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-- Topica Digest --
RE: General remarks
By jaquesdm msn.com
puff piece in Washington Times
By dan dandugan.com
Deby Re: General remarks
By sarinamcdonald msn.com
Re: puff piece in Washington Times
By sarinamcdonald msn.com
Re: Kimberton Waldorf School graduates
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: puff piece in Washington Times
By dan dandugan.com
Re: puff piece in Washington Times
By Gary goodwinter.com
happy birthday, PLANS
By dan dandugan.com
Re: General remarks
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 18:19:31 +0000
From: (jaquesdm msn.com)
Subject: RE: General remarks
=?iso-8859-1?q?Dirk=20Klose?= wrote:
)
) Your gross generalizations do not fit with reality.
) How many children have you interviewed etc. The same
) questions I can ask you.
) It is my own experience what I wrote. And I am
) grateful that I could make those experiences. I don't
) believe you guys here really want to perceive anything
) but the negative.
This really wont do Dirk. Most of us speak from our own experiences too.
"Stressing the negative" is a well recognised anthro cliche, generally
used where anthroposophists know that this or that aspect is somewhat
distasteful, so lets not discuss it.
) So I don't really feel like sharing
) any of my personal views. I doubt that you want to
) know them.
Well, apart from being somewhat petulant, one must ask just where you
are coming from Dirk. How might one differentiate between your
*personal* views or thats of Steiner?
Many of us attempted to work within the bounds of a *personal* view,
only to find ourselves marginalised, sometimes demonised.
Dirk, I suggest that a *personal* view is incompatible with Steinerism.
) Rather do I spend my time with the
) practical work than theorizing.
) Why don't you all make the step beyond critcizing and
) offer a healthy alternative to Waldorf.
That again is something we tried to do.
)Education is
) really a tough job. Maybe you already you and in this
) case I wish you good luck.Yet I doubt it and in this
) case I am prejudiced.
) Anything that will improve the education of the
) children is good work.
Agreeed. Can you suggest then why anything not precisely within the
sphere of Steiner influence is treated with such contempt?
) I already imagine what you all think now. Go ahead and
) post it. It seems to me that you don't get anywhere
) here.
)
Dirk, I wonder just what you mean by this? Did you think that (I for
instance) coming from a seven year association with Anthroposophy would
be persuaded to see the error of my ways? No, this group offers a
platform to ask the questions which Anthroposophy would prefer to leave
un-asked.
) Peace
)
and you.
Davy
)
)
)
)
)
)
) __________________________________________________________________
)
) Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
) Logos und Klingelt–ne f¸rs Handy bei http://sms.yahoo.de
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:10:19 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: puff piece in Washington Times
There's a Waldorf puff piece in the Washington Times:
http://washingtontimes.com/entertainment/20030601-090111-8886r.htm
I don't suppose there'd be much point in writing to the editor--the
Washington Times itself is owned by a religious cult.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:58:10 -0700
From: "Sarina McDonald" (sarinamcdonald msn.com)
Subject: Deby Re: General remarks
Wow, Deby, what a neat-looing school! Good for you.
:-)
Sarina
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:01:15 -0700
From: "Sarina McDonald" (sarinamcdonald msn.com)
Subject: Re: puff piece in Washington Times
) I don't suppose there'd be much point in
) writing to the editor--the Washington Times
) itself is owned by a religious cult.
It is???
S.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:27:29 -0400
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Kimberton Waldorf School graduates
Did anyone notice that in several cases, students have two colleges listed
after their names? (Example: John Doe will attend either College X or
College Y.) I don't get this. Are we to presume that the students with two
colleges listed were accepted at both and are just now deciding where to go?
Lisa
) From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 16:52:18 -0700
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Kimberton Waldorf School graduates
)
) Kimberton Waldorf School has a list of their 2003 high school
) graduating class's destinations on their web page,
)
) http://www.kimberton.org.
)
) What I find interesting is that four out of the twenty-three
) graduates will be going on to Anthroposophical institutions. That's a
) 17% recruitment rate. I wonder what percentage of a Catholic high
) school's graduates go on to a seminary.
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:43:12 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: puff piece in Washington Times
) ) I don't suppose there'd be much point in
)) writing to the editor--the Washington Times
)) itself is owned by a religious cult.
)
)It is???
Rev. Moon's.
-Dan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:43:26 -0400
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Re: puff piece in Washington Times
on 6/30/03 4:01 PM, Sarina McDonald at sarinamcdonald msn.com wrote:
)) I don't suppose there'd be much point in
)) writing to the editor--the Washington Times
)) itself is owned by a religious cult.
)
) It is???
)
) S.
Note that this is the Washington TIMES, not the esteemed Washington POST.
The WT is owned by the Moonies.
...Gary
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:46:50 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: happy birthday, PLANS
People for Legal and Nonsectarian Schools (PLANS), Inc., will be five
years old tomorrow, July 1.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 00:44:25 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: General remarks
To Dirk, et al:
I was going through some files this evening and came across this article by
fellow list member, Peter Staudenmaier. I remember feeling uncomfortable
reading his articles a couple of years ago. At that time I was trying to
convince myself that there was no racist element in Anthroposophy and that
Threefolding really *was* a potential source for the betterment of
humankind. I really was trying to *not take things out of context* as the
need to believe in *something* was so very strong. And, of course, there
was the sense of community in Waldorf. All that striving for community.
Who would not want a better tomorrow for our children? A "sense" of
community....
So, the Peters and Dans and Debras of the world took a big sharp pin to my
bubble. It was not easy to pop. The bubble took years to make. It
contained lofty ideals, family, as well as what I believed were the seeds
to a better world. It was impervious to all but the mightiest of tools.
Try as they might, those Waldorf Critics were not quite able to burst the
dream. They scratched the surface, though, and I could see the writing on
the wall. I didn't recognize the writing at first. Eventually, however, I
knew whose handwriting I was reading. I had a few books and I read them -
really read them from the real *I.* I began to read most nights for weeks
and months via the Internet. Finally, the bubble popped with a big loud
BANG! Woke me up. Who popped the bubble at Walden Pond? Rudolf Steiner.
http://www.elib.com/Steiner/index.php
I digress. I suggest reading Peter's work - even it is uncomfortable to do
so. It's almost like engaging in *inner work* from the outside. While not
always easy it has afforded me my Freedom. And that makes all the
difference.
-Walden
An excerpt from: The Art of Avoiding History
by Peter Staudenmaier
Reply to G–ran Fant, "The Art of Making White into Black"
http://www.waldorfcritics.com/active/articles/Art_of_Avoiding_History.html
Anthroposophy can, after all, be viewed as an attempt to bridge occultism
and rationalism, the esoteric and the practical, mysticism and humanism. But
this attempt failed in interwar Germany because it ignored its own political
context, and was consequently drawn into the orbit of mass barbarism.
Anthroposophy's failure, from this perspective, is an object lesson in the
perils of spiritualized politics. Its latter-day practitioners would do well
to heed this lesson.
For now, however, the lesson remains unlearned. G–ran Fant is so taken with
"the great, inspiring wholeness" of Steiner's teachings that he has allowed
his critical faculties to be incapacitated. His unwillingness to come to
terms with anthroposophy's racist, nationalist, and pro-fascist legacy is
typical of far too many contemporary anthroposophists. Indeed this defensive
and evasive attitude seems to be most common among relatively liberal
anthroposophists. There are many readily available sources that describe and
analyze anthroposophy's reactionary heritage; progressive anthroposophists
have no excuse for continuing to ignore them. Fant's reply exemplifies not
so much the denial of history as the avoidance of history, the refusal to
engage with a compromised past in a dignified and honest way. Until
anthroposophists overcome this self-exculpatory abdication of moral
responsibility, their claims to represent an enlightened and tolerant
doctrine will remain insincere.
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1078
-- Topica Digest --
=?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_K=FChlewind_on_=22Star_Children=22?=
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FChlewind?= on "Star Children"
By snell gv.net
Re: puff piece in Washington Times
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: puff piece in Washington Times
By momof2gals mindspring.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 08:30:30 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_K=FChlewind_on_=22Star_Children=22?=
This kind of mystification (slathering soul-talk all over the subject of
children with special needs; never getting around to the actual skills
they may need help with) does such a disservice to the children it is
supposedly helping, it makes me angry. You're right, Dan, that the main
point is self-serving - it just happens that what these children
supposedly need is exactly what Waldorf offers everyone else anyway.
Doesn't Waldorf say *all* children "live in a picture-like or feeling
'thinking' instead of a linear, conceptual thinking" (or ought to if
their parents weren't screwing them up)? The "special" cases in Waldorf,
the children who need an "extra lesson," always just get more of the
same. The rhetoric places anyone who would do differently for the child
in the wrong. If you would actually try to teach a "star child"
something, you're an insensitive brute destroying their "spiritual soul
structure."
"The Research Bulletin of the Research Institute for Waldorf Education
(sounds scientific, doesn't it!) Vol. VIII No. 2 (June 2003) has an
article by Georg K¸lewind "In What Respect are Star Children
Different?"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 11:06:57 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: RE: =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FChlewind?= on "Star Children"
)This kind of mystification (slathering soul-talk all over the subject of
)children with special needs; never getting around to the actual skills
)they may need help with) does such a disservice to the children it is
)supposedly helping, it makes me angry. You're right, Dan, that the main
)point is self-serving - it just happens that what these children
)supposedly need is exactly what Waldorf offers everyone else anyway.
)Doesn't Waldorf say *all* children "live in a picture-like or feeling
)'thinking' instead of a linear, conceptual thinking" (or ought to if
)their parents weren't screwing them up)?
Debra:
Steiner lectured to "teachers and doctors" about a child who was
"restless and fidgety - a backward little boy, still very young, who
has not learned to speak and is behindhand with all the training he
should have received in the first period of life."
. . .[I]t is a relief to hear that you will not have the mother there
with you. But with a child of this kind, it will, in any case, be
imperative to hold your own - even with a certain obstinacy - in the
face of the demands and expectations of the parents. . . The parents
of such a child do not, and cannot, know what is right and necessary
for him."
Steiner prescribed "tone Eurythmy" and "rhythmical sentences, first
forwards and then backwards," followed with a sequence of vowels.
(First forwards then backwards, of course.)
Education for SpecialNeeds - The Curative Education Course, Rudolf
Steiner, Rudolf Steiner Press, 1998, pp.189 -191
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:24:20 -0400
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: puff piece in Washington Times
Even though the Times *is* owned by the Moonies, there *is* sense in writing
to them.
I know several people who have worked for the Washington Times and none of
them ever felt that they had to censor their stories or slant them in any
particular way. It was, they said, like working for any other newspaper. (No
need to say here that the Washington Times is considered a "conservative"
newspaper by virtue of its editorials, just as the Washington Post is
considered "liberal" by virtue of its editorials.)
I actually was more surprised that the Times' reporter was taken in by
Waldorf's pretty facade than I would be if the Post did a similar story. In
my experience, reporters who are liberal politically and philosophically
tend to be more open and accepting of things that look New Agey than are the
more conservative reporters I know. The liberals would put that under the
rubric of being "open minded" and "tolerant."
This goes for all people, of course, not just reporters. Think about it. The
evangelical Christians who are largely politically right wing were among the
first people to stand up and say that Waldorf schools are religious, occult
schools.
Lisa
) From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:10:19 -0700
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: puff piece in Washington Times
)
) There's a Waldorf puff piece in the Washington Times:
)
) http://washingtontimes.com/entertainment/20030601-090111-8886r.htm
)
) I don't suppose there'd be much point in writing to the editor--the
) Washington Times itself is owned by a religious cult.
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:25:15 -0400
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: puff piece in Washington Times
It is owned by the Rev. Sun Myung Moon, the leader of the so-called
"Moonies." Rev. Moon said he started the paper as a bastion of free speech
because he wants to fight Communism. (He is from North Korea, I believe.)
Lisa
) From: Sarina McDonald (sarinamcdonald msn.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:01:15 -0700
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Re: puff piece in Washington Times
)
)) I don't suppose there'd be much point in
)) writing to the editor--the Washington Times
)) itself is owned by a religious cult.
)
) It is???
)
) S.
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1079
-- Topica Digest --
New booklet
By ulfva telia.com
Ritter
By ulfva telia.com
Admin: web counter 122,090
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 19:20:01 +0200
From: "Ylva Eliasson" (ulfva telia.com)
Subject: New booklet
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hello waldorfcritics!
Does anyone here know about Herbert Kopf or/and Bodo von Plato?
Theese two have written a book about "The biodynamic movement during
second world war" Thomas Luthi from the antropsosofic movement in
J”rna, Sweden is giving an account of it in the latest number of the
magazine "Kultura". In this book you can read that the antroposofic
movement was forbidden during the nazi era, but that the biodynamic
method was quite appreciated and therefore was the last to be
stopped. Once, when 200 farmers were assembled at (a farm) Marienh–he
they receaved a letter from Rudolf Hess where he expressed
appreciation for "serious-minded and hard work" and for "returning to
the natural" They also tell about a reverse document written by a
professor G Nolte that was spread free in a million ex.(poor
antroposophists!!!)
Is this a true story?
Ylva Eliasson
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 22:34:36 +0200
From: "Ylva Eliasson" (ulfva telia.com)
Subject: Ritter
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Talking about Washington Times I¥d like to mention that a local paper
in (S–dert”lje near to ) J”rna which is the antroposofical centre in
Sweden had a documentary sequence - 10 I believe - about the
antroposophists. It was all very positive - they just mentioned in a
short note that there had been some criticism against the movement.
(That criticism was a half a year ongoing serial debate that I
initiated in another local paper.)
One statement they made was that a man, Gustav Ritter, escaped from
Germany to Sweden ( 193?) because Hitler wished to make him a school
manager. Why would he? Does anybody know?
When I ask the same question to antroposophists here or to the paper
I get no answer. They say he was a brilliant (medicine )pedagogue.
It is also impossible to have a "letter-to-the-editor" published in
that paper if it is critical against antroposophists.
Ylva Eliasson
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 23:14:14 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: web counter 122,090
On July 1, 2003, the PLANS web site had registered 122,090 visitors
since August 12, 1996. (Visitors, not hits. Repeats on the same day
are not counted. Thanks to Web-Counter: http://www.digits.com.)
We had 2708 visitors in June, averaging 90 per day.
Hit counters give much higher but less meaningful numbers, because
they count every page and image viewed. The hits on our site in the
month of June totaled 220,144, averaging 7,338 per day.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1080
-- Topica Digest --
Re: New booklet
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: Ritter
By pstaud hotmail.com
biodynamics in WWII
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: biodynamics in WWII
By ulfva telia.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 12:58:07 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: New booklet
Hi Ylva,
I've never heard of Herbert Kopf, but Bodo von Plato is a prominent
anthroposophist and member of the Board of Directors of the General
Anthroposophical Society in Dornach. I checked on-line, and it looks like
the book you mention is an overall history of biodynamics, published two
years ago by an anthroposophic press, rather than a book specifically about
the biodynamic movement during World War II. But perhaps you mean a new book
that I haven't come across.
What you describe is indeed true (with the possible exception of the last
line about a document by a G Nolte, which I don't know anything about); many
leading Nazis were strongly interested in and supportive of biodynamic
farming, and much of the leadership of the biodynamic movement was solidly
pro-Nazi. The biodynamic movement wasn't suppressed until mid-1941, after
their chief protector, Hess, flew to Britain; and even after that point
there were still many instances of collusion between biodynamic growers and
the Nazis, including a network of biodynamic plantations at major
concentration camps, from Dachau to Auschwitz. I am away from my books and
files for the summer so I can't give you lots of details, but I will try to
post a summary of what we know about this convergence between anthroposophy
and Nazism. A number of scholarly studies have appeared in recent years that
address this topic. If you read German, I could recommend some books and
articles.
Peter Staudenmaier
)Does anyone here know about Herbert Kopf or/and Bodo von Plato? Theese two
)have written a book about "The biodynamic movement during second world war"
) Thomas Luthi from the antropsosofic movement in J”rna, Sweden is giving
)an account of it in the latest number of the magazine "Kultura". In this
)book you can read that the antroposofic movement was forbidden during the
)nazi era, but that the biodynamic method was quite appreciated and
)therefore was the last to be stopped. Once, when 200 farmers were assembled
)at (a farm) Marienh–he they receaved a letter from Rudolf Hess where he
)expressed appreciation for "serious-minded and hard work" and for
)"returning to the natural" They also tell about a reverse document written
)by a professor G Nolte that was spread free in a million ex.(poor
)antroposophists!!!)
)
)Is this a true story?
_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 13:21:29 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Ritter
Hi again Ylva,
the story of Gustav Ritter is one of Sune Nordwall's favorites, and his
version differs considerably from the one you report from the newspaper
series. Sune has a marked interest in detailing the number of
anthroposophists from Jewish families who fled the Nazis and came to Sweden
(he thinks this is a refutation of Steiner's antisemitism), and he mentions
Ritter as one of these Jewish refugee anthroposophists; you can find an
example here:
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/two-mythologies.htm
According to Sune, Ritter was Austrian and fled to Sweden after the Nazis
annexed Austria; he founded the Mikaelgarden in Jaerna. If Sune is right
that Ritter was of Jewish origin, then it can hardly be the case that Hitler
wished to appoint him to any managerial position. Sune's version sounds more
plausible to me than the version from the newspaper.
One rather important fact that anthroposophists today prefer to forget is
that anthroposophists from Jewish backgrounds fled the Nazis not because
they were anthroposophists, but because they counted as Jews in the eyes of
the Nazis, and their gentile anthroposophist comrades in Germany, Austria,
and Switzerland were not always particularly supportive of them. Another
very prominent Austrian anthroposophist of Jewish origin, Ludwig Thieben,
wrote the definitive anthroposophical account of the "Jewish question": a
book called "The Mystery of Jewry", which argues, in line with Steiner, that
the very existence of Jews is an anachronism that needs to be overcome. But
you're unlikely to learn anything about that history from anthroposophist
sources.
Peter S.
)One statement they made was that a man, Gustav Ritter, escaped from Germany
)to Sweden ( 193?) because Hitler wished to make him a school manager. Why
)would he? Does anybody know?
)
)When I ask the same question to antroposophists here or to the paper I get
)no answer. They say he was a brilliant (medicine )pedagogue.
_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 14:14:16 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: biodynamics in WWII
Well before the start of the second world war, a number of leading Nazis had
become intensely interested in Rudolf Steiner's approach to farming,
biodynamic agriculture. Some of these Nazi bosses were also intrigued by
additional aspects of anthroposophy (and some of them became
anthroposophists themselves), while others were primarily concerned with
promoting anthroposophical methods of cultivation, which they perceived as
more natural than standard agricultural approaches. The best-known of these
pro-anthroposophical Nazis was Rudolf Hess, Hitler's deputy, but others were
just as important in providing direct support for biodynamics by the Nazi
state: R. Walther Darre, Hitler's minister of agriculture; Alwin Seifert,
the Nazis' "Reich Advocate for the Landscape"; and Oswald Pohl, chief of the
concentration camp system, among others.
The leadership of the biodynamic movement, for its part, was
enthusiastically pro-Nazi; their journal vigorously promoted Darre's
agricultural policies, and put Hitler's picture on their title page early in
1939. The movement's leader, Erhard Bartsch, offered to collaborate with the
SS in its plans for re-settling the conquered territories in eastern Europe
with 'Aryan' farmers. Because of this ongoing sympathetic relationship
between top Nazis and biodynamic growers, the biodynamic movement was
largely spared the vicissitudes that beset other anthroposophical projects,
which were caught in a tug of war between opposing factions within the Nazi
hierarchy.
When the war began, Nazi support for biodynamic undertakings did not slacken
in the least; in fact it intensified. Bartsch's estate at Marienhoehe became
a gathering point for environmentally-minded Nazis and anthroposophists;
Darre visited there, and Hess sent his greetings. Before Darre fell from
power, he attempted to establish biodynamics -- which he renamed 'farming
according to the laws of life' -- as the officially favored and subsidized
form of agriculture in the Third Reich.
After Hess's flight to Britain in 1941, the anti-anthroposophist faction
within the Nazi leadership seized the opportunity to crack down on the
remaining anthroposophical institutions, including biodynamics. But in an
intriguing turn of events, SS head Heinrich Himmler himself took a notable
interest in biodynamics, and arranged for a large-scale conversion of
several SS enterprises to biodynamic methods. The most notorious of these
were the biodynamic plantations at major concentration camps like Dachau and
Auschwitz, where the labor was performed by camp inmates. A leading
anthroposophist, Franz Lippert, who had been head gardener at Weleda for
many years (along with Bartsch, he participated in Steiner's 1924
agriculture course, where biodynamics was born), volunteered to oversee the
plantation at Dachau, and joined the SS. Well into the war, he continued to
express a fanatical commitment to Nazism. His stint at Dachau did not
discredit Lippert in the eyes of his fellow anthroposophists; after the war,
he remained a central contributor to biodynamic journals, and
anthroposophists continue to defend his wartime activities to this day.
Much of this history is recounted in two books by British historian Anna
Bramwell: Blood and Soil (a study of Darre), and Ecology in the 20th Century
(which includes a chapter on the Nazis titled "The Steiner Connection"). I
have strong reservations about several aspects of Bramwell's work, but for
those who would like an introduction to the issue in English, these books
are the most thorough source. Two books have recently been published in
Germany that address the issue at length; one is a study of Seifert written
by Charlotte Reitsam, which emphasizes Seifert's anthroposophical
associations. The other is a book about the biodynamic farms at
concentration camps: Wolfgang Jacobeit and Christoph Kopke, Die
Biologisch-Dynamische Wirtschafstweise im KZ. Anthroposophists themselves
generally prefer to ignore the topic entirely, though there have been brief
treatments by the more historically inclined anthroposophists, such as Arfst
Wagner or Norbert Deuchert. The massive book on anthroposophists during the
Third Reich by anthroposophist Uwe Werner has very little to say on the
subject that is either useful or reliable. Whenever I get around to writing
again on anthroposophy's history, I plan to give more attention to the
biodynamics-Nazi connection.
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 22:37:15 +0200
From: "Ylva Eliasson" (ulfva telia.com)
Subject: Re: biodynamics in WWII
A lot to read - but I will (and have some.) Thank you so much Peter
Staudenmaier.
I¥m not sure if I misunderstand, but I can¥t find any relevance for
the anthroposophical accusations against you for forgery. All I have
read before at the "Vetenskap och Folkbildning" sight is, as far as I
can see, thourogly supported by a source list.
But I have myself, in the answers from anthros to my "letters-
to-editor" ,(is there a better word?) experienced their very special
technic of arguing. They first of all try not to answer the question,
next is to point out a very small thing to focus on to avoid what¥s
the real point. Very often they accuse their criticis for persecution
- that is what they say you are doing (when I referr to your
articles, calling you disparaging "an activist")!
Have you heard of a Pentecostalist pastor Sigvard Sv”rd? He wrote two
books some years ago examining anthroposophy from the view of a
christian. I¥ve talked to him and he also sent me some material about
what is called "the class" ( for the initiated) at first lead by
Gustav Ritter, later on by Arne Klingborg. I also had some
information about certain cases that should be quite aggravating
circumstances if authorities took notice of them. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND
WHY THEY SEEM NOT TO CARE ! Each case is regarded a private one and
no-one seem to notice the connection to anthroposophy.
Ylva Eliasson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:14 PM
Subject: biodynamics in WWII
) Well before the start of the second world war, a number of leading Nazis had
) become intensely interested in Rudolf Steiner's approach to farming,
) biodynamic agriculture. Some of these Nazi bosses were also intrigued by
) additional aspects of anthroposophy (and some of them became
) anthroposophists themselves), while others were primarily concerned with
) promoting anthroposophical methods of cultivation, which they perceived as
) more natural than standard agricultural approaches. The best-known of these
) pro-anthroposophical Nazis was Rudolf Hess, Hitler's deputy, but others were
) just as important in providing direct support for biodynamics by the Nazi
) state: R. Walther Darre, Hitler's minister of agriculture; Alwin Seifert,
) the Nazis' "Reich Advocate for the Landscape"; and Oswald Pohl, chief of the
) concentration camp system, among others.
)
) The leadership of the biodynamic movement, for its part, was
) enthusiastically pro-Nazi; their journal vigorously promoted Darre's
) agricultural policies, and put Hitler's picture on their title page early in
) 1939. The movement's leader, Erhard Bartsch, offered to collaborate with the
) SS in its plans for re-settling the conquered territories in eastern Europe
) with 'Aryan' farmers. Because of this ongoing sympathetic relationship
) between top Nazis and biodynamic growers, the biodynamic movement was
) largely spared the vicissitudes that beset other anthroposophical projects,
) which were caught in a tug of war between opposing factions within the Nazi
) hierarchy.
)
) When the war began, Nazi support for biodynamic undertakings did not slacken
) in the least; in fact it intensified. Bartsch's estate at Marienhoehe became
) a gathering point for environmentally-minded Nazis and anthroposophists;
) Darre visited there, and Hess sent his greetings. Before Darre fell from
) power, he attempted to establish biodynamics -- which he renamed 'farming
) according to the laws of life' -- as the officially favored and subsidized
) form of agriculture in the Third Reich.
)
) After Hess's flight to Britain in 1941, the anti-anthroposophist faction
) within the Nazi leadership seized the opportunity to crack down on the
) remaining anthroposophical institutions, including biodynamics. But in an
) intriguing turn of events, SS head Heinrich Himmler himself took a notable
) interest in biodynamics, and arranged for a large-scale conversion of
) several SS enterprises to biodynamic methods. The most notorious of these
) were the biodynamic plantations at major concentration camps like Dachau and
) Auschwitz, where the labor was performed by camp inmates. A leading
) anthroposophist, Franz Lippert, who had been head gardener at Weleda for
) many years (along with Bartsch, he participated in Steiner's 1924
) agriculture course, where biodynamics was born), volunteered to oversee the
) plantation at Dachau, and joined the SS. Well into the war, he continued to
) express a fanatical commitment to Nazism. His stint at Dachau did not
) discredit Lippert in the eyes of his fellow anthroposophists; after the war,
) he remained a central contributor to biodynamic journals, and
) anthroposophists continue to defend his wartime activities to this day.
)
) Much of this history is recounted in two books by British historian Anna
) Bramwell: Blood and Soil (a study of Darre), and Ecology in the 20th Century
) (which includes a chapter on the Nazis titled "The Steiner Connection"). I
) have strong reservations about several aspects of Bramwell's work, but for
) those who would like an introduction to the issue in English, these books
) are the most thorough source. Two books have recently been published in
) Germany that address the issue at length; one is a study of Seifert written
) by Charlotte Reitsam, which emphasizes Seifert's anthroposophical
) associations. The other is a book about the biodynamic farms at
) concentration camps: Wolfgang Jacobeit and Christoph Kopke, Die
) Biologisch-Dynamische Wirtschafstweise im KZ. Anthroposophists themselves
) generally prefer to ignore the topic entirely, though there have been brief
) treatments by the more historically inclined anthroposophists, such as Arfst
) Wagner or Norbert Deuchert. The massive book on anthroposophists during the
) Third Reich by anthroposophist Uwe Werner has very little to say on the
) subject that is either useful or reliable. Whenever I get around to writing
) again on anthroposophy's history, I plan to give more attention to the
) biodynamics-Nazi connection.
)
) Peter Staudenmaier
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
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)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
) )
)
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1081
-- Topica Digest --
RE: biodynamics in WWII
By Percedol netscape.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 04:01:49 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: biodynamics in WWII
Ylva Eliasson wrote:
)
) A lot to read - but I will (and have some.) Thank you so much Peter
) Staudenmaier.
)
) I¥m not sure if I misunderstand, but I can¥t find any relevance for the
) anthroposophical accusations against you for forgery.
P:
To begin from the title of the lecture Peter Steudenmeier proposes in
his article as:
"The Mission of Individual European National Souls in Relation to
Nordic-Germanic Mythology."
To which lecture is he referring to, since there is no such lecture?
(And if there is this lecture he can post it here!)
There is, instead a lecture series called:
"Die Mission einzelner Volksselen im zusammenhange mit der
germanisch-nordischen Mythologie" ["The mission of single folk souls in
relation to Nordic-Germanic mythology"], all held in Oslo from June 7 to
June 17, 1910.
Why is Peter writing of a tour in Norway, if it was actually a lecture
series held in Oslo?
Etc.
What questions were not, in your opinion, answered to you about the
spiritual science?
And what cases do you refer to?
) But I have myself, in the answers from anthros to my "letters-
) to-editor" ,(is there a better word?) experienced their very special
) technic of arguing. They first of all try not to answer the question,
) next is to point out a very small thing to focus on to avoid what¥s the
) real point. Very often they accuse their criticis for persecution - that
) is what they say you are doing (when I referr to your articles, calling
) you disparaging "an activist")!
)
I also had some information about certain cases that should be quite
aggravating circumstances if authorities took notice of them. I DO NOT
UNDERSTAND WHY THEY SEEM NOT TO CARE !
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1082
-- Topica Digest --
RE: biodynamics in WWII
By dan dandugan.com
Re: biodynamics in WWII
By ulfva telia.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 11:47:13 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: biodynamics in WWII
)Ylva Eliasson wrote:
))
)) A lot to read - but I will (and have some.) Thank you so much Peter
)) Staudenmaier.
))
)) I*m not sure if I misunderstand, but I can*t find any relevance for the
) ) anthroposophical accusations against you for forgery.
Percedol commented:
)To begin from the title of the lecture Peter Steudenmeier proposes in
)his article as:
)"The Mission of Individual European National Souls in Relation to
)Nordic-Germanic Mythology."
)
)To which lecture is he referring to, since there is no such lecture?
)(And if there is this lecture he can post it here!)
)There is, instead a lecture series called:
)"Die Mission einzelner Volksselen im zusammenhange mit der
)germanisch-nordischen Mythologie" ["The mission of single folk souls in
)relation to Nordic-Germanic mythology"], all held in Oslo from June 7 to
)June 17, 1910.
Everybody knows what lecture series is being referred to. It's silly
to object to Peter's translation of the title. I don't know German,
but it looks accurate to me. One official Anthroposophical
translation of it is:
"The Mission of the Individual Folk Souls in realtion to Teutonic
Mythology: Eleven lectures given in Christiania (Oslo) from 7th to
17th June, 1910"
[Trans. A.H. Parker, Rudolf Steiner Press, London, 1970]
)Why is Peter writing of a tour in Norway, if it was actually a lecture
)series held in Oslo?
)Etc.
That was Peter's mistake, in my opinion a trivial one. For one or two
suddenly very Ahrimanic Anthroposophists, it was cause enough for
them to say he's referring to a lecture that doesn't exist, or a
forgery! That's really silly.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 23:27:49 +0200
From: "Ylva Eliasson" (ulfva telia.com)
Subject: Re: biodynamics in WWII
And i say it again, as an answer to Percedol:
I have experienced their very special
technic of arguing.
They first of all try not to answer the question,
next is to point out a very small thing to focus on to avoid what¥s
the real point. Very often they accuse their criticis for persecution
Ylva
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Dugan" (dan dandugan.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 8:47 PM
Subject: RE: biodynamics in WWII
) )Ylva Eliasson wrote:
) ))
) )) A lot to read - but I will (and have some.) Thank you so much Peter
) )) Staudenmaier.
) ))
) )) I*m not sure if I misunderstand, but I can*t find any relevance for the
) ) ) anthroposophical accusations against you for forgery.
)
) Percedol commented:
)
) )To begin from the title of the lecture Peter Steudenmeier proposes in
) )his article as:
) )"The Mission of Individual European National Souls in Relation to
) )Nordic-Germanic Mythology."
) )
) )To which lecture is he referring to, since there is no such lecture?
) )(And if there is this lecture he can post it here!)
) )There is, instead a lecture series called:
) )"Die Mission einzelner Volksselen im zusammenhange mit der
) )germanisch-nordischen Mythologie" ["The mission of single folk souls in
) )relation to Nordic-Germanic mythology"], all held in Oslo from June 7 to
) )June 17, 1910.
)
) Everybody knows what lecture series is being referred to. It's silly
) to object to Peter's translation of the title. I don't know German,
) but it looks accurate to me. One official Anthroposophical
) translation of it is:
)
) "The Mission of the Individual Folk Souls in realtion to Teutonic
) Mythology: Eleven lectures given in Christiania (Oslo) from 7th to
) 17th June, 1910"
)
) [Trans. A.H. Parker, Rudolf Steiner Press, London, 1970]
)
) )Why is Peter writing of a tour in Norway, if it was actually a lecture
) )series held in Oslo?
) )Etc.
)
) That was Peter's mistake, in my opinion a trivial one. For one or two
) suddenly very Ahrimanic Anthroposophists, it was cause enough for
) them to say he's referring to a lecture that doesn't exist, or a
) forgery! That's really silly.
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
) )
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1083
-- Topica Digest --
Re: biodynamics in WWII
By pstaud hotmail.com
Percedol on forgery
By pstaud hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 21:15:47 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: biodynamics in WWII
Hi Ylva,
your experiences with trying to engage anthroposophists in reasoned dialogue
sound very familiar to me, and I'm sure to many others here. Avoiding the
question seems to count as some sort of virtue with Steiner's followers. The
"forgery" charge is an excellent example; instead of challenging my
interpretation of Steiner's lectures on 'national souls', some
anthroposophists pretend that these lectures don't exist. Percedol's latest
contribution confirms that this dismal procedure is not restricted to a
handful of Scandinavian Steinerites. I think the point of this sort of thing
is simply to distract attention from Steiner's writings, as well as from the
compromised history of the anthroposophical movement. I'm sorry to say that
I have encountered very few fans of Steiner who do not fall into this
pattern. If there are any anthroposophists reading this list who would like
to show a different face to the public, I encourage them to post here.
Peter Staudenmaier
)I¥m not sure if I misunderstand, but I can¥t find any relevance for the
)anthroposophical accusations against you for forgery. All I have read
)before at the "Vetenskap och Folkbildning" sight is, as far as I can see,
)thourogly supported by a source list.
)
)But I have myself, in the answers from anthros to my "letters- to-editor"
),(is there a better word?) experienced their very special technic of
)arguing. They first of all try not to answer the question, next is to point
)out a very small thing to focus on to avoid what¥s the real point. Very
)often they accuse their criticis for persecution - that is what they say
)you are doing (when I referr to your articles, calling you disparaging "an
)activist")!
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Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 22:32:25 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Percedol on forgery
Percedol writes:
)To begin from the title of the lecture Peter Steudenmeier proposes in
)his article as:
)"The Mission of Individual European National Souls in Relation to
)Nordic-Germanic Mythology."
That is exactly how the title of Steiner's Oslo lectures appears in Hans
Mandl's book Vom Geist des Nordens. Mandl was an early anthroposophist, and
his book was published in 1966, three decades before the definitive version
of these lectures was published. At the time I wrote the first draft of my
article, Mandl's book seemed a reliable source, although now that I have
consulted the various published version of the lectures, I think that the
word "European" most likely did not appear in the original title that
Steiner himself used in 1910, assuming he used any title at all in the
actual spoken lectures.
)To which lecture is he referring to, since there is no such lecture?
All of the 1910 Oslo lectures have been published in authorized editions by
anthroposophists themselves; I have three different versions of the book,
and would be happy to mail photocopies of any of the lectures to anyone who
requests it.
)(And if there is this lecture he can post it here!)
Sune Nordwall has already done that, though he has also altered the text in
several places to make it sound less racist. You can find his version of
lecture six ("The Five Root Races of Mankind"), for example, here:
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-6.htm
I highly recommend this chapter, as well as the whole book, to anyone who
would like an introduction to Steiner's racial doctrines.
)There is, instead a lecture series called:
)"Die Mission einzelner Volksselen im zusammenhange mit der
)germanisch-nordischen Mythologie" ["The mission of single folk souls in
)relation to Nordic-Germanic mythology"], all held in Oslo from June 7 to
)June 17, 1910.
Percedol seems to be confused; the word "instead" makes no sense here, since
this is the very same lecture series that my article refers to. As Dan
pointed out, the official English translation of this book is The Mission of
the Individual Folk Souls in Relation to Teutonic Mythology (published in
1970 by the Rudolf Steiner Press). This is the same version that forms the
basis of Sune's on-line version, minus Sune's alterations, of course.
)Why is Peter writing of a tour in Norway, if it was actually a lecture
)series held in Oslo?
If you look very, very carefully at a map, Percedol, you will see that Oslo
is in Norway. (By the way, I don't think that this is a mistake on either my
part or on Mandl's part; it is not unusual, much less incorrect, to refer to
a 'lecture tour' in which all the lectures take place in the same city. The
last time I did a lecture tour of Maryland -- as the organizers of that tour
referred to it -- all of my talks took place within the city of Baltimore.)
As for the anthroposophist term "folk souls": in my opinion, this is a
straightforward translation error. Steiner was hardly the first author to
use the word "Volksseelen"; the term was common among German Idealist
philosophers of the early 19th century, and English translators of Hegel,
for example, have rendered this word as "national souls" for many years. The
German "Volk" (which means nation or people) and the English "folk" are, in
many contexts, false cognates. Steiner goes to considerable lengths, in this
book and elsewhere, to clarify that he means that each specific people or
nation has its own distinctive soul; the longstanding translation "national
souls" conveys this meaning clearly, while the anthroposophist neologism
"folk souls" obscures it.
On the topic of "forgery" in general: I wholeheartedly agree with Dan that
this particular ruse on the part of anthroposophists like Sune and Percedol
is simply silly. Everyone who reads my article can read Steiner's lectures
themselves and decide if I have misrepresented their content. As for the
other ostensible errors in the opening paragraph of my article, the only one
that is even potentially a genuine mistake is directly traceable to the
anthroposophist Hans Mandl; if his version of the title is indeed
inaccurate, the fault obviously lies with him, not with me.
If list members would like to undertake a comparison of my article with the
Steiner works that I cite, including the book on "folk souls", you can find
the final version of the article as a pdf file at the openwaldorf site:
http://www.openwaldorf.com/anthroposophyandecofascism.pdf
This article also surveys the collaboration between the leadership of the
biodynamic movement (along with many other anthroposophists) and the
so-called 'green wing' of the Nazis. I encourage any and all
anthroposophists posting under the moniker "Percedol" (or anybody else, for
that matter) to state their views on this collaboration and its significance
for anthroposophy's history.
Peter Staudenmaier
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==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
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End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1084
-- Topica Digest --
Quackery
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
New person
By Redwoodforest msn.com
how to deal with PLANS and Dan Dugan
By dan dandugan.com
Re: biodynamics in WWII
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:01:31 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Quackery
I could not resist. I tried to imagine Steiner lecturing on occultism and
future epochs *and then* using terms like "quackery" to describe those not
in tune with Anthroposophy. Classic:
From: Evil and the Future of Man
A Lecture By
Rudolf Steiner
Dornach, October 26, 1918
GA 185
http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/EvlMan_index.html
"How often do we see men arising here or there, making this or that proposal
for the social and economic life out of a specious wisdom, and always with
the mistaken idea that it is still possible to make constructive proposals
for the social life without calling in the aid of Spiritual Science. He
alone thinks in accordance with the times who knows that every attempted
proposal concerning the social configuration of mankind in future is the
merest quackery unless it is founded on Spiritual Science. Only he who
realises this, in all its implications, is thinking truly in accordance with
the times. Those who still pay heed to all manner of professorial wisdom on
social economics - arising on the basis of an unspiritual science - are
passing through the present time asleep."
Later... "- how surprising it is to compare the essays on Historic Method
by Hermann Grimm, who stood so fully within the German mid-European culture
of the nineteenth century, with essays on the same subject by Woodrow
Wilson. I have carried out the experiment with great care: it is possible to
take over certain sentences from Woodrow Wilson and insert them bodily in
Hermann Grimm's essays, for they are almost word-for-word identical with
sentences in Hermann Grimm. Again, whole sentences on Historic Method by
Hermann Grimm can be transplanted into the lectures subsequently published
by Woodrow Wilson. And yet there is a radical difference between the two - a
difference which we notice as we read. Not indeed a difference in content:
literal content will be of far less importance for mankind as we evolve
towards the future. The difference is this: in Hermann Grimm, everything -
even passages with which one cannot agree - has been struggled for, it has
been conquered step by step, sentence by sentence. In Woodrow Wilson, on the
other hand, it is as though his own inner demon, by which he is possessed in
his subconsciousness, had instilled it all into his consciousness. On the
one hand the things spring forth directly, at the surface of consciousness;
on the other, they are "inspirations" imparted by a demon out of the
subconscious into the conscious life. Indeed, we must say that what comes
from Woodrow Wilson's side derives from a certain state of possession."
Still later...
"To see through the veils of language: this must come over humanity in
future. Men must acquire the faculty to perceive the inner gesture in
speech. This age will not come to an end - certainly the last stages of it
will go on into the following epoch - but the third millennium will not pass
by till men have come to this: they will no longer listen to another man who
speaks to them as they listen to him nowadays. They will find expressed in
speech and language the human being's dependence on the third Hierarchy - on
the Angels, Archangels and Archai. In speech they will find an expression of
that whereby a man penetrates into the spiritual - into the supersensible.
Then they will hear through speech into the soul of man. Needless to say, we
shall have an altogether different social life when men can hear through
speech the inner soul of man. Much indeed of the force of so-called evil
will have to be transmuted in this way, by man becoming able to hearken to
the things another man is saying and to hear, through his speech, his soul.
Then, when the soul is heard through speech, there will come over man a
wonderful feeling of colour, and through this feeling of colour in speech
men will learn to understand one another internationally. Quite as a matter
of course one sound will call forth the same feeling as the sight of a blue
colour, and another sound the same feeling as the sight of a red colour.
Thus, what will only be felt as warmth when one sees the human being, will
grow as it were into colour when one listens to his speech. One will have to
enter with intimate sympathy into the sound of the speech which is borne
from human lips to human ear. That is the second thing which is
approaching."
Me: It is not simply my intention to poke fun at Steiner here with *his*
claim of unbelievers and "quackery." (I am left wondering if this
translation is correct?) I do believe, however, had I not been told that
Rudolf Steiner was a philosopher, educator, artist, etc., but was clearly a
turn of the century occultist (with strong opinions of those who do not
follow *his* path) our family would have probably avoided
WaldorfAnthroposophy from day one. I suspect I am not alone.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 00:41:02 -0700
From: "Lysa De Thomas" (Redwoodforest msn.com)
Subject: New person
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C344E9.9BAA3DC0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hello,
My name is Lysa. I am new to this group.
A little bit about me:
When I was working on my New York State teaching credential in 1986 I
was very upset with the methods used in traditional education. I
felt that they were very "cookie cutter like" with their basil
reading and math programs. All the emphasis was going solely towards
reading and math at the expense of science, social studies, art,
music, and geography. When I voiced my opinion about this I was sent
to do my student teaching in a local Waldorf School. I was very
excited. I had seen Waldorf children's artwork and had been told
stories of children learning their multiplication tables in new ways.
Yet, when I started working there I was saddened by the lack of any
education at the lower levels and the "miseducation" at the higher
levels. One of my strongest memories was a sixth grader asking how a
copy machine worked. As I started to explain about circuits and such
her teacher came running across the classroom and pushed me out of
the way. "You see," she said, "There are these little gnomes that
live inside. It's all dark and cozy and so they are asleep, yet when
you push the start button a light goes on and they wake up and
quickly copy the paper." I was appalled at this fairytale answer to
a scientific question. They were appalled at my scientific answer
and so I was asked not to return to my student teaching position.
I left the position and was then assigned to a Montessori school
where I was told that children didn't have to do anything unless they
wanted to, and that every problem a child had was because of the
teacher. When a 5 grade boy urinated in the corner of the classroom
I was told it was because he was "expressing" himself. I could not
discipline him. When another went to the bathroom 15 times in a day,
I was asked, "Why are you counting? Why do you care where he is ?"
Needless to say I graduated from school frustrated with every system
of education I had come in contact with.
A few years later, fending off homelessness, I took a Montessori
teaching position. Reluctantly I attended a course where I learned
that so much of what I experienced in the Montessori school was a
complete and utter misinterpretation of the Montessori Philosophy. I
received my Montessori certification with delight and have been
working for the past ten years to help build and train Montessori
teachers that truly understand the method.
Which made me think of Waldorf. I kept on thinking that maybe there
was a misinterpretation of the philosophy or method that had
happened at the Waldorf School where I had done my student teaching.
Yet every time I tried to talk to Waldorf teachers about this I
watched them freeze up. Just hearing the word Montessori put them
out. Although frustrated, I decided that it was probably due to a
long lived philosophical debate and was still interested in the
method. So I started posing as a disillusioned public school teacher.
Yet every time I tried to ask about the program or method I was
referred to expensive long term courses.
Now although I love and believe in the Montessori Method, I always
see room for improvement and wanted to include some of the Waldorf
Art and teaching methods such as stamping out the multiplication
tables. So on and off I have attempted to give Waldorf a chance, yet
to no avail. I even lived with a woman whose 9 year old daughter
attended the Santa Cruz Waldorf School and would try to discuss the
philosophy and method with the different people from the school when
they came to dinner or we attended one of their functions, only to be
given the cold shoulder and a referral to an intro class. In every
intro class I attended my questions were addressed with annoyance
and either a brush off or referral to an expensive class. It was
really frustrating to me at that point because I wasn't just trying
to learn about the method anymore, but I was truly worried about my
housemates 9 year old child who couldn't even write her own name and
NO ONE seemed worried about it. (They did worry about how well she
was knitting though. This amazed me since I wasn't impressed with
her handiwork. My cousins and I had been taught to knit at 4 by my
mother and were more accomplished by 9 then she or any of her friends
were at the school.) After the death of my housemate I decided to
forget about Waldorf for good. But it hasn't been easy. People often
ask me to explain the difference between Waldorf and Montessori, or
worse yet get us confused and start attacking me telling me that I am
a cultist and try to indoctrinate people into my new age cult.
Because of this I have decided to learn as much as I can about
Waldorf education so I can address people's questions and concerns
adequately.
In addition, this year I had a young boy in my 2nd grade class who
was having trouble learning to read and write, and yet was so
artistic that I was often left breathless at his art work. I kept on
thinking to myself, "If only I could learn more about art techniques,
maybe I would be able to help him academically through art." and so
of course I came back to trying to learn about Waldorf techniques.
This time, since I am far from any Waldorf schools, I decided to use
the net. That is how I found you. As I read your stories I realized
that it wasn't me, or even Montessori, that had built the wall that I
so often saw while asking about Waldorf, but the questioning of their
methods in general. I guess I feel better, but I am still saddened.
I do see good in things that they do. I notice that this was
considered fluff in some people's posts, and I understand that, but I
think that some of the "fluff", combined in a different setting would
be quite beneficial to some children, don't you think? I do like the
idea of integrating beautiful drawings with math, science, language
and so on, as well as exposing the children to a more kinesthetic way
of learning the multiplication tables. I mean we all were looking for
a better way to education children, that is why we ended up looking
into Waldorf in the first place isn't it?
Anyhow, that is why I have joined your group. I hope you don't mind.
I want to learn. I also noticed that there are other people who are
interested in trying to create a better method of education for
children. I am VERY interested in corresponding with them.
Thank You and looking forward to reading your posts,
Lysa De Thomas
redwoodforest msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 00:31:49 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: how to deal with PLANS and Dan Dugan
I was amused to find my name mentioned on an Anthroposophical web
page. The Council of Anthroposophical Organizations has a front
organization:
http://www.spiritworking.org
If you browse to the press room and the "Media and Multicultural Project":
http://www.spiritworking.org/press/mmproject.html
There is a collection of Word files that download when you click on
them. The one titled "Media and Multicultural Relations Project"
begins:
)In response to your requests, the Spirit Working Media Office has
)worked with AWSNA to design a project to help Waldorf Schools assess
)and clarify their messages and practices and become more skilled at
)reaching out and responding to the public and the media. We offer 3
)types of support:
)
)I. Group Training Program - via conference call
)II. In-House Workshops - for your school or regional group of schools
)III. Individual Consultation
)
)This project can help you:
)* Feel prepared and more confident during media interviews.
)* Clarify your goals regarding cultural diversity.
)* Understand how media relations are connected to cultural diversity.
)* Create more clarity about roles within your organization.
)* Respond to critics.
)* Foster positive relationships with media contacts.
)* Increase enrollment and visibility within your community.
)* Affect broader cultural change regarding childhood and education.
In the Group Training Program, the problems are addressed:
)Session #4 Crisis Communication and Prevention
)Objectives
)* Learn how to respond to the hard questions: diversity, race,
)Waldorf culture, PLANS website/Dan Dugan, religion, science,
)academics, patriotism etc. (Sample language from AWSNA provided.)
)* Gain experience with techniques for crisis communications - being
)prepared, do's and don'ts in the moment.
)* Hear success stories. What's working for other schools? What
)doesn't work so well?
So here's where they learn how to deflect and dismiss the hard
questions. Best of luck, folks!
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 00:48:16 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: biodynamics in WWII
I recently saw the movie "Max," which is a fictional account (with
some basis in fact) of the young Hitler's relationship with a Jewish
art dealer--their common ground is having both been wounded in the
war. It takes place in 1918-1919, crucial years for both Hitler and
Anthroposophy. The Nazi party and the Waldorf school were both
founded in 1919.
In the film there's a passing reference to what I suspect is
biodynamic agriculture. In discussing what's to be served at a
reception, someone says, "oh, everything's bio now."
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1085
-- Topica Digest --
Re: New person
By dan dandugan.com
RE: how to deal with PLANS and Dan Dugan
By diana.winters verizon.net
on forgery
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: biodynamics in WWII
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: New person
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: New person
By spectmore yahoo.com
Re: New person
By Redwoodforest msn.com
[NNA-news] Rise in turnover for Weleda in Germany despite
difficult climate in
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 01:02:49 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: New person
)My name is Lysa. I am new to this group.
Welcome, Lysa!
)...One of my strongest memories was a sixth grader asking how a copy
)machine worked. As I started to explain about circuits and such her
)teacher came running across the classroom and pushed me out of the
)way. "You see," she said, "There are these little gnomes that live
)inside. It's all dark and cozy and so they are asleep, yet when you
)push the start button a light goes on and they wake up and quickly
)copy the paper."
Sixth graders! A good example of Waldorf's infantilizing.
)...this year I had a young boy in my 2nd grade class who was having
)trouble learning to read and write, and yet was so artistic that I
)was often left breathless at his art work. I kept on thinking to
)myself, "If only I could learn more about art techniques, maybe I
)would be able to help him academically through art." and so of
)course I came back to trying to learn about Waldorf techniques.
Unfortunately, the art in Waldorf is so tied up with Anthroposophical
principles that it's hardly art as most people use the word. They do,
in fact, consider a lot of the art they do to be "therapeutic," but
the therapy they mean is healing the damage of materialistic society,
that needs to be re-spiritualized. Unfortunately, their ideological
objectives have little to do with the kind of help that that boy
could use.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 16:04:05 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: how to deal with PLANS and Dan Dugan
I found this awhile ago Dan, and I thought I posted it here, maybe I
forgot. This is what I was talking about when I was saying they are
going to get more sophisticated about their PR, and this use of "front"
organizations is the wave of the future in anthro-land I'm sure.
Did you ever hear such bullshit? I love "understand how media relations
are connected to cultural diversity" - we don't have enough dark faces,
dark faces are what they want to see, think fast here . . .
I was amused to find my name mentioned on an Anthroposophical web
page. The Council of Anthroposophical Organizations has a front
organization:
http://www.spiritworking.org
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 03:49:54 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: on forgery
Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
)
) Percedol writes:
)
) )To begin from the title of the lecture Peter Steudenmeier proposes in
) )his article as:
) )"The Mission of Individual European National Souls in Relation to
) )Nordic-Germanic Mythology."
)
) That is exactly how the title of Steiner's Oslo lectures appears in Hans
)
) Mandl's book Vom Geist des Nordens. Mandl was an early anthroposophist,
) and
) his book was published in 1966, three decades before the definitive
) version
) of these lectures was published. At the time I wrote the first draft of
) my
) article, Mandl's book seemed a reliable source, although now that I have
)
) consulted the various published version of the lectures, I think that
) the
) word "European" most likely did not appear in the original title
P:
It does not appear!
that
) Steiner himself used in 1910, assuming he used any title at all in the
) actual spoken lectures.
)
) )To which lecture is he referring to, since there is no such lecture?
)
) All of the 1910 Oslo lectures have been published in authorized editions
) by
) anthroposophists themselves; I have three different versions of the
) book,
) and would be happy to mail photocopies of any of the lectures to anyone
) who
) requests it.
)
) )(And if there is this lecture he can post it here!)
)
) Sune Nordwall has already done that, though he has also altered the text
) in
) several places to make it sound less racist. You can find his version of
)
) lecture six ("The Five Root Races of Mankind"), for example, here:
)
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-6.htm
)
) I highly recommend this chapter, as well as the whole book, to anyone
) who
) would like an introduction to Steiner's racial doctrines.
P:
I have an Italian translation of that cycle. I don't see anything wrong
with the content of lecture six.
)
) )There is, instead a lecture series called:
) )"Die Mission einzelner Volksselen im zusammenhange mit der
) )germanisch-nordischen Mythologie" ["The mission of single folk souls in
) )relation to Nordic-Germanic mythology"], all held in Oslo from June 7 to
) )June 17, 1910.
)
) Percedol seems to be confused; the word "instead" makes no sense here,
) since
) this is the very same lecture series that my article refers to. As Dan
) pointed out, the official English translation of this book is The
) Mission of
) the Individual Folk Souls in Relation to Teutonic Mythology (published
) in
) 1970 by the Rudolf Steiner Press).
P:
It would be totally wrong if 'germanisch-nordischen' had ben translated
with 'teutonic'.
This is the same version that forms the
) basis of Sune's on-line version, minus Sune's alterations, of course.
)
) )Why is Peter writing of a tour in Norway, if it was actually a lecture
) )series held in Oslo?
)
) If you look very, very carefully at a map, Percedol, you will see that
) Oslo
) is in Norway. (By the way, I don't think that this is a mistake on
) either my
) part or on Mandl's part; it is not unusual, much less incorrect, to
) refer to
) a 'lecture tour' in which all the lectures take place in the same city.
) The
) last time I did a lecture tour of Maryland -- as the organizers of that
) tour
) referred to it -- all of my talks took place within the city of
) Baltimore.)
)
) As for the anthroposophist term "folk souls": in my opinion, this is a
) straightforward translation error. Steiner was hardly the first author
) to
) use the word "Volksseelen"; the term was common among German Idealist
) philosophers of the early 19th century, and English translators of
) Hegel,
) for example, have rendered this word as "national souls" for many years.
) The
) German "Volk" (which means nation or people) and the English "folk" are,
) in
) many contexts, false cognates.
P:
I would say it is 'People Souls', literally. But there is no 'European'
and, especially, no 'teutonic'. It's a big difference.
Steiner goes to considerable lengths, in this
) book and elsewhere, to clarify that he means that each specific people
) or
) nation has its own distinctive soul; the longstanding translation
) "national
) souls" conveys this meaning clearly, while the anthroposophist neologism
)
) "folk souls" obscures it.
)
) On the topic of "forgery" in general: I wholeheartedly agree with Dan
) that
) this particular ruse on the part of anthroposophists like Sune and
) Percedol
) is simply silly. Everyone who reads my article can read Steiner's
) lectures
) themselves and decide if I have misrepresented their content. As for the
)
) other ostensible errors in the opening paragraph of my article, the only
) one
) that is even potentially a genuine mistake is directly traceable to the
) anthroposophist Hans Mandl; if his version of the title is indeed
) inaccurate, the fault obviously lies with him, not with me.
One can check and compare at:
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/plans1.html
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/PS/Staudenmaier.htm
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/comments1.htm
)
) If list members would like to undertake a comparison of my article with
) the
) Steiner works that I cite, including the book on "folk souls", you can
) find
) the final version of the article as a pdf file at the openwaldorf site:
)
) http://www.openwaldorf.com/anthroposophyandecofascism.pdf
)
) This article also surveys the collaboration between the leadership of
) the
) biodynamic movement (along with many other anthroposophists) and the
) so-called 'green wing' of the Nazis. I encourage any and all
) anthroposophists posting under the moniker "Percedol" (or anybody else,
) for
) that matter) to state their views on this collaboration and its
) significance
) for anthroposophy's history.
P:
If there were individuals who were siding with the nazis and practiced
biodynamic methods, and or followed A. to me it does not mean anything.
Following A. does not automatically make that a good person to me. And
different people understand different things, some more some less, and
some misunderstand everything. So, what you say does not tell me
anything about A.
It tells me about people who can embrace any idea or theory, etc. and
mix it with other views.
Would you have expected that all Christians in history were good. Or do
you blame Christianity for those who were bad?
And if they were bad, were they really Christians?
Or is it enough to cultivate some land with biodynamic methods to
understand A.?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 03:52:19 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: biodynamics in WWII
Ylva Eliasson wrote:
)
) And i say it again, as an answer to Percedol:
)
) I have experienced their very special
) technic of arguing.
) They first of all try not to answer the question,
) next is to point out a very small thing to focus on to avoid what¥s the
) real point. Very often they accuse their criticis for persecution
)
) Ylva
P:
What is the real point?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 03:59:57 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: New person
Lysa De Thomas wrote:
)
) Hello,
) My name is Lysa.
)
)
)
) I left the position and was then assigned to a Montessori school where I
) was told that children didn't have to do anything unless they wanted to,
) and that every problem a child had was because of the teacher. When a 5
) grade boy urinated in the corner of the classroom I was told it was
) because he was "expressing" himself. I could not discipline him. When
) another went to the bathroom 15 times in a day, I was asked, "Why are
) you counting? Why do you care where he is ?"
)
) Needless to say I graduated from school frustrated with every system of
) education I had come in contact with.
)
) A few years later, fending off homelessness, I took a Montessori
) teaching position. Reluctantly I attended a course where I learned that
) so much of what I experienced in the Montessori school was a complete
) and utter misinterpretation of the Montessori Philosophy. I received my
) Montessori certification with delight and have been working for the past
) ten years to help build and train Montessori teachers that truly
) understand the method.
P:
Are you saying that the teachers you met in the first place did NOT
understand the Montessori method they were teaching?
If so, could you please expand a little on what was the actual attitude
of that method? It is not about letting children express themselves
freely?
Second:
Is it possible that Waldorf teachers did not understand Waldorf
education as well? So, in one case eventually you were able to get the
right thing, but not in the second.
I know some parents of Waldorf students and they are happy, also those
who do not follow A.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 05:16:17 +0000
From: (spectmore yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: New person
Can I say how much I gleefully enjoy seeing the monkier 'Percedol" with
the subjct line of 'New Person"?
Tee hee.
Which person now?
Percedol wrote:
)
) Lysa De Thomas wrote:
) )
) ) Hello,
)
) ) My name is Lysa.
) )
)
) )
) )
) ) I left the position and was then assigned to a Montessori school where I
) )
) ) was told that children didn't have to do anything unless they wanted to,
) )
) ) and that every problem a child had was because of the teacher. When a 5
) )
) ) grade boy urinated in the corner of the classroom I was told it was
) ) because he was "expressing" himself. I could not discipline him. When
) ) another went to the bathroom 15 times in a day, I was asked, "Why are
) ) you counting? Why do you care where he is ?"
) )
) ) Needless to say I graduated from school frustrated with every system of
) ) education I had come in contact with.
) )
) ) A few years later, fending off homelessness, I took a Montessori
) ) teaching position. Reluctantly I attended a course where I learned that
) )
) ) so much of what I experienced in the Montessori school was a complete
) ) and utter misinterpretation of the Montessori Philosophy. I received my
) )
) ) Montessori certification with delight and have been working for the past
) )
) ) ten years to help build and train Montessori teachers that truly
) ) understand the method.
)
) P:
) Are you saying that the teachers you met in the first place did NOT
) understand the Montessori method they were teaching?
) If so, could you please expand a little on what was the actual attitude
) of that method? It is not about letting children express themselves
) freely?
)
) Second:
) Is it possible that Waldorf teachers did not understand Waldorf
) education as well? So, in one case eventually you were able to get the
) right thing, but not in the second.
) I know some parents of Waldorf students and they are happy, also those
) who do not follow A.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 22:31:39 -0700
From: "Lysa De Thomas" (Redwoodforest msn.com)
Subject: Re: New person
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C345A0.B2B3AF30
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
P:
Are you saying that the teachers you met in the first place did NOT
understand the Montessori method they were teaching?
Absolutely! There are many "Montessori schools out there who do not
have one Montessori certified teacher in them. The program that I am
running at the moment had three teachers and a director all without
any training before I came.
If so, could you please expand a little on what was the actual attitude
of that method? It is not about letting children express themselves
freely?
Montessorians believe that children are naturally inquisitive and
that their job is to help children learn to learn. We see the child
as an individual even when teaching to a standard. (Very important in
the public sector at the moment.) For example I need to teach
children to read, but each child has their own learning style,
strengths and weaknesses, interests and so on. Therefore my classroom
is prepared for that. I have a full range of phonics and whole
language materials from pre- K level to junior high in my 6 to 9 year
old classroom. I have the same range of mathematics materials.
There are also many ways to teach a concept. (For example I have 10
different materials to teach a child to add.) My job is to set up
activities for each child so that they can learn from the material or
materials that will suit them the best. My job is also to monitor
each child closely so when they have mastered a concept they can
move along to the next "level" without being bored. Likewise
children who need extra time mastering a concept are not pushed on to
the next level simply because other children are ready, or the
textbook says it's time to move on. They are allowed time to work on
the concept that is troubling them for as long as they need to. Our
philosophy is "If you can't add single digit numbers together, how
are you going to be able to add double and triple digit numbers
together, especially when you need to regroup."( The teacher also
needs to be monitoring this, changing materials if needed, giving
extra one on one help when needed, and so on.)
Montessorians also don't teach in units, but in flowing and
integrating strands. To use Mathematics as an example, Math facts,
algorithms, geometry, graphing, fractions, algebra, to name a few are
taught independently of each other flowing forward and integrating
with the other topics when it can, yet never being a two week
vacation from each other. This works with all areas of academics:
science, history, social studies, language, mathematics, geography,...
The freedom that we Montessorians so cherish is that each child can
work at their optimal pace of acquisition, which is rarely linear.
Also in most classes, they have a choice as to when they do their
work (some classrooms and days it is due before lunch, at others it
can be at the end of the day or even the week.) Which materials they
use to complete their work is often their choice too. (Would you like
to use the strip board, bead stair, golden beads, snake game or one
of the 5 addition boards to do your addition today?) It also comes
from being able to use topics that interest them. 2nd grade
standards in California are knowing about the table of contents, the
index and the glossary . Instead of using a dry textbook with
questions at the end of the chapter, my students used books they
choose themselves. At first they answered my questions like, "If you
wanted to find the pages in your book on dinosaurs that mentions with
the t-rex Tyler, what would you use?" Later they do it themselves
while writing research projects that they choose themselves.
I guess that's enough for now.
Second:
Is it possible that Waldorf teachers did not understand Waldorf
education as well? So, in one case eventually you were able to get the
right thing, but not in the second.
I know some parents of Waldorf students and they are happy, also those
who do not follow A.
That's exactly what I was saying. I have experienced first hand how
a method can be butchered. I have always wondered if that was what
was happening at the Waldorf school where I student taught, yet I
have never been able to have a decent conversation with an
experienced Waldorf teacher. They always evade my questions. Also I
said I LIKED the art, and am always looking for new ways to teach
academics. From what I have heard, Waldorf has a great many
kinesthetic and artistic techniques for teaching academic subjects.
I would love to learn them.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 20:52:27 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: [NNA-news] Rise in turnover for Weleda in Germany despite
difficult climate in 2002
Copyright 2003 News Network Anthroposophy Limited. All rights reserved.
The following material may be republished without the prior consent
of News Network Anthroposophy. News Network Anthroposophy does,
however, require acknowledgement of the source and, if provided, the
author of the material.
+ + + + +
NNA-B U S I N E S S
Rise in turnover for Weleda in Germany despite difficult climate in 2002
By Christian von Arnim
Schwabisch Gmund, 2 July (NNA) - The difficult overall economic
climate in Germany has also affected the results of the producer of
anthroposophical medicines and natural cosmetics, Weleda AG, in
Schwabisch Gmund in Germany.
The 2002 pre-tax profits of the German subsidiary of the Swiss-based
Weleda Group lay two percentage points below the previous year at
just under 4.5m euros and thus below expectations. Results after tax
were 2.7m euros (2.8m euros in previous year).
Despite this decline in results, the company was able to increase
turnover by six percent from 83.4m euros to 88.7m euros. The body
care segment contributed six percent to the growth in turnover. The
company launched a new wild rose face care range and a new sandthorn
line and the sandthorn hand cream had been a great success, Weleda
said.
Exports to western and eastern Europe as well as to America had also
been satisfactory with growth of more than ten percent, the company
said.
Despite these positive developments, director Rudolf Frisch,
responsible for finances, controlling and production, commented:
"Turnover has not fulfilled our expectations." This was due to the
economic situation in Germany. The slow speed of social reform and
sluggish growth in the German economy were being watched with concern.
Considerable improvements had been achieved in the internal
organisation of the company, Weleda said. There had been significant
progress particularly in supply chain management, the
customer-oriented interaction between sales, production, purchasing
and logistics: "As a result of the new organisation, inventories have
been reduced by 33 percent within one year," Frisch said. This had
had a positive effect on costs, liquidity and degree of indebtedness.
Restrained growth anticipated for 2003
Weleda anticipates slow growth in the body care segment in 2003, too,
due to the lack of improvement in the overall economic situation.
With medicines, stagnation or slightly negative growth is expected,
caused by the effects of statutory regulations.
On 1 January 2003, a six percent price reduction was imposed by law
on the pharmaceutical industry, which would have a direct effect on
results. Weleda was thus expecting a lower result in comparison to
2002. In future, too, Weleda would have additional expenditures of
millions of euros for approval and registration of medicines.
International Weleda Group
The Weleda Group employed 1,264 staff last year. In 2002, the parent
company Weleda AG in Arlesheim, Switzerland, with its German
subsidiary in Schwabisch Gmund and 18 majority holdings worldwide
achieved an increase in consolidated world sales to 147.2m euros,
representing growth of 6.1 percent. The Group result after tax grew
by 20.9 percent to three million euros. Operating costs rose
significantly less at 3.2 percent than in the previous year (9.4
percent).
In the year just passed, Weleda France, too, was able to show record
domestic growth in turnover of 16 percent.
ENDS
+ + + + +
Item reference number: N030702-01EN
Date: 2 July 2003
More NNA reports at: http://www.nna-news.org/content/
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1086
-- Topica Digest --
Re: on forgery
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: New person
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: New person
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: New person
By Redwoodforest msn.com
Sorry for the brain glitch!
By Redwoodforest msn.com
Re: New person
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: New person
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: on forgery
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: on forgery
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: on forgery
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: New person
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: on forgery
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: New person
By Redwoodforest msn.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 08:04:51 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: on forgery
I wrote:
) ) At the time I wrote the first draft of
) ) my
) ) article, Mandl's book seemed a reliable source, although now that I have
) ) consulted the various published version of the lectures, I think that
) ) the
) ) word "European" most likely did not appear in the original title that )
)Steiner himself used in 1910, assuming he used any title at all in the )
)actual spoken lectures.
and Percedol replied:
)It does not appear!
I don't think you're paying attention here, Percedol. Unless you believe
that you were present at Steiner's Oslo lectures in June 1910, your claims
about which titles Steiner used at that time require some sort of
substantiation, such as a secondary source from a first-generation
anthroposophist, like Mandl. If all you're trying to say is that the word
'European' does not appear in the current published edition of those
lectures, then we have no disagreement. What does this have to do with
forgery, by the way?
)P:
)I have an Italian translation of that cycle. I don't see anything wrong
)with the content of lecture six.
No, of course you don't. You believe in Steiner's theory of "root races",
you agree with his description of "racial characteristics", you share his
views on "the proper distribution of the races", you promote his teachings
about "Race Spirits", and you embrace his ideas about "Aryans". The fact
that your perspective on such matters is widespread within the contemporary
anthroposophist movement is exactly what prompted me to write that article
in the first place.
For those who haven't yet had an opportunity to read lecture six (from which
all of the quoted terms in the preceding paragraph are taken), here is small
sample of the content that Percedol finds so appealing: Steiner writes here
that "racial continuity through the blood-stream was of particular
importance to the Semitic Hebrew people", and expounds on this theme as
follows:
"the Jahve forces from the Moon sphere meet and cooperate with the Mars
Spirits and thus a special kind of modification arises, namely, the Semitic
race. Here is the occult explanation for the origin of the Semites. The
Semitic people are an example of a modification of collective humanity.
Jahve or Jehovah shuts Himself off from the other Elohim and invests this
people with a special character by cooperating with the Mars Spirits, in
order to bring about a special modification of his people. You will now
understand the peculiar character of the Semitic people and its mission."
Many, many anthroposophists do not see anything wrong with these racial
doctrines.
) ) the official English translation of this book is The
) ) Mission of
) ) the Individual Folk Souls in Relation to Teutonic Mythology (published
) ) in
) ) 1970 by the Rudolf Steiner Press).
)
)P:
)It would be totally wrong if 'germanisch-nordischen' had ben translated
)with 'teutonic'.
I suggest you take up that matter with your fellow anthroposophists. The
translator was an anthroposophist, and the translation was fully authorized
by the executors of Steiner's literary estate.
)P:
)I would say it is 'People Souls', literally.
Yes, "people souls" is a literal translation of "Volksseelen", as I have
often noted before. If that phrase didn't sound stilted and clumsy in
English, it would be an acceptable rendering.
)But there is no 'European'
)and, especially, no 'teutonic'. It's a big difference.
I don't agree that this constitutes a big difference, but in any case you're
telling this to the wrong person. I didn't come up with either term;
anthroposophists did. Remind me again: what does this have to do with
forgery?
)P:
)If there were individuals who were siding with the nazis and practiced
)biodynamic methods, and or followed A.
That isn't an open question; there's no "if" involved here. And it wasn't
merely "individuals", it was the official and acknowledged leadership of the
biodynamic movement. Quite a few of the official and acknowledged leaders of
the anthroposophical movement as a whole also sided with the Nazis. But to
latter-day anthroposophists like Percedol, of course, this history of
collaboration "does not mean anything." I rest my case.
Peter Staudenmaier
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Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 14:34:09 +0000
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: New person
Lysa wrote: My job is also to monitor each child closely so when they have
mastered a concept they can move along to the next "level" without being
bored. Likewise children who need extra time mastering a concept are not
pushed on to the next level simply because other children are ready, or the
textbook says it's time to move on. They are allowed time to work on the
concept that is troubling them for as long as they need to. Our philosophy
is "If you can't add single digit numbers together, how are you going to be
able to add double and triple digit numbers together, especially when you
need to regroup."
Nicole: Welcome Lysa. I was a Waldorf subject teacher, class parent and
parent of 3 children in Waldorf and I think you may find Waldorf is not what
is appears to be in many ways. Waldorf, in my experience, takes exactly the
opposite approach to the one you describe above- a 'you are this age
therefore it is spiritually necessary for you to be doing this work'
approach, especially in math. I agree with you that children who can't add
single digit numbers together should master that before moving on (this is
the Kumon approach as well), but Waldorf would disagree. I have seen, in
more than one class, children who cannot add and do not know their
multiplication tables being asked to multiply 2 and 3 digit number together
(grade 4/5) or do multi-digit decimal division (grade 6). I have seen
essentially innumerate children graduate from the school, where there is
nothing systmatic about the way math is taught at all as far as I can see,
and proceed into high school where they are expected to solve systems of
simultaneous linear equations, factor binomial expressions or find the
volume of complex shapes. It is an almost impossible task. Children should
never be set up to fail in such a way.
On the other had, I have also seen children, my son included, who are bored
to tears with what is being taught in math and yet are not allowed to work
at their own level. Waldorf dislikes children who are prematurely 'too
awake' (ie capable of abstract, logical thought before the age of about 14)
and spends time and energy trying to stuff the genie back into the bottle.
Waldorf doesn't see young children as individuals to be encouraged in their
individuality, as Montessori obviously does, but as incompletely incarnated
components of a group rigidly defined by age. Waldorf is not about freedom -
quite the opposite in fact.
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Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 14:55:03 +0000
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: New person
Lysa wrote: I have experienced first hand how a method can be butchered. I
have always wondered if that was what was happening at the Waldorf school
where I student taught, yet I have never been able to have a decent
conversation with an experienced Waldorf teacher. They always evade my
questions. Also I said I LIKED the art, and am always looking for new ways
to teach academics. From what I have heard, Waldorf has a great many
kinesthetic and artistic techniques for teaching academic subjects. I would
love to learn them.
Nicole: Here's a link (I hope it comes up as a link anyway, if not you
could paste it into your browser) to a description of the experiences of Dr
David Mollet (a dedicated fan of Waldorf teaching methods who has spent his
career trying to disentangle them from anthroposophy). I think his
experiences with the Steinerites speak for themselves. He has designed his
own curricula, which might be of interest to you as another method which
might work for some children.
http://members.aol.com/WaldorfEdu/experiences.html
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Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 09:58:01 -0700
From: "Lysa De Thomas" (Redwoodforest msn.com)
Subject: Re: New person
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Hi Nicole,
Thank you for the link. Reading that post was an amazing experience
for me, in so many ways it mirrored my own experiences with
Montessori Education (I had to run off of a Caribbean island with a
fake passport after being fired from one school.)
I tried to look up the articles he wrote about, but the web pages
have expired. I am going to attempt to send him an e-mail at the
address that he gave, but do you know his name?
Thanks,
Lysa
PS
I'm so sorry that your child is bored in math. This happens so much.
Some children become trouble makers, others give up, a few others do
the work on their own. How old is he? There are some great programs
available if he is still school age.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 09:59:19 -0700
From: "Lysa De Thomas" (Redwoodforest msn.com)
Subject: Sorry for the brain glitch!
------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C34600.C3E53A70
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OK, stupid question, I reviewed your post and saw his name starting
me in the face. Sorry for the brain glitch!
----- Original Message -----
From: Nicole Foss
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 7:55 AM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: New person
Lysa wrote: I have experienced first hand how a method can be butchered. I
have always wondered if that was what was happening at the Waldorf school
where I student taught, yet I have never been able to have a decent
conversation with an experienced Waldorf teacher. They always evade my
questions. Also I said I LIKED the art, and am always looking for new ways
to teach academics. From what I have heard, Waldorf has a great many
kinesthetic and artistic techniques for teaching academic subjects. I would
love to learn them.
Nicole: Here's a link (I hope it comes up as a link anyway, if not you
could paste it into your browser) to a description of the experiences of Dr
David Mollet (a dedicated fan of Waldorf teaching methods who has spent his
career trying to disentangle them from anthroposophy). I think his
experiences with the Steinerites speak for themselves. He has designed his
own curricula, which might be of interest to you as another method which
might work for some children.
http://members.aol.com/WaldorfEdu/experiences.html
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
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==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 18:31:11 +0000
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: New person
Hi Lysa,
His name is Dr David Mollet. There's a bit of a discussion of his work at
OpenWaldorf.com in the forum (click on Forums in the top right hand corner)
entitled Waldorf Home-schoolers. There's a thread called David Mollet's
anthroposophy-free curricula. The link I sent you cames from someone who
posts at OpenWaldorf under the name Melange1 if memory serves. I'll ask at
OpenWaldorf if he/she knows any more information. It may also be possible to
find something relevant with a google search using his name. I tried to
email him myself once, but I think that email account may not be operational
any more.
OpenWaldorf is an interesting place to go for more Waldorf information as
well. There are many topics under discussion, both pro and con.
Nicole
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Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 23:16:27 +0000
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: New person
Hi Lysa,
I did a google search for David Mollet and came up with the following links
(with some duplication of content).
http://members.cox.net/waldorfedu/waldorfedu/
http://members.aol.com/WaldorfEdu/
http://members.cox.net/waldorfedu/waldorfedu/Pedagogy.html
Thanks for asking about my son by the way. He's 10 and has just left Waldorf
after 3 years for an academic private school where they've promoted him a
grade and will let him work at his own pace. He's been doing Kumon for 4
years, so he hasn't missed out on new math challenges (he's just started
algebra in Kumon level G). He'll be much happier next year, although he and
my daughters will have to get to grips with the concept of homework.
Nicole
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Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 16:47:32 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: on forgery
Percedol wrote:
) )But there is no 'European'
) )and, especially, no 'teutonic'. It's a big difference.
)
Peter S. replied:
I don't agree that this constitutes a big difference, but in any case
you're
) telling this to the wrong person. I didn't come up with either term;
) anthroposophists did. Remind me again: what does this have to do with
) forgery?
I am feeling confused about this "forgery" thread started by Percedol. I,
too, would appreciate an explanation as it seems a rather harsh analysis of
the document in question. I am following the thread with objective eyes and
I just do not see the need to use terms like "forgery."
If I were to make such a claim I would have plenty of evidence to back it
up. Please explain, Percedol.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:06:26 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: on forgery
walden wrote:
)
) Percedol wrote:
) ) )But there is no 'European'
) ) )and, especially, no 'teutonic'. It's a big difference.
) )
) Peter S. replied:
) I don't agree that this constitutes a big difference, but in any case
) you're
) ) telling this to the wrong person. I didn't come up with either term;
) ) anthroposophists did. Remind me again: what does this have to do with
) ) forgery?
)
) I am feeling confused about this "forgery" thread started by Percedol.
) I,
) too, would appreciate an explanation as it seems a rather harsh analysis
) of
) the document in question. I am following the thread with objective eyes
) and
) I just do not see the need to use terms like "forgery."
) If I were to make such a claim I would have plenty of evidence to back
) it
) up. Please explain, Percedol.
)
) -Walden
P:
Have you visited one of the three links I posted last time?
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/PS/Staudenmaier.html
This link saves the time of having to do all the work ex novo.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:22:35 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: on forgery
) )P:
) )I have an Italian translation of that cycle. I don't see anything wrong
) )with the content of lecture six.
)
) No, of course you don't. You believe in Steiner's theory of "root
) races",
) you agree with his description of "racial characteristics", you share
) his
) views on "the proper distribution of the races", you promote his
) teachings
) about "Race Spirits", and you embrace his ideas about "Aryans". The fact
)
) that your perspective on such matters is widespread within the
) contemporary
) anthroposophist movement is exactly what prompted me to write that
) article
) in the first place.
)
) For those who haven't yet had an opportunity to read lecture six (from
) which
) all of the quoted terms in the preceding paragraph are taken), here is
) small
) sample of the content that Percedol finds so appealing: Steiner writes
) here
) that "racial continuity through the blood-stream was of particular
) importance to the Semitic Hebrew people", and expounds on this theme as
) follows:
)
) "the Jahve forces from the Moon sphere meet and cooperate with the Mars
) Spirits and thus a special kind of modification arises, namely, the
) Semitic
) race. Here is the occult explanation for the origin of the Semites. The
) Semitic people are an example of a modification of collective humanity.
) Jahve or Jehovah shuts Himself off from the other Elohim and invests
) this
) people with a special character by cooperating with the Mars Spirits, in
)
) order to bring about a special modification of his people. You will now
) understand the peculiar character of the Semitic people and its
) mission."
)
) Many, many anthroposophists do not see anything wrong with these racial
) doctrines.
P:
because there is nothing wrong about it except for those who are so
intolerant towards the idea of mentioning anything containing the word
'race' that immediately turn it in their mind into the word 'racism'.
That's your problem, not mine!
It is interesting to note that today this tendency has gone so far that
scientists state that there are no races at all. Just by reading the
excerpt posted above it is clear that races would not originate from a
biological event, but rather as a spiritual influence.
Being racists is a different matter. I can see the differences but do
not discriminate. Each individual, being an I can relate to that same I
that is beyond race, people, nation, etc.
) )P:
) )If there were individuals who were siding with the nazis and practiced
) )biodynamic methods, and or followed A.
)
) That isn't an open question; there's no "if" involved here. And it
) wasn't
) merely "individuals", it was the official and acknowledged leadership of
) the
) biodynamic movement. Quite a few of the official and acknowledged
) leaders of
) the anthroposophical movement as a whole also sided with the Nazis. But
) to
) latter-day anthroposophists like Percedol, of course, this history of
) collaboration "does not mean anything." I rest my case.
P:
And the Vatican promoted the Inquisition, but that was not a Christian
thing!
A. and its founder have nothing to do with your allegations.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:28:43 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: New person
P:
Thank you for your answer. One more question:
What did you find about the alleged Montessori teaching of letting
children without discipline? It does not happen at all. How does it work
the relationship discipline/self-expression in the Montessori method?
) P:
) Are you saying that the teachers you met in the first place did NOT
) understand the Montessori method they were teaching?
) Absolutely! There are many "Montessori schools out there who do not have
) one Montessori certified teacher in them. The program that I am running
) at the moment had three teachers and a director all without any training
) before I came.
)
) If so, could you please expand a little on what was the actual attitude
)
) of that method? It is not about letting children express themselves
) freely?
) That's exactly what I was saying. I have experienced first hand how a
) method can be butchered. I have always wondered if that was what was
) happening at the Waldorf school where I student taught, yet I have never
) been able to have a decent conversation with an experienced Waldorf
) teacher. They always evade my questions. Also I said I LIKED the art,
) and am always looking for new ways to teach academics. From what I have
) heard, Waldorf has a great many kinesthetic and artistic techniques for
) teaching academic subjects. I would love to learn them.
P:
I would have to investigate more the W. method to express an opinion.
And then it may vary from school to school or in different countries or
even from teacher to teacher.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 01:20:38 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: on forgery
) P:
) Have you visited one of the three links I posted last time?
)
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/PS/Staudenmaier.html
)
) This link saves the time of having to do all the work ex novo.
Yes, thank-you. I have read the lengthy rebuttal some time ago. I thought,
however, that perhaps the reasons for the controversy might have more to do
with different interpretations than actual "forgery." I remember reading
Sune's site with great interest. I read it again tonight. A tremendous
amount of work and energy - and without the luxury of having English as a
mother tongue shows me the passion he feels toward this topic. Admirable -
but I still see no forgery though I must admit to some confusion while
trying to understand much of what Sune is trying to share. Perhaps I am not
overly perceptive. Why is Sune not on this list to discuss this matter?
That might help clear things up.
I wonder if you, Percedol, might be able to put in clear words - why you
believe "forgery" is the correct term? I am looking for clarity and do not
want to simply be perceived as being in one camp or the other.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 02:54:29 -0700
From: "Lysa De Thomas" (Redwoodforest msn.com)
Subject: Re: New person
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I don't quite understand your question. Are you saying, " How can
Montessorians give their children freedom of choice and have
discipline at the same time?
One of the biggest problems I feel with our society is the
misunderstanding of what freedom means in general. Freedom is not
license. With our freedoms comes responsibilities. I am free to
play music at my house, but if I play it so loud that it interferes
with my neighbor's freedom to have silence, I can be arrested for
disturbing the peace. I have the freedom to own a car, but that
doesn't mean I can drive on the grass in my local playground, go the
wrong way on a one way street, or run someone over, even if for some
crazy reason they are standing in the middle of the road.
The same goes for a Montessori classroom. In fact we believe that it
is our responsibility to prepare the child to grow up to become a
thoughtful, respectful, responsible citizen of the world. In a
Montessori classroom freedom does not mean a "free for all". In my
trainings I explain that it really should be called, "freedom within
boundaries". In my 6 to 9 year old classroom, children get a
workplan on Monday. It states that there are certain things that
need to be done every day. (a journal entry, a short math facts
worksheet...) importantthings that need to been done by the end of
the week (a fraction job, two geometry jobs, 2 word skyscrapers, 2
grammar skyscrapers,...) Other things that need to be completed by
the end of the week (a geography, botany, physical science, biology,
history... job) and then they are free to do any work that they
choose. This work can be either on the shelves, in their mind, or the
finished workplan cabinet (which is full of educational games and
activities) Children must have at least 1 job completed by recess, 3
before lunch. Friday afternoon is always a fun activity, but only for
those who have finished their workplan. There are no exceptions
except 1) If you are absent I don't expect work for the days you were
gone, 2) If we have outside activities, guest speakers, whole class
activities, assemblies,... I do not expect work for those times, and
3) If you are involved in a large project and are really working
(usually research project or they get on a roll and just want to, oh,
say do 25 graph pictures in 4 quadrants) I will accept that, for a
while. Never for ever. You still have to learn the other things
whether you want to or not. (I still have to pay my taxes whether I
want to or not,.) Now remember, all workplans are adjusted to the
child so there is nothing too overwhelming that they can't get the
work done if they try. (If they are having problems I reevaluate the
expectations and determine if the work is too hard for them, if they
are having trouble focusing, or if they are just fooling around and I
make the appropriate adjustments.)
Their freedom comes into play, like I said in my last post, by
choosing the time they do the work and the materials (manipulatives)
they choose to do the work with. There are still expectations, and
there are definitely rules. A child is not free to misuse a material,
to bother their peers, damage the classroom, or to choose to do
nothing. To do so would be interfering with the freedom of others.
Something we teach our children from day one; respect.
One might ask, "If I am so strongly grounded in Montessori
Philosophy, why am I so interested in Waldorf techniques. The reason
is simple. I want to learn new ways to introduce topics or to foster
the study of them. Montessori materials are beautiful and very
graphic and sensorial in their explanation of concepts, but what we
are missing is the art and more kinesthetic activities. For example:
We read and compare myths in second and third grade. I have the
manipulatives to help a child make a Venn diagram comparing and
contrasting myths. I have other materials to help them understand
the geography and culture of the places where they are from, and I
have tools to help them write comparative essays on the different
myths (all second and third grade California standards, so please
don't get on my case about how Montessorians push children too fast.
Take that up with the California Board of Regents. Public Waldorf
schools would have to adhere to the same standards.) But aside from
handing them crayons and paper and telling them to draw a scene or
giving them cardboard, tissue paper and so on and having them make
dioramas from the myth, I have no way of integrating art into the
standard. Also, since I personally do not have a lot of artistic
techniques, and they are not taught to us at our Montessori
trainings, I would not know how to teach them different ways of
drawing/painting. (I do know that Waldorf teaches children to draw
from the inside out, as opposed to the outline in, but I don't know
how to do it myself.) These are all things I would LOVE to learn. ( I
did get my hands on some bees wax. I gave it to a group of students
once before I read a myth to them and they LOVED holding and
squeezing it while I read. Afterwards I told them that they could
make a character from the story out of the wax. Some did, but some
said, "I don't know how." I did my best to show them some ideas, but
since I really didn't have the skill, I didn't do it justice. It was
times like that that I wished I knew more about the Waldorf techniques.
----- Original Message -----
From: Percedol
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 10:28 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: RE: New person
P:
Thank you for your answer. One more question:
What did you find about the alleged Montessori teaching of letting
children without discipline? It does not happen at all. How does it work
the relationship discipline/self-expression in the Montessori method?
) P:
) Are you saying that the teachers you met in the first place did NOT
) understand the Montessori method they were teaching?
) Absolutely! There are many "Montessori schools out there who do not have
) one Montessori certified teacher in them. The program that I am running
) at the moment had three teachers and a director all without any training
) before I came.
)
) If so, could you please expand a little on what was the actual attitude
)
) of that method? It is not about letting children express themselves
) freely?
) That's exactly what I was saying. I have experienced first hand how a
) method can be butchered. I have always wondered if that was what was
) happening at the Waldorf school where I student taught, yet I have never
) been able to have a decent conversation with an experienced Waldorf
) teacher. They always evade my questions. Also I said I LIKED the art,
) and am always looking for new ways to teach academics. From what I have
) heard, Waldorf has a great many kinesthetic and artistic techniques for
) teaching academic subjects. I would love to learn them.
P:
I would have to investigate more the W. method to express an opinion.
And then it may vary from school to school or in different countries or
even from teacher to teacher.
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1087
-- Topica Digest --
Re: New person
By dan dandugan.com
Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
By dan dandugan.com
Re: New person
By Redwoodforest msn.com
RE: New person
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
By Percedol netscape.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:51:18 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: New person
Lysa De Thomas, you wrote:
)We read and compare myths in second and third grade. I have the
)manipulatives to help a child make a Venn diagram comparing and
)contrasting myths. I have other materials to help them understand
)the geography and culture of the places where they are from, and I
)have tools to help them write comparative essays on the different
)myths (all second and third grade California standards, so please
)don't get on my case about how Montessorians push children too fast.
)Take that up with the California Board of Regents. Public Waldorf
)schools would have to adhere to the same standards.)
Actually, California charter schools aren't required to meet
standards. The only feedback is the annual standardized tests. In the
past the public Waldorfs have gotten around that with parental
exemptions for the weaker students, but because of the abuse those
rules have been tightened up recently.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:21:47 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
Walden wrote,
)I am feeling confused about this "forgery" thread started by Percedol. I,
)too, would appreciate an explanation as it seems a rather harsh analysis of
)the document in question. I am following the thread with objective eyes and
)I just do not see the need to use terms like "forgery." If I were to
)make such a claim I would have plenty of evidence to back it
)up. Please explain, Percedol.
And Percedol replied,
)Have you visited one of the three links I posted last time?
)
)http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/PS/Staudenmaier.html
)
)This link saves the time of having to do all the work ex novo.
Not so fast, Percedol. -You- used the word "forgery" to describe
Staudenmaier's work, and now -you- must either justify your statement
or withdraw it with an apology. It is not sufficient to refer to
Sune's web site as an explanation of your position. I suggest you
apologize, since neither you nor Sune have presented evidence of
forgery.
-Dan Dugan
Moderator
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:07:18 -0700
From: "Lysa De Thomas" (Redwoodforest msn.com)
Subject: Re: New person
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C3471E.DD3058B0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Interesting. In my district we have one charter school and three
special programs (GATE, Special Day Class, and Montessori) Being in
one of these programs just means not having to use the textbooks or
other district mandated materials and testing (they are REALLY into
benchmark testing at the moment. Evil, pure evil) But we are mandated
to teach to the standards even the Special Day Classes.
That's one of the problems with standardize testing - the games that
are played with it. For a long time we used the SAT - 9 which was
normed in Iowa. 5% of the population were second language learners,
were classified as "learning diabled" and were exempted. In my
school 85% of the population are second language learners. Of course
we weren't allowed to only test 15% of our students, so we have to
test them all, even the ones who arrive the day before from Mexico
and have never been in a school in their lives. (We had two this
year) Is it any wonder why our scores don't compare?
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Dugan
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 2:30 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: New person
Lysa De Thomas, you wrote:
)We read and compare myths in second and third grade. I have the
)manipulatives to help a child make a Venn diagram comparing and
)contrasting myths. I have other materials to help them understand
)the geography and culture of the places where they are from, and I
)have tools to help them write comparative essays on the different
)myths (all second and third grade California standards, so please
)don't get on my case about how Montessorians push children too fast.
)Take that up with the California Board of Regents. Public Waldorf
)schools would have to adhere to the same standards.)
Actually, California charter schools aren't required to meet
standards. The only feedback is the annual standardized tests. In the
past the public Waldorfs have gotten around that with parental
exemptions for the weaker students, but because of the abuse those
rules have been tightened up recently.
-Dan Dugan
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 04:31:19 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: New person
Lysa De Thomas wrote:
) I don't quite understand your question. Are you saying, " How can
) Montessorians give their children freedom of choice and have discipline
) at the same time?
It was times like that that I wished I knew more about the Waldorf
techniques.
P:
You have answered to my question, thank you!
My suggestion about your longing to learn these techniques:
I suspect that if you side with the w-critics you might not get support
from those who could teach you what you are looking for.
When you can, go to an A. branch in California, talk to them and ask if
there are classes where you can learn that. Explain your reasons and
intentions. There may be books, too. Show your enthusiasm and maybe go
there several times, so that they may start to know you better.
Don't give up at the first attempt.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 05:03:20 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
P:
I guess that the basis for your warning is based solely on the idea that
I am simply giving a link to a web site without knowing wnything of the
subject.
Instead, i have P.S. article and the lecture series here with me.
Peter's article begins with :
"In June 1910 RS, the founder of A., began a speaking tour of Norway
with a lecture to a large and attentive audience in Oslo.
[As we now know the tour included only Oslo]
The lecture was titled "The mission of Individual European National
Souls in relation to Nordic-Germanic Mythology".
[That is the incorrect title of the series, not of a lecture - there is
no 'European' ]
In the Oslo lecture and throughout his Norwegian tour Steiner presented
his theory of 'national souls'.
[Here P. insists on this alleged Norwegian tour and his mentioning Oslo
suggests that it was held in different cities]
Steiner explained componentes of the 'germanic-nordic sub-race', the
world's most advanced ethnic group, which was in turn the vanguard of
the five historical root races'.
[There is no mention in the series of a 'germanic-nordic-sub-race',
neither it is mentioned that it constitutes the most advanced ethnic
group and it does not mention 'root-races'. This is completely made up]
This superior fifth root race, Steiner told his Oslo audience, was
naturally the 'Aryan race'.
[There is no mention of a' superior' fifth root race and when mentioning
the word 'aryan peoples' in lecture six, Steiner refers to 'anterior
Asia and europe, to the peoples called caucasians'. He says that these
peoples are determined through senses.
There is no speaking of an 'Aryan race'. ]
Later in his article -and this is unrelated to the series above
mentioned - P. writes that 'Steiner was unwilling toaccept a
brown-skinned Hindu lad as the next 'spitual master'.
[There is no reference to such a statement referring to the skin color
of Jiddu Krishnamurti from RS. There were totally different reasons,
i.e. that S. could not accept that The Christ Being could reincarnate at
all a second time. It was not because of a racist prejudice. That
statement in Peter's article is totally false.]
Dan Dugan wrote:
)
) Walden wrote,
)
) )I am feeling confused about this "forgery" thread started by Percedol.
) )I,
) )too, would appreciate an explanation as it seems a rather harsh analysis
) )of
) )the document in question. I am following the thread with objective eyes
) )and
) )I just do not see the need to use terms like "forgery." If I were to
) )make such a claim I would have plenty of evidence to back it
) )up. Please explain, Percedol.
)
) And Percedol replied,
)
) )Have you visited one of the three links I posted last time?
) )
) )http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/PS/Staudenmaier.html
) )
) )This link saves the time of having to do all the work ex novo.
)
) Not so fast, Percedol. -You- used the word "forgery" to describe
) Staudenmaier's work, and now -you- must either justify your statement
) or withdraw it with an apology. It is not sufficient to refer to
) Sune's web site as an explanation of your position. I suggest you
) apologize, since neither you nor Sune have presented evidence of
) forgery.
)
) -Dan Dugan
) Moderator
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1088
-- Topica Digest --
Percedol on racism
By pstaud hotmail.com
facts and forgeries
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: Percedol on racism
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: Percedol on racism
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: facts and forgeries
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:33:07 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Percedol on racism
Regarding Steiner's racial doctrines, Percedol writes:
)because there is nothing wrong about it except for those who are so
)intolerant towards the idea of mentioning anything containing the word
)'race' that immediately turn it in their mind into the word 'racism'.
)That's your problem, not mine!
It would indeed be a problem if I, or anybody else, believed that the mere
mention of the word "race" was racist. But nobody believes that, least of
all me. I use the word "race" constantly. Every day, thousands of people use
the word in non-racist ways. Steiner's book on 'national souls' isn't racist
because it includes the word "race"; it is racist because it assigns
specific cultural, moral, intellectual and physical characteristics to
specific racial groups, and ranks these "racial characters" in hierarchical
order. There is no such thing as a higher or a lower race, a more advanced
or less advanced race; to believe that such categories exist and are
meaningful is the very essence of racism.
)It is interesting to note that today this tendency has gone so far that
)scientists state that there are no races at all.
That is not what "scientists state". What they generally state is that
racial categories are social constructs that do not align with biological
traits in any consistent or systematic way. In other words, "races" exist
because people sort one another into racial types, but these types have no
reliable biological basis.
)Just by reading the
)excerpt posted above it is clear that races would not originate from a
)biological event, but rather as a spiritual influence.
You need to read the passage again, along with the rest of the book. Steiner
says the opposite of what you just said, in extremely explicit terms.
According to Steiner, "racial character" is both a biological and a
spiritual phenomenon; that is precisely why his racial doctrines play such a
central role in anthroposophy's overall cosmology. Here is another passage
from the same book for Percedol to ponder:
"It is possible therefore that a man is not only dependent on the locality
of his birth, but that the characteristics thus acquired may also be
inherited by his descendants. Thus racial homogeneity is reflected not only
in the influence of the habitat, but also in the racial inheritance. This
explains why racial characteristics can be inherited and why, as we shall
learn from Spiritual Science, it was only in the past that racial
characteristics were determined by the locality where man was born. In the
latter part of the Lemurian epoch and in the early Atlantean epoch, for
example, man was directly dependent upon his physical environment. In later
times race was no longer associated with locality, but was bound up with
heredity. In race therefore we see something that was originally associated
with a particular geographical region, was later passed on via inheritance,
but became increasingly independent of a
particular locality." (Steiner, The Mission of the Individual Folk Souls,
p. 73)
)Being racists is a different matter. I can see the differences but do
)not discriminate.
"Being racist" means, among other things, imputing moral and intellectual
differences to racial groups, and attributing spiritual significance to
these supposed differences, as Steiner did throughout his racial writings.
)Each individual, being an I can relate to that same I
)that is beyond race, people, nation, etc.
That has nothing to do with racism. Racists are not somehow incapable of
relating to other people as individuals. In any case, anthroposophy says
very clearly that the level of development of each individual's "I" is
directly dependent on that individual's race and ethnicity. This belief is
racist.
)And the Vatican promoted the Inquisition, but that was not a Christian
)thing!
Perhaps you think the Inquisition was perpetrated by Muslims, or maybe
Buddhists? Christians who refuse to acknowledge the past institutional
crimes of their predecessors are in denial of their own history. Same goes
for anthroposophists.
)A. and its founder have nothing to do with your allegations.
I made no "allegations" about the role of the biodynamic movement during
World War II; everything I wrote is historical fact, entirely substantiated
by copious documentary evidence. Those facts do not concern Rudolf Steiner
directly, as he died fourteen years before the war began, but they certainly
do have quite a bit to do with anthroposophy as it really existed at the
time. Instead of facing this history squarely, far too many anthroposophists
today prefer to keep their heads firmly planted in the sand.
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 20:39:58 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: facts and forgeries
Percedol's latest post is such a delightfully revealing mixture of petty
complaints and factual errors that I hardly know where to begin. Maybe it
makes sense to start with an explanation of the term "forgery". A forgery,
Percedol, is a faked document that is presented as authentic. To commit
forgery, you need to either fraudulently alter an existing document, or
create a new one and try to pass it off as genuine. The falsified document
itself must be produced and displayed in order for the forgery to succeed. I
obviously haven't done anything remotely similar; the first printed version
of Steiner's lectures on 'national souls' appeared decades before I was
born, and the authorized translation that you and I have been discussing was
published before I learned how to read or write. The notion that I have
forged these lectures is therefore laughable. Your real objection, as Walden
and Dan have both pointed out, is that you think I have misinterpreted and
misrepresented the content of these lectures. Your musings on the topic
would make considerably more sense if you could try to keep those very
different charges straight. But let's set that aside for the moment and take
a look at your newest claims.
)Instead, i have P.S. article and the lecture series here with me.
What you have is the first draft of my article, and an Italian translation
of the one of the edited versions of the transcript of Steiner's 1910
lectures. You do not have the final draft of my article, and you do not have
any reference to or account of the spoken lectures themselves. I have
directed your attention to both of those things, and you have completely
ignored them. How come?
)Peter's article begins with :
)"In June 1910 RS, the founder of A., began a speaking tour of Norway
)with a lecture to a large and attentive audience in Oslo.
)[As we now know the tour included only Oslo]
That is a petty complaint, but just for fun, let's pretend it is a real
criticism. If you are genuinely confused by the formulation I used, I
recommend you simply reverse the two geographical terms: Steiner began a
speaking tour of Oslo with a lecture in Norway. Assuming you have an atlas
at hand, you will then quickly realize that there is nothing inaccurate
about my opening sentence. If you think otherwise, I would like to see the
map you're relying on.
)The lecture was titled "The mission of Individual European National
)Souls in relation to Nordic-Germanic Mythology".
)[That is the incorrect title of the series, not of a lecture - there is
)no 'European' ]
It is certainly possible that this title is incorrect, but you can't
possibly know one way or the other, since you weren't present at the
lecture, you have no audio recording or original transcript of it, and you
have so far refused to consult any sources that could confirm or dispute the
title as given. Try to remember that the original spoken lectures and the
later published versions of them are two distinct things; since the body of
the text itself was changed for publication, it would hardly be surprising
if the title had been changed as well. But let's stipulate that the
"correct" title does not include the word "European"; if that is true, then
the mistake lies with your fellow anthroposophist Hans Mandl. Perhaps you
think he was engaged in forgery as well?
)In the Oslo lecture and throughout his Norwegian tour Steiner presented
)his theory of 'national souls'.
)[Here P. insists on this alleged Norwegian tour and his mentioning Oslo
)suggests that it was held in different cities]
Yes, that sentence could indeed be read to mean that his other Norwegian
lectures were held in cities other than Oslo, which is why I changed the
sentence in the final draft of the article (it now reads simply "In the Oslo
lectures Steiner presented...").
)[There is no mention in the series of a 'germanic-nordic-sub-race',
)neither it is mentioned that it constitutes the most advanced ethnic
)group and it does not mention 'root-races'. This is completely made up]
Since it is at least hypothetically possible that the Italian translation
does not use the term "root-races", I am going to give you the benefit of
the doubt here, rather than conclude that you are either lying or dyslexic
(or perhaps merely committing forgery?). Both the German and the English
editions of the book most certainly do "mention 'root-races'"; indeed the
chapter we've been discussing carries the title "The Five Root-Races of
Mankind". This term is not just "mentioned", it is one of the central
concepts of the whole book. In the official German edition, the chapter
title reads "Die Funf Hauptrassen der Menschheit". The term "Hauptrassen"
could also be translated as "main races", just as "Menschheit" could be
translated as "humankind", but the anthroposophist translator chose to use
the more familiar "root-races". This is not, I hasten to add, a translation
error; Steiner himself used the terms "Hauptrasse" and "Wurzelrasse"
interchangeably to denote the theosophical category of "root-races". But
let's assume, for argument's sake, that you were unaware of all of these
facts. The question still remains: what is the point of wildly overblown
claims like "this is completely made up"? Why not simply say that you
disagree with my reading of the lectures?
)[There is no mention of a' superior' fifth root race and when mentioning
)the word 'aryan peoples' in lecture six, Steiner refers to 'anterior
)Asia and europe, to the peoples called caucasians'. He says that these
)peoples are determined through senses.
)There is no speaking of an 'Aryan race'. ]
In the authorized English edition, the phrase in question is simply "the
Aryans". The passage Percedol quoted reads in full:
"Now the Jupiter forces work indirectly through the sense-impressions and
from there radiate to those parts of the central nervous system which are
situated in the brain and spinal cord. Here is the seat of those forces
which determine the particular racial character of those races belonging to
the Jupiter humanity. This applies more or less to the Aryans, to the
peoples of Asia Minor and Europe whom we regard as members of the Caucasian
race." (p. 106)
That Steiner continued to refer to the "Aryans" as a racial group in 1910,
when that whole notion had been thoroughly discredited, was not only
nonsensical, but inescapably racist, especially in a Theosophical context.
But Steiner doesn't simply say that the Aryans are determined through the
senses, he says that they are the only truly adult race, quite distinct from
the infantile Africans, the childlike Asians, and the senile American
Indians; and he further associates the Aryans with Jupiter, the paramount
figure in the divine pantheon, as well as with the brain, widely considered
the highest organ, while associating the remaining racial groups with less
lofty deities and organs.
Here is a typical passage from chapter four ("The Evolution of Races and
Civilizations"):
"The black or Negro race is substantially determined by these childhood
characteristics. If we now cross over to Asia, we find a point or centre
where the formative forces of the Earth impress permanently on man the
particular characteristics of later youth or adolescence and determine his
racial character. Such races are the yellow and brown races of our time. If
we continue northward and then turn in a westernly direction towards Europe,
a third point or centre is reached which permanently impresses upon man the
characteristics of his adult life." (p. 75)
And then there's the classic passage on genocide as karmic necessity:
"The forces which determine manís racial character follow this cosmic
pattern. The American Indians died out, not because of European
persecutions, but because they were destined to succumb to those forces
which hastened their extinction." (p. 76)
Percedol finds "nothing wrong", in his own words, with these teachings. I
have nothing to add to his own stated conclusion.
)Later in his article -and this is unrelated to the series above
)mentioned - P. writes that 'Steiner was unwilling toaccept a
)brown-skinned Hindu lad as the next 'spitual master'.
)[There is no reference to such a statement referring to the skin color
)of Jiddu Krishnamurti from RS.
Indeed. Had there been one, I would have quoted it. My description was based
not on Steiner's public statements about Krishnamurti (which were relatively
reserved, in contrast to his contemporaneous statements about the leadership
of the Theosophical Society), but on his other statements about the racial
status of Asians, the future direction of racial evolution, the spiritual
significance of skin color, the obsolete and inferior character of Eastern
spiritual traditions, and so forth.
)There were totally different reasons,
)i.e. that S. could not accept that The Christ Being could reincarnate at
)all a second time. It was not because of a racist prejudice.
Those two things are not at all incompatible. Steiner did not simply declare
that no living person could be the reincarnation of Christ, he pointedly
ridiculed the notion that this "Hindu lad" (that is Steiner's own term, not
mine) could embody the Christ. The poor kid wasn't even a Christian, and
thus falied Steiner's chief test of adequacy for cosmic leadership. At the
same time, Steiner encouraged his closer circle of followers to think of
him, Steiner, as the new appearance of Christ, according to reliable reports
from these followers and their associates. Other anthroposophists had no
trouble grasping his point at the time; as one of them wrote, Steiner's
disciples believed that "since we are the most advanced race, we have the
most advanced religion." That is why it was such an affront to the
anthroposophist mindset when the rest of the Theosophical movement cast its
lot with Krishnamurti, who was neither racially nor religiously suited to
the role, in their eyes.
)That statement in Peter's article is totally false.]
No, it is an entirely plausible interpretation of the available data, though
it may well turn out to be inaccurate, partial, or beside the point. History
is like that. I would like to point out that you have so far failed to
provide any substantial evidence at all for your preferred interpretations
of Steiner's actions and writings, Percedol, while simultaneously insisting
that my proposed readings are intentionally deceptive. I recommend that you
re-acquaint yourself with the facts at issue here and reconsider your
opinion.
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 05:18:34 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Percedol on racism
Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
) It would indeed be a problem if I, or anybody else, believed that the
) mere
) mention of the word "race" was racist. But nobody believes that, least
) of
) all me. I use the word "race" constantly. Every day, thousands of people
) use
) the word in non-racist ways. Steiner's book on 'national souls' isn't
) racist
) because it includes the word "race"; it is racist because it assigns
) specific cultural, moral, intellectual and physical characteristics to
) specific racial groups, and ranks these "racial characters" in
) hierarchical
) order. There is no such thing as a higher or a lower race, a more
) advanced
) or less advanced race; to believe that such categories exist and are
) meaningful is the very essence of racism.
P:
In that cycles there is a description of the origin and some
characteristics of the different races. A bad intentioned person might
use that knowledge to make discriminations, but in that case he or she
has not understood the spiritual science and the way to use that
knoweldge.
)
) )It is interesting to note that today this tendency has gone so far that
) )scientists state that there are no races at all.
)
) That is not what "scientists state". What they generally state is that
) racial categories are social constructs that do not align with
) biological
) traits in any consistent or systematic way. In other words, "races"
) exist
) because people sort one another into racial types, but these types have
) no
) reliable biological basis.
)
) )Just by reading the
) )excerpt posted above it is clear that races would not originate from a
) )biological event, but rather as a spiritual influence.
)
) You need to read the passage again, along with the rest of the book.
) Steiner
) says the opposite of what you just said, in extremely explicit terms.
) According to Steiner, "racial character" is both a biological and a
) spiritual phenomenon; that is precisely why his racial doctrines play
) such a
) central role in anthroposophy's overall cosmology. Here is another
) passage
) from the same book for Percedol to ponder:
)
) "It is possible therefore that a man is not only dependent on the
) locality
) of his birth, but that the characteristics thus acquired may also be
) inherited by his descendants. Thus racial homogeneity is reflected not
) only
) in the influence of the habitat, but also in the racial inheritance.
) This
) explains why racial characteristics can be inherited and why, as we
) shall
) learn from Spiritual Science, it was only in the past that racial
) characteristics were determined by the locality where man was born. In
) the
) latter part of the Lemurian epoch and in the early Atlantean epoch, for
) example, man was directly dependent upon his physical environment. In
) later
) times race was no longer associated with locality, but was bound up with
)
) heredity. In race therefore we see something that was originally
) associated
) with a particular geographical region, was later passed on via
) inheritance,
) but became increasingly independent of a
) particular locality." (Steiner, The Mission of the Individual Folk
) Souls,
) p. 73)
P:
No, I wrote that what the lecture says is that races would originate
from a spiritual influence [the irregular spirits of the form].
Therefore, there is a spiritual cause. We live in a world of effects ,
here there are no causes [just to paraphrase Meyrink].
)
) )Being racists is a different matter. I can see the differences but do
) )not discriminate.
)
) "Being racist" means, among other things, imputing moral and
) intellectual
) differences to racial groups, and attributing spiritual significance to
) these supposed differences, as Steiner did throughout his racial
) writings.
P:
Everything is at a different level: for example I am not equal to a
Buddha. I would not be surprised that there are not two people at the
same level. Some are more advanced than others.
The more advanced have to help the others to progress.
)
) )Each individual, being an I can relate to that same I
) )that is beyond race, people, nation, etc.
)
) That has nothing to do with racism. Racists are not somehow incapable of
)
) relating to other people as individuals. In any case, anthroposophy says
)
) very clearly that the level of development of each individual's "I" is
) directly dependent on that individual's race and ethnicity. This belief
) is
) racist.
P:
I understand that the use of the word "I" may be misleading. I am using
the word I to mean the 'Atman' [also 'higher I'] of each individual, not
our contingent 'ego'. Each person, being an individual no matter from
which ethnicity, race, people, etc. can experience that, the I, and
therefore be at a level that is beyond race, people, nation, etc.
)
) )And the Vatican promoted the Inquisition, but that was not a Christian
) )thing!
)
) Perhaps you think the Inquisition was perpetrated by Muslims, or maybe
) Buddhists? Christians who refuse to acknowledge the past institutional
) crimes of their predecessors are in denial of their own history. Same
) goes
) for anthroposophists.
P:
I mean that these people might have been baptized, and therefore
formally christians, but what they did was not a Christian thing, they
were not Christians in this sense. The same is valid for
Anthroposophists.
)
) )A. and its founder have nothing to do with your allegations.
)
) I made no "allegations" about the role of the biodynamic movement during
)
) World War II; everything I wrote is historical fact, entirely
) substantiated
) by copious documentary evidence. Those facts do not concern Rudolf
) Steiner
) directly, as he died fourteen years before the war began, but they
) certainly
) do have quite a bit to do with anthroposophy as it really existed at the
)
) time.
P:
You can say that it had a bit to do with the Society or some of his
members, but not with Anthroposophy. It would be a mistake to identify
'per se' the AS with A. after the death of RS.
The Vatican that ordered the Inquisition did not act under the Spirit of
Christianity, quite the opposite.
Instead of facing this history squarely, far too many anthroposophists
) today prefer to keep their heads firmly planted in the sand.
P:
I don't see anything wrong with the principles and teachings of
Anthroposophy.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 00:10:08 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Percedol on racism
Peter S. wrote:
Steiner's book on 'national souls' isn't
) racist
) because it includes the word "race"; it is racist because it assigns
) specific cultural, moral, intellectual and physical characteristics to
) specific racial groups, and ranks these "racial characters" in
) hierarchical
) order. There is no such thing as a higher or a lower race, a more
) advanced
) or less advanced race; to believe that such categories exist and are
) meaningful is the very essence of racism.
) P replied:
) In that cycles there is a description of the origin and some
) characteristics of the different races. A bad intentioned person might
) use that knowledge to make discriminations, but in that case he or she
) has not understood the spiritual science and the way to use that
) knoweldge.
Walden: P, would you disagree with anthroposophist, Downer, when he states
(in a *resource* book for Waldorf teachers):
"The Aryan type works through the European race in general although he may
incarnate within another race as a sacrificial gesture to assist in the
destiny of that race. This can happen to assist the individualizing of
personalities in that race so that their unique qualities are freed to
contribute towards mankind's future. The immediate cultural task lies with
the Aryan."
(p. 189 Downer, Graham. "The South African Paleolithic Age." Invisible
Africa: A search for the Grail in Africa--Selected Essays. Kenilworth,
Republic of South Africa: Novalis Press, 1987)
Walden: I hope you might help me with another nagging question I have had
about reincarnation and nations/communities/races:
"It is indeed very uncommon--note that I am saying uncommon, though it does
not always have to be so--that a soul belongs to the same community on earth
through a number of consecutive incarnations. Souls pass from one earthly
community to another...we have one example of souls actually assuming the
same nationality a number of times. That is the case with the people of
Central Europe. These Central European peoples include many souls that are
incarnated among them today and have also been incarnated in the Germanic
tribes in the past. This is a fact we are able to trace."
Steiner, "The Destinies of Individuals and of Nations." (1914-15) Trans.
Anna R. Meuss. New York: Anthroposophic Press 1987
Do you know how Steiner and anthroposophists are able to trace this "fact?"
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 00:41:42 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: facts and forgeries
(Snipping some facts)
Peter S. wrote:
And then there's the classic passage on genocide as karmic necessity:
"The forces which determine man's racial character follow this cosmic
pattern. The American Indians died out, not because of European
persecutions, but because they were destined to succumb to those forces
which hastened their extinction." (p. 76)
Whenever I see this particular quote (and others having to do with
"savages," I still feel distressed. How do you *feel* when you read these
words, Percedol?
Percedol wrote:
)Later in his article -and this is unrelated to the series above
)mentioned - P. writes that 'Steiner was unwilling to accept a
)brown-skinned Hindu lad as the next 'spitual master'.
)[There is no reference to such a statement referring to the skin color
)of Jiddu Krishnamurti from RS.
Peter S. replied:
Indeed. Had there been one, I would have quoted it. My description was based
not on Steiner's public statements about Krishnamurti (which were relatively
reserved, in contrast to his contemporaneous statements about the leadership
of the Theosophical Society), but on his other statements about the racial
status of Asians, the future direction of racial evolution, the spiritual
significance of skin color, the obsolete and inferior character of Eastern
spiritual traditions, and so forth.
Walden: I remember having problems some time ago - with your
interpretation, as well, Peter. After a little reading, however, I do not
think you are stretching for an explanation here. Here is another quote
regarding Hindu thought and the Christ Impulse (albeit, slightly off topic
in this case):
"Not only is it characteristic of Hindu thought, if not of all Asian
religious perception, however, that its entire attention is directed to the
time preceding the appearance of the Christ impulse, but also that the state
of religious perception is preserved as it was in those days. If something
remains behind in the evolutionary process it can be interpreted to have
absorbed something luciferic, and for this reason Asian religious evolution
is the carrier of a luciferic element. A glance at the religious development
of Asia will inform us that it contains much of what mankind as a whole once
possessed but was later forced to abandon. We must in part cleanse Western
culture of the luciferic remnants and in part we must elevate them in such a
way that the Christ impulse can enter." (Steiner, Rudolf. Christ in Relation
to Lucifer and Ahriman. (1915) Trans. Peter Mollenhauer, Ph.D. Spring
Valley, NY: Anthroposophic Press, 1978.
On the forgery thread...
I often try to put myself in various positions or camps in order to *grok*
(completely understand/empathize/take-in, etc.) various points of view.
While I always appreciate hearing from anthroposophically inclined list
members, in the case of this "forgery" thread, I am left wondering whether
Percedol(s) have misinterpreted the definition of the word "forgery" or
he/they are not willing to look at the facts surrounding the allegation?
From where I sit, we can agree to disagree with some interpretation but the
"forgery" label on Peter's article is out of line. Steiner did not, in
fact, travel Norway delivering lectures at that time. The lecture in
question was delivered only in Oslo. That seems to be the focus of the
argument. Forgery?
If you look at your claim from this point of view... can you see how a
simple apology might be in order, Percedol? Truth, accountability and
social responsibility are integral parts of real communication. I hope we
can keep communicating.
-Walden
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1089
-- Topica Digest --
RE: New person
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: was "New person"
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: Percedol on racism
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: facts and forgeries
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: Percedol on racism
By Percedol netscape.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 10:47:48 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: New person
Percedol to Lysa:
"My suggestion about your longing to learn these techniques:
I suspect that if you side with the w-critics you might not get support
from those who could teach you what you are looking for.
When you can, go to an A. branch in California, talk to them and ask if
there are classes where you can learn that. Explain your reasons and
intentions. There may be books, too. Show your enthusiasm and maybe go
there several times, so that they may start to know you better.
Don't give up at the first attempt."
This is the advice you would give someone who is interested in joining a
secret society - not a teacher simply looking for information on a
particular method or pedagogy. Why in the world would a person have to
"go there several times" just to get information on which books or
classes might be useful? You make it sound like she will have to prove
her intentions and wait for them to decide if she is friend or foe. To
learn about a teaching method? She would have to hide the fact that she
has heard critical opinions of this pedagogy? Why? She is just looking
for information.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 11:05:51 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: was "New person"
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Lysa:
"We read and compare myths in second and third grade. I have the
manipulatives to help a child make a Venn diagram comparing and
contrasting myths."
Hi Lysa - Waldorf educators would not do this - either manipulatives or
Venn diagrams - in second or third grade or probably ever - it would
ruin it. In the Waldorf view these approaches simply are not compatible
- you can't just integrate them, they are opposing. What you are doing
would be seen as terribly damaging to the children. (I do not agree, I
am just explaining the Waldorf POV.)
In Waldorf terms, you would be destroying the power of the myths by
encouraging children to do things like "compare and contrast." They are
only supposed to "live in" them. They are never supposed to think about
them at all. They must think through pictures and must be actively
prevented from comparing and contrasting. Waldorf is thoroughly
anti-intellectual. But your misconceptions about Waldorf are widespread
- people think art is "integrated" in order to help with academics, or
provide balance to academics. The reality is art - a few strictly
controlled and regimented techniques - is used to *prevent* academic
progress as most of us would understand it - to take up hours of the day
that would be used at other schools on such things as discussions or
writing assignments comparing and contrasting or reflecting, and to
discourage children from acquiring the ability to think this way at all,
for as long as possible.
"I have other materials to help them understand the geography and
culture of the places where they are from, and I have tools to help them
write comparative essays on the different myths"
In Waldorf they would not try to help the children think about myths in
the context of the geography and culture of their origin, which would
work against the children understanding the supposed deep universal
spiritual truths in myths through a feeling/imaginative/soul process,
not through reading, writing, discussing, and thinking. They are
supposed to paint a picture so that they will *not* compare and
contrast. No second or third grader writes a "comparative essay" in
Waldorf. (Depending on what the state standards mean by "comparative
essay," exactly, I'd probably agree these standards are very burdensome
and probably not appropriate for that age anyway, but my point is you
won't get sympathetic help from Waldorfers in trying to integrate
something artistic into this, they don't think you should be doing it in
the first place.)
"aside from handing them crayons and paper and telling them to draw a
scene or giving them cardboard, tissue paper and so on and having them
make dioramas from the myth, I have no way of integrating art into the
standard."
Waldorf kids just illustrate the story too. What is wrong with handing
them crayons and paper, anyway? My personal opinion is that a little
diorama-making goes a long way anyway (we have diorama burnout at my
house), and many of these projects serve little purpose other than
getting the teacher a few minutes of time to herself. Nothing wrong with
that, but personally I'm puzzled by why everyone seems to long for
things to be "arts integrated" for kids these days. Nobody has a magical
formula for "integrating" arts - everyone is handing out crayons and
paper. My personal opinion is that the urge to "integrate" the arts
usually is in support of a much more complicated agenda, much more ends
up getting "integrated" than just more time spent on art. (Waldorf
educators would agree, among themselves, that the agenda is much more
complicated than just "more art," but they feel their prospective client
base doesn't need to know that.)
Where did we get this idea art had to be in the middle of every subject?
Any kid who is inspired to draw or paint a picture related to the story
will probably do so anyway, later at home if not in class. For the rest,
what was wrong with old-fashioned art classes? If the art teacher is
good, and art materials are well supplied, art classes can be great and
there is not really a need to make everyone get creative in response to
every history lesson or literature discussion, in my opinion.
Half-heartedly shoving make-work art projects into the middle of
everything kind of dumbs down real art education too.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 18:13:04 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Percedol on racism
Hello Percedol,
a few days ago Ylva pointed out that you have been systematically avoiding
the questions other list members pose to you, and missing the point of the
threads you reply to, including threads that you start yourself. (Your
response to Ylva was to ask "What is the real point?"; I imagine I am not
the only one who got a good laugh out of that response.) Since you seem to
have forgotten the point of this thread already, I'll try to restate it:
The question you raised, and which I addressed, was whether or not Rudolf
Steiner's racial doctrines -- for example, the ones he details in his book
on 'national souls' -- are racist. You ignored this question, and instead
made the curious assertion that critics of racism believe that any mention
of race is ipso facto racist. You went on to claim that the Inquisition was
not a Christian affair, and that Steiner and anthroposophy "have nothing to
do with" the actual recorded history of the anthroposophical movement. Those
are most interesting claims, but they are unrelated to the question you were
supposedly discussing.
It seems to me that your latest post suffers from the very same problem;
your remarks about Steiner's book on 'national souls' say next to nothing
about the text itself, and as usual you use the term "anthroposophy" to
refer to your own private belief system rather than to actually existing
anthroposophy. I suppose this shouldn't surprise me; after all, you told us
last year that attempts to understand anthroposophy, as a doctrine and as a
movement, are "demonic". That would certainly explain why you are straining
so hard to avoid any attempt to understand it... In any case, this attitude
of yours makes any meaningful exchange on the topic of Steiner's racial
doctrines effectively impossible, but maybe everybody here is used to that
by now. Let's take a look at your latest round of remarks:
)In that cycles there is a description of the origin and some
)characteristics of the different races.
Yes indeed. When a description of the characteristics of different races
includes value judgements about the relative worth of these characteristics
arranged in a system of hierarchical ranking, that description is racist.
This is a very simple notion, and is part of the basic definition of racism.
If you would like to argue that Steiner's descriptions do not in fact
fulfill this criterion of racism, all you need to do is explain all of the
essential spiritual differences between races that he emphasizes in this
book and his ranking of them in terms of comparative levels of maturity and
evolutionary advancement. In other words: tell us why it isn't racist to
say, for example, that the Negro race is substantially determined by
childhood characteristics.
)A bad intentioned person might
)use that knowledge to make discriminations, but in that case he or she
)has not understood the spiritual science and the way to use that
)knoweldge.
You have confused intentions with beliefs. The kind of racism we have been
talking about all along is a body of beliefs, a set of ideas, that one can
either embrace or reject. One's intentions have nothing to do with whether
such a set of ideas is racist. Many people who hold racist ideas are well
intentioned. Moreover, a thoroughly racist belief system need not encompass
any act of "making discrimination", assuming you mean racial discrimination
in the legal sense. If you disagree with either of those elementary points,
then you should probably explain what you mean by "racist". Last, your
personal views on the proper use of "spiritual science" are utterly
immaterial to our discussion; we are talking about actually existing
anthroposophy, not your private variant of it.
)No, I wrote that what the lecture says is that races would originate
)from a spiritual influence [the irregular spirits of the form].
)Therefore, there is a spiritual cause. We live in a world of effects ,
)here there are no causes [just to paraphrase Meyrink].
That's all very nice, but it is directly contradicted by the lengthy Steiner
quotation you are supposedly responding to. Steiner says very clearly that
"racial characteristics" have a biological origin and are hereditary. Could
you perhaps reply to what Steiner actually wrote?
As far as your replies to what I wrote, here is my favorite bit. I said:
) ) "Being racist" means, among other things, imputing moral and
) ) intellectual
) ) differences to racial groups, and attributing spiritual significance to
) ) these supposed differences, as Steiner did throughout his racial
) ) writings.
And then you said:
)Everything is at a different level: for example I am not equal to a
)Buddha. I would not be surprised that there are not two people at the
)same level. Some are more advanced than others.
)The more advanced have to help the others to progress.
If you are saying that the Aryan race is "at a different level" from the
other races, that different racial groups are "not equal" in terms of their
spiritual development, that whites and blacks are not "at the same level" of
maturity, that some racial groups "are more advanced than others", and that
more advanced races have to help less advanced races to progress, then you
are indeed in complete agreement with Rudolf Steiner's racial doctrines.
Every one of those beliefs is racist, without exception and without
qualification. If you disagree with that assessment, you've got a lot of
explaining to do. If, on the other hand, you do not really hold those
beliefs, then please clarify what your paragraph above means.
When I pointed out that "anthroposophy says very clearly that the level of
development of each individual's "I" is directly dependent on that
individual's race and ethnicity," you replied:
)I understand that the use of the word "I" may be misleading. I am using
)the word I to mean the 'Atman' [also 'higher I'] of each individual, not
)our contingent 'ego'.
There was nothing misleading about your use of the anthroposophical term
"I", and I used it to mean precisely the same thing that you mean. Steiner's
teachings on this point are not ambiguous; he says flat out that different
racial and ethnic groups show disparate levels of development of the "I".
This belief, as I have reminded you once already, is racist.
)Each person, being an individual no matter from
)which ethnicity, race, people, etc. can experience that, the I, and
)therefore be at a level that is beyond race, people, nation, etc.
No, that is not what anthroposophy teaches. According to anthroposophical
race doctrine, only white people, and particularly Germans, are in a
position to progress "beyond race, people, nation, etc." I have demonstrated
this for you again and again with numerous quotes from Steiner and other
anthroposophists, past and present, including your fellow Italian
anthroposophist Pietro Archiati. If you alone were somehow empowered to
dictate the content of anthroposophy as such, your ruminations on this topic
would be of interest, but since you are not, your sentence above is entirely
beside the point.
Regarding the Inquisition, I noted:
) ) Christians who refuse to acknowledge the past institutional
) ) crimes of their predecessors are in denial of their own history. Same
) ) goes for anthroposophists.
And you replied:
)I mean that these people might have been baptized, and therefore
)formally christians, but what they did was not a Christian thing, they
)were not Christians in this sense. The same is valid for
)Anthroposophists.
That premise is absurd. It is valid for neither christians nor
anthroposophists. This approach to historical questions is pure fantasy; you
think you can ignore what real live anthroposophists have done, in favor of
your own idealized view of what counts as authentically anthroposophical
actions. If you think that premise through for about five seconds, you will
see how preposterous its implications are: the holocaust was not a Nazi
thing, because after all real genuine Nazis didn't have anything to do with
it, only a few random people who happened to be formally Nazis. That would
be a handy way of escaping historical responsibility, but it doesn't make
the slightest bit of sense. People who identifiy with anthroposophy today
need to take seriously what their forebears did in the name of
anthroposophical principles.
)You can say that it had a bit to do with the Society or some of his
)members, but not with Anthroposophy.
That sentence is simply meaningless, because you keep confusing
anthroposophy as it exists in the real world with your abstract image of
true anthroposophy. Don't take this the wrong way, Percedol, but nobody else
cares about your own private vision of anthroposophical truth; what the rest
of us are talking about is the existing anthroposophical movement and the
beliefs and actions of its constituent members.
)It would be a mistake to identify
)'per se' the AS with A. after the death of RS.
Yes, it would, because the Anthroposophical Society is too narrow a body to
count as the formal criterion for active involvement in the anthroposophical
movement; anthroposophy also includes biodynamic practitioners, Waldorf
educators, the Chrisitian Community, and lots of other forms of
anthroposophical belief and practice that are organizationally distinct from
the Anthroposophical Society.
)The Vatican that ordered the Inquisition did not act under the Spirit of
)Christianity, quite the opposite.
So what? Nobody said anything about "the Spirit of Christianity" or its
ostensible opposites; we weren't discussing your personal opinions on proper
christian comportment, we were discussing the actual behavior of christians
and the documented history of christian institutions. Same goes for
anthroposophy: I haven't made any claims whatsoever about "the Spirit of
Anthroposophy", rather I have pointed out a number of historical facts about
the actual behavior of leading anthroposophists and the documented history
of anthroposophical institutions. If you cannot grasp the difference, you
might want to reconsider discussing this history in a public forum.
)I don't see anything wrong with the principles and teachings of
)Anthroposophy.
Yes, that's exactly what I said several days ago. The fact that you do not
see anything wrong with anthroposophical racial doctrine confirms my thesis
about the state of your movement today. Here, once again, is a small
sampling of the principles and teachings of Anthroposophy on the question of
race:
"One can only understand history and all of social life, including today's
social life, if one pays attention to people's racial characteristics. And
one can only understand all that is spiritual in the correct sense if one
first examines how this spiritual element operates within people precisely
through the color of their skin." (Steiner, Vom Leben des Menschen und der
Erde)
"A race or a nation stands so much the higher, the more perfectly its
members express the pure, ideal human type, the further they have worked
their way from the physical and perishable to the supersensible and
imperishable. The evolution of man through the incarnations in ever higher
national and racial forms is thus a process of liberation." (Steiner,
Knowledge of Higher Worlds)
"These two races which followed the actual root-race were incapable of
developing, they were overripe, so to speak. You may still see stragglers of
these old overripe races to-day, especially among the Chinese. This Chinese
people is characterized by the fact that it has not identified itself with
what was manifested in the fifth race, the root-race." (Steiner, Apocalypse
of John)
"How could people fail to notice the profound differences, in terms of
spiritual culture, between the European and the Asian peoples. How could
they fail to notice this differentiation, which is tied to external skin
color!" (Steiner, Die geistigen Hintergruende des Ersten Weltkrieges)
"You might now be inclined to say: Is it not an extremely bitter thought
that whole bodies of peoples remain immature and do not develop their
capacities; that only a small group becomes capable of providing the germ
for the next civilization? This thought will no longer disquiet you if you
distinguish between race-development and individual soul-development, for no
soul is condemned to remain in one particular race. The race may fall
behind; the community of people may remain backward, but the souls progress
beyond the several races. If we wish to form a true conception of this we
must say that
all the souls now living in bodies in civilized countries were formerly
incarnated in Atlantean bodies. A few developed there in the requisite
manner, and did not remain in Atlantean bodies. As they had developed
further they could become the souls of the bodies which had also progressed
further. Only the souls which as souls had remained backward had to take
bodies which as bodies had remained at a lower stage. If all the souls had
progressed, the backward races would either have decreased very much in
population, or the bodies would be occupied by newly incoming souls at a low
stage of development. For there are always souls which can inhabit backward
bodies. No soul is bound to a backward body if it does not bind itself to
it. The relation between soul-development and race-development is preserved
to us in a wonderful myth. Let us imagine race following race, civilization
following civilization. The soul going through its earth mission in the
right way is incarnated in a certain race; it strives upward in this race,
and acquires the capacities of this race in order next time to be incarnated
in a higher one. Only the souls which sink in the race and do not work out
of the physical materiality, are held back in the race by their own weight,
as one might say. They appear a second time in the same race and eventually
a third time in bodies in similarly formed races. Such souls hold back the
bodies of the race." (Steiner, Apocalypse of John)
"People who listen to the great leaders of humankind, and preserve their
soul with its eternal essence, reincarnate in an advanced race; in the same
way he who ignores the great teacher, who rejects the great leader of
humankind, will always reincarnate in the same race, because he was only
able to develop the one form. This is the deeper meaning of Ahasver, who
must always reappear in the same form because he rejected the hand of the
greatest leader, Christ. Thus each person has the opportunity to become
caught up in the essence of one incarnation, to push away the leader of
humankind, or instead to undergo the transformation into higher races,
toward ever higher perfection. Races would never become decadent, never
decline, if there weren't souls that are unable to move up and unwilling to
move up to a higher racial form. Look at the races that have survived from
earlier eras: they only exist because some souls could not climb higher."
(Steiner, Das Hereinwirken geistiger Wesenheiten in den Menschen)
"Look at the colours to be found in Asia, from the Negroes to the yellow
races. Hence you have bodies that are sheaths for every possible level of
soul, from the completely passive Negro soul entirely given up the outer
world of physical existence, to the other levels of passive souls in every
possible part of Asia. Various characteristics of the evolution of the
Asiatic and African peoples will now be comprehensible to you: they present
various combinations of surrender to the environment and the external
manifestation of ego-feeling. So fundamentally we have two groups of people
representing combinations: those on European soil, forming the root stock of
the white population, who had predominantly developed the feeling of
personality [...] On the other hand there are those peoples in Asia with
passive, self-effacing natures in whom just this passivity expresses itself
in the highest degree. This makes the people dreamy, and the etheric body
penetrates very deeply into the physical body. That is the fundamental
difference between the European and the Asiatic peoples." (Steiner, The
Being of Man and His Future Evolution)
"This thorough impregnation of the flesh by the spirit is characteristic of
the mission of white humanity, the whole mission of white humankind. People
have white skin color because the spirit works within the skin when it wants
to descend to the physical plane. [...] where the spirit is retarded, where
it takes on a demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then
white skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh."
(Steiner, Die geistigen Hintergruende des Ersten Weltkrieges)
This is only a limited selection of the racial "principles and teachings"
that anthroposophists like Percedol find unobjectionable. He is by no means
unusual in this regard. I think that anybody looking to learn more about
what anthroposophists believe and how their projects work would do well to
keep this stark reality in mind.
Peter Staudenmaier
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 21:53:39 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: facts and forgeries
Hi Walden,
thanks as always for your posts. You wrote:
)On the forgery thread...
)
)I often try to put myself in various positions or camps in order to *grok*
)(completely understand/empathize/take-in, etc.) various points of view.
)While I always appreciate hearing from anthroposophically inclined list
)members, in the case of this "forgery" thread, I am left wondering whether
)Percedol(s) have misinterpreted the definition of the word "forgery" or
)he/they are not willing to look at the facts surrounding the allegation?
)From where I sit, we can agree to disagree with some interpretation but the
)"forgery" label on Peter's article is out of line. Steiner did not, in
)fact, travel Norway delivering lectures at that time. The lecture in
)question was delivered only in Oslo. That seems to be the focus of the
)argument. Forgery?
I have no idea whether the various Percedols really understand what they're
saying when they cry "forgery", but the anthroposophist who invented this
tall tale clearly understands what he is saying. Sune Nordwall describes my
"forgery" as analogous to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, one of the
best known forgeries in history. That document really was forged, and passed
off as authentic, appearing in numerous published editions. Obviously Sune
grasps the meaning of the term "forgery". Sune has repeatedly insisted that
the very existence of these Steiner lectures is at issue. At the openwaldorf
forum, for example, he wrote very emphatically: "What I refer to is the
actual EXISTENCE of the "lecture" you state in the introduction exists as
you describe it, and that you persistently in all discussions about it have
continued to assert the "existence" of, in spite of that all known and
mentioned documentation have pointed to the opposite."
I think this is a puerile way of avoiding the real question, which is not of
course whether these lectures took place, but whether their content is
racist. I have said this every single time Sune has raised the ridiculous
notion of "forgery", to no avail. I am at a loss to explain this genuinely
bizarre behavior; if the lectures didn't exist, then why do anthroposophists
continue to publish them? Why does Sune himself have them posted at his own
website? Why does Percedol quote them as Steiner's own words? The only
rational conclusion, as far as I can see, is that these anthroposophists are
not interested in a discussion of whether the content of these lectures is
racist; they prefer to deflect that question by pretending that I made the
lectures up out of thin air. All of the stuff about Oslo, Norway, etc is
completely beside the point; even if I had said that these lectures took
place in Toledo or Shanghai or on the moon, that would scarcely count as
"forgery".
It seems obvious to me that the entire discussion is a transparent attempt
to distract attention away from the content of Steiner's lectures. The
forgery charge plays the same role as all the various charges that I have
"lied" about Steiner's writings. This childish level of discourse is not,
unfortunately, all that uncommon among anthroposophists; the general
anthroposophical inability to respond to informed criticism is probably the
single greatest stumbling block to reasonable discussion on the question of
Steiner's racial doctrines. Until that pitiful pattern changes, it will be
up to the rest of us to work out the significance of anthroposophical
teachings on 'national souls' and 'root races' on our own.
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 06:15:18 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Percedol on racism
Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
) That sentence is simply meaningless, because you keep confusing
) anthroposophy as it exists in the real world with your abstract image of
)
) true anthroposophy. Don't take this the wrong way, Percedol, but nobody
) else
) cares about your own private vision of anthroposophical truth; what the
) rest
) of us are talking about is the existing anthroposophical movement and
) the
) beliefs and actions of its constituent members.
P:
Then why should I waste my time, by discussing about my 'abstract' image
of A. (Because you have a 'real' one, instead)
You can deal with what uses the formal name of a. movement and its
members and their actions. I am not part of it.
But you distorted and gave a false image of RS and his work.
If people want to believe your lies, they deserve it.
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1090
-- Topica Digest --
RE: Percedol on racism
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
By dan dandugan.com
RE: on forgery
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Percedol on racism
By dan dandugan.com
Re: New person
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Percedol on racism
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Admin: ad hominem warning
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 13:19:15 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Percedol on racism
Hello Percedol,
that was a remarkably non-responsive reply. You said nothing at all about
the topic you raised, namely racism, made no comment on any of the direct
quotations from Steiner that I offered, and you did not explain why you felt
compelled to emphasize the notion that some people are "not equal" and "at
different levels" and "more advanced than others" in the midst of a
discussion of races and racial character. Shall we then assume that you
really do think that racial groups are unequal and at different levels of
development and that some races are more advanced than others and must help
their less fortunate racial inferiors to progress?
As for what you did say in your latest contribution, here are my thoughts:
)Then why should I waste my time, by discussing about my 'abstract' image
)of A. (Because you have a 'real' one, instead)
Surely you recognize that there is a difference between the private version
of anthroposophy that you have developed for yourself and the collection of
beliefs and practices that all of the other anthroposophists out there call
"anthroposophy". If you recognize that basic distinction, then there are
many reasons to spend your time getting to know what anthroposophy is
actually like in the real world; for one thing, it would help your
contributions to public discussion forums on anthroposophical topics make a
good deal more sense. I am not, by the way, asking you to adopt my image of
anthroposophy, I am simply asking you to start talking about the really
existing anthroposophist movement, past and present, with all of its
complexities, rather than fixating on your idealized vision of what
'anthroposophy' ought to mean. If you truly think that this would be a waste
of your time, then I am afraid I have no more advice to offer.
)You can deal with what uses the formal name of a. movement and its
)members and their actions.
That is quite obviously not what I deal with. Formal attributes, such as
membership in the Anthroposophical Society, are not at all what I focus on.
I rely instead on a common sense understanding of anthroposophical
activities, from Weleda to Waldorf, that is shared by anthropsophists and
non-anthroposophists alike. The biodynamic leaders I mentioned who
collaborated with the Nazis, such as Lippert and Bartsch, were indisputably
anthroposophists, and very prominent ones at that, regardless of their
formal membership in any organization. If you are not interested in
discussing those actions of past anthroposophists, then why on earth did you
join the thread on biodynamics in WWII?
)I am not part of it.
Yes, you are part of the broader anthroposophical movement, even though a
number of other anthroposophists wish you weren't. If you are somehow
convinced that you have nothing in common with the rest of the
anthroposophical world, you might want to consider finding a new label for
your own belief system.
)But you distorted and gave a false image of RS and his work.
At this point, after the pathetic excuse of "forgery" has lost its cachet,
it's hard to tell what you mean by that charge. Are you trying to say that I
falsified the Steiner quotes I provided yesterday? If so, wouldn't it be
rather easy for you to demonstrate that, and show everybody else here how
devious and unreliable I am? Just give the genuine quotes and indicate where
I distorted or falsified them. Or are you trying to say that I have invented
historical claims about Steiner that are untrue? If so, which ones? Or are
you trying to say that you are in direct contact with Steiner's departed
spirit, and he told you that I got his teachings all wrong? If so, could you
tell us just what Steiner did mean with his racial doctrines?
)If people want to believe your lies, they deserve it.
This claptrap about "lies" is juvenile. Pretending that those who disagree
with you are lying is as goofy as your obfuscations about "forgery". People
who read Steiner differently from you are not lying, Percedol. Is this how
you usually behave in public forums? Instead of responding with rational
argument and factual data, you simply accuse your interlocutors of
dishonesty and deception? And you consider this behavior, moreover, a form
of spiritual maturity and enlightenment? If that's what you think "spiritual
science" is all about, I'll stick to good old demonic reason, knowledge and
evidence.
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:26:28 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
Percedol, you wrote:
)I guess that the basis for your warning is based solely on the idea that
)I am simply giving a link to a web site without knowing wnything of the
)subject.
No. The basis of my warning is that you have called the work of
another subscriber a forgery. This is a serious matter.
Peter Staudenmaier has defended both his quotations and his opinions
well here. You owe him and us an apology for your inflammatory
language.
Dan Dugan
Moderator
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 18:07:51 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: on forgery
Percedol, you wrote,
)Being racists is a different matter. I can see the differences but do
)not discriminate.
Of course everybody can see different colors of skin. And people of
good will, and I will assume you are one, do not discriminate against
people based on the color of their skin. What you don't understand is
that it is also racism to hold false beliefs about race, like
believing that races have divinely ordained roles in evolution, and
that some races are "left behind."
Despite Anthroposophists' good intentions, these beliefs do lead to
discrimination in Waldorf schools. Some teachers treat children from
non-white ethnic groups differently in accordance with what they have
learned from "spiritual science."
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 18:21:28 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Percedol on racism
Percedol, you wrote,
)In that cycles there is a description of the origin and some
)characteristics of the different races. A bad intentioned person might
)use that knowledge to make discriminations, but in that case he or she
)has not understood the spiritual science and the way to use that
)knoweldge.
Can you give me some examples of how a good-intentioned person would
use this purported "knowledge"?
)Everything is at a different level: for example I am not equal to a
)Buddha. I would not be surprised that there are not two people at the
)same level. Some are more advanced than others.
)The more advanced have to help the others to progress.
If you're talking about the spiritual development of individuals, you
could only be accused of elitism. But if don't repudiate Steiner's
teachings that some races are more advanced than others, you are
collaborating in institutionalized racism.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:44:49 -0400
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: New person
) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
--MS_Mac_OE_3140977489_254680_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
That's interesting about the English as a second language students. I just
interviewed the principal of a very large public middle school here in the
Baltimore area who has a very large population of ESOL students; her school,
in fact, is considered a "magnet" ESOL school.
This principal told me that people assumed that the ESOL kids (kids who come
to the school with a language other than English as their first language)
would bring down the overall scores of the students at the school on
standardized tests. So the principal aggregated the scores and guess what?
She found that the ESOL kids, on average, scored 2 points higher than kids
whose first language was English! And keeping in mind that the school in
question is highly academic and high achieving (at least based on test
scores), this is saying something.
During my period of temporary insanity (read: when I was a Waldorf parent)
I, too, believed that all standardized tests were horrible things. I have
since come to believe that, when used wisely, they can be one of many
effective tools to measure student achievement. Are they the be all and end
all of education? Of course not. But give me a decently designed
standardized test any day over Waldorf's loosey-goosey,
they'll-learn-when-the-time-is-right attitude that leaves so many students
behind.
Lisa, who learned the hard way that all things done in public schools are
not horrible, bad, non-child-friendly, etc.
From: Lysa De Thomas (redwoodforest msn.com)
Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:07:18 -0700
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: New person
Interesting. In my district we have one charter school and three special
programs (GATE, Special Day Class, and Montessori) Being in one of these
programs just means not having to use the textbooks or other district
mandated materials and testing (they are REALLY into benchmark testing at
the moment. Evil, pure evil) But we are mandated to teach to the standards
even the Special Day Classes.
That's one of the problems with standardize testing - the games that are
played with it. For a long time we used the SAT - 9 which was normed in
Iowa. 5% of the population were second language learners, were classified
as "learning diabled" and were exempted. In my school 85% of the population
are second language learners. Of course we weren't allowed to only test 15%
of our students, so we have to test them all, even the ones who arrive the
day before from Mexico and have never been in a school in their lives. (We
had two this year) Is it any wonder why our scores don't compare?
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Dugan
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 2:30 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: New person
Lysa De Thomas, you wrote:
)We read and compare myths in second and third grade. I have the
)manipulatives to help a child make a Venn diagram comparing and
)contrasting myths. I have other materials to help them understand
)the geography and culture of the places where they are from, and I
)have tools to help them write comparative essays on the different
)myths (all second and third grade California standards, so please
)don't get on my case about how Montessorians push children too fast.
)Take that up with the California Board of Regents. Public Waldorf
)schools would have to adhere to the same standards.)
Actually, California charter schools aren't required to meet
standards. The only feedback is the annual standardized tests. In the
past the public Waldorfs have gotten around that with parental
exemptions for the weaker students, but because of the abuse those
rules have been tightened up recently.
-Dan Dugan
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New thr
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
==^^===============================================================
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 22:34:05 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Percedol on racism
) P:
) Then why should I waste my time, by discussing about my 'abstract' image
) of A. (Because you have a 'real' one, instead)
) You can deal with what uses the formal name of a. movement and its
) members and their actions. I am not part of it.
) But you distorted and gave a false image of RS and his work.
) If people want to believe your lies, they deserve it.
I find this response to be - quite honestly - rude. I guess I was expecting
more. Percedol, I have actually enjoyed some of your posts here and have no
doubt you are following what you believe to be a worthwhile path having to
do with anthroposophic insight. Some time ago I felt confused when you
informed the list you were, in fact, more than one person. I don't
understand the reasoning behind two or more people posting under the same
name, but I was willing to accept this and simply read what was posted under
your name in order to further my own understanding of anthroposophy. To
each his (their) own....
I do not, however, understand the reasons for one list member to call
another's work "forgery" and when this claim is proven to be false, go on to
call the same member a liar. How can this possibly add to the discussion in
any way other than for me (for example) to find these labels disrespectful
and rude? You have made serious claims here. Peter S. has painstakingly
explained -- point-by-point --where your claim falls apart and your only
response is to call him a liar and state that anyone who believes his "lies"
deserves it. This makes no sense to me.
I have asked you a couple of questions in previous posts. My questions were
sincere and had to do with your own *feelings* as opposed to the historical
accuracy of any particular Steiner quotes. You have not answered my
questions.
Would any other anthroposophically inclined list members care to shed Light
on this subject.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 23:37:33 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: ad hominem warning
Percedol, you wrote to Peter Staudenmaier,
)If people want to believe your lies, they deserve it.
This is an ad hominem, Percedol. That means your argument attacks the
person, rather than the issue being discussed. Ad hominem arguments
are not allowed on this list. This is your second warning. If you
continue to offend you will be unsubscribed.
-Dan Dugan
Moderator
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1091
-- Topica Digest --
RE: Percedol on racism
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: on forgery
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
By jaquesdm msn.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 05:28:40 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Percedol on racism
walden wrote:
)
) ) P:
) ) Then why should I waste my time, by discussing about my 'abstract' image
) ) of A. (Because you have a 'real' one, instead)
) ) You can deal with what uses the formal name of a. movement and its
) ) members and their actions. I am not part of it.
) ) But you distorted and gave a false image of RS and his work.
) ) If people want to believe your lies, they deserve it.
)
) I find this response to be - quite honestly - rude.
P:
You may find this rude, but it is a pain to see that to one "l**" (this
word appears to be forbidden here, it follows as a response another
"l**".
Read again this:
Later in his article -and this is unrelated to the series above
mentioned - P. writes that 'Steiner was unwilling toaccept a
brown-skinned Hindu lad as the next 'spitual master'.
[There is no reference to such a statement referring to the skin color
of Jiddu Krishnamurti from RS.
PS replied:
Indeed. Had there been one, I would have quoted it. My description was
based
not on Steiner's public statements about Krishnamurti (which were
relatively
reserved, in contrast to his contemporaneous statements about the
leadership
of the Theosophical Society), but on his other statements about the
racial
status of Asians, the future direction of racial evolution, the
spiritual
significance of skin color, the obsolete and inferior character of
Eastern
spiritual traditions, and so forth.
P:
İ There were totally different reasons,
i.e. that S. could not accept that The Christ Being could reincarnate at
all a second time. It was not because of a racist prejudice.
PS repled:
Those two things are not at all incompatible. Steiner did not simply
declare
that no living person could be the reincarnation of Christ,
[he said that the Christ Being incarnated only ONCE in history and will
never again! He said that to have two incarnations of the Christ would
equivalent to have two fulcri in a balance, which makes no sense. He
said that if anybody will say that someone is the reicarnated Christ,
that would be false.]
he pointedly
ridiculed the notion that this "Hindu lad" (that is Steiner's own term,
not
mine) could embody the Christ.
The poor kid wasn't even a Christian,
[This is Peter's comment, I have never heard of RS saying that he was
not even a Christian! RS could not say this because he stated that the
Christ will never incarnate again! The mentioning of being or not being
Christian is ridiculous. BTW, Jesus was not a Christian, right?! But can
we say that the Christ was Christian?]
and
thus falied Steiner's chief test of adequacy for cosmic leadership.
[This is another of PS's point of views, not RS's. Actually, Jesus was a
Jew, and by following Peter's interpretation of A. this would be weird ,
too.]
At the
same time, Steiner encouraged his closer circle of followers to think of
him, Steiner, as the new appearance of Christ, according to reliable
reports
from these followers and their associates.
P:
Here is another "l**". How could RS encourage his closer circle (who
were they , BTW, and where is the reference for this allegation?) to
think of him as the new reappearance of Christ, when he stated that the
Christ will never appear again in the flesh and not to believe if anyone
said he was the Christ?
How can one deal with such an amount of "l***"?
Other anthroposophists had no
trouble grasping his point at the time; as one of them wrote, Steiner's
disciples believed that "since we are the most advanced race, we have
the
most advanced religion." That is why it was such an affront to the
anthroposophist mindset when the rest of the Theosophical movement cast
its
lot with Krishnamurti, who was neither racially nor religiously suited
to
the role, in their eyes.
P:
But according to the Indian Tradition (Veda) except for Dravidians ,
Indians are Aryans, so why Krishnamurti wouldn't it fit racially.
And it was A. Besant who supported this idea of the krishnamurti as the
new Master, in contrast with RS to provoke him in relationship with the
consequencees of the Leadbeater case.
P:
İ That statement in Peter's article is totally false.]
PS:
No, it is an entirely plausible interpretation of the available data,
though
it may well turn out to be inaccurate, partial, or beside the point.
History
is like that. I would like to point out that you have so far failed to
provide any substantial evidence at all for your preferred
interpretations
of Steiner's actions and writings, Percedol, while simultaneously
insisting
that my proposed readings are intentionally deceptive. I recommend that
you
re-acquaint yourself with the facts at issue here and reconsider your
opinion.
P:
What a courage!
Walden:
I guess I was expecting
) more. Percedol, I have actually enjoyed some of your posts here and
) have no
) doubt you are following what you believe to be a worthwhile path having
) to
) do with anthroposophic insight. Some time ago I felt confused when you
) informed the list you were, in fact, more than one person. I don't
) understand the reasoning behind two or more people posting under the
) same
) name, but I was willing to accept this and simply read what was posted
) under
) your name in order to further my own understanding of anthroposophy. To
) each his (their) own....
P:
If you remember I wrote that more people could write under that name.
That can still happen if someone wants to. So they don't need to use
another name or so.
)
) I do not, however, understand the reasons for one list member to call
) another's work "forgery" and when this claim is proven to be false, go
) on to
) call the same member a liar.
P:
About this story of the link I gave read this link:
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/plans1.html
So you have a response from the author.
How can this possibly add to the discussion in
) any way other than for me (for example) to find these labels
) disrespectful
) and rude? You have made serious claims here. Peter S. has
) painstakingly
) explained -- point-by-point --where your claim falls apart and your only
) response is to call him a liar and state that anyone who believes his
) "lies"
) deserves it. This makes no sense to me.
P:
You may have clue at this point of this post!
)
) I have asked you a couple of questions in previous posts. My questions
) were
) sincere and had to do with your own *feelings* as opposed to the
) historical
) accuracy of any particular Steiner quotes. You have not answered my
) questions.
P:
The two quotes you asked me about make no sense to me.
Did these authors state through which spiritual methods they reached
these conclusions? Or they just gave an opinion?
If they believe there is a sacrificial incarnation in a different race,
are they giving some example of whom were these individualities? Etc.
)
) Would any other anthroposophically inclined list members care to shed
) Light
) on this subject.
)
) -Walden
) )
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 05:31:40 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: on forgery
Dan Dugan wrote:
)
) Percedol, you wrote,
)
) )Being racists is a different matter. I can see the differences but do
) )not discriminate.
)
) Of course everybody can see different colors of skin. And people of
) good will, and I will assume you are one, do not discriminate against
) people based on the color of their skin. What you don't understand is
) that it is also racism to hold false beliefs about race, like
) believing that races have divinely ordained roles in evolution, and
) that some races are "left behind."
)
) Despite Anthroposophists' good intentions, these beliefs do lead to
) discrimination in Waldorf schools. Some teachers treat children from
) non-white ethnic groups differently in accordance with what they have
) learned from "spiritual science."
)
) -Dan Dugan
P:
I believe that this happens, but simply they did not learn the spiritual
science well enough or they would understand that they cannot use it for
discriminations.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 05:35:58 +0000
From: Percedol (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
Dan Dugan wrote:
)
) Percedol, you wrote:
)
) )I guess that the basis for your warning is based solely on the idea that
) )I am simply giving a link to a web site without knowing wnything of the
) )subject.
)
) No. The basis of my warning is that you have called the work of
) another subscriber a forgery. This is a serious matter.
)
) Peter Staudenmaier has defended both his quotations and his opinions
) well here. You owe him and us an apology for your inflammatory
) language.
)
) Dan Dugan
) Moderator
P:
To explain the use of the word from its author you can read:
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/two-mythologies.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 00:41:35 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
)Dan Dugan wrote:
))
)) Percedol, you wrote:
))
)) )I guess that the basis for your warning is based solely on the idea that
)) )I am simply giving a link to a web site without knowing wnything of the
)) )subject.
))
)) No. The basis of my warning is that you have called the work of
)) another subscriber a forgery. This is a serious matter.
))
)) Peter Staudenmaier has defended both his quotations and his opinions
)) well here. You owe him and us an apology for your inflammatory
)) language.
))
)) Dan Dugan
)) Moderator
)
)P:
)To explain the use of the word from its author you can read:
)http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/two-mythologies.htm
You wrote "forgery" here on this list, Percedol, and you are the
author here. You must apologize for making a false accusation.
-Dan Dugan
Moderator
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:03:47 +0000
From: (jaquesdm msn.com)
Subject: RE: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
Percedol wrote:
)
) P:
) To explain the use of the word from its author you can read:
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/comments/two-mythologies.htm
And so one is led to yet another Sune tirade reminiscent of those which
came the way of those of us who, during our association with
anthoposophy had the temerity to ask the NEXT question. So what?
Besides, the stated language of the list is English, not Anthrospeak.
By the way, "l***" .....this another way of an anthroposophist using
*lange du bois*? Seems to me that you might as well have spelled the
word out, its no less offensive for having the asterisks there.
Davy- my own name,in the U.K. One who had the temerity to ask the
questions during my seven years with the cult, still asking....
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1092
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
By Martinvb aol.com
Re: New person
By Redwoodforest msn.com
Re: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: biodynamics in WWII
By ulfva telia.com
Re: biodynamics in WWII
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Christ, Krishnamurti, and race
By pstaud hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:46:23 EDT
From: Martinvb aol.com
Subject: Re: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
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This relentless exchange on the ad hominem warning on the forgery is boring
in the extreme. Is this and the "New person" exchanges the extent of the
current criticisms?
MVB
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:23:33 -0700
From: "Lysa De Thomas" (Redwoodforest msn.com)
Subject: Re: New person
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Hi Lisa,
I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was against testing, I
certainly am not. I just get frustrated when it is done in a way that
I considered incorrectly.
As far as comparing the ESOL students to the main stream in that
magnet school and mine you would need to know more factors. Do they
come from educated homes where there is a rich environment? Are they
functional in their first language? How many years of English
language instruction have they had? What level of English language
proficiency have they mastered? Like everything else, there are lots
of ways to play the game. In certain places a child is labeled an EL
(English Learner) and then moves to an ESL level (English as a second
language) when they reach a certain level of proficiency. In these
places EL children are exempt from the test. Only the ESL students
take the test. In my school where 85% of the children are considered
EL's we can't exempt them because over half of our school would not
be taking the test.
First language proficiency is also important. Is the child
proficient in his L1 language? Is his vocabulary rich? Does she
create syntacally advanced sentences in her native language? How
much experience has the child had with the American middle class
culture? Children with a strong first language will in general do
better in a second. Children with a rich environment (home and/or
school) will in general do better then children in an impoverished
environments. Although I don't know for sure, I would assume that the
children in the Baltimore Magnet schools are children from families
who work in DC, probably in government. They probably have parents
who are educated (highly?) themselves, have been exposed to English,
are functional in their L1 and so on. All of this would make for a
highly sophisticated English learner. I can understand why people
might be worried that they wouldn't do as well as native speakers of
English, but they most likely have so many other variables, and have
a high level of exposure to the English language that I am sure they
do well.
I think I need to clarify the students in my school. Some of my
students come directly from Latin America in poor communities where
they never saw a school. After a month or so of English language
training they will not do well on a standardize test in English no
matter how bright they are or how hard they have worked to acquire
English. But in all honesty they are not the norm, they only make up
only about 10% of our student population in any given year. Most of
my students were born here or came as young children, yet since then
they have never been out of our area have no understanding of the
outside world. It is over an hours drive to the largest city with
anything more then a McDonalds or Wal-Mart (Even going to one of
these is an exciting out of the ordinary experience for my students).
They don't have TV, VCR's or video games in their homes. The they
have never seen the inside of a library (except for the one at that
school and the funding is being cut for that.) a museum, a zoo, a
bookstore, the ocean, a forest, a restaurant.... Their parents work
in the fields or clean buildings. Their idea of a vacation is a six
pack and a pack of cigarettes. English is not the language spoken in
their homes, it is usually a mixture of Spanish, native Mexican
Indian, and English. Even among the English speakers, their standard
English exposure is limited. A linguistic researcher just finished a
study of the English speakers here and found that the average English
speaker in my area has a 500 word vocabulary. Clearly very few of
our children are competent in an L1, let alone an L2 (in this case
English). My students are NOT dumb, but they are unexposed. They
lack the rich environment that so many of the other children with
whom they are compared with when they take a standardized test have.
It is one of the reasons for starting my program here. Because
Montessori is such a rich environment we wanted to see if it could
make a difference with these children. It has greatly. Our scores
average 40 points higher the rest of the district. But they still
aren't as high as ESL children from a wealthier environment. The
reason is only 47 percent of the test is covers the standards I am
supposed to teach to. The rest is added information that they are
supposed to get in their environments. (That's how you get the bell
curves.) That is wrong, we shouldn't judge them according their
environments. We certainly shouldn't judge how well a teacher
teachers with a test that mainly tests their environment. We
shouldn't ask them to take a test in a language that they are not
competent in. (Even the math tests are filled with word problems that
are hard enough for English only students, let alone someone who has
been speaking English for less than a year.)
This DOESN"T mean by any stretch of the imagination that I believe
that we need to do away with testing. Not at all. I think it is
sickening that we have children in this country that can't read in
high school or that a high school graduate can't do simple math
problems or write a complete sentence. I just think we need to
re-evaluate what we are trying to achieve by testing them. If it is
their level of English Language Development (Something I consider
very important) then that is what we should be testing them on. If
it is their mastery of that year's standards, then the test should be
100% standards base.
, ----- Original Message -----
From: Lisa D. Ercolano
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 6:52 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: New person
That's interesting about the English as a second language students. I
just interviewed the principal of a very large public middle school
here in the Baltimore area who has a very large population of ESOL
students; her school, in fact, is considered a "magnet" ESOL school.
This principal told me that people assumed that the ESOL kids (kids
who come to the school with a language other than English as their
first language) would bring down the overall scores of the students
at the school on standardized tests. So the principal aggregated the
scores and guess what? She found that the ESOL kids, on average,
scored 2 points higher than kids whose first language was English!
And keeping in mind that the school in question is highly academic
and high achieving (at least based on test scores), this is saying
something.
During my period of temporary insanity (read: when I was a Waldorf
parent) I, too, believed that all standardized tests were horrible
things. I have since come to believe that, when used wisely, they can
be one of many effective tools to measure student achievement. Are
they the be all and end all of education? Of course not. But give me
a decently designed standardized test any day over Waldorf's
loosey-goosey, they'll-learn-when-the-time-is-right attitude that
leaves so many students behind.
Lisa, who learned the hard way that all things done in public schools
are not horrible, bad, non-child-friendly, etc.
From: Lysa De Thomas (redwoodforest msn.com)
Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:07:18 -0700
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: New person
Interesting. In my district we have one charter school and three
special programs (GATE, Special Day Class, and Montessori) Being in
one of these programs just means not having to use the textbooks or
other district mandated materials and testing (they are REALLY into
benchmark testing at the moment. Evil, pure evil) But we are mandated
to teach to the standards even the Special Day Classes.
That's one of the problems with standardize testing - the games that
are played with it. For a long time we used the SAT - 9 which was
normed in Iowa. 5% of the population were second language learners,
were classified as "learning diabled" and were exempted. In my
school 85% of the population are second language learners.Of course
we weren't allowed to only test 15% of our students, so we have to
test them all, even the ones who arrive the day before from Mexico
and have never been in a school in their lives. (We had two this
year) Is it any wonder why our scores don't compare?
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Dugan
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 2:30 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: New person
Lysa De Thomas, you wrote:
)We read and compare myths in second and third grade. I have the
)manipulatives to help a child make a Venn diagram comparing and
)contrasting myths. I have other materials to help them understand
)the geography and culture of the places where they are from, and I
)have tools to help them write comparative essays on the different
)myths (all second and third grade California standards, so please
)don't get on my case about how Montessorians push children too fast.
)Take that up with the California Board of Regents. Public Waldorf
)schools would have to adhere to the same standards.)
Actually, California charter schools aren't required to meet
standards. The only feedback is the annual standardized tests. In the
past the public Waldorfs have gotten around that with parental
exemptions for the weaker students, but because of the abuse those
rules have been tightened up recently.
-Dan Dugan
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New thr
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:44:07 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
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MVB wrote:
"This relentless exchange on the ad hominem warning on the forgery is
boring in the extreme. Is this and the "New person" exchanges the
extent of the current criticisms?"
Welcome. Interesting that this exchange has brought you into the
discussion. There are many subjects to discuss as a quick search
will show. Or, start your own less "boring" subject. But, since you
have chosen this subject and posed a question I will try to help with
an answer. I do not see it as a "relentless exchange." A claim has
been made on the list by a list member - Percedol. The claim has
been proven to be false. There are guidelines on most lists whereby
ad hominems are not allowed. Dan had no choice, IMO, but to remind
Percedol of this fact. BTW, many list members have been reminded of
this rule (myself included). This thread, far from being "boring" is
all about accountability and social responsibility. In this case,
Peter Staudenmaier's work has been called "forgery" and "lies" *on
this list.* As a response to Dan's question, Percedol points us to a
web site that is confusing and strange, at best (I am trying to be
polite). Again, the allegations happened on *this* list by a member
of this list. Clearly, the claim is false. The integrity of the
list is important for *all* members. I have enjoyed some of
Percedols posts in the past but in this case he simply made a big
mistake, IMO, which needs to be addressed. Is this lack of
accountability acceptable to you, MVB?
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:24:37 +0200
From: "Ylva Eliasson" (ulfva telia.com)
Subject: Re: biodynamics in WWII
Hi again
I¥ve had a hard work reading over a hundred mails as I¥ve been away
for a few days. Very interesting, but a lot of (anthroposophic
arguing ) I¥ve heard before.
I will try to find a very simple question to ask and see if I can
possibly have an answer. Otherwise I¥ve decided that from now on I
will learn from what they do not tell!
This way of arguing is a typicall for all sects having something to
hide I think.
A funny thing is that sometimes anthros argue Steiner never said what
he unquestionably did say, for example about different races.
Sometimes they argue Steiner said what everybody else did at the
time. But reading this convince me that racisism is still taught in
waldorf schools in the year 2000. Percedol - is it all false?
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/report000710.html
For some reason I did not want to believe theese things happened today.
Ylva
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 4:15 AM
Subject: Re: biodynamics in WWII
) Hi Ylva,
)
) your experiences with trying to engage anthroposophists in reasoned dialogue
) sound very familiar to me, and I'm sure to many others here. Avoiding the
) question seems to count as some sort of virtue with Steiner's followers. The
) "forgery" charge is an excellent example; instead of challenging my
) interpretation of Steiner's lectures on 'national souls', some
) anthroposophists pretend that these lectures don't exist. Percedol's latest
) contribution confirms that this dismal procedure is not restricted to a
) handful of Scandinavian Steinerites. I think the point of this sort of thing
) is simply to distract attention from Steiner's writings, as well as from the
) compromised history of the anthroposophical movement. I'm sorry to say that
) I have encountered very few fans of Steiner who do not fall into this
) pattern. If there are any anthroposophists reading this list who would like
) to show a different face to the public, I encourage them to post here.
)
) Peter Staudenmaier
)
)
) )I¥m not sure if I misunderstand, but I can¥t find any relevance for the
) )anthroposophical accusations against you for forgery. All I have read
) )before at the "Vetenskap och Folkbildning" sight is, as far as I can see,
) )thourogly supported by a source list.
) )
) )But I have myself, in the answers from anthros to my "letters- to-editor"
) ),(is there a better word?) experienced their very special technic of
) )arguing. They first of all try not to answer the question, next is to point
) )out a very small thing to focus on to avoid what¥s the real point. Very
) )often they accuse their criticis for persecution - that is what they say
) )you are doing (when I referr to your articles, calling you disparaging "an
) )activist")!
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
) http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
) )
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:42:10 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: biodynamics in WWII
Hello Ylva,
Thanks for the link. You wrote:
For some reason I did not want to believe theese things happened today.
Many of us did not want to believe this. I found that when I was ignoring
these things I was pretending they did not exist. I was fooling myself and
my children were involved. Eventually, I woke up. I can make sense of it
now because I have dealt with it. Accountability. Here is another
interesting link:
http://www.akdh.ch/ps/ps_97Holland.html
As much as some anthroposophists would like critical views to be confined to
a small group in San Francisco, the reality is quite different. I know many
parents who left Waldorf schools very upset and now will have nothing to do
with any discussion (pro or con) having to do with Waldorf education. Those
who choose to speak up about these things are not the majority. I also know
parents who still believe it to be the best option for their children at
this time. While not every teacher preaches the Aryan gospel according to
Steiner, the undeniable issues of spiritual and racial hierarchy in
Waldorf/Anthroposophy cannot simply be ignored. Waldorf schools follow the
same path according to Steiner. He is quoted at every school I know of and
his views *are* the foundation of the curriculum. His photo can be found in
these schools. Try to bring up a discussion of Steiner and racism in the
school and see how far any discussion goes. Denial is denial - in a school
or on an Internet list. In North America or in Europe.
I think it has to do with fear and insecurity but that's another thread.
-Walden
Hi again
I¥ve had a hard work reading over a hundred mails as I¥ve been away for a
few days. Very interesting, but a lot of (anthroposophic arguing ) I¥ve
heard before.
I will try to find a very simple question to ask and see if I can possibly
have an answer. Otherwise I¥ve decided that from now on I will learn from
what they do not tell!
This way of arguing is a typicall for all sects having something to hide I
think.
A funny thing is that sometimes anthros argue Steiner never said what he
unquestionably did say, for example about different races. Sometimes they
argue Steiner said what everybody else did at the time. But reading this
convince me that racisism is still taught in waldorf schools in the year
2000. Percedol - is it all false?
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/report000710.html
For some reason I did not want to believe theese things happened today.
Ylva
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:44:34 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--Boundary_(ID_+H976M6ftq+CIUrJcUtKNg)
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Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
MVB wrote:
"This relentless exchange on the ad hominem warning on the forgery is
boring in the extreme. Is this and the "New person" exchanges the
extent of the current criticisms?"
Welcome. Interesting that this exchange has brought you into the
discussion. There are many subjects to discuss as a quick search
will show. Or, start your own less "boring" subject. But, since you
have chosen this subject and posed a question I will try to help with
an answer. I do not see it as a "relentless exchange." A claim has
been made on the list by a list member - Percedol. The claim has
been proven to be false. There are guidelines on most lists whereby
ad hominems are not allowed. Dan had no choice, IMO, but to remind
Percedol of this fact. BTW, many list members have been reminded of
this rule (myself included). This thread, far from being "boring" is
all about accountability and social responsibility. In this case,
Peter Staudenmaier's work has been called "forgery" and "lies" *on
this list.* As a response to Dan's question, Percedol points us to a
web site that is confusing and strange, at best (I am trying to be
polite). Again, the allegations happened on *this* list by a member
of this list. Clearly, the claim is false. The integrity of the
list is important for *all* members. I have enjoyed some of
Percedols posts in the past but in this case he simply made a big
mistake, IMO, which needs to be addressed. Is this lack of
accountability acceptable to you, MVB?
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 20:30:00 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Christ, Krishnamurti, and race
Hello Percedol,
in the midst of all your exasperated exclamation points, you asked a couple
of interesting questions. But before I get to those, could you perhaps
explain what you think "lying" is? You seem to think that inaccurate claims
are the same thing as lies. If that is in fact what you think (which is
somewhat difficult to believe, since even children have no trouble drawing
this obvious distinction), then you are mistaken. People who believe what
they are saying are not lying, even when their claims are untrue. Hence if
you think I have made inaccurate claims about Steiner or anything else, that
alone hardly means I am lying. To make a halfways plausible case that my
claims are lies, you would need to show that I do not believe my own claims,
that is, that I am deliberately misrepresenting my own thoughts. If you
cannot do so, it makes no sense whatsoever to introduce the notion of "lies"
here; all you're really saying is that my assertions are incorrect. I hope
that clears things up for you a bit. Anyway, on to your substantive claims:
)[he said that the Christ Being incarnated only ONCE in history and will
)never again! He said that to have two incarnations of the Christ would
)equivalent to have two fulcri in a balance, which makes no sense. He
)said that if anybody will say that someone is the reicarnated Christ,
)that would be false.]
It seems to me you are having difficulty following the argument here. Nobody
disputes that Steiner taught that Christ would not appear again in physical
form; I just said the exact same thing myself in the post you are responding
to. What is at issue here is whether he held this position consistently, and
whether his reaction to the Krishnamurti affair involved other
anthroposophical teachings besides this one. My answer to the first question
is no, and my answer to the second question is yes. Your answer to both
questions is the opposite of mine. Neither of us is lying. Get it?
)[This is Peter's comment, I have never heard of RS saying that he was
)not even a Christian!
Yes, that was obviously my comment. You may have noted that when I quote
other writers, I use quotation marks. The increasingly non-Christian
orientation of the Adyar wing of the Theosophical Society (the ones who
annointed Krishnamurti as the new World Teacher) was arguably the single
most important motivating factor behind Steiner's break with the rest of the
theosophical leadership. This difference of views on the role of
Christianity has been central to anthroposophy's development ever since the
split in 1912/1913. For one of dozens of examples, see the article "The
Anthroposophical World-Conception: An Introductory Outline" by E. C. Merry
in the London-based journal Anthroposophy, vol VII no 3 (1932), especially
pp. 293-295. I also recommend taking a look at the recent Steiner anthology
edited by Christopher Bamford under the title Spiritualism, Madame
Blavatsky, and Theosophy, which includes extensive selections from Steiner's
lectures during the period of the split. These lectures emphasize the
crucial role that disagreements over the relative status of Western and
Eastern esotericism played in this quarrel. I would be most interested to
learn how you came to your views on the reasons for Steiner's break with
organized Theosophy, Percedol.
)RS could not say this because he stated that the
)Christ will never incarnate again!
That is utterly illogical. Steiner plainly held both views: the general view
that Christ will never reincarnate again, and the more specific view that
the designation of Krishnamurti was a particular affront to anthroposophical
values. I just pointed out to you that there is no incompatibility
whatsoever between those two beliefs. If you think you have discerned some
such incompatibility, please identify it for the rest of us.
)The mentioning of being or not being
)Christian is ridiculous.
If you believe that, you have an awful lot to learn about your own
doctrine's history. Commitment to the superiority of Christian traditions
over Eastern traditions was the chief criterion for Steiner's faction in the
Theosophical divide, and was directly tied to anthroposophical race
doctrines: Europeans are an "ascending" race, while Asians (including
Indians like Krishnamurti) are a "declining" race. This motif continues
among anthroposophists today; among dozens of examples, see the 1995 book
Renewing Christianity: Rudolf Steiner's Ideas in Practice, by James Hindes.
Hindes says that Lucifer is constantly trying to tempt us into clinging to
obsolete religious forms, and specifies Indian religions as his sole example
(p. 39). All of this is perfectly in line with Steiner's own teachings,
which systematically conflate religious identity with ethnic identity, and
strictly align both religion and ethnicity with his peculiar theory of
spiritual progress. See, among dozens of examples, Steiner's lecture in
Stuttgart from December 27, 1919, where he declares that it is the task of
"the German people", and no other, to spread "spiritual life", which "the
Oriental" has lost; the Oriental must now receive spiritual guidance from
the Germans (GA 333 p. 141).
)BTW, Jesus was not a Christian, right?! But can
)we say that the Christ was Christian?]
According to Steiner, Christianity has been the spiritual vanguard, the
apogee of cosmic advancement, ever since the appearance of Christ two
thousand years ago. You don't really dispute this, do you?
)[This is another of PS's point of views, not RS's. Actually, Jesus was a
)Jew, and by following Peter's interpretation of A. this would be weird ,
)too.]
I think you have quite misunderstood my interpretation of anthroposophy.
While Steiner's teachings about Jews were definitely weird, the fact that
Jesus was Jewish presents no special problem for those teachings. Steiner
held that the whole point to the existence of Jews as a people, their entire
cosmic function, was to prepare the vehicle (namely the two Jesuses) for the
physical appearance of Christ. Once that mission was fulfilled, there was no
more reason for Jews to continue to exist. His teachnigs regarding Hindus
weren't all that different, come to think of it; they had also long since
played out their evolutionary function and were now merely leftovers of
former spiritual grandeur, an anachronism trapped in inevitable decline.
)Here is another "l**". How could RS encourage his closer circle (who
)were they , BTW, and where is the reference for this allegation?) to
)think of him as the new reappearance of Christ, when he stated that the
)Christ will never appear again in the flesh and not to believe if anyone
)said he was the Christ?
Your question assumes that Steiner's various pronouncements did not
contradict one another. That assumption is patently false. But I must concur
with Percedol to an extent; for years I too found it hard to believe the
notion that Steiner encouraged his followers to see him as a new appearnce
of Christ, and I have expressed this skepticism on a number of occasions on
this list. What changed my mind is a number of documents reproduced and
quoted in a lengthy book by historian Norbert Klatt, Theosophie und
Anthroposophie: Neue Aspekte zu ihrer Geschichte (Goettingen 1993). This
book is where the several references for my "allegation" can be found (which
isn't really an allegation is the first place; Steiner believed all sorts of
nonsense about himself, and this one isn't all that out of line with the
others).
Klatt reprints a 1911 letter from Hugo Vollrath to Wilhelm Hubbe-Schleiden,
both leading theosophists, in which Vollrath reports a remark by a
participant in Steiner's elite "Esoteric School" (a restricted group to
which Hubbe-Schleiden himself belonged in 1910) that Steiner "already
silently allows himself to be revered as the returned Christ" (quote at p.
212 of Klatt's book). Klatt finds this claim plausible (p. 103), and offers
several supporting details from other parts of Hubbe-Schleiden's
correspondence. He explores the rift around the Krishnamurti affair in some
depth, and offers a number of revealing perspectives on it from the point of
view of other German theosophists at the time. In light of this evidence,
and considering the other fanciful claims that Steiner advanced about
himself -- for example, he said that he had conversed with Blavatsky in the
spirit world, quite apart from his general pretensions to clairvoyance and
so forth -- I now think that the Christ rumors have substance.
)How can one deal with such an amount of "l***"?
At last, a sensible question from Percedol. The way to deal with what you
see as "lies" is to engage the arguments I have put forward, show how their
logic fails to support the conclusions I have drawn, and provide evidence to
the contrary. Alternatively, you can mount a new argument, based on your own
preferred body of evidence, and show how it leads to conclusions that differ
from mine. If you're not quite sure how that sort of thing works in
practice, I suggest going back and re-reading the exchanges you had with me
and Peter Zegers last year about Scaligero and Evola; Peter Z and I did
exactly what I just described, and it worked most effectively in countering
your untenable claims (or, to use your own overheated vocabulary, in
exposing your "lies"). How about giving it a try, Percedol?
)But according to the Indian Tradition (Veda) except for Dravidians ,
)Indians are Aryans, so why Krishnamurti wouldn't it fit racially.
As you know, I think your grasp of the Vedic literature is systematically
warped by your own occultist leanings, but I'm willing to leave that issue
aside for now. You must recognize, on the other hand, that the Vedic tales
of the "Aryans" are fundamentally different from Steiner's own version of
Aryanism; indeed this very issue was a point of contention in the 1912/1913
split with the other theosophists. That Krishnamurti did not "fit racially"
from an anthroposophical perspective comes through loud and clear in the
writings of Steiner and his followers from that period. I offered a quote in
my last post to illustrate this point: "Since we are the most advanced race,
we have the most advanced religion", wrote Gunther Wagner, an early
anthroposophist, in 1911 (quoted in Klatt, p. 102); the context for this
remark was the dispute with the India-oriented theosophical leadership who
backed Krishnamurti.
But Steiner's teachings along these lines can be traced considerably further
back; in a lecture to the "Esoteric School" in June 1907, for example,
Steiner sharply contrasted "the Eastern school" under Besant's leadership
from his own "western school" of esotericism (GA 266a, Aus den Inhalten der
esoterischen Schulen, p. 221), and then declared: "But this oriental form of
truth is worthless for us western peoples. It could only obstruct us and
hold us back from our goal. Here in the West are the peoples who shall
constitute the core of the future races." (ibid.) Another version of the
same session also sharply distinguishes the "Eastern" tendency from the
"Christian-esoteric" one, and concludes with the following formulation: "The
dying races of the East still need the Oriental school. The Western school
is for the races of the future." (ibid. p. 227) It is this insistence on
European racial stock and Christian spiritual forms as the key to cosmic
progress that helps account for Steiner's outraged reaction to the
Krishnamurti affair.
)And it was A. Besant who supported this idea of the krishnamurti as the
)new Master, in contrast with RS to provoke him in relationship with the
)consequencees of the Leadbeater case.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Steiner viewed Krishnamurti as a rival
for leadership within the theosophical world, and Besant's eventual support
for Krishnamurti did indeed provoke Steiner. I don't see how this would
shore up your version of the reasons behind Steiner's break with the other
theosophists. He had weathered a number of other disagreements with Besant
before that.
)PS:
)I recommend that
)you
)re-acquaint yourself with the facts at issue here and reconsider your
)opinion.
)
)P:
)What a courage!
It doesn't really take that much courage to reconsider your opinions on
historical issues. I do it on a daily basis, and I don't think I'm
especially brave. What is holding you back, Percedol?
)You may have clue at this point of this post!
I don't know about Walden, but I still don't have much of a clue about what
you're trying to say here. You just keep repeating that Steiner rejected the
possibility of any further physical reincarnations of Christ, a point I
didn't dispute; beyond that, pretty much all you've said is that you find my
reconstruction of Steiner's motivations during the Krishnamurti affair hard
to swallow. You haven't offered an explanation of why you reached this
conclusion, much less provided any evidence or reasoning for other listmates
to consider. Indeed it seems to me that much of what you've had to say on
this topic supports my explanation, not yours, especially when it is placed
within the context of the inter-theosophical debates of the time. Is there
some source you're relying on here, by Steiner or anyone else? Or do you
just really feel strongly that my version must be a lie, and yours the
truth? If there is in fact some text that backs up your version, would you
mind naming it? That might make it easier for all of us to tell truth from
"lies".
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1093
-- Topica Digest --
another case of abuse & whooping cough
By spectmore yahoo.com
Re: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: another case of abuse & whooping cough
By dlawrenz hinklelawfirm.com
Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
By dan dandugan.com
discipline in Waldorf schools
By dan dandugan.com
Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
By anjhale yahoo.com
RE: discipline in Waldorf schools
By spectmore yahoo.com
Re: another case of abuse & whooping cough
By snell gv.net
Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
By snell gv.net
Re: another case of neglect or karma?
By oscar001 earthlink.net
Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
By oscar001 earthlink.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:07:50 +0000
From: (spectmore yahoo.com)
Subject: another case of abuse & whooping cough
Another Waldorf school mishap:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=152199&category=STATE&BCCode=&newsdate=7/17/2003
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:37:48 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: on forgery]
I apologize for sending this post a third time. Apparently, the post did
not arrive at the site for some members (I was advised off list). It
*should* make it now. Being one for clear communication, I did not want MVB
to think I am not interested in the question he/she asked - in the event MVB
was not able to read the answer in my post. I look forward to a response.
My post:
MVB wrote:
) "This relentless exchange on the ad hominem warning on the forgery is
boring
) in the extreme. Is this and the "New person" exchanges the extent of the
) current criticisms?"
Welcome. Interesting that this exchange has brought you into the
discussion.
There are many subjects to discuss as a quick search will show. Or, start
your own less "boring" subject. But, since you have chosen this subject
and
posed a question I will try to help with an answer. I do not see it as a
"relentless exchange." A claim has been made on the list by a list
member -
Percedol. The claim has been proven to be false. There are guidelines on
most lists whereby ad hominems are not allowed. Dan had no choice, IMO,
but
to remind Percedol of this fact. BTW, many list members have been reminded
of
this rule (myself included). This thread, far from being "boring" is all
about accountability and social responsibility. In this case, Peter
Staudenmaier's work has been called "forgery" and "lies" *on this list.*
As a
response to Dan's question, Percedol points us to a web site that is
confusing
and strange, at best (I am trying to be polite). Again, the allegations
happened on *this* list by a member of this list. Clearly, the claim is
false. The integrity of the list is important for *all* members. I have
enjoyed some of Percedols posts in the past but in this case he simply made
a
big mistake, IMO, which needs to be addressed. Is this lack of
accountability
acceptable to you, MVB?
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 19:50:25 +0000
From: David (dlawrenz hinklelawfirm.com)
Subject: RE: another case of abuse & whooping cough
To me, what's most appalling about this story (other than the absurd and
cruel forms of punishment inflicted on these unfortuante
second-graders)is that it fits into a pattern that others have referred
to on this list, and that I have witnessed at the Waldorf School my
child used to attend. All too frequently it seems that a problem erupts
in a classroom (often with a young, inexperienced teacher who is not
being appropriately supervised)and the school refuses to acknowledge the
problem or simply sweeps the problem under the rug; parents gradually
realize that the problem is widespread (the article indicates that at
the Hawthorne Valley School several students had their mouths taped
shut, their hands tied, or their bodies strapped to a chair); parents
complain to the school about the teacher's inappropriate behavior; the
College of Teachers and school administration close ranks; the
"complaining" parents are black-listed as trouble-makers; the aggrieved
parents dis-enroll, and the School is happy to have them leave. The
School can then carry on as though nothing inappropriate ever happened,
without making any institutional reforms or putting safeguards in place
to prevent the problem from recurring. It's a sick way to run a school.
Unfortunately what happened at the Hawthorne Valley School (which is
probably accredited by AWSNA) is all too common, as many ex-Waldorf
parents could attest.
David
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:19:51 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
timesunion.com
Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
Ghent-- Parents remove students, question response over disciplinary tactics
By RICK KARLIN, Staff writer
First published: Thursday, July 17, 2003
Tucked away in a verdant corner of Columbia County, Hawthorne Valley
School appears to offer a kinder, gentler way of teaching.
Parents praise what they call its unique child-centered approach,
which is part New Age and part throwback to the way things were a
century ago. An organic farm across the road serves as a summer camp
for students in affiliated schools.
The first sign of trouble came last year when one couple learned
their daughter had been strapped into her chair with a leather belt.
Since then, more than a dozen parents have removed their elementary
school youngsters amid complaints about disciplinary tactics by one
of the teachers at Hawthorne Valley. Punishment included tying the
hands of students and taping their mouths shut if they misbehaved.
The teacher who doled it out, Claire McConnell, apologized, saying in
a June 24 letter, "I am sorry for my disciplinary misjudgment, very
sorry. ... I request your forgiveness."
Her colleagues wouldn't discuss the situation other than to say they
are moving to put the furor behind them.
"We're still working on it," said Patrice Maynard, a teacher and
mentor to McConnell. McConnell is the daughter of Sen. Mitch
McConnell, a Republican from Kentucky. She did not return phone
messages.
"She's a young teacher, a learning teacher," Maynard said. Maynard
referred further questions to a letter promising parents that "errors
in disciplinary action would not be repeated."
Corporal punishment is forbidden in public schools, but the "law is
silent" on the matter of private schools, said Bill Hirschen, a state
Education Department spokesman.
Parents who talked with the Times Union stressed that McConnell's
actions were out of character for Hawthorne Valley, one of the
best-known Waldorf Schools on the East Coast.
"We're not knocking Waldorf schools in general," said Bob Wohlfeld,
whose daughter was tied to her chair when she wouldn't settle down.
Wohlfeld and his wife, DeeAnn Veeder, removed the girl after she
finished second grade in June.
Waldorf Schools are based on the teachings of Rudolf Steiner, a late
19th-early 20th century Austrian thinker and writer. Steiner believed
children undergo distinct stages of emotional, physical and
intellectual development, and their education should reflect that.
Hawthorne Valley serves approximately 300 students in grades K-12 and
has a faculty and staff of about 30, according to the school's
website.
Youngsters at Waldorf Schools are encouraged to observe the natural
world. The curriculum emphasizes art and handwriting. Immersion in
reading skills doesn't begin until third grade, and students keep the
same teacher through eighth grade. Boys and girls practice dance-like
movements called eurythmy. In a marked departure from the mainstream,
computers are not part of the program for the younger students.
Hawthorne Valley shares a 400-acre spread with a summer camp and farm
based on Steiner's theory of biodynamics, a variation on organic
growing. During a visit on Wednesday, the school was closed for
summer vacation, but there was plenty of activity. Some kids had
returned from a swim. Business was brisk at the organic food store
where a bulletin board contained fliers for yurts and a nearby
Buddhist temple, typical of the numerous opportunities that exist for
spiritual seekers in the surrounding region.
Thanks to the locale and the school's distinctive educational
approach, Hawthorne Valley draws people from near and far.
Mary Anne Davis and her husband moved up from Brooklyn three years
ago to enroll their child. "It was right up our alley," said Davis, a
ceramic maker. "We really see eye to eye on a lot of issues."
Wohlfeld, who hosts the Wakin' Up With Wolf morning talk show on
WPIX-FM, moved with his wife and kids from Saratoga Springs to be
closer to the school, which he said makes the current situation all
the more frustrating.
Parents now say they may have been slow to acknowledge problems.
"That it was more than just a moment's bad judgment we did not want
to consider because we really wanted this to work," said Wohlfeld.
"We were a little dumbstruck," Wohlfeld said of their reaction when
they learned their daughter had been strapped down.
"I basically said, 'Don't ever do that again,' " Veeder recalled
telling McConnell. Davis said her son had his mouth Scotch taped shut
after another student jokingly suggested that remedy for the boy's
talkative ways.
The child was also strapped to a chair, becoming something of a
classroom hero after he strutted around the room with his chair
strapped to his back, the mother said.
Tracy Ferdinand said her daughter was so upset that she vomited when
she got home after seeing a classmate have his hands tied and forced
to sit alone during recess. One time, a child had to sit atop a steep
outdoor staircase at the two-story schoolhouse.
Parents who left Hawthorne Valley stressed they admire the school and
stand four-square behind the Waldorf approach.
"It's a wonderful mix if it works," said Ferdinand.
Mostly, though, they expressed frustration at what they viewed as a
closing of the ranks by staff members, many of whom have been there
for years.
"If you spoke up too much, you were considered a problem parent,"
said Veeder, who added that school officials, including their
daughter's teacher, raised no objections when they said they were
leaving the school.
The appeal of Waldorf Schools, along with an ongoing exodus from New
York City to the Hudson Valley, almost guarantees there will be
plenty of new students, at the school which charges about $8,000 a
year tuition.
The state Education Department has little authority over what goes on
at Hawthorne Valley.
The school is registered with the state, even though private schools
don't need to do so. Columbia County District Attorney Beth Cozzolino
said she's heard no complaints from local police agencies or others
about the school.
Hawthorne Valley did come under scrutiny in 1997 when the school was
shut down for several weeks after an outbreak of whooping cough and
county Health Department officials learned that about half the
students had not been vaccinated.
Some parents at the time said they objected to immunizations and
wanted their children to avoid them.
That episode didn't appear to spark the kind of internal strife that
the school is seeing regarding the discipline incidents.
Ultimately some parents say they are disappointed by the seeming lack
of accountability, similar to what soured them on public schools in
the first place.
"They need to wake up," Veeder said.
All Times Union materials copyright 1996-2003, Capital Newspapers
Division of The Hearst Corporation, Albany, N.Y.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:36:32 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Cc: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: discipline in Waldorf schools
Rick Karlin
The Times Union
Dear Rick, thanks for your article about the Hawthorn Valley School.
At PLANS, we've heard many stories like this. A parent posted on our
waldorf-critics discussion list today:
)To me, what's most appalling about this story (other than the absurd and
)cruel forms of punishment inflicted on these unfortuante
)second-graders)is that it fits into a pattern that others have referred
)to on this list, and that I have witnessed at the Waldorf School my
)child used to attend. All too frequently it seems that a problem erupts
)in a classroom (often with a young, inexperienced teacher who is not
)being appropriately supervised)and the school refuses to acknowledge the
)problem or simply sweeps the problem under the rug; parents gradually
)realize that the problem is widespread (the article indicates that at
)the Hawthorne Valley School several students had their mouths taped
)shut, their hands tied, or their bodies strapped to a chair); parents
)complain to the school about the teacher's inappropriate behavior; the
)College of Teachers and school administration close ranks; the
)"complaining" parents are black-listed as trouble-makers; the aggrieved
)parents dis-enroll, and the School is happy to have them leave. The
)School can then carry on as though nothing inappropriate ever happened,
)without making any institutional reforms or putting safeguards in place
)to prevent the problem from recurring. It's a sick way to run a school.
) Unfortunately what happened at the Hawthorne Valley School (which is
)probably accredited by AWSNA) is all too common, as many ex-Waldorf
)parents could attest.
)
)David (dlawrenz hinklelawfirm.com)
This is from our public list. We have a private list called
waldorf-survivors-only where we get hair-raising stories often, but
that is a private support group and the messages can't be quoted.
Discipline problems stem from two sources. The first is the teacher
selection and training process. Waldorf has been growing in the U.S.,
and there has been a shortage of teacher for many years. The Waldorf
teacher training colleges have low standards for who they admit, and
the schools have no standards for who they hire. Anyone who can mouth
the right Anthroposophical platitudes is in, whether they have any
talent for teaching or not. Waldorf teachers have training in
Steiner's mystical philosophy, but no training in classroom
management.
The other problem is a long tradition of laissez-faire on the
playground, letting children do what they want and work out conflicts
on their own. This leads to frequent injury accidents and "Lord of
the Flies" bullying while teachers look the other way.
For more information, please see our web site http://www.waldorfcritics.org
Sincerely yours, Dan Dugan
Secretary, PLANS, Inc.
--
_________________________________________________________________________
People for Legal and Nonsectarian Schools http://www.waldorfcritics.org
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:21:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jessica Hale (anjhale yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
At the Waldorf school I visited in southern
California, they were so proud of their discipline
techniques: sending a 12 year old to attend the
nursery school because the teacher considered his
clowning around babyish and so he belonged with the
little children, taking away first the chair then the
desk etc of a boy who was not behaving in a 1st grade
class (this story was told when a parent asked if
there are ever problems when the children move from
the kindergarten ot the significantly more structured
and rigid environment of the grades) until the boy was
left with nothing and had to come to class to an empty
spot and sit on the floor.
I was flabbergasted- all around me visiting parents
were laughing, and the teacher/tour guide recounted
these tales as if they were amusing little anecdotes.
In my opinion these sorts of "discipline" techniques
teach children nothing but that they are not respected
as human beings. Their behavior might change to avoid
further humiliation, but at what cost?
--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
) Rick Karlin
) The Times Union
)
) Dear Rick, thanks for your article about the
) Hawthorn Valley School.
) At PLANS, we've heard many stories like this. A
) parent posted on our
) waldorf-critics discussion list today:
)
) )To me, what's most appalling about this story
) (other than the absurd and
) )cruel forms of punishment inflicted on these
) unfortuante
) )second-graders)is that it fits into a pattern that
) others have referred
) )to on this list, and that I have witnessed at the
) Waldorf School my
) )child used to attend. All too frequently it seems
) that a problem erupts
) )in a classroom (often with a young, inexperienced
) teacher who is not
) )being appropriately supervised)and the school
) refuses to acknowledge the
) )problem or simply sweeps the problem under the rug;
) parents gradually
) )realize that the problem is widespread (the article
) indicates that at
) )the Hawthorne Valley School several students had
) their mouths taped
) )shut, their hands tied, or their bodies strapped to
) a chair); parents
) )complain to the school about the teacher's
) inappropriate behavior; the
) )College of Teachers and school administration close
) ranks; the
) )"complaining" parents are black-listed as
) trouble-makers; the aggrieved
) )parents dis-enroll, and the School is happy to have
) them leave. The
) )School can then carry on as though nothing
) inappropriate ever happened,
) )without making any institutional reforms or putting
) safeguards in place
) )to prevent the problem from recurring. It's a sick
) way to run a school.
) ) Unfortunately what happened at the Hawthorne
) Valley School (which is
) )probably accredited by AWSNA) is all too common, as
) many ex-Waldorf
) )parents could attest.
) )
) )David (dlawrenz hinklelawfirm.com)
)
) This is from our public list. We have a private list
) called
) waldorf-survivors-only where we get hair-raising
) stories often, but
) that is a private support group and the messages
) can't be quoted.
)
) Discipline problems stem from two sources. The first
) is the teacher
) selection and training process. Waldorf has been
) growing in the U.S.,
) and there has been a shortage of teacher for many
) years. The Waldorf
) teacher training colleges have low standards for who
) they admit, and
) the schools have no standards for who they hire.
) Anyone who can mouth
) the right Anthroposophical platitudes is in, whether
) they have any
) talent for teaching or not. Waldorf teachers have
) training in
) Steiner's mystical philosophy, but no training in
) classroom
) management.
)
) The other problem is a long tradition of
) laissez-faire on the
) playground, letting children do what they want and
) work out conflicts
) on their own. This leads to frequent injury
) accidents and "Lord of
) the Flies" bullying while teachers look the other
) way.
)
) For more information, please see our web site
) http://www.waldorfcritics.org
)
) Sincerely yours, Dan Dugan
) Secretary, PLANS, Inc.
) --
)
_________________________________________________________________________
) People for Legal and Nonsectarian Schools
) http://www.waldorfcritics.org
)
)
==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like
) here, no matter how basic. New threads are always
) welcome.
)
)
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 02:25:32 +0000
From: (spectmore yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: discipline in Waldorf schools
After 5 years of this kind of 'discipline*, my daughter, once ensconced
in her new non-Waldorf school proclaimed, " Mommy, I am smart and I am
responsible!!"
It chills me when she says these things but it terrifies me tha this is
happening WORLDWIDE.
Jeanne
Jessica Hale wrote:
)
) At the Waldorf school I visited in southern
) California, they were so proud of their discipline
) techniques: sending a 12 year old to attend the
) nursery school because the teacher considered his
) clowning around babyish and so he belonged with the
) little children, taking away first the chair then the
) desk etc of a boy who was not behaving in a 1st grade
) class (this story was told when a parent asked if
) there are ever problems when the children move from
) the kindergarten ot the significantly more structured
) and rigid environment of the grades) until the boy was
) left with nothing and had to come to class to an empty
) spot and sit on the floor.
)
) I was flabbergasted- all around me visiting parents
) were laughing, and the teacher/tour guide recounted
) these tales as if they were amusing little anecdotes.
)
) In my opinion these sorts of "discipline" techniques
) teach children nothing but that they are not respected
) as human beings. Their behavior might change to avoid
) further humiliation, but at what cost?
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:27:58 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: another case of abuse & whooping cough
On Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 12:50 PM, David wrote:
) to prevent the problem from recurring. It's a sick way to run a school.
) Unfortunately what happened at the Hawthorne Valley School (which is
) probably accredited by AWSNA) is all too common, as many ex-Waldorf
) parents could attest.
)
Debra:
Yes, it *is* sick, and far too common. I am beginning to feel like I
could write the stories, leaving just the names, date and school name
blank. . .
Another area of woe for Waldorf schools is their safety practices. A
child recently fell 10 feet out of a tree at her Waldorf Day Care. Kids
allowed to climb in trees without proper safety equipment & professional
instruction is irresponsible.
Considering the fact that people Arborists' can not obtain life
insurance because tree work - even with safety equipment - is the
*number one* most dangerous job in the USA. Yet many Waldorf programs
allow young children to free climb in trees without helmets, ropes or
proper ground surfaces. (sigh)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 23:02:22 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
Jessica wrote:
) At the Waldorf school I visited in southern
) California, they were so proud of their discipline
) techniques: sending a 12 year old to attend the
) nursery school because the teacher considered his
) clowning around babyish and so he belonged with the
) little children, taking away first the chair then the
) desk etc of a boy who was not behaving in a 1st grade
) class (this story was told when a parent asked if
) there are ever problems when the children move from
) the kindergarten ot the significantly more structured
) and rigid environment of the grades) until the boy was
) left with nothing and had to come to class to an empty
) spot and sit on the floor.
) I was flabbergasted- all around me visiting parents
) were laughing, and the teacher/tour guide recounted
) these tales as if they were amusing little anecdotes.
That scenario is not isolated. Now that we are out, my children tell
similar tales of belittlement and humiliation. They knew no different.
These incidents were just another day in school.... And I remember *all too
well* listening to Anthro teachers speak of these *amusing little
anecdotes.* Nothing was said to the parents to make us pull our kids from
the school but I should have used my critical thinking skills to see the tip
of the iceberg. I cringe at the memories. The children were spoken of in
terms of being cute or mischievous or manipulative or in their head...and of
course in terms of Steiner's temperaments. Group them into 4 bizarre
personality groups and call it classroom management. This is not about
individual human beings or freedom. I am not saying that every Waldorf
teacher was mean spirited, but "control" is a more apt term, IMO.
) In my opinion these sorts of "discipline" techniques
) teach children nothing but that they are not respected
) as human beings. Their behavior might change to avoid
) further humiliation, but at what cost?
Very good question. Many of us deal with that question every day. Of
course, according to the Waldorf method - children are not really human
beings. Yet. This is soul work. Incarnating souls. The child is being
prepared by the teacher - who, of course, understands karma much more than
the parents. Respect? Respect, IMO, can only happen when it goes back and
forth. When a teacher believes it to be his/her destiny to act as an
authority figure to a group of children, the question of mutual respect is a
non starter. Again, this is soul work.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:52:25 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
On Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 06:21 PM, Jessica Hale wrote:
) At the Waldorf school I visited in southern
) California, they were so proud of their discipline
) techniques: sending a 12 year old to attend the
) nursery school because the teacher considered his
) clowning around babyish and so he belonged with the
) little children,
Debra:
Yes, this shaming and humiliating discipline practice was also used at
our Waldorf school. Funny, kids who demonstrated critical thinking
skills too early, were told they must spend the day in Nursery class
because they were acting like babies. . . (Don't you love how they claim
Waldorf schools are all independent, like everyone does everything a
little different? Yeah, right. It's Waldorf Dot to Dot. Well, we've
connected the dots. and they all make the same picture!)
) taking away first the chair then the
) desk etc of a boy who was not behaving in a 1st grade
) class (this story was told when a parent asked if
) there are ever problems when the children move from
) the kindergarten ot the significantly more structured
) and rigid environment of the grades) until the boy was
) left with nothing and had to come to class to an empty
) spot and sit on the floor.
More shaming and humiliation. . .
)
) I was flabbergasted- all around me visiting parents
) were laughing, and the teacher/tour guide recounted
) these tales as if they were amusing little anecdotes.
The herded parents were laughing on que. Been there, done that.
)
) In my opinion these sorts of "discipline" techniques
) teach children nothing but that they are not respected
) as human beings. Their behavior might change to avoid
) further humiliation, but at what cost?
This generates anger. How the kid handles anger can look different.
Anger turned inward is depression. Some kids rebel. Some check out
emotionally. Some get sick. We've heard all the sad tales.
)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 23:47:45 -0700
From: "NJS" (oscar001 earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: another case of neglect or karma?
The tree climbing issue must be widespread? At our school in the Bay Area
our child was allowed to climb over 100 ft up a tree. I found her after
arriving to pick her up and the adult in charge thought she was behind a
building. Instead she was at the top of a very tall tree with another child
and the after school aide had no idea where they were.
Jeanine
----- Original Message -----
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: another case of abuse & whooping cough
)
) On Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 12:50 PM, David wrote:
) ) to prevent the problem from recurring. It's a sick way to run a school.
) ) Unfortunately what happened at the Hawthorne Valley School (which is
) ) probably accredited by AWSNA) is all too common, as many ex-Waldorf
) ) parents could attest.
) )
)
) Debra:
)
) Yes, it *is* sick, and far too common. I am beginning to feel like I
) could write the stories, leaving just the names, date and school name
) blank. . .
)
) Another area of woe for Waldorf schools is their safety practices. A
) child recently fell 10 feet out of a tree at her Waldorf Day Care. Kids
) allowed to climb in trees without proper safety equipment & professional
) instruction is irresponsible.
)
) Considering the fact that people Arborists' can not obtain life
) insurance because tree work - even with safety equipment - is the
) *number one* most dangerous job in the USA. Yet many Waldorf programs
) allow young children to free climb in trees without helmets, ropes or
) proper ground surfaces. (sigh)
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:00:57 -0700
From: "NJS" (oscar001 earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
Fascinating, kids at our school were regularly sent to Kindergarten as
punishment, with the explanation that it was "less stimulating." It even
occurred during a parent tour. Again, a facet of Waldorf schools that just
coincindentally manifests at several schools? One child at our school was
sent back to Kindergarten permanently, when I raised my concern about the
effect this could have on the rest of the class to two other parents, one of
which was a teacher at the school, the latter became very offended and
closed ranks, defending the practice and saying the decision was well
thought out.
Asking any questions seems to strike fear in the hearts of DOFs. What a
nightmare it all was.
It begs the question, if you truly believe in what you are doing simple
questions would not provoke such nastiness. Why are they so insecure?
Jeanine
----- Original Message -----
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
)
) On Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 06:21 PM, Jessica Hale wrote:
)
) ) At the Waldorf school I visited in southern
) ) California, they were so proud of their discipline
) ) techniques: sending a 12 year old to attend the
) ) nursery school because the teacher considered his
) ) clowning around babyish and so he belonged with the
) ) little children,
)
) Debra:
)
) Yes, this shaming and humiliating discipline practice was also used at
) our Waldorf school. Funny, kids who demonstrated critical thinking
) skills too early, were told they must spend the day in Nursery class
) because they were acting like babies. . . (Don't you love how they claim
) Waldorf schools are all independent, like everyone does everything a
) little different? Yeah, right. It's Waldorf Dot to Dot. Well, we've
) connected the dots. and they all make the same picture!)
)
)
) ) taking away first the chair then the
) ) desk etc of a boy who was not behaving in a 1st grade
) ) class (this story was told when a parent asked if
) ) there are ever problems when the children move from
) ) the kindergarten ot the significantly more structured
) ) and rigid environment of the grades) until the boy was
) ) left with nothing and had to come to class to an empty
) ) spot and sit on the floor.
)
) More shaming and humiliation. . .
)
) )
) ) I was flabbergasted- all around me visiting parents
) ) were laughing, and the teacher/tour guide recounted
) ) these tales as if they were amusing little anecdotes.
)
) The herded parents were laughing on que. Been there, done that.
)
) )
) ) In my opinion these sorts of "discipline" techniques
) ) teach children nothing but that they are not respected
) ) as human beings. Their behavior might change to avoid
) ) further humiliation, but at what cost?
)
)
) This generates anger. How the kid handles anger can look different.
) Anger turned inward is depression. Some kids rebel. Some check out
) emotionally. Some get sick. We've heard all the sad tales.
)
)
) )
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1094
-- Topica Digest --
Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
By momof2gals mindspring.com
RE: discipline in Waldorf schools
By spectmore yahoo.com
Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
By Redwoodforest msn.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:54:33 -0400
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
The same technique was used at my children's former WS. Older children would
be sent to spend the morning/the day/an hour with the nursery school
children. I actually did not discover this until our last year there, when I
was spending the morning in my younger girl's kindy class and a child of 11
or 12 showed up. The teacher put him to work sanding a piece of wood, which
is what the younger children were doing. I was puzzled, and took the kindy
assistant aside to ask her what the older child was doing with us. Always
loathe to speak up and say *anything* (at our school, the assistants were
mostly supposed to be silent servants of the teacher), the assistant told me
that the "visitor" was being punished for acting out in his class.
I always wondered whether our school was the only one who used shaming as a
behavior mod technique. Once I was on this and other lists, however, I
learned that was not the case. It turned out that children at other Waldorf
schools -- schools all over the world! -- were forced to stand in the corner
or to wear their shirts turned inside out all day as punishment for
"violating" the so-called dress code.
In my older daughter's first grade class, the teacher forced a 7 year old
boy to kneel in front of his desk for what seemed to my daughter quite a
long time because the boy had wiggled and fallen out of his chair. I
remember being horrified by this -- it seemed Medieval! -- particularly
becauase the floors were hard and the child was so young. Another time, the
same boy reportedly had to stand in front of the class (facing them), with
his "silver swords" (his arms) crossed in front of his chest, as a way of
teaching him to "contain" himself.
Lisa
) From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:52:25 -0700
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
)
)
) On Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 06:21 PM, Jessica Hale wrote:
)
)) At the Waldorf school I visited in southern
)) California, they were so proud of their discipline
)) techniques: sending a 12 year old to attend the
)) nursery school because the teacher considered his
)) clowning around babyish and so he belonged with the
)) little children,
)
) Debra:
)
) Yes, this shaming and humiliating discipline practice was also used at
) our Waldorf school. Funny, kids who demonstrated critical thinking
) skills too early, were told they must spend the day in Nursery class
) because they were acting like babies. . . (Don't you love how they claim
) Waldorf schools are all independent, like everyone does everything a
) little different? Yeah, right. It's Waldorf Dot to Dot. Well, we've
) connected the dots. and they all make the same picture!)
)
)
)) taking away first the chair then the
)) desk etc of a boy who was not behaving in a 1st grade
)) class (this story was told when a parent asked if
)) there are ever problems when the children move from
)) the kindergarten ot the significantly more structured
)) and rigid environment of the grades) until the boy was
)) left with nothing and had to come to class to an empty
)) spot and sit on the floor.
)
) More shaming and humiliation. . .
)
))
)) I was flabbergasted- all around me visiting parents
)) were laughing, and the teacher/tour guide recounted
)) these tales as if they were amusing little anecdotes.
)
) The herded parents were laughing on que. Been there, done that.
)
))
)) In my opinion these sorts of "discipline" techniques
)) teach children nothing but that they are not respected
)) as human beings. Their behavior might change to avoid
)) further humiliation, but at what cost?
)
)
) This generates anger. How the kid handles anger can look different.
) Anger turned inward is depression. Some kids rebel. Some check out
) emotionally. Some get sick. We've heard all the sad tales.
)
)
))
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:09:42 +0000
From: (spectmore yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: discipline in Waldorf schools
A child who entered first grade at our school was sent to the kindy
repeatedly for similar reasons until it was decided that he should stay
there and when we left he was an 11 year old 3rd grader.
Lisa D. Ercolano wrote:
)
) The same technique was used at my children's former WS. Older children
) would
) be sent to spend the morning/the day/an hour with the nursery school
) children. I actually did not discover this until our last year there,
) when I
) was spending the morning in my younger girl's kindy class and a child of
) 11
) or 12 showed up. The teacher put him to work sanding a piece of wood,
) which
) is what the younger children were doing. I was puzzled, and took the
) kindy
) assistant aside to ask her what the older child was doing with us.
) Always
) loathe to speak up and say *anything* (at our school, the assistants
) were
) mostly supposed to be silent servants of the teacher), the assistant
) told me
) that the "visitor" was being punished for acting out in his class.
)
) I always wondered whether our school was the only one who used shaming
) as a
) behavior mod technique. Once I was on this and other lists, however, I
) learned that was not the case. It turned out that children at other
) Waldorf
) schools -- schools all over the world! -- were forced to stand in the
) corner
) or to wear their shirts turned inside out all day as punishment for
) "violating" the so-called dress code.
)
) In my older daughter's first grade class, the teacher forced a 7 year
) old
) boy to kneel in front of his desk for what seemed to my daughter quite a
) long time because the boy had wiggled and fallen out of his chair. I
) remember being horrified by this -- it seemed Medieval! -- particularly
) becauase the floors were hard and the child was so young. Another time,
) the
) same boy reportedly had to stand in front of the class (facing them),
) with
) his "silver swords" (his arms) crossed in front of his chest, as a way
) of
) teaching him to "contain" himself.
)
) Lisa
)
)
) ) From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
) ) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) ) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:52:25 -0700
) ) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) ) Subject: Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
) )
) )
) ) On Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 06:21 PM, Jessica Hale wrote:
) )
) )) At the Waldorf school I visited in southern
) )) California, they were so proud of their discipline
) )) techniques: sending a 12 year old to attend the
) )) nursery school because the teacher considered his
) )) clowning around babyish and so he belonged with the
) )) little children,
) )
) ) Debra:
) )
) ) Yes, this shaming and humiliating discipline practice was also used at
) ) our Waldorf school. Funny, kids who demonstrated critical thinking
) ) skills too early, were told they must spend the day in Nursery class
) ) because they were acting like babies. . . (Don't you love how they claim
) ) Waldorf schools are all independent, like everyone does everything a
) ) little different? Yeah, right. It's Waldorf Dot to Dot. Well, we've
) ) connected the dots. and they all make the same picture!)
) )
) )
) )) taking away first the chair then the
) )) desk etc of a boy who was not behaving in a 1st grade
) )) class (this story was told when a parent asked if
) )) there are ever problems when the children move from
) )) the kindergarten ot the significantly more structured
) )) and rigid environment of the grades) until the boy was
) )) left with nothing and had to come to class to an empty
) )) spot and sit on the floor.
) )
) ) More shaming and humiliation. . .
) )
) ))
) )) I was flabbergasted- all around me visiting parents
) )) were laughing, and the teacher/tour guide recounted
) )) these tales as if they were amusing little anecdotes.
) )
) ) The herded parents were laughing on que. Been there, done that.
) )
) ))
) )) In my opinion these sorts of "discipline" techniques
) )) teach children nothing but that they are not respected
) )) as human beings. Their behavior might change to avoid
) )) further humiliation, but at what cost?
) )
) )
) ) This generates anger. How the kid handles anger can look different.
) ) Anger turned inward is depression. Some kids rebel. Some check out
) ) emotionally. Some get sick. We've heard all the sad tales.
) )
) )
) ))
) )
) ) ==^================================================================
) ) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
) ) basic. New
) ) threads are always welcome.
) )
) )
)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 01:56:10 -0700
From: "Lysa De Thomas" (Redwoodforest msn.com)
Subject: Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C34D98.ED221F30
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
How much training does a Waldorf teacher receive and what exactly do
they study? Everything I am reading about the gross mistreatment of
children in Waldorf Schools, although saddened, doesn't surprise me.
It is very old fashion and old world. When I was in the Caribbean
trying to start a few Montessori schools I saw this type of behavior
from the local teachers and parents. Their school system had been put
in place by the English in the 1800's and had never been revamped. So
children would be whipped, tied, humiliated and belittled. It
reminded me of Tom Brown's School Days. It got me so sick. They also
believed in a ghost/sprit/devil called a "jumbee". It was believed
that by tying a child down or taping his mouth shut, the jumbee
would become frustrated and encouraged to leave. With the things I
hear about what (some?) Waldorf teachers believe, I wonder if it is
part of their belief system just poor teacher training.
----- Original Message -----
From: spectmore yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 12:10 AM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: RE: discipline in Waldorf schools
A child who entered first grade at our school was sent to the kindy
repeatedly for similar reasons until it was decided that he should stay
there and when we left he was an 11 year old 3rd grader.
Lisa D. Ercolano wrote:
)
) The same technique was used at my children's former WS. Older children
) would
) be sent to spend the morning/the day/an hour with the nursery school
) children. I actually did not discover this until our last year there,
) when I
) was spending the morning in my younger girl's kindy class and a child of
) 11
) or 12 showed up. The teacher put him to work sanding a piece of wood,
) which
) is what the younger children were doing. I was puzzled, and took the
) kindy
) assistant aside to ask her what the older child was doing with us.
) Always
) loathe to speak up and say *anything* (at our school, the assistants
) were
) mostly supposed to be silent servants of the teacher), the assistant
) told me
) that the "visitor" was being punished for acting out in his class.
)
) I always wondered whether our school was the only one who used shaming
) as a
) behavior mod technique. Once I was on this and other lists, however, I
) learned that was not the case. It turned out that children at other
) Waldorf
) schools -- schools all over the world! -- were forced to stand in the
) corner
) or to wear their shirts turned inside out all day as punishment for
) "violating" the so-called dress code.
)
) In my older daughter's first grade class, the teacher forced a 7 year
) old
) boy to kneel in front of his desk for what seemed to my daughter quite a
) long time because the boy had wiggled and fallen out of his chair. I
) remember being horrified by this -- it seemed Medieval! -- particularly
) becauase the floors were hard and the child was so young. Another time,
) the
) same boy reportedly had to stand in front of the class (facing them),
) with
) his "silver swords" (his arms) crossed in front of his chest, as a way
) of
) teaching him to "contain" himself.
)
) Lisa
)
)
) ) From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
) ) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) ) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:52:25 -0700
) ) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) ) Subject: Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
) )
) )
) ) On Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 06:21 PM, Jessica Hale wrote:
) )
) )) At the Waldorf school I visited in southern
) )) California, they were so proud of their discipline
) )) techniques: sending a 12 year old to attend the
) )) nursery school because the teacher considered his
) )) clowning around babyish and so he belonged with the
) )) little children,
) )
) ) Debra:
) )
) ) Yes, this shaming and humiliating discipline practice was also used at
) ) our Waldorf school. Funny, kids who demonstrated critical thinking
) ) skills too early, were told they must spend the day in Nursery class
) ) because they were acting like babies. . . (Don't you love how they claim
) ) Waldorf schools are all independent, like everyone does everything a
) ) little different? Yeah, right. It's Waldorf Dot to Dot. Well, we've
) ) connected the dots. and they all make the same picture!)
) )
) )
) )) taking away first the chair then the
) )) desk etc of a boy who was not behaving in a 1st grade
) )) class (this story was told when a parent asked if
) )) there are ever problems when the children move from
) )) the kindergarten ot the significantly more structured
) )) and rigid environment of the grades) until the boy was
) )) left with nothing and had to come to class to an empty
) )) spot and sit on the floor.
) )
) ) More shaming and humiliation. . .
) )
) ))
) )) I was flabbergasted- all around me visiting parents
) )) were laughing, and the teacher/tour guide recounted
) )) these tales as if they were amusing little anecdotes.
) )
) ) The herded parents were laughing on que. Been there, done that.
) )
) ))
) )) In my opinion these sorts of "discipline" techniques
) )) teach children nothing but that they are not respected
) )) as human beings. Their behavior might change to avoid
) )) further humiliation, but at what cost?
) )
) )
) ) This generates anger. How the kid handles anger can look different.
) ) Anger turned inward is depression. Some kids rebel. Some check out
) ) emotionally. Some get sick. We've heard all the sad tales.
) )
) )
) ))
) )
) ) ==^================================================================
) ) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
) ) basic. New
) ) threads are always welcome.
) )
) )
)
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1095
-- Topica Digest --
Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
By momof2gals mindspring.com
RE: discipline in Waldorf schools
By spectmore yahoo.com
Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
By Redwoodforest msn.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:54:33 -0400
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
The same technique was used at my children's former WS. Older children would
be sent to spend the morning/the day/an hour with the nursery school
children. I actually did not discover this until our last year there, when I
was spending the morning in my younger girl's kindy class and a child of 11
or 12 showed up. The teacher put him to work sanding a piece of wood, which
is what the younger children were doing. I was puzzled, and took the kindy
assistant aside to ask her what the older child was doing with us. Always
loathe to speak up and say *anything* (at our school, the assistants were
mostly supposed to be silent servants of the teacher), the assistant told me
that the "visitor" was being punished for acting out in his class.
I always wondered whether our school was the only one who used shaming as a
behavior mod technique. Once I was on this and other lists, however, I
learned that was not the case. It turned out that children at other Waldorf
schools -- schools all over the world! -- were forced to stand in the corner
or to wear their shirts turned inside out all day as punishment for
"violating" the so-called dress code.
In my older daughter's first grade class, the teacher forced a 7 year old
boy to kneel in front of his desk for what seemed to my daughter quite a
long time because the boy had wiggled and fallen out of his chair. I
remember being horrified by this -- it seemed Medieval! -- particularly
becauase the floors were hard and the child was so young. Another time, the
same boy reportedly had to stand in front of the class (facing them), with
his "silver swords" (his arms) crossed in front of his chest, as a way of
teaching him to "contain" himself.
Lisa
) From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:52:25 -0700
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
)
)
) On Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 06:21 PM, Jessica Hale wrote:
)
)) At the Waldorf school I visited in southern
)) California, they were so proud of their discipline
)) techniques: sending a 12 year old to attend the
)) nursery school because the teacher considered his
)) clowning around babyish and so he belonged with the
)) little children,
)
) Debra:
)
) Yes, this shaming and humiliating discipline practice was also used at
) our Waldorf school. Funny, kids who demonstrated critical thinking
) skills too early, were told they must spend the day in Nursery class
) because they were acting like babies. . . (Don't you love how they claim
) Waldorf schools are all independent, like everyone does everything a
) little different? Yeah, right. It's Waldorf Dot to Dot. Well, we've
) connected the dots. and they all make the same picture!)
)
)
)) taking away first the chair then the
)) desk etc of a boy who was not behaving in a 1st grade
)) class (this story was told when a parent asked if
)) there are ever problems when the children move from
)) the kindergarten ot the significantly more structured
)) and rigid environment of the grades) until the boy was
)) left with nothing and had to come to class to an empty
)) spot and sit on the floor.
)
) More shaming and humiliation. . .
)
))
)) I was flabbergasted- all around me visiting parents
)) were laughing, and the teacher/tour guide recounted
)) these tales as if they were amusing little anecdotes.
)
) The herded parents were laughing on que. Been there, done that.
)
))
)) In my opinion these sorts of "discipline" techniques
)) teach children nothing but that they are not respected
)) as human beings. Their behavior might change to avoid
)) further humiliation, but at what cost?
)
)
) This generates anger. How the kid handles anger can look different.
) Anger turned inward is depression. Some kids rebel. Some check out
) emotionally. Some get sick. We've heard all the sad tales.
)
)
))
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:09:42 +0000
From: (spectmore yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: discipline in Waldorf schools
A child who entered first grade at our school was sent to the kindy
repeatedly for similar reasons until it was decided that he should stay
there and when we left he was an 11 year old 3rd grader.
Lisa D. Ercolano wrote:
)
) The same technique was used at my children's former WS. Older children
) would
) be sent to spend the morning/the day/an hour with the nursery school
) children. I actually did not discover this until our last year there,
) when I
) was spending the morning in my younger girl's kindy class and a child of
) 11
) or 12 showed up. The teacher put him to work sanding a piece of wood,
) which
) is what the younger children were doing. I was puzzled, and took the
) kindy
) assistant aside to ask her what the older child was doing with us.
) Always
) loathe to speak up and say *anything* (at our school, the assistants
) were
) mostly supposed to be silent servants of the teacher), the assistant
) told me
) that the "visitor" was being punished for acting out in his class.
)
) I always wondered whether our school was the only one who used shaming
) as a
) behavior mod technique. Once I was on this and other lists, however, I
) learned that was not the case. It turned out that children at other
) Waldorf
) schools -- schools all over the world! -- were forced to stand in the
) corner
) or to wear their shirts turned inside out all day as punishment for
) "violating" the so-called dress code.
)
) In my older daughter's first grade class, the teacher forced a 7 year
) old
) boy to kneel in front of his desk for what seemed to my daughter quite a
) long time because the boy had wiggled and fallen out of his chair. I
) remember being horrified by this -- it seemed Medieval! -- particularly
) becauase the floors were hard and the child was so young. Another time,
) the
) same boy reportedly had to stand in front of the class (facing them),
) with
) his "silver swords" (his arms) crossed in front of his chest, as a way
) of
) teaching him to "contain" himself.
)
) Lisa
)
)
) ) From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
) ) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) ) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:52:25 -0700
) ) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) ) Subject: Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
) )
) )
) ) On Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 06:21 PM, Jessica Hale wrote:
) )
) )) At the Waldorf school I visited in southern
) )) California, they were so proud of their discipline
) )) techniques: sending a 12 year old to attend the
) )) nursery school because the teacher considered his
) )) clowning around babyish and so he belonged with the
) )) little children,
) )
) ) Debra:
) )
) ) Yes, this shaming and humiliating discipline practice was also used at
) ) our Waldorf school. Funny, kids who demonstrated critical thinking
) ) skills too early, were told they must spend the day in Nursery class
) ) because they were acting like babies. . . (Don't you love how they claim
) ) Waldorf schools are all independent, like everyone does everything a
) ) little different? Yeah, right. It's Waldorf Dot to Dot. Well, we've
) ) connected the dots. and they all make the same picture!)
) )
) )
) )) taking away first the chair then the
) )) desk etc of a boy who was not behaving in a 1st grade
) )) class (this story was told when a parent asked if
) )) there are ever problems when the children move from
) )) the kindergarten ot the significantly more structured
) )) and rigid environment of the grades) until the boy was
) )) left with nothing and had to come to class to an empty
) )) spot and sit on the floor.
) )
) ) More shaming and humiliation. . .
) )
) ))
) )) I was flabbergasted- all around me visiting parents
) )) were laughing, and the teacher/tour guide recounted
) )) these tales as if they were amusing little anecdotes.
) )
) ) The herded parents were laughing on que. Been there, done that.
) )
) ))
) )) In my opinion these sorts of "discipline" techniques
) )) teach children nothing but that they are not respected
) )) as human beings. Their behavior might change to avoid
) )) further humiliation, but at what cost?
) )
) )
) ) This generates anger. How the kid handles anger can look different.
) ) Anger turned inward is depression. Some kids rebel. Some check out
) ) emotionally. Some get sick. We've heard all the sad tales.
) )
) )
) ))
) )
) ) ==^================================================================
) ) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
) ) basic. New
) ) threads are always welcome.
) )
) )
)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 01:56:10 -0700
From: "Lysa De Thomas" (Redwoodforest msn.com)
Subject: Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C34D98.ED221F30
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How much training does a Waldorf teacher receive and what exactly do
they study? Everything I am reading about the gross mistreatment of
children in Waldorf Schools, although saddened, doesn't surprise me.
It is very old fashion and old world. When I was in the Caribbean
trying to start a few Montessori schools I saw this type of behavior
from the local teachers and parents. Their school system had been put
in place by the English in the 1800's and had never been revamped. So
children would be whipped, tied, humiliated and belittled. It
reminded me of Tom Brown's School Days. It got me so sick. They also
believed in a ghost/sprit/devil called a "jumbee". It was believed
that by tying a child down or taping his mouth shut, the jumbee
would become frustrated and encouraged to leave. With the things I
hear about what (some?) Waldorf teachers believe, I wonder if it is
part of their belief system just poor teacher training.
----- Original Message -----
From: spectmore yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 12:10 AM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: RE: discipline in Waldorf schools
A child who entered first grade at our school was sent to the kindy
repeatedly for similar reasons until it was decided that he should stay
there and when we left he was an 11 year old 3rd grader.
Lisa D. Ercolano wrote:
)
) The same technique was used at my children's former WS. Older children
) would
) be sent to spend the morning/the day/an hour with the nursery school
) children. I actually did not discover this until our last year there,
) when I
) was spending the morning in my younger girl's kindy class and a child of
) 11
) or 12 showed up. The teacher put him to work sanding a piece of wood,
) which
) is what the younger children were doing. I was puzzled, and took the
) kindy
) assistant aside to ask her what the older child was doing with us.
) Always
) loathe to speak up and say *anything* (at our school, the assistants
) were
) mostly supposed to be silent servants of the teacher), the assistant
) told me
) that the "visitor" was being punished for acting out in his class.
)
) I always wondered whether our school was the only one who used shaming
) as a
) behavior mod technique. Once I was on this and other lists, however, I
) learned that was not the case. It turned out that children at other
) Waldorf
) schools -- schools all over the world! -- were forced to stand in the
) corner
) or to wear their shirts turned inside out all day as punishment for
) "violating" the so-called dress code.
)
) In my older daughter's first grade class, the teacher forced a 7 year
) old
) boy to kneel in front of his desk for what seemed to my daughter quite a
) long time because the boy had wiggled and fallen out of his chair. I
) remember being horrified by this -- it seemed Medieval! -- particularly
) becauase the floors were hard and the child was so young. Another time,
) the
) same boy reportedly had to stand in front of the class (facing them),
) with
) his "silver swords" (his arms) crossed in front of his chest, as a way
) of
) teaching him to "contain" himself.
)
) Lisa
)
)
) ) From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
) ) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) ) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:52:25 -0700
) ) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) ) Subject: Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
) )
) )
) ) On Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 06:21 PM, Jessica Hale wrote:
) )
) )) At the Waldorf school I visited in southern
) )) California, they were so proud of their discipline
) )) techniques: sending a 12 year old to attend the
) )) nursery school because the teacher considered his
) )) clowning around babyish and so he belonged with the
) )) little children,
) )
) ) Debra:
) )
) ) Yes, this shaming and humiliating discipline practice was also used at
) ) our Waldorf school. Funny, kids who demonstrated critical thinking
) ) skills too early, were told they must spend the day in Nursery class
) ) because they were acting like babies. . . (Don't you love how they claim
) ) Waldorf schools are all independent, like everyone does everything a
) ) little different? Yeah, right. It's Waldorf Dot to Dot. Well, we've
) ) connected the dots. and they all make the same picture!)
) )
) )
) )) taking away first the chair then the
) )) desk etc of a boy who was not behaving in a 1st grade
) )) class (this story was told when a parent asked if
) )) there are ever problems when the children move from
) )) the kindergarten ot the significantly more structured
) )) and rigid environment of the grades) until the boy was
) )) left with nothing and had to come to class to an empty
) )) spot and sit on the floor.
) )
) ) More shaming and humiliation. . .
) )
) ))
) )) I was flabbergasted- all around me visiting parents
) )) were laughing, and the teacher/tour guide recounted
) )) these tales as if they were amusing little anecdotes.
) )
) ) The herded parents were laughing on que. Been there, done that.
) )
) ))
) )) In my opinion these sorts of "discipline" techniques
) )) teach children nothing but that they are not respected
) )) as human beings. Their behavior might change to avoid
) )) further humiliation, but at what cost?
) )
) )
) ) This generates anger. How the kid handles anger can look different.
) ) Anger turned inward is depression. Some kids rebel. Some check out
) ) emotionally. Some get sick. We've heard all the sad tales.
) )
) )
) ))
) )
) ) ==^================================================================
) ) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
) ) basic. New
) ) threads are always welcome.
) )
) )
)
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1095
-- Topica Digest --
Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
By snell gv.net
RE: discipline in Waldorf schools
By spectmore yahoo.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:08:10 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
On Saturday, July 19, 2003, at 12:09 AM, spectmore yahoo.com wrote:
) A child who entered first grade at our school was sent to the kindy
) repeatedly for similar reasons until it was decided that he should stay
) there and when we left he was an 11 year old 3rd grader.
)
)
We made up a joke while at our Waldorf school:
Q: How can you tell if it's a Waldorf Kindergartener?
A: They're the ones with the pack of cigarettes rolled up in their
sleeve.
(evil grin)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 08:41:59 +0000
From: (spectmore yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: discipline in Waldorf schools
And Percy-doll responds how???
I am ever so curious- the 'Percies" respond to the Peters but this is
*Waldorf* critics and when these kind of abuse things arise, they' never
respond.....????
Aren't there Athro sites to argue on or can they actually bear up to
what this site was started for?
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1096
-- Topica Digest --
Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 23:27:56 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
I've got to share this from the Mothering board, topic "scandal at
local Waldorf school"
http://mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=1047bbd1d2229a97165afd2715aaa9f3&threadid=74737
)07-20-2003 09:00 PM
)mother of three
)New Member
)
)Registered: Jul 2003
)Location: connecticut
)Posts: 1
)
)I am a strong believer in Waldorf Education. My children attended
)four different Waldorf schools around the country and received
)nothing but the very best from teachers who worked out of integrity,
)dedication and the highest principles until they arrived at
)Hawthorne Valley School. It does not surprise me in the least that
)an incident such as this would occur since this was fairly standard
)when my children were there six years ago. Unfortunately most
)situations were swept under the carpet, including an incident where
)a teacher gave a child whiplash from a rather severe shaking. Most
)of the faculty is exceedingly insular and defensive and this I'm
)sure hasn't changed as the same group is still there teaching . As I
)learned over time, my daughter's class teacher was completely
)lacking in any sort of higher education, absolutely nothing, other
)than the requisite teacher training. Most schools, private and
)public, require at least some sort of commitment to higher ed such
)as a bachelors and more often a masters degree. Perhaps this is why
)this sort of situation can occur. They are simply uneducated
)educators at HVS. It is unfortunate that one school can ruin an
)education that is intended to be so strengthing to the human being
)that child will become.
)
)downloaded 7/20/03
Of course, the parent who wrote this is still supporting Waldorf...
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1097
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
By anjhale yahoo.com
Re: Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
By ulfva telia.com
Re: Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: another case of abuse & whooping cough
By nmfoss hotmail.com
RE: another case of abuse & whooping cough
By franksmith vdolores.com.ar
more on Steiner, Christ, Krishnamurti, and race
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: another case of abuse & whooping cough
By diana.winters verizon.net
Frank on "revisionist tactics"
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
By christopher.bennett cgey.com
RE: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: another case of abuse & whooping cough
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: teacher training (was discipline in Waldorf schools)
By nmfoss hotmail.com
The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
By oscar001 earthlink.net
Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: Frank on "revisionist tactics"]
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:09:06 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
As usual, I'm a little out of my element when it comes to discussing the
practical realities of Waldorf schools, but I have to say I'm skeptical
toward the notion that Hawthorne Valley School represents some sort of
anomaly within North American Waldorf circles. I've never been inside
Hawthorne Valley, but I've driven by it a number of times (the school is
almost literally right next door to the Rudolf Steiner Library of North
America, where I've been doing research this summer); it's an impressive
complex, the architecture strongly reminiscent of European anthroposophical
buildings. As the newspaper article noted, the school is one component of a
substantial anthroposophist community, with a large biodynamic farm across
the road and lots of other anthro projects and events going on in the
surrounding area. Last month I had a yummy biodynamic lunch at the little
food co-op that faces the school. That context suggests to me that "this one
school", far from being an anomaly, is an example of what the more committed
anthroposophists in North America would like to work toward, somewhat
similar in that regard to Sharon's stories about western Wisconsin. Visiting
the place gives you a powerful sense of what is so appealing to many people
about the lifestyle that Waldorf projects (and it doesn't hurt that
Hawthorne Valley School is in a very beautiful hilly area of upstate New
York); over the past six weeks, when I'd drive by the lovely pastoral
schoolyard after a day spent dredging up racial narratives from Steiner's
writings, I'd often reflect on the contrasts and contradictions that
anthroposophy in practice is built around.
Peter Staudenmaier
))I am a strong believer in Waldorf Education. My children attended four
))different Waldorf schools around the country and received nothing but the
))very best from teachers who worked out of integrity, dedication and the
))highest principles until they arrived at Hawthorne Valley School. It does
))not surprise me in the least that an incident such as this would occur
))since this was fairly standard when my children were there six years ago.
))Unfortunately most situations were swept under the carpet, including an
))incident where a teacher gave a child whiplash from a rather severe
))shaking. Most of the faculty is exceedingly insular and defensive and this
))I'm sure hasn't changed as the same group is still there teaching . As I
))learned over time, my daughter's class teacher was completely lacking in
))any sort of higher education, absolutely nothing, other than the requisite
))teacher training. Most schools, private and public, require at least some
))sort of commitment to higher ed such as a bachelors and more often a
))masters degree. Perhaps this is why this sort of situation can occur. They
))are simply uneducated educators at HVS. It is unfortunate that one school
))can ruin an education that is intended to be so strengthing to the human
))being that child will become
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:25:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jessica Hale (anjhale yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
What's up with this "becoming a human being" thing
anyway? It's just completely incomprehensible to me
that these people don't beleive the child is already a
human being- looking at their techniques and methods
in this light is very revealing. It's tragic really.
My best friend is sending her kids to the Waldorf
school I mentionaed in a previous post and honestly
I'm worried about them. I hope that everything will
turn out for the best, that perhaps their teachers
will be atypical and they will actually experience
that perfect, ideal childhood the Waldorfians sold
their parents on.
I don't even mention Waldorf to my best friend
anymore. She already knows exactly what I think of it,
and I've given her perhaps a ream or so worth of paper
what with all the articles about Waldorf I printed and
passed on to her while we were looking at schools
together. She just thinks everything's so beautiful
and natural there- she's decided that the respect,
reverence and wonder they claim to promote are worth
tolerating the kooky academics and bizarre eurocentric
curriculum. It's cute, ya know? They carry their lunch
to school in little baskets... Anyway, I love my
friend no matter what. I respect her right as a parent
to make different choices than am making for my son. I
just hope it turns out ok for the kids...
I wonder if the Waldorf people are really selling
parents a way to recreate the idyllic childhood they
wish they had, especially attachment parenting
oriented parents who seem to have more idealism and
optimism and anti-establishment sentiments (ie against
public schools and high stakes academic private
schools) already.
--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
)"It is unfortunate that one school can ruin an
)education that is intended to be so strengthing to
the human being that child will become."
)
)downloaded 7/20/03
Of course, the parent who wrote this is still
supporting Waldorf...
-Dan Dugan
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:56:57 +0200
From: "Ylva Eliasson" (ulfva telia.com)
Subject: Re: Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
.......over the past six weeks, when I'd drive by the lovely pastoral
schoolyard after a day spent dredging up racial narratives from
Steiner's
writings, I'd often reflect on the contrasts and contradictions that
anthroposophy in practice is built around.
)
) Peter Staudenmaier
)
Why are you reflecting on that. This is the way that the nazis were
marketing their theories, by beautiful things - buildings, gardens
and art. And then of course by celebrating things every now and then.
But of course you know this - but people in common don¥t I,m afraid.
Ylva Eliasson
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:30:34 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
This is not a good argument. There isn't anything wrong with things being
beautiful. One might equally argue that since the Nazis had two legs each
(well most of them) that having two legs was a suspect property.
See you, Peter
)From: Ylva Eliasson (ulfva telia.com)
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: Re: Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
)Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:56:57 +0200
)
)
)----- Original Message -----
)From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
)To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
)Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 6:09 PM
)Subject: Re: Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
)
)
).......over the past six weeks, when I'd drive by the lovely pastoral
)schoolyard after a day spent dredging up racial narratives from Steiner's
) writings, I'd often reflect on the contrasts and contradictions that
)anthroposophy in practice is built around.
) )
) ) Peter Staudenmaier
) )
)Why are you reflecting on that. This is the way that the nazis were
)marketing their theories, by beautiful things - buildings, gardens and art.
)And then of course by celebrating things every now and then. But of course
)you know this - but people in common don¥t I,m afraid.
)
)Ylva Eliasson
)
)==^================================================================
)You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
)New threads are always welcome.
)
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail is now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to
http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/signup.asp
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 18:40:53 -0400
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: another case of abuse & whooping cough
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:36:44 -0300
From: "Frank Thomas Smith" (franksmith vdolores.com.ar)
Subject: RE: another case of abuse & whooping cough
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Nicole: There are definitely aspects of this story which fit our
Waldorf experience quite closely. We were also dealing with a long
history of unacceptable behaviour on the part of a teacher - a
teacher who is still there, whereas many of the parents who raised
the initial concerns have now left. We were also labeled
troublemakers for asking for accountability, which was entirely
lacking. I have heard variants on this story so many times from so
many people in relation to Waldorf. They clearly have a case to
answer.
Dear Nicole,
This is a problem having to do with the collegial management of
Waldorf schools. (I have no experience in U.S. schools, but a lot in
Argentine and European ones, where the phenomenon also exists.) As
there is no principal, the burden of decision is left to the teachers
themselves. The teachers are supposed to be free to teach as best
they can out of their own initiative, and this usually works fine and
is certainly a strong motivating factor. What happens, however, when
you have an incompetent teacher? First of all, how do they know that
he's incompetent? A parent has a beef about him, let's say. To whom
does he go to complain? Good question, right? In many schools he has
to complain to the one he's complaining about, which is ok if it
works. If not, there's a problem, of accountability as you call it.
He might go to a Board member, who might refer him to the Teachers'
Group, which may or may not have appointed one of more of their
number to handle complaints and queries. And if the problem is taken
up in the regular teachers' meeting, it's a very delicate situation
when one of their own is being criticized, and is present. In such
circumstances it's a very easy for a "them vs. us" attitude to
develop. The basic problem is, I think, the lack of knowledge of how
groups function - the organization of same, decision making, etc. I
teach a course in the Waldorf Teacher Training Seminar in Buenos
Aires in "Social Ecology" (for want of a better name) and concentrate
as much as possible on this aspect of group dynamics and
organization. It works very well in the classroom; in practice,
however, these are young teachers who then go to work in schools
where the old methods - or lack of them - are still prevalent. I
really think that the schools should try to concentrate more on this
problem, because it's solvable, but requires a learning process.
Frank
P.S. Hey, critics, I'm back, which makes y'all happy, right? I'm like
Mohamed Ali, a butterfly to poke and jab and fly off into the setting
sun.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:17:46 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: more on Steiner, Christ, Krishnamurti, and race
About Percedol's recent silence, spectmore yahoo.com observed:
)I am ever so curious- the 'Percies" respond to the Peters but this is
)*Waldorf* critics and when these kind of abuse things arise, they' never
)respond.....????
)Aren't there Athro sites to argue on or can they actually bear up to
)what this site was started for?
I think it's also interesting that Percedol dropped the Krishnamurti thread
as soon as it turned from "lies" to documentary evidence and Steiner's
published texts. I'm a little handicapped in this thread, since I'm away
from my Steiner books and files for the summer, but just the material that I
gathered last month in New York contains any number of relevant references.
While Percedol collects his thoughts on the matter, I'll offer a few more
selections from Steiner that might help illuminate the reasons for his
truculent response to the Theosophical Society's designation of this "Hindu
lad" as the next World Teacher. But first, another telling passage from one
of Steiner's colleagues, a leader in the German branch of the Theosophical
Society who did not follow Steiner in the split over Krishnamurti.
In July 1911, Steiner's fellow theosophist Wilhelm Hubbe-Schleiden, who had
been a student in Steiner's special "Esoteric School" the previous year,
wrote a letter to Annie Besant explaining the background to Steiner's
outrage at Besant's endorsement of Krishnamurti. According to
Hubbe-Schleiden's account, "He [Steiner] teaches that the Sun-logos-Christ
will re-manifest himself only in the etheric world after 1930 [...] this
Sun-logos-Christ-Spirit will then use his (Steiner's) etheric and astral
bodies for his re-manifestation on the etheric plane [...] If the prophecy
will be fulfilled, then our Dr. Steiner would become an avatar of the Sun
Logos; and if so, he can do a great deal of good to a great number of
people." (Hubbe-Schleiden to Besant, July 19, 1911; quoted in Norbert Klatt,
Theosophie und Anthroposophie, p. 103) This is another indication that
Steiner's rivalry with the young Krishnamurti involved his own ambitions to
play the role of vehicle for the re-appearance of Christ.
Steiner's own works from the same period offer many further insights into
his attitude toward this question, and particularly toward the basic
contrast between Eastern and Western forms of "spiritual science", which for
Steiner was associated with the racial hierarchy that is central to
anthroposophy. In his book Christus und die menschliche Seele [Christ and
the Human Soul, GA 155], Steiner discusses the role of "racial development"
at length, comparing the cosmically necessary differentiation of humankind
into racial groups to the differentiation of individual peoples and nations
into different castes and classes. The book's second chapter, Steiner's
lecture in Copenhagen from May 29 1912 (in the midst of the heated dispute
over Krishnamurti), includes a three-page disquisition on the relationship
between "race development" and "soul development", which I plan to translate
at some point. The general thrust of the passage is that more advanced souls
incarnate in what Steiner here calls "higher races", while less developed
souls incarnate in what he here calls "subordinate races". This process of
continual racial-spiritual progress eventually results in "the dying out of
the worse elements in the population" (p. 93).
Steiner then segues into a comparison of Indian and European spiritual
traditions, in the course of which he distinguishes between two schools of
esotericism: one tied to Indian teachings, and one which included these
teachings but also assimilated the Christ impulse. He emphasizes the
differences in the "physical incarnation" between these two streams, and
stresses that the Christian adepts were both physically and morally
advanced; the 'Christ impulse' played the central role in differentiating
the European from the Indian orientations (p. 98).
A few weeks earlier, in a lecture in Berlin on March 19, 1912, Steiner made
a similar point in the context of the increasingly tense intra-theosophical
conflict around Krishnamurti. Declaring that "the post-Atlantic culture has
its special task" to "march forward" on the path of cosmic development, he
warns against allowing "European humankind" to be taken in by the allure of
Asian spiritual traditions (GA 133 p. 37). Without naming names, Steiner
continues: "Only a certain circumstance would be necessary for this [the
western revival of Asian traditions] to take place, for it to overwhelm
European spiritual culture, so that European spiritual culture would forget
its true mission, its authentic significance and its task." (p. 38)
While re-assuring his audience that he did not dismiss "Indian spirituality"
out of hand, Steiner strongly emphasized that each historical era has its
own specific mission, and that trying to preserve bygone traditions from
previous eras could only lead to regression. Indian spirituality in
particular represents a remnant of Atlantean times. "People need to
understand that a new mission from a new time has arrived, and that we must
stand firm on the foundation that Christianity has built." (p. 39) But other
theosophists, says Steiner, have been taken in by "sensationalism" and "what
they think ancient India and even contemporary India has to offer
spiritually." These other theosophists are foolish enough to declare that
"truth does not lie with the deeply comprehended Christ principle". This
other variety of theosophy "does not see its task as drawing the source of
spiritual life from Christian mysticism and Christian love, but rather
copying the wisdom of ancient India, and badly at that" (p. 40).
Steiner's insistence on the superiority of Christian forms is borne out by a
booklet published in English in 1913 (the year that the split over
Krishnamurti became final) under the title Theosophy and Christianity.
Written by Steiner's student Max Seiling, the book includes a substantial
Afterword by Steiner himself which fully endorses Seiling's argument. The
purpose of this little text is to distance Steiner's version of theosophy
from "Indian thought" (p. 5) and place it within the philosophical
traditions of the West, in order to appeal to readers who took the
preeminence of Christianity over Eastern philosophies and religions for
granted. Interestingly, Seiling includes a very positive reference to the
work of the proto-fascist crackpot Guido List, one of the two leading lights
of Ariosophy, a viciously racist Austrian offshoot of theosophy. Seiling,
who was for years both a dedicated anthroposophist and an active
ariosophist, praises List's book Die Religion der Ario-Germanen, and calls
List a "highly esteemed investigator of Aryanism" (p. 31). It is clear that
Steiner's followers, at least, had no trouble drawing the obvious
conclusions from Steiner's doctrines about Aryans, Germans, and
Christianity.
I'd like to point out again that this perspective did not simply arise out
of Steiner's consternation during the Krishnamurti affair, but was a crucial
part of his anthroposophical doctrines from the very beginning. In 1903, at
the outset of his term as the leader of German theosophy, Steiner declared
that "the best hopes for the future of Theosophy lie in Germany" (Steiner,
Luzifer-Gnosis, GA 34, p. 533). In a 1904 article in his theosophical
journal Luzifer-Gnosis, Steiner proclaimed in unambiguous terms that
esoteric spiritual teachings "express themselves in the concepts of their
race", using "the teachings of the East" as his example. "And those who can
come to this basic wisdom through true, spiritual Christianity," Steiner
concluded, "have no need for Hinduism or Buddhism." (ibid. p. 370) In this
early tract, Steiner went even further: "It is even potentially
un-theosophical to teach the Hindu or Buddhist forms in Europe." (p. 371)
The racially marked character of this Eurocentric myopia comes through in a
number of other early statements. In one of his closed meetings with the
privileged members of his 'Esoteric School' in February 1906, Steiner tied
the root-race doctrine directly to the Christ impulse, and predicted a Day
of Judgement in which one racial group would be consigned to "the realm of
evil" while another racial group would bring forth new spiritual wonders. He
further characterized the good race as "wheat" and the evil race as "chaff",
indicating just how he envisioned the separation of these two opposed racial
elements (Steiner, Aus den Inhalten der esoterischen Stunden, GA 266a, p.
124).
The same theme re-appears in Steiner's 1907 lectures in Munich on John's
Apocalypse (Aus der Bilderschrift der Apokalypse des Johannes). Here Steiner
reminds his theosophical audience that "we are members of the fifth sub-race
of the fifth root-race" (that is, we are not just Aryans, but Germans), and
that the coming transition to the sixth root-race will depend on recognizing
Christ as the unifying spiritual figure for all of humankind (p. 38). A few
pages later he insists that acceptance of Christ is the key to racial
progress, and that the point of "race evolution" is to achieve "bodies with
a greater degree of perfection"; while those who reject Christ will stagnate
racially: they "must be born again and again in the same race, because
[they] rebuffed the directives of the redeemer." (p. 47)
Nor did the intersecting themes of racial and religious superiority subside
once the Krishnamurti affair had passed and Steiner's anthroposophical
followers had disentangled themselves organizationally from the Theosophical
Society. In a lecture on "the deeper impulses of history" held in Berlin on
March 28, 1916, Steiner reviewed his movement's debt to Blavatsky and
classical theosophy, while sharply criticizing mainstream Theosophy's slide
into the "Indian muddle" (Steiner, Gegenwaertiges und Vergangenes im
Menschengeiste, GA 167, p. 74). According to Steiner, speaking in the middle
of World War I, the British leadership of mainstream theosophy tried to
marginalize German occultism by "completely ignoring Central Europe" and
"disregarding Central Europe" (p. 74).
Steiner's enduring bitterness over the Krishnamurti affair comes through a
few pages later when he describes Besant's "intention to appoint this
Alcyone [i.e. Krishnamurti] the vehicle of Christ." (p. 79) With
unmistakable resentment and anger, Steiner reports that he had made clear to
Besant already in 1909 "that in occult movements I will never play any other
role than in connection with German culture -- solely with German culture,
within Central Europe." (p. 79) Steiner meant this remark as a defense
against theosophical allegations about his own German nationalist
orientation and his ambitions to become head of the Theosophical Society,
but in context his own words indict him.
Well after the war, in a lecture in Vienna on June 9, 1922, Steiner once
again drew a sharp distinction between "European humankind" and "the
fundamental character of Oriental spiritual life" (GA 83 p. 227). The
decisive difference between the two has to do with the "I", according to
anthroposophy the highest part of the human individual. Asians, Steiner
explains, have "a suppressed feeling for the I"; their "personality" and
"human individuality" is underdeveloped (p. 227). In contrast, "the peoples
of northern and central Europe" have "a naturally strong feeling for the I",
and because of this they have "a great historical mission" to bring this
fully developed I to "the Oriental person" (p. 235).
Then there's Steiner's lecture in Stuttgart on June 10, 1920, entitled "The
peoples of the earth in the light of spiritual science", published shortly
after Steiner's death in the anthroposophical journal Die Drei, vol 5 no 9
(December 1925). Here Steiner has quite a bit to say about "the Oriental
peoples" and their spiritual practices, which pale in comparison to "the
exceptional flowering" of spiritual culture brought forth by "the German
nation" (p. 651). According to Steiner, the Germans already possess, as part
of their "ordinary characteristics", those spiritual achievements that "the
Indian strives toward as his ideal of the superhuman." (p. 652; Steiner's
term is "Uebermensch") Hence "the European person", with his "natural
endowment", stands "a stage higher" than "the Oriental" (p. 652).
The same theme is taken up in Steiner's lecture in Stuttgart on December 27,
1919. Here Steiner highlights "how different everything is that springs from
the soul, as worldview and life image, on the one hand in the world of the
Orient, and on the other hand in the world of the West." While the two are
intertwined, Steiner underscores the "special new element" that the West,
and not the East, has brought forth in the form of Christianity, "that most
powerful impulse in all earthly development" (Steiner, Gedankenfreiheit und
soziale Kraefte, GA 333, p. 125). Steiner goes on to declare that "the soul
life of the Orient" is simply not part of "normal human life", flatly
equating "normal human life" with "our own, in the West"; instead the
spirituality of the East is "decadent" and "certainly in decline" (p. 126).
A few pages later, recalling the split with the rest of the Theosophical
Society, Steiner notes with some displeasure that "our anthroposophically
oriented spiritual science" is sometimes confused with "that which calls
itself Theosophy in English speaking regions." (p. 129) He faults the
English-speaking Theosophists for looking to India for "ancient oriental
wisdom", for "borrowing completely from the oriental Indians", whose springs
of wisdom have long since run dry (p. 130). This, says Steiner,was the cause
of the falling out with the Theosophical leadership. "That we did not mimic
this is the reason why these Theosophists denounced us so vociferously." (p.
130) But the problem isn't merely lack of originality and creativity; for
Steiner, "the Oriental thinker" is not nearly at the same level of
development as "European spiritual culture" (p. 132); it is only in the West
that the seeds of the future are to be found.
Whereas "that which is in decline over there in the Orient" is "an element
that is appropriate to the contemporary Oriental", it is wholly
inappropriate for contemporary Europeans (p. 133). "And it is an example of
decadence in the West, of abandonment of all the good spirits of European
humankind, that there are many people today who seek to shore up their
European spiritual life by absorbing the Oriental essence." (p. 137) Steiner
concludes this lecture by ascribing "the most pure, the most filtered form
of thinking" to "the Germans", who are indeed the carriers of "the future of
humanity" (p. 142); but this future can only be realized by "our own
spiritual striving, not by borrowing from the Oriental" (p. 141).
This lengthy parade of prejudices about Indian spiritual traditions,
combined with an overweening presumption of European superiority, should
help explain anthroposophy's immediate origins in the dispute concerning
Krishnamurti and the proper direction of the worldwide theosophical
movement. These teachings, which Steiner repeated many times and in many
places, show that he could not conceive of a new "World Teacher" who did not
emerge from the German people, heralds of the new age; in Steiner's eyes,
Krishnamurti was racially, culturally, and spiritually ineligible for the
role assigned to him by Besant et al. This is why Steiner's followers at the
time were so convinced that "since we are the most advanced race, we have
the most advanced religion." When it came to discerning the appropriate form
for advancing the Christ Impulse, anthroposophical race doctrine was a
decisive factor.
Peter Staudenmaier
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:38:16 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
Peter F. and Ylva discussed Ylva's claim:
)This is the way that the nazis were marketing their theories, by beautiful
)things - buildings, gardens and art. And then of course by celebrating
)things every now and then. But of course you know this - but people in
)common don¥t I,m afraid.
I think Ylva's got a good point. While historians pay a fair bit of
attention to the Nazis' emphasis on things like beauty, many people
understandably continue to think of Nazism solely in terms of destruction
and nihilism. This issue has come up before on the list, when
anthroposophists would yelp at some comparison between their own movement
and the Nazis or their precursors; the anthros would angrily insist that
Steiner and his followers were only seeking to spread beauty, health, and
spiritual renewal, completely oblivious to the fact that many Nazis saw
themselves as seeking the very same things. In fact, I seem to recall Frank
Thomas Smith -- welcome back, Frank -- falling for more or less the same
mistake just before he harrumphed off the list last time around. I see this
as a genuine problem in historical consciousness about fascism, and not one
that is restricted to admirers of Rudolf Steiner. Peter F's reminder that a
concern for beauty scarcely makes one a Nazi is important, but I'd say it's
just as important to keep in mind that a concern for beauty, or for
spiritual regeneration, or for educational reform, etc etc, is no bulwark
against Nazism. If the first generation of anthroposophists had had a better
grasp of this, perhaps their record during the Third Reich would not have
looked so dubious.
Peter S.
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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:00:34 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: Re: discipline in Waldorf schools
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The most sickening things about this tale are 1) there is no sign the
teacher will be fired and 2) the parents still "admire" the school.
The excuse that she was young and inexperienced adds insult to injury.
Tying children to chairs is not a problem of "inexperience," it's a sick
and dangerous person. You can't tie a child to a chair in a momentary
lapse of control - this is a plan thought out in advance by a sadist.
This teacher should never, under any circumstances, work with children
again, and the mentor should find him/herself blacklisted. Instead, the
school is obviously scrambling to protect them - not the children.
Did you notice that no one from the school is quoted expressing concern
for the children? The concern expressed is for the teacher, who is
"young" and "learning." So are the children young and learning - and
what a lesson they have just learned. And yet the concern for the
teacher is not directed towards getting her the help she needs either -
she is permitted to continue in her denial. Do you suppose she really
believes what she did was a "disciplinary misjudgment"? (Maybe the
mentor never mentioned it isn't right to tie the children up? She can
"learn" not to tie the children up?)
The parents should press charges. But they "admire the school." They are
still in denial. The mother whose child was strapped to the chair said
to the teacher, "Don't ever do that again," and seems to have felt that
was a strong statement. ?!!? Is that what most people would say to a
person who had just committed a terrifying assault against us, or
against a loved one? "Don't do that again"? An adult who had been
assaulted in this way might need therapy, might have flashbacks to the
assault for the rest of their life - the effects on a child are even
greater. Yet if I understand correctly, they let her finish the school
year, spending quality time with her assailant every day.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:11:03 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: another case of abuse & whooping cough
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Frank wrote:
"The basic problem is, I think, the lack of knowledge of how groups
function - the organization of same, decision making, etc."
This is a whitewash. Yada yada about how groups function, "social
ecology." You think this is a problem with "decision making"? Give me a
break. We are talking about a teacher who TIED CHILDREN UP. The problem
in that school is not that the teachers need a workshop in "how groups
work." Please, I'm going to throw up. This sounds like a friggin'
advertisement for your own course. Have you no shame?
"I teach a course in the Waldorf Teacher Training Seminar in Buenos
Aires in "Social Ecology" (for want of a better name) and concentrate as
much as possible on this aspect of group dynamics and organization. It
works very well in the classroom; in practice, however, these are young
teachers who then go to work in schools where the old methods - or lack
of them - are still prevalent."
Please elaborate, Frank. What are the "old methods"? What are these
teachers learning about discipline?
"I really think that the schools should try to concentrate more on this
problem, because it's solvable, but requires a learning process."
I think they should concentrate on hiring people without gross
psychological problems, and then they should bother to train them in how
to manage the classroom, with pointed reminders that children are not to
be hit, tied down, screamed at, have body parts restricted or pain
applied, tape should be applied nowhere on a child's body, etc. Start
there. When they've graduated from these "how to be a decent human
being" workshops, start on some academic content. Got a long way to go
there. Work on the basics, sending these people off to "social ecology"
workshops is a sorry, sick joke.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 21:18:33 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
Hello Frank,
sorry to pick on you as soon as you announced your renewed presence on the
list, but since I'm in historical revisionist mode this evening, I couldn't
resist. Your last post here, from September 2002, ended with the following
remarkable paragraph:
"The attacks against Rudolf Steiner (racist, nazi, cult figure, etc) are,
imo, no more that mean-spirited revisionist tactics. (Like: Oh, Jefferson
had slaves, therefore he was a hypocrite with his "all men are created
equal" - Oh, Plato and Socrates were pedophiles, so don't believe their
philosophy - Oh, Goethe was a quack scientist because modern science doesn't
agree with him. -Oh, Shakespeare couldn't possibly have written all that
stuff, he didn't even finish high school. Oh, Jesus probably didn't even
exist, because there's no real evidence, etc. (I don't mean that WC talks
about those people, just indicating examples of revisionism.) As far as
Steiner is concerned, it amounts to quotations out of context of things he
may or may not have said (often lecture transcripts, especially the early
ones, are of dubious accuracy) - or misinterpretations (often deliberate) of
same. I personally abhor racism (though I once lived for 4 years with an
American black woman-in Germany-and she told me that all white people are
prejudiced, it's all a matter of degree, and the liberals are the worst
because they don't realize it), and I assure you that I would recognize it
if I really found it in anthroposophy. Which doesn't mean that there are no
anthroposophists who are racists - you get all kinds. Did you know, btw,
that an attempt was made on Steiner's life in Germany in 1922 by the
proto-nazis, and that Hitler, once in power, convinced that Steiner must
have been a Jew, ordered the Gestapo to investigate his genealogy? (this is
documented) and that both the Anthroposophical Society and the Waldorf
schools were forbidden in Nazi Germany? Just a minor detail.
See you guys next time I feel constipated.
in vino veritas,
Frank"
I replied point-by-point a day later (and sent you a copy of my post
privately), but heard nothing back from you. To refresh your memory, you can
find my post here:
http://www.topica.com/lists/waldorf-critics/read/message.html?mid=1710979604
In brief, I'd be most interested to learn why you think revising inaccurate
accounts of history is a bad thing (if that is in fact what you think),
which examples of "out of context" Steiner quotes you have encountered on
this list, why you continue to translate and publish Steiner's early lecture
transcripts if you consider them unreliable, and where you picked up the
several myths about anthroposophy and Nazism that you repeated above, as
well as where you believe these things are "documented". Unless you take
pride in stinging like a butterfly and floating like a bee, I think you'd do
well to review your public statements on these topics and explain why you
consider them justified. Thanks in advance,
Peter Staudenmaier
)Frank
)
)P.S. Hey, critics, I'm back, which makes y'all happy, right? I'm like
)Mohamed Ali, a butterfly to poke and jab and fly off into the setting sun.
)
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:40:11 +1000
From: "Bennett, Christopher" (christopher.bennett cgey.com)
Subject: RE: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
Peter
Frank probably realised you were a self indulgent wanker and couldn't be
bothered with your very silly and childish comments.
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Staudenmaier [mailto:pstaud hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 22 July 2003 12:19 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
Hello Frank,
sorry to pick on you as soon as you announced your renewed presence on the
list, but since I'm in historical revisionist mode this evening, I couldn't
resist. Your last post here, from September 2002, ended with the following
remarkable paragraph:
"The attacks against Rudolf Steiner (racist, nazi, cult figure, etc) are,
imo, no more that mean-spirited revisionist tactics. (Like: Oh, Jefferson
had slaves, therefore he was a hypocrite with his "all men are created
equal" - Oh, Plato and Socrates were pedophiles, so don't believe their
philosophy - Oh, Goethe was a quack scientist because modern science doesn't
agree with him. -Oh, Shakespeare couldn't possibly have written all that
stuff, he didn't even finish high school. Oh, Jesus probably didn't even
exist, because there's no real evidence, etc. (I don't mean that WC talks
about those people, just indicating examples of revisionism.) As far as
Steiner is concerned, it amounts to quotations out of context of things he
may or may not have said (often lecture transcripts, especially the early
ones, are of dubious accuracy) - or misinterpretations (often deliberate) of
same. I personally abhor racism (though I once lived for 4 years with an
American black woman-in Germany-and she told me that all white people are
prejudiced, it's all a matter of degree, and the liberals are the worst
because they don't realize it), and I assure you that I would recognize it
if I really found it in anthroposophy. Which doesn't mean that there are no
anthroposophists who are racists - you get all kinds. Did you know, btw,
that an attempt was made on Steiner's life in Germany in 1922 by the
proto-nazis, and that Hitler, once in power, convinced that Steiner must
have been a Jew, ordered the Gestapo to investigate his genealogy? (this is
documented) and that both the Anthroposophical Society and the Waldorf
schools were forbidden in Nazi Germany? Just a minor detail.
See you guys next time I feel constipated.
in vino veritas,
Frank"
I replied point-by-point a day later (and sent you a copy of my post
privately), but heard nothing back from you. To refresh your memory, you can
find my post here:
http://www.topica.com/lists/waldorf-critics/read/message.html?mid=1710979604
In brief, I'd be most interested to learn why you think revising inaccurate
accounts of history is a bad thing (if that is in fact what you think),
which examples of "out of context" Steiner quotes you have encountered on
this list, why you continue to translate and publish Steiner's early lecture
transcripts if you consider them unreliable, and where you picked up the
several myths about anthroposophy and Nazism that you repeated above, as
well as where you believe these things are "documented". Unless you take
pride in stinging like a butterfly and floating like a bee, I think you'd do
well to review your public statements on these topics and explain why you
consider them justified. Thanks in advance,
Peter Staudenmaier
)Frank
)
)P.S. Hey, critics, I'm back, which makes y'all happy, right? I'm like
)Mohamed Ali, a butterfly to poke and jab and fly off into the setting sun.
)
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==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 21:54:36 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
Christopher Bennett wrote:
)Peter
)
)Frank probably realised you were a self indulgent wanker and couldn't be
)bothered with your very silly and childish comments.
That's possible, but unlikely; Frank's own manner is somewhat closer to your
description than mine is (you might want to go back and read some of his
earlier posts if you doubt that claim). In any case, why would that make the
slightest difference? I reply to all sorts of self indulgent wankers, and
spend much of my time bothering with comments that I think are silly and
childish. You evidently just did the very same thing yourself, in replying
to me. Why would Frank somehow fall into a different category? I look
forward to your thoughtful response.
Peter S.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 23:00:26 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
Peter S.:
"That's possible, but unlikely; Frank's own manner is somewhat closer to
your description than mine is (you might want to go back and read some
of his earlier posts if you doubt that claim)."
Yes if I recall Frank's last comments to me were along the lines of, he
wouldn't want to meet me in a dark alley. Diana
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 00:34:26 -0400
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: another case of abuse & whooping cough
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Frank wrote: This is a problem having to do with the collegial
management of Waldorf schools.
Nicole: That may be part of it, but it was fairly obvious to me that
there was more to the problem than that. The teachers at our school
went into siege mentality as soon as the problem of their colleague's
behaviour was raised as a concern by the parent body. They knew
exactly what this teacher was like as he treated them in much the
same way as he treated the children and their parents (as a bully),
yet they defended him against the parents and tried to make the
parents feel they were in the wrong. Other teachers said to me that
the litany of incidents related to the college of teachers by the
parents amounted to nothing but slander. They were defending the
indefensible and they knew it. At that point trust in the school was
no longer possible for many families.
It was very clear to me from the time I spent as a subject teacher
there attending faculty meetings that anthroposophy was the religion
of the teachers at our school. Faculty meeting involved reverential
Steiner readings in the manner of gospel readings at a revival
meeting. Anthroposophy involves a very different way of seeing the
world, with the intensity of fundamentalist religious belief in my
experience. Anthroposophists see themselves are far more similar to
each other, no matter what inter-faculty animosities they may be
nursing, than to non-anthroposophist parents, hence the
us-versus-them mentality. It was rather like the view JK Rowling's
wizarding community has of muggles. Like muggles, non-anthroposophist
parents seemed to be seen as inferior beings not privy to the
important secrets of the universe (such as the Akashic Record as
supposedly revealed by Steiner's clairvoyance), and therefore not
deserving of a great deal of respect.
In my opinion, Waldorf schools deliberately deceive parents by
failing to inform them of Waldorf's religious mission, which a senior
anthroposophist told me was to do the soulwork necessary for many
important souls to reincarnate in this century. I do not send my
children to school for teachers to practice their version of soulwork
on my children behind my back for their own esoteric reasons. I send
them to school for a conventional (earthly) academic education. A
school intending to do other than that should be able to proceed only
with the fully informed consent of parents - a nicety which Waldorf
neglects.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 00:51:19 -0400
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: teacher training (was discipline in Waldorf schools)
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Lysa wrote: How much training does a Waldorf teacher receive and
what exactly do they study?
Nicole: You can find information on what teachers study in Waldorf
teacher training at OpenWaldorf.com. A great deal of it seems to be
indoctrination into Steiner's esoteric religion. Very little emphasis
seems to be put on how to teach substantive topics, especially
considering that each teacher is supposed to be prepared to teacher
every grade from grade 1 to grade 8 with each class. Classroom
management doesn't seem to be a particular focus either from what I
have read. Teachers do not need education beyond high school in order
to be eligible for Waldorf teacher training here, although in some
jurisdictions they may need higher education, or a public teaching
certificate, or both in order to be allowed to teach in an
independent school. In my area, high school and Waldorf teacher
training are considered sufficient.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 23:02:53 -0700
From: "NJS" (oscar001 earthlink.net)
Subject: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
Frank wrote:
This is a problem having to do with the collegial
management of Waldorf schools. (I have no experience
in U.S. schools, but a lot in Argentine and European
ones, where the phenomenon also exists.) As there is
no principal, the burden of decision is left to the
teachers themselves. The teachers are supposed to be
free to teach as best they can out of their own
initiative, and this usually works fine and is
certainly a strong motivating factor. What happens,
however, when you have an incompetent teacher?
Well, at least Frank goes so far as to attribute to a
problem of process and administrative structure before
falling back on the old standy of "incompetent
teacher."
I tire of watching the ricochet between the parents
relating negative experiences at Waldorf schools and
defenders blaming it on individual teachers or
schools. From my observations on this list and others
it seems obvious that incompetent teaching, poor
classroom management, and circle-the-wagons faculty
are not rare at Waldorf schools. But my subjective
impression derives from watching a variety of parents
from locales far and near discuss these experiences
over the course of a year.
In our experience, a very highly considered faculty
member picked up several children by their shoulders
and slammed them into the ground while they were
standing in front of the class. Screaming at the kids
was also a common technique as is shaming them by
sending them to kindergarten. In order to answer to
those who wish to claim that these are individual and
unique examples of incompetence, has PLANS ever
conducted any sort of survey of how many different
schools are represented among the litany of
complaints? What their geographical distribution
might be? It would be interesting to discover if
these problems are more common in particular countries
or randomly distributed. Of course this could be done
in confidence without revealing the names of the
schools, or the names of those who have identified
them; simply having a number that indicates how many
times these incidents have occurred by geographic
region would be enlightening. Would a review of the
archives for Critics or Survivors provide this
picture?
So Frank, you've identified another obvious and long
standing problem, accountability. Referring to how a
school would know if a teacher is incompetent you
wrote:
"First of all, how do they know that he's incompetent?
A parent has a beef about him, let's say. To whom does
he go to complain? Good question, right? In many
schools he has to complain to the one he's complaining
about, which is ok if it works. If not, there's a
problem, of accountability as you call it. He might go
to a Board member, who might refer him to the
Teachers' Group, which may or may not have appointed
one of more of their number to handle complaints and
queries. And if the problem is taken up in the regular
teachers' meeting, it's a very delicate situation when
one of their own is being criticized, and is present.
In such circumstances it's a very easy for a "them vs.
us" attitude to develop."
Beyond deciding the flagrantly obvious question of
whether a teacher who binds children to chairs is
incompentent, what other measures would you use to
determine a teacher's competence Frank? How is
teacher efficacy defined in a Waldorf school?
Jeanine
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 23:33:24 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: Frank on "revisionist tactics"]
Christopher Bennett, you wrote:
)Peter
)
)Frank probably realised you were a self indulgent wanker and couldn't be
)bothered with your very silly and childish comments.
Christopher, this is a free speech forum with very few rules. The two
most important ones are that we stay on topic (Waldorf and
Anthroposophy) and we discuss the topics, not the other subscribers.
Your statement above contributes nothing to the discussion. You may
be as emphatic as you wish about the subject of discussion; you may
not attack other subscribers personally.
-Dan Dugan
Moderator
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1098
-- Topica Digest --
Re: (Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school)society
as a theater!
By ulfva telia.com
Re: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
By ulfva telia.com
biodynamic preparation
By ulfva telia.com
RE: Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
By franksmith vdolores.com.ar
RE: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
By franksmith vdolores.com.ar
RE: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
By franksmith vdolores.com.ar
RE: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
By franksmith vdolores.com.ar
RE: another case of abuse & whooping cough
By franksmith vdolores.com.ar
RE: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
By franksmith vdolores.com.ar
Re: biodynamic preparation
By dan dandugan.com
Accountability, efficacy, assessment and Waldorf: oxymoron?
By oscar001 earthlink.net
RE: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: teacher training (was discipline in Waldorf schools)
By Redwoodforest msn.com
local paper's report: The Independent
By dan dandugan.com
RE: local paper's report: The Independent
By christopher.bennett cgey.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:50:53 +0200
From: "Ylva Eliasson" (ulfva telia.com)
Subject: Re: (Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school)society
as a theater!
Anthros always keep saying "guilt by association" as one point out
conformity with nazism. Your example is a bad one just like the one I
heard resently - nazist used to practice outdoor life, therefore all
outdoor life enthusiasts are nazis! I never thought that neighter
that every two-legged person is a nazi. But as I keep finding the
same way of acting and expressing things among the anthroposophists
and the nazis I will keep arguing that there is a connection.
There is a book, unfortunately only in swedish I think, named "the
society as a theater" If I¥d not known it was about the nazis I¥d
have thought it was all about the anthros!
Ylva
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 12:30 AM
Subject: Re: Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
) This is not a good argument. There isn't anything wrong with things being
) beautiful. One might equally argue that since the Nazis had two legs each
) (well most of them) that having two legs was a suspect property.
) See you, Peter
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 19:26:13 +0200
From: "Ylva Eliasson" (ulfva telia.com)
Subject: Re: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
?????????????????????????
Ylva
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bennett, Christopher" (christopher.bennett cgey.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 4:40 AM
Subject: RE: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
)
) Peter
)
) Frank probably realised you were a self indulgent wanker and couldn't be
) bothered with your very silly and childish comments.
)
)
)
)
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Peter Staudenmaier [mailto:pstaud hotmail.com]
) Sent: Tuesday, 22 July 2003 12:19 PM
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
)
)
) Hello Frank,
)
) sorry to pick on you as soon as you announced your renewed presence on the
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 21:39:54 +0200
From: "Ylva Eliasson" (ulfva telia.com)
Subject: biodynamic preparation
Does anybody know about the biodynamic preparations a little more
than I do? I just read in the Demeter magazine "Kultura" that anthro
people are travelling to India ( and to Africa think I mentioned
before) to teach biodynamic agriculturing bringing theese things on
the plane. Seems a bit peculiar to me - I mean if theese preparations
are nessesary for biodynamic cultivation it should be possible to
prepare them anywhere. I¥m not even sure the plants needed for the
preparations grow all over the world? If anyone know about this -
tell me. The plants I¥m talkin about are - dandelion - oak -
valeriana (valerianae officinalis) - stringing nettle - camomile -
achillea millefolium
Ylva
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:30:56 -0300
From: "Frank Thomas Smith" (franksmith vdolores.com.ar)
Subject: RE: Teacher's tactics cloud idyll of private school
Peter wrote: (snip)
In fact, I seem to recall Frank
) Thomas Smith -- welcome back, Frank -- falling for more or less the same
) mistake just before he harrumphed off the list last time around. (snip)
Thanks for the welcome, Peter, but just to correct an understandably
incorrect impression: I didn't "harrumph" off last time. Fact is that this
is a very active list and I simply don't have time to stay long. Also, I
can't compete with you as far as research goes. My anthroposophical library
is small, now, and I live on a mountain at the ass end of the world without
access to reference materials. So my contributions here are mostly from
experience and/or memory. (That's not meant as a excuse, just to explain
why, when you cite a snippet of GA234, Hamburg, 1776, I often can neither
refute nor agree, because I simple don't have it, though I may have read it
at some time.) I do like to give a harrumphing saludo on my way out though.
Frank
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:54:33 -0300
From: "Frank Thomas Smith" (franksmith vdolores.com.ar)
Subject: RE: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
Jeanine wrote:
) Beyond deciding the flagrantly obvious question of
) whether a teacher who binds children to chairs is
) incompentent, what other measures would you use to
) determine a teacher's competence Frank? How is
) teacher efficacy defined in a Waldorf school?
First of all, I came in on this on Nicole's mail, and only on reading back
did I realize that a teacher had tied a child to a chair. Assuming that this
really happened, it is no longer a question of competence, but of criminal
behaviour and cause for immediate dismissal, even legal action. Now to your
question: I already admitted that it is a problem. However, when it is done
correctly, the new teacher begins as an assistant to an experienced teacher
for at least a year. Then, when he/she takes her own class - when deemed
ready and qualified by the experienced teacher - another experienced teacher
observes her classes for a while and sporadically, not to control, but to be
able to offer advice and assistance, although an element of control is
inevitable. In my classes in the seminar, I use play acting for group
devlopment: a teacher is accused of striking a child, for example. She
denies it. The group must find out what actually happened and make the
proper decision. I am all the witnesses: parents, accused teacher, etc. (if
they call the child as witness, it's a mistake. I, as the child, burst out
crying and the affair becomes more confused than ever. Most groups realize
this and don't call the child.) They think at the beginning that they will
find out that the accusation is false, but upon investigation they find that
it is true and fire the teacher. It is quite dramatic and, I think,
effective.
Frank
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:44:32 -0300
From: "Frank Thomas Smith" (franksmith vdolores.com.ar)
Subject: RE: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
Hi, Peter,
) Hello Frank,
)
) sorry to pick on you as soon as you announced your renewed presence on the
) list, but since I'm in historical revisionist mode this evening, I
couldn't
) resist.
Oh, that's okay. I expected no less.
Your last post here, from September 2002, ended with the following
) remarkable paragraph:
)
) "The attacks against Rudolf Steiner (racist, nazi, cult figure, etc) are,
) imo, no more that mean-spirited revisionist tactics. (Like: Oh, Jefferson
) had slaves, therefore he was a hypocrite with his "all men are created
) equal" - Oh, Plato and Socrates were pedophiles, so don't believe their
) philosophy - Oh, Goethe was a quack scientist because modern science
doesn't
) agree with him. -Oh, Shakespeare couldn't possibly have written all that
) stuff, he didn't even finish high school. Oh, Jesus probably didn't even
) exist, because there's no real evidence, etc. (I don't mean that WC talks
) about those people, just indicating examples of revisionism.) As far as
) Steiner is concerned, it amounts to quotations out of context of things he
) may or may not have said (often lecture transcripts, especially the early
) ones, are of dubious accuracy) - or misinterpretations (often deliberate)
of
) same. I personally abhor racism (though I once lived for 4 years with an
) American black woman-in Germany-and she told me that all white people are
) prejudiced, it's all a matter of degree, and the liberals are the worst
) because they don't realize it), and I assure you that I would recognize it
) if I really found it in anthroposophy. Which doesn't mean that there are
no
) anthroposophists who are racists - you get all kinds. Did you know, btw,
) that an attempt was made on Steiner's life in Germany in 1922 by the
) proto-nazis, and that Hitler, once in power, convinced that Steiner must
) have been a Jew, ordered the Gestapo to investigate his genealogy? (this
is
) documented) and that both the Anthroposophical Society and the Waldorf
) schools were forbidden in Nazi Germany? Just a minor detail.
)
) See you guys next time I feel constipated.
) in vino veritas,
) Frank"
)
)
) I replied point-by-point a day later (and sent you a copy of my post
) privately), but heard nothing back from you. To refresh your memory, you
can
) find my post here:
)
)
http://www.topica.com/lists/waldorf-critics/read/message.html?mid=1710979604
)
Sorry that I didn't answer your private post, if only to say that I wouldn't
be anwering it. I was probably in a bind with other things and may not have
read it. As far as the list is concerned, I
was already off it.
)
) In brief, I'd be most interested to learn why you think revising
inaccurate
) accounts of history is a bad thing (if that is in fact what you think),
No, I don't think it is a bad thing. I was referring to the kind of
revisionism which has as its purpose the destruction of the reputations of
historical personalities, while ignoring the evidence of their positive
contributions. The examples you so kindly resucitated are, I think, fair
examples.
) which examples of "out of context" Steiner quotes you have encountered on
) this list, why you continue to translate and publish Steiner's early
lecture
) transcripts if you consider them unreliable,
Good question. I've had serious doubts about that myself. In some cases
because they weren't yet available in English. The current karma lectures
(already available in English, though not a very good translation) will
probably be the last of these.
and where you picked up the
) several myths about anthroposophy and Nazism that you repeated above, as
) well as where you believe these things are "documented". Unless you take
) pride in stinging like a butterfly and floating like a bee,
I do, I do - and thanks for reminding me of the correct quote.
I think you'd
do
) well to review your public statements on these topics and explain why you
) consider them justified. Thanks in advance,
Justification: from Flensburger Heft, 3/91, page 71: "In 1922 an attack
against Rudolf Steiner took place in the Vier Jahreszeiten Hotel during a
lecture. An eye witness, the anthroposophist Emil Leinhas, reports on it in
his book "Aus der Arbeit mit Rudolf Steiner".
The attack "not completely unexpected by us, was carried out be a
nationalist assault group (v–lkischen Stosstrupp). At the moment when Rudolf
Steiner was speaking the last words of his lecture, the lights in the room
went out and the attackers jumped onto the podium. Rudolf Steiner was just
able to end his lecture. Because of our prepared defence that immediately
went into action, especially the courageous intervention by some friends...,
Rudolf Steiner was protected from rough maltreatment. He was then able,
covered by friends, to escape through the back door of the hotel." (my
translation)
From this description, it would appear that I exaggerated when I said it was
an attack on his life. Maybe I read somewhere else that it was, don't know.
But that's not the point, it being that accusing Steiner of nazi-ish racism
, when the proto-nazis (Hitler's group or others) were attacking him for not
being racist, is contradictory to say the least.
Frank
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:51:38 -0300
From: "Frank Thomas Smith" (franksmith vdolores.com.ar)
Subject: RE: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
)
) Peter S.:
) "That's possible, but unlikely; Frank's own manner is somewhat closer to
) your description than mine is (you might want to go back and read some
) of his earlier posts if you doubt that claim)."
)
) Yes if I recall Frank's last comments to me were along the lines of, he
) wouldn't want to meet me in a dark alley. Diana
Diana dear, What *are* you implying? I said dark alley, not dark hotel room.
Yours,
Frank
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:29:20 -0300
From: "Frank Thomas Smith" (franksmith vdolores.com.ar)
Subject: RE: another case of abuse & whooping cough
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Nicole wrote:
Frank wrote: This is a problem having to do with the collegial
management of Waldorf schools.
Nicole: That may be part of it, but it was fairly obvious to me
that there was more to the problem than that. The teachers at our
school went into siege mentality as soon as the problem of their
colleague's behaviour was raised as a concern by the parent body.
They knew exactly what this teacher was like as he treated them in
much the same way as he treated the children and their parents (as a
bully), yet they defended him against the parents and tried to make
the parents feel they were in the wrong. Other teachers said to me
that the litany of incidents related to the college of teachers by
the parents amounted to nothing but slander. They were defending the
indefensible and they knew it. At that point trust in the school was
no longer possible for many families.
It was very clear to me from the time I spent as a subject teacher
there attending faculty meetings that anthroposophy was the religion
of the teachers at our school. Faculty meeting involved reverential
Steiner readings in the manner of gospel readings at a revival
meeting. Anthroposophy involves a very different way of seeing the
world, with the intensity of fundamentalist religious belief in my
experience. Anthroposophists see themselves are far more similar to
each other, no matter what inter-faculty animosities they may be
nursing, than to non-anthroposophist parents, hence the
us-versus-them mentality. It was rather like the view JK Rowling's
wizarding community has of muggles. Like muggles, non-anthroposophist
parents seemed to be seen as inferior beings not privy to the
important secrets of the universe (such as the Akashic Record as
supposedly revealed by Steiner's clairvoyance), and therefore not
deserving of a great deal of respect.
Frank: Damn, I was hoping no one would catch on: Hogwarts is a
Waldorf school. But, seriously, your observations are, IMO,
essentially correct in some schools. I don't know all schools, and
neither do you, but I do know some where what you say isn't the case.
But I think you'll agree that teachers studying anthroposophy in
schools in which the pedagogy is based on same is logical. There are
also teachers who know next to nothing about anthroposophy, or don't
much like it (believe me), and teach nevertheless using the Waldorf
method. It becomes a problem when they become dogmatic or arrogant
know-it-alls.
In my opinion, Waldorf schools deliberately deceive parents by
failing to inform them of Waldorf's religious mission, which a senior
anthroposophist told me was to do the soulwork necessary for many
important souls to reincarnate in this century.
I take issue with "deliberately". If and when this happens, I would
say "unconsciously" deceive parents...
I do not send my children to school for teachers to practice their
version of soulwork on my children behind my back for their own
esoteric reasons. I send them to school for a conventional (earthly)
academic education. A school intending to do other than that should
be able to proceed only with the fully informed consent of parents -
a nicety which Waldorf neglects.
Obviously parents who want "conventional" education for their
children shouldn't send them to a Waldorf school. And if the school
does not make clear that the education is not conventional, and is
based on anthroposophy, a spiritual science, and makes the necessary
literature available to them, then I agree that they commit a grave
error. It ain't so easy though. In the W-school with which I am now
associated, we explain all that in writing, even have them sign a
paper that they agree before accepting the child. Few, however, look
at the literature. Parental support, by the way, is very strong.
They work hard for the school and make considerable financial
sacrifices in a country still reeling economically. In my experience,
this is the case in most schools. If it isn't, something's wrong.
Frank
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:49:08 -0300
From: "Frank Thomas Smith" (franksmith vdolores.com.ar)
Subject: RE: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
) Christopher Bennett wrote:
)
) )Peter
) )
) )Frank probably realised you were a self indulgent wanker and couldn't be
) )bothered with your very silly and childish comments.
)
Peter:
) That's possible, but unlikely; Frank's own manner is somewhat closer to
your
) description than mine is (you might want to go back and read some of his
) earlier posts if you doubt that claim). In any case, why would that make
the
) slightest difference? I reply to all sorts of self indulgent wankers, and
) spend much of my time bothering with comments that I think are silly and
) childish. You evidently just did the very same thing yourself, in replying
) to me. Why would Frank somehow fall into a different category? I look
) forward to your thoughtful response.
I recently read that masturbation is an excellent preventive for prostate
cancer for men between 40 and 55. This scientific breakthrough comes too
late for me (over 55) - perhaps Peter can benefit though.
Frank
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:25:31 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: biodynamic preparation
Ylva Eliasson, you wrote:
)Does anybody know about the biodynamic preparations a little more
)than I do? I just read in the Demeter magazine "Kultura" that anthro
)people are travelling to India ( and to Africa think I mentioned
)before) to teach biodynamic agriculturing bringing theese things on
)the plane. Seems a bit peculiar to me - I mean if theese
)preparations are nessesary for biodynamic cultivation it should be
)possible to prepare them anywhere. I¥m not even sure the plants
)needed for the preparations grow all over the world? If anyone know
)about this - tell me. The plants I¥m talkin about are - dandelion
)- oak - valeriana (valerianae officinalis) - stringing nettle -
)camomile - achillea millefolium
Maybe it's because of the time it takes to prepare some of them. The
dung in the cow's horn is buried over winter, right? Since they're
homeopathically diluted, a small supply will go a long way.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:43:14 -0700
From: "NJS" (oscar001 earthlink.net)
Subject: Accountability, efficacy, assessment and Waldorf: oxymoron?
Frank wrote:
Now to your
) question: I already admitted that it is a problem. However, when it is
done
) correctly, the new teacher begins as an assistant to an experienced
teacher
) for at least a year. Then, when he/she takes her own class - when deemed
) ready and qualified by the experienced teacher - another experienced
teacher
) observes her classes for a while and sporadically, not to control, but to
be
) able to offer advice and assistance, although an element of control is
) inevitable.
So, it sounds like you would rely on the experienced teacher, through
initial and then sporadic monitoring, to evaluate a new teacher's readiness
and suitability to handle a class for 8 years? As you know anyone who is
being observed behaves differently then they would unobserved, especially if
the observation's purpose is to evaluate. Would recommend any other methods
to assess a teacher's competence? How do you know if all of your students
are being served? How does one determine whether a teacher is conveying the
Waldorf curriculum adequately? How do you discover which children may be
lost, falling behind, or simply not getting anything out of the Waldorf
model? These questions become more important in Waldorf since there are no
forms of student assessment in the early grades beyond the subjective
musings of the teacher. Nor can parents volunteer during main lesson. And
since main lesson books are copied almost rote from teacher's example on
the board what do they truly reveal other than a child's ability to imitate?
Other than the mentor sitting at the back of the room, what other methods
can be used to assess a teacher's competence when no adults are watching?
In my classes in the seminar, I use play acting for group
) devlopment: a teacher is accused of striking a child, for example. She
) denies it. The group must find out what actually happened and make the
) proper decision. I am all the witnesses: parents, accused teacher, etc.
(if
) they call the child as witness, it's a mistake. I, as the child, burst out
) crying and the affair becomes more confused than ever. Most groups realize
) this and don't call the child.) They think at the beginning that they will
) find out that the accusation is false, but upon investigation they find
that
) it is true and fire the teacher.
You said "all of the witnesses: parents, teacher" From our experience and
what I understand from other parnets it is rare for parents to be present
during main lesson. If you have no parent witnesses, what then? Are the
non-victimized children interviewed?
Isn't it commonly understood Frank that teachers are learning along with
their students? That, ideally, they are only a few weeks ahead of the
subject matter? That they are also on a journey of spiritual development
and are to learn as much from their students about themselves as they are to
instruct? How does Waldorf determine when a teacher is a poor student? Or
when a teacher is not "keeping up" with their class? If the model assumes
mutual education, then there must be some way to assess a teacher's
progress, no?
Jeanine
==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:52:19 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
"a teacher is accused of striking a child, for example. She
denies it. The group must find out what actually happened and make the
proper decision. I am all the witnesses: parents, accused teacher, etc.
(if
they call the child as witness, it's a mistake. I, as the child, burst
out
crying and the affair becomes more confused than ever. Most groups
realize
this and don't call the child.) They think at the beginning that they
will
find out that the accusation is false, but upon investigation they find
that
it is true and fire the teacher."
Reading this again perhaps I misunderstood. If the teacher denies it,
and the children are not questioned, it must have been the parent who
reported that the teacher really did strike a child. Parents are not
likely to happen to be standing around when a teacher hits a student, so
this is so rare a scenario as to be virtually useless.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:52:19 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
Jeanine has already called you on this but I can't let it pass. It is
preposterous.
"I am all the witnesses: parents, accused teacher, etc."
As you are well aware, parents are rarely present during main lesson,
and in any event a teacher is very unlikely to hit a child with a parent
present. So in your scenario "witness" = "teacher" and as Jeanine notes
you do not mention the other children. (Probably it is considered too
"awakening" to question them. Of course it must have been rather
"awakening" for them to see a classmate abused.)
So if the sole witness is the teacher, her version is going to prevail.
I assume then that your group decided the teacher was guilty because she
admitted it. What if she didn't admit it?
"if they call the child as witness, it's a mistake. I, as the child,
burst out crying and the affair becomes more confused than ever. Most
groups realize this and don't call the child.)"
I fail to understand why it is a mistake to call the child. First you
stack the deck against the child with your crying charade - some
children will cry if questioned and others would not. There is a wide
range of reactions to trauma and you are perpetuating a stereotype that
is unuseful. Why don't you have professionals, psychologists or social
workers, come in and explain the range of children's reactions to trauma
to these students - give a realistic idea of what they might expect to
see, not just stage a silly crying fit.
Then you apparently imply that if the child cries, she/he is not
credible. Again that is wrong information and irresponsible. It isn't
even logical - children do cry when they are hit, Frank. Overall,
however, the crying bears little relevance to whether she/he is telling
the truth. Again you need professional advice here. It sounds like you
are teaching them, perhaps inadvertently, that the child will lie while
the teacher should be given the benefit of the doubt. Yet it would
appear to be the teacher who has more reason to lie. The message
students would take away from your staged scenario seems to be that when
a teacher is accused, the teacher's version of events will prevail.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 23:12:23 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
Another story on Hawthorne Valley, this is local to the school I
believe.
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=9880793&BRD=248&PAG=461&dept_i
d=462341&rfi=6
Again it is crystal clear the teacher will not be fired and that that is
actually all right with many parents.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 21:24:23 -0700
From: "Lysa De Thomas" (Redwoodforest msn.com)
Subject: Re: teacher training (was discipline in Waldorf schools)
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C35097.9F49E610
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I have seen similar problems in Montessori schools. I think that the
big problem is that Waldorf schools like most private schools do not
have any hard fast rules and guidelines for dealing with teacher
behavior. I have watched many wonderful private school teachers
fired for ridiculous reasons and many horrendous teachers kept for
just as ridiculous reasons. People often have the belief that
private enterprise will keep the private schools honest; that if
there is a problem and it isn't taken care of, people will leave the
school and then the school will have to take care of the problem or
loose money. What people are forgetting is how a good spin doctor,
or even our inner desires for something to be true, will delude a lot
of people. Also there are so many people moving into many places
nowadays that there are often new families in the area who have no
idea of previous problems, or can be convinced that the problems have
been taken care of.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 21:54:06 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: local paper's report: The Independent
Indnews.com: The Independent Online 7/23/03
Teacher's discipline called "inappropriate"
By:RICHARD ROTH 07/22/2003
HARLEMVILLE--At least seven families have withdrawn their children
from Hawthorne Valley School because of "inappropriate" disciplinary
measures by a second-grade teacher.
The school has issued a statement acknowledging a
"disciplinary error" and says steps have been taken to insure that
the errors will not be repeated. The teacher, Claire McConnell, is
accused of strapping a student to a chair, taping a student's mouth
shut, and tying another student's hands behind his back.
Corrective steps include training seminars, individual
coaching, teaching support in the classroom, and "frequent check-in
points with the Council of Teachers and the Teacher Development
Committee."
Even so, some parents are not convinced that the school is
taking the problem seriously.
"Our son was the recipient of what I consider some really
inappropriate behavior," said Mary Ann Davis, whose son had his mouth
taped shut.
Ms. Davis confronted Ms. McConnell when she found out about
the incident, and she says both the teacher and her son made it sound
like a joke. "Since then," she said, "I've found out that it's a
tactic this teacher takes."
Ms. McConnell is alleged to have strapped a girl to a chair
last year, and a boy in this year's class had his hands tied behind
his back. The prominence of her father, Senator Mitch McConnell
(R-KY), the incidents have drawn national attention.
Bob Wohlfeld, who hosts a morning talk show on WPYX-FM in
Albany, said he and his wife wanted to write off the strapping
incident "as a stupid mistake" when it came to their attention last
year.
"[Ms. McConnell] promised it would never happen again," he
said. "Then the boy's hands were tied this year, and we felt the
school's response was totally inadequate. A bunch of parents got
together and talked about it on numerous occasions. We felt we
couldn't put our children back in a classroom were there was
emotional harm."
In order to closely follow individual development, teachers at
the school are assigned the same class from kindergarten through
eighth grade. Because the teacher moves up through the grades along
with her students, the students who were in Ms. McConnell's class
this year will continue to be taught by her next year.
Mr. Wohlfeld moved to Columbia County from Saratoga Springs
and Ms. Davis, from New York City. Both came to the area specifically
to enroll their children at the school. "The first thing we did was
to get acceptance from Hawthorne Valley, before putting a deposit on
a house," Ms. Davis said.
Hawthorne Valley is certified by the Association of Waldorf
Schools of North America. The schools base their teaching methods on
the ideas of Austrian philosopher/educator Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925).
The arts play a large part in the curriculum, and Ms.
McConnell holds the degree of Bachelor of Fine Arts from Smith
College.
"The education is very profound," said Dr. Joel Goldstein of
Hillsdale, both of whose sons attended Hawthorne Valley. "The kids
are talented and well-rounded when they get out."
He said his younger son had "no trouble" attaining membership
in the National Honor Society when he chose to finish his senior year
at Taconic Hills.
There are distinct differences in the educational methods.
Because Waldorf schools do not teach reading until third grade, Ms.
Davis has hired a reading tutor to prepare her son for enrollment in
the Chatham school district next fall.
Some parents, Leslie Gabriel of Hillsdale for example, were
not upset by the allegations. Mr. Gabriel has a daughter in Ms.
McConnell's class and he said he has no plans to move her to another
school.
"I wasn't in the classroom and I haven't made a judgment," he
said. "I think what the school is attempting to do is to support the
teacher. [My daughter] did say some stuff happened but it wasn't like
she didn't want to go to school."
All the parents involved spoke highly of Waldorf education in
general. "One of the disappointment is that this is casting a shadow
on a very positive movement," said Ms. Davis.
Bruce Frishkoff, Hawthorne Valley's Director of Guidance, said
Waldorf schools are certified every five years by the Association of
Waldorf Schools of North America. A more intensive review is
undertaken every ten years, and Hawthorne Valley passed the ten- year
review approximately two years ago.
The school was established in 1973. There were 315 students
enrolled in grades K through 12 last year.
Beyond issuing a statement about corrective steps, the school
declined further comment on the matter.
©The Independent 2003
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:58:36 +1000
From: "Bennett, Christopher" (christopher.bennett cgey.com)
Subject: RE: local paper's report: The Independent
Dan
A parent was quoted in the same article saying:
""One of the disappointment is that this is casting a shadow
on a very positive movement,"
Selective censorship does not strengthen your argument against these
schools.....
Christopher Bennett
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Dugan [mailto:dan dandugan.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 23 July 2003 2:54 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: local paper's report: The Independent
Indnews.com: The Independent Online 7/23/03
Teacher's discipline called "inappropriate"
By:RICHARD ROTH 07/22/2003
HARLEMVILLE--At least seven families have withdrawn their children
from Hawthorne Valley School because of "inappropriate" disciplinary
measures by a second-grade teacher.
The school has issued a statement acknowledging a
"disciplinary error" and says steps have been taken to insure that
the errors will not be repeated. The teacher, Claire McConnell, is
accused of strapping a student to a chair, taping a student's mouth
shut, and tying another student's hands behind his back.
Corrective steps include training seminars, individual
coaching, teaching support in the classroom, and "frequent check-in
points with the Council of Teachers and the Teacher Development
Committee."
Even so, some parents are not convinced that the school is
taking the problem seriously.
"Our son was the recipient of what I consider some really
inappropriate behavior," said Mary Ann Davis, whose son had his mouth
taped shut.
Ms. Davis confronted Ms. McConnell when she found out about
the incident, and she says both the teacher and her son made it sound
like a joke. "Since then," she said, "I've found out that it's a
tactic this teacher takes."
Ms. McConnell is alleged to have strapped a girl to a chair
last year, and a boy in this year's class had his hands tied behind
his back. The prominence of her father, Senator Mitch McConnell
(R-KY), the incidents have drawn national attention.
Bob Wohlfeld, who hosts a morning talk show on WPYX-FM in
Albany, said he and his wife wanted to write off the strapping
incident "as a stupid mistake" when it came to their attention last
year.
"[Ms. McConnell] promised it would never happen again," he
said. "Then the boy's hands were tied this year, and we felt the
school's response was totally inadequate. A bunch of parents got
together and talked about it on numerous occasions. We felt we
couldn't put our children back in a classroom were there was
emotional harm."
In order to closely follow individual development, teachers at
the school are assigned the same class from kindergarten through
eighth grade. Because the teacher moves up through the grades along
with her students, the students who were in Ms. McConnell's class
this year will continue to be taught by her next year.
Mr. Wohlfeld moved to Columbia County from Saratoga Springs
and Ms. Davis, from New York City. Both came to the area specifically
to enroll their children at the school. "The first thing we did was
to get acceptance from Hawthorne Valley, before putting a deposit on
a house," Ms. Davis said.
Hawthorne Valley is certified by the Association of Waldorf
Schools of North America. The schools base their teaching methods on
the ideas of Austrian philosopher/educator Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925).
The arts play a large part in the curriculum, and Ms.
McConnell holds the degree of Bachelor of Fine Arts from Smith
College.
"The education is very profound," said Dr. Joel Goldstein of
Hillsdale, both of whose sons attended Hawthorne Valley. "The kids
are talented and well-rounded when they get out."
He said his younger son had "no trouble" attaining membership
in the National Honor Society when he chose to finish his senior year
at Taconic Hills.
There are distinct differences in the educational methods.
Because Waldorf schools do not teach reading until third grade, Ms.
Davis has hired a reading tutor to prepare her son for enrollment in
the Chatham school district next fall.
Some parents, Leslie Gabriel of Hillsdale for example, were
not upset by the allegations. Mr. Gabriel has a daughter in Ms.
McConnell's class and he said he has no plans to move her to another
school.
"I wasn't in the classroom and I haven't made a judgment," he
said. "I think what the school is attempting to do is to support the
teacher. [My daughter] did say some stuff happened but it wasn't like
she didn't want to go to school."
All the parents involved spoke highly of Waldorf education in
general. "One of the disappointment is that this is casting a shadow
on a very positive movement," said Ms. Davis.
Bruce Frishkoff, Hawthorne Valley's Director of Guidance, said
Waldorf schools are certified every five years by the Association of
Waldorf Schools of North America. A more intensive review is
undertaken every ten years, and Hawthorne Valley passed the ten- year
review approximately two years ago.
The school was established in 1973. There were 315 students
enrolled in grades K through 12 last year.
Beyond issuing a statement about corrective steps, the school
declined further comment on the matter.
©The Independent 2003
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1099
-- Topica Digest --
RE: local paper's report: The Independent
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: local paper's report: The Independent
By Gary goodwinter.com
Re: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
By owenapp suscom-maine.net
Re: Re: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Teacher accused of having sex with teen
By snell gv.net
RE: Accountability, efficacy, assessment and Waldorf: oxymoron?
By franksmith vdolores.com.ar
RE: local paper's report: The Independent
By christopher.bennett cgey.com
RE: Teacher accused of having sex with teen
By christopher.bennett cgey.com
SV: Teacher accused of having sex with teen
By gbg2013 minpost.nu
SV: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
By gbg2013 minpost.nu
SV: local paper's report: The Independent
By gbg2013 minpost.nu
SV: Accountability, efficacy, assessment and Waldorf: oxymoron?
By gbg2013 minpost.nu
RE: local paper's report: The Independent
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: SV: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
By snell gv.net
RE: local paper's report: The Independent
By dan dandugan.com
Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: local paper's report: The
Independent]
By dan dandugan.com
Re: local paper's report: The Independent
By oscar001 earthlink.net
Re: Accountability, efficacy, assessment and Waldorf: oxymoron?
By oscar001 earthlink.net
RE: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
By pstaud hotmail.com
Frank's version of history
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: local paper's report: The Independent
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: Accountability, efficacy, assessment and Waldorf: oxymoron?
By franksmith vdolores.com.ar
Fwd: In Response
By snell gv.net
RE: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: local paper's report: TheIndependent]
By franksmith vdolores.com.ar
RE: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
By franksmith vdolores.com.ar
RE: Frank's version of history
By franksmith vdolores.com.ar
Re: biodynamic preparation
By ulfva telia.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:31:46 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: local paper's report: The Independent
Christopher Bennett wrote:
"A parent was quoted in the same article saying:
'One of the disappointment is that this is casting a shadow
on a very positive movement,'
Selective censorship does not strengthen your argument against these
schools....."
What do you mean? Dan did not censor it. The entire article appeared
including the quote above.
Oddly you seem to think that the parents' continuing loyalty to a
school that refuses to protect their children, by firing an abusive
teacher, reflects well on Waldorf overall. I think the opposite. In a
healthy community a person who attacked the youngest and most vulnerable
would be immediately barred from further contact with them. This is what
the parents should insist on if they want to help the school recover its
reputation and help the movement look "positive." The reaction of the
parents who remain at the school - at least many who have been quoted -
makes the community appear extremely insular and deluded.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:33:46 -0400
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C350F5.225F8200
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Diana wrote: As you are well aware, parents are rarely present
during main lesson, and in any event a teacher is very unlikely to
hit a child with a parent present. So in your scenario "witness" =
"teacher" and as Jeanine notes you do not mention the other children.
Nicole: At our school parents were witnesses to incidents more often
than you might think. Several documented incidents happened in the
hallway or playground when parents were passing by, in addition to
incidents which happened in the classroom. The individual in question
seems to feel that there's nothing wrong with his behaviour even if
parents are present, which makes it all the more galling that he's
still there as there were plenty of incidents of inappropriate
behaviour and plenty of witnesses (at least to the less serious
ones). Many of these incidents were investigated by the board and
substantiated, but they wanted to give him another chance.
I remember one math class he was a substitute for (I was the
classroom assistant) where he was trying to get the grade 5 children
to memorize fraction/decimal/percent equivalents. One child put up
his hand to ask a question and was bellowed at. He ended up in tears.
After the class, the teacher told me that children like to be treated
like that. I was horrified. Another parent saw him grab a child by
the front of his clothing, push him hard up against a wall and bellow
in his face. A whole group of older children were told, according to
those who were there, to get into their classroom immediately or he
would bash their heads against a wall. I have also seen him shout at
other teachers in front of students. It all begs the question of just
what would be considered a bridge too far.
Diana wrote: It sounds like you are teaching them, perhaps
inadvertently, that the child will lie while
the teacher should be given the benefit of the doubt.
Nicole: I recognize this mindset. My son (9 at the time) was accused
of "malicious vandalism" when a doorknob went through a wall next to
his classroom (where a doorknob had previously gone through and the
hole had been covered over with tape(!) while leaving the doorstop
too close to the wall to prevent it happening again). A teacher saw
my son inspecting the hole after the fact (but did not see the damage
being caused), and all the children who were in his class having
their lunch at the time said he had been inside the class and nowhere
near the door at the time (the children were quite clear about who
had been involved, but no one could really be blamed as it didn't
seem to be intentional and was an accident waiting to happen anyway
due to the previous poor repair). The same teacher I was referring to
above seemed to feel that a charge of malicious vandalism was
appropriate in the circumstances. When I pointed out the evidence of
the children (which no one had asked for except me), he said
sarcastically "And I suppose children never lie".
The prescribed punishment was for three children, including my son,
to come in on Saturday with their parents for a lecture (he
specifically said he wanted the parents discomforted) and to repair
the wall. It was pointed out to the teacher that the job would have
to be done in stages and so it didn't make sense for everyone to come
in at the same time. He was quite insistent that attendance at the
lecture was compulsory. This seemed quite preposterous to me and we
didn't attend, although we did come in on Sunday afternoon to put a
coat of paint on the wall (a lesson to my son to keep away from other
people's holes
in the wall). The parents and their children did a proper drywall
repair and also moved the doorstop to prevent it happening again over
the course of a weekend, but it left a nasty taste in everyone's
mouths. It was such an over-reaction to an accident waiting to happen
where there was no evidence of the damage being deliberate. The
attitude seemed to be to assume the worst of children.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:20:31 -0400
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Re: local paper's report: The Independent
Christopher,
If you open your eyes a little wider, you'll see that Dan did NOT censor
that statement, as you claim. It is near the end of the article.
) All the parents involved spoke highly of Waldorf education in
) general. "One of the disappointment is that this is casting a shadow
) on a very positive movement," said Ms. Davis.
Did you learn to "read" in a Waldorf school?
;-)
...Gary
on 7/23/03 1:58 AM, Bennett, Christopher at christopher.bennett cgey.com
wrote:
) Dan
)
) A parent was quoted in the same article saying:
)
) ""One of the disappointment is that this is casting a shadow
) on a very positive movement,"
)
) Selective censorship does not strengthen your argument against these
) schools.....
)
) Christopher Bennett
)
)
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Dan Dugan [mailto:dan dandugan.com]
) Sent: Wednesday, 23 July 2003 2:54 PM
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: local paper's report: The Independent
)
)
) Indnews.com: The Independent Online 7/23/03
)
) Teacher's discipline called "inappropriate"
)
) By:RICHARD ROTH 07/22/2003
)
) HARLEMVILLE--At least seven families have withdrawn their children
) from Hawthorne Valley School because of "inappropriate" disciplinary
) measures by a second-grade teacher.
) The school has issued a statement acknowledging a
) "disciplinary error" and says steps have been taken to insure that
) the errors will not be repeated. The teacher, Claire McConnell, is
) accused of strapping a student to a chair, taping a student's mouth
) shut, and tying another student's hands behind his back.
) Corrective steps include training seminars, individual
) coaching, teaching support in the classroom, and "frequent check-in
) points with the Council of Teachers and the Teacher Development
) Committee."
) Even so, some parents are not convinced that the school is
) taking the problem seriously.
) "Our son was the recipient of what I consider some really
) inappropriate behavior," said Mary Ann Davis, whose son had his mouth
) taped shut.
) Ms. Davis confronted Ms. McConnell when she found out about
) the incident, and she says both the teacher and her son made it sound
) like a joke. "Since then," she said, "I've found out that it's a
) tactic this teacher takes."
) Ms. McConnell is alleged to have strapped a girl to a chair
) last year, and a boy in this year's class had his hands tied behind
) his back. The prominence of her father, Senator Mitch McConnell
) (R-KY), the incidents have drawn national attention.
) Bob Wohlfeld, who hosts a morning talk show on WPYX-FM in
) Albany, said he and his wife wanted to write off the strapping
) incident "as a stupid mistake" when it came to their attention last
) year.
) "[Ms. McConnell] promised it would never happen again," he
) said. "Then the boy's hands were tied this year, and we felt the
) school's response was totally inadequate. A bunch of parents got
) together and talked about it on numerous occasions. We felt we
) couldn't put our children back in a classroom were there was
) emotional harm."
) In order to closely follow individual development, teachers at
) the school are assigned the same class from kindergarten through
) eighth grade. Because the teacher moves up through the grades along
) with her students, the students who were in Ms. McConnell's class
) this year will continue to be taught by her next year.
) Mr. Wohlfeld moved to Columbia County from Saratoga Springs
) and Ms. Davis, from New York City. Both came to the area specifically
) to enroll their children at the school. "The first thing we did was
) to get acceptance from Hawthorne Valley, before putting a deposit on
) a house," Ms. Davis said.
) Hawthorne Valley is certified by the Association of Waldorf
) Schools of North America. The schools base their teaching methods on
) the ideas of Austrian philosopher/educator Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925).
) The arts play a large part in the curriculum, and Ms.
) McConnell holds the degree of Bachelor of Fine Arts from Smith
) College.
) "The education is very profound," said Dr. Joel Goldstein of
) Hillsdale, both of whose sons attended Hawthorne Valley. "The kids
) are talented and well-rounded when they get out."
) He said his younger son had "no trouble" attaining membership
) in the National Honor Society when he chose to finish his senior year
) at Taconic Hills.
) There are distinct differences in the educational methods.
) Because Waldorf schools do not teach reading until third grade, Ms.
) Davis has hired a reading tutor to prepare her son for enrollment in
) the Chatham school district next fall.
) Some parents, Leslie Gabriel of Hillsdale for example, were
) not upset by the allegations. Mr. Gabriel has a daughter in Ms.
) McConnell's class and he said he has no plans to move her to another
) school.
) "I wasn't in the classroom and I haven't made a judgment," he
) said. "I think what the school is attempting to do is to support the
) teacher. [My daughter] did say some stuff happened but it wasn't like
) she didn't want to go to school."
) All the parents involved spoke highly of Waldorf education in
) general. "One of the disappointment is that this is casting a shadow
) on a very positive movement," said Ms. Davis.
) Bruce Frishkoff, Hawthorne Valley's Director of Guidance, said
) Waldorf schools are certified every five years by the Association of
) Waldorf Schools of North America. A more intensive review is
) undertaken every ten years, and Hawthorne Valley passed the ten- year
) review approximately two years ago.
) The school was established in 1973. There were 315 students
) enrolled in grades K through 12 last year.
) Beyond issuing a statement about corrective steps, the school
) declined further comment on the matter.
)
) ©The Independent 2003
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:00:35 -0400
From: "Owen Appraisal" (owenapp suscom-maine.net)
Subject: Re: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
----- Original Message -----
From: "Diana Winters" (Diana.Winters verizon.net)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 10:52 PM
Subject: RE: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
The message
) students would take away from your staged scenario seems to be that when
) a teacher is accused, the teacher's version of events will prevail.
) Diana
Which is exactly what happened in our son's class, to the degree that the
teacher would scream at the entire class (throw things as well) until the
majority went along with the teacher's version of the events. Those that
didn't, the ones who were actually willing to continue to stand up for their
peers, were isolated & ostracized. Jane
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
)
)
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:07:36 0000 (UTC)
From: momof2gals mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Re: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
Waldorfians are experts, seemingly, at ostracizing and isolating
those individuals and families they consider "troublesome."
It's a "divide and conquer" mentality. They do it very well.
Lisa
-------Original Message-------
From: Owen Appraisal (owenapp suscom-maine.net)
Sent: 07/23/03 02:00 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
)
)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Diana Winters" (Diana.Winters verizon.net)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 10:52 PM
Subject: RE: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
The message
) students would take away from your staged scenario seems to be that when
) a teacher is accused, the teacher's version of events will prevail.
) Diana
Which is exactly what happened in our son's class, to the degree that the
teacher would scream at the entire class (throw things as well) until the
majority went along with the teacher's version of the events. Those that
didn't, the ones who were actually willing to continue to stand up for
their
peers, were isolated & ostracized. Jane
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
basic.
New threads are always welcome.
)
)
)
)
)
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:37:04 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Teacher accused of having sex with teen
Teacher accused of having sex with teen
By Brian D. Crecente, Rocky Mountain News
July 23, 2003
A Denver physical education teacher was arrested Tuesday for allegedly
having sex with a 16-year-old student.
Robert C. Drake, 25, was arrested for investigation of sexual assault on
a child by a person in a position of trust.
Drake had worked at The Denver Waldorf School, 735 E. Florida Ave., for
two years as a gym teacher and the school's sport's director, said Judy
Lucas, enrollment director for the school. He resigned from the school
Monday.
The school notified police Monday after hearing that Drake had sex with
a 16-year-old student in April.
"We reported it to police and it is a police matter and we don't wish to
disclose anything that might conflict with their investigation," Lucas
said. "We contacted them as soon as we heard about it."
She added that it appears the incident was an isolated case and that no
other students were affected or at risk.
The school plans to send out letters to parents to address their
concerns, she said.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:31:00 -0300
From: "Frank Thomas Smith" (franksmith vdolores.com.ar)
Subject: RE: Accountability, efficacy, assessment and Waldorf: oxymoron?
) Frank wrote:
) Now to your
) ) question: I already admitted that it is a problem. However, when it is
) done
) ) correctly, the new teacher begins as an assistant to an experienced
) teacher
) ) for at least a year. Then, when he/she takes her own class - when deemed
) ) ready and qualified by the experienced teacher - another experienced
) teacher
) ) observes her classes for a while and sporadically, not to control, but
to
) be
) ) able to offer advice and assistance, although an element of control is
) ) inevitable.
Jeanine:
) So, it sounds like you would rely on the experienced teacher, through
) initial and then sporadic monitoring, to evaluate a new teacher's
readiness
) and suitability to handle a class for 8 years? As you know anyone who is
) being observed behaves differently then they would unobserved, especially
if
) the observation's purpose is to evaluate. Would recommend any other
methods
) to assess a teacher's competence?
I think you snipped my mail, where I said that new teachers are often (I say
often because I can't speak for all schools as I don't know what they all
do. There is no central Waldorf Ministry of Education to dictate what
schools must do.) broken in by acting as an assistant to an experienced
teacher for at least a year before taking a class.
How do you know if all of your students are being served?
How does any school know that? Do you mean report cards? If so, these are
weapons that teachers use to intimidate pupils. "If you don't learn this
well enough to pass the test, you'll get a D or F", - thereby making the
test the ultimate goal of education - instead of making the class so
interesting that they *want* to learn.
How does one determine whether a teacher is conveying the Waldorf curriculum
adequately?
A basic concept is that the teacher should use her own initiative,
imagination and capabilities. The Waldorf curriculum should serve only as a
general guideline. So if a teacher says the curriculum says do this or that,
but I don't think that's the right thing for this particular group, who
knows better - the teacher who knows the children intimately, or someone
else?
How do you discover which children may be lost, falling behind, or simply
not getting anything out of the Waldorf model?
This is the responsibility of the teacher. However, situations such as you
mention should be discussed in the teachers' meetings. If a child is falling
behind, he should be helped of course, but not left back as is the norm in
other schools, with the psychological damage this often causes.
These questions become more important in Waldorf since there are no forms of
student assessment in the early grades beyond the subjective musings of the
teacher.
By "subjective musings", I assume you mean the detailed report to parents on
each child's development, objective as well as subjective, and not only the
intellectual development. If you prefer A,B,C,D or F - you view of education
is light years away from ours.
Nor can parents volunteer during main lesson.
I don't know what you mean by this. Volunteer for what?
And since main lesson books are copied almost rote from teacher's example
on the board what do they truly reveal other than a child's ability to
imitate?
This is done in order to avoid the junk texts issued by the Bored of
Education.
) Other than the mentor sitting at the back of the room, what other methods
) can be used to assess a teacher's competence when no adults are watching?
Well, the mentor is an adult - but if you are referring back to parents in
the classroom, I know of no prohibition on this. In fact, often new teachers
come from the ranks of parents. In my experience, interested parents (one at
a time) may observe classes. New children in kindergarten are often
accompanied by mothers until they feel secure.
)
) In my classes in the seminar, I use play acting for group
) ) devlopment: a teacher is accused of striking a child, for example. She
) ) denies it. The group must find out what actually happened and make the
) ) proper decision. I am all the witnesses: parents, accused teacher, etc.
) (if
) ) they call the child as witness, it's a mistake. I, as the child, burst
out
) ) crying and the affair becomes more confused than ever. Most groups
realize
) ) this and don't call the child.) They think at the beginning that they
will
) ) find out that the accusation is false, but upon investigation they find
) that
) ) it is true and fire the teacher.
)
) You said "all of the witnesses: parents, teacher" From our experience and
) what I understand from other parnets it is rare for parents to be present
) during main lesson. If you have no parent witnesses, what then? Are the
) non-victimized children interviewed?
Please remember that I was describing a play-acting exercise. It is up to
the group to decide which witnesses they call. The parent as "witness" is
called because the child would have told her what happened. And yes, other
children present could well be interviewed. I only think it's not a good
idea (in a real situation) to call a young subject child before a group of
teachers for what could be felt as a kind of inquisition. That child could
and should, however, be interviewed by one or at most two members of the
teachers' group. I left that out, sorry.
)
) Isn't it commonly understood Frank that teachers are learning along with
) their students? That, ideally, they are only a few weeks ahead of the
) subject matter? That they are also on a journey of spiritual development
) and are to learn as much from their students about themselves as they are
to
) instruct? How does Waldorf determine when a teacher is a poor student? Or
) when a teacher is not "keeping up" with their class? If the model assumes
) mutual education, then there must be some way to assess a teacher's
) progress, no?
If I haven't answered to your satisfaction, what do you suggest?
Frank
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 09:10:07 +1000
From: "Bennett, Christopher" (christopher.bennett cgey.com)
Subject: RE: local paper's report: The Independent
No that is not what I implied at all.
Firstly Mad Dan did censor the article by drawing strong attention to the
part he wanted everybody to read and ignored the balanced bought later on in
the piece. Censorship can come in many ways and be inclusive as well as
exclusive - think about it.
Secondly the remainder of your rabid response does nothing to emphasis what
is really wrong with these schools - that they tend to teach fantasy as fact
and ignore large amounts of contempory learning. All schools have problems
with teachers not always caring properly for students. Unfortunately this is
usually because we live in a society that values entertainment more than
education and therefore under-supports the whole education system. The main
movers on this web site seem to always draw a cause and effect from the
Waldorf aspect for behaviours that are common across all of the education
system. Pretty shallow arguments really. I could find many more stories of
child abuse, neglect, etc in other schools than have ever appeared here. By
just drawing attention to the Waldorf examples and ignoring huge problems
elsewhere you are censoring information by providing an unbalanced view.
What about the Catholic education and the history of abuse that has occurred
there?
Me? I don't support the Steiner movement. I follow this because I don't want
my children going to a Waldorf schools even though my wife does. I thought I
might learn something by following the posts. Unfortunately that has not
happened because most people who post here are more interested in
"twittering" to salve their own consciences and egos than advancing logical
arguments against seemingly inadequate schooling.
Christopher Bennett
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Winters [mailto:Diana.Winters verizon.net]
Sent: Wednesday, 23 July 2003 9:32 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: RE: local paper's report: The Independent
Christopher Bennett wrote:
"A parent was quoted in the same article saying:
'One of the disappointment is that this is casting a shadow
on a very positive movement,'
Selective censorship does not strengthen your argument against these
schools....."
What do you mean? Dan did not censor it. The entire article appeared
including the quote above.
Oddly you seem to think that the parents' continuing loyalty to a
school that refuses to protect their children, by firing an abusive
teacher, reflects well on Waldorf overall. I think the opposite. In a
healthy community a person who attacked the youngest and most vulnerable
would be immediately barred from further contact with them. This is what
the parents should insist on if they want to help the school recover its
reputation and help the movement look "positive." The reaction of the
parents who remain at the school - at least many who have been quoted -
makes the community appear extremely insular and deluded.
Diana
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 09:11:20 +1000
From: "Bennett, Christopher" (christopher.bennett cgey.com)
Subject: RE: Teacher accused of having sex with teen
Whats your point? This happens at other schools as well. It is the person
not the system that is at fault
Christopher Bennett
-----Original Message-----
From: Debra Snell [mailto:snell gv.net]
Sent: Thursday, 24 July 2003 2:37 AM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Teacher accused of having sex with teen
Teacher accused of having sex with teen
By Brian D. Crecente, Rocky Mountain News
July 23, 2003
A Denver physical education teacher was arrested Tuesday for allegedly
having sex with a 16-year-old student.
Robert C. Drake, 25, was arrested for investigation of sexual assault on
a child by a person in a position of trust.
Drake had worked at The Denver Waldorf School, 735 E. Florida Ave., for
two years as a gym teacher and the school's sport's director, said Judy
Lucas, enrollment director for the school. He resigned from the school
Monday.
The school notified police Monday after hearing that Drake had sex with
a 16-year-old student in April.
"We reported it to police and it is a police matter and we don't wish to
disclose anything that might conflict with their investigation," Lucas
said. "We contacted them as soon as we heard about it."
She added that it appears the incident was an isolated case and that no
other students were affected or at risk.
The school plans to send out letters to parents to address their
concerns, she said.
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:32:49 +0200
From: "Lennart Sundstr=?ISO-8859-1?B?9g==?=m" (gbg2013 minpost.nu)
Subject: SV: Teacher accused of having sex with teen
Hi folks,
Debra wrote or qouted:
)
) Teacher accused of having sex with teen
Hm. I have missed that oppurtunity. Well, I have been working together with
the juicy fruits of human beings for 11 years now. Been married all the
time. And my right hand knows how to keep the prostata cancer away, when my
wife is away, if you know what I mean.
And or but or whatever ... I have never explicity learned in my Steiner
teacher training how to handle sexual impulses visavi the students. Maybe
that is a shame and worthy of being criticized. Anyway, I have not seen any
special trend in the waldorf schools of teachers having sex with their
students. Maybe this is a more or less unique case? Or what are you implying
Debra?
And by the way, I am not a catholic, whatever that is of any value to know.
Love to you all,
Lennart Sundstr–m
G–teborg
Sweden
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 01:37:40 +0200
From: "Lennart Sundstr=?ISO-8859-1?B?9g==?=m" (gbg2013 minpost.nu)
Subject: SV: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
) DETTA MEDDELANDE ÄR I MIME-FORMAT. På grund av att din e-postläsare
inte förstår
detta format, kommer hela eller delar av detta meddelande inte att
vara läsbart.
--MS_Mac_OE_3141855460_1796919_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Hello Diana,
I gather you wrote:
"As you are well aware, parents are rarely present during main lesson, and
in any event a teacher is very unlikely to hit a child with a parent
present."
When I was 23 years old I was working as a teacher within a group of so
called retarded children in the ages of 9 to 12. One of the pupils, Tom, was
very obnoxious and I lost my temper and I slapped him in the face. The same
evening his father called me and told me in an angry voice: - Don¥t you
ever hit my son again!
Well, I most deeply regretted what I had done. And as a result of that
phonecall, and a lot of other things, I kind of matured as a human being,
and later on, as a waldorf teacher, I still carry that insight: never hurt
any kid however justified you for the moment think you are.
Diana, what do you make of that?
Somehow, the parents are present, hopefully, within or without the waldorf
education.
Best of all,
Lennart
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 02:02:42 +0200
From: "Lennart Sundstr=?ISO-8859-1?B?9g==?=m" (gbg2013 minpost.nu)
Subject: SV: local paper's report: The Independent
Hi Christopfer,
you wrote:
) Me? I don't support the Steiner movement. I follow this because I don't want
) my children going to a Waldorf schools even though my wife does. I thought I
) might learn something by following the posts. Unfortunately that has not
) happened because most people who post here are more interested in
) "twittering" to salve their own consciences and egos than advancing logical
) arguments against seemingly inadequate schooling.
)
) Christopher Bennett
I think the WC-list is one of the best evaluationfora of the waldorfschools
on the net for a lot of reasons. One is, I want to "salve" my ego, but I
don¥t want to do it in a illogical way. My kids have attended waldorf
schools and they don¥t think their education have been inadequate, quite the
contrary. So, maybe I have missed something, where do you miss the logic?
Hope to hear from you, and send my love to your wife,
Lennart
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 02:53:54 +0200
From: "Lennart Sundstr=?ISO-8859-1?B?9g==?=m" (gbg2013 minpost.nu)
Subject: SV: Accountability, efficacy, assessment and Waldorf: oxymoron?
Hi Frank,
you wrote among a lot of other things:
) A basic concept is that the teacher should use her own initiative,
) imagination and capabilities. The Waldorf curriculum should serve only as a
) general guideline. So if a teacher says the curriculum says do this or that,
) but I don't think that's the right thing for this particular group, who
) knows better - the teacher who knows the children intimately, or someone
) else?
Well, I think you have touched the beauty, the strength as well as the
weakness of the whole thing. As a parent I wanted a creative and unique
teacher for my children, one who dared to follow her own guidelines and one
who intimately could love, know and share her "secret" knowledge of my
children. The precious pearls of love, children, has to stay for ever. The
eternal I in multitude. Well, I wanted, and I still sincerely want, that in
freedom born creative attitude to be a guideline to all teachers whatever
individual color.
But when the waldorf curriculum turns into selfinduced, or groupinduced,
dictates than the whole thing might as well be buried. And I will be the
first shovelling the best I can. A lot of the rightfully posed criticisms on
this lists against practical waldorf schooling may be an effect of teachers
uncritical admiration of Steiner and the simple
ein-zwei-drei-let-us-all-be-frei-mentality. Well, life is more complex than
a simple formula.
See you,
Lenny
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:56:39 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: local paper's report: The Independent
Christopher:
"Firstly Mad Dan did censor the article by drawing strong attention to
the
part he wanted everybody to read and ignored the balanced bought later
on in
the piece. Censorship can come in many ways and be inclusive as well as
exclusive - think about it."
You are simply mistaken. It is not "censorship" when the entire article,
word for word, is posted. Each of us has commented on parts of the
article we found noteworthy; you can do the same. There's no need to
call people names or raise silly, false accusations. Censorship really
does not come in many ways. Or if it does, this is a tad too subtle for
me I guess. The text is either all there or it is not. The article was
not censored.
I wonder if the "forgery" accusations have made people feel freer to
make careless accusations. (I was once accused here of "abusing" a text.
The anthroposophist who made this accusation did not dispute that I had
quoted it accurately. He just didn't like my comments on the text. He
felt if I wasn't going to say something nice about it, I had no right to
quote it or discuss it, that was "abuse.") Now it is "censorship" when
someone hasn't discussed the part you were interested in?
My point, which I believe was a substantive one and not at all "rabid,"
is that the parents' glowing praise of a school that has hurt their
children does *not* make the movement look good. It doesn't "balance"
the negative things that happened at that school, it makes it appear to
be more than one disturbed teacher, but a truly sick community.
"Secondly the remainder of your rabid response does nothing to emphasis
what
is really wrong with these schools - that they tend to teach fantasy as
fact
and ignore large amounts of contempory learning."
No, you're right, my post was not about other things that are wrong with
these schools, my post was about the article about Hawthorne Valley.
There's no need to be rude. If you want to talk about these other
issues, like fantasy vs. fact in Waldorf, this is the place to do it.
There is a wealth of information, pro and con, on the website and in the
archives here. There's no need to berate other posters for not
addressing *right now* the topics of most interest to you.
Perhaps if you yourself narrowed down what you'd like to talk about,
you'd have an easier time getting a conversation going. Lowering the
hostility level might help too. "Censorship" is a ridiculous
inflammatory term which you later seem to be using as a general
complaint that we aren't talking about the Catholic church here as well
as Waldorf. Good Lord. Shall we try to solve every problem in the world
tonight?
"All schools have problems with teachers not always caring properly for
students. Unfortunately this is usually because we live in a society
that values entertainment more than education and therefore
under-supports the whole education system. The main movers on this web
site seem to always draw a cause and effect from the Waldorf aspect for
behaviours that are common across all of the education system. Pretty
shallow arguments really. I could find many more stories of child abuse,
neglect, etc in other schools than have ever appeared here. By just
drawing attention to the Waldorf examples and ignoring huge problems
elsewhere you are censoring information by providing an unbalanced view.
What about the Catholic education and the history of abuse that has
occurred there?
"Me? I don't support the Steiner movement. I follow this because I don't
want my children going to a Waldorf schools even though my wife does. I
thought I might learn something by following the posts. Unfortunately
that has not happened because most people who post here are more
interested in
"twittering" to salve their own consciences and egos than advancing
logical
arguments against seemingly inadequate schooling."
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Winters [mailto:Diana.Winters verizon.net]
Sent: Wednesday, 23 July 2003 9:32 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: RE: local paper's report: The Independent
Christopher Bennett wrote:
"A parent was quoted in the same article saying:
'One of the disappointment is that this is casting a shadow
on a very positive movement,'
Selective censorship does not strengthen your argument against these
schools....."
What do you mean? Dan did not censor it. The entire article appeared
including the quote above.
Oddly you seem to think that the parents' continuing loyalty to a
school that refuses to protect their children, by firing an abusive
teacher, reflects well on Waldorf overall. I think the opposite. In a
healthy community a person who attacked the youngest and most vulnerable
would be immediately barred from further contact with them. This is what
the parents should insist on if they want to help the school recover its
reputation and help the movement look "positive." The reaction of the
parents who remain at the school - at least many who have been quoted -
makes the community appear extremely insular and deluded.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 23:12:13 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: SV: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
On Wednesday, July 23, 2003, at 04:37 PM, Lennart Sundstr–m wrote:
) Hello Diana,
)
) I gather you wrote:
)
) "As you are well aware, parents are rarely present during main lesson,
) and in any event a teacher is very unlikely to hit a child with a
) parent present."
)
) When I was 23 years old I was working as a teacher İwithin a group of
) so called retarded children in the ages of 9 to 12. One of the pupils,
) Tom, was very obnoxious and I lost my temper and I slapped him in the
) face. The same evening his father called me and told me in an angry
) voice: İ- Don¥t you ever hit my son again!
)
) Well, İI most deeply regretted what I had done. And as a result of that
) phonecall, and a lot of other things, I kind of matured as a human
) being, and later on, as a waldorf teacher, I still carry that insight:
) never hurt any kid however justified you for the moment think you are.
)
) Diana, what do you make of that?
)
) Somehow, the parents are present, hopefully, within or without the
) waldorf education.
) Best of all,
) Lennart
)
Debra:
This brings up more questions for me, but first I'd like to say how
brave I think you are to have used your very personal example, and I
don't mean any harm to you when I say the following. I worked with
disabled adults for over 13 years. While there were many intense issues
my staff dealt with, a sense of humor was first on the list of
qualifications to get hired. . . I can't imagine hiring anyone who took
the behavior of a disabled child so personal that slapping was the
option exercised. I tried (successfully, thank goodness) to prevent
incidents by avoiding certain personality traits that could possibly
snap. . .
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:03:28 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: local paper's report: The Independent
Christopher Bennett, you wrote,
)The main
)movers on this web site seem to always draw a cause and effect from the
)Waldorf aspect for behaviours that are common across all of the education
)system. Pretty shallow arguments really. I could find many more stories of
)child abuse, neglect, etc in other schools than have ever appeared here. By
)just drawing attention to the Waldorf examples and ignoring huge problems
)elsewhere you are censoring information by providing an unbalanced view.
)What about the Catholic education and the history of abuse that has occurred
)there?
I don't think you, or anyone, has knowledge of how the rate of child
abuse incidents in Waldorf schools compares with other schools. No
one has studied it, and besides, such incidents are almost always
covered up.
When a public school teacher is accused of an abusive act, immediate
legal steps are taken and public records are created. It's quite
clear to us at PLANS, we who have been listening to horror stories
for years, that it is the standard practice at most Waldorf schools
for the faculty to come together in defense of an accused teacher, to
deny the credibility of the complainers, and to cover up the incident
from the authorities.
It's appropriate you should mention the Catholic Church. Waldorf has
a problem just like the Catholic problem: in Waldorf it's customary
for abusers to be protected and passed on to further employment with
schools that have no idea of the teacher's previous abusive behavior.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:04:05 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: local paper's report: The
Independent]
Christopher Bennett, I'm pleased to have a new voice in the
discussion, but you can only participate if you do so in a civil
manner. You wrote:
)most people who post here are more interested in
)"twittering" to salve their own consciences and egos than advancing logical
)arguments against seemingly inadequate schooling.
This is an ad hominem argument; you're attacking the other
correspondents, not their ideas. This is not allowed here.
-Dan Dugan
Moderator
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:24:05 -0700
From: "NJS" (oscar001 earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: local paper's report: The Independent
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C35179.E3C5F580
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Christopher Bennet wrote:
) No that is not what I implied at all.
)
) Firstly Mad Dan did censor the article by drawing strong attention to the
) part he wanted everybody to read and ignored the balanced bought later on in
) the piece. Censorship can come in many ways and be inclusive as well as
) exclusive - think about it.
Main Entry: 1cen…sor
Pronunciation: 'sen(t)-s&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin, from censEre to give as one's opinion, assess;
perhaps akin to Sanskrit samsati he praises
Date: 1531
1 : one of two magistrates of early Rome acting as census takers,
assessors, and inspectors of morals and conduct
2 : one who supervises conduct and morals: as a : an official who
examines materials (as publications or films) for objectionable
matter b : an official (as in time of war) who reads communications
(as letters) and deletes material considered sensitive or harmful
3 : a hypothetical psychic agency that represses unacceptable notions
before they reach consciousness
I don't see where Dan inspected moral conduct, supervised conduct or
morals, examined or deleted material for objectionable content, or
repressed unacceptable notions.
) Secondly the remainder of your rabid response does nothing to emphasis what
) is really wrong with these schools - that they tend to teach fantasy as fact
) and ignore large amounts of contempory learning. All schools have problems
) with teachers not always caring properly for students. Unfortunately this is
) usually because we live in a society that values entertainment more than
) education and therefore under-supports the whole education system. The main
) movers on this web site seem to always draw a cause and effect from the
) Waldorf aspect for behaviours that are common across all of the education
) system.
In our experience across 8 private schools and 2 public we have never
encountered teachers who scream at students or deceive parents about
their philosophical/religious agenda. Perhaps we were lucky. It
sounds like you may have not been reading this list for very long. I
have for over a year in conjunction with survivors and open waldorf,
not a long time, but enough to find eerie similarities in parents
horror stories in Waldorf schools. Common themes? Deception toward
parents, yelling at students, degrading them publicly, out of control
playgrounds, circle the wagons when reasonable questions are asked,
lack of accountabililty, pushing of anthroposophical medicine, and
others that I can't recall off the top of my head. Your argument
that Waldorf's problems are common across the whole educational
system is debatable, it has not been our experience, and they key
difference: most other educational systems have to answer to some
outside constituent instead of an inbred college of teachers.
Pretty shallow arguments really. I could find many more stories of
) child abuse, neglect, etc in other schools than have ever appeared here. By
) just drawing attention to the Waldorf examples and ignoring huge problems
) elsewhere you are censoring information by providing an unbalanced view.
Um, this list is called "Waldorf Critics."
) What about the Catholic education and the history of abuse that has occurred
) there?
May I recommend: Catholic Education Discussion List:
http://www.cyberfaith.com/mail_list_subscribe_education.html
) Me? I don't support the Steiner movement. I follow this because I don't want
) my children going to a Waldorf schools even though my wife does. I thought I
) might learn something by following the posts. Unfortunately that has not
) happened because most people who post here are more interested in
) "twittering" to salve their own consciences and egos than advancing logical
) arguments against seemingly inadequate schooling.
Christopher, these lists are dynamic and one must take a long term
view to truly get their flavor. If you've only been reading a few
months, and have not searched the archives, you probably haven't had
sufficient time to view the many in depth discussions. Sadly, the
typical pattern I've seen is for anthroposophists or Waldorf
supporters to pop in now and then, argue for a couple of days, and
then depart when the questions get pointed. This occurs at Waldorf
schools as well, but since they can't dissappear they simply try
their best to make the questioner dissappear. But if you follow
along for awhile you will start to see definite patterns appear that
suggest systemic problems with the Waldorf approach, for instance,
the deception that parents experience is common. Most Catholic
schools are quite proud of their beliefs and make no attempt to mask
their values.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 02:58:58 -0700
From: "NJS" (oscar001 earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Accountability, efficacy, assessment and Waldorf: oxymoron?
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) ) Frank wrote:
) I think you snipped my mail, where I said that new teachers are often (I say
) often because I can't speak for all schools as I don't know what they all
) do. There is no central Waldorf Ministry of Education to dictate what
) schools must do.) broken in by acting as an assistant to an experienced
) teacher for at least a year before taking a class.
No, didn't snip that part, it's there in my reply. Frank, what role
does AWSNA play realtive to a "Waldorf Ministry of Education"?
) How do you know if all of your students are being served?
)
) How does any school know that? Do you mean report cards? If so, these are
) weapons that teachers use to intimidate pupils. "If you don't learn this
) well enough to pass the test, you'll get a D or F", - thereby making the
) test the ultimate goal of education - instead of making the class so
) interesting that they *want* to learn.
Well, where do I begin? Public schools in the U.S., at least the one
I"m associated with, have several methods to assess whether a student
is being served. Homework (allows parents a "view" into the
curriculum so that they can evaluate their own child's ability to
master the material), in class parent volunteers (also allowing this
view into the curriculum and now the classroom dynamic, how well the
teacher handles the kids, whether your child is working or horsing
around, how they are doing socially, etc.), tests (yes, evil tests,
that can be standardized and thus provide one measurement of where
your child sits on the continuum), specialists (our school has a
multitude of specialists from reading, science, art, music, etc. who
all provide a view into your child), report cards (ours are a
combinations of grades and comments), teacher conferences, and study
teams (when a child is struggling a team is assembled of the parents,
teacher, specialists, principal, tutors, etc. to decide the best
strategy for reaching a child).
In Waldorf I had the lovely, hand written report that made analogies
of my child to various animal forms, discussed her energy, behavior,
and temperament. All very interesting, but they forgot to mention
she wasn't learning anything.
) How does one determine whether a teacher is conveying the Waldorf curriculum
) adequately?
)
) A basic concept is that the teacher should use her own initiative,
) imagination and capabilities. The Waldorf curriculum should serve only as a
) general guideline. So if a teacher says the curriculum says do this or that,
) but I don't think that's the right thing for this particular group, who
) knows better - the teacher who knows the children intimately, or someone
) else?
You seem to be thinking that I am asking how to determine whether a
teacher is "implementing" the curriculum; my question actually had to
do with how you decide whether a teacher is able to "convey" the
curriculum to the students. In other words, how do you know whether
the students are getting it? In the end, Frank, isn't this call made
solely by the Waldorf teacher? And, Frank, don't teachers have a
vested interest in portraying a child as having a problem learning
rather than themselves a problem teaching? It's a question of checks
and balances, and Waldorf has none. If you get a good teacher that
you can trust great, if not, good luck.
) These questions become more important in Waldorf since there are no forms of
) student assessment in the early grades beyond the subjective musings of the
) teacher.
)
) By "subjective musings", I assume you mean the detailed report to parents on
) each child's development, objective as well as subjective, and not only the
) intellectual development. If you prefer A,B,C,D or F - you view of education
) is light years away from ours.
How does Waldorf give objective assessments in the early grades?
Everything we received was entirely subjective. No, don't prefer A,
B, or C, teacher conferences help round those out, as does
volunteering in class, homework, etc.
)
) Nor can parents volunteer during main lesson.
)
) I don't know what you mean by this. Volunteer for what?
Well, I"ll give you an example. Our class had a job in which parents
came into the class to clean art materials, but this had to be done
afterschool. There were other jobs like this but parents were
generally banned from main lesson. If I can't see my child's teacher
in action it makes me very uncomfortable, especially when children
are young and are so uninterested in providing classroom details to
their parents. From what I've read this is a common practice at
Waldorf, if so, parents should be informed in advance.
) And since main lesson books are copied almost rote from teacher's example
) on the board what do they truly reveal other than a child's ability to
) imitate?
)
) This is done in order to avoid the junk texts issued by the Bored of
) Education.
Is that really the reason Frank? It has nothing to do with the
importance of imitation in Steiner's view? Or his notion that
children younger than 14 do not have the capability for abstract
thought?
"Ron Miller, founder of (put in italics) Holistic Education Review is
also a satisfied parent of a Waldorf student. Nonethless, he wonders
in AWSNA's Renewal "whether [Waldorf teachers] could nourish him even
more by not choreographing his every move and expecting quite so much
imitation and recitation." A Waldorf teacher, he notes, is "solidly
in command of students' attention, moment after moment, after moment;
children have little opportunity to engage in independent activites
or conversations; younger children, in particular are not encouraged
to question the teacher but to imitate what he or she models."
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/ArticleMaryPetrie.html
"Rudolf Steiner's passionate concern was that children before second
dentition should be busy building strong, healthy bodies and not
using immature intellectual faculties which cause them to draw upon
their precious supplies of calendar energy, properly reserved for
later." http://www.waldorflibrary.org/Journal_Articles/GW3602.pdf
) ) Other than the mentor sitting at the back of the room, what other methods
) ) can be used to assess a teacher's competence when no adults are watching?
)
) Well, the mentor is an adult - but if you are referring back to parents in
) the classroom, I know of no prohibition on this. In fact, often new teachers
) come from the ranks of parents. In my experience, interested parents (one at
) a time) may observe classes. New children in kindergarten are often
) accompanied by mothers until they feel secure.
This prohibition often goes unstated, until a parent keeps discovers
all the volunteer opportunities are outside the classroom. Or during
specialty teacher time. Perhaps this differs by country? What I am
trying to suggest is that methods for assessing teacher competence
are weak by design, since the primary focus of Waldorf education is
spiritual development the need for academic progress to be monitored
is secondary. Instead the focus is on the temperature of a child's
hands, or how much sleep they're getting for cosmic travel. It keeps
everything nice and squishy.
) ) Isn't it commonly understood Frank that teachers are learning along with
) ) their students? That, ideally, they are only a few weeks ahead of the
) ) subject matter? That they are also on a journey of spiritual development
) ) and are to learn as much from their students about themselves as they are
) to
) ) instruct? How does Waldorf determine when a teacher is a poor student? Or
) ) when a teacher is not "keeping up" with their class? If the model assumes
) ) mutual education, then there must be some way to assess a teacher's
) ) progress, no?
)
) If I haven't answered to your satisfaction, what do you suggest?
) Frank
I'm just curious how this mutual striving thing works, that's all.
"According to Rudolf Steiner in the Pedagogical Youth Course, whoever
is unable to learn from the child what she brings down as a messenger
from higher worlds will not be able to offer or teach the child
anything about the conditions of earth existence. Only when we accept
the child as a teacher, bringing new impulses, can we open the door
for the child's understanding of the riddles of earth's existence, of
understanding the earth itself".
http://www.waldorflibrary.org/Journal_Articles/GW3503.pdf
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 09:26:04 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
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Lennart:
ìSomehow, the parents are present, hopefully, within or without the
waldorf education.î
Yes, I hope so. But you are speaking in a more general way ñ I was
responding to Frankís staged scenario in a class he teaches for Waldorf
trainees. Iím exhausted with the topic and donít want to rehash it.
Frank used the term ìwitnessî in a less than specific way anyway ñ turns
out he was referring to interviewing the parent of the child after the
fact ñ he wasnít apparently meaning the parent had actually been present
at the incident. That confused the description a bit.
îWhen I was 23 years old I was working as a teacher within a group of
so called retarded children in the ages of 9 to 12. One of the pupils,
Tom, was very obnoxious and I lost my temper and I slapped him in the
face. The same evening his father called me and told me in an angry
voice: - Don¥t you ever hit my son again!
Well, I most deeply regretted what I had done. And as a result of that
phonecall, and a lot of other things, I kind of matured as a human
being, and later on, as a waldorf teacher, I still carry that insight:
never hurt any kid however justified you for the moment think you are.
Diana, what do you make of that?î
I say good for you. Iím glad you learned and grew. We have all made
mistakes. Had I been your supervisor, Iíd have fired you. (And I, also,
worked with disabled people for several years and managed not to slap
anyone. Actually, I got slapped myself a few times and worse.)
Parents of special needs kids are in a tight spot. They have less
maneuverability in terms of getting the care and services their kids
need. They often donít have the luxury of pulling a child right out of a
program if there is any sign of trouble. I donít believe that is the
case at a school like Hawthorne Valley. If any teacher ever laid a
finger on my child, I would press charges, and my child would not spend
30 seconds longer in that class. That person would never be allowed near
my child again under any circumstances. (I mean, if anyone hit my *dog*
Iíd keep them away from my dog in the future . . .)
There are few jobs today where you can smack someone across the face and
expect you will keep the job. You would likely be quickly shown to the
door in any office or factory. Youíd be lucky if they didnít call the
police. It is only where children are concerned that we are still
supposed to make allowances. I am supposed to have sympathy for *you* in
the above story, rather than for the retarded boy whose face was
slapped. Right?
Iím sorry if that feels terribly harsh to you, as you were only 23 and
clearly very well intentioned and you may be an excellent, kind teacher
now for all I know. But when I hear the above story my interest is in
the boy who was slapped. Itís that simple. The people at the top
determine what is acceptable and what is not, and if there were zero
tolerance for smacking children and a long list of other physical
ìcorrectionsî ñ and if children were believed when they report it - the
small slaps and pinches, and worse, would stop happening FAST. For you
to continue in the job because you had ìmaturedî etc. allows others to
get away with the same and chalk it up to ìlearningî - exactly the
argument the Hawthorne Valley administration is now making about the
abusive teacher.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 09:57:47 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: The well-worn fallback position: Teacher incompetence
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I wrote:
"The people at the top determine what is acceptable and what is not"
This is not entirely complete - I was implying that it is up to the
administration whether corporal punishments are tolerated, but first and
foremost it is up to the PARENTS.
From all the signs, the abusive teacher at Hawthorne Valley still has
her position for '03-'04. What would change this? What could make a
difference? The administration is not willing to take a stand, so
apparently it is only the parents who have any power here. If they leave
in droves, as some have done but apparently not enough, the teacher will
get fired. (There won't be a class for her to teach.) If any of the
parents are reading this, consider that YOU as parents have the power to
determine whether it continues to be acceptable to abuse children at
this school. You may have to lose your dream of a beautiful holistic
community at this school but you CAN make sure children can no longer be
tied to chairs there. Bottom line! Children's safety before beautiful
holistic spiritual visions. If you think the movement is so valuable, do
it a favor and help it become known as a movement that will never
tolerate child abuse.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:39:13 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
Hi Frank,
)I recently read that masturbation is an excellent preventive for prostate
)cancer for men between 40 and 55. This scientific breakthrough comes too
)late for me (over 55) - perhaps Peter can benefit though.
)Frank
I've got a couple years left before I hit 40, but cancer or no cancer, I'm a
big fan of sexual pleasure, most definitely including the self-administered
variety. Since this seems so obvious to me, I've never understood why people
use terms like "wanker" or "intellectual masturbation" in a pejorative
sense; I can't help suspecting that these people have awfully dull sex
lives. Only someone who thinks that physical masturbation is a bad thing
could think that intellectual masturbation is a bad thing. If you don't like
playing with yourself, you're likely to think it's some sort of put-down to
say that other people play with themselves. Presumably that is what
Christopher had in mind.
It seems to me that the same goes for the notion of critique: People who
have little experience subjecting their own beliefs to criticism are often
appalled when others go to the trouble of doing so for them. But those of us
who are used to self-criticism (or, analogously, self-pleasure) find nothing
unusual in this exercise; indeed some of us see informed critique as a way
of paying due respect to another body of thought. Strangely, I have yet to
come across this attitude among anthroposophists and their admirers. That
fundamental difference may have something to do with the strikingly
different perspectives that you and I bring to historical questions, but
more on that in a moment.
)Also, I
)can't compete with you as far as research goes. My anthroposophical library
)is small, now, and I live on a mountain at the ass end of the world without
)access to reference materials.
I don't see how that's a response to the remark I made. In that message, I
didn't say anything about your access to either anthroposophical materials
or reference works, I said something about your general grasp of twentieth
century history and your understanding of fascism. But now that you've
raised the point, I will gladly reiterate the offer I have made many times
before: if you, or anybody else, would like a photocopy of any Steiner text
that I have quoted, in English or in German, I will mail it to you. You just
need to ask. In the several years that I have been on this list, not one
would-be defender of Steiner, Anthroposophy, or Waldorf has ever taken me up
on this offer. Perhaps you can see why that might make it hard for some of
us to take your complaints about "quotations out of context" seriously. If
you don't know what the context is, and aren't interested in finding out
what the context is, how exactly did you conclude that a given quote has
been taken out of its context in the first place? As much as I like talking
about sex, I'd be more interested in hearing your views on relevant
questions like this than your opinions on prostate cancer.
Yours for a good healthy wank,
Peter S.
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:58:02 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Frank's version of history
Hi again Frank, you wrote:
)No, I don't think it is a bad thing. I was referring to the kind of
)revisionism which has as its purpose the destruction of the reputations of
)historical personalities, while ignoring the evidence of their positive
)contributions. The examples you so kindly resucitated are, I think, fair
)examples.
If the examples you gave are representative of your general views on this
topic, it's no wonder you're horrified when historians point out Steiner's
racism and the pattern of collaboration between anthroposophists and Nazis.
You think we're out to destroy somebody's reputation. I'd like to politely
request that you consider adopting a more serious attitude toward historical
subjects. But while we're at it, let's take a look at your own chosen
examples of "revisionism":
"Oh, Jefferson had slaves, therefore he was a hypocrite with his "all men
are created equal" - Oh, Plato and Socrates were pedophiles, so don't
believe their philosophy - Oh, Goethe was a quack scientist because modern
science doesn't agree with him. -Oh, Shakespeare couldn't possibly have
written all that stuff, he didn't even finish high school. Oh, Jesus
probably didn't even exist, because there's no real evidence, etc."
The claims about Plato, Socrates, and Shakespeare are not instances of
historical revisionism, they are examples of flawed logic; they are obvious
non sequiturs. Can you point to any revisionist historians who have advanced
such arguments, or others like them? The claims about Goethe and Jesus, on
the other hand, are perfectly acceptable forms of historical analysis (even
though both claims are false, in my view), and they certainly do not serve
to destroy the reputations of the figures in question. Those sorts of
arguments can easily be countered with evidence and logic, and they may well
yield fruitful lines of inquiry that add to our knowledge of, understanding
of, and appreciation for Goethe or Jesus. The claim about Jefferson,
finally, is an excellent real-world example of revisionist history, and
demonstrates why this kind of history is crucially important to making sense
of the past and relating it to the present. If you believe that Jefferson's
slaveholding was *not* an egregious violation of his own public statements
on human equality, Frank, would you mind explaining why you believe that?
)Justification: from Flensburger Heft, 3/91, page 71:
I'm glad to see you're familiar with Flensburger Hefte, one of the more
perspicacious anthroposophical journals. I'd like to point out that your own
stated views (and not just on the 1922 incident) are often quite
incompatible with the extensive documentation on the history of
anthroposophy during the Third Reich that Flensburger Hefte have published
over the years. But let's look at your take on this one very interesting
event:
)"In 1922 an attack
)against Rudolf Steiner took place in the Vier Jahreszeiten Hotel during a
)lecture. An eye witness, the anthroposophist Emil Leinhas, reports on it in
)his book "Aus der Arbeit mit Rudolf Steiner".
)The attack "not completely unexpected by us, was carried out be a
)nationalist assault group (v–lkischen Stosstrupp). At the moment when
)Rudolf
)Steiner was speaking the last words of his lecture, the lights in the room
)went out and the attackers jumped onto the podium. Rudolf Steiner was just
)able to end his lecture. Because of our prepared defence that immediately
)went into action, especially the courageous intervention by some
)friends...,
)Rudolf Steiner was protected from rough maltreatment. He was then able,
)covered by friends, to escape through the back door of the hotel." (my
)translation)
)
)From this description, it would appear that I exaggerated when I said it
)was
)an attack on his life.
I suppose that's one way of putting it. For those of us who take history
seriously, calling a disrupted lecture an assassination attempt isn't just
exaggerated, it's completely inaccurate, as I pointed out to you last year.
Moreover, you originally said that "the proto-Nazis" were responsible for
this scuffle. That is also inaccurate, as I pointed out to you last year.
Here are two more anthroposophist accounts of the 1922 incident:
1. Guenther Wachsmuthís biography of Steiner: Wachsmuth writes that the 1922
altercation was an attempt by "a few hotheads, who had been confused by the
usual untrue propaganda of our opponents, to disrupt the lectures with
noise, turning out the lights, even personal threats to the speaker ó
methods which had become typical in that period of political chaos. It was
only because he was protected by brave friends, especially Dr. Noll and Dr.
B¸chenbacher, that Rudolf Steiner was kept safe from physical attack by
these nasty fellows at his Munich lecture on May 15." (Guenther Wachsmuth,
Rudolf Steiners Erdenleben und Wirken, Dornach 1964, p. 470) Wachsmuth says
nothing about an attempted assassination, and does not associate the "nasty
fellows" with the Nazis.
2. Uwe Werner's book on anthroposophists during the Nazi period: "On May 15,
1922, followers of Ludendorff planned to disrupt a lecture by Steiner in the
Munich hotel Vier Jahreszeiten and provoke a melee. But Munich
anthroposophists became aware of the plans beforehand and were able to
react. Steiner was able to finish his lecture, and only afterwards was there
a physical confrontation, in which the anthroposophists prevailed.î (Uwe
Werner, Anthroposophen in der Zeit des Nationalsozialismus, Munich 1999, p.
8) Werner makes no mention of an assassination attempt or of proto-Nazis.
As you can see from all three of these eminently anthroposophical sources,
there was no attempt on Steiner's life; and the v–lkisch ruffians who
disrupted Steiner's lecture were Ludendorffers, not proto-Nazis. At the time
of this incident, Hitler and Ludendorff were enemies, not allies; they were
rivals for the leadership of the Munich extreme right (and for that matter,
the Nazis and the Ludendorffers remained enemies throughout most of the
decade of the 1920's, not to mention the entirety of the Third Reich). That
might sound like hairsplitting to you, but it's actually crucial to
understanding this incident and its context -- as we can see from your own
conclusion:
)But that's not the point, it being that accusing Steiner of nazi-ish racism
), when the proto-nazis (Hitler's group or others) were attacking him for
)not
)being racist, is contradictory to say the least.
I'm going to be frank, Frank: your "point" is nonsensical. Even allowing for
your empirically false version of events, there is nothing the slightest bit
contradictory in charging historical figures with racism, even "nazi-ish
racism", merely because those same figures were attacked by other racists. I
think this is painfully obvious, at the most basic logical level, even to
people who know little about Nazism specifically. Consider the following
claim:
"The point is that accusing Trotsky of Bolshevik-ish marxism, when the
Bolsheviks attacked him and eventually murdered him for not being marxist,
is contradictory to say the least."
Surely you can see why such a claim makes no sense at all. Trotsky most
certainly was a Bolshevik and a marxist, but that didn't stop other
Bolsheviks from murdering him and his followers. No contradiction is
involved. The same is true of a number of other ideological tendencies, from
fascists to nationalists to religious fundamentalists. Organizational
competition and ideological affinity do not contradict one another; they are
an extremely common combination in modern history. It is hard for me to
understand how you could manage to forget such simple facts when writing
about Steiner.
Going back to your account of the 1922 incident for a moment: the
Ludendorffers, who were responsible for the disruption of Steiner's lecture,
were vigorously persecuted by the Nazis once they came to power, and were in
fact banned by the Nazi state. So were the Ariosophists. So were any number
of other v–lkisch sects. Do you conclude from this that these non-Nazi
racists and fascists were actually beacons of brotherly love and racial
tolerance? If a Ludendorffer today (I'm afraid there are still some of them
around) were to do what you just did -- point to the fact that parts of the
Nazi elite were actively antagonistic toward their movement, as some sort of
evidence that their own politics couldn't possibly have anything in common
with Nazism -- every thinking person would find this preposterous. Why,
then, do you continue to rely on the very same thoroughly fallacious logic
regarding anthroposophy, even after other people have pointed out the gaping
holes in your reasoning?
I'd also like to point out that you have so far failed to offer any
substantiation whatsoever for a number of the other concrete claims you put
forward about the history of anthroposophy's relationship to Nazism. To
choose just one example, you asserted "that Hitler, once in power, convinced
that Steiner must have been a Jew, ordered the Gestapo to investigate his
genealogy", and then added "this is documented". Once again, I ask you to
tell us where you think this is documented, and why you think it supports
your version of the anthroposophist-Nazi relationship. Did you know, for
starters, that Ludendorff himself denounced the Nazi party as "entirely
Judaised"? Or that some early Nazi militants accused Hitler of being a pawn
of the Jews? Perhaps you think that lets Hitler or the Nazis off the hook
regarding antisemitism?
The documented facts about Steiner's genealogy, and official Nazi statements
related to it, indicate just about exactly the contrary of your own
conclusions. It was *anthroposophists* who formally requested a posthumous
'Aryan certificate' for Steiner (and it wasn't the Gestapo, by the way, who
processed such requests); they did so in order to 'prove' to the Nazi
bureaucrats that Steiner was racially reliable. That is, Steiner's own
followers, not Adolf Hitler, initiated the investigation of Steiner's
genealogy, in order to ingratiate themselves with the Nazis. I pointed this
out to you last year. My account is not only very well documented, it is
based entirely on anthroposophical sources. Is there some reason you dispute
it?
I'd like to reiterate that I am not asking you to engage in some sort of
research contest with me. I am, instead, asking you to take a more careful
look at the sources that your own fellow anthroposophists have provided on
these questions, and to undertake a long overdue revision of your publically
stated position on this history. As you indicated yourself last year, these
matters should not be dismissed as "a minor detail", especially by active
anthroposophist publicists and editors.
And now for a bit of humor:
) ) Unless you take
) ) pride in stinging like a butterfly and floating like a bee,
)
)I do, I do - and thanks for reminding me of the correct quote.
Ummm... that is not the "correct quote", Frank. Are you sure you're paying
attention here? Ali's self-description was that he floats like a butterfly
and stings like a bee, not the other way around. I don't know how things are
down there in Patagonia, but up here in the northern hemisphere, butterflies
do not sting. That was the point of my remark. What you think of as your
stinging comments consistently miss their mark, and leave your historical
arguments floating in the ether, disconnected from any basis in fact. I'd
say that's not something to be proud of.
Peter Staudenmaier
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:03:40 -0500
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: local paper's report: The Independent
Christopher Bennett wrote:
)Firstly Mad Dan did censor the article by drawing strong attention to the
)part he wanted everybody to read and ignored the balanced bought later on
)in
)the piece. Censorship can come in many ways and be inclusive as well as
)exclusive - think about it.
Hi Christopher,
I have thought about it, and written about it at length. There is
considerable room for reasonable argument about what constitutes censorship,
and some of my own work on the topic emphasizes the point that you seem to
be getting at, that censorship need not be simply exclusive. But your use of
the term still doesn't hold up even under that expanded understanding of
censorship. The notion that posting an unabridged article to a public forum
is a way of censoring that article makes no sense.
Aside from that, the brief passage that you considered "balanced" -- the
"casting a shadow on a very positive movement" bit -- is one of the most
frequently discussed claims on this list. It is precisely this attitude that
many critics of the anthroposophical movement find untenable and
irresponsible. Any movement has positive and negative aspects, and the
responsible way to deal with the negative aspects is to confront them
directly rather than pushing them to the sidelines and insisting that they
aren't really a problem for the movement as such.
)what
)is really wrong with these schools - that they tend to teach fantasy as
)fact
)and ignore large amounts of contempory learning.
That's a fine topic. Maybe you could tell us more about your thoughts on
this.
)By
)just drawing attention to the Waldorf examples and ignoring huge problems
)elsewhere you are censoring information by providing an unbalanced view.
That's what this list is for: critical discussion of Waldorf and
anthroposophy. It's not a general list about educational problems.
)What about the Catholic education and the history of abuse that has
)occurred
)there?
That's a good analogy. If a supporter of Catholic schools told you that the
recently revealed wave of abuse wasn't really a big deal and had nothing to
do with the church as an institution, would you find that argument sensible?
How about if they tried to place all the responsibility on a few bad apples
while insisting that "the system" played no role whatsoever? If you do find
that sort of response reasonable, then I don't think we have a disagreement
over Waldorf or anthroposophy, I think we have a disagreement over how to
make sense of evidence and how to draw well-founded conclusions. Critical
analysis, in my view, requires rejecting this kind of exculpatory argument,
whether we're talking about Waldorf schools, Catholic schools, or anything
else.
Last, could I ask you to take a deep breath and re-consider the tone you use
here? The spiteful tenor of your replies to Diana, Dan, and yours truly
doesnít exactly suggest a genuine appreciation for logical argument. Thanks,
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:46:04 -0300
From: "Frank Thomas Smith" (franksmith vdolores.com.ar)
Subject: RE: Accountability, efficacy, assessment and Waldorf: oxymoron?
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NJS wrote:
) ) Frank wrote:
) I think you snipped my mail, where I said that new teachers are
often (I say
) often because I can't speak for all schools as I don't know what they all
) do. There is no central Waldorf Ministry of Education to dictate what
) schools must do.) broken in by acting as an assistant to an experienced
) teacher for at least a year before taking a class.
No, didn't snip that part, it's there in my reply.
Right, sorry.
Frank, what role does AWSNA play realtive to a "Waldorf Ministry of
Education"?
I already mentioned that I have no experience with American
schools. Maybe someone else can answer that. I do know though that
countries with a sufficiently large number of schools usually form
some kind of association, which may or may not be important. In
Germany, for example, it is very important, because Waldorf schools
there receive state subsidies. And without belonging to the
association it is virtually impossible to get the subsidy. Argentina,
where I live and where there are 7 schools, has no association.
) How do you know if all of your students are being served?
)
) How does any school know that? Do you mean report cards? If so, these are
) weapons that teachers use to intimidate pupils. "If you don't learn this
) well enough to pass the test, you'll get a D or F", - thereby making the
) test the ultimate goal of education - instead of making the class so
) interesting that they *want* to learn.
NJS: Well, where do I begin? Public schools in the U.S., at least
the one I"m associated with, have several methods to assess whether a
student is being served. Homework (allows parents a "view" into the
curriculum so that they can evaluate their own child's ability to
master the material),
FTS: The Waldorf curriculum is no secret, and each school's
adaptation of it could hardly be either.
NJS: in class parent volunteers (also allowing this view into the
curriculum and now the classroom dynamic, how well the teacher
handles the kids, whether your child is working or horsing around,
how they are doing socially, etc.),
FTS: That's the first I've heard of a regular program of in-class
parent volunteers. Sounds like a good idea.
NJS: tests (yes, evil tests, that can be standardized and thus
provide one measurement of where your child sits on the continuum),
FTS: I have nothing against an occasional test, with the teacher
noting the errors rather than giving a grade - or more intensively in
the last year of grade school if the kids are going on to a
non-Waldorf high school. But standardized tests are not good
educational tools, first of all because in any group of children
there is always a small minority who mature later or are
intellectually weak. They are doomed to do poorly on tests and/or get
left back, with the resultant psychological damage. Also, test grades
become the wherewithal and objective of the educational process,
instead of real learning and inner development.
NJS: specialists (our school has a multitude of specialists from
reading, science, art, music, etc. who all provide a view into your
child), report cards (ours are a combinations of grades and
comments), teacher conferences, and study teams (when a child is
struggling a team is assembled of the parents, teacher, specialists,
principal, tutors, etc. to decide the best strategy for reaching a
child).
FTS: Specialization is not on the Waldorf grade school agenda -
secondary school yes. Although most Waldorf schools of any size will
have painting, music, gardening, eurythmy, foreign language, etc.
"specialists". In general, however, the class teacher is expected to
be an all-around specialist. It's very challenging and certainly not
boring. From what I read, by the way, despite all the specialists,
reading ability isn't exactly a raging success in American public
schools. Someone wrote that in W-schools the reading isn't taught
until the 3rd grade. Actually it's the 2nd grade - unless an
exception was involved. The idea behind this is to delay the academic
part until the child is at an age when she really wants to read. (And
by the second grade many children are reading on their own without
having been taught.) In my experience (and this is sincere) most
Waldorf children become avid readers sooner or later without being
pressured.
NJS: In Waldorf I had the lovely, hand written report that made
analogies of my child to various animal forms, discussed her energy,
behavior, and temperament. All very interesting, but they forgot to
mention she wasn't learning anything.
FTS: This must have been in the lower grades. Without knowing the
particulars or the people involved, I risk expressing my doubts that
she wasn't learning "anything". Obviously, though, she wasn't
learning what you thought she should be learning and maybe you were
right, I can't judge that.
) How does one determine whether a teacher is conveying the Waldorf
curriculum
) adequately?
)
The curriculum is supposed to be flexible - so the question should
be ..whether the teacher is teaching well. By "one" if you mean the
parents, that's up to them to decide. If they think not - now this is
only my opinion, what I would do - first talk to the teacher. If that
doesn't work, to a representative of the college of teachers. If that
doesn't work to a Board member. If all that doesn't work, i.e., you
are still not satisfied, leave the school.
) A basic concept is that the teacher should use her own initiative,
) imagination and capabilities. The Waldorf curriculum should serve only as a
) general guideline. So if a teacher says the curriculum says do
this or that,
) but I don't think that's the right thing for this particular group, who
) knows better - the teacher who knows the children intimately, or someone
) else?
NJS: You seem to be thinking that I am asking how to determine
whether a teacher is "implementing" the curriculum; my question
actually had to do with how you decide whether a teacher is able to
"convey" the curriculum to the students. In other words, how do you
know whether the students are getting it? In the end, Frank, isn't
this call made solely by the Waldorf teacher?
FTS: Yes. But (there's always a but) if she isn't the college of
teachers is the responsible body which should do something about it.
If they don't, they're not functioning properly. I already mentioned
somewhere that this can be a problem which should be addressed more
vigorously.
NJS: And, Frank, don't teachers have a vested interest in
portraying a child as having a problem learning rather than
themselves a problem teaching?
FTS: In some cases yes. Again it depends on the individual. And I
don't think it applies particularly to Waldorf teachers. My son goes
to a public secondary school here (no choice), where the only
indication of learning is test marks. And the teachers make damn sure
that no more than a certain percentage of pupils fail by dumbing down
the tests. My son, a W-school grade school graduate is at the top of
the class, second only to a Hermione-like non-Waldorf girl.
NJS: It's a question of checks and balances, and Waldorf has none.
If you get a good teacher that you can trust great, if not, good luck.
FTS: I agree, except for the absolutist "none". I know some people
consider this an empty apology, but it does depend on the school.
Some schools are more conscious of the need to find good teachers
than others, and do have checks, at least when the teacher is new.
The bigger the school, the bigger the problem. In a small school,
where everyone knows everyone well, an incompetent teacher will stand
out immediately.
) These questions become more important in Waldorf since there are
no forms of
) student assessment in the early grades beyond the subjective musings of the
) teacher.
)
) By "subjective musings", I assume you mean the detailed report to
parents on
) each child's development, objective as well as subjective, and not only the
) intellectual development. If you prefer A,B,C,D or F - you view
of education
) is light years away from ours.
How does Waldorf give objective assessments in the early grades?
Everything we received was entirely subjective. No, don't prefer A,
B, or C, teacher conferences help round those out, as does
volunteering in class, homework, etc.
I meant that the report should objective as well as subjective.
)
) Nor can parents volunteer during main lesson.
)
) I don't know what you mean by this. Volunteer for what?
Well, I"ll give you an example. Our class had a job in which
parents came into the class to clean art materials, but this had to
be done afterschool. There were other jobs like this but parents
were generally banned from main lesson. If I can't see my child's
teacher in action it makes me very uncomfortable, especially when
children are young and are so uninterested in providing classroom
details to their parents. From what I've read this is a common
practice at Waldorf, if so, parents should be informed in advance.
In the W-school my older children attended in Switzerland, all the
parents were invited to observe a class quarterly. Of course the
children were on their best behavior, all eager to show that they
knew everything, so it was a bit artificial. I don't know if other
schools have a specific program of that kind, (I know relatively few
schools) but now that you bring it up, I think I'll recommend it.
) And since main lesson books are copied almost rote from teacher's example
) on the board what do they truly reveal other than a child's ability to
) imitate?
These books are usually works of art, displayed at public and
school events. To me and many others, they reveal a lot. But YKMV
(your karma may vary).
)
) This is done in order to avoid the junk texts issued by the Bored of
) Education.
Is that really the reason Frank? It has nothing to do with the
importance of imitation in Steiner's view? Or his notion that
children younger than 14 do not have the capability for abstract
thought?
Yes, that's the real reason - also to give them practice in writing
(the basis for reading), and drawing with colors. The importance of
imitation refers to the young child's inate ability and need to
imitate, in speech and actions of adults. As far as drawing what the
teacher draws on the blackboard, this is not always the case (or
shouldn't be). The teacher may tell a story, for example, then tell
the children to draw an illustration from their own imagination. I
don't think that Steiner said that children younger than 14 have no
capability for abstract thought - rather that it shouldn't be forced
on them before they're ready for it.
"Ron Miller, founder of (put in italics) Holistic Education Review
is also a satisfied parent of a Waldorf student. Nonethless, he
wonders in AWSNA's Renewal "whether [Waldorf teachers] could nourish
him even more by not choreographing his every move and expecting
quite so much imitation and recitation." A Waldorf teacher, he notes,
is "solidly in command of students' attention, moment after moment,
after moment; children have little opportunity to engage in
independent activites or conversations; younger children, in
particular are not encouraged to question the teacher but to imitate
what he or she models."
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/ArticleMaryPetrie.html
"Rudolf Steiner's passionate concern was that children before
second dentition should be busy building strong, healthy bodies and
not using immature intellectual faculties which cause them to draw
upon their precious supplies of calendar energy, properly reserved
for later." http://www.waldorflibrary.org/Journal_Articles/GW3602.pdf
I'll read the articles later. In any case, second dentition starts
way before 14.
) ) Other than the mentor sitting at the back of the room, what other methods
) ) can be used to assess a teacher's competence when no adults are watching?
)
) Well, the mentor is an adult - but if you are referring back to parents in
) the classroom, I know of no prohibition on this. In fact, often
new teachers
) come from the ranks of parents. In my experience, interested
parents (one at
) a time) may observe classes. New children in kindergarten are often
) accompanied by mothers until they feel secure.
This prohibition often goes unstated, until a parent keeps
discovers all the volunteer opportunities are outside the classroom.
Or during specialty teacher time. Perhaps this differs by country?
What I am trying to suggest is that methods for assessing teacher
competence are weak by design, since the primary focus of Waldorf
education is spiritual development the need for academic progress to
be monitored is secondary. Instead the focus is on the temperature
of a child's hands, or how much sleep they're getting for cosmic
travel. It keeps everything nice and squishy.
Or nice and human.
) ) Isn't it commonly understood Frank that teachers are learning along with
) ) their students? That, ideally, they are only a few weeks ahead of the
) ) subject matter? That they are also on a journey of spiritual development
) ) and are to learn as much from their students about themselves as they are
) to
) ) instruct? How does Waldorf determine when a teacher is a poor
student? Or
) ) when a teacher is not "keeping up" with their class? If the
model assumes
) ) mutual education, then there must be some way to assess a teacher's
) ) progress, no?
)
) If I haven't answered to your satisfaction, what do you suggest?
) Frank
I'm just curious how this mutual striving thing works, that's all.
I'd be repeating myself - or maybe I'm just tired. I do appreciate
your questions, though, which are on a much higher level than what
one usually meets here - although I suspect I haven't satisfied you.
Best,
Frank
"According to Rudolf Steiner in the Pedagogical Youth Course,
whoever is unable to learn from the child what she brings down as a
messenger from higher worlds will not be able to offer or teach the
child
anything about the conditions of earth existence. Only when we
accept the child as a teacher, bringing new impulses,can we open the
door for the child's understanding of the riddles of earth's
existence, of
understanding the earth itself".
http://www.waldorflibrary.org/Journal_Articles/GW3503.pdf
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:46:32 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Fwd: In Response
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Begin forwarded message:
) From: Jade Louise (constant_erosion yahoo.com)
) Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 06:52:03 PM US/Pacific
) To: president waldorfcritics.org
) Subject: In Response
)
)
)
) Dear President of the Waldorf Critics,
)
) İİİİİİİ İİI have attended the Chicago Waldorf School for the past 3
) years and I have been quite happy with it. I found your website to be
) an inaccurate and false ÏtestimonialÓ to Waldorf curriculum and I kept
) searching for a reason on why you would spend so much time ripping
) apart a unique and effective way of teaching and my only conclusion is
) you are too ignorant to understand its alternative educational values.
) You take quotes from SteinerÌs works and remove them from their initial
) context so you can use them to help paint a false picture of his
) beliefs. You claim Waldorf is a cult and racist, to me and everyone
) else who knows the truth, it just goes to prove that you have no real
) factual evidence to hate a whole entire educational movement. I canÌt
) speak for your individual experiences but it would seem to me that you
) are generalizing a whole educational style based on one altercation. If
) you are really dedicated to Ïspreading the truthÓ about Waldorf you
) would post my letter so the public can see there are children who love
) this educational style.
)
) İ
)
) İİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİ
) İİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİThank you
)
) İİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİ
) İİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİİElizabeth
)
)
)
(File attached: image.tiff)
)
) Do you Yahoo!?
) Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
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Begin forwarded message:
(excerpt)From: Jade Louise ((constant_erosion yahoo.com)
Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 06:52:03 PM US/Pacific
To: president waldorfcritics.org
Subject: In Response
Dear President of the Waldorf Critics,
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0I have attended the Chicago Waldorf School =
for the past 3
years and I have been quite happy with it. I found your website to be
an inaccurate and false =ECtestimonial=EE to Waldorf curriculum and I =
kept
searching for a reason on why you would spend so much time ripping
apart a unique and effective way of teaching and my only conclusion is
you are too ignorant to understand its alternative educational values.
You take quotes from Steiner=EDs works and remove them from their
initial context so you can use them to help paint a false picture of
his beliefs. You claim Waldorf is a cult and racist, to me and
everyone else who knows the truth, it just goes to prove that you have
no (underline)real(/underline) (underline)factual(/underline) evidence
to hate a whole entire educational movement. I can=EDt speak for your
individual experiences but it would seem to me that you are
generalizing a whole educational style based on one altercation. If
you are really dedicated to =ECspreading the truth=EE about Waldorf you
would post my letter so the public can see there are children who love
this educational style.
Elizabeth
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:45:34 -0300
From: "Frank Thomas Smith" (franksmith vdolores.com.ar)
Subject: RE: Admin: ad hominem warning [RE: local paper's report:
TheIndependent]
Dan wrote:
) Christopher Bennett, I'm pleased to have a new voice in the
) discussion, but you can only participate if you do so in a civil
) manner. You wrote:
)
) )most people who post here are more interested in
) )"twittering" to salve their own consciences and egos than advancing
logical
) )arguments against seemingly inadequate schooling.
)
) This is an ad hominem argument; you're attacking the other
) correspondents, not their ideas. This is not allowed here.
)
) -Dan Dugan
) Moderator
Dan, you shock me. Christopher, an non-Waldorfian newbie, expresses his
opinion of the "twittering" (a mild epithet, to say the least) he has
observed on this list, and you accuse him of attacking the other
correspondents. He names no individual, only "most people who post here",
which, come to think of it, includes me. Nevertheless, I understand his
reaction. Those he refers to not only criticize, but slander a particular
individual (Rudolf Steiner), "most" anthroposopists and Waldorf education.
So you, while being one of the most guilty of the above, react like Miss
Umbridge, High Inquisitor of Hogwarts, and issue a decree: "This is not
allowed here". Now, if you feel that I have attacked you or "most people who
post here", I plead guilty. And if you decide to expel me from school, I
would be most honored, would even include it in my CV.
Frank
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 08:29:31 -0300
From: "Frank Thomas Smith" (franksmith vdolores.com.ar)
Subject: RE: Frank on "revisionist tactics"
) Hi Frank,
)
) )I recently read that masturbation is an excellent preventive for prostate
) )cancer for men between 40 and 55. This scientific breakthrough comes too
) )late for me (over 55) - perhaps Peter can benefit though.
) )Frank
)
) I've got a couple years left before I hit 40, but cancer or no cancer, I'm
a
) big fan of sexual pleasure, most definitely including the
self-administered
) variety.
Ah, you're young. Maybe there's hope for you yet, but I doubt it. I predict
that in your next incarnation you will be a fanatical anthroposophist.
Since this seems so obvious to me, I've never understood why people
) use terms like "wanker" or "intellectual masturbation" in a pejorative
) sense; I can't help suspecting that these people have awfully dull sex
) lives. Only someone who thinks that physical masturbation is a bad thing
) could think that intellectual masturbation is a bad thing. If you don't
like
) playing with yourself, you're likely to think it's some sort of put-down
to
) say that other people play with themselves. Presumably that is what
) Christopher had in mind.
Masturbation by adolescents, especially if the real thing is unavailable,
has its undeniable benefits. Once maturity is reached, however (if it ever
is), the real thing (sex with another person, including love, if possible)
beats the hell out of playing with yourself - as you euphemistically put it.
In the same sense, the metaphor "intellectual masturbation" implies
concentration on what one sees as or wants to see as the truth, and finally
when it becomes obvious that it isn't the truth, to insist on it. The real
thing (truth) beats the hell out of that.
)
) It seems to me that the same goes for the notion of critique: People who
) have little experience subjecting their own beliefs to criticism are often
) appalled when others go to the trouble of doing so for them. But those of
us
) who are used to self-criticism (or, analogously, self-pleasure) find
nothing
) unusual in this exercise; indeed some of us see informed critique as a way
) of paying due respect to another body of thought. Strangely, I have yet to
) come across this attitude among anthroposophists and their admirers.
Perhaps you should indulge in some enhanced self-criticism, pleasurable or
not, and realize that the mental masturbation you have such fun with, when
projected on others, is decidedly unpleasurable to them.
That
) fundamental difference may have something to do with the strikingly
) different perspectives that you and I bring to historical questions, but
) more on that in a moment.
Quite possibly.
)
) )Also, I
) )can't compete with you as far as research goes. My anthroposophical
library
) )is small, now, and I live on a mountain at the ass end of the world
without
) )access to reference materials.
)
) I don't see how that's a response to the remark I made. In that message, I
) didn't say anything about your access to either anthroposophical materials
) or reference works, I said something about your general grasp of twentieth
) century history and your understanding of fascism. But now that you've
) raised the point, I will gladly reiterate the offer I have made many times
) before: if you, or anybody else, would like a photocopy of any Steiner
text
) that I have quoted, in English or in German, I will mail it to you. You
just
) need to ask. In the several years that I have been on this list, not one
) would-be defender of Steiner, Anthroposophy, or Waldorf has ever taken me
up
) on this offer. Perhaps you can see why that might make it hard for some of
) us to take your complaints about "quotations out of context" seriously. If
) you don't know what the context is, and aren't interested in finding out
) what the context is, how exactly did you conclude that a given quote has
) been taken out of its context in the first place? As much as I like
talking
) about sex, I'd be more interested in hearing your views on relevant
) questions like this than your opinions on prostate cancer.
I missed that offer, may take you up on it if the occasion arises. As far as
concluding that a given text is taken out of context: I have occupied myself
for many years with Steiner's work, and although I don't always agree with
everything he said, I do know that his fundamental creed was the value of
the free individual, regardless of race, ethnic group, nationality, or
religion. So I see such snippets that seem to indicate the cntgrary - and
the examples are rare - of a person whose every word for most of is life was
taken down by someone, most of which were published after his death ("Did I
say that?") as out of context.
A snippet of my own, out of context:
Quote: "Worth should only attributed to the mutual effects of individuals.
It is indifferent if someone is a Jew or a Germanic (...). That is so
obvious that one feels stupid just saying it. How stupid must someone be to
say the opposite!" Gesammelte Aufs”tze zur Kultur-und Zeitgeschichte
1887-1901, Sept. 1897, GA31, Pg. 198-199
That's not from unreliable notes on an early lecture, but a published
article. Quoted in "Rassenideale sind der Niedergang der Menschheit -
Anthroposophie und der Rassismus-vorwurf", Stuttgart 2002, a book I
recommend to you.
There is an oft quoted passage of Steiner's (I don't know if you have used
it, but it's oft quoted anyway) where he says that "A man is always a man,
even when he's a Negro". This sounds racist and condescending, but when
taken in context of the rabid racism of the time (1915), when Negroes were
considered by many in Europe to be inferior beings, it is in fact the
opposite. Steiner's point was that the individual's race doesn't matter to
his humanity.
)
) Yours for a good healthy wank,
Likewise,
Frank
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:14:44 -0300
From: "Frank Thomas Smith" (franksmith vdolores.com.ar)
Subject: RE: Frank's version of history
) Hi again Frank, you wrote:
)
) )No, I don't think it is a bad thing. I was referring to the kind of
) )revisionism which has as its purpose the destruction of the reputations
of
) )historical personalities, while ignoring the evidence of their positive
) )contributions. The examples you so kindly resucitated are, I think, fair
) )examples.
)
) If the examples you gave are representative of your general views on this
) topic, it's no wonder you're horrified when historians point out Steiner's
) racism and the pattern of collaboration between anthroposophists and
Nazis.
Correction: horrified no, annoyed and, a little, amused. I emphatically deny
racism by Steiner, but never denied (I don't think, don't go seaching the
archivs now) that *some* anthropophists either collaboarated with the Nazis
or were sympathizers. If Steiner had still been alive, he would have beat
the shit out of them.
) You think we're out to destroy somebody's reputation. I'd like to politely
) request that you consider adopting a more serious attitude toward
historical
) subjects. But while we're at it, let's take a look at your own chosen
) examples of "revisionism":
)
) "Oh, Jefferson had slaves, therefore he was a hypocrite with his "all men
) are created equal" - Oh, Plato and Socrates were pedophiles, so don't
) believe their philosophy - Oh, Goethe was a quack scientist because modern
) science doesn't agree with him. -Oh, Shakespeare couldn't possibly have
) written all that stuff, he didn't even finish high school. Oh, Jesus
) probably didn't even exist, because there's no real evidence, etc."
)
) The claims about Plato, Socrates, and Shakespeare are not instances of
) historical revisionism, they are examples of flawed logic; they are
obvious
) non sequiturs. Can you point to any revisionist historians who have
advanced
) such arguments, or others like them?
Please, Peter, I'm not a historian and can't point out how said what. I can
say that I have read, heard and argued about these theories. As far as
Shakespeare not having been the author of his work, that's an argument -as
you well know - that has been going on for a long time, also involving
historians. I assume you mean that a real professional historian wouldn't
say such things.
The claims about Goethe and Jesus, on
) the other hand, are perfectly acceptable forms of historical analysis
(even
) though both claims are false, in my view), and they certainly do not serve
) to destroy the reputations of the figures in question. Those sorts of
) arguments can easily be countered with evidence and logic, and they may
well
) yield fruitful lines of inquiry that add to our knowledge of,
understanding
) of, and appreciation for Goethe or Jesus.
Wow! We agree.
The claim about Jefferson,
) finally, is an excellent real-world example of revisionist history, and
) demonstrates why this kind of history is crucially important to making
sense
) of the past and relating it to the present. If you believe that
Jefferson's
) slaveholding was *not* an egregious violation of his own public statements
) on human equality, Frank, would you mind explaining why you believe that?
)
Jefferson spoke and wrote often and elequently in support of the abolition
of slavery. For example:
"This abomination must have an end. And there is a superior bench reserved
in heaven for those who hasten it." See much more at:
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-foley?id=JefCycl.xml&images=imag
es/modeng&data=/texts/english/jefferson/foley&tag=public&part=19&division=di
v1
He also says that "the laws do not permit us to turn them loose". So, to say
that his being a slave owner violates his statements on equality is either
slander or ignorance of the conditions prevailaing at the time. I would also
like to mention that ruckus a few yearsback in the States about "Huckleberry
Finn" being a racist book and therefore Mark Twain was a racist, when in
reality the book is a condemnation of slavery cloaked in irony and humor.
) )Justification: from Flensburger Heft, 3/91, page 71:
)
) I'm glad to see you're familiar with Flensburger Hefte, one of the more
) perspicacious anthroposophical journals. I'd like to point out that your
own
) stated views (and not just on the 1922 incident) are often quite
) incompatible with the extensive documentation on the history of
) anthroposophy during the Third Reich that Flensburger Hefte have published
) over the years. But let's look at your take on this one very interesting
) event:
)
) )"In 1922 an attack
) )against Rudolf Steiner took place in the Vier Jahreszeiten Hotel during a
) )lecture. An eye witness, the anthroposophist Emil Leinhas, reports on it
in
) )his book "Aus der Arbeit mit Rudolf Steiner".
) )The attack "not completely unexpected by us, was carried out be a
) )nationalist assault group (v–lkischen Stosstrupp). At the moment when
) )Rudolf
) )Steiner was speaking the last words of his lecture, the lights in the
room
) )went out and the attackers jumped onto the podium. Rudolf Steiner was
just
) )able to end his lecture. Because of our prepared defence that immediately
) )went into action, especially the courageous intervention by some
) )friends...,
) )Rudolf Steiner was protected from rough maltreatment. He was then able,
) )covered by friends, to escape through the back door of the hotel." (my
) )translation)
) )
) )From this description, it would appear that I exaggerated when I said it
) )was
) )an attack on his life.
)
) I suppose that's one way of putting it. For those of us who take history
) seriously, calling a disrupted lecture an assassination attempt isn't just
) exaggerated, it's completely inaccurate, as I pointed out to you last
year.
) Moreover, you originally said that "the proto-Nazis" were responsible for
) this scuffle. That is also inaccurate, as I pointed out to you last year.
) Here are two more anthroposophist accounts of the 1922 incident:
Peter, I already admitted an exaggeration, now I will admit "complete
inaccuracy", if that will please you more.
(snip)
) And now for a bit of humor:
)
) ) ) Unless you take
) ) ) pride in stinging like a butterfly and floating like a bee,
) )
) )I do, I do - and thanks for reminding me of the correct quote.
)
) Ummm... that is not the "correct quote", Frank. Are you sure you're paying
) attention here? Ali's self-description was that he floats like a butterfly
) and stings like a bee, not the other way around. I don't know how things
are
) down there in Patagonia, but up here in the northern hemisphere,
butterflies
) do not sting. That was the point of my remark. What you think of as your
) stinging comments consistently miss their mark, and leave your historical
) arguments floating in the ether, disconnected from any basis in fact. I'd
) say that's not something to be proud of.
As you must know, Peter, here in the antipodes "everything" is opposite:
summer is winter, winter is summer, butterflies sting, bees float. Look it
up.
Frank
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 22:21:30 +0200
From: "Ylva Eliasson" (ulfva telia.com)
Subject: Re: biodynamic preparation
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Dugan" (dan dandugan.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: biodynamic preparation
) Ylva Eliasson, you wrote:
)
) )Does anybody know about the biodynamic preparations a little more
) )than I do? I just read in the Demeter magazine "Kultura" that anthro
) )people are travelling to India ( and to Africa think I mentioned
) )before) to teach biodynamic agriculturing bringing theese things on
) )the plane. Seems a bit peculiar to me - I mean if theese
) )preparations are nessesary for biodynamic cultivation it should be
) )possible to prepare them anywhere. I¥m not even sure the plants
) )needed for the preparations gr