return to WCA Archive Index
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
By fitzcandoservices yahoo.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 02:16:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Cc: Macintyre (atlantic nii.net)
Subject: Re: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
--0-419172439-1075716975=:49807
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Dan....
can you elaborate on this...
"First, because public funding of Waldorf education violates the
Establishment Clause of our constitution."
I don't get the violation here. What are considered "public funds" ?
Parents money? Because they are paying tuition with after-tax income?
The other part of this amendment is the Free Exercise Clause...
Freedom to have a Waldorf School.
Thanks
Mark
Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
Gavin Macintyre, you wrote to PLANS. I'm replying on our public
discussion list. Please subscribe if you want to participate in
subsequent discussion.
)Why don't you guys just walk away and let the general public make up their
)own minds about Waldorf Education?
First, because public funding of Waldorf education violates the
Establishment Clause of our constitution. Parents who want Waldorf
are happy to have the public pay for it. The "general public" doesn't
know what's going on.
Second, because Waldorf schools, both public and private, make
deceptive claims about the nature of their philosophy and their
practices. The general public needs some assistance to avoid consumer
fraud.
)If you no longer have children in a Waldorf School, why are you spending so
)much time on putting down Waldorf Education.
Because I have experience with it, and it's interesting. I've been
studying it for fifteen years now.
)Have you visited all the
)Waldorf Schools in the U.S., or elsewhere in the world?
I've visited quite a few, but what difference would that make?
)I am not sure what you mean by a cult? Note that the biggest cult in the
)U.S. is the Church. It is just not called a cult as it has millions of
)members.
There are religious cults, and there are legitimate religions. Cult
scholars debate where to draw the line, because they overlap. I
suggest you read some articles in the Cultic Studies Review, at
http://www.csj.org/. Also Margaret Singer's book "Cults in our Midst"
discusses the difference between a cult and a legitimate
organization. When someone joins a church, they can find out ahead of
time what they're getting into. Cults get people committed before
they know what the're in for.
Anthroposophy, in my opinion, was a cult while Steiner was alive. Now
it's a cult-like religious sect.
)Sincerely,
)Gavin Macintyre
Sincerely, Dan Dugan
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
---------------------------------
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1244
-- Topica Digest --
RE: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
By fitzcandoservices yahoo.com
Re: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
By Gary goodwinter.com
Re: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
By fitzcandoservices yahoo.com
RE: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
By gideonmills yahoo.com
Re: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
By dan dandugan.com
camphill and special ed
By Jan-Christoph_Kolb web.de
=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9coles?= Waldorf-suite a l'article du journal le Devoir
le 6
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
By fitzcandoservices yahoo.com
Re: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
By fitzcandoservices yahoo.com
Re: camphill and special ed
By fitzcandoservices yahoo.com
RE: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
By diana.winters verizon.net
doing your homework
By fitzcandoservices yahoo.com
Re: Critics are a wrecking ball swinging against humanity
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
By fitzcandoservices yahoo.com
RE: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
By fitzcandoservices yahoo.com
RE: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
By fitzcandoservices yahoo.com
Admin: Re: camphill and special ed
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 07:56:23 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3E962.11882DF0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Mark Fitzpatrick wrote:
"'First, because public funding of Waldorf education violates the
Establishment Clause of our constitution.'
I don't get the violation here. What are considered 'public funds'?
Parents money? Because they are paying tuition with after-tax income?"
No, Mark - public funds are tax money. "Public" schools in the US are
schools funded by tax money, not parents paying private tuition. The money
going there is NOT "after-tax income." Everybody in the neighborhood is
paying for the local public schools, whether they have children attending
them or not, and whether they *want* to be paying for them or not. The
"Establishment Clause" refers to the constitutional separation of church and
state in the US. Public funds may not be spent to promote religion.
Religious schools promote religion to a captive audience - schoolchildren -
and thus in the US religious schools must be private schools; they are not
eligible for public funds. The local public school often serves families of
many different faiths, and in fairness to all of them the deal is that no
particular religion may be promoted by the state school. The overall purpose
is peace and tolerance - the state must not fund one religion because in
fairness it would then need to fund them all, or conflict would (does)
result. Ironically, the bottom line is that the US is very religious and
separation of church and state helps to *keep* it religious; separation of
church and state was originally intended to protect the freedom of every
religious sect, large and small (popular and unpopular) to worship as they
choose and provide religious instruction for their children as they see fit
(rather than having the public school teaching the kids something the
parents do not believe).
"The other part of this amendment is the Free Exercise Clause...
Freedom to have a Waldorf School."
Yes, there is "Freedom to have a Waldorf school," there is freedom to do
lots of things - you just can't ask the government for the money to do it,
because the government is sworn to neutrality among all the hundreds of
different religions. Religious schools must be private institutions, paid
for by families of *that* religion and/or families to whom it is acceptable
to pay fees to the religious school. The problem with the tax money is that
nobody has a choice about whether to pay it.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 10:05:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
--0-1647777625-1075745119=:61646
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
what you are saying makes sense then because Waldorf is funded by private money
NOT public. I have looked into this and the Waldorf school is NOT paid by our taxes but rather private tutition.
Therefore your argument holds no water.... Waldorf can do whaterver it wants as it is not being funded by the gov't.
Your info is wrong about funding therefore all aguments dependent on it are void.
Thx
Mark
Diana Winters (Diana.Winters verizon.net) wrote:
Mark Fitzpatrick wrote:
“’First, because public funding of Waldorf education violates the
Establishment Clause of our constitution.’
I don't get the violation here. What are considered ‘public funds’?
Parents money? Because they are paying tuition with after-tax income?”
No, Mark – public funds are tax money. “Public” schools in the US are schools funded by tax money, not parents paying private tuition. The money going there is NOT “after-tax income.” Everybody in the neighborhood is paying for the local public schools, whether they have children attending them or not, and whether they *want* to be paying for them or not. The “Establishment Clause” refers to the constitutional separation of church and state in the US. Public funds may not be spent to promote religion. Religious schools promote religion to a captive audience – schoolchildren – and thus in the US religious schools must be private schools; they are not eligible for public funds. The local public school often serves families of many different faiths, and in fairness to all of them the deal is that no particular religion may be promoted by the state school. The overall purpose is peace and tolerance – the state must not fund one religion because in fairness it would then need to fund them
all, or conflict would (does) result. Ironically, the bottom line is that the US is very religious and separation of church and state helps to *keep* it religious; separation of church and state was originally intended to protect the freedom of every religious sect, large and small (popular and unpopular) to worship as they choose and provide religious instruction for their children as they see fit (rather than having the public school teaching the kids something the parents do not believe).
“The other part of this amendment is the Free Exercise Clause...
Freedom to have a Waldorf School.”
Yes, there is “Freedom to have a Waldorf school,” there is freedom to do lots of things – you just can’t ask the government for the money to do it, because the government is sworn to neutrality among all the hundreds of different religions. Religious schools must be private institutions, paid for by families of *that* religion and/or families to whom it is acceptable to pay fees to the religious school. The problem with the tax money is that nobody has a choice about whether to pay it.
Diana
==^================================================================You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
---------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 16:10:41 -0500
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Re: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
Don't get excited, Mark.
PLANS lawsuit is against publicly funded *charter* schools who are using the
Waldorf curriculum, not private Waldorf schools (though we also have many
concerns with those too, including deceptive advertising, flawed curriculum,
etc. etc. etc.).
You need to read our web site more deeply and carefully, I think.
Cheers!
...Gary
on 2/2/04 1:05 PM, Mark Fitzpatrick at fitzcandoservices yahoo.com wrote:
what you are saying makes sense then because Waldorf is funded by private
money
NOT public. I have looked into this and the Waldorf school is NOT paid by
our taxes but rather private tutition.
Therefore your argument holds no water.... Waldorf can do whaterver it wants
as it is not being funded by the gov't.
Your info is wrong about funding therefore all aguments dependent on it are
void.
Thx
Mark
Diana Winters (Diana.Winters verizon.net) wrote:
Mark Fitzpatrick wrote:
“’First, because public funding of Waldorf education violates the
Establishment Clause of our constitution.’
I don't get the violation here. What are considered ‘public funds’?
Parents money? Because they are paying tuition with after-tax income?”
No, Mark – public funds are tax money. “Public” schools in the US are
schools funded by tax money, not parents paying private tuition. The money
going there is NOT “after-tax income.” Everybody in the neighborhood is
paying for the local public schools, whether they have children attending
them or not, and whether they *want* to be paying for them or not. The
“Establishment Clause” refers to the constitutional separation of church and
state in the US. Public funds may not be spent to promote religion.
Religious schools promote religion to a captive audience – schoolchildren –
and thus in the US religious schools must be private schools; they are not
eligible for public funds. The local public school often serves families of
many different faiths, and in fairness to all of them the deal is that no
particular religion may be promoted by the state school. The overall purpose
is peace and tolerance – the state must not fund one religion because in
fairness it would then need to fund them all, or conflict would (does)
result. Ironically, the bottom line is that the US is very religious and
separation of church and state helps to *keep* it religious; separation of
church and state was originally intended to protect the freedom of every
religious sect, large and small (popular and unpopular) to worship as they
choose and provide religious instruction for their children as they see fit
(rather than having the public school teaching the kids something the
parents do not believe).
“The other part of this amendment is the Free Exercise Clause...
Freedom to have a Waldorf School.”
Yes, there is “Freedom to have a Waldorf school,” there is freedom to do
lots of things – you just can’t ask the government for the money to do it,
because the government is sworn to neutrality among all the hundreds of
different religions. Religious schools must be private institutions, paid
for by families of *that* religion and/or families to whom it is acceptable
to pay fees to the religious school. The problem with the tax money is that
nobody has a choice about whether to pay it.
Diana
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:13:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
ok
Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com) wrote:Don't get excited, Mark.
PLANS lawsuit is against publicly funded *charter* schools who are using the Waldorf curriculum, not private Waldorf schools (though we also have many concerns with those too, including deceptive advertising, flawed curriculum, etc. etc. etc.).
You need to read our web site more deeply and carefully, I think.
Cheers!
...Gary
on 2/2/04 1:05 PM, Mark Fitzpatrick at fitzcandoservices yahoo.com wrote:
what you are saying makes sense then because Waldorf is funded by private money
NOT public. I have looked into this and the Waldorf school is NOT paid by our taxes but rather private tutition.
Therefore your argument holds no water.... Waldorf can do whaterver it wants as it is not being funded by the gov't.
Your info is wrong about funding therefore all aguments dependent on it are void.
Thx
Mark
Diana Winters (Diana.Winters verizon.net) wrote:
Mark Fitzpatrick wrote:
“’First, because public funding of Waldorf education violates the
Establishment Clause of our constitution.’
I don't get the violation here. What are considered ‘public funds’?
Parents money? Because they are paying tuition with after-tax income?”
No, Mark – public funds are tax money. “Public” schools in the US are schools funded by tax money, not parents paying private tuition. The money going there is NOT “after-tax income.” Everybody in the neighborhood is paying for the local public schools, whether they have children attending them or not, and whether they *want* to be paying for them or not. The “Establishment Clause” refers to the constitutional separation of church and state in the US. Public funds may not be spent to promote religion. Religious schools promote religion to a captive audience – schoolchildren – and thus in the US religious schools must be private schools; they are not eligible for public funds. The local public school often serves families of many different faiths, and in fairness to all of them the deal is that no particular religion may be promoted by the state school. The overall purpose is peace and tolerance – the state must not fund one religion because in fairness it would then need to fund them
all, or conflict would (does) result. Ironically, the bottom line is that the US is very religious and separation of church and state helps to *keep* it religious; separation of church and state was originally intended to protect the freedom of every religious sect, large and small (popular and unpopular) to worship as they choose and provide religious instruction for their children as they see fit (rather than having the public school teaching the kids something the parents do not believe).
“The other part of this amendment is the Free Exercise Clause...
Freedom to have a Waldorf School.”
Yes, there is “Freedom to have a Waldorf school,” there is freedom to do lots of things – you just can’t ask the government for the money to do it, because the government is sworn to neutrality among all the hundreds of different religions. Religious schools must be private institutions, paid for by families of *that* religion and/or families to whom it is acceptable to pay fees to the religious school. The problem with the tax money is that nobody has a choice about whether to pay it.
Diana
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
==^================================================================You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:23:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Gideon Mills (gideonmills yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
--0-583133460-1075775012=:24884
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com) wrote:" I have looked into this and the Waldorf school is NOT paid by our taxes but rather private tutition."
Schools that are chartered through a public school are supported by public monies. Therefore, if a Waldorf school is a charter school it is publically funded and must not violate federal or state laws governing public schools.
Deborah
---------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:02:08 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9coles?= Waldorf-suite a l'article du journal le Devoir
le 6 =?iso-8859-1?Q?d=E9cembre?= 2003 (3 articles)
Quand une soirée d'information devient séance de
recrutement - Un reflet des préjugés et non de la
réalité
Philip van Leeuwen
Parent-fondateur et membre du comité de
coordination du groupe EWM pour une école
publique inspirée de la pédagogie Waldorf à
Montréal
...dition du vendredi 19 décembre
(http://www.ledevoir.com/2003/12/19/index.html)
2003
Dans son article sur la pédagogie Waldorf publié
dans Le Devoir du samedi 6 décembre 2003,
Isabelle Roberge mentionne l'importance des
contes et de la mythologie dans les écoles
Waldorf. Mme Roberge nous apparaît comme un
raconteur par excellence avec sa façon de tisser
et d'entrelacer divers mythes, rumeurs et
vieilles histoires portant sur cette pédagogie
pour produire une fiction du plus bel effet qui
semble refléter davantage les préjugés de Mme
Roberge que la réalité. Mais où sont son sens
critique et sa rigueur scientifique, qualités qui
nous apparaissent essentielles pour un
journaliste, surtout lorsque celui-ci publie sous
la bannière de l'Agence Science-Presse?
Permettez-nous quelques conseils.
Conseil no 1 : parler aux principaux intéressés
concernés et non seulement à ceux qui ont un
certain point de vue sur le sujet. Mme Roberge
mentionne le projet d'école du groupe ...lan
Waldorf Montréal à plusieurs reprises et accuse
ce groupe de parents de «soigneusement éviter»
les questions; or c'est plutôt Mme Roberge qui a
soigneusement évité de poser les questions qui la
préoccupent aux responsables du groupe.
Permettez-moi de répondre à l'une de ses
questions : pourquoi ne parlons-nous pas
d'anthroposophie dans nos documents ou à des
réunions publiques ? La réponse est très simple :
nous ne sommes pas des anthroposophes, et
l'anthroposophie n'est pas enseignée dans une
école Waldorf; nous ne sommes que de simples
parents qui reconnaissons les bénéfices de la
pédagogie Waldorf et qui voulons offrir ce choix
pédagogique aux familles de Montréal.
Conseil no 2 : vérifier les faits. Dans son
article «recyclé» (le même article a déjà été
publié presque intégralement par l'Agence
Science-Presse en août 2002 et en avril 2003),
Mme Roberge fait plusieurs erreurs. Par exemple :
- depuis plus d'un an, le nom du groupe de
parents est EWM et non ...lan Waldorf Montréal (le
mot «Waldorf» est une marque de commerce du
Waldorf School Association of Ontario et le
groupe EWM n'est pas autorisé à utiliser ce mot
dans son nom);
- la Commission scolaire de Montréal n'a jamais
offert -- et le groupe EWM n'a jamais refusé --
des locaux à partager avec une autre école;
- le jardin d'enfants L'Oiseau d'or est situé
dans les Cantons-de-l'Est et non à Montréal.
Et j'en passe...
Une demande
Mme Roberge choisit aussi soigneusement ses mots
pour raconter son histoire. Sous sa plume, une
simple soirée d'information devient une «séance
de recrutement». À l'occasion de ces séances, les
parents tentent de «convaincre» d'autres parents.
La vérité est moins excitante : le groupe EWM
reçoit beaucoup de demandes d'information de
parents intéressés et ces soirées sont tenues à
la demande de ces parents qui veulent en savoir
davantage sur la pédagogie.
De plus, l'intérêt pour ce projet est tellement
grand que nous continuons à recevoir chaque
semaine plusieurs inscriptions à notre liste
d'appui, malgré le fait que nous ayons cessé
toute activité de sensibilisation auprès du
public depuis plus d'un an. À ce jour, plus de
750 personnes ont déjà signé une déclaration
d'appui à la création d'une école publique
inspirée de la pédagogie Waldorf à Montréal. Plus
de 350 familles (500 enfants) attendent la
création d'une telle école. En fait, toutes les
écoles publiques inspirées de cette pédagogie
sont en croissance au Québec et ont toutes des
listes d'attente.
Pourquoi ce grand intérêt ? Parce que la
pédagogie Waldorf répond aux besoins des élèves
d'aujourd'hui. La pédagogie non seulement nourrit
la soif intellectuelle des élèves mais reconnaît
et développe aussi leurs capacités physiques,
émotives et sociales. La pédagogie respecte le
caractère unique de chaque enfant, ses rythmes de
développement, ses forces et ses capacités. La
majorité des élèves Waldorf aiment l'école; peu
décrochent.
En Europe, où plusieurs pays reconnaissent et
financent des écoles Waldorf, les résultats sont
impressionnants. En Allemagne, par exemple, selon
les résultats publiés par le ministère de
l'...ducation, seulement 3 % des élèves Waldorf ont
décroché en 1999-2000 par rapport à la moyenne
générale du pays, qui s'établit à 9 % (le taux de
décrochage à Montréal dépasse les 35 % !).
Cette pédagogie a aussi été reconnue par des
éducateurs, des scientifiques, des artistes et
des politiciens aussi bien que par des
organisations comme l'UNESCO. Lors d'une
conférence sur l'éducation à Genève en 1994, à
laquelle les ministres de l'...ducation de tous les
pays participaient, l'UNESCO a entièrement
cautionné cette pédagogie.
Il y a quelques années, les écoles Waldorf
(appelées aussi écoles Steiner) de France ont été
menacées par des propos semblables à ceux que
tient Mme Roberge. Voici ce qu'Albert Jacquard,
le célèbre généticien, écrivait au journal Le
Monde à ce sujet en mai 2001 : «J'apprends que
les écoles Steiner sont menacées. Je constate que
les méthodes pédagogiques qui y sont employées
sont dans le droit fil des réflexions que
j'essaie de diffuser par tous mes livres : la
finalité du système éducatif est de métamorphoser
un individu fait par la nature en une personne
faite par la société. Cette métamorphose
nécessite avant tout les rencontres : l'école est
le lieu où l'on apprend l'art de la rencontre.
Comment accepter que, par des tracasseries
administratives ou par des accusations sans
fondement, le magnifique élan apporté par les
écoles Steiner soit mis en péril ? J'appelle tous
ceux qui sont passionnés par les problèmes de
l'éducation à manifester leur soutien.»
http://www.ledevoir.com/2003/12/19/43216.html
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
...coles Waldorf - Ridiculiser plutôt qu'expliquer
Un nombre grandissant de parents québécois se tournent vers les écoles Waldorf
Louis Taillefer
Parent de deux enfants à l'école Les Enfants de
la Terre et professeur de physique à l'Université
de Sherbrooke
...dition du
(http://www.ledevoir.com/2003/12/19/index.html)
vendredi 19 décembre 2003
Il est navrant de constater qu'un journal comme
Le Devoir consacre une page entière de sa section
...ducation aux écoles Waldorf, un mouvement
international qui regroupe plus de 900 écoles sur
cinq continents et qui a fait l'objet d'une
conférence de l'UNESCO, sans s'intéresser
d'aucune façon à l'essentiel: la pédagogie qu'on
y enseigne. L'article d'Isabelle Roberge paru le
6 décembre dernier n'est manifestement que le
fruit d'un préjugé et n'éclairera en rien les
lecteurs qui s'intéressent vraiment à l'éducation
et seraient curieux d'en savoir plus sur ce type
d'école.
Il existe ici-même au Québec quatre écoles
Waldorf, et un nombre grandissant de parents se
tournent vers ce mode d'éducation, au point où
trois de ces écoles ont maintenant des listes
d'attente. Mais Mme Roberge n'a pas cru bon de
joindre qui que soit à ces écoles québécoises :
pas un seul parent, pas un seul élève, pas un
seul professeur, ni un seul directeur, ni un seul
commissaire.
Elle a bien réussi à dénicher deux parents
mécontents en Amérique du Nord : un à Montréal,
qui a retiré ses enfants dans les années 90, et
un autre à San Francisco, qui intente une
poursuite, sur un bassin de 165 écoles Waldorf.
Sur la base de quelques mécontentements de ce
genre, elle déclare en sous-titre que «les écoles
Waldorf soulèvent plus que leur part de
controverse en Amérique du Nord». S'il faut juger
de l'ampleur de ladite controverse à l'urgence
avec laquelle Le Devoir a publié son article,
soit 15 mois après sa rédaction, le mot
«controverse» est bien grand.
Puisqu'on me cite comme parent dans le bref
article de Pascal Lapointe publié dans la même
page («Un physicien parmi les parents»),
j'aimerais avoir la chance de combler un peu le
vide d'information. Mon offre de faire parvenir à
M. Lapointe toutes sortes d'information sur la
pédagogie Waldorf à la suite de notre entrevue
est restée sans réponse.
Les mathématiques
Sans jamais avoir visité une seule classe ou
échangé avec un seul professeur, Mme Roberge
tente de ridiculiser l'enseignement Waldorf. «Les
mathématiques sont également revues à travers le
tricot», se moque-t-elle. C'est vrai, quoi,
soyons sérieux ! Les mathématiques, c'est
scientifique. Comment le tricot, avec toutes ces
mailles et ces rangs qu'il faut aligner et
ajouter, pourrait-il bien aider un enfant à
apprendre les maths ? Et pourquoi pas la musique,
tant qu'à y être, avec toutes ces notes groupées
par gamme ? Et l'aquarelle, où on représenterait
les sept couleurs de l'arc-en-ciel ?
Et tandis qu'on y est, pourquoi ne pas ramener
toutes sortes de saletés de dehors, comme des
cailloux (qui contiennent peut-être de la pyrite
cubique), des branches (de pin blanc, à cinq
aiguilles), de la neige (des flocons à six
pointes) ou des bibittes (des araignées à huit
pattes) ? Et la danse, sorte de perte de temps
artistique, qui n'est qu'affaire d'harmonie, de
synchronie et de rythme ? Soyons sérieux !
Et si toutes ces manifestations mathématiques de
l'activité humaine et de la nature pouvaient
aider certains enfants, voire tous les enfants, à
apprendre de mille façons que les mathématiques
sont un reflet fondamental de la réalité qui les
entoure et non pas seulement une invention
abstraite des adultes ?
Comment le Québec va-t-il affronter le défi
gigantesque et pressant du décrochage en masse
des jeunes, qui frise actuellement 40 % chez les
garçons, si ce n'est en explorant des voies
pédagogiques alternatives ? Des milliers de
parents de par le monde choisissent de s'engager
dans une de ces voies alternatives, la pédagogie
Waldorf. C'est ce que ma conjointe et moi avons
fait en inscrivant nos deux enfants à l'école Les
Enfants de la Terre, l'école Waldorf de l'Estrie,
et en appuyant son développement le plus
activement possible. Des familles de partout
viennent s'installer dans la région pour la même
raison (le nombre d'élèves a triplé en cinq ans).
Nous croyons qu'en respectant le rythme de
développement de l'enfant (et de chaque enfant),
en favorisant le développement de toutes ses
facultés, et non pas seulement l'intellect, et en
travaillant à ce que les connaissances soient
enracinées dans la réalité, les enfants aimeront
apprendre. Cet intérêt est fondamental pour la
suite des études, pour la vie -- et c'est sans
doute un des meilleurs antidotes contre le
décrochage.
Et si c'est par les arts qu'on réussit le mieux à
éveiller cette curiosité chez le jeune enfant,
que ce soit du tricot, du modelage en cire
d'abeille, du jardinage, de l'artisanat ou des
travaux manuels -- autant d'approches ridicules
aux yeux de Mme Roberge --, eh bien, pourquoi pas
?
J'aimerais inviter les journalistes du journal Le
Devoir à contribuer de façon constructive et
approfondie à l'étude des voies pédagogiques
alternatives au Québec et à renseigner leurs
lecteurs sur la pédagogie Waldorf en faisant
appel aux gens qui en savent quelque chose.
http://www.ledevoir.com/2003/12/19/43217.html
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Les auteurs répondent - Waldorf : l'inconnu
Collectif
Isabelle Roberge, Pascal Lapointe et Isabelle Burgun - Agence Science-Presse
...dition du vendredi 19 décembre
(http://www.ledevoir.com/2003/12/19/index.html)
2003
Si la bonne volonté des parents n'est pas mise en
doute, il est permis de se poser des questions
sur la qualité de leurs renseignements lorsqu'ils
se prononcent sur les orientations pédagogiques
des écoles Waldorf et la prétendue absence de
l'anthroposophie (réincarnation, anges,
Atlantide... ). Car il y a bel et bien
anthroposophie, même si celle-ci n'est pas
inscrite noir sur blanc dans le programme: elle
sous-tend la raison même pour laquelle les écoles
Waldorf ont été créées, et il existe une
formation complémentaire de un à trois ans pour
les professeurs.
Nous n'avons pas trouvé «seulement» deux
mécontents à travers l'Amérique : nous avons
trouvé au moins deux poursuites en justice, un
site Internet (www.waldorfcritics.org)
rassemblant des milliers de mécontents, de
sceptiques et de critiques, ainsi que des
accusations de racisme étalées sur des décennies.
En réalité, le coeur de ce reportage est bien
simple : si un citoyen ne dispose pas de toute
l'information relative à une pédagogie et aux
philosophies qui la sous-tendent, peut-il décider
en connaissance de cause ? Les répliques des
parents ne permettent malheureusement pas de
trancher cette question.
http://www.ledevoir.com/2003/12/19/43215.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 18:02:59 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
--MS_Mac_OE_3158589779_27839_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Mark,
Hard to believe, I know, but your private Waldorf school is NOT the only
Waldorf school in the US.
In fact, there *are* publicly funded Waldorf schools ... they are called
"charter schoolsm" and they are paid for by taxpayer's money.
PLANS asserts that as religious schools, Waldorf schools cannot be publicly
funded because that is a violation of the Constitutional separation of
church and state.
PLANS also is concerned, however, about the habit many private Waldorf
schools have of not revealing their religious natures to the parents
enrolling their children.
Two issues, Mark. Do your homework, man.
Lisa
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 10:05:19 -0800 (PST)
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: RE: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
what you are saying makes sense then because Waldorf is funded by private
money
NOT public. I have looked into this and the Waldorf school is NOT paid by
our taxes but rather private tutition.
Therefore your argument holds no water.... Waldorf can do whaterver it wants
as it is not being funded by the gov't.
Your info is wrong about funding therefore all aguments dependent on it are
void.
Thx
Mark
Diana Winters (Diana.Winters verizon.net) wrote:
Mark Fitzpatrick wrote:
“’First, because public funding of Waldorf education violates the
Establishment Clause of our constitution.’
I don't get the violation here. What are considered ‘public funds’?
Parents money? Because they are paying tuition with after-tax income?”
No, Mark – public funds are tax money. “Public” schools in the US are
schools funded by tax money, not parents paying private tuition. The money
going there is NOT “after-tax income.” Everybody in the neighborhood is
paying for the local public schools, whether they have children attending
them or not, and whether they *want* to be paying for them or not. The
“Establishment Clause” refers to the constitutional separation of church and
state in the US. Public funds may not be spent to promote religion.
Religious schools promote religion to a captive audience – schoolchildren –
and thus in the US religious schools must be private schools; they are not
eligible for public funds. The local public school often serves families of
many different faiths, and in fairness to all of them the deal is that no
particular religion may be promoted by the state school. The overall purpose
is peace and tolerance – the state must not fund one religion because in
fairness it would then need to fund them all, or conflict would (does)
result. Ironically, the bottom line is that the US is very religious and
separation of church and state helps to *keep* it religious; separation of
church and state was originally intended to protect the freedom of every
religious sect, large and small (popular and unpopular) to worship as they
choose and provide religious instruction for their children as they see fit
(rather than having the public school teaching the kids something the
parents do not believe).
“The other part of this amendment is the Free Exercise Clause...
Freedom to have a Waldorf School.”
Yes, there is “Freedom to have a Waldorf school,” there is freedom to do
lots of things – you just can’t ask the government for the money to do it,
because the government is sworn to neutrality among all the hundreds of
different religions. Religious schools must be private institutions, paid
for by families of *that* religion and/or families to whom it is acceptable
to pay fees to the religious school. The problem with the tax money is that
nobody has a choice about whether to pay it.
Diana
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 21:54:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
Thanks Dan for the info....
what is this with so much credibility being weighted on things being verified
by scientific findings??
Where has science left us? We have alienated ourselves from the earth, nature and ourselves with science!
In our society we place so little emphasis on "gut", instinct, spirit and faith.
Dan ...these are all about that little voice in our that says this is right or this is ok...
without needing science to back it up. Science only serving to take away from an innate intelligence that we are all born with....and always have but ending losing touch with when society places to much pressure on us to think and process different. This process causes us to doubt our own instinct. Gut , spirit and instinct requires nil, absolutely nil science. Science , in this way is a hindrance, in coming to know the true sense fo reality, life and nature.
As such, Steiner likely felt that he needed to put a scientific bent on his beliefs and understandings to have others stand and listen. Does not make his findings and methids any less or more valuable and advantageous for child development.
When PLANS drops the need to have everything proven then made it will open their eyes to new ways of doing things. Do you really need to have proven to you that oxygen is good for you? I don't .....that is a built in intelligence of my organs...my brain, heart, liver, muscles all seem to just accept the wisdom WITHOUT NEEDING scientific proof to make it all right....
When you PLANS people get this ....maybe your will "get" Steiner and Waldorf.
Good luck
Mark
an.com) wrote:
Mark Fitzpatrick, you wrote,
)can you elaborate on this...
)"First, because public funding of Waldorf education violates the
)Establishment Clause of our constitution."
)
)I don't get the violation here. What are considered "public funds" ?
)Parents money? Because they are paying tuition with after-tax income?
There are three kinds of Waldorf school funding in the U.S. 1)
private schools, where the parents pay for everything; 2)
"Waldorf-inspired" charter schools, managed by an independent board
like a private school but funded by the state; 3) "Waldorf-method"
public schools managed by a public school board and funded by the
state. PLANS alleges that 2) and 3) violate the Establishment Clause.
)The other part of this amendment is the Free Exercise Clause...
)Freedom to have a Waldorf School.
PLANS' position on private Waldorf schools is that parents have every
right to give their children Waldorf education, but that they
shouldn't be defrauded by false claims made about it. When Waldorf
schools tell parents up front that it's a religious system, and stop
pretending that Steiner's child development theory is scientific,
PLANS will have no argument with them.
-Dan Dugan
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
---------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 22:01:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
and Dan...really put some effort into thinking about when did "we" stop
relying on our gut?
When we started seeing "scientific proof" as a God....that's when.
Gut's better
Mark
Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
Mark Fitzpatrick, you wrote,
)can you elaborate on this...
)"First, because public funding of Waldorf education violates the
)Establishment Clause of our constitution."
)
)I don't get the violation here. What are considered "public funds" ?
)Parents money? Because they are paying tuition with after-tax income?
There are three kinds of Waldorf school funding in the U.S. 1)
private schools, where the parents pay for everything; 2)
"Waldorf-inspired" charter schools, managed by an independent board
like a private school but funded by the state; 3) "Waldorf-method"
public schools managed by a public school board and funded by the
state. PLANS alleges that 2) and 3) violate the Establishment Clause.
)The other part of this amendment is the Free Exercise Clause...
)Freedom to have a Waldorf School.
PLANS' position on private Waldorf schools is that parents have every
right to give their children Waldorf education, but that they
shouldn't be defrauded by false claims made about it. When Waldorf
schools tell parents up front that it's a religious system, and stop
pretending that Steiner's child development theory is scientific,
PLANS will have no argument with them.
-Dan Dugan
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
---------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:52:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
--0-1460173012-1075783978=:72406
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Jan...
can you elaborate on what are houseparents?
and sepcial ed kids?
and apricate?
What year of journalism school are you in?
Mark
Jan-Christoph Kolb (Jan-Christoph_Kolb web.de) wrote:
p {margin: 0px}
Dear Dan, dear Deborah,
I'm a former Waldorf student, now studying journalism and writing my masters thesis on special ed in camphill communities. I would really like to get some input from waldorf critics on the steiner-based special ed. I would really apricate your comments and contacts. I'm specifically looking for former parents of sepcial ed kids, former camphill co-workers and houseparents.
best, Jan-Christoph
==^================================================================You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
______________________________________________________________________________
Erdbeben im Iran: Zehntausende Kinder brauchen Hilfe. UNICEF hilft den
Kindern - helfen Sie mit! https://www.unicef.de/spe/spe_03.php
---------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:59:03 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
Mark wrote:
)what you are saying makes sense then because Waldorf is funded by private
money
)NOT public. I have looked into this and the Waldorf school is NOT paid by
our taxes but rather private )tutition.
)Therefore your argument holds no water.... Waldorf can do whaterver it
wants as it is not being funded by the )gov't.
)Your info is wrong about funding therefore all aguments dependent on it are
void.
Mark, I'm not sure where you're located, or who you're asking for info, but
try again. There are about 150 Waldorf schools in the US, some public
(tax-funded) and some private (parent tuition-funded).
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 21:07:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Subject: doing your homework
Lisa ...
tell me ...why do you say it's hard to believe there are more Waldorf's in US?
It's almost common knowledge 900 or so are scattered around the world.
Second...Waldorf does not assert itself as a religious school....you assert that.
Does not make it true. Do your homework - sweetie.
Concerning your statement - "Two Issues, Mark. Do your homework, man."
What's the second issue in this directive?
1) is "do my homework, man"
2) second in this directive is where???
Lisa...I suggest you do your homework....your 2nd Grade math homework as it seem \s you failed the first time around. 1+1 =2 . 1 + nothing = 1. Adding is basic relates to logic...maybe your missing that also. Lisa - one issue - Do your homework man...( 2nd grade math that is.
Mark
"Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
Mark,
Hard to believe, I know, but your private Waldorf school is NOT the only Waldorf school in the US.
In fact, there *are* publicly funded Waldorf schools ... they are called "charter schoolsm" and they are paid for by taxpayer's money.
PLANS asserts that as religious schools, Waldorf schools cannot be publicly funded because that is a violation of the Constitutional separation of church and state.
PLANS also is concerned, however, about the habit many private Waldorf schools have of not revealing their religious natures to the parents enrolling their children.
Two issues, Mark. Do your homework, man.
Lisa
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 10:05:19 -0800 (PST)
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: RE: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
what you are saying makes sense then because Waldorf is funded by private money
NOT public. I have looked into this and the Waldorf school is NOT paid by our taxes but rather private tutition.
Therefore your argument holds no water.... Waldorf can do whaterver it wants as it is not being funded by the gov't.
Your info is wrong about funding therefore all aguments dependent on it are void.
Thx
Mark
Diana Winters (Diana.Winters verizon.net) wrote:
Mark Fitzpatrick wrote:
“’First, because public funding of Waldorf education violates the
Establishment Clause of our constitution.’
I don't get the violation here. What are considered ‘public funds’?
Parents money? Because they are paying tuition with after-tax income?”
No, Mark – public funds are tax money. “Public” schools in the US are schools funded by tax money, not parents paying private tuition. The money going there is NOT “after-tax income.” Everybody in the neighborhood is paying for the local public schools, whether they have children attending them or not, and whether they *want* to be paying for them or not. The “Establishment Clause” refers to the constitutional separation of church and state in the US. Public funds may not be spent to promote religion. Religious schools promote religion to a captive audience – schoolchildren – and thus in the US religious schools must be private schools; they are not eligible for public funds. The local public school often serves families of many different faiths, and in fairness to all of them the deal is that no particular religion may be promoted by the state school. The overall purpose is peace and tolerance – the state must not fund one religion because in fairness it would then need to fund them
all, or conflict would (does) result. Ironically, the bottom line is that the US is very religious and separation of church and state helps to *keep* it religious; separation of church and state was originally intended to protect the freedom of every religious sect, large and small (popular and unpopular) to worship as they choose and provide religious instruction for their children as they see fit (rather than having the public school teaching the kids something the parents do not believe).
“The other part of this amendment is the Free Exercise Clause...
Freedom to have a Waldorf School.”
Yes, there is “Freedom to have a Waldorf school,” there is freedom to do lots of things – you just can’t ask the government for the money to do it, because the government is sworn to neutrality among all the hundreds of different religions. Religious schools must be private institutions, paid for by families of *that* religion and/or families to whom it is acceptable to pay fees to the religious school. The problem with the tax money is that nobody has a choice about whether to pay it.
Diana
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
==^================================================================You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
---------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 00:03:18 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Critics are a wrecking ball swinging against humanity
And now for something completely... similar.
Hey Diana - now the critics are on crack.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/1631
"I mean, are these people on crack???"
-Christine
This fascinating little thread at Anthroposophy Tomorrow was sparked when
Tarjei posted a relatively mild Sharon (critic) quote - from years ago at
the Critics list - about Steiner-the-guru.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:43:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
--0-1819305247-1075783394=:6023
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
thanks
Gideon Mills (gideonmills yahoo.com) wrote:
Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com) wrote: " I have looked into this and the Waldorf school is NOT paid by our taxes but rather private tutition."
Schools that are chartered through a public school are supported by public monies. Therefore, if a Waldorf school is a charter school it is publically funded and must not violate federal or state laws governing public schools.
Deborah
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 23:02:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
--0-1977302277-1075791758=:69255
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
i am learning mark
Diana Winters (Diana.Winters verizon.net) wrote:
Mark wrote:
)what you are saying makes sense then because Waldorf is funded by private money
)NOT public. I have looked into this and the Waldorf school is NOT paid by our taxes but rather private )tutition.
)Therefore your argument holds no water.... Waldorf can do whaterver it wants as it is not being funded by the )gov't.
)Your info is wrong about funding therefore all aguments dependent on it are void.
Mark, I’m not sure where you’re located, or who you’re asking for info, but try again. There are about 150 Waldorf schools in the US, some public (tax-funded) and some private (parent tuition-funded).
Diana
==^================================================================You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 23:02:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Why don't you guys just walk away...?
i am learning mark
Diana Winters (Diana.Winters verizon.net) wrote:
Mark wrote:
)what you are saying makes sense then because Waldorf is funded by private money
)NOT public. I have looked into this and the Waldorf school is NOT paid by our taxes but rather private )tutition.
)Therefore your argument holds no water.... Waldorf can do whaterver it wants as it is not being funded by the )gov't.
)Your info is wrong about funding therefore all aguments dependent on it are void.
Mark, I’m not sure where you’re located, or who you’re asking for info, but try again. There are about 150 Waldorf schools in the US, some public (tax-funded) and some private (parent tuition-funded).
Diana
==^================================================================You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:46:15 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: Re: camphill and special ed
Mark Fitzpatrick, you wrote:
)can you elaborate on what are houseparents?
)and sepcial ed kids?
)and apricate?
)
)What year of journalism school are you in?
In order not to distract the conversation into personal squabbles and
put-downs, we avoid ad-hominem arguments. It's best just to ignore
spelling and grammar and stick to the topic being discussed.
-Dan Dugan
Moderator
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1245
-- Topica Digest --
Re: camphill and special ed
By dan dandugan.com
RE: camphill and special ed
By jaquesdm msn.com
Re: camphill and special ed
By momof2gals mindspring.com
re: Mark and homework
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: camphill and special ed
By momof2gals mindspring.com
once more on science
By pstaud hotmail.com
[NNA] Ruling in legal dispute over existence of "General
Anthroposophical Socie
By dan dandugan.com
Re: camphill and special ed
By antigonabaires hotmail.com
Re: camphill and special ed
By jk2332 columbia.edu
Re: camphill and special ed
By fitzcandoservices yahoo.com
Re: camphill and special ed
By fitzcandoservices yahoo.com
Re: camphill and special ed
By jk2332 columbia.edu
Re: camphill and special ed
By jk2332 columbia.edu
re: Mark and homework
By fitzcandoservices yahoo.com
Re: camphill and special ed
By fitzcandoservices yahoo.com
Re: camphill and special ed
By fitzcandoservices yahoo.com
RE: camphill and special ed
By jk2332 columbia.edu
Re: camphill and special ed
By antigonabaires hotmail.com
Re: camphill and special ed
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: camphill and special ed
By momof2gals mindspring.com
RE: camphill and special ed
By jaquesdm msn.com
RE: camphill and special ed
By jk2332 columbia.edu
reporting on Camphill/was Camphill and special ed
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: camphill and special ed
By fitzcandoservices yahoo.com
Re: camphill and special ed
By fitzcandoservices yahoo.com
RE: camphill and special ed
By fitzcandoservices yahoo.com
Re: once more on science
By fitzcandoservices yahoo.com
RE: camphill and special ed
By jaquesdm msn.com
Re: camphill and special ed
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:41:07 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
Jan-Christoph Kolb wrote:
)I'm a former Waldorf student, now studying journalism and writing my
)masters thesis on special ed in camphill communities. I would really
)like to get some input from waldorf critics on the steiner-based
)special ed. I would really apricate your comments and contacts. I'm
)specifically looking for former parents of sepcial ed kids, former
)camphill co-workers and houseparents.
I think there are some here. Try asking your questions.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 12:18:11 +0000
From: David Dodds (jaquesdm msn.com)
Subject: RE: camphill and special ed
Jan-Christoph Kolb wrote:
)
) p {margin: 0px}Dear Dan, dear Deborah, I'm a former Waldorf student, now
) studying journalism and writing my masters thesis on special ed in
) camphill communities. I would really like to get some input from waldorf
) critics on the steiner-based special ed. I would really apricate your
) comments and contacts. I'm specifically looking for former parents of
) sepcial ed kids, former camphill co-workers and houseparents. best,
) Jan-Christoph
) Hello Jan-Christoph,
I am a former co-worker, onetime called Houseparent. My own exposure to
anthroposophy was in the adult residential area, in an independent
anthro community. How may I help?
Davy
________________________________________________________________Erdbeben
im Iran: Zehntausende Kinder brauchen Hilfe. UNICEF hilft denKindern -
helfen Sie mit! https://www.unicef.de/spe/spe_03.php
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 08:17:03 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
--MS_Mac_OE_3158641023_144374_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Mark, I would advise you (and I mean this sincerely) not to make fun of
others spelling, etc. unless your own sentence structure, punctuation, etc.
are perfect.
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:52:58 -0800 (PST)
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
Jan...
can you elaborate on what are houseparents?
and sepcial ed kids?
and apricate?
What year of journalism school are you in?
Mark
Jan-Christoph Kolb (Jan-Christoph_Kolb web.de) wrote:
p {margin: 0px}
Dear Dan, dear Deborah,
I'm a former Waldorf student, now studying journalism and writing my masters
thesis on special ed in camphill communities. I would really like to get
some input from waldorf critics on the steiner-based special ed. I would
really apricate your comments and contacts. I'm specifically looking for
former parents of sepcial ed kids, former camphill co-workers and
houseparents.
best,
Jan-Christoph==^============================================================
====
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always
welcome.____________________________________________________________________
__________
Erdbeben im Iran: Zehntausende Kinder brauchen Hilfe. UNICEF hilft den
Kindern - helfen Sie mit! https://www.unicef.de/spe/spe_03.php
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 08:14:51 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: re: Mark and homework
) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
--MS_Mac_OE_3158640891_136426_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Member Mark stated that the critics' assertion that public money is being
spent on Waldorf schools was wrong, so I and others here pointed out to him
that in addition to private Waldorf schools (such as the one my daughter
attended) there also are *public* Waldorf schools opened as charters.
I suggested that Mark do his homework, meaning he ought to research the
topic a little more thoroughly before making blanket statements. (Gary
suggested the same thing, only in more polite terms! (g)
Mark then says:
((tell me ...why do you say it's hard to believe there are more Waldorf's in
US?
It's almost common knowledge 900 or so are scattered around the world.).
Lisa: Huh? I don't find it "hard to believe" that there are a number of
Waldorf schools -- public and private -- in the US and around the world.
Did I say that I didn't believe that?
No, I did not. I said that there are both private Waldorf schools (those
funded by parents' tuition and, I would surmise, funds from varous
Anthroposophic endeavors here and abroad) and *public* Waldorf schools,
which opened as something called "charter schools."
Believe me, Mark: I fully understand not only that there are "900 or
so" of these magical mystery schools scattered around the globe, with a
heavy concentration in Europe and Scandinavia.
Mark then says: ((Second...Waldorf does not assert itself as a religious
school....you assert that.
Does not make it true. Do your homework - sweetie.))
Lisa: How did you know that I am partial to the term "sweetie?" (g) In fact,
I *have* done my homework; I have spent the last 4+ years not only reading
Steiner lectures and every book about Waldorf education that I can lay my
hands on (and some I cannot ... but which are available through the Steiner
eLib), but also discussing Waldorf and other Anthroposophic endeavors
(Triodos bank, Camphill, etc.) with people all over the globe via internet
discussion lists. I am sad to report that these people daily apply to become
part of the Waldorf Survivors Only email discussion list, which has more
than 80 members from around the world already. These people either attended
or had children who attended many, many different Waldorf schools the world
over, yet their stories (and very bad experiences) are eerily similar.
Now, about Waldorf being religious. Mark, even Waldorf *insiders* and
*teachers* admit that Waldorf schools are religious, though they only admit
that amongst themselves. The noteable exception (which caused quite a stir
in the Waldorf world) was when master Waldorf teacher Eugene Schwartz said
in a public lecture that Waldorf schools are religious and that he
personally sent his own daughter to one so she could have "one religious
experience after another."
Anthroposophy forms the spine, muscles, sinew and tendon of Waldorf:
almost everything about a Waldorf school -- from the colors of the classroom
walls to the stories the children hear to what snack they eat on what day to
the way they learn to paint and draw -- is dictated by the tenets of
Anthroposophy.
I am not surprised that you don't believe that yet, however. Back when I
was in your shoes (an enthusiastic parent of a young child at Waldorf), I,
too, bought Waldorf's claim of being non religious and progressive hook,
line and sinker. (It was easy to buy. First of all, I *wanted* to believe
that I had found this perfect, utopian school for my child -- a place where
her creativity and individuality would not be squished under a load of
standardized testing and forced, early intellectualization. Second, Waldorf
schools generally do a terrific job of hiding the esoteric and religious
stuff from parents behind a more plausible sounding explanation. A parent
asks "why must the children use those rounded, block crayons to draw?" and
the teacher will calmly explain "they are easier for children to hold than
the stick crayons," when, in reality, Waldorf teachers generally adhere to
Steiner's dictum that lines do not exist, that they are a lie and that
drawing them is not conducive to healthy spiritual development in children.
It's very hard for most parents to twig onto the Anthro. reality of what is
right in front of them both because the teachers generally hide it so well
and because the Anthro explanation sounds so bizarre, crazy and far fetched
that the parent might not believe it right away even if the teacher was
brave enough to explain it.
Mark, with all due respect, I wish you would take the time to read
through the PLANS website -- at least read the transcript of Eugene
Schwartz's public lecture on this very topic. This man is a master Waldorf
teacher, a leader in the Waldorf movement, the author of a book considered
essential for Waldorf teachers, and HE admits Waldorf is religious. It
stands to reason that he knows more about Waldorf than you do; after all, it
is his livelihood. Why not read what he said?
Mark then said:
Concerning your statement - "Two Issues, Mark. Do your homework, man."
What's the second issue in this directive?
1) is "do my homework, man"
2) second in this directive is where???
Lisa...I suggest you do your homework....your 2nd Grade math homework as it
seem \s you failed the first time around. 1+1 =2 . 1 + nothing = 1. Adding
is basic relates to logic...maybe your missing that also. Lisa - one issue -
Do your homework man...( 2nd grade math that is.))
Lisa: Very funny. I appreciate your humor. The "directive" was for you to do
a little reading and research on the topic we all are discussing. After all,
you stated with great conviction that Waldorf schools do NOT receive public
funding, when they do. That is incontrovertible. It's a fact. Yet you denied
it because you simply did not have that information.
I simply directed you (suggested!) that you bone up a bit on the topic.
If you don't do so, well, then it will be easy for those of us who have to
dismiss your arguments, and I am sure you do not want that to happen.
As for your assertions about my math skills, logic, etc.: well, I think I
will leave that alone for now. In my experience, such gratuitious insults
often take the place of actual reason and facts in an argument.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 08:17:33 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
--MS_Mac_OE_3158641053_146180_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Also, I believe this individual's first language is German. He is writing to
us in English. Have some decency and respect, please.
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:52:58 -0800 (PST)
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
Jan...
can you elaborate on what are houseparents?
and sepcial ed kids?
and apricate?
What year of journalism school are you in?
Mark
Jan-Christoph Kolb (Jan-Christoph_Kolb web.de) wrote:
p {margin: 0px}
Dear Dan, dear Deborah,
I'm a former Waldorf student, now studying journalism and writing my masters
thesis on special ed in camphill communities. I would really like to get
some input from waldorf critics on the steiner-based special ed. I would
really apricate your comments and contacts. I'm specifically looking for
former parents of sepcial ed kids, former camphill co-workers and
houseparents.
best,
Jan-Christoph==^============================================================
====
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always
welcome.____________________________________________________________________
__________
Erdbeben im Iran: Zehntausende Kinder brauchen Hilfe. UNICEF hilft den
Kindern - helfen Sie mit! https://www.unicef.de/spe/spe_03.php
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 10:22:13 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: once more on science
I think Mark Fitzpatrick got one thing right:
)Steiner likely felt that he needed to put a scientific bent on his beliefs
)and understandings to have others stand and listen.
That sounds fairly accurate to me. The question, of course, remains: in
light of the strong antagonism toward science among anthroposophists today,
why do so many of them continue to insist that their worldview constitutes a
science of its own? I think this puzzle has less to do with disagreements
among contemporary anthroposophists and more to do with Steiner's
ambivalence on the topic of 'science'. This original ambivalence seems to
have left fans of anthroposophical thinking in an interesting bind,
simultaneously claiming scientific status for their own beliefs while
deprecating science as a hindrance to true knowledge of the cosmos and a
primary source of alienation. Thus many of them still view critical inquiry
as sacrilege, psychic violence, or an instance of Ahrimanic deception.
Another of the difficulties in trying to talk with anthroposophists.
Peter S.
)Where has science left us? We have alienated ourselves from the earth,
)nature and ourselves with science!
)Science only serving to take away from an innate intelligence that we are
)all born with....and always have but ending losing touch with when society
)places to much pressure on us to think and process different. This process
)causes us to doubt our own instinct. Gut , spirit and instinct requires
)nil, absolutely nil science. Science , in this way is a hindrance, in
)coming to know the true sense fo reality, life and nature.
_________________________________________________________________
Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software — optimizes dial-up to the max!
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST=1
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 09:34:13 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: [NNA] Ruling in legal dispute over existence of "General
Anthroposophical Society (Christmas Conference)" expected by end of week
Copyright 2004 News Network Anthroposophy Limited. All rights reserved.
The following material may be republished without the prior consent
of News Network Anthroposophy. News Network Anthroposophy does,
however, require acknowledgement of the source and, if provided, the
author of the material.
+ + + + +
NNA-N E W S
Ruling in legal dispute over existence of "General Anthroposophical
Society (Christmas Conference)" expected by end of week
Dornach, 3 February (NNA) - In a marathon session lasting more than
eleven hours, the Dorneck-Thierstein district court in Switzerland
yesterday heard the case disputing the legal existence of the
"General Anthroposophical Society (Christmas Conference)".
The summary judgement is expected by the end of the week with a
detailed ruling following about a month later.
The outcome of the case will also determine whether the extraordinary
general meeting of the Christmas Conference 2002 is allowed to stand
and whether the resolutions adopted at the general meetings last
November with regard to the planned fusion of the "General
Anthroposophical Society" (GAS) and the "General Anthroposophical
Society (Christmas Conference)" can enter into force.
While the "Gelebte Weihnachtstagung" grouping disputes the continued
separate existence of the Christmas Conference society because it
became one in February 1925 with the administrative Building
Association which then continued under the name of General
Anthroposophical Society, another group of plaintiffs associated with
Andreas Wilke and Karl Buchleitner claims that the Christmas
Conference society ceased to exist altogether and only remains as a
historical event.
END/cva
+ + + + +
Item reference number: N040203-01EN
Date: 3 February 2004
More NNA reports at: http://www.nna-news.org/content/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:53:42 -0300
From: (antigonabaires hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C3EA7E.A9268A40
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Re: camphill and special edLisa wrote:
"Also, I believe this individual's first language is German. He is writing to us in English. Have some decency and respect, please."
I agree with Lisa in every respect. I am a foreigner myself and I hate that arrogant attitude. Even if his grammar and spelling were perfect in every possible language.
Warm (literally!) regards from Buenos Aires
Agustina
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:34:24 -0500
From: Jan-Christoph Kolb (jk2332 columbia.edu)
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
Que te paso a ti?
Como podia saber que hablan aleman. No tengo ni idea de donde son.
Para saber, puedas escribirme en aleman, ingles y tambien en
espanol, portena. Vivia en Cordoba!!!!!
Tranquilizate, vos sos la que es orgullosa.
Chris
--
Graduate School of Journalism Columbia University
Jan-Christoph Kolb
530 W 112th St.
New York, NY 10025
Tel: 1 646 234 0565
Quoting antigonabaires hotmail.com:
) Re: camphill and special edLisa wrote:
)
) "Also, I believe this individual's first language is German. He
) is writing to us in English. Have some decency and respect,
) please."
)
) I agree with Lisa in every respect. I am a foreigner myself and I
) hate that arrogant attitude. Even if his grammar and spelling
) were perfect in every possible language.
) Warm (literally!) regards from Buenos Aires
) Agustina
)
)
==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter
) how basic. New threads are always welcome.
-
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 16:37:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
--0-1006060582-1075855055=:48652
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I have visited Brazil for 3 months...I know about respect... I took the the time to respect the Brazilian by learning and speaking Portuguese.
So don't tell me about respect. Respect is, if your are going to be a journalist, take the time to learn spelling and grammar.
antigonabaires hotmail.com wrote:
Lisa wrote:
"Also, I believe this individual's first language is German. He is writing to us in English. Have some decency and respect, please."
I agree with Lisa in every respect. I am a foreigner myself and I hate that arrogant attitude. Even if his grammar and spelling were perfect in every possible language.
Warm (literally!) regards from Buenos Aires
Agustina
==^================================================================You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:02:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
--0-1732788200-1075856524=:83000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Como esta? Tudo bem? Tudo Bem.
Fala Portuguese, Sim? Fala espanol?
Muito prazer em conhece-lo.
Tenho muito bom a dia!
Marcos
Certified iNet Webmaster - Sysoft
Masters Comp Sci - NJIT
Experienced Developer ( 10 years )
Jan-Christoph Kolb (jk2332 columbia.edu) wrote:
Que te paso a ti?
Como podia saber que hablan aleman. No tengo ni idea de donde son.
Para saber, puedas escribirme en aleman, ingles y tambien en
espanol, portena. Vivia en Cordoba!!!!!
Tranquilizate, vos sos la que es orgullosa.
Chris
--
Graduate School of Journalism Columbia University
Jan-Christoph Kolb
530 W 112th St.
New York, NY 10025
Tel: 1 646 234 0565
Quoting antigonabaires hotmail.com:
) Re: camphill and special edLisa wrote:
)
) "Also, I believe this individual's first language is German. He
) is writing to us in English. Have some decency and respect,
) please."
)
) I agree with Lisa in every respect. I am a foreigner myself and I
) hate that arrogant attitude. Even if his grammar and spelling
) were perfect in every possible language.
) Warm (literally!) regards from Buenos Aires
) Agustina
)
)
==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter
) how basic. New threads are always welcome.
-
)
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 20:05:28 -0500
From: Jan-Christoph Kolb (jk2332 columbia.edu)
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
Mark,
Sprecht Ihr nun Englisch, Deutsch oder irgenwelche andere Sprachen?
Die Webseite ist in Englisch, also gehe ich davon aus, dass man in
Englisch kommuniziert. Mir ist das natuerlich total egal. Ich bin
nur auf der Suche nach enttaeuschten Waldorf Lehrern und Eltern,
die schlechte Erfahrungen mit Anthroposophischen
Behinderteneinrichtungen gemacht haben.
Gruss, Jan-Christoph
--
Graduate School of Journalism Columbia University
Jan-Christoph Kolb
530 W 112th St.
New York, NY 10025
Tel: 1 646 234 0565
Quoting "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com):
) Also, I believe this individual's first language is German. He is
) writing to
) us in English. Have some decency and respect, please.
)
) From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:52:58 -0800 (PST)
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
)
)
) Jan...
)
) can you elaborate on what are houseparents?
) and sepcial ed kids?
) and apricate?
)
) What year of journalism school are you in?
)
) Mark
)
) Jan-Christoph Kolb (Jan-Christoph_Kolb web.de) wrote:
) p {margin: 0px}
)
) Dear Dan, dear Deborah,
)
) I'm a former Waldorf student, now studying journalism and writing
) my masters
) thesis on special ed in camphill communities. I would really like
) to get
) some input from waldorf critics on the steiner-based special ed.
) I would
) really apricate your comments and contacts. I'm specifically
) looking for
) former parents of sepcial ed kids, former camphill co-workers
) and
) houseparents.
)
)
)
) best,
) Jan-
Christoph==^========================================================
====
) ====
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter
) how basic.
) New threads are always
)
welcome.____________________________________________________________
________
) __________
) Erdbeben im Iran: Zehntausende Kinder brauchen Hilfe. UNICEF
) hilft den
) Kindern - helfen Sie mit! https://www.unicef.de/spe/spe_03.php
)
)
)
) Do you Yahoo!?
) Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
)
)
==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter
) how basic. New threads are always welcome.
-
)
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 20:07:34 -0500
From: Jan-Christoph Kolb (jk2332 columbia.edu)
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
oi, no fala portuguese
todo ligao?
Si, converso en espanol.
Chris
--
Graduate School of Journalism Columbia University
Jan-Christoph Kolb
530 W 112th St.
New York, NY 10025
Tel: 1 646 234 0565
Quoting Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com):
) Como esta? Tudo bem? Tudo Bem.
) Fala Portuguese, Sim? Fala espanol?
) Muito prazer em conhece-lo.
)
) Tenho muito bom a dia!
)
) Marcos
) Certified iNet Webmaster - Sysoft
) Masters Comp Sci - NJIT
) Experienced Developer ( 10 years )
)
)
)
) Jan-Christoph Kolb (jk2332 columbia.edu) wrote:
) Que te paso a ti?
) Como podia saber que hablan aleman. No tengo ni idea de donde
) son.
) Para saber, puedas escribirme en aleman, ingles y tambien en
) espanol, portena. Vivia en Cordoba!!!!!
) Tranquilizate, vos sos la que es orgullosa.
)
) Chris
) --
) Graduate School of Journalism Columbia University
) Jan-Christoph Kolb
) 530 W 112th St.
) New York, NY 10025
) Tel: 1 646 234 0565
)
)
) Quoting antigonabaires hotmail.com:
)
) ) Re: camphill and special edLisa wrote:
) )
) ) "Also, I believe this individual's first language is German.
) He
) ) is writing to us in English. Have some decency and respect,
) ) please."
) )
) ) I agree with Lisa in every respect. I am a foreigner myself and
) I
) ) hate that arrogant attitude. Even if his grammar and spelling
) ) were perfect in every possible language.
) ) Warm (literally!) regards from Buenos Aires
) ) Agustina
) )
) )
)
==^================================================================
) ) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no
) matter
) ) how basic. New threads are always welcome.
) -
) )
)
)
==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter
) how basic. New threads are always welcome.
)
)
) ---------------------------------
) Do you Yahoo!?
) Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
)
)
==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter
) how basic. New threads are always welcome.
-
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:12:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Subject: re: Mark and homework
--0-348187060-1075857169=:88325
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
ok.
Member Mark stated that the critics' assertion that public money is being spent on Waldorf schools was wrong, so I and others here pointed out to him that in addition to private Waldorf schools (such as the one my daughter attended) there also are *public* Waldorf schools opened as charters.
I suggested that Mark do his homework, meaning he ought to research the topic a little more thoroughly before making blanket statements. (Gary suggested the same thing, only in more polite terms! (g)
Mark then says:
((tell me ...why do you say it's hard to believe there are more Waldorf's in US?
It's almost common knowledge 900 or so are scattered around the world.).
Lisa: Huh? I don't find it "hard to believe" that there are a number of Waldorf schools -- public and private -- in the US and around the world.
Did I say that I didn't believe that?
No, I did not. I said that there are both private Waldorf schools (those funded by parents' tuition and, I would surmise, funds from varous Anthroposophic endeavors here and abroad) and *public* Waldorf schools, which opened as something called "charter schools."
Believe me, Mark: I fully understand not only that there are "900 or so" of these magical mystery schools scattered around the globe, with a heavy concentration in Europe and Scandinavia.
Mark then says: ((Second...Waldorf does not assert itself as a religious school....you assert that.
Does not make it true. Do your homework - sweetie.))
Lisa: How did you know that I am partial to the term "sweetie?" (g) In fact, I *have* done my homework; I have spent the last 4+ years not only reading Steiner lectures and every book about Waldorf education that I can lay my hands on (and some I cannot ... but which are available through the Steiner eLib), but also discussing Waldorf and other Anthroposophic endeavors (Triodos bank, Camphill, etc.) with people all over the globe via internet discussion lists. I am sad to report that these people daily apply to become part of the Waldorf Survivors Only email discussion list, which has more than 80 members from around the world already. These people either attended or had children who attended many, many different Waldorf schools the world over, yet their stories (and very bad experiences) are eerily similar.
Now, about Waldorf being religious. Mark, even Waldorf *insiders* and *teachers* admit that Waldorf schools are religious, though they only admit that amongst themselves. The noteable exception (which caused quite a stir in the Waldorf world) was when master Waldorf teacher Eugene Schwartz said in a public lecture that Waldorf schools are religious and that he personally sent his own daughter to one so she could have "one religious experience after another."
Anthroposophy forms the spine, muscles, sinew and tendon of Waldorf: almost everything about a Waldorf school -- from the colors of the classroom walls to the stories the children hear to what snack they eat on what day to the way they learn to paint and draw -- is dictated by the tenets of Anthroposophy.
I am not surprised that you don't believe that yet, however. Back when I was in your shoes (an enthusiastic parent of a young child at Waldorf), I, too, bought Waldorf's claim of being non religious and progressive hook, line and sinker. (It was easy to buy. First of all, I *wanted* to believe that I had found this perfect, utopian school for my child -- a place where her creativity and individuality would not be squished under a load of standardized testing and forced, early intellectualization. Second, Waldorf schools generally do a terrific job of hiding the esoteric and religious stuff from parents behind a more plausible sounding explanation. A parent asks "why must the children use those rounded, block crayons to draw?" and the teacher will calmly explain "they are easier for children to hold than the stick crayons," when, in reality, Waldorf teachers generally adhere to Steiner's dictum that lines do not exist, that they are a lie and that drawing them is not conducive to
healthy spiritual development in children. It's very hard for most parents to twig onto the Anthro. reality of what is right in front of them both because the teachers generally hide it so well and because the Anthro explanation sounds so bizarre, crazy and far fetched that the parent might not believe it right away even if the teacher was brave enough to explain it.
Mark, with all due respect, I wish you would take the time to read through the PLANS website -- at least read the transcript of Eugene Schwartz's public lecture on this very topic. This man is a master Waldorf teacher, a leader in the Waldorf movement, the author of a book considered essential for Waldorf teachers, and HE admits Waldorf is religious. It stands to reason that he knows more about Waldorf than you do; after all, it is his livelihood. Why not read what he said?
Mark then said:
Concerning your statement - "Two Issues, Mark. Do your homework, man."
What's the second issue in this directive?
1) is "do my homework, man"
2) second in this directive is where???
Lisa...I suggest you do your homework....your 2nd Grade math homework as it seem \s you failed the first time around. 1+1 =2 . 1 + nothing = 1. Adding is basic relates to logic...maybe your missing that also. Lisa - one issue - Do your homework man...( 2nd grade math that is.))
Lisa: Very funny. I appreciate your humor. The "directive" was for you to do a little reading and research on the topic we all are discussing. After all, you stated with great conviction that Waldorf schools do NOT receive public funding, when they do. That is incontrovertible. It's a fact. Yet you denied it because you simply did not have that information.
I simply directed you (suggested!) that you bone up a bit on the topic. If you don't do so, well, then it will be easy for those of us who have to dismiss your arguments, and I am sure you do not want that to happen.
As for your assertions about my math skills, logic, etc.: well, I think I will leave that alone for now. In my experience, such gratuitious insults often take the place of actual reason and facts in an argument.
==^================================================================You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:14:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
i did not ask for your advice...but thanks.
offer advice when asked for.
Mark
"Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
Mark, I would advise you (and I mean this sincerely) not to make fun of others spelling, etc. unless your own sentence structure, punctuation, etc. are perfect.
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:52:58 -0800 (PST)
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
Jan...
can you elaborate on what are houseparents?
and sepcial ed kids?
and apricate?
What year of journalism school are you in?
Mark
Jan-Christoph Kolb (Jan-Christoph_Kolb web.de) wrote:
p {margin: 0px}
Dear Dan, dear Deborah,
I'm a former Waldorf student, now studying journalism and writing my masters thesis on special ed in camphill communities. I would really like to get some input from waldorf critics on the steiner-based special ed. I would really apricate your comments and contacts. I'm specifically looking for former parents of sepcial ed kids, former camphill co-workers and houseparents.
best, Jan-Christoph==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.______________________________________________________________________________
Erdbeben im Iran: Zehntausende Kinder brauchen Hilfe. UNICEF hilft den
Kindern - helfen Sie mit! https://www.unicef.de/spe/spe_03.php
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
==^================================================================You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:15:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
see my prev post...
second....what are houseparents?
sincerely
mark
"Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
Also, I believe this individual's first language is German. He is writing to us in English. Have some decency and respect, please.
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:52:58 -0800 (PST)
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
Jan...
can you elaborate on what are houseparents?
and sepcial ed kids?
and apricate?
What year of journalism school are you in?
Mark
Jan-Christoph Kolb (Jan-Christoph_Kolb web.de) wrote:
p {margin: 0px}
Dear Dan, dear Deborah,
I'm a former Waldorf student, now studying journalism and writing my masters thesis on special ed in camphill communities. I would really like to get some input from waldorf critics on the steiner-based special ed. I would really apricate your comments and contacts. I'm specifically looking for former parents of sepcial ed kids, former camphill co-workers and houseparents.
best, Jan-Christoph==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.______________________________________________________________________________
Erdbeben im Iran: Zehntausende Kinder brauchen Hilfe. UNICEF hilft den
Kindern - helfen Sie mit! https://www.unicef.de/spe/spe_03.php
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
==^================================================================You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 20:27:04 -0500
From: Jan-Christoph Kolb (jk2332 columbia.edu)
Subject: RE: camphill and special ed
Hi David,
Finally some constructive response beyond the sad and childish
antics of some replies.
David, I was a co-worker, too and left with a deep feeling of
appreciation but more so, a suitcase full of nagging questions.
Recently, I have visisted a Camphill here in the U.S. and despite
the apparent change in terms of decision-making and the take-over
by a younger, less dogmatic generation of co-workers, the whole
appraoch seems problematic.
1. Integration yes, but does it have to take place behind the
closed doors of a rural community?
2. Does the mental stress endured, inhibit the development of those
with special needs?
3. Indeed, does the stress create resentments on behalf of the co-
workers?
4. What about the therapies? Despite some positive effects I have
seen, there seems to be a kind of laissez-faire approach.
5. Are Camphill kids or young adults really apt to survive outside
the fairytale world of wood-carving and story-telling? Can they
fill out a disbility claim?
I would like to interview you over the phone, you can call me under
646 234 0565 or send me your number.
kind regards, Jan-Christoph
--
Graduate School of Journalism Columbia University
Jan-Christoph Kolb
530 W 112th St.
New York, NY 10025
Tel: 1 646 234 0565
Quoting David Dodds (jaquesdm msn.com):
)
) Jan-Christoph Kolb wrote:
) )
) ) p {margin: 0px}Dear Dan, dear Deborah, I'm a former Waldorf
) student, now
) ) studying journalism and writing my masters thesis on special ed
) in
) ) camphill communities. I would really like to get some input
) from waldorf
) ) critics on the steiner-based special ed. I would really
) apricate your
) ) comments and contacts. I'm specifically looking for former
) parents of
) ) sepcial ed kids, former camphill co-workers and
) houseparents. best,
) ) Jan-Christoph
)
)
) ) Hello Jan-Christoph,
) I am a former co-worker, onetime called Houseparent. My own
) exposure to
) anthroposophy was in the adult residential area, in an
) independent
) anthro community. How may I help?
) Davy
)
________________________________________________________________Erdb
eben
)
) im Iran: Zehntausende Kinder brauchen Hilfe. UNICEF hilft
) denKindern -
) helfen Sie mit! https://www.unicef.de/spe/spe_03.php
) )
)
)
==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter
) how basic. New threads are always welcome.
-
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:18:53 -0300
From: (antigonabaires hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
Well, well, I think this has gone completely off topic.
I must say it was you, Chris, who didn't understand my message. I meant to
say that, in my humble opinion, Mark's questions regarding spelling and such
were not kind to YOU.
Besides, this is not a contest about who's been to more countries, who can
speak more languages and who is the most sympathethic to foreigners and
aliens. I don't think it is polite to post messages in languages other than
English (unless, of course, it is a quote) since by joining this list we
have tacitly agreed to use English, which we all understand. I am sure many
of us here are fluent in more than one language but I don't recall anyone's
boasting about such qualifications if that fact did not help to the
understanding of Waldorf or anthroposophy. After all, that's what we are all
here for, isn't it?
And I suggest you moderate your tone about calling anyone "porteña" the way
you are doing it here.
Regards,
Agustina
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jan-Christoph Kolb" (jk2332 columbia.edu)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
) Que te paso a ti?
) Como podia saber que hablan aleman. No tengo ni idea de donde son.
) Para saber, puedas escribirme en aleman, ingles y tambien en
) espanol, portena. Vivia en Cordoba!!!!!
) Tranquilizate, vos sos la que es orgullosa.
)
) Chris
) --
) Graduate School of Journalism Columbia University
) Jan-Christoph Kolb
) 530 W 112th St.
) New York, NY 10025
) Tel: 1 646 234 0565
)
)
) Quoting antigonabaires hotmail.com:
)
) ) Re: camphill and special edLisa wrote:
) )
) ) "Also, I believe this individual's first language is German. He
) ) is writing to us in English. Have some decency and respect,
) ) please."
) )
) ) I agree with Lisa in every respect. I am a foreigner myself and I
) ) hate that arrogant attitude. Even if his grammar and spelling
) ) were perfect in every possible language.
) ) Warm (literally!) regards from Buenos Aires
) ) Agustina
) )
) )
) ==^================================================================
) ) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter
) ) how basic. New threads are always welcome.
) -
) )
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 21:38:23 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
--MS_Mac_OE_3158689103_24075_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Say what? I honestly am not sure what "offer advice when asked for" means.
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:14:43 -0800 (PST)
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
i did not ask for your advice...but thanks.
offer advice when asked for.
Mark
"Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
Mark, I would advise you (and I mean this sincerely) not to make fun of
others spelling, etc. unless your own sentence structure, punctuation, etc.
are perfect.
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:52:58 -0800 (PST)
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
Jan...
can you elaborate on what are houseparents?
and sepcial ed kids?
and apricate?
What year of journalism school are you in?
Mark
Jan-Christoph Kolb (Jan-Christoph_Kolb web.de) wrote:
p {margin: 0px}
Dear Dan, dear Deborah,
I'm a former Waldorf student, now studying journalism and writing my masters
thesis on special ed in camphill communities. I would really like to get
some input from waldorf critics on the steiner-based special ed. I would
really apricate your comments and contacts. I'm specifically looking for
former parents of sepcial ed kids, former camphill co-workers and
houseparents.
best,
Jan-Christoph==^============================================================
====
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always
welcome.____________________________________________________________________
__________
Erdbeben im Iran: Zehntausende Kinder brauchen Hilfe. UNICEF hilft den
Kindern - helfen Sie mit! https://www.unicef.de/spe/spe_03.php
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 21:43:43 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
Thank you for making the post below, Agustina. I, for one, had NO idea what
was transpiring between Jan-Christoph and Mark, other than the fact that the
posters seemed to be showing off how many languages they could speak.
English is the language of this list. Let's all try to use it to communicate
here as clearly as we can. I think we all agree that NO ONE is immune from
spelling errors (sometimes, they are actually typographical errors!) or
other lapses of perfect grammar and syntax.
I strongly believe that even people who vociferously disagree with one
another can engage in reasoned and civilized debate.
Lisa
) From: antigonabaires hotmail.com
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:18:53 -0300
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
)
)
) Well, well, I think this has gone completely off topic.
) I must say it was you, Chris, who didn't understand my message. I meant to
) say that, in my humble opinion, Mark's questions regarding spelling and such
) were not kind to YOU.
) Besides, this is not a contest about who's been to more countries, who can
) speak more languages and who is the most sympathethic to foreigners and
) aliens. I don't think it is polite to post messages in languages other than
) English (unless, of course, it is a quote) since by joining this list we
) have tacitly agreed to use English, which we all understand. I am sure many
) of us here are fluent in more than one language but I don't recall anyone's
) boasting about such qualifications if that fact did not help to the
) understanding of Waldorf or anthroposophy. After all, that's what we are all
) here for, isn't it?
)
) And I suggest you moderate your tone about calling anyone "porteña" the way
) you are doing it here.
) Regards,
) Agustina
)
) ----- Original Message -----
) From: "Jan-Christoph Kolb" (jk2332 columbia.edu)
) To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
) Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 9:34 PM
) Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
)
)
)) Que te paso a ti?
)) Como podia saber que hablan aleman. No tengo ni idea de donde son.
)) Para saber, puedas escribirme en aleman, ingles y tambien en
)) espanol, portena. Vivia en Cordoba!!!!!
)) Tranquilizate, vos sos la que es orgullosa.
))
)) Chris
)) --
)) Graduate School of Journalism Columbia University
)) Jan-Christoph Kolb
)) 530 W 112th St.
)) New York, NY 10025
)) Tel: 1 646 234 0565
))
))
)) Quoting antigonabaires hotmail.com:
))
))) Re: camphill and special edLisa wrote:
)))
))) "Also, I believe this individual's first language is German. He
))) is writing to us in English. Have some decency and respect,
))) please."
)))
))) I agree with Lisa in every respect. I am a foreigner myself and I
))) hate that arrogant attitude. Even if his grammar and spelling
))) were perfect in every possible language.
))) Warm (literally!) regards from Buenos Aires
))) Agustina
)))
)))
)) ==^================================================================
))) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter
))) how basic. New threads are always welcome.
)) -
)))
))
)) ==^================================================================
)) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
) New threads are always welcome.
))
))
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 03:02:57 +0000
From: David Dodds (jaquesdm msn.com)
Subject: RE: camphill and special ed
Jan-Christoph Kolb wrote:
)
) Hi David,
) Finally some constructive response beyond the sad and childish
) antics of some replies.
Entirely happy to help Jan-Christoph.
) David, I was a co-worker, too and left with a deep feeling of
) appreciation but more so, a suitcase full of nagging questions.
The "deep feeling of appreciation" is quite common in one's early days
I think. For myself, I blundered into anthroposophy from the dole after
twenty-five years in aerospce-defence. During that twenty-five years, I
always felt that industry was my job, but my *work* was in
Scouting...you know, teamwork, helping my lads to be all they could,
leaving the land as we had found it, all that stuff. On first coming to
the "community" I was exquisitely happy: the nagging questions arose for
me after about nine months. Eventually, I sought professional help-
anxiety stemming from Cultural Alienation was the diagnosis. I had only
moved about 40 miles, believing what they had told me that my degree in
The Humanities, and my various bits of long-term voluntary work would
have some value.
It was as early as my second week there that I was informed "your *real*
education starts now". Of course I knew that anthroposophy was a bit
alternative, but I never expected to feel a stranger in my own land!
I recently read Geoffrey Ahern's Ph.D thesis (London School of
Economics, 1981). On descibing his impressions of a visit to The
Goetheanum, he spoke of "the plastic lampshades, not obviously
plastic"...and that, in a nutshell said it all for me.
) Recently, I have visisted a Camphill here in the U.S. and despite
) the apparent change in terms of decision-making and the take-over
) by a younger, less dogmatic generation of co-workers, the whole
) appraoch seems problematic.
Yep
1. Integration yes, but does it have to take place behind the
) closed doors of a rural community?
Not sure what you mean by "integration." With wider society? It rather
seems to me that the movement as a whole is becoming more adept at
securing public funding, but still wants to be a part (for the money)
apart from society. While the greater part of such centres remain in a
rural setting- presumably distanced from the Ahrimanic infuences of
cities, there are some inner city initiatives, often, but not always
carrying out commercial businesses.
) 2. Does the mental stress endured, inhibit the development of those
) with special needs?
Depends on the individual. Autistic folk tend to do well in the
*rhythmic* regime- the condition demands "straight lines". Others, well
it depends on their personality. One lad I worked with was given St.
John's Wort, and later Prozac to alleviate his depression. The lad had
no speech, could write and recognise twenty-seven words, but did have
some communicative skills using Sign Maketon. It always seemed to me
that the lad was *not* depressed, he was simply bored bored bored. Bored
out of his skull with the same thing every day- the key being that while
our man was disabled, he was by no means unintelligent. Eventually, he
was kicked out.
I think the short answer to your question is that any "successes" are
due to Steiner's Curative Course, and "failures" are down to the
individual.
) 3. Indeed, does the stress create resentments on behalf of the co-
) workers?
Do you doubt it??? The Great and the Good manage to protect themselves
a bit from the emotional demands of attending to the special folk by
attending those interminable meetings, or by securing "independent"
tasks- which means 9-5ish working day, with two hours for lunch and
"rest hour"
The brunt of emotional demands are borne by less experienced staff.
) 4. What about the therapies? Despite some positive effects I have
) seen, there seems to be a kind of laissez-faire approach.
I remain still a big fan of einreibung massage. Other therapies? I
don't know that much is unique to anthroposophy. They seem to do much
the same as others, sometimes just with a mystical articulation giving
it an occult bent. Take for example Colour Light Therapy. Other
non-anthro places use it too, but its just called relaxation. Thes other
places of course dont attach the same occult significance to particular
colours, its a more simple psychology.
) 5. Are Camphill kids or young adults really apt to survive outside
) the fairytale world of wood-carving and story-telling? Can they
) fill out a disbility claim?
Same as any other centre: some can, some can't. My own experience
indicates that the more able people do eventually move out to Sheltered
Housing and work.
)
) I would like to interview you over the phone, you can call me under
) 646 234 0565 or send me your number.
I don't mind, but I'm in Scotland..+5 hrs on E.S.T. I work nights, and
even when I'm off I find it difficult to adjust to anything like regular
hours. (It's almost 3:00 am now: still wide awake, but it isnt always
so.) I also spend a few days a week with my old dad, so while I am in no
way trying to avoid you, a mutually convenient time is a bit tricky.
Feel free to email me offlist if you want to arrange a telecon. For all
the list is called Waldorf Critics, I'm pretty sure the owners would
have no objection to further Camphill discussions here.
Davy
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:29:10 -0500
From: Jan-Christoph Kolb (jk2332 columbia.edu)
Subject: RE: camphill and special ed
David,
thank you so much indeed. let me digest that information after
completing a hectic day in our news room here. I will get back to
you tomorrow though, and we'll see if I can give you a call. Thank
you very much indeed.
Of course some of my questions seem obvious, but I have to leave my
own opinion as much in the background as possible to produce a
credible piece of journalism.
good night, Jan-Christoph
--
Graduate School of Journalism Columbia University
Jan-Christoph Kolb
530 W 112th St.
New York, NY 10025
Tel: 1 646 234 0565
Quoting David Dodds (jaquesdm msn.com):
)
) Jan-Christoph Kolb wrote:
) )
) ) Hi David,
) ) Finally some constructive response beyond the sad and childish
)
) ) antics of some replies.
)
) Entirely happy to help Jan-Christoph.
)
) ) David, I was a co-worker, too and left with a deep feeling of
) ) appreciation but more so, a suitcase full of nagging
) questions.
)
) The "deep feeling of appreciation" is quite common in one's
) early days
) I think. For myself, I blundered into anthroposophy from the dole
) after
) twenty-five years in aerospce-defence. During that twenty-five
) years, I
) always felt that industry was my job, but my *work* was in
) Scouting...you know, teamwork, helping my lads to be all they
) could,
) leaving the land as we had found it, all that stuff. On first
) coming to
) the "community" I was exquisitely happy: the nagging questions
) arose for
) me after about nine months. Eventually, I sought professional
) help-
) anxiety stemming from Cultural Alienation was the diagnosis. I
) had only
) moved about 40 miles, believing what they had told me that my
) degree in
) The Humanities, and my various bits of long-term voluntary work
) would
) have some value.
) It was as early as my second week there that I was informed "your
) *real*
) education starts now". Of course I knew that anthroposophy was a
) bit
) alternative, but I never expected to feel a stranger in my own
) land!
) I recently read Geoffrey Ahern's Ph.D thesis (London School of
) Economics, 1981). On descibing his impressions of a visit to The
)
) Goetheanum, he spoke of "the plastic lampshades, not obviously
) plastic"...and that, in a nutshell said it all for me.
)
) ) Recently, I have visisted a Camphill here in the U.S. and
) despite
) ) the apparent change in terms of decision-making and the
) take-over
) ) by a younger, less dogmatic generation of co-workers, the whole
)
) ) appraoch seems problematic.
)
) Yep
)
) 1. Integration yes, but does it have to take place behind the
) ) closed doors of a rural community?
)
) Not sure what you mean by "integration." With wider society? It
) rather
) seems to me that the movement as a whole is becoming more adept
) at
) securing public funding, but still wants to be a part (for the
) money)
) apart from society. While the greater part of such centres remain
) in a
) rural setting- presumably distanced from the Ahrimanic infuences
) of
) cities, there are some inner city initiatives, often, but not
) always
) carrying out commercial businesses.
)
) ) 2. Does the mental stress endured, inhibit the development of
) those
) ) with special needs?
)
) Depends on the individual. Autistic folk tend to do well in the
)
) *rhythmic* regime- the condition demands "straight lines".
) Others, well
) it depends on their personality. One lad I worked with was given
) St.
) John's Wort, and later Prozac to alleviate his depression. The
) lad had
) no speech, could write and recognise twenty-seven words, but did
) have
) some communicative skills using Sign Maketon. It always seemed
) to me
) that the lad was *not* depressed, he was simply bored bored
) bored. Bored
) out of his skull with the same thing every day- the key being
) that while
) our man was disabled, he was by no means unintelligent.
) Eventually, he
) was kicked out.
) I think the short answer to your question is that any
) "successes" are
) due to Steiner's Curative Course, and "failures" are down to the
)
) individual.
)
) ) 3. Indeed, does the stress create resentments on behalf of the
) co-
) ) workers?
)
) Do you doubt it??? The Great and the Good manage to protect
) themselves
) a bit from the emotional demands of attending to the special folk
) by
) attending those interminable meetings, or by securing
) "independent"
) tasks- which means 9-5ish working day, with two hours for lunch
) and
) "rest hour"
) The brunt of emotional demands are borne by less experienced
) staff.
)
) ) 4. What about the therapies? Despite some positive effects I
) have
) ) seen, there seems to be a kind of laissez-faire approach.
)
) I remain still a big fan of einreibung massage. Other therapies?
) I
) don't know that much is unique to anthroposophy. They seem to do
) much
) the same as others, sometimes just with a mystical articulation
) giving
) it an occult bent. Take for example Colour Light Therapy. Other
) non-anthro places use it too, but its just called relaxation.
) Thes other
) places of course dont attach the same occult significance to
) particular
) colours, its a more simple psychology.
)
) ) 5. Are Camphill kids or young adults really apt to survive
) outside
) ) the fairytale world of wood-carving and story-telling? Can they
)
) ) fill out a disbility claim?
)
) Same as any other centre: some can, some can't. My own experience
)
) indicates that the more able people do eventually move out to
) Sheltered
) Housing and work.
) )
) ) I would like to interview you over the phone, you can call me
) under
) ) 646 234 0565 or send me your number.
)
) I don't mind, but I'm in Scotland..+5 hrs on E.S.T. I work
) nights, and
) even when I'm off I find it difficult to adjust to anything like
) regular
) hours. (It's almost 3:00 am now: still wide awake, but it isnt
) always
) so.) I also spend a few days a week with my old dad, so while I
) am in no
) way trying to avoid you, a mutually convenient time is a bit
) tricky.
) Feel free to email me offlist if you want to arrange a telecon.
) For all
) the list is called Waldorf Critics, I'm pretty sure the owners
) would
) have no objection to further Camphill discussions here.
)
) Davy
) )
) )
)
)
==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter
) how basic. New threads are always welcome.
-
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 23:46:28 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: reporting on Camphill/was Camphill and special ed
Jan-Christoph,
I am wondering: do you think you *can* produce an unbiased piece of
reporting on Camphill, if you were (as you seem to have been) involved in it
in some way in the past?
Perhaps the better question is: SHOULD you chose as your topic something
with which you have had personal involvement?
I have been a newspaper reporter for more than 20 years and in the ethical
canon wherever I have worked (from a large metropolitan daily paper to a
national magazine to a chain of weekly newspapers) was an unwritten rule
that said a reporter should recuse himself or herself from covering a topic
with which he or she has had personal involvement. (This rule does not apply
to the writing of editorials or opinion pieces, obviously.)
As I am sure you know, the *appearance* of bias is just as damaging to a
reporter's credibility (and to the credibility of his or her news
organization) as actual bias would be.
But perhaps I am misunderstanding the purpose of your piece. Is it an actual
feature story or news article, or is it a paper for a class?
Respectfully,
Lisa
) From: Jan-Christoph Kolb (jk2332 columbia.edu)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:29:10 -0500
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: RE: camphill and special ed
)
) David,
)
) thank you so much indeed. let me digest that information after
) completing a hectic day in our news room here. I will get back to
) you tomorrow though, and we'll see if I can give you a call. Thank
) you very much indeed.
) Of course some of my questions seem obvious, but I have to leave my
) own opinion as much in the background as possible to produce a
) credible piece of journalism.
)
) good night, Jan-Christoph
) --
) Graduate School of Journalism Columbia University
) Jan-Christoph Kolb
) 530 W 112th St.
) New York, NY 10025
) Tel: 1 646 234 0565
)
)
) Quoting David Dodds (jaquesdm msn.com):
)
))
)) Jan-Christoph Kolb wrote:
)))
))) Hi David,
))) Finally some constructive response beyond the sad and childish
))
))) antics of some replies.
))
)) Entirely happy to help Jan-Christoph.
))
))) David, I was a co-worker, too and left with a deep feeling of
))) appreciation but more so, a suitcase full of nagging
)) questions.
))
)) The "deep feeling of appreciation" is quite common in one's
)) early days
)) I think. For myself, I blundered into anthroposophy from the dole
)) after
)) twenty-five years in aerospce-defence. During that twenty-five
)) years, I
)) always felt that industry was my job, but my *work* was in
)) Scouting...you know, teamwork, helping my lads to be all they
)) could,
)) leaving the land as we had found it, all that stuff. On first
)) coming to
)) the "community" I was exquisitely happy: the nagging questions
)) arose for
)) me after about nine months. Eventually, I sought professional
)) help-
)) anxiety stemming from Cultural Alienation was the diagnosis. I
)) had only
)) moved about 40 miles, believing what they had told me that my
)) degree in
)) The Humanities, and my various bits of long-term voluntary work
)) would
)) have some value.
)) It was as early as my second week there that I was informed "your
)) *real*
)) education starts now". Of course I knew that anthroposophy was a
)) bit
)) alternative, but I never expected to feel a stranger in my own
)) land!
)) I recently read Geoffrey Ahern's Ph.D thesis (London School of
)) Economics, 1981). On descibing his impressions of a visit to The
))
)) Goetheanum, he spoke of "the plastic lampshades, not obviously
)) plastic"...and that, in a nutshell said it all for me.
))
))) Recently, I have visisted a Camphill here in the U.S. and
)) despite
))) the apparent change in terms of decision-making and the
)) take-over
))) by a younger, less dogmatic generation of co-workers, the whole
))
))) appraoch seems problematic.
))
)) Yep
))
)) 1. Integration yes, but does it have to take place behind the
))) closed doors of a rural community?
))
)) Not sure what you mean by "integration." With wider society? It
)) rather
)) seems to me that the movement as a whole is becoming more adept
)) at
)) securing public funding, but still wants to be a part (for the
)) money)
)) apart from society. While the greater part of such centres remain
)) in a
)) rural setting- presumably distanced from the Ahrimanic infuences
)) of
)) cities, there are some inner city initiatives, often, but not
)) always
)) carrying out commercial businesses.
))
))) 2. Does the mental stress endured, inhibit the development of
)) those
))) with special needs?
))
)) Depends on the individual. Autistic folk tend to do well in the
))
)) *rhythmic* regime- the condition demands "straight lines".
)) Others, well
)) it depends on their personality. One lad I worked with was given
)) St.
)) John's Wort, and later Prozac to alleviate his depression. The
)) lad had
)) no speech, could write and recognise twenty-seven words, but did
)) have
)) some communicative skills using Sign Maketon. It always seemed
)) to me
)) that the lad was *not* depressed, he was simply bored bored
)) bored. Bored
)) out of his skull with the same thing every day- the key being
)) that while
)) our man was disabled, he was by no means unintelligent.
)) Eventually, he
)) was kicked out.
)) I think the short answer to your question is that any
)) "successes" are
)) due to Steiner's Curative Course, and "failures" are down to the
))
)) individual.
))
))) 3. Indeed, does the stress create resentments on behalf of the
)) co-
))) workers?
))
)) Do you doubt it??? The Great and the Good manage to protect
)) themselves
)) a bit from the emotional demands of attending to the special folk
)) by
)) attending those interminable meetings, or by securing
)) "independent"
)) tasks- which means 9-5ish working day, with two hours for lunch
)) and
)) "rest hour"
)) The brunt of emotional demands are borne by less experienced
)) staff.
))
))) 4. What about the therapies? Despite some positive effects I
)) have
))) seen, there seems to be a kind of laissez-faire approach.
))
)) I remain still a big fan of einreibung massage. Other therapies?
)) I
)) don't know that much is unique to anthroposophy. They seem to do
)) much
)) the same as others, sometimes just with a mystical articulation
)) giving
)) it an occult bent. Take for example Colour Light Therapy. Other
)) non-anthro places use it too, but its just called relaxation.
)) Thes other
)) places of course dont attach the same occult significance to
)) particular
)) colours, its a more simple psychology.
))
))) 5. Are Camphill kids or young adults really apt to survive
)) outside
))) the fairytale world of wood-carving and story-telling? Can they
))
))) fill out a disbility claim?
))
)) Same as any other centre: some can, some can't. My own experience
))
)) indicates that the more able people do eventually move out to
)) Sheltered
)) Housing and work.
)))
))) I would like to interview you over the phone, you can call me
)) under
))) 646 234 0565 or send me your number.
))
)) I don't mind, but I'm in Scotland..+5 hrs on E.S.T. I work
)) nights, and
)) even when I'm off I find it difficult to adjust to anything like
)) regular
)) hours. (It's almost 3:00 am now: still wide awake, but it isnt
)) always
)) so.) I also spend a few days a week with my old dad, so while I
)) am in no
)) way trying to avoid you, a mutually convenient time is a bit
)) tricky.
)) Feel free to email me offlist if you want to arrange a telecon.
)) For all
)) the list is called Waldorf Critics, I'm pretty sure the owners
)) would
)) have no objection to further Camphill discussions here.
))
)) Davy
)))
)))
))
))
) ==^================================================================
)) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter
)) how basic. New threads are always welcome.
) -
))
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 21:01:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
--0-932414146-1075870867=:90744
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Say what Girlfriend???
This your comment to me and I quote -
"Mark, I would advise you (and I mean this sincerely) not to make fun of others..."
read the words "I would advise you" very carefully and see if you can figure it out.
People do not appreciate unsolicited advise. If I ask for advise then you can politely and tactfully deliver it. All else makes others defensive.
Cheers
Mark
"Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
Say what? I honestly am not sure what "offer advice when asked for" means.
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:14:43 -0800 (PST)
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
i did not ask for your advice...but thanks.
offer advice when asked for.
Mark
"Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
Mark, I would advise you (and I mean this sincerely) not to make fun of others spelling, etc. unless your own sentence structure, punctuation, etc. are perfect.
From: Mark Fitzpatrick (fitzcandoservices yahoo.com)
Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:52:58 -0800 (PST)
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: camphill and special ed
Jan...
can you elaborate on what are houseparents?
and sepcial ed kids?
and apricate?
What year of journalism school are you in?
Mark
Jan-Christoph Kolb (Jan-Christoph_Kolb web.de) wrote:
p {margin: 0px}
Dear Dan, dear Deborah,
I'm a former Waldorf student, now studying journalism and writing my masters thesis on special ed in camphill communities. I would really like to get some input from waldorf critics on the steiner-based special ed. I would really apricate your comments and contacts. I'm specifically looking for former parents of sepcial ed kids, former camphill co-workers and houseparents.
best, Jan-Christoph==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.______________________________________________________________________________
Erdbeben im Iran: Zehntausende Kinder brauchen Hilfe. UNICEF hilft den
Kindern - helfen Sie mit! https://www.unicef.de/spe/spe_03.php
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
==^================================================================
You can ask an