenation and the loss of Aryan Manís spiritual potential.
The Third Reich, however, denounced Steinerís teachings, although it was
probably wary of his growing influence. The author points out that, at the
same time, many Nazi luminaries - among them Rudolf Hess and those in the
NSDAPís ecological wing such as Siefert, Ludovici, Haase and Walther Darre
himself - began to warm to his ideas, particularly as the Anthroposophists
have always been committed to organic farming techniques.
Finally, just to re-emphasise the effect that Steinerís work has had on
racial nationalism and the concept of Blood and Soil, Bolton quotes from
Biehl & Staudenmaierís Ecofascism: Lessons From the German Experience, which
speaks of Anthroposophy thus: ìThis ideology mixes bizarre racialist
spiritual theory (which somewhat unsurprisingly concludes that European
whites are at the hierarchical scale of humanity) with concepts such as
ëbiodynamic farmingí, a form of organic agriculture which tries to foster a
more organic relationship between cultivator and soil.î
This booklet is very well researched and essential if one is to understand
the broad significance of our racial and spiritual heritage."
Rudolph Steiner
& the Mystique of Blood and Soil:
The Volkisch Views of the Founder of Anthroposophy
By Kerry Bolton
Reviewed by Troy Southgate
Main | Articles | Interviews | Poetry | Songs | Reviews | Links | Email
Rudolf Steiner & The Mystique of Blood & Soil: The Volkisch Views of the
Founder of Anthroposophy by Kerry Bolton. Available from Renaissance Press,
P.O. Box 1627, Paraparaumu Beach, New Zealand. Paper cover, 16pp. Price
$NZ20 inc. postage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
H AVING studied H.P. Blavatskyís The Secret Doctrine to a certain extent, as
well as the development and significance of the Theosophical Society, I for
one was particularly pleased to receive a booklet on Steiner. I had, for
some time, rather dismissively regarded this individual as being little more
than a guru of the liberal New Age Movement. It now appears that Steiner not
only had much in common with Blavatskyís own pronouncements concerning the
root races of mankind but also took things one step further by openly
alluding to the inherent differences between them.
Kerry Bolton unearths Steinerís links to the philosophical elite and men
like Goethe, Herder, Haeckel and Nietzsche, following the biological thread
of racialism through to the very beginnings of Ariosophy and Franz von
Liebenfelsí New Templars. Steinerís thoughts on Race and the unique
qualities of the Aryan psyche are explored in depth, with the author quoting
at some length from works such as The Destinies of Individuals and of
Nations [1915], Materialism and the Task of Athroposophy [1921], Spiritual
Science As a Foundation for Social Forms [1920] and many others. Steiner
himself is shown to have worked alongside Austrian nationalists promoting
folkish unity; to have emphasised the Nordic Race as the perfect expression
of mankind and the one bearing the most potential for the ongoing process of
biological evolution; to have developed a planetary system alluding to the
innate qualities of each race; and to have warned against racial
miscegenation and the loss of Aryan Manís spiritual potential.
The Third Reich, however, denounced Steinerís teachings, although it was
probably wary of his growing influence. The author points out that, at the
same time, many Nazi luminaries - among them Rudolf Hess and those in the
NSDAPís ecological wing such as Siefert, Ludovici, Haase and Walther Darre
himself - began to warm to his ideas, particularly as the Anthroposophists
have always been committed to organic farming techniques.
Finally, just to re-emphasise the effect that Steinerís work has had on
racial nationalism and the concept of Blood and Soil, Bolton quotes from
Biehl & Staudenmaierís Ecofascism: Lessons From the German Experience, which
speaks of Anthroposophy thus: ìThis ideology mixes bizarre racialist
spiritual theory (which somewhat unsurprisingly concludes that European
whites are at the hierarchical scale of humanity) with concepts such as
ëbiodynamic farmingí, a form of organic agriculture which tries to foster a
more organic relationship between cultivator and soil.î
This booklet is very well researched and essential if one is to understand
the broad significance of our racial and spiritual heritage.
_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:43:43 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Fletcher
Marja:
) ) I found interesting link about Fletcher:
)) http://www.saltoun.plus.com/death/index.htm
)
)Sharon: I don't think your John Fletcher is the same man, though I could be
)wrong. The book is large and full of great pictures in color! Pictures of
)Steiner's Rosicrucian temples and Apocalyptic seals.
It most certainly is, the site mentions his authorship of the book,
and he left money to the Anthroposophical Society and Christian
Community.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 06:28:45 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Fletcher
on 5/16/02 8:43 PM, Dan Dugan at dan dandugan.com wrote:
) Marja:
))) I found interesting link about Fletcher:
))) http://www.saltoun.plus.com/death/index.htm
))
)) Sharon: I don't think your John Fletcher is the same man, though I could be
)) wrong. The book is large and full of great pictures in color! Pictures of
)) Steiner's Rosicrucian temples and Apocalyptic seals.
)
) It most certainly is, the site mentions his authorship of the book,
) and he left money to the Anthroposophical Society and Christian
) Community.
Sharon: Amazing! Thanks Marja and Dan. Where do I go to find that?
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 734
-- Topica Digest --
RE: Dan - Was - Percedol - Waldorf Preschool
By snell gv.net
Outdated?
By marja.viita luukku.com
RE: Fletcher
By marja.viita luukku.com
Panorama-view
By marja.viita luukku.com
RE: Fletcher
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 11:33:16 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: RE: Dan - Was - Percedol - Waldorf Preschool
)At 11:53 AM -0400 5/15/02, JK wrote:
))During my orientation meeting, the DCP (day care provider) mentioned Weleda
))- and suggested I might have heard that Suzanne Sommers was using it for
))cancer therapy.
)
)Yes, it was mentioned in the press that Somers used Iscador, a
)Weleda product designed by Steiner.
)
)http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1728.76371
)
))The DCP said it was recommended for boosting immunity. I am
))pretty sure she was referring to the Iscador - I will clarify this. I told
))them in no uncertain terms I did not want my babies getting any dietary
))supplements/ Weleda products. They do use arnica topically for bruises -
))that's fine with me.
)
)Try to find out, gently, what it is they are recommending for the
)children. Understand that if you are perceived as questioning or not
)trusting you'll either be ostracized or jollied along (depending on
)how badly they need your patronage). Your child will be given
)medications without your knowledge or permission if you are
)percieved to be a problem.
Debra:
My son was given "remedies" without my permission after I
specifically told the school, in writing, that they could not
administer *any* remedies to my kids. My son was old enough to tell
me and I flipped. No one was qualified to administer medication at
the school. This, folks, occurred at a public funded Waldorf Inspired
school. (sigh)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 21:04:03 +0000
From: Marja (marja.viita luukku.com)
Subject: Outdated?
Diana Winters wrote:
)
)I say, so what? Why listen to
) outdated advice and speculate what the man would say today? Follow the
) advice that *isn't* outdated.
I have asked anthros many times: "Which of Dr Steiner's statements are
outdated?" I haven't got any answer. Does anyone ever heard that anthros
has told even single RS-statement, which is outdated?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 21:12:40 +0000
From: Marja (marja.viita luukku.com)
Subject: RE: Fletcher
mysplum wrote:
) Sharon: Amazing! Thanks Marja and Dan. Where do I go to find that?
On the link-page it is mentioned:
"Why was John Fletcher's occupation given only as "Farming Operator
(retired)" when he was well known in his later years to be a writer and
publisher, having published two volumes of personal Memoirs as well as a
massive book "Art Inspired by Rudolf Steiner" and a number of other
titles ?"
Dan wrote:
"and he left money to the Anthroposophical Society and Christian
Community."
That I didn't notice, but I'm sure it is true.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 21:57:12 +0000
From: Marja (marja.viita luukku.com)
Subject: Panorama-view
mysplum wrote:
) Etheric body never leaves the Physical body while living on earth, only
) if
) you get a fright does it loosen.
The etheric body leaves only from the head if you are in serious danger.
Then you can see your life as panorama even if you are not dead.
Normally this happens only after the death.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 15:50:10 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Fletcher
At 9:12 PM +0000 5/17/02, Marja wrote:
)mysplum wrote:
)
) ) Sharon: Amazing! Thanks Marja and Dan. Where do I go to find that?
)
)On the link-page it is mentioned:
)"Why was John Fletcher's occupation given only as "Farming Operator
)(retired)" when he was well known in his later years to be a writer and
)publisher, having published two volumes of personal Memoirs as well as a
)massive book "Art Inspired by Rudolf Steiner" and a number of other
)titles ?"
)
)Dan wrote:
)"and he left money to the Anthroposophical Society and Christian
)Community."
)
)That I didn't notice, but I'm sure it is true.
That's in the scans of his will that are on the site.
-Dan
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 735
-- Topica Digest --
Admin: web counter 86,761
By dan dandugan.com
1st grade stories
By deerone mindspring.com
Re: 1st grade stories
By momof2gals mindspring.com
RE: 1st grade stories
By kris magikon.com.pl
Re: 1st grade stories
By deerone mindspring.com
Re: 1st grade stories
By deerone mindspring.com
Re: 1st grade stories
By deerone mindspring.com
Re: 1st grade stories
By dan dandugan.com
Re: 1st grade stories
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: 1st grade stories
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: 1st grade stories
By snell gv.net
Re: 1st grade stories
By firefly tpg.com.au
Re: 1st grade stories
By snell gv.net
projective geometry
By firefly tpg.com.au
Re: projective geometry
By dan dandugan.com
Re: 1st grade stories
By deerone mindspring.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 14:51:21 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: web counter 86,761
On May 12, 2002, the PLANS web site had registered 86,761 visitors
since August 12, 1996. (Visitors, not hits, repeats on the same day
are not counted. Thanks, Web-Counter http://www.digits.com.)
We had 2228 visitors in the last 30 days, averaging 74 per day.
Hit counters give much higher but less meaningful numbers, because
they count every page and image viewed. The hits on our site in the
month of April totaled 140,208, averaging 4677 per day.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 18:15:46 -0400
From: "Karen Sandburg" (deerone mindspring.com)
Subject: 1st grade stories
Dan, I just removed my child from Waldorf after the first year. How do I get
a copy of the stories that have been told to my child throughout this year.
She told me a couple of them today and I was upset. I want to know what the
stories are so that I can undo any influence that they might have had on
her.
Thanks, Karen
) ==^================================================================
)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 19:27:58 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
Dear Karen,
Welcome to the Waldorf critics list! Like me, a number of the folks here
have children who, at one time or another, attended Waldorf schools. If you
tell us what grade level your child completed, perhaps we can help you piece
together what stories were told to her.
My older daughter attended a Waldorf school (private) from nursery school
thru the first half of grade four, when we pulled her out. We found that
some of the most violent and misogynistic stories were told to her in the
nursery and kindergarten years.
Looking forward to assisting you,
Lisa
) Dan, I just removed my child from Waldorf after the first year. How do I get
) a copy of the stories that have been told to my child throughout this year.
) She told me a couple of them today and I was upset. I want to know what the
) stories are so that I can undo any influence that they might have had on
) her.
)
) Thanks, Karen
)) ==^================================================================
))
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 00:45:07 +0000
From: (kris magikon.com.pl)
Subject: RE: 1st grade stories
Dear Waldorf Critics,
I am newbie to this group, so please be lenient or just tell me frankly
if I do something wrong.
Our story with Waldorf and A. seems the weirdest to us, but I guess it
is just like many other.
Perhaps the weird thing in it was that we took our kids and went back,
after reading much of the stuff from the PLANS site and acknowledging
they were true. I am sure I'll be writing about it as much as possible
and makes sense whenever I find time.
Our boys attended the preschool and up to second and fourth grades in
Bielsko-Biala, Poland.
We all left Waldorf more than two years ago and still have not shaken it
off us.
Our kids were very much behind with all the syllabi, actually they could
hardly read and write.
I am quoting the "1st grade stories" response message because one of the
appaling things at the school was the hatred between boys and girls.
Much beyond the acceptable level. Now there is this mention of
"misogynistic stories". What can be hidden behind these abnormal
relations, we are not told of, that leads to them?
Looking forward to learning new things about what is hidden before
parents' eyes.
Kris
) If you
) tell us what grade level your child completed, perhaps we can help you
) piece
) together what stories were told to her.
)
) My older daughter attended a Waldorf school (private) from nursery
) school
) thru the first half of grade four, when we pulled her out. We found that
) some of the most violent and misogynistic stories were told to her in
) the
) nursery and kindergarten years.
)
) Looking forward to assisting you,
)
) Lisa
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 20:43:09 -0400
From: "Karen Sandburg" (deerone mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
My child completed the first grade. Please do respond back with the specific
stories and how I can get a compilation of them. Thanks
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
)
) Dear Karen,
)
) Welcome to the Waldorf critics list! Like me, a number of the folks here
) have children who, at one time or another, attended Waldorf schools. If
you
) tell us what grade level your child completed, perhaps we can help you
piece
) together what stories were told to her.
)
) My older daughter attended a Waldorf school (private) from nursery school
) thru the first half of grade four, when we pulled her out. We found that
) some of the most violent and misogynistic stories were told to her in the
) nursery and kindergarten years.
)
) Looking forward to assisting you,
)
) Lisa
)
)
)
)
)
)
) ) Dan, I just removed my child from Waldorf after the first year. How do I
get
) ) a copy of the stories that have been told to my child throughout this
year.
) ) She told me a couple of them today and I was upset. I want to know what
the
) ) stories are so that I can undo any influence that they might have had on
) ) her.
) )
) ) Thanks, Karen
) )) ==^================================================================
) ))
) )
) )
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 20:46:26 -0400
From: "Karen Sandburg" (deerone mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
Actually, though I just sent a message, it was the kindergarten and the
first grade that my child attended. I am removing her at the end of this
first grade year, which is in three weeks. A friend is removing her child
two weeks early and I am thinking of doing so as well.
My other question is, do the teachers in the kindergarden and first grade
all tell the same stories or is there discretion of some sort there. Thanks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
)
) Dear Karen,
)
) Welcome to the Waldorf critics list! Like me, a number of the folks here
) have children who, at one time or another, attended Waldorf schools. If
you
) tell us what grade level your child completed, perhaps we can help you
piece
) together what stories were told to her.
)
) My older daughter attended a Waldorf school (private) from nursery school
) thru the first half of grade four, when we pulled her out. We found that
) some of the most violent and misogynistic stories were told to her in the
) nursery and kindergarten years.
)
) Looking forward to assisting you,
)
) Lisa
)
)
)
)
)
)
) ) Dan, I just removed my child from Waldorf after the first year. How do I
get
) ) a copy of the stories that have been told to my child throughout this
year.
) ) She told me a couple of them today and I was upset. I want to know what
the
) ) stories are so that I can undo any influence that they might have had on
) ) her.
) )
) ) Thanks, Karen
) )) ==^================================================================
) ))
) )
) )
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 20:49:09 -0400
From: "Karen Sandburg" (deerone mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
Though my child just completed the first grade, she also went to
kindergarden. I would like to know if all teachers tell the same stories at
the same grade level or if there is some discretion. I may have accidently
sent this message twice though I think I just replied to you and not the
whole group on my second message. Thanks for your help.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
)
) Dear Karen,
)
) Welcome to the Waldorf critics list! Like me, a number of the folks here
) have children who, at one time or another, attended Waldorf schools. If
you
) tell us what grade level your child completed, perhaps we can help you
piece
) together what stories were told to her.
)
) My older daughter attended a Waldorf school (private) from nursery school
) thru the first half of grade four, when we pulled her out. We found that
) some of the most violent and misogynistic stories were told to her in the
) nursery and kindergarten years.
)
) Looking forward to assisting you,
)
) Lisa
)
)
)
)
)
)
) ) Dan, I just removed my child from Waldorf after the first year. How do I
get
) ) a copy of the stories that have been told to my child throughout this
year.
) ) She told me a couple of them today and I was upset. I want to know what
the
) ) stories are so that I can undo any influence that they might have had on
) ) her.
) )
) ) Thanks, Karen
) )) ==^================================================================
) ))
) )
) )
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 18:25:48 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
Karen, you asked,
)My other question is, do the teachers in the kindergarden and first grade
)all tell the same stories or is there discretion of some sort there. Thanks.
The choice of stories is up to the teacher, but I expect there are
Waldorf-traditional and customary stories that are -de rigeur-.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 22:41:36 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
Karen,
I believe that Waldorf teachers in every grade have some choice as to what
stories they tell the children in each grade level. What I have found via
sharing on this list and others, however, is that teachers at different
Waldorf schools do tend to tell the same or similar stories for first grade,
second, etc.
I am short of time right now, so I cannot post what I know of the stories
that were told to my daughters in kindergarten and first grade. I will get
back to you asap on this. I also encourage anyone else here to chime in.
Lisa
) Actually, though I just sent a message, it was the kindergarten and the
) first grade that my child attended. I am removing her at the end of this
) first grade year, which is in three weeks. A friend is removing her child
) two weeks early and I am thinking of doing so as well.
)
) My other question is, do the teachers in the kindergarden and first grade
) all tell the same stories or is there discretion of some sort there. Thanks.
) ----- Original Message -----
) From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
) To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
) Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 7:27 PM
) Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
)
)
))
)) Dear Karen,
))
)) Welcome to the Waldorf critics list! Like me, a number of the folks here
)) have children who, at one time or another, attended Waldorf schools. If
) you
)) tell us what grade level your child completed, perhaps we can help you
) piece
)) together what stories were told to her.
))
)) My older daughter attended a Waldorf school (private) from nursery school
)) thru the first half of grade four, when we pulled her out. We found that
)) some of the most violent and misogynistic stories were told to her in the
)) nursery and kindergarten years.
))
)) Looking forward to assisting you,
))
)) Lisa
))
))
))
))
))
))
)) ) Dan, I just removed my child from Waldorf after the first year. How do I
) get
)) ) a copy of the stories that have been told to my child throughout this
) year.
)) ) She told me a couple of them today and I was upset. I want to know what
) the
)) ) stories are so that I can undo any influence that they might have had on
)) ) her.
)) )
)) ) Thanks, Karen
)) )) ==^================================================================
)) ))
)) )
)) )
))
))
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 02:48:45 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
)Though my child just completed the first grade, she also went to
)kindergarden. I would like to know if all teachers tell the same )stories
)at the same grade level or if there is some discretion.
Hi Karen, I think you should ask the teacher directly what stories she told.
Just be firm and ask her to write the whole list out for you, by date.
Usually they tell the same story several times, for a week or even longer.
Yes, they have some discretion, so there's no way for anyone here to tell
you definitely what stories she heard.
Here's a few possibilities - this is from Rahima Baldwin's book You Are Your
Child's First Teacher - a Waldorf book written for parents rather than
teachers, and she tells what fairy tales she thinks are appropriate for
different ages. But realize this is just a rough guide. Your daughter's
teacher probably told some of these, but likely this list is not exact, so
you need to ask.
This list is by age, and this is complicated by the fact that since your
daughter was in Waldorf kindergarten as well as first grade, she may have
heard stories for several age groups, since the kindergartens are mixed-age.
But here it is FWIW.
3-year-olds:
Sweet Porridge
Goldilocks
Little Tuppens
Little Louse and Little Flea
The Turnip
The Mitten
Little Madam
Gingerbread Man
The Johnny Cake
The Hungry Cat
4- and 5-year-olds:
Billy Goats Gruff
Three Little Pigs
The Wolf and the Seven Kids
The Pancake Mill
Mashenka and the Bear
The Shoemaker and the Elves
5- and 6-year-olds:
Star Money
The Frog Prince
Mother Holle
Little Red Cap
The Bremen Town Musicians
The Golden Goose
Spindle, Shuttle and Needle
The Hut in the Forest
The Queen Bee
The Snow Maiden
The Seven Ravens
Snow White and Rose Red
Little Briar Rose
The Donkey
Rumpelstiltskin
Snow White and the Seven Dwarves
Hansel and Gretel
6-year-olds or first graders:
Jorinda and Joringel
Brother and Sister
Rapunzel
Most of these are Grimms. You might also ask about puppet plays. Looking
over that list I remember several of those were performed as puppet plays in
our kindergartens, rather than just told.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 20:21:18 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
)Actually, though I just sent a message, it was the kindergarten and the
)first grade that my child attended. I am removing her at the end of this
)first grade year, which is in three weeks. A friend is removing her child
)two weeks early and I am thinking of doing so as well.
)
)My other question is, do the teachers in the kindergarden and first grade
)all tell the same stories or is there discretion of some sort there. Thanks.
Hi Karen,
There is an entire collection to choose from. Many Waldorf teachers
pick and choose depending on the moral lesson they decide their class
needs. 'Interpretation of Fairy Tales' is a good book to pick up from
The Antroposophic Press. For the life of me, I can't remember if it
was written by Steiner one of his Definers. The Anthroposophic Press
is on-line at: http://www.anthropress.com. You could ask your
daughter what stories she was told and get an eye-full in that book.
So what made you decide Waldorf wasn't for your family?
Welcome!
Debra
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 13:30:15 +1000
From: "Deb" (firefly tpg.com.au)
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
Hi all,
It's been ages since I contributed anything to this list, but enjoy reading
the comments and arguments presented.
My son now in year 11 at a Steiner school in Sydney (Australia) brought home
the newsletter last week and I was surprised to find the following. Over the
next 6 weeks parents are being invited to attend classes to learn what the
children are studying in 'main lesson'.
I enrolled my son in Year 8 (2nd year of high school) so he wasn't exposed
to the primary years & fairy tales. However, one the 1st year teachers is
presenting the parents with a lecture/discussion about 'fairy tales'. If I
manage to go along I will post some info for the group.
regards Deb
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 21:11:55 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
)Hi all,
)
)It's been ages since I contributed anything to this list, but enjoy reading
)the comments and arguments presented.
Well I am glad some people find this entertaining. Some of us take
this stuff a little too serious, I'm afraid.
)
)My son now in year 11 at a Steiner school in Sydney (Australia) brought home
)the newsletter last week and I was surprised to find the following. Over the
)next 6 weeks parents are being invited to attend classes to learn what the
)children are studying in 'main lesson'.
Wonderful! I hope you go. Please try to find out a little about
'Projective Geometry.'
)
)I enrolled my son in Year 8 (2nd year of high school) so he wasn't exposed
)to the primary years & fairy tales. However, one the 1st year teachers is
)presenting the parents with a lecture/discussion about 'fairy tales'. If I
)manage to go along I will post some info for the group.
)
)regards Deb
How fun! Wish I could go too. Let us know all about it.
-debra
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 14:47:56 +1000
From: "Deb" (firefly tpg.com.au)
Subject: projective geometry
Projective Geometry is the geometrical interpretation of linear algebra, and
it describes the mathematics of perspective drawing. In projective geometry
we deduce facts in geometry (about points, lines, conics, and so on) using
methods from algebra (vector spaces and linear transformations, groups and
group actions). The aim of the course is to teach the viewpoint and
reasoning methods used in projective geometry. Later, these will be used to
investigate the hyperbolic plane and the geometry of lines in space.
For your perusal, the basics of projective geometry from a Steiner
perspective:
http://www.anth.org.uk/NCT/basics.htm
If you've a maths bent, Stanford Uni:
http://robotics.stanford.edu/~birch/projective/
From a uni student perspective, 'Understanding Projective Geometry':
http://www.math.toronto.edu/mathnet/plain/questionCorner/projective.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 00:34:04 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: projective geometry
Deb wrote:
)Projective Geometry is the geometrical interpretation of linear algebra, and
)it describes the mathematics of perspective drawing. In projective geometry
)we deduce facts in geometry (about points, lines, conics, and so on) using
)methods from algebra (vector spaces and linear transformations, groups and
)group actions). The aim of the course is to teach the viewpoint and
)reasoning methods used in projective geometry. Later, these will be used to
)investigate the hyperbolic plane and the geometry of lines in space.
)
)
)For your perusal, the basics of projective geometry from a Steiner
)perspective:
)
)http://www.anth.org.uk/NCT/basics.htm
)
)If you've a maths bent, Stanford Uni:
)
)http://robotics.stanford.edu/~birch/projective/
)
)From a uni student perspective, 'Understanding Projective Geometry':
)
)http://www.math.toronto.edu/mathnet/plain/questionCorner/projective.html
It's important in Waldorf because it's supposed to link the spiritual
and scientific worlds:
"The mode of thinking and imagining provided by modern projective
synthetic geometry, and the ideas to which this mathematical field
has given rise, provide a most fruitful way of educating thinking
towards an understanding of the etheric world as described by Rudolf
Steiner. A direct approach is thus provided towards an understanding
in scientific terms of the forces at work wherever life processes
reveal their forms. We become capable of observing the invisible. "
[Whicher, Olive. The Heart of the Matter: Discovering the Laws of
Living Organisms. London: Temple Lodge, 1997, pp. 17-18]
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 06:34:18 -0400
From: "Karen Sandburg" (deerone mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
Is there any one book that has all the fairy tales in it. I tried to find
"interpretation of fairy tales" on the site but could not find it. Are there
a series of books that could be read. Thanks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Diana Winters" (Winters_Diana hotmail.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
)
)
)
) )Though my child just completed the first grade, she also went to
) )kindergarden. I would like to know if all teachers tell the same )stories
) )at the same grade level or if there is some discretion.
)
) Hi Karen, I think you should ask the teacher directly what stories she
told.
) Just be firm and ask her to write the whole list out for you, by date.
) Usually they tell the same story several times, for a week or even longer.
) Yes, they have some discretion, so there's no way for anyone here to tell
) you definitely what stories she heard.
)
) Here's a few possibilities - this is from Rahima Baldwin's book You Are
Your
) Child's First Teacher - a Waldorf book written for parents rather than
) teachers, and she tells what fairy tales she thinks are appropriate for
) different ages. But realize this is just a rough guide. Your daughter's
) teacher probably told some of these, but likely this list is not exact, so
) you need to ask.
)
) This list is by age, and this is complicated by the fact that since your
) daughter was in Waldorf kindergarten as well as first grade, she may have
) heard stories for several age groups, since the kindergartens are
mixed-age.
) But here it is FWIW.
)
)
) 3-year-olds:
)
) Sweet Porridge
) Goldilocks
) Little Tuppens
) Little Louse and Little Flea
) The Turnip
) The Mitten
) Little Madam
) Gingerbread Man
) The Johnny Cake
) The Hungry Cat
)
) 4- and 5-year-olds:
)
) Billy Goats Gruff
) Three Little Pigs
) The Wolf and the Seven Kids
) The Pancake Mill
) Mashenka and the Bear
) The Shoemaker and the Elves
)
) 5- and 6-year-olds:
)
) Star Money
) The Frog Prince
) Mother Holle
) Little Red Cap
) The Bremen Town Musicians
) The Golden Goose
) Spindle, Shuttle and Needle
) The Hut in the Forest
) The Queen Bee
) The Snow Maiden
) The Seven Ravens
) Snow White and Rose Red
) Little Briar Rose
) The Donkey
) Rumpelstiltskin
) Snow White and the Seven Dwarves
) Hansel and Gretel
)
) 6-year-olds or first graders:
)
) Jorinda and Joringel
) Brother and Sister
) Rapunzel
)
) Most of these are Grimms. You might also ask about puppet plays. Looking
) over that list I remember several of those were performed as puppet plays
in
) our kindergartens, rather than just told.
) Diana
)
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
)
)
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 736
-- Topica Digest --
This is not widely known
By marja.viita luukku.com
Re: 1st grade stories
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: 1st grade stories
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: 1st grade stories
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: This is not widely known
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: 1st grade stories
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: 1st grade stories
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 11:56:33 +0000
From: Marja (marja.viita luukku.com)
Subject: This is not widely known
There is no point to know, which fairy-tales are read to children. The
point is to know what those fairy-tales are meaning according to
anthros. And reason, why anthros are reading those stories.
This is not widely known: Anthros believe that old germanic folk-tales
are telling old historical events of spiritual and materialistic world.
Those events have been passed through milleniums in folk-tales.
Especially in germanic folk-tales, which brothers of Grimm collected up.
When german fairy-tales are translated in different languages, there has
sometimes happened mistakes. Then the real meaning has changed. The
child knows/remembers of his/her earlier incarnations, what really then
happened. If now happenings are told in fairy tales wrongly due to bad
translation, the child will be confused and nightmares will come to the
sleep. This happens fg. if "shopkeeper" is translated to "rich man".
Different kind fairy-tales are told on different age-groups, because
those are telling to children about different epochs according to
anthroposophical periods.
Germanic folktales are not only for children. Adult anthros are also
reading and studying them at their study groups.
Anthroposophist Friedel Lenz has written very interesting book:
Bildsprache der M”rchen (The Figurative Language of Fairy-Tales). I
don't know if it is published in english. In that book she explains very
carefully the real meaning of each happening and each character in
traditional fairy tails. There is very spesific meaning for each bird,
for each, person, for each occupation, for each scenery etc.
That Lenz's book is often mentioned, when anthros are discussing about
fairy tales.
Freidel Lenz is/was wife of priest of Christian Community. Friedel Lenz
has written also other books about esoteric meaning of fairy tales.
Maybe someone could try to find if they are translated in english. That
book is in german at my table. Unluckyly my german is so bad that I
can't comment the book.
On PLANS pages is also mentioned following book (I don't believe that it
gives as esoteric information as Lenz's books):
"Wilkinson, Roy
The Interpretation of Fairy Tales."
"However, higher powers are at hand. The huntsman is there as the wise
power of destiny. The scissors are signs of his awakened
consciousness."Ý
"Red Riding Hood is saved. So is her grandmother who is refreshed by the
bread and wine. It is an act of Holy Communion." (p. 19)
"Wilkinson can be counted on to demonstrate how narrow the
Steiner-dominated mind can be. A teacher training handbook. Fair Oaks,
CA: Rudolf Steiner College Press, 1993."
I haven't read that book and it isn't available for me. Could someone
comment that book?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 08:41:18 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
on 5/19/02 7:48 PM, Diana Winters at Winters_Diana hotmail.com wrote:
)) Though my child just completed the first grade, she also went to
)) kindergarden. I would like to know if all teachers tell the same )stories
)) at the same grade level or if there is some discretion.
Sharon: Hi Karen, there is some discretion as Waldorf is an "individual
spiritual path" for teachers to tread, however, I believe that certain
stories are told to all children. Unfortunately, in kindergarten, nothing is
written so it's hard to get a fix on what was told. Here are some of the
stories that my daughter relayed to me because she was scared by them: She
was taught that she has a devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other.
She learned a story about a man who ate so much that he exploded. Also
another in which a man married a wife who was so bad that he killed her. He
then proceeded to marry quite a few others which he killed. Then the
original wife came back and killed him because she didn't go to heaven.
There was another grizzly tale about a man who had his head chopped off,
told at nap time. I asked the reason for the violent ones, I was told they
are "archetypal" whatever that means. Also lots of stories about gnomes and
fairies. Lisa's daughter also heard the one about the man killing his wives.
At first I thought it might have been Blue Beard, but it wasn't. Lisa's
daughter used to cry while walking in the garden because she didn't want to
tread on any fairies. One of her daughters, in kindergarten, told Lisa to be
quiet when she was putting her to bed because "Michael is in the room". My
daughter drew a picture at home of demons, I had never told her about such
things.
In first grade my daughter drew a picture of gnomes mining in a gold mine.
Steiner taught his adult followers that gnomes can be found in a metal mine.
She also drew a picture of Michael and the dragon with angel looking on (one
of Steiner's apocalyptic Seven Seals). There are many pictures of angels in
her first grade lesson book. The tale of a man on a mountain is another
special "archetypal" Waldorf story. She drew a picture of the Advent Spiral
and wrote "The first of Advent to light is the light of Stones, Seashells,
Crystals and Bones". Children are usually taught about a worm changing into
a butterfly because Steiner said teachers must first present the concept of
reincarnation in this way, to young children. When they are older, they
learn more specifically about reincarnation. Here's a quote from first grade
from our ex-school: Out of heaven into birth from the stars to the earth I
have flown". The Rainbow Bridge is told at each birthday celebration and
seems to appear in most schools. The rainbow bridge is the bridge of
reincarnation. Also many alchemical pictures of Sun and Moon. She was also
taught about microcosmic man / man the pentagram. Lots of star magic
throughout the years.
In second grade it was Saints and Holy People, St. Wulfric and the bread,
Amarita hugging the trees, St. Nicholas, the plant animal and human kingdoms
(which have major esoteric meaning in Steiner's doctrine, plant kingdom =
his future Jupiter, animal = future Venus, and Human = future Vulcan). Some
quotes from my daughter's book: "I will search for the master of greatest
might. I will search for the star of brightest light. I will work to achieve
the highest goal. Courageous and with reverant soul. I will serve." (St.
Christopher) "Saint Zita had a heart so pure. Pagono's [took her] servents
from her. She gave to the poor and the frozen ones. God's love enwrapped her
like the Sun". "Santa Lucia with crown of candles bright, upon her head she
carries, in early morning light" (picture of a cross with light radiating
out). Lots on "light" (in Steiner's doctrine, Christ the Sun Spirit is
Light.
Third grade Old Testament stories, some of the violent horrible ones such
as Isaaic being put on the alter by his father who was going to plunge his
knife into his son. Also, in third grade they all usually learn that "the
body is the house of the spirit", and that the spirit can go in and out of
the house. Here's a quote on the same subject, same school, different
teacher and pupil "God rules with a lawful might. And out of this home, with
heaven's help From water, fire, air and earth, Is fashioned a house for each
soul to dwell in from the time of birth".
Fourth grade, Norse Myths because the Norse were the forerunners of the
Teutonic Age, the prehistory of the Aryans. The Odin myth which conveys a
sense of how magic requires one to live an ascetic life, magical force
emanates from one who masters the body, performs heroic disciplines and
strengthens the soul in order to gain access to hidden energies. Quote from
a lesson on Lodinfur's Words of Wisdom: "Be careful in getting up at night,
look out for wtches and do not pay head to their promises, seek out a wise
one and learn his healing charms, use no angry words, keep your promises, be
generous, do not take part in wickedness, do not despise the old, mock no
one, remember that like cures like in illness".
Fifth grade is an initiation into Steiner's idea of the evolution of the
Aryan, children learn religious myths from India, Persia, Babylon, Egypt,
Crete and Greece, such as the Indian Wise one Buddha, the Persian god Ahura
Mazdao, the prophet Zarathustra and the Egyptian deities Osiris and Isis.
These stories are mystery initiations, both for pupil and teacher. Some
quotes from my daughter's school: "In ancient Persia, men knew that the
physical world was not the everlasting world but that they were to work to
transform it and bring it down to the real world". "In ancient India men
looked upon this world as unreal. They longed to return to the real world of
heaven where all was real and everlasting. They considered life on earth to
be a time in which to prepare for a return to Brahma. Prayer of the Hindu
saints: From the unreal lead me to the real. From darkness lead me to
light".
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 12:56:45 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
)Is there any one book that has all the fairy tales in it.
Not a specifically Waldorf book, but they swear by the Grimms anthology, I
think it's the Random House edition. It has to be the original, unaltered,
unedited Grimms - they never use modernized updates or revisions (i.e., most
of the fairy tale collections out there). If you want to be sure which
version of a tale she heard, make sure you are checking the original
Grimmms.
Diana
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 13:11:47 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
I wrote:
)Not a specifically Waldorf book, but they swear by the Grimms anthology, I
)think it's the Random House edition.
Correction - it's the Pantheon edition. (I'm certain of this because I
checked my copy; at the time I was careful to buy the "right" edition.)
There's a Steiner book called The Poetry and Meaning of Fairy Tales and
another called The Interpretation of Fairy Tales (not to be confused with
the book by the same title by Roy Wilkinson). Rahima Baldwin also recommends
The Wisdom of Fairy Tales by Rudolf Meyer ("working out of the indications
of Rudolf Steiner").
Diana
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 13:23:08 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: This is not widely known
Marja wrote:
)There is no point to know, which fairy-tales are read to children. The
)point is to know what those fairy-tales are meaning according to
)anthros. And reason, why anthros are reading those stories.
Well, not to speak for Karen, but from Karen's point of view, I'd think
knowing which stories were told would be more important. She wants to know,
I think, what upset her daughter.
)This is not widely known: Anthros believe that old germanic folk-tales
)are telling old historical events of spiritual and materialistic world.
)Those events have been passed through milleniums in folk-tales.
)Especially in germanic folk-tales, which brothers of Grimm collected )up.
This is quite well known among the critics here. At each stage of the
curriculum, the stories, fables, and myths are supposed to correspond not
only to an actual stage of cosmic history, but also to the children's
current state of spiritual development (which the children are supposedly
recapitulating in their individual development).
What saves it for most of the kids is, it doesn't work (there *isn't* any
such universal spiritual development sequence). And most of the kids aren't
listening because the noise level in the classroom is too high.
)When german fairy-tales are translated in different languages, there )has
)sometimes happened mistakes. Then the real meaning has changed. The
)child knows/remembers of his/her earlier incarnations, what really then
)happened. If now happenings are told in fairy tales wrongly due to bad
)translation, the child will be confused and nightmares will come to the
)sleep. This happens fg. if "shopkeeper" is translated to "rich man".
)Different kind fairy-tales are told on different age-groups, because
)those are telling to children about different epochs according to
)anthroposophical periods.
Yes, this is why they insist on the original Grimms without later
modifications. Of course, the problem is that figuring out what is "really"
original is next to impossible, even scholars argue endlessly on the tiniest
details.
To my mind the thing affecting the children is the focus on purity and
"getting it right" spiritually. I don't believe they are *really* going to
have nightmares if they have heard the "wrong" version with "shopkeeper"
translated to "rich man." They're having nightmares because the teacher is
mean!
)Anthroposophist Friedel Lenz has written very interesting book:
)Bildsprache der M”rchen (The Figurative Language of Fairy-Tales). I
)don't know if it is published in english. In that book she explains )very
)carefully the real meaning of each happening and each character in
)traditional fairy tails.
True, but unless we actually believe anthroposophists have a lock on the
"real" meaning of each bird and stone and star, then what is affecting the
children is not these so-called "meanings," but the effect of having a
teacher who is caught up in these superstitions and expressing her hostility
and anxiety through this fetish about spiritual "correctness."
Diana
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Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 10:00:15 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
on 5/21/02 3:34 AM, Karen Sandburg at deerone mindspring.com wrote:
) Is there any one book that has all the fairy tales in it. I tried to find
) "interpretation of fairy tales" on the site but could not find it. Are there
) a series of books that could be read. Thanks.
Sharon: Ask Lisa about the story of a black boy which is very racist, I
can't remember the title, but I do remember her complaining about how awful
it was. Her daughter had to read the book in an older grade. Another deeply
esoteric book on "Snow-White and the Seven Dwarfs" illustrated by Elizabeth
Wagner-Koch, Temple Lodge Publishing, London might be given to pupils, but
unless you are familiar with esotericism, you are not likely to understand
the deeper meaning of the subtext. There are many books from which Waldorf
teacher's draw. I haven't seen one book that lists all the stories to be
told, however, here are some books you might find useful, they do not list
stories, but you can garner some of what is taught and why it might be
taught:
"The Spiritual Basis of Steiner Education, the Waldorf School Approach", Roy
Wilkinson, Antroposophic Press 1996.
(Don't miss his elaboration on Steiner's doctrine of elemental beings /
gnomes, sylphs, salamaders and undines, see also Steiner's book on Nature
Spirits, Rudolf Steiner Press London 1995).
"Toward Wholeness: Rudolf Steiner education in America," M.C. Richards,
Wesleyan University Press, Connecticut 1980.
"Teaching as a Lively Art", Marjorie Spock. Anthroposophic Press Hudson NY
1985.
"School as a Journey" Torin Finser, Anthroposophic Press 1994).
"The Foundations of Human Experience: Foundations of Waldorf Education",
Rudolf Steiner. Anthroposophic Press 1996.
"The Education of The Child and Early lectures on Education": Foundations of
Waldorf Education, Rudolf Steiner, Anthroposophic Press 1996.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 14:52:53 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
I wrote (to Karen):
)It has to be the original, unaltered, unedited Grimms - they never use
) )modernized updates or revisions (i.e., most of the fairy tale
) )collections out there). If you want to be sure which version of a tale
) )she heard, make sure you are checking the original Grimmms.
To clarify - if you've never looked into this matter of the original tales
versus the modernized updates, what happens is they are usually "cleaned up"
a bit for modern sensibilities (and sometimes with the aim of not terrifying
children!) - the bloodiest, goriest, most gruesome parts, and the sexist
messages, are often removed. Instead of getting beheaded, a bad guy gets put
in jail, etc.
Anthros will tell you if you clean them up you strip away the "archetypal"
significance, they don't mean anything anymore and don't have the healing
and nurturing qualities the original tales supposedly had. I concluded
eventually that this was total bull, that there's nothing nurturing to
children about hearing about peoples' heads chopped off and disobedient
wives murdered by their husbands etc.
Some Grimms tales are wonderful, others are really repulsive and
inappropriate for children. Second graders at our school, for instance,
heard "The Juniper Tree," a Grimms tale in which an evil stepmother kills,
cooks, and serves a little boy to his father for dinner.
Diana
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End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 737
-- Topica Digest --
Re: 1st grade stories
By deerone mindspring.com
Re: Fletcher
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: 1st grade stories
By mysplum earthlink.net
re: first grade stories
By momof2gals mindspring.com
RE: first grade stories
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: first grade stories
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: first grade stories
By Percedol netscape.net
Percedol's replies
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:58:27 -0400
From: "Karen Sandburg" (deerone mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
Hi Diana,
Yes, the stories I've heard related by my daughter are strange and hideous.
There seems to be alot of snakes in the stories she's related to me - they
punish the evildoers. I wonder what "archetype" they represent. Are these
archetypes Jungian or are they more esoteric than that? Females seem to
get punished more than males, though I'm not sure of this. In one story, a
woman was killed by being submerged in a boiling tub of water filled with
snakes. In another, a husband and wife were given the choice of a large or
small box. First, the husband chose a small box; it was filled with gold.
The wife later, after stealing some of her husband's gold, chose a large
box - and because of her greed, the large box was filled with snakes who
killed her!
And I wonder also why there are so many kings and queens and not ordinary
people. Isn't one of the Waldorfian precepts that we are all special but
equal?
Are your children still at Waldorf?
Karen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Diana Winters" (Winters_Diana hotmail.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
)
) I wrote (to Karen):
)
) )It has to be the original, unaltered, unedited Grimms - they never use
) ) )modernized updates or revisions (i.e., most of the fairy tale
) ) )collections out there). If you want to be sure which version of a tale
) ) )she heard, make sure you are checking the original Grimmms.
)
) To clarify - if you've never looked into this matter of the original tales
) versus the modernized updates, what happens is they are usually "cleaned
up"
) a bit for modern sensibilities (and sometimes with the aim of not
terrifying
) children!) - the bloodiest, goriest, most gruesome parts, and the sexist
) messages, are often removed. Instead of getting beheaded, a bad guy gets
put
) in jail, etc.
)
) Anthros will tell you if you clean them up you strip away the "archetypal"
) significance, they don't mean anything anymore and don't have the healing
) and nurturing qualities the original tales supposedly had. I concluded
) eventually that this was total bull, that there's nothing nurturing to
) children about hearing about peoples' heads chopped off and disobedient
) wives murdered by their husbands etc.
)
) Some Grimms tales are wonderful, others are really repulsive and
) inappropriate for children. Second graders at our school, for instance,
) heard "The Juniper Tree," a Grimms tale in which an evil stepmother kills,
) cooks, and serves a little boy to his father for dinner.
) Diana
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
) http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 11:24:04 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Fletcher
Sharon: Marja asked me to quote from John Fletcher's book entitled "Art
Inspired by Rudolf Steiner". As promised, I'll start sending some quotes.
Again I reiterate that it's definitely a book for anyone interested in
Anthroposophy to see. There is so much that I don't know where to begin!
(Plus the *colored* pictures are priceless!) Anyway, here is Steiner from
the lecture to his followers at the dedication of the Stuttgart House,
beneath which was built his Rosicrucian temple in red and blue. Steiner was
speaking upstairs in a room painted deep ultramarine blue (opaque, as he
hadn't developed lazuring yet), and many in his audience did not know of the
Rosicrucian temple below them. Steiner was discussing devotion to color on
the walls (I recently posted some of this). He also mentions that the
Sistine Madonna is an alter picture in which this thought-form works within
a congregation (used in Waldorf for same reason). He says that with
transparent colors, (as in colored windows), we enter into a relationship
with different (higher) beings than we do with opaque paint on walls. (By
1910 he was promoting the wet-on-wet technique "to let the form appear as
the work of the color" (beings) and to enable the paint to be transparent
and shine from within. He also developed lazuring, so that the application
of paint to walls could be transparent). Steiner points out in this sermon
"that within the world of etheric substance which surrounds us, with all the
beings incarnated in it, the forms we see here are actually present. There
are beings who really have these forms in the etheric world..." I'll post
that tomorrow! In the next few days I'll quote from this sermon, starting
today at the end, asterisks denote italics:
Steiner: "Thus you see that in what surrounds us here all the laws are
fulfilled which so-called white magic uses; not to work by means of any
compulsion upon modern humanity, but to consider that which must not be
touched, which is to allow the forces of the spiritual world to come forth
out of itself. If you bear in mind what has been said in this lecture you
will realize how important it is to anthroposophical work that it should
have its own home. You will have received the feeling that such a home must
be built and arranged within according to the laws of occultism itself, and
indeed according to laws of occultism which at first are somewhat remote.
You will also understand what it means on the whole when we possess no such
home and are obliged to give our lectures on Anthroposophy and carry on our
studies in the ordinary rooms usually at our disposal. Our age has indeed
very little talent in the domain which has been touched upon today, and the
greatest sins are committed in the realms of form and colour, For instance
the way people dress and the colours they use are outrageous. And when a man
goes through the streets of a large town and looks at shop windows with a
vision sharpened by occultism, he will be obliged to decide for himself the
question of whether what he sees comes from sound reason or from something
else. And if the judgement as regards colour is bad, it is still worse with
form. But this limited talent also exists in regard to decoration of rooms
and, where there is full consciousness, it is frightful to be obliged to
give our anthroposophical lectures in conventional rooms. When this is
considered and a comparison is made with our present surroundings, with all
that has proceeded from our own intentions and surrounds us, not in any way
from caprice, but as we *must* be surrounded if we wish to work under
favorable conditions, we shall be able to realize the importance of what has
been done here: and the words I have said to you today are intended to help
us realize that."
(John Fletcher, Art Inspired by Rudolf Steiner. p 98 Lecture from Steiner
given in Stuttgart 15 October 1911. Mercury Arts Publications 1987).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 12:03:05 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: 1st grade stories
on 5/22/02 5:58 AM, Karen Sandburg at deerone mindspring.com wrote:
) Hi Diana,
)
) Yes, the stories I've heard related by my daughter are strange and hideous.
) There seems to be alot of snakes in the stories she's related to me - they
) punish the evildoers. I wonder what "archetype" they represent. Are these
) archetypes Jungian or are they more esoteric than that? Females seem to
) get punished more than males, though I'm not sure of this. In one story, a
) woman was killed by being submerged in a boiling tub of water filled with
) snakes. In another, a husband and wife were given the choice of a large or
) small box. First, the husband chose a small box; it was filled with gold.
) The wife later, after stealing some of her husband's gold, chose a large
) box - and because of her greed, the large box was filled with snakes who
) killed her!
)
) And I wonder also why there are so many kings and queens and not ordinary
) people. Isn't one of the Waldorfian precepts that we are all special but
) equal?
Sharon: Anthroposophy is elitest and hierarchical. It's very bamboozling
when you expect Waldorf to be "new paradigm", "new education" and all that,
then find out they are serving up really outdated stuff many of us try to
avoid. I was very confused by all the violence against women, violent old
testament stories, blond haired princesses being rescued by blond prince
charming etc. Grimm's is old paradigm, and besides, written for adults. Jung
was looking at the coded alchemical texts and fairy tales that Anthroposophy
serves up to instill "morality" and occultism.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 19:21:03 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: re: first grade stories
Karen, who is interested in what stories her children were told in Waldorf
school, mentions how so many stories feature kings and queens. She then
asks:
Isn't one of the Waldorfian precepts that we are all special but
equal?
Lisa: I do not believe that the idea that everyone is "special but equal"
*is,* in fact, Waldorfian at all!
That *is* the impression that the schools give when reaching out to new
parents, however. And I believe that that idea -- that each child is special
-- is one of the main things that draws parents to enroll their children in
Waldorf.
Unfortunately, equality among all human beings is NOT one of
anthroposophy's precepts. Steiner's works, in fact, contain some quite
stomach-turning racism and anti-Semitism.
I would urge you (if you have not already done so) to check the PLANS'
Web site under the "articles" section.
I also, personally, have always felt that Waldorf's reliance on Grimm's
fairy tales (especially in the early grades) promotes a very patriarchal
view of the world. When my older daughter was in kindergarten, she more than
once expressed frustration that the girls in the stories told were always
either princesses in distress or else evil.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 04:09:02 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: first grade stories
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/Germany/Germany.htm
Germany
In Germany, two TV-programs were broadcast by REPORT-Mainz, on 28
Feb and 10 July 2000, seemingly much based on lobbying by AKdH
(Aktion Kinder der Holocaust), a small group in Basle. The programs
alleged an inherent anti-Semitism in Waldorf education was coming to
increased expression at Waldorf schools in Germany, making Jewish
parents increasingly taking their cildren out of the schools. The second
program has been put up at the site of PLANS as one of its tool in its
campaign against Waldorf education.
The programs led to a storm of protests from Waldorf parents, pupils and
teachers at the c.180 Waldorf schools in Germany. Evelyn Hecht-Galinski,
former Waldorf pupil and daughter of Heinz Galinski, a former chairman
of the Central Jewish Council in Germany, considered the Report program
on Waldorf schools to be "propaganda of the worst kind" and published an
appeal in defence of the Waldorf schools in Allgemeine J¸dische
Wochenzeitung, (General Jewish Weekly) and in five large German
Newspapers.
In a third broadcast, 9 April 2001, the program, faced with the need to
in court prove its allegation on the removal of Jewish children from
Waldorf schools by their parents, retreated from the allegation.
For a short comment on the broadcast REPORT-Mainz 28 Feb 2000
by Detlef Hardorp, spokesperson for the Waldorf schools in
Berlin-Brandenburg and Evelyn Galinski, see here.
For a more full comment on the program, see here.
For an article by Lorenzo Ravagli on Steiner's views on Judaism and
anti-Semitism, "Rudolf Steiner an active opponent against
anti-Semitism", see here.
For an article by Uwe Werner on "Anthroposophy in the Time of
Nazi Germany", see here.
Last updated in December, 2001
Lisa Ercolano wrote:
)
) Karen, who is interested in what stories her children were told in
) Waldorf
) school, mentions how so many stories feature kings and queens. She then
) asks:
)
) Isn't one of the Waldorfian precepts that we are all special but
) equal?
)
) Lisa: I do not believe that the idea that everyone is "special but
) equal"
) *is,* in fact, Waldorfian at all!
) That *is* the impression that the schools give when reaching out to new
) parents, however. And I believe that that idea -- that each child is
) special
) -- is one of the main things that draws parents to enroll their children
) in
) Waldorf.
) Unfortunately, equality among all human beings is NOT one of
) anthroposophy's precepts. Steiner's works, in fact, contain some quite
) stomach-turning racism and anti-Semitism.
) I would urge you (if you have not already done so) to check the PLANS'
) Web site under the "articles" section.
) I also, personally, have always felt that Waldorf's reliance on Grimm's
) fairy tales (especially in the early grades) promotes a very patriarchal
) view of the world. When my older daughter was in kindergarten, she more
) than
) once expressed frustration that the girls in the stories told were
) always
) either princesses in distress or else evil.
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 04:12:52 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: first grade stories
see here:
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/plans1.html
Lisa Ercolano wrote:
) Unfortunately, equality among all human beings is NOT one of
) anthroposophy's precepts. Steiner's works, in fact, contain some quite
) stomach-turning racism and anti-Semitism.
) I would urge you (if you have not already done so) to check the PLANS'
) Web site under the "articles" section.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 04:22:32 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: first grade stories
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/articles/SteinerAgainstAntisemitism1.htm
RUDOLF STEINER AN ACTIVE
OPPONENT OF ANTI-SEMITISM
A study shows that Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925), the founder of
anthroposophy, was an active opponent of anti-Semitism (1). The study
contradicts allegations, made especially since a broadcast in Germany
(Report Mainz) in February (2000), about Waldorf schools and their
founder.
The allegations about Steiner are based on a lack of overview and an
understanding of his views.
Steiner rejected anti-Semitism and racism allthrough his life
Already in the beginning of the 1880's, Steiner condemned one of the
most profiled representatives of anti-Semitism in Germany, the socialist
Eugen D¸hring. D¸hring argued in publications for a violent final
solution of the "Jewish question". Steiner described D¸hring's
anti-Semitism as "barbarian and anti-cultural" and condemned "racial
struggle" as "the most repulsive form of party struggle".
In the 1890s' Steiner vehemently argued against the "outrageous excesses
of the anti-Semites" and condemned the "anti-Semitic brutes" as enemies
of the human rights. As a convinced liberal, whose position coincided
with that of liberal Jewry (reform Jewry), he actively supported the
integration and full legal and social status of the Jews in Europe. In
1888 he wrote: "The Jews need Europe and Europe needs the Jews" (2).
Against the anti-Semitic propaganda of hatred, he set his ideal: "One
should only value mutual actions between individuals. It is completely
uninteresting if one is a Jew or a German ... That is so simple, that
one almost is stupid saying it. How stupid does one then not have to be
to say the opposite."
Anti-Semitism is the opposite of a sound way of thinking
In 1900 Steiner described anti-Semitism as a "derision of every cultural
achievement" of modern time, as "an expression of spiritual
inferiority", as a "sign of triteness" and as "the opposite of a sound
way of thinking". In a series of articles, that he wrote in 1901 for the
Berlin "Association against anti-Semitism", he argued against the
Germanen myth of the German racists and their "senseless anti-Semitic
chatter". He compared the special legislation against the Jews in
European countries with "statutes of slavery".
Anyone who believes in the ideas of the human rights, must say to
himself:
"Anti-Semitism is an insult to all beliefs in ideas. Most of all it is
an insult against the idea that humanity stands higher than any specific
form (tribe, race, people) in which it expresses itself" (3).
Steiner's clear criticism of anti-Semitism and racism runs through his
complete life's work. It is based on the philosophical foundation of
anthroposophy, the "ethical individualism", that Steiner conceived
already in the 1890s'. Its central concept is that of the self
determining individual and its emancipation from the thought- and life
forms that want to reduce man to an expression of racial and ethnical
peculiarities.
Anti-Semitism is "a danger for Jews and non Jews"
What he expressed already at the beginning of the 20th century turned
out to be prophetic, when he in anti-Semitism saw a symptom of cultural
and political degeneration and warned against its dangerousness.
Anti-Semitism poisoned not only the political culture and was a danger
not only to Jews, but to all people. "Anti-Semitism is not only a danger
to Jews, it is also a danger to non Jews" (3) Anti-Semitism (and with it
racism) is a symptom of spiritual decay, it is a symptom of a cultural
disease. Therefore it is a duty of everyone to "fight against it in all
areas as energetically as possible". (3)
Steiner condemned the at the time rampant racial antipathies as an
expression of "stale sentiments" and "instincts". They were expressed in
voelkisch and racist movements and summarized by national socialism,
that early turned against Steiner. The National Socialist struggle
against anthroposophy started already in 1921 in the widespread National
Socialist newspaper "V–lkischer Beobachter". Adolf Hitler in person blew
the horn starting the campaign against Steiner, in denouncing
anthroposophy as a "Jewish method of destroying the normal state of mind
of the peoples". (4)
At this time, Steiner was aquainted with important Jewish personalities.
Among others he - in spite of his criticism of Zionism - was a friend of
the Zionists Ernst M¸ller and Hugo Bergman. Bergman was a co-founder of
the peace association "Brith Shalom", to which later Gershom Sholem and
Martin Buber belonged. As Principal of the Hebrew University in
Jerusalem, Bergman tried to realize Steiner's political ideas in
Palestine, as he only found the solution to the "arabic question" to be
possible through overcoming the principle of the national state.
Zionism is a result of anti-Semitism
Because of his general reservations against the strives of the national
states, Steiner also opposed Zionism. (5) He saw in it a result of the
increasing anti-Semitism: "Anyone who has an open eye for the present,
knows that it is incorrect, when it is asserted that the affinity
between Jews is greater than their affinity with the strivings of modern
culture. Even if it has looked that way during the last years, it to a
high degree has been the result of the anti-Semitism. Anyone who, as I,
with shudder has seen what the anti-Semitism has accomplished in the
souls of noble Jews, must come to this conviction." (6) Here as also in
other places we find an explicit counter proof of what has been ascribed
to Steiner as opinion, that the Jews themselves should be guilty of the
anti-Semitism and because of their Zionism stand in the way for an
understanding of the Jews. For Steiner Zionism is a result of
anti-Semitism and not the other way around.
Steiner:
The time of ethics based on moral precepts is past - the future belongs
to the ethics of freedom!
In his essay on Hamerling's "Homunkulus" (1888), in which he defends
Hamerling against accusations of anti-Semitism, one finds a sentence
that needs an explanation. It has from time to time - in spite of the
trend of the essay - been quoted as an indication or even proof of
Steiner's anti-Jewish or anti-Semitic attitude. The fact, Steiner
writes, that Jewry has been preserved within the modern life of the
peoples, should be a "mistake of world history". He continues: "We don't
mean only the forms of the Jewish religion, we mean most of all the
spirit of Jewry, the Jewish way of thinking." (7)
In the following text it becomes clear what Steiner sees as the mistake:
that Jewry represents "a from the past into the present transplanted and
here quite unusable moral ideal". These comments, that are embedded in
his unconditional argument for the Jewish existence in Europe ("the Jews
need Europe and Europe needs the Jews"), must be read in the perspective
of the history of ideas. With the "moral ideal" and the "Jewish way of
thinking", Steiner's target is the belief in an abstract monotheism and
an ethics of moral precepts and duties, based on revelation.
Out of the same conviction Steiner criticized the contemporary
"Christian way of thinking", that wanted to submit the emancipated
individual to [external] moral norms. Against this, Steiner held it to
be necessary to overcome the constraints of the moral law in favour of
individual freedom.
Leading representatives of the Jewish Enlightenment (Haskala) expressed
themselves much more radically than Steiner. As one extreme
representative one can mention Moses Hess. The Mosaic religion is dead,
he writes, the by God chosen people must disappear for ever, to make it
possible for new precious life to arise. (8) On other occasions Steiner
developed comments on other aspects of the Mosaic religion, that stood
out as eternal to him.
A positive evaluation of Judaism
He emphasized the central importance of Judaism for the development of
the modern epoch of the West. In a public lecture (9) from 1910 he
recognized a task of Moses, that has continued to have an impact up to
the present and still has not come to an end: "What the later humanity
is indebted to Moses for, is the power to develop reason and intellect"
and "to think about the world ... out of the full ego consciousness in a
state of full wakefulness..." (10) "Moses stands out as the founder of
the new, intellectual world view, that in no way has come to an end, and
that still remains to teach people to bring practical life into
accordance with the natural phenomenon, as Moses did." (11)
Through the development of monotheism and the proclamation of a moral
law, Moses had transferred the godly will to the inner life of man.
Thereby the foundation for the emancipation of the human ego ("I") from
the Law had been laid. In that sense, Steiner considered the progress
from the ethics based on precepts to an ethics based on freedom as a
consequent development of Judaism. The human being should be its own
legislator.
Therefore he brought Jewish (and also Christian) elements into the
curriculum with the foundation of the Waldorf school to an extent that
has no counterpart among other well known pedagogical movements. The
story of Moses and the formation of the historical Israel should not
only in thoughts, but also in feelings make it possible to walk through
the great narrations of our cultural context.
Also Steiner's discussion of Jewish mysticism in 1902 and 1924 show (12)
that he in Judaism, as also with other world religions, differentiated
between different levels of the tradition and was capable of forming
exceedingly differentiated judgements.
In summary
Even if such a "proof" not is necessary, judgements by the National
Socialists show how off the point the accusations against Steiner are.
In 1935/36 the Nazis in several reports, that among other things led to
the prohibition of the Waldorf schools, classified anthroposophy as
"extremely hostile to race [racial thinking]" and "as such incompatible
with the National Socialist world view"(13).
The extensive evidence in Steiner's work of his active opposition
against anti-Semitism show that all other statements on issues related
to Judaism (especially in lectures), must be read in the context of his
opposition against racism and anti-Semitism (14). In view of his
expressed, public, permanent and partly polemic dissociations from such
ideologies, contrary interpretations are untenable.
The Federation of Free Waldorf Schools, Heidehofstr. 32,
D-70184 Stuttgart
Footnotes:
1) Ravagli L: Rudolf Steiner als aktiver Gegner
des Antisemitismus. See also the study:"Rassenideale sind der Niedergang
der Menschheit" - Anthroposophie und der Antisemitenvorwurf (Racial
ideals are the decline of humanity - Anthroposophy and the
accusation of anti-Semitism) by Kleist/Ravagli/Bader.
2) GA 32, a.a.O., S. 148.
3) GA 31, S. 412/413
4) Adolf Hitler in: V–lkischer Beobachter, 15.
M”rz 1921, 35. Jg., Ausgabe 22, S. 1.
5) as also during his time most of the German
Jews. Against the background of a temporarily lost importance of
anti-Semitism, he even once, at the time of a Zionist congress,
classified Zionism as more dangerous as the anti-Semitism, something
that clearly was meant as polemic.
6) GA 31, S. 409.
7) GA 32, Dornach 1971, S. 152.
8) Walter Laqueur: Der Weg zum Staat Israel.
Geschichte des Zionismus, Wien 1972, S.65.
9) GA 60, Dornach 1959, Vortrag vom 9. M”rz 1911,
S. 410 f.
10) Ebenda, S. 426.
11) Ebenda, S. 434. 1910 Steiner held a series of
lectures on the Genesis (GA 122) showing the great value he saw in it.
12) See Rudolf Steiner: Christianity as a
mystical fact and the mysteries of the past (full text) (GA, 8, 1902) as
also GA 353, 12th lecture.
13) Jakob Wilhelm Hauer to the Security Service
RFSS, Oberabschnitt S¸d-West, Stuttgart, of 7. Februar 1935. BAD R
4901-3285 as also a report from the Head Office in Berlin of the Secret
Service on "Anthroposophie" from May 1936, BAD Z/B I 904.
14) An important contribution to this work has
been made by David Schweizer with his essay "The cosmic Christ in
Judaism" (Der kosmische Christus im Judentum), Info3, 6/2000,
Kontempor”r, S. 12 f.
(Original text)
Lisa Ercolano wrote:
) Unfortunately, equality among all human beings is NOT one of
) anthroposophy's precepts. Steiner's works, in fact, contain some quite
) stomach-turning racism and anti-Semitism.
) I would urge you (if you have not already done so) to check the PLANS'
) Web site under the "articles" section.
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 22:26:48 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Percedol's replies
Walden:
Nice to see you are back, Percedol. I was looking forward to the promised
replies to previous questions/posts. It has been some time now and I
understand you must be busy. I have a few questions about your recent
Steiner-the-Humanitarian post but I will not bog you down until you find the
time to deal with the others. I think your English is very good. Get on
with it - please. To refresh all memories:
Percedol wrote a couple of weeks ago:
I will reply to previous and Peter's posts according to time availability
Walden then wrote: :
(snip) I sincerely hope you take the time
)to respond to previous posts - I, for one, would like to know your thoughts
)on the subjects.
)We have had many beginnings of informative dialogues at this list - only to
)be snuffed out by people ignoring questions or simply leaving. I was
)interested in what Joel Wendt called "The America Work," for example. We
)got to a point where I saw blatant racism with regards to a particular view
)of the destiny of Native Americans. I stated my shock and opinions AND had
)some questions. Then - instead of an explanation - some of us were
)blacklisted by Joel and then he leaves. That seems much more like a lack of
)respect than someone expressing frustration - as Debra did [previous
post]. Perhaps
)there was something I am missing that would help make sense of this
)apparent Anthroposophical view of the world.
)
)Trying to make sense of it all.
)
)-Walden
Percedol then wrote:
Exactly to avoid that it takes time. There are a few important posts left
behind. The biggest problem is that most of my sources are not in English
and are too difficult to translate. Also, I take more time to write in
English in a decent manner. Last, but not least, I have other things that
cannot be delayed further.
The reason Joel left, *maybe*, was the the *tone* used by the critics to
reply. It's extremely disturbing. But one can get used to everything...
Those posts will be answered because they are quite interesting. Especially
Sharon's about 'individuality'! And Peter's, of course!
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 738
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Fletcher
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Percedol's replies
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: Percedol's replies
By Gary GoodWinter.com
Re: Fletcher/correction + further comments
By mysplum earthlink.net
re: first grade stories
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: first grade stories
By mysplum earthlink.net
re: first grade stories
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Percedol's replies
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Percedol's replies
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: Percedol's replies
By Percedol netscape.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:33:44 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Fletcher
Sharon: More from Steiner's lecture of the opening of the Stuttgart House:
Steiner: "Besides being surrounded here in this room by certain shades of
colour we see all kinds of tokens and symbolic figures. (See designs:
planetary seals and columns.) These are filled with meaning, although not
that which can be found by the intellect. Ingenious persons may discover all
sorts of clever things in them, but to occultists such explanations mean
nothing. The chief point is that these figures are actually here and, if we
turn our physical eyes to any one of them, it is not merely the physical eye
but the whole organization, above all it is the currents of our etheric
body, which come into action in quite a specific way. They are aroused by
the course of the lines and by the forms of these figures, so that the
etheric body has different movements within it according as one looks at one
figure or another. This means that within the world of etheric substance
which surrounds us, with all the beings incarnated in it, the forms we see
here are actually present. There are beings who really have these forms in
the etheric world; and when we look at one of these figures our etheric body
adjusts itself to build up forms in its own movements according to these
lines. The figure produces a thought-form which then proceeds from it; and
according to the thought-form our etheric body will be able to make a real
union with one or another kind of being. These figures are the means by
which this may be accomplished, for when we look at them we produce within
ourselves the thought-forms, that is the movement-forms in our etheric
bodies."
(John Fletcher, Art Inspired by Rudolf Steiner. p 98 Lecture from Steiner
given in Stuttgart 15 October 1911. Mercury Arts Publications 1987).
Sharon: The planetary seals are seals that were made of glass. Each is a
different color, and they sort of resemble "snowflakes", each one is
different. The old alchemists such as Giordano Bruno, Agrippa and Fludd
mapped out lines of force. The pentagram (5 pointed star) was a medieval
wizard's favorite symbol of microcosmic man. A 6 pointed star represented
the macrocosm. Because he was Rosicrucian, Steiner's seals are based on the
number 7. This belief of planetary forces stems from a micro-macrocosmic
worldview, where believers think that a human being (the microcosm) can
connect with beings in the cosmos (the macrocosm). Steiner's planetary seals
are Saturn-blue, Sun-white, Moon-purple, Mars-red, Mercury-yellow,
Jupiter-orange, Venus-green. The columns that Steiner refers to represent
the planets as well. In Steiner's magic system, man has 7 bodies, he
prophesied that Earth will evolve through 7 epochs (we are now in the end of
the 5th), and that the earth has evolved through 4 phases, with 3 more to
go, making 7 altogether. (Saturn, Sun, Moon, Earth, Jupiter, Venus, Vulcan).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 14:03:43 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Percedol's replies
Percedol:
Yes, Walden,
I am working on those replies.
In the meantime I sent a few links I found on the web to address the
allegations of racism and anti-semitism.
walden wrote:
) Walden:
)
) Nice to see you are back, Percedol. I was looking forward to the
) promised
) replies to previous questions/posts. It has been some time now and I
) understand you must be busy. I have a few questions about your recent
) Steiner-the-Humanitarian post but I will not bog you down until you find
) the
) time to deal with the others. I think your English is very good. Get
) on
) with it - please. To refresh all memories:
)
) Percedol wrote a couple of weeks ago:
)
) I will reply to previous and Peter's posts according to time
) availability
)
) Walden then wrote: :
) (snip) I sincerely hope you take the time
) )to respond to previous posts - I, for one, would like to know your
) )thoughts
) )on the subjects.
)
) )We have had many beginnings of informative dialogues at this list - only
) )to
) )be snuffed out by people ignoring questions or simply leaving. I was
) )interested in what Joel Wendt called "The America Work," for example. We
) )got to a point where I saw blatant racism with regards to a particular
) )view
) )of the destiny of Native Americans. I stated my shock and opinions AND
) )had
) )some questions. Then - instead of an explanation - some of us were
) )blacklisted by Joel and then he leaves. That seems much more like a lack
) )of
) )respect than someone expressing frustration - as Debra did [previous
) post]. Perhaps
) )there was something I am missing that would help make sense of this
) )apparent Anthroposophical view of the world.
) )
) )Trying to make sense of it all.
) )
) )-Walden
)
) Percedol then wrote:
) Exactly to avoid that it takes time. There are a few important posts
) left
) behind. The biggest problem is that most of my sources are not in
) English
) and are too difficult to translate. Also, I take more time to write in
) English in a decent manner. Last, but not least, I have other things
) that
) cannot be delayed further.
) The reason Joel left, *maybe*, was the the *tone* used by the critics to
) reply. It's extremely disturbing. But one can get used to everything...
)
) Those posts will be answered because they are quite interesting.
) Especially
) Sharon's about 'individuality'! And Peter's, of course!
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:37:53 -0400
From: Gary Bonhiver (gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Re: Percedol's replies
on 5/22/02 10:03 AM, Percedol netscape.net at Percedol netscape.net wrote:
) Percedol:
) Yes, Walden,
)
) I am working on those replies.
) In the meantime I sent a few links I found on the web to address the
) allegations of racism and anti-semitism.
More likely Sune Nordwall (owner of the links) sent them to you to post...he
just sent them to me, too.
Sune has found a new mouthpiece.
...Gary
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:18:45 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Fletcher/correction + further comments
Sharon: I posted this quote below earlier and realize I gave the wrong page
number. Please note that I quoted from page 96 instead of 98. Reading some
of my comments made me realize that I've probably lost some of you so I've
added a few more remarks to hopefully clarify things.
) Sharon: More from Steiner's lecture of the opening of the Stuttgart House:
)
) Steiner: "Besides being surrounded here in this room by certain shades of
) colour we see all kinds of tokens and symbolic figures. (See designs:
) planetary seals and columns.) These are filled with meaning, although not
) that which can be found by the intellect. Ingenious persons may discover all
) sorts of clever things in them, but to occultists such explanations mean
) nothing. The chief point is that these figures are actually here and, if we
) turn our physical eyes to any one of them, it is not merely the physical eye
) but the whole organization, above all it is the currents of our etheric
) body, which come into action in quite a specific way. They are aroused by
) the course of the lines and by the forms of these figures, so that the
) etheric body has different movements within it according as one looks at one
) figure or another. This means that within the world of etheric substance
) which surrounds us, with all the beings incarnated in it, the forms we see
) here are actually present. There are beings who really have these forms in
) the etheric world; and when we look at one of these figures our etheric body
) adjusts itself to build up forms in its own movements according to these
) lines. The figure produces a thought-form which then proceeds from it; and
) according to the thought-form our etheric body will be able to make a real
) union with one or another kind of being. These figures are the means by
) which this may be accomplished, for when we look at them we produce within
) ourselves the thought-forms, that is the movement-forms in our etheric
) bodies."
)
) (John Fletcher, Art Inspired by Rudolf Steiner. p 98 [should say p
96] Lecture
from Steiner given in Stuttgart 15 October 1911. Mercury Arts Publications
1987).
)
) Sharon: The planetary seals are seals that were made of glass. Each is a
) different color, and they sort of resemble "snowflakes", each one is
) different.
The 7 glass seals are actual objects that were fixtures in the walls of the
upstairs of the Stuttgart House. (In the basement, where the Rosicrucian
Temple was located, the 7 Apocalyptic Seals adorned the red walls.) The
Planetary Seals were also cast in metal, for example Sun was also made out
of gold, as well as white glass. Venus was made out of green glass as well
as copper. All this is magic folks.
The old alchemists such as Giordano Bruno, Agrippa and Fludd
) mapped out lines of force. The pentagram (5 pointed star) was a medieval
) wizard's favorite symbol of microcosmic man. A 6 pointed star represented
) the macrocosm.
The lines of force mapped out by various occultists differs, there is no
system that entirely matches another. In Waldorf a teacher might tell
children to make a star with their bodies. By doing this they are tapping
into Steiner's beings in the cosmos. People with a micro-macrocosmic
worldview live inside and outside of their bodies. Most of us in the modern
world (materialists) live strictly from within our heads and bodies,
Anthroposophists don't. They exist not only inside of their bodies, but also
outside of their physical bodies because they believe that people have
astral bodies etc. that can expand way out into the cosmos to meet all the
beings flying around out there. The old Rosicrucian called Agrippa
(1486-1533) made a very well known drawing (in occult circles) of man the
pentagram, (as did my daughter in Waldorf school). The picture is of a man
in a star, his arms and legs spread outwards. Agrippa taught that man could
connect with all the beings by doing this with their bodies and he mapped
out a magical universe with various lines of force. Steiner read Agrippa and
was influenced by him, Steiner also wrote about Agrippa. Many of their ideas
are in sync. Agrippa was a major force on the medieval magicians.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 16:12:09 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: re: first grade stories
Karen:
)Yes, the stories I've heard related by my daughter are strange and
) )hideous. There seems to be alot of snakes in the stories she's related
) )to me - they punish the evildoers. I wonder what "archetype" they
) )represent. Are these archetypes Jungian or are they more esoteric than
) )that?
I don't know, maybe Sharon does. Certainly some are more esoteric -
as Marja said anthroposophists believe the Grimms tales contain
"truths" that speak to everyone because they are tales of things
that really happened in the spirit world, and in eons past we were
all supposed to have been clairvoyant and we understood these things
directly. Now one way we average un-spiritual types can reach these
spiritual "truths" is through hearing fairy tales. We relate to them now
because we were "there," way back when. (More "spiritual" people, like
anthroposophists, supposedly access these realms directly.)
)Females seem to get punished more than males, though I'm not sure of )this.
Generally true in Grimms, I think. Or at least punished for
different things - disobedience to authority figures/males,
nonconformity, mouthing off. Since the females are so often wicked,
it is no wonder they end up getting punished.
)In one story, a woman was killed by being submerged in a boiling tub of
)water filled with snakes. In another, a husband and wife were given the
)choice of a large or small box. First, the husband chose a small box; )it
)was filled with gold. The wife later, after stealing some of her )husband's
)gold, chose a large box - and because of her greed, the )large box was
)filled with snakes who killed her!
Yikes. I haven't heard these. Don't sound familiar from Grimms. I don't know
what the snakes are all about. - I do know Steiner wrote a "fairy tale" that
had something to do with a snake - maybe somebody else remembers? I can
imagine your daughter being terrified by these.
)And I wonder also why there are so many kings and queens and not )ordinary
)people. Isn't one of the Waldorfian precepts that we are all )special but
)equal?
No, I don't think so. I think they will say the kings and queens are
archetypes - every little boy relates because he is a king in his
fantasy, etc. Probably some truth to that. But they look down on
more "everyday" stories for children. For instance, you wouldn't
ever get one of those books that's supposed to help children through
everyday situations, like "Johnny Goes to the Dentist," that sort of
thing.
)Are your children still at Waldorf?
No, long gone. My son attended 3 years of Waldorf preschool and
kindergarten.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 13:24:51 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: first grade stories
on 5/22/02 9:12 AM, Diana Winters at Winters_Diana hotmail.com wrote:
) Karen:
)
)) Yes, the stories I've heard related by my daughter are strange and
))) hideous. There seems to be alot of snakes in the stories she's related
))) to me - they punish the evildoers. I wonder what "archetype" they
))) represent. Are these archetypes Jungian or are they more esoteric than
))) that?
)
) I don't know, maybe Sharon does.
Sharon: I don't really know what they are up to by repeating stories about
snakes, my hunch is that they are passing children through trials and
ordeals. Mystery schools do such things. The snakes that I know about in
Anthroposophy are depicted on Steiner's Planetary Seal Mercury. There is
also the Ouroboros (snake eating it's tail) which is a symbol painted on one
of the Goetheanum's walls. (Anthroposophy's mystical temple and world
headquarters in Dornach, Switzerland). Also Goethe's fairy tale (which
Steiner loved) about the Green Snake and the Beautiful Lily which Steiner
believed was Goethe's secret Revelation. (Steiner believed that Goethe was a
Rosicrucian). The story is an initiation, teaching that man must overcome
certain things if he wishes to receive three gifts from the Gold King, the
Silver King and the Brazen King. (thought, knowledge and feeling). The youth
in the story represents man's struggles for the highest inner perfection.
Before reaching the home of the beautiful lily which is the world of
spiritual reality, he must be able to go across a bridge (the snake is the
bridge) from earth or back again to the spirit world. When the bridge stands
man can do this but he must endure sorrows and sacrifices before there is
harmony between the earthly world and the spirit world. The Lily doesn't
only give happiness, she can kill as well, just the sight of her can cause
despair or weakness. The snake breaks into numerous precious stones which
the old man sinks into the river, the stones become a new bridge leading
over the river to the Risen Temple, then 2 will-o-the-wisps unlock the gates
of the temple. If you want me to quote at length on this fairy tale I will
be happy to. Let me know.
I think they will say the kings and queens are
) archetypes - every little boy relates because he is a king in his
) fantasy, etc. Probably some truth to that. But they look down on
) more "everyday" stories for children. For instance, you wouldn't
) ever get one of those books that's supposed to help children through
) everyday situations, like "Johnny Goes to the Dentist," that sort of
) thing.
Sharon: Also of note: the Rosicrucians swore to defend Royalty. The esoteric
tradition is quite strong within royal circles, (legitimizes their power).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:51:18 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: re: first grade stories
Diana, you wrote
)Yikes. I haven't heard these. Don't sound familiar from Grimms. I
)don't know what the snakes are all about. - I do know Steiner wrote
)a "fairy tale" that had something to do with a snake - maybe
)somebody else remembers? I can imagine your daughter being
)terrified by these.
I think the story you're remembering is "the green snake and the
beautiful lily" by Goethe. Steiner said this story is full of occult
truths and it's very, very important to Anthroposophists. I attended
a godawful amateur pageant of this story in Marin County, with a
crowd of Waldorf families. There are kings of gold, silver, bronze,
and mixed metals, but the king of mixed metals disappears...
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 14:47:29 -0400
From: percedol netscape.net
Subject: Re: Percedol's replies
Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com) wrote:
)on 5/22/02 10:03 AM, Percedol netscape.net at Percedol netscape.net wrote:
)
)) Percedol:
)) Yes, Walden,
))
)) I am working on those replies.
)) In the meantime I sent a few links I found on the web to address the
)) allegations of racism and anti-semitism.
)
)More likely Sune Nordwall (owner of the links) sent them to you to post...he
)just sent them to me, too.
)
)Sune has found a new mouthpiece.
)
)...Gary
Percedol:
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/plans1.html
This link was on a web page I found recently.
Anyway, nobody said that Percedol has to be one exclusive person.
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 14:04:20 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Percedol's replies
Hi everybody,
I'll be leaving for the summer soon and I'm not sure how much longer I'll be
able to participate actively on the list, but Percedol's recent replies give
me a chance to chime in one more time. This will be old hat for some of you,
so feel free to delete this if you've already witnessed the debates last
year on the same theme. Percedol, channelling Sune, wrote:
)I sent a few links I found on the web to address the
)allegations of racism and anti-semitism.
Unfortunately those links don't really address the allegations of racism and
antisemtism, they avoid these allegations. Regarding the German television
programs, we read:
)In a third broadcast, 9 April 2001, the program, faced with the need to
)in court prove its allegation on the removal of Jewish children from
)Waldorf schools by their parents, retreated from the allegation.
That's true, but rather misses the point. Out of all the claims made in
these broadcasts, the only one that didn't pass legal scrutiny was the
sentence "Jewish parents are increasingly withdrawing their children from
Waldorf schools." To prove the "increasingly" part, the reporters would have
had to submit evidence that more Jewish kids were withdrawn in 2000 than in
1999, for example, and they recognized that securing affidavits to this
effect would have been a pointless waste of time, so they agreed to drop the
original assertion. This is an excellent example of how the Waldorf
establishment in Germany deals with public scrutiny: it tries to spin legal
defeats as if they were legal victories, by focusing on inconsequential
details of the suits that they've lost. To see all of the other broadcast
material that the court sustained, check out the transcript of one of the
programs at the PLANS site.
In Lorenzo Ravagli's article on Steiner as an enemy of antisemitism, we
read:
)A study shows that Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925), the founder of
)anthroposophy, was an active opponent of anti-Semitism
Again, this is true, but misses the point. None of Steiner's various critics
(and certainly not the German TV program) has denied that Steiner had a
brief period around the turn of the century when he opposed antisemitism.
The trouble is that this period lasted only a few months, possibly several
years at most, and was both preceded and followed by a lengthy career of
promoting antisemitism. That Ravagli is not a serious analyst becomes clear
when he claims that "Steiner rejected anti-Semitism and racism allthrough
his life", which is like saying that Ronald Reagan was a Democrat all
through his life. Ravagli's article is a goldmine of embarrassing quotes and
ham-handed falsifications, misrepresenting nearly every source it cites,
from Hitler to Moses Hess to the two-bit Nazi scandalmonger Jakob Hauer.
Unfortunately, this is not an aberration; I have yet to come across a single
anthroposophist attempt to analyze Steiner's antisemitism in a sincere and
serious way. These last few posts from Percedol are, in summary, the sort of
primitive propaganda designed to appeal to gullible anthroposophists who'll
believe anything any other anthro tells them, as long as it seemingly
reflects well on their guru. Maybe Sune will send Percedol some real
arguments next time.
Peter S.
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 07:05:06 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Percedol's replies
Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
) Hi everybody,
)
) I'll be leaving for the summer soon and I'm not sure how much longer
) I'll be
) able to participate actively on the list, but Percedol's recent replies
) give
) me a chance to chime in one more time. This will be old hat for some of
) you,
) so feel free to delete this if you've already witnessed the debates last
)
) year on the same theme. Percedol, channelling Sune, wrote:
)
) )I sent a few links I found on the web to address the
) )allegations of racism and anti-semitism.
)
) Unfortunately those links don't really address the allegations of racism
) and
) antisemtism, they avoid these allegations. Regarding the German
) television
) programs, we read:
)
) )In a third broadcast, 9 April 2001, the program, faced with the need to
) )in court prove its allegation on the removal of Jewish children from
) )Waldorf schools by their parents, retreated from the allegation.
)
) That's true, but rather misses the point. Out of all the claims made in
) these broadcasts, the only one that didn't pass legal scrutiny was the
) sentence "Jewish parents are increasingly withdrawing their children
) from
) Waldorf schools." To prove the "increasingly" part, the reporters would
) have
) had to submit evidence that more Jewish kids were withdrawn in 2000 than
) in
) 1999, for example, and they recognized that securing affidavits to this
) effect would have been a pointless waste of time, so they agreed to drop
) the
) original assertion. This is an excellent example of how the Waldorf
) establishment in Germany deals with public scrutiny: it tries to spin
) legal
) defeats as if they were legal victories, by focusing on inconsequential
) details of the suits that they've lost. To see all of the other
) broadcast
) material that the court sustained, check out the transcript of one of
) the
) programs at the PLANS site.
Percedol:
If it is true it was a wise decision to drop the case.
)
) In Lorenzo Ravagli's article on Steiner as an enemy of antisemitism, we
) read:
)
) )A study shows that Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925), the founder of
) )anthroposophy, was an active opponent of anti-Semitism
)
) Again, this is true, but misses the point. None of Steiner's various
) critics
) (and certainly not the German TV program) has denied that Steiner had a
) brief period around the turn of the century when he opposed
) antisemitism.
) The trouble is that this period lasted only a few months, possibly
) several
) years at most, and was both preceded and followed by a lengthy career of
)
) promoting antisemitism. That Ravagli is not a serious analyst becomes
) clear
) when he claims that "Steiner rejected anti-Semitism and racism
) allthrough
) his life", which is like saying that Ronald Reagan was a Democrat all
) through his life. Ravagli's article is a goldmine of embarrassing quotes
) and
) ham-handed falsifications, misrepresenting nearly every source it cites,
)
) from Hitler to Moses Hess to the two-bit Nazi scandalmonger Jakob Hauer.
)
) Unfortunately, this is not an aberration; I have yet to come across a
) single
) anthroposophist attempt to analyze Steiner's antisemitism in a sincere
) and
) serious way.
Percedol:
Simply because of the absence of the antisemitism. It is quite difficult
to analyze something that does not exist. But when lectures and books
are read just to be misinterpreted as you do then one can think he found
what he was looking for. RS spoke for everybody with no exclusion:
"The same beings who were actively engaged in the founding of the
Zoroastrian and Egyptian religions; the same being, Jesus of Nazareth,
who once offered up his body to Christ the Lord, so that he could be
active on the Earth, these beings once more had to speak to humanity,
and speak in anew form, a new language, that can be understood by a
unified humanity. This is why the exalted ones speak so that their
language does not consider the difference between race or language,
between sex and social standing. Thare can no longer be any separate
pacts, but humankind must become a community."
"Only through love - uniting with others, and the harmony of all our
souls - can salvation be found. (...)
Many people demand that others should be different, that their class or
occupation should be different, and they fight for this. But who can say
that this kind of struggle will ever succeed: we can never go wrong if
we change ourselves inwardly, if we all begin to reform our own inner
being, to make ourselves better. In this struggle there can be no class
distinction, no difference of race, position or sex. And the meaning of
the theosophical movement that will make it into a great movement and
force for the future."
[RS in Berlin, on January 2, 1905]
But then there are people who think that RS could have been racist or
anti-semitic. I wonder what makes them so eager to attack the figure of
RS. Why people and groups so different among them, are all coalized
against RS and A. There is so much hatred against A. and RS that one may
wonder: 'How can all this hatred be good?'
What moves these people against the man who gave us a "Philosophy of
Freedom"? One should seriously consider what moves him/her against the
person of RS.
These last few posts from Percedol are, in summary, the sort of
) primitive propaganda designed to appeal to gullible anthroposophists
) who'll
) believe anything any other anthro tells them, as long as it seemingly
) reflects well on their guru. Maybe Sune will send Percedol some real
) arguments next time.
)
) Peter S.
Percedol:
The fact is that those who study RS have a great care for the truth.
And also that there is no guru today. Each one is on their own. Like it
or not. Time for gurus is over. Today the 'guru' leaves the student
free! (Read the PoF!)
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 739
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Fletcher
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Percedol's replies
By pstaud hotmail.com
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
RE:
By jking1 ora.fda.gov
Re: Percedol's replies
By j.marshall.knight worldnet.att.net
RE: Percedol's re-replies
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: Percedol's replies
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: Percedol's re-replies
By Gary GoodWinter.com
RE: Percedol's re-replies
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: Percedol's re-replies
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Percedol's re-replies
By Percedol netscape.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 08:29:35 -0700
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Fletcher
Sharon: Steiner taught that if we looked at his Planetary Seals, (his
colored seals made out of glass that represent actual beings), a
thought-form would radiate out and connect our etheric bodies with certain
beings in the cosmos. Below Steiner is talking about a two paneled icon,
depicting Michael slaying a dragon, (another "snake" in Anthroposophy), and
Raphael ruling over a vanquished dragon. (Fifth and Sixth Epochs). Steiner
mentions that the icons don't quite work but if Stockmeyer succeeds in
repainting the icons in the right way they will work better. (One of the
reasons certain pictures in Waldorf need to be copied by the children from
the teachers, who get the pictures directly from Steiner.) When you read the
quote you will start to have a sense of why Anthroposophists believe that
the wet-on-wet talismans (and other icons) produced by Waldorf pupils are
supposed to be able to heal.
A little history: Karl Stockmeyer was a young architect who attended the
Theosophical Congress in Munich in 1907 and was enthralled with Steiner's
Rosicrucion decorations and mystery play which was loaded with Steiner's
Rosicrucian symbols. (Many of the other Theosophists such as Annie Besant
were ticked off by Steiner's Rosicrucian emphasis because they felt Steiner
was trying to steer their society towards his own pseudo-Christian beliefs).
Anyway, the following year Steiner made a drawing of a Rosicrucian temple
for Stockmeyer who then drew the architectural drawings and the temple was
built above ground in Malsch. Steiner called it the first Rosicrucian Temple
to stand upon the face of the earth (traditionally they were underground).
Years later, Stockmeyer was asked by Steiner to gather the first Waldorf
teachers for the first school but had no luck. Steiner had to do it himself
and Stockmeyer was among the first Waldorf School teachers.
Steiner: "We now come to a kind of action which affects the human etheric
body by first stimulating the astral body; also by means of the element of
space and we may study an example of this in this room. Up above you see two
pictures which were contributed for this special occasion by our friend,
Karl Stockmeyer. These two pictures will later be painted differently and
they will then produce the full effect intended. The effect of these two
pictures together, not of each singly, is somewhat as follows: when first
one picture works and afterwards the other, then under all circumstances
whether it is wished or not, the one picture and afterwards the other will
together rouse up thought-forms through particular formations in the astral
body. This remains in the subconsciousness and - because it is contained in
the intention of the pictures - it is only reproduced in an abstract way by
means of ideas. Our feeling may perhaps render more perceptible the
thought-forms which our astral body will produce perfectly under all
circumstances from these pictures if Karl Stockmeyer succeeds in painting
them in the right way.
In the picture on the right, a kind of dragon, is vanquished by a great
being who belongs to the higher Hierarchies, Raphael, merely by his magnetic
gaze; and when through the development of the will man comes to receive
power of this being into his own will, we shall have the power the Greeks
connected with the divine healing powers of Aesculapius. By means of
suitable training all that is contained in the spiritually magnetic gaze can
have curative effect and may be called forth in thought, if directly
afterwards we carry over the feeling of this one picture to what meets it in
the other. The optical effect must be conveyed to the Phantom so that with
the help of the phantom forces of the physical body the effect from the
dragon is strengthened and is then overcome by the power of Michael. When we
acquire the power to feel this thought out of the forces of the universe and
to think how, through the physical body, it may receive a vehicle from
strengthened will-forces (so that a person need no longer say in regard to
them that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak) - when we have these
consecutive feelings and formations of the astral body we have something
which can subconsciously strengthen the moral nature very much".
(John Fletcher, Art Inspired by Rudolf Steiner. p 97 Lecture
from Steiner given in Stuttgart 15 October 1911. Mercury Arts Publications
1987).
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:20:10 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Percedol's replies
Percedol writes:
)Simply because of the absence of the antisemitism. It is quite difficult
)to analyze something that does not exist.
You have proven yourself that Steiner's antisemitism does exist, by
re-stating it in your own words here on this list a couple months ago. The
problem here is that you don't realize that Steiner's antisemitism is in
fact antisemitic. It's not a matter of whether it "exists"; you and I agree,
at least partially, on what Steiner's views on Jews were. You just can't
recognize that these views, which you have said that you share, are
antisemitic.
)But when lectures and books
)are read just to be misinterpreted as you do then one can think he found
)what he was looking for.
Again, you and I don't interpret Steiner differently on this question, thus
there is no "misinterpretation" involved on either side.
)RS spoke for everybody with no exclusion:
Yes, as long as they gave up their particularistic identities and became
good Christian theosophists. The "unified humanity" of your Steiner quote
does not include Jews (or a whole lot of others, either).
)But then there are people who think that RS could have been racist or
)anti-semitic.
This seems to be difficult for you to comprehend because you think that
Steiner's universalism can't possibly be racist or antisemitic. Many people,
not just anthroposophists, make the same error. Steiner's universalism was a
false universalism; it demanded that Jews, Slavs, and various racially
"backward" people repudiate their own identities in order to becaome good
Aryans and preferably Germans. It never occurred to him that his supposedly
"universal" values were simply his own particularistic identity writ large.
)I wonder what makes them so eager to attack the figure of
)RS.
We don't attack "the figure of RS", we attack some of his ideas. You need to
learn the difference.
)Why people and groups so different among them, are all coalized
)against RS and A. There is so much hatred against A. and RS that one may
)wonder: 'How can all this hatred be good?'
Criticism is not at all the same thing as hatred. You need to learn the
difference.
)What moves these people against the man who gave us a "Philosophy of
)Freedom"? One should seriously consider what moves him/her against the
)person of RS.
This has nothing to do with "the person of RS", it has to do with his
teachings. You need to learn the difference.
)The fact is that those who study RS have a great care for the truth.
Indeed we do. But people like you, who refuse to study RS, can't tell truth
from untruth. One more difference that you need to learn.
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 17:50:06 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Just spent a few minutes looking at ongoing discussions about Waldorf ed. at
the Mothering magazine message boards. These are public - all you need to do
is go there (mothering.com/discussions) and click on a topic of interest to
see what everyone has said. However, since feathers get ruffled so easily
about these things, I won't quote or copy any messages here directly.
To be fair, a majority of people posting love and adore Waldorf, what they
know of it (most of the mothers there are mothers of babies and toddlers,
doing the initial exploration about schooling, and falling in love in the
same gushing infatuated style that even we, the most hardened and cynical
critics, once did for Waldorf. There is, however, some expression of
disillusionment and a few people noting aspects about Waldorf make them
uncomfortable (like, what's up with children drawing people without faces?)
or seem cultish (the idea that the class becomes a family with the teacher
as the mother-figure, this one makes attachment parenting people a little
nervous).
But what I really wanted to report was the lowest of the low, a Waldorf
teacher warning mothers at a parent/toddler class against extended
breastfeeding because - get this - studies have shown that extended nursers
are less able to leave home for college!!!!!!!
That is really just a ghastly and brazen lie. Right up there with telling
parents early reading is linked to suicide.
The teacher also said the appropriate time for weaning was when the child
walks. Another poster put up the comments (I think they were recently posted
here as well) by Rise Smythe-Freed showing that not all anthroposophists are
recommending early weaning anymore; perhaps these enlightened folks need to
work a bit harder to get the word out.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 14:02:56 -0400
From: "King, Jennifer S" (JKING1 ORA.FDA.GOV)
Subject: RE:
Gosh, you mean I should have weaned my boys at 9 and 10 months when they
started walking?? Ha! Not likely. I would not really mind weaning them
now, but they are not interested in weaning at all - and they are 18 months.
The Waldorf preschool director nursed her two older girls (pre-teen & teen)
for two years, back in her pre-Waldorf days. But her 20 month old was
weaned before a year. I did not ask her why - would not have occurred to me
to have done so. Maybe it was a Waldorf thing? She kind of laughs when I
pick up my boys and one of them practically dives down my shirt - they like
to nurse at the end of the day to unwind.
College is a long way off - but I do think the apron strings will be long
since untied by then!!!
My boys are VERY independent already. More cuddly than their playmates, but
that might just be because they are so used to being very physical.
Jennifer
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Winters [mailto:Winters_Diana hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 10:50 AM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject:
Just spent a few minutes looking at ongoing discussions about Waldorf ed. at
the Mothering magazine message boards. These are public - all you need to do
is go there (mothering.com/discussions) and click on a topic of interest to
see what everyone has said. However, since feathers get ruffled so easily
about these things, I won't quote or copy any messages here directly.
To be fair, a majority of people posting love and adore Waldorf, what they
know of it (most of the mothers there are mothers of babies and toddlers,
doing the initial exploration about schooling, and falling in love in the
same gushing infatuated style that even we, the most hardened and cynical
critics, once did for Waldorf. There is, however, some expression of
disillusionment and a few people noting aspects about Waldorf make them
uncomfortable (like, what's up with children drawing people without faces?)
or seem cultish (the idea that the class becomes a family with the teacher
as the mother-figure, this one makes attachment parenting people a little
nervous).
But what I really wanted to report was the lowest of the low, a Waldorf
teacher warning mothers at a parent/toddler class against extended
breastfeeding because - get this - studies have shown that extended nursers
are less able to leave home for college!!!!!!!
That is really just a ghastly and brazen lie. Right up there with telling
parents early reading is linked to suicide.
The teacher also said the appropriate time for weaning was when the child
walks. Another poster put up the comments (I think they were recently posted
here as well) by Rise Smythe-Freed showing that not all anthroposophists are
recommending early weaning anymore; perhaps these enlightened folks need to
work a bit harder to get the word out.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:20:14 -0700
From: "J. Marshall Knight" (j.marshall.knight worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: Percedol's replies
on 5/23/02 12:05 AM, Percedol netscape.net at Percedol netscape.net wrote:
) Percedol:
) The fact is that those who study RS have a great care for the truth.
) And also that there is no guru today. Each one is on their own.
Jim:
Percedol have you considered your statement here? According to RS he was an
Initiate. An Initiate, according to some occultists and people who study
such things, is a person standing at the door waiting to enter the four
higher realms of spiritual awareness. The occultists say there are twelve
levels of awareness and the Initiate is at level eight. So RS was probably
quite right not to let his flock treat him as a Spiritual Guru: He Was not!
A Guru is one's spiritual teacher and if you look at the meaning the Hindus
gave that word you'll see that they viewed a guru as someone who was a
spiritual guide not someone who lorded over others.
)Like it
) or not. Time for gurus is over. Today the 'guru' leaves the student
) free! (Read the PoF!)
Perhaps you are right here! This is practiced in most Waldorf schools but
from a point of view "of the blind leading the blind." The rub is that some
of the teachers in Waldorf seemingly do not know what freedom means nor how
to practice it. I think there are too many mini-gurus in the form of
teachers in Waldorf. Many teachers use this to carry out their own need to
lord over others such as students and parents. With this in mind, I think
Waldorf Schools would be better if they did have one set of guiding
principles from which they operate. Instead the schools have so many
teachers who think they are highly evolved beings, make up rules as they go
and make up occult precepts without much spiritual practice. E.g., some
teachers have less than two years of reading such books as PoF and hardly
any personal practice of spiritual discipline. When they are questioned
about some outlandish statement they often hark back to RS, the Guru, in
the form of: "Dr. Stiener says......." Then when they are asked to show the
references to when and where "Steiner says," there are blank stares.
Percedol, your statement above is a platitudinous pronouncement that means
nothing in the face of the processes of Waldorf practices. May I suggest
that you begin directing your attention toward the way Waldorf schools
actually attempt to manifest these lofty ideas. The practices, e.g, freedom,
often are so far from the precepts that one would have to conclude that all
the connecting neurotransmitters in Waldorf teachers' brains are flowing in
etheric soup. The teachers seem to think that logical, connective thinking
is bad and is not also a gift from God.
Waldorf teaching does not leave the student free. In fact it does not start
out free nor does not end up free. Please go visit, on more than one
occasion, your local Waldorf school. Observe the controls that are placed on
the students. (They can only play with certain toys, etc.) When there is an
exercise of "freedom" there is a corresponding lapse of responsibility.
Often children are permitted to put themselves in dangerous situations
because the teacher thinks this is an exercise of freedom. So again I say
many of the teachers do not know what freedom means nor how to practice it.
You know, Percedol, I have been observing the comments on this site for over
two year and I have not seen one person defending Walforf and Anthroposophy
with any sort of logical responses. More often than not I witness defenders
attempting to discredit the person who points out in Steiner's writings some
contradictory statements Steiner himself made. If Steiner said it, Steiner
said it. So I ask you, how do you reconcile in your mind the contradictions
Steiner made? Apparently, YOU would like for those of us who are seeking to
keep Waldorf out of the US public schools arena to close our collective eyes
to the many misrepresentations made and are being made by Waldorf. Why is
this? What do you need from us so you can be FREE from Steiner and
Anthroposophy? Based on your statement above you think you are free. How so
when you can not let your mind delve in obvious sense perceptions such as
the statements Steiner wrote? You can not "see," therefore you can not be
free. I venture to add most Waldorf teachers are not free. You see they can
not see uniquely, individualistic children, they see Steiner's theories not
the children. Therefore, they can not help an individual child attain his or
her freedom because they attempt to wrap them in Steiner,s theory. I urge
you to go see for yourself. May I also suggest for other DoF's that you join
PLANS and help us keep Waldorf out of Public schools in America. In doing so
you will be in a position to have Waldorf schools teach Anthroposophy and be
left alone. You will also be in a position to help Waldorf weed out
inconsistences, unqualified teachers qua mini-gurus, denounce Steiner's
racist theories and put forth its TRUTHS.
Oh yes I have been involved with Waldorf schools. My son went through nine
years of it because of my blindness. I support the existence of Waldorf and
simultaneously denounce its encroachment into Public schools. In my view
Waldorf schools have an issue with freedom because they themselves refuse to
announce and be what they really are. A person (or organization) can not be
free until he or she has attained the courage to be. In the case of Waldorf
this means that when Waldorf can overtly state its beliefs, all of them, and
state precisely how they fulfill those beliefs in everyday practices in the
classroom and administratively they begin to develop the "courage to be" and
hence to live in freedom. They can not teach others how to be free by living
a lie!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 15:35:33 -0400
From: percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Percedol's re-replies
Percedol netscape.net wrote:
)
)Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
)) In Lorenzo Ravagli's article on S. as an enemy of antisemitism, we
)) read:
))
)) )A study shows that R. S. (1861-1925), the founder of
)) )anthroposophy, was an active opponent of anti-Semitism
))
)) Again, this is true, but misses the point. None of S.'s various
)) critics
)) (and certainly not the German TV program) has denied that S. had a
)) brief period around the turn of the century when he opposed
)) antisemitism.
)) The trouble is that this period lasted only a few months, possibly
)) several
)) years at most, and was both preceded and followed by a lengthy career of
))
)) promoting antisemitism. That Ravagli is not a serious analyst becomes
)) clear
)) when he claims that "S. rejected anti-Semitism and racism
)) allthrough
)) his life", which is like saying that Ronald Reagan was a Democrat all
)) through his life. Ravagli's article is a goldmine of embarrassing quotes
)) and
)) ham-handed falsifications, misrepresenting nearly every source it cites,
))
)) from Hitler to Moses Hess to the two-bit Nazi scandalmonger Jakob Hauer.
))
)) Unfortunately, this is not an aberration; I have yet to come across a
)) single
)) anthroposophist attempt to analyze S.'s antisemitism in a sincere
)) and
)) serious way.
Percedol:
Simply because RS was not antisemitic. It is quite difficult
to analyze something that does not apply to RS. But when lectures and
books are read just to be misinterpreted as you do then one can think
he found what he was looking for. RS spoke for everybody with no
exclusion as you can read below:
"The same beings who were actively engaged in the founding of the
Zoroastrian and Egyptian religions; the same being, Jesus of
Nazareth, who once offered up his body to Christ the Lord, so that he
could be active on the Earth, these beings once more had to speak to
humanity, and speak in anew form, a new language, that can be
understood by a unified humanity. This is why the exalted ones speak
so that their language
does not consider the difference between race or language, between
sex and social standing.
Thare can no longer be any separate pacts, but humankind must become
a community."
"Only through love - uniting with others, and the harmony of all our
souls - can salvation be found. (...)
Many people demand that others should be different, that their class
or occupation should be different, and they fight for this. But who
can say that this kind of struggle will ever succeed: we can never go
wrong if we change ourselves inwardly, if we all begin to reform our
own inner being, to make ourselves better. In this struggle there can
be no class distinction, no difference of race, position or sex. And
the meaning of the theosophical movement that will make it into a
great movement and force for the future."
[RS in Berlin, on January 2, 1905, GA 251]
As can be read above RS clearly include everybody without distinction
of RACE, LANGUAGE, SOCIAL STATUS,etc. That's because the teachers who
speak for the Christ have no prejudice of race, language, etc. and it
could not be possible otherwise.
But some people criticize RS and other teachers like MS moved by the
spirit of aversion with allegations of racism, etc.
The spirit of aversion is always looking for excuses and targets to
express itself. It is much more difficult to change something within
ourselves than to criticize others. The latter is a much easier way
and corresponds to the spirit of aversion.
But then there are people who think that RS could have been racist or
anti-semitic. I wonder what makes them so eager to attack the figure
of teachings of RS. Why people and groups so different among them, of
so opposite views, are all coalized against the teachings of RS.
There is so much spirit of aversion against the teachings of RS that
one may wonder: 'How can all this spirit of aversion be good?'
What moves these people against the the path that expresses a
"Philosophy of Freedom"? One should seriously consider what moves
him/her against the teachings of RS.
)These last few posts from Percedol are, in summary, the sort of
)) primitive propaganda designed to appeal to gullible anthroposophists
)) who'll
)) believe anything any other anthro tells them, as long as it seemingly
)) reflects well on their guru. Maybe Sune will send Percedol some real
)) arguments next time.
))
)) Peter S.
)
Percedol:
The fact is that those who study RS (and one may forget that study is
the first step of the discipline that one does together with the
practice, because is part of the practice) have a great care for the
truth.
And also that THERE IS NO GURU today. Each one is on their own. Like
it or not. Time for gurus is over. Today the 'guru' leaves the
student Ýfree! (Read the PoF!)
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 19:20:35 -0400
From: percedol netscape.net
Subject: Re: Percedol's replies
"J. Marshall Knight" (j.marshall.knight worldnet.att.net) wrote:
)on 5/23/02 12:05 AM, Percedol netscape.net at Percedol netscape.net wrote:
)
)) Percedol:
)) The fact is that those who study RS have a great care for the truth.
)) And also that there is no guru today. Each one is on their own.
)
)Jim:
)Percedol have you considered your statement here? According to RS he was an
)Initiate. An Initiate, according to some occultists and people who study
)such things, is a person standing at the door waiting to enter the four
)higher realms of spiritual awareness.
Please expand on what it means 'standing at the door waiting to enter
the...'. I thought an Initiate 'is' in higher worlds with his
consciousness.
The occultists say there are twelve
)levels of awareness and the Initiate is at level eight.
Percedol:
Pleae expand: what are these twelve levels. I thought there were
three higher levels (plus three lower plus ordinary level, makes
seven. Then possibly even three higher would make ten. What are 11th
and 12th?) Why the Initiate is at level eight?
So RS was probably
)quite right Ýnot to let his flock treat him as a Spiritual Guru: He Was not!
)A Guru is one's Ýspiritual teacher and if you look at the meaning the Hindus
)gave that word you'll see that they viewed a guru as someone who was a
)spiritual guide not someone who lorded over others.
In Eastern methods it was necessary a guru to follow your steps and
to tell you what to do and what is right or wrong. Today in the West
one is left alone.
))Like it
)) or not. Time for gurus is over. Today the 'guru' leaves the student
)) free! (Read the PoF!)
)
)Perhaps you are right here! This is Ýpracticed in most Waldorf schools but
)from a point of view "of the blind leading the blind." The rub is that some
)of the teachers in Waldorf seemingly do not know what freedom means nor how
)to practice it. ÝI think there are too many mini-gurus in the form of
)teachers in Waldorf.
Percedol:
To meet a Teacher is quite an exceptional event. Teachers don't
appear publicly very often. Especially today. So I would not believe
that there are Teachers in any school. They are just teachers.
And freedom can be possibly realized during meditation by rare
individuals for a few moments or so, but it is most likely quite a
rare experience.
Many teachers use this to carry out their own need to
)lord over others such as students and parents. With this in mind, I think
)Waldorf Schools would be better if they did have one set of guiding
)principles from which they operate. ÝInstead the schools have so many
)teachers who think they are highly evolved beings, make up rules as they go
)and make up occult precepts without much spiritual practice. E.g., some
)teachers have less than two years of reading such books as PoF and hardly
)any personal practice of spiritual discipline.
Percedol:
I agree. This is one of the main reasons I don't have much
relationship with these people. 'Nobody' is interested in practicing.
When they are questioned
)about some outlandish statement they often hark back to ÝRS, the Guru, in
)the form of: "Dr. Stiener says......." Then when they are asked to show the
)references to when and where "Steiner says," there are blank stares.
)
Percedol:
The habit to repeat :'RS said...' is seen as quite negative. One
should elaborate through personal experience.
)Percedol, your statement above is a platitudinous pronouncement that means
)nothing in the face of the processes of Waldorf practices. May I suggest
)that you begin directing your attention toward the way Waldorf schools
)actually attempt to manifest these lofty ideas.
Percedol:
Right! Because I am not talking about W. education. I don't know much
about it. I may look into it, though.
The practices, e.g, freedom,
)often are so far from the precepts that one would have to conclude that all
)the connecting neurotransmitters in Waldorf teachers' brains are flowing in
)etheric soup. The teachers seem to think that logical, connective thinking
)is bad and is not also a gift from God.
)
)Waldorf teaching does not leave the student free. In fact it does not start
)out free nor does not end up free. Please go visit, on more than one
)occasion, your local Waldorf school. Observe the controls that are placed on
)the students. (They can only play with certain toys, etc.)
Percedol:
My understanding is that the child should adequate to discipline and
models. The child should not be left free to do what he/she wants in
terms of discipline. I think that there is a bad tendency to let
children do what they want and never say 'no' to what they ask. Then
we are surprised if we produce a generation of spoiled teenagers.
When there is an
)exercise of "freedom" there is a corresponding lapse of responsibility.
)Often children are permitted to put themselves in dangerous situations
)because the teacher thinks this is an exercise of freedom.
Percedol:
Freedom is an inner thing. In the sense of the PoF. I would not
confused it with 'freedom' meant as 'doing things without rules'.
So again I say
)many of the teachers do not know what freedom means nor how to practice it.
Percedol:
Quite possible!
)
)You know, Percedol, I have been observing the comments on this site for over
)two year and I have not seen one person defending Walforf and Anthroposophy
)with any sort of logical responses. More often than not I witness defenders
)attempting to discredit the person who points out in Steiner's writings some
)contradictory statements Steiner himself made.
Percedol:
Give me an example and I'll see.
If Steiner said it, Steiner
)said it. So I ask you, how do you reconcile in your mind the contradictions
)Steiner made?
Percedol:
There are things that some people think are contradictions but are
not. Please, give an example.
Apparently, YOU would like for those of us who are seeking to
)keep Waldorf out of the US public schools arena to close our collective eyes
)to the many misrepresentations made and are being made by Waldorf. Why is
)this?
Percedol:
This is a problem of you americans. I may rather be interested in
funding of W. schools in Italy. We have different Constitutions.
What do you need from us so you can be FREE from Steiner and
)Anthroposophy?
Percedol:
What do you mean by being free from S.? About A., I am not a member
and I have very little contact with the Society.
Most of the people I meet are not involved in A. at all.
Based on your statement above you think you are free.
Percedol:
Struggling for. It's a long way to Tipperary...
How so
)when you can not let your mind delve in obvious sense perceptions such as
)the statements Steiner wrote? You can not "see," therefore you can not be
)free. I venture to add most Waldorf teachers are not free.
Percedol:
Most likely!
You see they can
)not see uniquely, individualistic children, they see Steiner's theories not
)the children. Therefore, they can not help an individual child attain his or
)her freedom because they attempt to wrap them in Steiner,s theory. I urge
)you to go see for yourself. May I also suggest for other DoF's that you join
)PLANS and help us keep Waldorf out of Public schools in America.
Percedol:
That's a problem for americans. I am here because of some allegations
to RS and MS. If PLANS would not involve RS in this dispute I would
not be here.
In doing so
)you will be in a position to have Waldorf schools teach Anthroposophy and be
)left alone.
Percedol:
I heard that W. schools are not teaching A.
You will also be in a position to help Waldorf weed out
)inconsistences, unqualified teachers qua mini-gurus, denounce Steiner's
)racist theories
Percedol:
There are no racist theories in RS's teachings. See also my last post
as he spoke.
and put forth its TRUTHS.
)
)Oh yes I have been involved with Waldorf schools. My son went through nine
)years of it because of my blindness.
Percedol:
How is he going now?
I support the existence of Waldorf and
)simultaneously denounce its encroachment into Public schools. In my view
)Waldorf schools have an issue with freedom because they themselves refuse to
)announce and be what they really are. A Ýperson (or organization) can not be
)free until he or she has attained the courage to be. In the case of Waldorf
)this means that when Waldorf can overtly state its beliefs, all of them, and
)state precisely how they fulfill those beliefs in everyday practices in the
)classroom and administratively they begin to develop the "courage to be" and
)hence to live in freedom. They can not teach others how to be free by living
)a lie! Ý
)
Percedol:
As far as I know RS was quite clear that in W. schools A. is not taught.
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 19:51:26 -0400
From: Gary Bonhiver (gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Re: Percedol's re-replies
on 5/23/02 3:35 PM, Percedol netscape.net at Percedol netscape.net wrote:
) Percedol:
) The fact is that those who study RS (and one may forget that study is the
) first step of the discipline that one does together with the
practice, because
) is part of the practice) have a great care for the truth.
)
) And also that THERE IS NO GURU today. Each one is on their own. Like it or
) not. Time for gurus is over. Today the 'guru' leaves the student Ýfree! (Read
) the PoF!)
Percedol, you unwittingly illustrated our contention that Steiner is a Guru
PERFECTLY with your last words "(Read the PoF!)", exhorting us to READ
STEINER -- your GURU. The guru's words live on through his initiates!
Where is the ORIGINAL thought in Anthroposophy that cannot somehow be traced
back to something that "Steiner said"?
Thanks, Percedol!
...Gary
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 20:18:04 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Percedol's re-replies
Repeating himself, Percedol says:
)As can be read above RS clearly include everybody without distinction of
)RACE, LANGUAGE, SOCIAL STATUS, etc.
No, that's not at all what he does in the passage you quoted. He says that
the message of the "exalted ones" is intended for all of humankind, as long
as they become a "unified humanity", which for Steiner means abolishing
"separate" identities like Jewishness. The last sentence you quoted from
Steiner reads: "And the meaning of the theosophical movement that will make
it into a great movement and force for the future." Theosophical doctrine in
1905 was explicitly racist, centered on the "great difference between the
intellectual capacities of races," the distinction between "inferior races"
and "more developed" races, and the innate superiority of the "perfect"
Aryans. Theosophy was also, of course, explicitly antisemitic. Steiner
endorsed all of these views during his tenure as head of German theosophy.
Since we're repeating ourselves, here are two typical passages that I quoted
for you back in March, from the bible of the theosophical movement at the
time, Blavatsky's Secret Doctrine, which Steiner also promoted as the divine
wisdom of the "exalted ones":
"Though all were of one common origin, yet, for reasons given, their
potentialities and mental capabilities, outward or physical forms, and
future characteristics, were very different. Some superior, others inferior,
to suit the Karma of the various reincarnating Monads, which could not all
be of the same degree of purity in their last births in other Worlds. This
accounts for the difference of races, the inferiority of the savage and
other human varieties." (II 259)
"Mankind is obviously divided into God-informed men and lower human
creatures. The intellectual difference between the Aryan and other civilized
nations and such savages as the South Sea Islanders is inexplicable on any
other grounds. No amount of culture, no generations of training amid
civilization, could raise such human specimens as the Bushmen, the Veddhas
of Ceylon, and some African tribes, to the same intellectual level as the
Aryans, the Semites, and the Turanians so-called. The "Sacred Spark" is
missing in them, and it is they who are the only inferior races on the
globe, now happily -- owing to the wise adjustment of Nature which ever
works in that direction -- fast dying out. Verily mankind is "of one blood,"
but not of the same essence." (II 439)
None of these racist doctrines prevented Blavatsky, Steiner, or the other
theosophists from declaring their movement open to all people. This
obviously does not cancel out the racist character of theosophy's teachings,
it simply indicates that pseudo-spiritual charlatans are happy to modify and
repackage their basic message when necessary to fit the expectations of
their various audiences. That is what the passage you quoted shows us,
Percedol.
You also said:
)That's because the teachers who speak for the Christ have no prejudice of
)race, language, etc.
Steiner wasn't speaking for Christ, he was speaking for theosophy.
)But some people criticize RS and other teachers like MS moved by the spirit
)of aversion with allegations of racism, etc.
Yes, some of us do indeed have an aversion to racism. Why don't you?
)The spirit of aversion is always looking for excuses and targets to express
)itself. It is much more difficult to change something within ourselves than
)to criticize others. The latter is a much easier way and corresponds to the
)spirit of aversion.
You still haven't grasped the difference between criticism and hatred, not
to mention the difference between people and the ideas they espouse.
)But then there are people who think that RS could have been racist or
)anti-semitic.
Yes, because they have read his racist and antisemitic writings.
)I wonder what makes them so eager to attack the figure of teachings of RS.
Everybody who is opposed to racism and antisemitism has a duty to criticize
these teachings.
)There is so much spirit of aversion against the teachings of RS that one
)may wonder: 'How can all this spirit of aversion be good?'
A spirit of aversion against racism and antisemitism is always good. Think
of just how good this would have been in the Germany that Steiner taught in.
Don't you wish that his audience had had a strong spirit of aversion to
racism and antisemitism? Don't you think it is a tragedy that they did not?
)What moves these people against the the path that expresses a "Philosophy
)of Freedom"?
What moves us is the profound unfreedom contained in this path.
)One should seriously consider what moves him/her against the teachings of
)RS.
The racist and antisemitic aspects of these teachings are what move us.
)The fact is that those who study RS (and one may forget that study is the
)first step of the discipline that one does together with the practice,
)because is part of the practice) have a great care for the truth.
What you're calling "practice" is incompatible with study. Anybody who
believes in this "practice" in the way you do will be unable to study
Steiner's works. Your "practice" depends on credulity and the exclusion of
critical thought and is therefore incapable of discerning truth.
Peter S.
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 02:21:41 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Percedol's re-replies
Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) on 5/23/02 3:35 PM, Percedol netscape.net at Percedol netscape.net
) wrote:
)
) ) Percedol:
) ) The fact is that those who study RS (and one may forget that study is
) ) the
) ) first step of the discipline that one does together with the practice,
) ) because
) ) is part of the practice) have a great care for the truth.
) )
) ) And also that THERE IS NO GURU today. Each one is on their own. Like it
) ) or
) ) not. Time for gurus is over. Today the 'guru' leaves the student Ýfree!
) ) (Read
) ) the PoF!)
)
) Percedol, you unwittingly illustrated our contention that Steiner is a
) Guru
) PERFECTLY with your last words "(Read the PoF!)", exhorting us to READ
) STEINER -- your GURU.
Percedol:
It isn't so. You have books, maybe friends and that's it. There is no
guru there to tell you what to do and if you are doing right. You have
to find out by yourself. No gurus around today.
The guru's words live on through his initiates!
Percedol:
There were two initiates after RS. Who are referring to?
) Where is the ORIGINAL thought in Anthroposophy that cannot somehow be
) traced
) back to something that "Steiner said"?
)
) Thanks, Percedol!
)
) ...Gary
Percedol:
The work of Scaligero. And then something from other people today.
Most of it outside the Society I think.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 03:25:59 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Percedol's re-replies
Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
) Repeating himself, Percedol says:
)
) )As can be read above RS clearly include everybody without distinction of
) )
) )RACE, LANGUAGE, SOCIAL STATUS, etc.
)
) No, that'