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-- Topica Digest --
Waldorf Art
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: Waldorf Art
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Article in the Sunday Telegraph (uk)
By madpark nildram.co.uk
RE: Article in the Sunday Telegraph (uk)
By simonetchell f2s.com
teacher training
By simonetchell f2s.com
Re: Article in the Sunday Telegraph (uk)
By madpark nildram.co.uk
vaccination article
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: Charter school approval before school board Thursday
By gideonmills yahoo.com
Re: Charter school approval before school board Thursday
By gideonmills yahoo.com
Re: teacher training
By Gary goodwinter.com
Re: Morality and Racism
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: Article in the Sunday Telegraph (uk)
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:56:43 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Waldorf Art
Forwarded by Christine - no editorializing
*************************8
AN EXHIBIT OF SCHOOLCHILDREN'S ARTWORK ATTRACTS NOTICE AT YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY
BECAUSE OF ITS ... ARTFUL ALLURE
Portland Press Herald (Maine); 1/16/2003; TED COHEN
Portland Press Herald (Maine)
01-16-2003
Portland Press Herald (Maine)
Thursday, January 16, 2003
Edition: York
Section: Your Neighbors
Page: 1E
By TED COHEN Staff Writer
YORK-- As it marks its first year in operation, the York Public Library is
displaying a traveling exhibit of expressive - and impressive - artwork by
children. Robert Waldman, head librarian, said the exhibit, featuring works of art
by students from Waldorf schools nationwide, has brought telephone inquiries
from art lovers living outside of York who have heard that it is here on
display.
"To receive calls on something like this from outside our community is
unusual," Waldman said.
The exhibit features works by students from across the country who are in
Waldorf-sponsored schools. Waldorf schools are private schools that follow a
teaching philosophy that says learning should be appropriate to a child's
emotional and developmental needs at specific ages.
First established in 1919 by Austrian scientist and thinker Rudolf Steiner,
Waldorf schools allow children to learn at a natural pace. There are more than
750 Waldorf schools in 44 countries.
The traveling art exhibit that opened here Jan. 6 marks the 85th anniversary
of Waldorf education. In this area, the Waldorf school in Eliot is called
Tidewater School, which opened in 1999.
Waldorf philosophy is based on the belief that every child can draw, paint,
sculpt, knit, sing and dance. So the teachers integrate the arts in every
subject.
The new $4.75 million library, opened Dec. 1, 2001, replacing the
3,700-square-foot library that had served the town since 1928. Library officials said it
had become too small for York, one of the fastest growing towns in the state.
The new exhibit, which runs until Jan. 30, is in the children's section of
the 24,000-square-foot library. The paintings encircle the sunlight-filled
basement of the library, a visual allure for visitors wanting a new cultural
experience.
"People are really amazed with the quality of the artwork," said Kathleen
Whalin, the children's librarian.
In Waldorf schools, "the ability to create something artistic is regarded as
a natural skill, not something only a handful of children can accomplish,"
said Charlene Ohlen, a member of the Tidewater Development Committee.
In the Waldorf approach to education, an equal emphasis is placed on
academics, artistic expression, social development and attention to what school
officials call "the inner life and natural rhythms of children."
The exhibit, titled "Truth & Beauty" and organized by The Phoenix Arts Group,
features more than 100 pieces of two- and three-dimensional work by Waldorf
children ages 5 to 17.
The artwork display is designed to show how the arts are central to learning,
said Karen Traversy, Tidewater kindergarten teacher and school administrator.
"It's not all at the intellectual level, but at the thinking, feeling and
willing levels - willing being equal to doing," Traversy said.
One student's painted rendering of the human heart, exacting in its accuracy,
has an explanatory card beneath it that tells the viewer: "The Renaissance is
the theme in the visual arts. Students discover the outer laws of
perspective, and draw the human being inside and out, like daVinci, for physiology class."
From York, the exhibit travels to the Portsmouth, N.H., Music Hall, where it
will run from Feb. 1 to Feb. 28.
Staff Writer Ted Cohen can be contacted at 282-8225 or at:
tcohen pressherald.com
Illustrations/Photos:
Staff photo by Gregory RecStudents from Waldorf schools around the country
contributed works to the exhibit currently on display at York Public Library.
This piece was created by a first-grader.Beneath a sketch made by a Waldorf
school fifth-grade student, Robyn Jutras, 3, looks over a book at York Public
Library. The exhibit, titled "Truth & Beauty - The role of the arts in Waldorf
education" is at the library through Jan. 30.Staff photos by Gregory RecA
painting by a third-grader is part of a display of artwork by Waldorf school students
that's at York Public Library.
Copyright 2002 Blethen Maine Newspapers Inc.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:56:46 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Art
Hi Christine,
I take it you forwarded this "information" as an example of the Waldorf PR
problem? While I agree that children should be encouraged to explore the
arts *and* that many Waldorf students (as well as non-Waldorf students) can
create wonderful paintings, this PR blurb (below) does not speak to the
issue of children and art. Here's my take based on a single reading of the
article:
- Steiner the "scientist, thinker" - again. Misleading, at best.
- Phone calls from "art lovers" outside the area who have heard of the
exhibit - what does this mean???
- "The paintings encircle the sunlight-filled basement of the library, a
visual allure for visitors wanting a new cultural experience." As if
written by Waldorf PR people - Waldorf is certainly a new cultural
experience. Nuff said.
- "In the Waldorf approach to education, an equal emphasis is placed on
academics, artistic expression, social development and attention to what
school officials call 'the inner life and natural rhythms of children.' "
If I were a reporter and was told about the "inner life, etc." of children,
I would ask what that meant. As far as "natural rhythms of children" is
concerned, we all know this is "natural rhythm" according Steiner's model.
The "natural rhythm" of the individual child is *not* respected nor is it
even recognized. The child's teeth and temperament are "natural rhythms"
and telling signs of development in anthro circles - not for me.
-The exhibit is titled "Truth and Beauty." While I have no doubt there is
plenty of "beauty" in the exhibit, I question the part about..."Truth." the
writer of this piece must have take an full 5 minutes to complete the task.
Too cynical? You might think so, Christine, but here again we see an
example of how the Waldorf promoters could have offered the briefest
explanation of what this "art" is a all about - as well as taken the
opportunity to share what they mean by "thinking, feeling and willing" with
curious non-Waldorf/Anthros. But no, they simply call Steiner a scientist
and thinker and share the beauty. And "truth" has yet to be fully
incarnated. What a shame.
-Walden
) Forwarded by Christine - no editorializing
) *************************8
)
) AN EXHIBIT OF SCHOOLCHILDREN'S ARTWORK ATTRACTS NOTICE AT YORK PUBLIC
LIBRARY
) BECAUSE OF ITS ... ARTFUL ALLURE
)
) Portland Press Herald (Maine); 1/16/2003; TED COHEN
)
) Portland Press Herald (Maine)
)
) 01-16-2003
)
) Portland Press Herald (Maine)
) Thursday, January 16, 2003
) Edition: York
) Section: Your Neighbors
) Page: 1E
) By TED COHEN Staff Writer
)
) YORK-- As it marks its first year in operation, the York Public Library is
) displaying a traveling exhibit of expressive - and impressive - artwork by
) children. Robert Waldman, head librarian, said the exhibit, featuring
works of art
) by students from Waldorf schools nationwide, has brought telephone
inquiries
) from art lovers living outside of York who have heard that it is here on
) display.
)
) "To receive calls on something like this from outside our community is
) unusual," Waldman said.
)
) The exhibit features works by students from across the country who are in
) Waldorf-sponsored schools. Waldorf schools are private schools that follow
a
) teaching philosophy that says learning should be appropriate to a child's
) emotional and developmental needs at specific ages.
)
) First established in 1919 by Austrian scientist and thinker Rudolf
Steiner,
) Waldorf schools allow children to learn at a natural pace. There are more
than
) 750 Waldorf schools in 44 countries.
)
) The traveling art exhibit that opened here Jan. 6 marks the 85th
anniversary
) of Waldorf education. In this area, the Waldorf school in Eliot is called
) Tidewater School, which opened in 1999.
)
) Waldorf philosophy is based on the belief that every child can draw,
paint,
) sculpt, knit, sing and dance. So the teachers integrate the arts in every
) subject.
)
) The new $4.75 million library, opened Dec. 1, 2001, replacing the
) 3,700-square-foot library that had served the town since 1928. Library
officials said it
) had become too small for York, one of the fastest growing towns in the
state.
)
) The new exhibit, which runs until Jan. 30, is in the children's section of
) the 24,000-square-foot library. The paintings encircle the sunlight-filled
) basement of the library, a visual allure for visitors wanting a new
cultural
) experience.
)
) "People are really amazed with the quality of the artwork," said Kathleen
) Whalin, the children's librarian.
)
) In Waldorf schools, "the ability to create something artistic is regarded
as
) a natural skill, not something only a handful of children can accomplish,"
) said Charlene Ohlen, a member of the Tidewater Development Committee.
)
) In the Waldorf approach to education, an equal emphasis is placed on
) academics, artistic expression, social development and attention to what
school
) officials call "the inner life and natural rhythms of children."
)
) The exhibit, titled "Truth & Beauty" and organized by The Phoenix Arts
Group,
) features more than 100 pieces of two- and three-dimensional work by
Waldorf
) children ages 5 to 17.
)
) The artwork display is designed to show how the arts are central to
learning,
) said Karen Traversy, Tidewater kindergarten teacher and school
administrator.
)
) "It's not all at the intellectual level, but at the thinking, feeling and
) willing levels - willing being equal to doing," Traversy said.
)
) One student's painted rendering of the human heart, exacting in its
accuracy,
) has an explanatory card beneath it that tells the viewer: "The Renaissance
is
) the theme in the visual arts. Students discover the outer laws of
) perspective, and draw the human being inside and out, like daVinci, for
physiology class."
)
) From York, the exhibit travels to the Portsmouth, N.H., Music Hall, where
it
) will run from Feb. 1 to Feb. 28.
)
) Staff Writer Ted Cohen can be contacted at 282-8225 or at:
)
) tcohen pressherald.com
)
) Illustrations/Photos:
) Staff photo by Gregory RecStudents from Waldorf schools around the country
) contributed works to the exhibit currently on display at York Public
Library.
) This piece was created by a first-grader.Beneath a sketch made by a
Waldorf
) school fifth-grade student, Robyn Jutras, 3, looks over a book at York
Public
) Library. The exhibit, titled "Truth & Beauty - The role of the arts in
Waldorf
) education" is at the library through Jan. 30.Staff photos by Gregory RecA
) painting by a third-grader is part of a display of artwork by Waldorf
school students
) that's at York Public Library.
)
) Copyright 2002 Blethen Maine Newspapers Inc.
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
) --^----------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:58:32 +0000
From: madpark (madpark nildram.co.uk)
Subject: Article in the Sunday Telegraph (uk)
Someone mentioned there was an article on PLANS or that mentioned PLANS and
Michael Kop in last Sundays
Sunday Telegraph (uk) did anyone see it? I have done a search on the Sunday
Telegraph website but couldn't find it
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:28:41 +0000
From: simon etchell (simonetchell f2s.com)
Subject: RE: Article in the Sunday Telegraph (uk)
Yes it was in the Telegraph magazine, last sunday 22nd Feb, I've filed
it away but will dig it out and share if you can't access it - it was
specifically about a 'community' in the US. It does iclude some
'critisms' and does indeed mention PLANS and an impending lawsuit
Very bizarre for me having only encountered this site and just going
down the 'oh my God, what were we getting ourselves into....'route !!
Simon
madpark wrote:
)
) Someone mentioned there was an article on PLANS or that mentioned PLANS
) and
) Michael Kop in last Sundays
) Sunday Telegraph (uk) did anyone see it? I have done a search on the
) Sunday
) Telegraph website but couldn't find it
)
hoping for truth
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:38:40 +0000
From: simon etchell (simonetchell f2s.com)
Subject: teacher training
On the 'concerns' bit of the site it suggests the training to be a
steiner teacher is 'woefully inadequate' and mentions 2 years. I
assumed that meant full tine but last week met a woman whose child goes
to my son's steiner kindergarten (yep hes still there ATM!!.
She has been a 'stay at home mum' for several years with no teaching
experience. She is currently doing her teacher training at Rudolph
Steiner House in London. The course is - wait for it - every saturday
!! thats it !! Surely shes mistaken ? I quizzed her but she seemed
certain, that after 2 years of saturdays (in term time only I guess)
she'll be a teacher. (not kibdergarten - main school )
Surely not ?
Simon
hoping for truth
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:37:29 +0000
From: madpark (madpark nildram.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Article in the Sunday Telegraph (uk)
Maybe if you could give me the author I could search on that
)
) Yes it was in the Telegraph magazine, last sunday 22nd Feb, I've filed
) it away but will dig it out and share if you can't access it - it was
) specifically about a 'community' in the US. It does iclude some
) 'critisms' and does indeed mention PLANS and an impending lawsuit
)
) Very bizarre for me having only encountered this site and just going
) down the 'oh my God, what were we getting ourselves into....'route !!
)
) Simon
) madpark wrote:
)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:17:50 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: vaccination article
Intersting article here
http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CA40D.htm on vaccination. For
newbies, this has been a topic of conversation from time to time.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
Hot chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to
http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilemania/default.asp
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:05:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Gideon Mills (gideonmills yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Charter school approval before school board Thursday
Gideon Mills (gideonmills yahoo.com) wrote:
This past Monday evening at the Viroqua school board meeting a proposal was presented to turn a school slated for closing (because of budget cuts primarily) to turn the school into a charter school.
The school board voted overwhelmingly to close the Liberty Pole school, which at least put an obstacle in the path of the local anthrop community to use public money to fund another Waldorf school. However, I know this is not the end of this attempt considering the steady influx of anthrops into this area.
Deborah
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:05:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Gideon Mills (gideonmills yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Charter school approval before school board Thursday
Gideon Mills (gideonmills yahoo.com) wrote:
This past Monday evening at the Viroqua school board meeting a proposal was presented to turn a school slated for closing (because of budget cuts primarily) to turn the school into a charter school.
The school board voted overwhelmingly to close the Liberty Pole school, which at least put an obstacle in the path of the local anthrop community to use public money to fund another Waldorf school. However, I know this is not the end of this attempt considering the steady influx of anthrops into this area.
Deborah
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:02:15 -0500
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Re: teacher training
Welcome, Simon!
As you dig deeper into our site, you'll find samples of Waldorf teacher
reading list and requirements for years one and two. Can't wait for your
response!
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles.html#WalTeach
...Gary
on 2/29/04 2:38 PM, simon etchell at simonetchell f2s.com wrote:
) On the 'concerns' bit of the site it suggests the training to be a
) steiner teacher is 'woefully inadequate' and mentions 2 years. I
) assumed that meant full tine but last week met a woman whose child goes
) to my son's steiner kindergarten (yep hes still there ATM!!.
)
) She has been a 'stay at home mum' for several years with no teaching
) experience. She is currently doing her teacher training at Rudolph
) Steiner House in London. The course is - wait for it - every saturday
) !! thats it !! Surely shes mistaken ? I quizzed her but she seemed
) certain, that after 2 years of saturdays (in term time only I guess)
) she'll be a teacher. (not kibdergarten - main school )
)
) Surely not ?
) Simon
)
) hoping for truth
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:07:56 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Morality and Racism
Hi Christine,
You wrote:
) Hi guys!
)
) Why don't y'all come on over to our yard for a while?
I believe you are referring to the discussion at the anthroposophy tomorrow
list. No thanks. Interesting to peruse but just a little weird for me.
Agreed, there is something to learn from *some* members there, but.... What
a wonderful chance for discussion of Steiner's ideas (racism,
anti-Semitism - or not) and what do we see? The Staudenmaier Inquisition
complete with character attacks and paranoia. So much room for meaningful
dialogue and a large chunk of bandwidth is filled with questions about a
translation of one part of one sentence uttered by Steiner many years ago.
People grasp at anything to *catch* Peter instead of dealing with the
essence of the subject. Weird.
And besides, Christine, we have a very good conversation happening right
here, don't we? Really, I am pleased to work *with you* on this Waldorf PR
project as opposed to taking sides. I believe we found some common ground.
I would appreciate seeing this through - would you be willing to speak to a
couple of my previous posts? I sincerely hope so.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:43:31 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Article in the Sunday Telegraph (uk)
simon etchell wrote:
)Yes it was in the Telegraph magazine, last sunday 22nd Feb, I've filed
)it away but will dig it out and share if you can't access it - it was
)specifically about a 'community' in the US. It does iclude some
)'critisms' and does indeed mention PLANS and an impending lawsuit
I can't find it on line. Could you mail me a copy for PLANS' library?
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1279
-- Topica Digest --
Just testing since Topica downtime
By gary goodwinter.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 06:46:40 -0500
From: Gary Bonhiver (gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Just testing since Topica downtime
Haven't seen any messages since Topica was down Saturday for
maintenance...just testing
...Gary
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1280
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Morality and Racism
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: Morality and Racism
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
By feetapparel hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 09:47:26 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Morality and Racism
Hi Walden, thanks for your contributions on the morality and racism thread.
You wrote:
)What
)a wonderful chance for discussion of Steiner's ideas (racism,
)anti-Semitism - or not) and what do we see? The Staudenmaier Inquisition
)complete with character attacks and paranoia.
I think there is a logic to this approach, one that lines up well with the
premise that people cannot discuss topics like racism without impugning one
another's moral status. Some anthroposophists genuinely believe that for
purposes of public discussion, who you are is more important than what you
say, and are quite baffled when others decline to endorse this basic error.
The recent discussion of my politics is a perfect example of this view of
'morality'; it fits right in with the notion that critically describing and
discussing Steiner's racial doctrines is in and of itself insulting to his
moral character. It may take some time, but eventually anthroposophists will
need to come to terms with racism and antisemitism as belief systems, as
worldviews, that can be examined within their historical contexts and
assessed on that basis. Once that recognition is in place, I think it will
become much easier to talk about what Steiner said, and assess these
doctrines within their historical context, without thereby creating an
unbridgeable gulf between anthroposophist and non-anthroposophist
conceptions of who Steiner was as a person.
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar – includes FREE pop-up blocking!
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 21:56:32 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
In a message dated 3/2/2004 8:58:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
golden3000997 cs.com writes:
) It may take some time, but eventually anthroposophists will
) need to come to terms with racism and antisemitism as belief systems, as
) worldviews, that can be examined within their historical contexts and
) assessed on that basis. Once that recognition is in place, I think it will
) become much easier to talk about what Steiner said, and assess these
) doctrines within their historical context,
Are you saying, Peter that none of the people on this list have "come to
terms with racism and antisemitism as belief sytems?" Are you saying that none of
the people on this list, and by extension "all" Anthroposophists have any
knowledge or experience by which to examine racism and/ or antisemitism as "belief
systems, as world views"? Are you saying that there is something that "we"
don't recognize about these "belief systems [these] world views" in regard to
their historical contexts? Mind you - you said "historical contexts" NOT
"Anthropsophical contexts". Are you saying that we are all too stupid and/ or
uneducated to be able to understand racism and antisemitism as "belief systems [and]
world views" within their "historical contexts" and therefore are unable to
"assess [them] on that basis."?
Because that is exactly what you are saying AND what would make it "much
easier to talk about what Steiner said, and assess these doctrines within their
historical context," would be if we all were actually too stupid and uneducated
to assess racism and antisemitism within their historical contexts. That way,
we would all just accept what you say about the issue as truth and say "Amen,
brother" and oh, boy, it would certainly be easier for you to talk with all of
us, now wouldn't it?
Christine
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 22:31:30 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Morality and Racism
Hello critics, here is the response I sent to Christine on the anthroposophy
tomorrow list:
Hi Christine, thanks for your post. You wrote:
"Are you saying, Peter that none of the people on this list have "come to
terms with racism and antisemitism as belief sytems?" "
No, I'm saying that some of you have not done so, as far as I can tell.
"Are you saying that none of the people on this list, and by extension "all"
Anthroposophists have any knowledge or experience by which to examine racism
and/ or antisemitism as "belief systems, as world views"?"
No, but I do think this is true of many of the anthroposophists I have
encountered.
"Are you saying that there is something that "we"
don't recognize about these "belief systems [these] world views" in regard
to their historical contexts?"
Yes, several of you are apparently unfamiliar with some of the basic
historical context of antisemitic thinking, for example. I think that is
getting in the way of an informed discussion of the matter.
"Are you saying that we are all too stupid and/ or uneducated to be able to
understand racism and antisemitism as "belief systems [and] world views"
within their "historical contexts" and therefore are unable to
"assess [them] on that basis."?"
No, I don't think that stupidity or education level have anything to do with
it.
"That way, we would all just accept what you say about the issue as truth
and say "Amen, brother" and oh, boy, it would certainly be easier for you to
talk with all of us, now wouldn't it?"
No, that would obviously make it much harder to talk meaningfully about the
topic. You shouldn't believe anything anybody says just because they say it.
In this case, I have not offered my own private views on the general
historical context, I have provided very well established background
information in order to frame our more specific discussion of Steiner's
doctrines. I've offered you all sorts of book recommendations and article
recommendations about the history of antisemitism and the history of racist
thought. I think we could have a more fruitful discussion if you would take
a moment to look into some of them. What do you say?
Peter
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 00:15:23 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
In a message dated 3/2/2004 11:20:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pstauden yahoo.de writes:
) Subj: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
) Date: 3/2/2004 11:20:25 PM Eastern Standard Time
) From: pstauden yahoo.de (Peter Staudenmaier)
) Reply-to: (A HREF="mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com")
anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com(/A)
) To: anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com
)
) Hi Christine, thanks for your post. You wrote:
)
)
) "Are you saying, Peter that none of the people on this list have "come to
) terms with racism and antisemitism as belief sytems?" "
)
) No, I'm saying that some of you have not done so, as far as I can tell.
NO Peter - you are bold-faced Lying!! You DID NOT say "some of you"
You said:
"Some anthroposophists genuinely believe that for
purposes of public discussion, who you are is more important than what you
say, and are quite baffled when others decline to endorse this basic error."
But you went on to say:
"It may take some time, but eventually anthroposophists will
need to come to terms with racism and antisemitism as belief systems, as
worldviews, that can be examined within their historical contexts and
assessed on that basis."
"EVENTUALLY ANTHROPOSOPHISTS" not "some anthroposophists" "anthroposophists
like...(certain people you may be directly speaking with on the subject)" not
"a few anthroposophists" or even "a few misguided anthroposophists."
Which is a blanket statement and covers ALL Anthroposophists, not the "some"
who "believe...who you are is more important than what you say." Even though
this is NOT a basic error!! Politicians and leaders of all kinds say many, many
things expressly to mislead and who they are in reality is a very important
thing to understand when trying to decipher truth from falsehood in their words.
Your statement above is indubitably arrogant and presumptious and false in
its assumptions - the truth of which shine darkly through the thin veil of your
subsequent lies.
Christine
Subj: Re: Morality and Racism
Date: 3/2/2004 10:49:06 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: pstaud hotmail.com (Peter Staudenmaier)
Reply-to: waldorf-critics topica.com
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Hi Walden, thanks for your contributions on the morality and racism thread.
You wrote:
)What
)a wonderful chance for discussion of Steiner's ideas (racism,
)anti-Semitism - or not) and what do we see? The Staudenmaier Inquisition
)complete with character attacks and paranoia.
I think there is a logic to this approach, one that lines up well with the
premise that people cannot discuss topics like racism without impugning one
another's moral status. Some anthroposophists genuinely believe that for
purposes of public discussion, who you are is more important than what you
say, and are quite baffled when others decline to endorse this basic error.
The recent discussion of my politics is a perfect example of this view of
'morality'; it fits right in with the notion that critically describing and
discussing Steiner's racial doctrines is in and of itself insulting to his
moral character. It may take some time, but eventually anthroposophists will
need to come to terms with racism and antisemitism as belief systems, as
worldviews, that can be examined within their historical contexts and
assessed on that basis. Once that recognition is in place, I think it will
become much easier to talk about what Steiner said, and assess these
doctrines within their historical context, without thereby creating an
unbridgeable gulf between anthroposophist and non-anthroposophist
conceptions of who Steiner was as a person.
Peter S.
)
) "Are you saying that none of the people on this list, and by extension
"all"
) Anthroposophists have any knowledge or experience by which to examine
racism
) and/ or antisemitism as "belief systems, as world views"?"
)
) No, but I do think this is true of many of the anthroposophists I have
) encountered.
)
) "Are you saying that there is something that "we"
) don't recognize about these "belief systems [these] world views" in regard
) to their historical contexts?"
)
) Yes, several of you are apparently unfamiliar with some of the basic
) historical context of antisemitic thinking, for example. I think that is
) getting in the way of an informed discussion of the matter.
)
) "Are you saying that we are all too stupid and/ or uneducated to be able
to
) understand racism and antisemitism as "belief systems [and] world views"
) within their "historical contexts" and therefore are unable to
) "assess [them] on that basis."?"
)
) No, I don't think that stupidity or education level have anything to do
with
) it.
)
) "That way, we would all just accept what you say about the issue as truth
) and say "Amen, brother" and oh, boy, it would certainly be easier for you
to
) talk with all of us, now wouldn't it?"
)
) No, that would obviously make it much harder to talk meaningfully about
the
) topic. You shouldn't believe anything anybody says just because they say
it.
) In this case, I have not offered my own private views on the general
) historical context, I have provided very well established background
) information in order to frame our more specific discussion of Steiner's
) doctrines. I've offered you all sorts of book recommendations and article
) recommendations about the history of antisemitism and the history of racist
) thought. I think we could have a more fruitful discussion if you would take
a
) moment to look into some of them. What do you say?
)
)
) Peter
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 07:00:16 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
Christine Natale wrote:
)
)NO Peter - you are bold-faced Lying!! You DID NOT say "some of you"
)
G'day Christine,
I hope Dan will call you on this as well but I will criticise you for it
anyway. It is absolutely pointless fo you to accuse Peter of lying,
particularly when you can't prove that he is, and when such an acuusation
will get you booted off this list. Nothing you wrote after this claim
demonstrates that Peter lied. At best, you might argue that something Peter
said was inconsistent with some other thing. That may simply be a matter of
Peter being less than perfectly clear, or typographical. The evidence you
would need to establish that he was lying is essentially impossible to get
from the list. Instead, the only interpretation you can make is the same
interpretation he makes about you and others, that is that he is mistaken.
This kind of accusation is precisely why I turned down your invitation to
take part in AT. It is very instructive to read Peter's posts over there. He
never responds to this kind of nonsense except to call it irrelevant. He
addresses the arguments and the evidence.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
SEEK: Now with over 50,000 dream jobs! Click here
http://ninemsn.seek.com.au/
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1281
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Morality and Racism
By pstaud hotmail.com
FW: [Survivors-Action] FW: Camphill Community bids to divert bypass
By jaquesdm msn.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 12:37:36 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Morality and Racism
Hi Christine, you wrote:
"NO Peter - you are bold-faced Lying!!"
If you mean that, then you and I disagree about what lying means. People who
believe what they are saying are not lying, plain and simple.
"You DID NOT say "some of you""
I started out by saying "some anthroposophists" and spelled out which ones I
meant. My post was about those anthroposophists.
"Which is a blanket statement and covers ALL Anthroposophists, not the
"some" who "believe...who you are is more important than what you say.""
I disagree. My "blanket statement" referred to those anthroposophists who
believe that for purposes of public discussion, who you are is more
important than what you say.
"Even though this is NOT a basic error!!"
It is according to standard catalogues of logical fallacies. A good way to
approach public discussion of controversial topics is to ignore who you
think your interlocutors are and concentrate on what they say.
Peter
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 01:20:01 +0000
From: "David Dodds" (jaquesdm msn.com)
Subject: FW: [Survivors-Action] FW: Camphill Community bids to divert bypass
) )
) )--------
) )
) )Camphill Community bids to divert bypass
) )
) )AN INTERNATIONALLY-renowned centre, established more than 60 years ago on
) )the outskirts of Aberdeen for children and adults with special needs,
)will
) )be destroyed by proposals to drive the city's bypass through the heart of
) )the community, it was claimed yesterday.
) )
) )Full article: http://news.scotsman.com/archive.cfm?id=220362004
) )
) )[81.131.232.16]
) )
)
)_________________________________________________________________
)Tired of 56k? Get a FREE BT Broadband connection
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)(*) To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1282
-- Topica Digest --
what constitutes a lie
By feetapparel hotmail.com
true or untrue
By feetapparel hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 00:29:27 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: what constitutes a lie
Over at AT in a cointinuing discussion of lying ,
Daniel Hindes wrote:
PS: A statement that is not true, even though the author believes it to be
true, is still not true. A statement that is not true, and the author knows
it is not true, is a lie.
Peter F reponds over here.
I agree with this precisely. However, by this definition it is absolutely
clear to me that Steiner is guilty of lying as I have claimed before.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
Personalise your phone with chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to
http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 05:23:03 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: true or untrue
In another place I copied this from Peter S.
HI Daniel,
I disagree with your approach to quotation. Full paragraphs are rarely
warranted. There is one thing we appear to agree on. You wrote:
"A thing is either true or untrue, regardless of how we subsequently label
it or whether there is any opprobrium attached to the label."
Exactly. I say the best thing to do is ignore the opprobrium and concentrate
on whether the thing is true or untrue.
Peter
Peter F. responds:
There is a third possibility (I also do not wish to rule out the possibility
of a forth). That is the statement might be neither true or false. It might
be paradoxical. Or it might be insufficiently precise to dtermine truth or
falsehood.
On a different matter, there are aborigines (indigenous Australians or
Kooris) living in Sydney. They have been in the news somewhat lately. I
suspect that assigning a "consciousness" to individuals on the basis of the
geographical location or notions of their race is akin to racism.
See you, peter
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1283
-- Topica Digest --
the founder of anthroposophy
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: the founder of anthroposophy
By nmfoss hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:53:30 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: the founder of anthroposophy
Nicole: Here's an interesting snippet from the anthroposophy_tomorrow list that all parents have a right to know before sending their children to a Waldorf school:
Tarjei:
"What you forget here is that Rudolf Steiner was not the founder of
Anthroposophy; St. Michael was. RS was only the mediator. For that reason,
what Steiner intended can be determined by examining what St. Michael has
been trying to achieve all along."
Nicole: Personally, I'd like to know "what St Michael has been trying to achieve all along" and how my children were meant to fit into that picture. Perhaps Tarjei, or another anthroposophist (Christine?), could enlighten us on that point.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 09:33:48 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: the founder of anthroposophy
Nicole: Here's an interesting snippet from the anthroposophy_tomorrow list that all parents have a right to know before sending their children to a Waldorf school:
Tarjei:
"What you forget here is that Rudolf Steiner was not the founder of
Anthroposophy; St. Michael was. RS was only the mediator. For that reason,
what Steiner intended can be determined by examining what St. Michael has
been trying to achieve all along."
Nicole: Personally, I'd like to know "what St Michael has been trying to achieve all along" and how my children were meant to fit into that picture. Perhaps Tarjei, or another anthroposophist (Christine?), could enlighten us on that point.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1284
-- Topica Digest --
RE: grateful graduate
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 18:43:49 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Cc: "Benson, Sarah (Sen L. Allison)" (Sarah.Benson aph.gov.au)
Subject: RE: grateful graduate
Sarah Benson, you wrote,
)You might be interested in the following. It is a letter published in
)our Victorian broadsheet, The Age, from a recent graduate of a Steiner
)school here in Melbourne, in response to an article about relgious
)education in State schools. I have included the link to the paper that
)has the name of the letter-writer, so to include it here is not an
)invasion of her privacy as it already in the public domain.
Published isn't public domain, but anyway...the letter (see text below) is at:
)http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/15/1076779833758.html?from=storyrhs
The original article is described:
"Secularism in schools is the start of religious tolerance"
If state school students re-enact Christian events, should they also
re-enact events from other faiths?
The original is at:
http://newsstore.theage.com.au/apps/viewDocument.ac?page=1&sy=age&kw=religion&pb=all_ffx&dt=selectRange&dr=1month&so=relevance&st=nw&sf=headline&sf=text&rc=10&rm=200&sp=nrm&clsPage=1&docID=AGE040218JRNL51UJ81E
but you have to register and deposit a minimum of AU$11.00 to read
it. The letter, with my comments:
)A sensible approach to religion in schools
)
)Thank you, Peter Carnley, for your refreshingly sensible article
)(Opinion, 11/2) regarding religious education.
)
)I sang Christmas carols at the school I attended (the Melbourne Rudolph
)Steiner School). I also celebrated Hanukah, performed in plays of
)ancient Greek and Norse myths, and studied a little of Egyptian, Roman,
)Indian, Middle Eastern and Australian Aboriginal myths and beliefs.
)
)By approaching religious education from a mythological perspective, we
)as children were not taught to see these stories as gospel truths or,
)for that matter, as silly fairytales. We were not told about the history
)of the religion itself, only the founding stories. As a result, there
)was never any pressure or prejudice for or against any one religion.
This is a strange way to teach either religion or history, "only the
founding stories." What's really happening is that Waldorf students
are being taken, experientially, through Steiner's stages of the
"evolution of consciousness" through the "sub-races" of the "Aryan
root race" that culminates in, no surprise, Central Europe.
)The advantages of this approach have, in my experience, been great. I
)developed both an interest in and a respect for all religions and their
)followers, and have since been greatly appreciative of this knowledge
)when travelling or studying subjects such as art and literature.
)
)If a balanced religious education can promote understanding between
)peoples, then surely it should be encouraged.
)
)Marleena Forward
)Croydon
I'm glad Ms. Forward acquired a feeling of "understanding between
peoples," but given Waldorf's anti-intellectual approach, a warm and
fuzzy feeling may be all that she got. Regarding balance, there's no
mention of China, the Pacific Islands, or Africa in her list. That's
because these "races" aren't part of Steiner's evolutionary
progression.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1285
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Morality and Racism
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Morality and Racism
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Christine to Peter March 3, 2004
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Christine to Peter March 2, 2004
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: the founder of anthroposophy
By momof2gals mindspring.com
The Founder of Anthroposophy
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: the 9th year stuff
By dan dandugan.com
RE: grateful graduate
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 19:21:45 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Morality and Racism
FWIW, I understood Peter to be addressing his comments to the "some
Anthroposophists" he referenced in an earlier paragraph.
Lisa
) From: Peter Staudenmaier (pstaud hotmail.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 12:37:36 -0600
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Re: Morality and Racism
)
) Hi Christine, you wrote:
)
)
) "NO Peter - you are bold-faced Lying!!"
)
) If you mean that, then you and I disagree about what lying means. People who
) believe what they are saying are not lying, plain and simple.
)
) "You DID NOT say "some of you""
)
) I started out by saying "some anthroposophists" and spelled out which ones I
) meant. My post was about those anthroposophists.
)
)
) "Which is a blanket statement and covers ALL Anthroposophists, not the
) "some" who "believe...who you are is more important than what you say.""
)
) I disagree. My "blanket statement" referred to those anthroposophists who
) believe that for purposes of public discussion, who you are is more
) important than what you say.
)
) "Even though this is NOT a basic error!!"
)
) It is according to standard catalogues of logical fallacies. A good way to
) approach public discussion of controversial topics is to ignore who you
) think your interlocutors are and concentrate on what they say.
)
)
) Peter
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Get business advice and resources to improve your work life, from bCentral.
) http://special.msn.com/bcentral/loudclear.armx
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:10:37 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Re: Morality and Racism
No he was not.
Christine
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:22:22 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Christine to Peter March 3, 2004
Subj: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
Date: 3/3/2004
To: (A HREF="mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com")
anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com(/A)
To: (A HREF="mailto:waldorf-critics topica.com")waldorf-critics topica.com(/A)
In a message dated 3/2/2004 11:20:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pstauden yahoo.de writes:
) Subj: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
) Date: 3/2/2004 11:20:25 PM Eastern Standard Time
) From: pstauden yahoo.de (Peter Staudenmaier)
) Reply-to: (A HREF="mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com")
anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com(/A)
) To: anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com
)
) Hi Christine, thanks for your post. You wrote:
)
)
) "Are you saying, Peter that none of the people on this list have "come to
) terms with racism and antisemitism as belief sytems?" "
)
) No, I'm saying that some of you have not done so, as far as I can tell.
NO Peter - you are bold-faced Lying!! You DID NOT say "some of you"
You said:
"Some anthroposophists genuinely believe that for
purposes of public discussion, who you are is more important than what you
say, and are quite baffled when others decline to endorse this basic error."
But you went on to say:
"It may take some time, but eventually anthroposophists will
need to come to terms with racism and antisemitism as belief systems, as
worldviews, that can be examined within their historical contexts and
assessed on that basis."
"EVENTUALLY ANTHROPOSOPHISTS" not "some anthroposophists" "anthroposophists
like...(certain people you may be directly speaking with on the subject)" not
"a few anthroposophists" or even "a few misguided anthroposophists."
Which is a blanket statement and covers ALL Anthroposophists, not the "some"
who "believe...who you are is more important than what you say." Even though
this is NOT a basic error!! Politicians and leaders of all kinds say many, many
things expressly to mislead and who they are in reality is a very important
thing to understand when trying to decipher truth from falsehood in their words.
Your statement above is indubitably arrogant and presumptious and false in
its assumptions - the truth of which shine darkly through the thin veil of your
subsequent lies.
Christine
Subj: Re: Morality and Racism
Date: 3/2/2004 10:49:06 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: pstaud hotmail.com (Peter Staudenmaier)
Reply-to: waldorf-critics topica.com
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Hi Walden, thanks for your contributions on the morality and racism thread.
You wrote:
)What
)a wonderful chance for discussion of Steiner's ideas (racism,
)anti-Semitism - or not) and what do we see? The Staudenmaier Inquisition
)complete with character attacks and paranoia.
I think there is a logic to this approach, one that lines up well with the
premise that people cannot discuss topics like racism without impugning one
another's moral status. Some anthroposophists genuinely believe that for
purposes of public discussion, who you are is more important than what you
say, and are quite baffled when others decline to endorse this basic error.
The recent discussion of my politics is a perfect example of this view of
'morality'; it fits right in with the notion that critically describing and
discussing Steiner's racial doctrines is in and of itself insulting to his
moral character. It may take some time, but eventually anthroposophists will
need to come to terms with racism and antisemitism as belief systems, as
worldviews, that can be examined within their historical contexts and
assessed on that basis. Once that recognition is in place, I think it will
become much easier to talk about what Steiner said, and assess these
doctrines within their historical context, without thereby creating an
unbridgeable gulf between anthroposophist and non-anthroposophist
conceptions of who Steiner was as a person.
Peter S.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:21:33 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Christine to Peter March 2, 2004
Subj: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
Date: 3/2/2004
To: (A HREF="mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com")
anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com(/A)
To: (A HREF="mailto:waldorf-critics topica.com")waldorf-critics topica.com(/A)
In a message dated 3/2/2004 8:58:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
golden3000997 cs.com writes:
) It may take some time, but eventually anthroposophists will
) need to come to terms with racism and antisemitism as belief systems, as
) worldviews, that can be examined within their historical contexts and
) assessed on that basis. Once that recognition is in place, I think it will
) become much easier to talk about what Steiner said, and assess these
) doctrines within their historical context,
Are you saying, Peter that none of the people on this list have "come to
terms with racism and antisemitism as belief sytems?" Are you saying that none of
the people on this list, and by extension "all" Anthroposophists have any
knowledge or experience by which to examine racism and/ or antisemitism as "belief
systems, as world views"? Are you saying that there is something that "we"
don't recognize about these "belief systems [these] world views" in regard to
their historical contexts? Mind you - you said "historical contexts" NOT
"Anthropsophical contexts". Are you saying that we are all too stupid and/ or
uneducated to be able to understand racism and antisemitism as "belief systems [and]
world views" within their "historical contexts" and therefore are unable to
"assess [them] on that basis."?
Because that is exactly what you are saying AND what would make it "much
easier to talk about what Steiner said, and assess these doctrines within their
historical context," would be if we all were actually too stupid and uneducated
to assess racism and antisemitism within their historical contexts. That way,
we would all just accept what you say about the issue as truth and say "Amen,
brother" and oh, boy, it would certainly be easier for you to talk with all of
us, now wouldn't it?
Christine
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 19:20:26 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: the founder of anthroposophy
I was a Waldorf parent for almost six years and have spent the last four
studying Steiner and Anthroposophy, and this is the first time I have heard
someone say that Steiner did NOT found Anthroposophy, that he was only the
vehicle through which St. Michael (pronounced the Anthro way: mah-k-eye-el)
spoke and acted. (In fact, if anyone can tell me why Waldorf teachers
pronounce the name "Michael" that way, I would be appreciative.)
Like Nicole, I would be interested in more info on this. What was St.
Michael trying to achieve, and how did Steiner know that?
Lisa
) From: Nicole Foss (nmfoss hotmail.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 09:33:48 -0500
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Re: the founder of anthroposophy
)
)
) Nicole: Here's an interesting snippet from the anthroposophy_tomorrow list
) that all parents have a right to know before sending their children to a
) Waldorf school:
)
) Tarjei:
) "What you forget here is that Rudolf Steiner was not the founder of
) Anthroposophy; St. Michael was. RS was only the mediator. For that reason,
) what Steiner intended can be determined by examining what St. Michael has
) been trying to achieve all along."
)
) Nicole: Personally, I'd like to know "what St Michael has been trying to
) achieve all along" and how my children were meant to fit into that picture.
) Perhaps Tarjei, or another anthroposophist (Christine?), could enlighten us on
) that point.
)
)
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 21:35:13 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: The Founder of Anthroposophy
Dear Lisa et al,
It is pronounced "mi-cha-el" just like you would say "ga-bri-el" and
"ra-pha-el". The "el" at the end of each name means "God". Michael means "countenance
of God".
The Archangel Michael, as we take him to be, is "The Founder of
Anthroposophy" because he is the supreme champion of the development of Human Freedom and
the "I" or Individuality of each Human Being. He slays the dragon of the
falsehood of materialism and protects the Eternal Feminine who gives birth to the
New Human Being.
Rudolf Steiner spoke of a "Michael School" which took place in the 1800s in
which many, many individualities who were about to come into physical
incarnation were "enrolled". This "school" brought souls together who had been pursuing
many different paths to the Spiritual World and taught them (literally) how
the piece of the cosmic puzzle through the long ages of time fit together and
how crucial it is for each Human Being to find his or her own direct way to the
Spiritual World and to the Christ Being from with in their physical life.
This was not an "indoctrination" - it was a bringing together of people who had
sought truth and love throughout the ages and united them in knowledge and
purpose.
Rudolf Steiner was a great teacher of this "Michael School" - not a guru, not
a "cult leader", not a person interested in interfering with or directing
other people's free will. But a true teacher - one who made himself available to
the Spiritual World and to the Human Beings now living in the material world.
Not as a "channel" or "sleeping prophet" but one who worked to be able to
perceive Spiritual reality as concretely and objectively as any person can
perceive the physical world. And he worked to make not only the knowledge about this
objective reality available to people, but a safe, moral and fully concious
path to knowledge of this spiritual reality so that they would be able to
develop the "tools" of spiritual perception in a healthy and verifiable way.
All of the work of Rudolf Steiner is directly inspired by the Archangel
Michael as the "countenance" or "representative" of the Christ Being - the
Archetype of all Humankind - ALL. Not one word is meant to be or expected to be or
really, allowed to be taken on "faith" or because "he said so." Every word is
given in Freedom and can ONLY be taken in Freedom or rejected in Freedom. By the
same token, every word and every spiritual impulse behind those words is given
to Humanity as a Whole - not one person excluded, not one person judged for
"worthiness" or even for capacity to understand. Just as the Sun shines on
every person who steps out of his or her house, so does the Light of Truth shine
for all who choose to open their "eyes" - their hearts and minds.
How each person chooses to do this; why each person chooses to do this; what
results in each person who chooses to do this is entirely their own business.
No one judges or has a right to judge. Even when ideas or interpretations of
ideas get misinterpreted or distorted - unintentionally or intentionally -
often others do not interfere, exactly because of the great respect every person
who is a student of Rudolf Steiner has for the "I" of the other person and the
responsibility that each one carries for what lives inside his or her true
individuality. This can create problems, due to the fallability of people, but it
stands in opposition to the "dogmatic" view of "religious truth" that has
carried humanity through up to now. We stand at the Threshold of an age in which
we cannot and will not be led "blindly" by churches, governments or any other
social institution. Mankind faces the challenge of having to "stand on our own
two feet." We see in our time mostly tragedy occuring when people try to go
back to various forms of "group conciousness" in their spiritual strivings.
There can be a community of the heart involved in Anthroposophy, but never one
which expects the Individual to "surrender" his or her own knowledge,
discernment and freedom of thought, word or deed.
What is it that the Archangel Michael is "trying to achieve" through Rudolf
Steiner and all who choose freely to take up a work such as Waldorf Education?
It is always and absolutely that each and every individual shall find an
environment, a community and a vocation that allows as much as possible (given the
limits of space, time and the wider social fabric of our time) that person to
fulfill the intentions that he or she came into this earth existence with.
That each human being, to the best of whatever the circumstances will allow have
a childhood which allows him or her to develop in as healthy a way as
possible; that allows for a gradual sequence of unfolding of abilities, talents and
interests; that strives to work for harmonizing potentially harmful tendencies;
that seeks the kind of balance of Form and Freedom that gives the growing
human being both encouragement to grow and healthy boundaries; that works to
nurture in each developing human being a profound respect for life, for the earth,
for every form of life on the earth, for each other and for him and her self;
that brings to each child the as many of the infinite names and faces and
manifestations of God as possible, so that he or she may discover the "door" in
his or her own heart that opens easily to God in whatever form or manifestation
that person desires and requires.
Perhaps you and others have encountered "Anthroposophists", "Waldorf
Schools", "Waldorf Teachers" etc. who fail miserably to live up to the statements
above. Have you ever known a "Christian" to fail to live up to the teachings of
Christ? I know that I have failed, pretty much every day of my life and may
continue to fail for several more lifetimes. Without the hope of and knowledge of
and experience of Forgiveness, I know that I could never try again. I believe
that there are others who would feel the same way. Have we failed you and your
children in some way? I do not doubt it if you say so. Speaking for myself, I
feel it deeply and I know it from every side. I have been on the receiving
end of unkindness and lack of understanding as well - from my "fellow" Steiner
people and Waldorf people.
But I have also seen and heard and experienced those moments of love and
understanding and true acceptance such as I have never seen or experienced
anywhere else. I have had my moments, too when real, viable good was accomplished,
even by me - moments I can attest to and carry with me with pride for my efforts
and reverance for the guidance that I received in the process.
Do we have a long way to go? Absolutely! We are still in the infancy of the
work. There are still a many years and many "miles" to go. The Archangel
Michael guides us and helps us when we ask for help, but he does not do the work for
us. He does not expect us to "surrender" our wills. He expects us (all human
beings) to strengthen our Will and through our Free Will to work for the Power
of Love and Truth that lives within each and every one of us.
With respect,
Christine
Rudolf Steiner - found at the end of "Study of Man"
Teacher's Verse at Faculty Meetings
Imbue thyself with the Power of Imagination
Have Courage for the Truth
Sharpen thy Feeling for Responsibility of Soul
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 22:04:29 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: the 9th year stuff
madpark nildram.co.uk wrote:
)Can someone please explain the 9th year stuff they talk about?
[Childs, Gilbert. Steiner Education: in theory and practice.
Edinburgh: Floris Books, 1991, pp. 92-93]
"The undesirability of appealing directly to the intellect of the
child before puberty has already been discussed from the
spiritual-scientific point of view, but the rationale behind the
reluctance to teach the children to read before the age of eight or
nine was not specifically dealt with. It may be recalled that, at
about the age of nine the child develops or acquires a heightened
sense of selfhood; it feels more of an individuality. It feels less
sympathetic-in the technical sense-towards its surroundings, it feels
less at one with them. Conversely, it feels more antipathetic to its
environment, and this it is which helps to induce the enhanced
self-consciousness; the child is capable of greater powers of
objectification and therefore a sharpened capacity for the
intellectual process of apprehending concepts. It would follow,
therefore, that it is most appropriate for the child to learn to read
at the age of eight or nine, and Steiner frequently reiterated this."
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 21:48:39 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: grateful graduate
Sarah Benson, you wrote:
)Dan, my impression is that you've made up your mind that Waldorf
)education has no merit at all.
There are many things about Waldorf that I still like after fifteen
years of critical study, but the system is so shot through with
nonsense that I don't think it can be reformed.
)I can't see why you're still involved in
)this discussion.
Because the Steiner cult fascinates me. Because I know what it's
about and I won't tolerate making taxpayers pay for it.
)Move on, get a life.
I have a wonderfully full life, thanks for your advice anyway. Let's
talk about the topic, not me, please. I wrote,
)What's really happening is that Waldorf students
)are being taken, experientially, through Steiner's stages of the
)"evolution of consciousness" through the "sub-races" of the "Aryan
)root race" that culminates in, no surprise, Central Europe.
Is this the first time you've heard that the framework of ancient
history in the fifth and sixth grades is based on a racial theory of
history? I realize it can be a bit shocking.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1286
-- Topica Digest --
re: the founder of Anthroposophy
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: grateful graduate
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: grateful graduate
By dan dandugan.com
Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Cult - NOT
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Cult - NOT
By Golden3000997 cs.com
websites in which "Anthroposophy" and the word "cult" are linked
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: websites in which "Anthroposophy" and the word "cult" are linked
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: the 9th year stuff
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: the 9th year stuff
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Cult - NOT
By dan dandugan.com
Re: the 9th year stuff
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Cult - NOT
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 07:34:50 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: re: the founder of Anthroposophy
Christine tells us:
Rudolf Steiner was a great teacher of this "Michael School" - not a guru,
not
a "cult leader", not a person interested in interfering with or directing
other people's free will. But a true teacher - one who made himself
available to
the Spiritual World and to the Human Beings now living in the material
world.
Not as a "channel" or "sleeping prophet" but one who worked to be able to
perceive Spiritual reality as concretely and objectively as any person can
perceive the physical world ..
Lisa: But Christine, how can you know this for sure? How can you prove (you
can't) that Steiner could perceive "spiritual reality as concretely and
objectively as any person can perceive the physical world?"
You take that Steiner could perceive spiritual realities in the same
manner as ordinary people perceive, say, a chair and desk in front of them,
on faith. There is no way to prove this; like in any other religion,
followers *believe* because the "truth" offered by their
guru/teacher/minister/rabbi/imam, etc. appeals to them, explains something
about the universe, is comforting and makes the big questions of human
existence more bearable.
I don't think anyone here would quarrel with your right to believe what
you want about Steiner and whether his teachings are truth. That's your
choice.
What is troublesome, however, is the fact that followers of any
religion/faith path/etc. insist that their way is THE way, the truth, and if
only the rest of us unenlightened would just listen, study, and so on, we,
too, would "get" it.
Bottom line: just because you *choose* to believe something does not make
it true. There is simply no way to prove that what Steiner said and taught
is real.
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:56:35 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Re: grateful graduate
Mr. Dugan,
There is no such thing as a "Steiner cult" and you know it. This is a vicious
and evil lie and I have already forwarded you substantial definitions of what
a cult is and isn't and how, according to those definitions neither
Anthroposophy nor Waldorf Education is, was or ever will be a cult.
Given the true meaning of the word "cult" in this society as a group which
manipulates and abuses its members, applying this word to the Anthroposophical
Society and the Waldorf Movement is absolute slander and libel.
You will be held responsible for both your use of this word and the intention
behind it, hopefully in court.
I would suggest that in your search for the truth about Anthroposophy and
Waldorf Education, you do some objective research on the definition and correct
application of the word "cult"; that you cease using it immediately in
connection with either Waldorf Education or the Anthroposophical Society; and that
you print a retraction of your former use of the word in relation to either one
of these entities.
I am pretty sure that your egotism will not allow you to admit that you are
wrong and to do the right thing. But I hope for your sake that I am wrong in
that evaluation, just as you are terribly wrong in yours.
Christine Natale
March 9, 2004
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:26:46 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
Christine wrote: Rudolf Steiner spoke of a "Michael School" which took place in the 1800s in
which many, many individualities who were about to come into physical
incarnation were "enrolled". This "school" brought souls together who had been pursuing
many different paths to the Spiritual World and taught them (literally) how
the piece of the cosmic puzzle through the long ages of time fit together and
how crucial it is for each Human Being to find his or her own direct way to the
Spiritual World and to the Christ Being from with in their physical life.
This was not an "indoctrination" - it was a bringing together of people who had
sought truth and love throughout the ages and united them in knowledge and
purpose.
Nicole: Thank you for your explanation of the anthroposophical worldview. I very much appreciate your taking the time to provide it. This is very much the sort of information that parents need to have in order to make an informed choice about Waldorf education.
Christine wrote: All of the work of Rudolf Steiner is directly inspired by the Archangel
Michael as the "countenance" or "representative" of the Christ Being - the
Archetype of all Humankind - ALL. Not one word is meant to be or expected to be or
really, allowed to be taken on "faith" or because "he said so." Every word is
given in Freedom and can ONLY be taken in Freedom or rejected in Freedom. By the
same token, every word and every spiritual impulse behind those words is given
to Humanity as a Whole - not one person excluded, not one person judged for
"worthiness" or even for capacity to understand. Just as the Sun shines on
every person who steps out of his or her house, so does the Light of Truth shine
for all who choose to open their "eyes" - their hearts and minds.
Nicole: I agree with Lisa that accepting what Steiner said as truth must be a matter of faith as there is no way to verify it. You either believe that he was a clairvoyant Master and therefore had privileged access to the Akashic Record (the cosmic memory of all human existence according to Steiner), or you do not. This 'fact' cannot be investigated independently and objectively.
I am glad you have found a 'truth' which gives your life purpose, but please understand that your 'truth' is not my 'truth'. The anthroposophical worldview is not compatible with mine and I would have appreciated it if the Waldorf school my children attended had been more forthcoming with their 'philosophy' before we enrolled. I would then have made a different educational choice for my family. Thank you for helping to inform prospective parents.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:39:09 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: grateful graduate
)Mr. Dugan,
)
)There is no such thing as a "Steiner cult" and you know it.
(gumpvoice) Cults is as cults does. (/gumpvoice)
)This is a vicious
)and evil lie and I have already forwarded you substantial definitions of what
)a cult is and isn't and how, according to those definitions neither
)Anthroposophy nor Waldorf Education is, was or ever will be a cult.
My opinion differs from yours.
)Given the true meaning of the word "cult" in this society as a group which
)manipulates and abuses its members, applying this word to the Anthroposophical
)Society and the Waldorf Movement is absolute slander and libel.
It isn't libel to state an opinion, nor is it libel to point out
facts. I call Anthroposophy a cult-like religious sect. There is
abundant evidence to support this opinion.
)You will be held responsible for both your use of this word and the intention
)behind it, hopefully in court.
)
)I would suggest that in your search for the truth about Anthroposophy and
)Waldorf Education, you do some objective research on the definition
)and correct
)application of the word "cult"; that you cease using it immediately in
)connection with either Waldorf Education or the Anthroposophical
)Society; and that
)you print a retraction of your former use of the word in relation to
)either one
)of these entities.
So sue me. We'd love to have publicity about this issue.
)I am pretty sure that your egotism will not allow you to admit that you are
)wrong and to do the right thing. But I hope for your sake that I am wrong in
)that evaluation, just as you are terribly wrong in yours.
)
)Christine Natale
)March 9, 2004
Christine, your religion will get more respect when it starts
behaving respectably. Here is a list of cult-like characteristics
that's published on the PLANS web site:
Posted to waldorf-critics On 2/9/99 by Dan Dugan...
Cult-like characteristics of Anthroposophy include:
* It clings to rejected knowledge.
(The heart is not a pump, etc.)
* It requires teachers to commit to the world-view for advancement in status.
(college of teachers)
* Its core doctrines are not published.
(First Class)
* It is exclusive.
(Only Anthroposophical knowledge of man leads to right education)
* It guards revelation of "difficult" knowledge.
(Prospective parents won't be told about the role of Lucifer)
* It is a closed system.
(Almost all publications referenced are from Anthroposophical presses
and periodicals, all writers refer to Steiner)
* It uses jargon that redefines common terms.
(Child development)
* It maintains separation from the world by generating fear and loathing.
(Denigrating public schools, "us vs them" attitude, paranoia)
* It suppresses critical dialogue, resulting in elaboration but no
development of theory.
(Consensus government, "like it or leave," Shunning)
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 21:05:24 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
Nicole wrote:
I agree with Lisa that accepting what Steiner said as truth must be a matter
of faith as there is no way to verify it. You either believe that he was a
clairvoyant Master and therefore had privileged access to the Akashic Record
(the cosmic memory of all human existence according to Steiner), or you do
not. This 'fact' cannot be investigated independently and objectively.
)
Peter F. adds:
I don't agree with this. It seems to me that at least some of what Steiner
said and claimed does fall into the class of those things that can be tested
independently of this faith. Much of biodynamic practice, Anthroposophical
medical practce, aspects of the educational approach, and much of his
writings on scientific matters can be examined with a view to verification
or to falsification. My own opinion is that a great deal of what Steiner had
to say is evidently incorrect. If what he had to say on issues that we can
independently test is wrong, why should we not make a skeptical judgement of
what he had to say which is harder or impossible to test.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
Find love today with ninemsn personals. Click here:
http://ninemsn.match.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 17:22:44 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
Lisa here: Peter F., of course what you say is correct: one *can* and many
probably already *have* tested some of Steiner's theories and teachings and
found them to be invalid.
My statement that followers must decide to put faith in Steiner without
proof referred to Christine's assertion that Steiner could see the spiritual
world as clearly as we ordinary mortals see the table or chair or grass in
front of us. Indeed, there is no way to prove that. (And I do not believe
it.)
) From: Peter Farrell (feetapparel hotmail.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 21:05:24 +0000
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
)
) Nicole wrote:
) I agree with Lisa that accepting what Steiner said as truth must be a matter
) of faith as there is no way to verify it. You either believe that he was a
) clairvoyant Master and therefore had privileged access to the Akashic Record
) (the cosmic memory of all human existence according to Steiner), or you do
) not. This 'fact' cannot be investigated independently and objectively.
))
)
) Peter F. adds:
) I don't agree with this. It seems to me that at least some of what Steiner
) said and claimed does fall into the class of those things that can be tested
) independently of this faith. Much of biodynamic practice, Anthroposophical
) medical practce, aspects of the educational approach, and much of his
) writings on scientific matters can be examined with a view to verification
) or to falsification. My own opinion is that a great deal of what Steiner had
) to say is evidently incorrect. If what he had to say on issues that we can
) independently test is wrong, why should we not make a skeptical judgement of
) what he had to say which is harder or impossible to test.
) See you, Peter
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Find love today with ninemsn personals. Click here:
) http://ninemsn.match.com
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:37:19 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Cult - NOT
In their efforts to acquire a base of support for their legal efforts against
Waldorf Charter Schools, PLANS has actively sought particular statements by
Rudolf Steiner and passages from published books and books of lectures that can
be interpreted to make Rudolf Steiner, the philosophical movement known as
Anthroposophy and by association, the Waldorf School Movement to appear to be an
elitist, racist organization that promotes a narrow world view that seeks to
involve people in a cult movement. The words "racism" and "cult" are powerful
buzz words in this culture and are very effective in promoting an emotional
backlash toward any group associated with them. PLANS has been well aware that
the use of these words would gain them a large number of supporters who may
other wise have no particular objection to the presence of Waldorf Education in
their public school classroom, indeed, who may not have had any particular
interest in it, one way or another. The WC/ PLANS organization has gone out of its
way to paint the Anthroposophical Movement and everyone in it with the
National Socialism emblem and to associate it emotionally with a neo-nazi cult
mentality. This is a libelous association which does a severe injustice to the
movement at large and to the widely diverse philosophical, social and political
backgrounds of its members and associates. It is my belief that PLANS has a
legal basis for removal of Waldorf Education from the public school system without
this defamation of character (although support for its objectives may have
been slower to come and smaller in scope). The association of WE/ Anthroposophy
with either word must be stopped and irrefutable evidence brought forward into
the arenas of legal and social opinion that both Anthroposophy and Waldorf
Education are in concept and practice universally human and make no qualitative
or quantitative differential between any persons in respect to race, creed,
color, sex or national origin. In fact, Waldorf Schools for example are more
universally inclusive in both concept and practice than many private school
systems and organizations and have a curriculum in which is built a basic
introduction to every religious thought system of mankind - ancient and modern. To my
knowledge, no other school system has this claim to make.
As to the use of the word "cult" in relation to either the Anthroposophical
Movement or the Waldorf Education Movement, this is also a libelous allegation
and it does not stand up against current definitions of "cult" which can be
found in movement such as the following:
www.factnet.org
American Family Foundation (AFF)
Community Resources on Influence & Control (CRIC)
Cult Awareness & Information Centre, Australia
Cult Awareness Network (CAN)
Cult Hotline & Clinic
Cult Information Center (CIC)
Dialog Center International (DCI)
Escape
Ex-Cult Archive
FAIR
Info Cult
reFOCUS Network
Religious Movement Resource Center
Resource Center for Freedom of Mind
The Ross Institute
V.V.P.G. vzw
Watchman Fellowship
Wellspring Retreat and Resource Center
Cult Information Service
The Ex Cult Member Organization
While any group of people whose stated purpose is to study and possibly put
into practice the ideas and teachings of any individual, living or dead, can be
viewed to a certain point as a "cult", which would include by such
definition, all recognized churches and philosophical organizations, the use of "cult"
in the context of attack against the Waldorf School and Anthropsophical
movements has been an attempt to associate them with the concept of "coersive
persuasion". Cults which perform the actions and reactions that make of the technique
of "coersive persuasion" use the following tactics as outlined at
www.factnet.org:
*******************
HOW TO DETERMINE IF A GROUP IS A DESTRUCTIVE CULT
Q) Anybody can unfairly attack a group they disagree with by calling it a
cult or saying they are using coercive mind control. How does FACTNet prevent
this type of problem and determine fairly whether or not a group is a cult?
A) FACTNet uses specific criteria to determine if a mind control system has
been used, and does not suggest organizations are destructive or dangerous
cults without careful research and determination that the evidence fits definite
criteria. These criteria are threefold.
The first set of criteria comes from the group' use of a specific set of mind
control tactics. Please see "A technical overview of mind control tactics" at
http://www.factnet.org/rancho1.htm for details or see
http://www.factnet.org/coercivemindcontrol.html for a shorter version. These two documents are
derived from the work of Dr. Margaret Singer professor emeritus at the University of
California at Berkeley the acknowledged leading authority in the world on
mind control and cults.
The second set of criteria has to do with defining other common elements of
mind control systems, as defined by Robert Jay Lifton's eight point model of
thought reform. Please see "Robert Jay Lifton's Eight Point Model of Thought
Reform" also at http://www.factnet.org/rancho1.htm. If most points in this model
are being used in a cultic organization, it is most likely a dangerous and
destructive cult.
The third set of criteria have to do with defining common elements of
destructive and dangerous cults. The following section will help clarify what some of
those specific elements and criteria are.
Common Properties of Potentially Destructive and Dangerous Cults
The cult is authoritarian in its power structure. The leader is regarded as
the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few
subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes and
roles. There is no appeal outside of his or her system to greater systems of
justice. For example, if a school teacher
feels unjustly treated by a principal, appeals can be made. In a cult, the
leader claims to have the only and final ruling on all matters.
The cult's leaders tend to be charismatic, determined, and domineering. They
persuade followers to drop their families, jobs, careers, and friends to
follow them. They (not the individual) then take over control of their followers'
possessions, money, lives.
The cult's leaders are self-appointed, messianic persons who claim to have a
special mission in life. For example, the flying saucer cult leaders claim
that people from outer space have commissioned them to lead people to special
places to await a space ship.
The cult's leaders center the veneration of members upon themselves. Priests,
rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and leaders of genuinely altruistic
movements keep the veneration of adherents focused on God, abstract principles,
and group purposes. Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love,
devotion, and allegiance on themselves.
The cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of the behavior of its
members. Cults are likely to dictate in great detail what members wear, eat, when
and where they work, sleep, and bathe-as well as what to believe, think, and
say.
The cult tends to have a double set of ethics. Members are urged to be open
and honest within the group, and confess all to the leaders. On the other hand,
they are encouraged to deceive and manipulate outsiders or nonmembers.
Established religions teach members to be honest and truthful to all, and to abide
by one set of ethics.
The cult has basically only two purposes, recruiting new members and
fund-raising. Established religions and altruistic movements may also recruit and
raise funds. However, their sole purpose is not to grow larger; such groups have
the goals to better the lives of their members and mankind in general. The
cults may claim to make social contributions, but in actuality these remain mere
claims, or gestures. Their focus is always dominated by recruiting new members
and fund-raising.
The cult appears to be innovative and exclusive. The leader claims to be
breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the only viable
system for change that will solve life's problems or the world's ills. While
claiming this, the cult then surreptitiously uses systems of psychological
coercion on its members to inhibit their ability to examine the actual validity
of the claims of the leader and the cult.
*****************************
A careful, honest and factual study of Rudolf Steiner and the
Anthroposophical movement will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that NONE of the above
criteria apply. The last criterium seems to be the one that the WC/PLANS groups most
want to associate with the WE movement. However, the following is in fact the
truth:
1. Rudolf Steiner carefully placed his teaching in the context of objective
world history and scientific fact as it was known through 1925.
Anthroposophists since 1925 have constantly re-examined the original world to see if it
remains valid in light of developments in both fields since 1925.
2. There is no social, economic or political structure in place anywhere in
the world by which the Anthroposophical Society headquartered in Dornach,
Switzerland or the Anthroposophical Society at large can influence anyone to join
the movement, pay money to the movement or limit their personal expression and/
or interpretation of Rudolf Steiner's material. There is no persuasive
element, either obvious or covert that can or tries to put pressure on anyone inside
or outside of the organization to "believe" anything that Dr. Steiner said or
to support through words, deeds or money any ideas contained in his work or
any individuals who have gone on to work with his ideas. Members of the
Anthroposophical Movement are not under any directive, spoken or unspoken as to what
they wear, eat, read, watch, listen to, say or do. Members are never
encouraged in any way (direct or indirect) to avoid or ignore other religious
teachings, scientific findings or philosophical, social or political ideologies.
Members are never requested, directly or indirectly, to locate in a geographic area
or to limit or restrict their contacts with any family members or friends
outside the "movement." Members are never requested or required to reliquish any
memberships or associations with any other religious, political or social
organizations. Members are never limited or restricted in participating in the work
or society of the movement through judgments or evaluations by other members,
other than considerations of basic civic and ethical proprieties. Members do
not hold in "veneration" any other member of the society, either living or
dead, including Rudolf Steiner, beyond an affectionate respect. Members do not
actively recruit people to join the Anthroposophical Society, nor is there any
such recruitement system in existence. Members are never solicited for money
except for yearly dues if active, subscription fees for publications and
occasional appeals for economic assistance for specific projects, the response to
which is always voluntary and confidential.
3. Rudolf Steiner never promoted himself or allowed himself to be promoted as
a cult leader or figure. In point of fact, when the Anthroposophical Society
was created, after a group of people wished to separate themselves from the
Theosophical Society, Rudolf Steiner was asked to be the "President" of the
Society. He refused the position, while agreeing to be involved as a teacher and
lecturer. It was only after the burning of the first Goetheanum in Dornach on
New Year's Eve, 1921, that Rudolf Steiner accepted the position of the
President of the Anthroposophical Society in an effort to renew the courage and
vitality of the worldwide movement in the face of brutal attack (my interpretation).
Rudolf Steiner maintained avidly the supreme importance of the individual's
study of Anthroposophical concepts on their own, and their own personal
connection with and committment to those ideas. He refused point blank on many
occasions to tell any person what he or she "ought to do" in any given situation,
personal or Society related. He stated definitively on many occasions what the
result (physical, emotional or spiritual) was of particular human activities,
but he expressly left it to the individual to do or not do what he or she saw
fit.
The other primary objection that I have to the tactics and strategies of the
WC/ PLANS groups is the use of personal problems as being illustrative of
problems to be found worldwide inherently in the practice of Waldorf Education. By
this I mean, that while each individual parent or family has a perfect right
to express dissatisfaction with the methods and practice of Waldorf Education
in relation to themselves, they repeatedly infer that Waldorf methods and
techniques are inherently destructive to all students and their families. They
also characterize all Waldorf Teachers and Waldorf Schools as being uniformly
alike and "mindless" in their application of those methods and techniques. This
is far from the truth and borders on a "smear" campaign. In the stories that I
have read so far on their websites, I find no indication that the whole story
is being told or that the parents feel themselves to have had any
responsibility for the outcomes of the situations they are describing.
I personally have never known two Waldorf teachers to be exactly alike on
anything! I have never known any Waldorf teachers who are instructed to "take
Steiner's word for it." or who would consent to do so. I have known Waldorf
teachers who were not Anthroposophists and many who considered themselves
Anthroposophists but who also participated in other religious or philosophical groups
at the same time. There were conflicts from time to time when several teachers,
usually with a group of parents, tried to promote an outside sect (for
example, Sufiism) in a school in a way that interfered with standard Waldorf
curriculum and practice.
I can't even remember having had any "Anthroposophical" parents in the
initiative schools that I taught at. (I'm trying to remember if there were.) I have
had classes of children whose parents ranged from "pagan" to "Christian" with
everything possible in between. I can't remember any Moslems, but I have
written an article called "Religion in the Waldorf Schools" which outlines why I
think most fundamentalist Christian or Moslem parents would not choose a Waldorf
School for their children. The Waldorf curriculum is specifically designed to
expose all of the students to all major world religions at the appropriate
age and stage of development of the child. Any parent with a strong
fundamentalist or atheistic view would quite rightly not choose a Waldorf School for his
or her child. Every parent should be made aware of the Waldorf curriculum and
how it is taught as soon as they approach the school for information.
Lastly, I object to the tactic used by both the Waldorf Critics and PLANS
groups of asking for answers to their questions or objections then refusing to
listen to the answers or information provided or to acknowledge the honest and
open minded efforts of Waldorf supporters. This is a common strategy (concious
or otherwise) of groups and individuals who adopt an offensive approach.
Questions asked with this motivation are designed only as springboards to further
attacks and the position in taken in which it is assumed that the side being
attacked will not provide any meaningful answers. The motivation here is not one
of inquiry and research but of adversarial debate. Since PLANS has a legal
agenda to promote, it makes sense to use the political debate forum as a model.
Unfortunately, political debates are not designed to reach understanding and
consenus of opinion. They are designed to be emotionally charged and devisive
and usually, to mask real problems behind the buzz words and catch phrases of
popular "issues." A real mutual study of Waldorf methods and educational
perspectives in the light of other philosophies and techniques of education in use
today in both public and private schools would be a really useful tool for
educators and parents in the Waldorf Movement and outside of it. Like any other
practice, in art or science, there is always room for evaluation and adaptation.
Human beings are never static, children the least of all. There is something
new to be learned every day. We do not live in the same world as Rudolf
Steiner, Maria Montessori, Piaget, Froebel, Dewey, Aristotle, Albertus Comenius,
Sylvia Ashton-Warner or any other wonderful educator or educational philosopher
that we can study and learn from. Every idea has to be metamorphosed into
today's lesson, today's experience.
I have heard experienced Waldorf teachers say that after they have completed
an eight year journey with one class, when they come to take a second First
Grade, it is like they never taught before. The world has already changed and
the children have changed too. So has the teacher. It is a different concept
from the kind of school where a teacher may teach Third Grade for thirty years,
after a while possibly falling into a "routine" of teaching the same material
the same way, no matter what the children may bring into the classroom,
adapting only to material obtained from time to time through required "teacher
refresher" courses mandated by the state. This repetition of material has as its
very good intention the goal of making a teacher an "expert" in his or her field
and niche of curriculum. It does not, however, failsafe against mistakes that
the teacher may make, in some cases repeatedly. It does not guarantee the
optimisation of student learning from year to year. It does not guarantee that
every child in a public school will be understood and evaluated as an individual
and that each child's strengths and weaknesses will be factored into the
learning process by every teacher he meets in the course of eight years. Waldorf
schools cannot make that guarantee, either. But the fact that the teacher must
"live" with the results of his or her mistakes over the course of eight years
and cannot pass them off to another teacher in the following year, means that
the teacher is inherently making a committment to self evaluation and continued
learning and growth. The smaller size of any private school and the more
intimate working together of parents and teachers to promote and support the
school offers the opportunity for more frequent dialogue and communication. It may
also lead to more heartbreak when such communication breaks down, but it is a
very human risk and must be weighed against the kind of state school system
where the communication is less frequent and more artificially constructed and
censored.
Waldorf Education requires the following principles, the three H's of
education, from every one of its participants - parent or teacher:
Honesty - to be ruthlessly honest with one's self and tactfully honest with
each other
Humility - to be ready to learn and adapt to what comes both from the
children and from the community
Honor - to honor both the ideals which live in one's own heart, mind and soul
and to honor what lives in the heart, mind and soul of the other, whether
child or adult
To the extent to which any group that seeks to criticize or challenge the
Waldorf School Movement and its Members, that group should adopt, promote and
defend these three principles as well.
Christine Natale
February 8, 2004
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:38:19 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Cult - NOT
In a message dated 3/9/2004 2:55:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
dan dandugan.com writes:
) Cult-like characteristics of Anthroposophy include:
Where do you get the definitions that you have listed?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 21:34:06 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: websites in which "Anthroposophy" and the word "cult" are linked
Christine,
You argue quite passionately that Anthroposophy is not a cult, and offer as
evidence reference to a number of organizations whose definition of the word
"cult" you claim would prove that unfitting to describe Anthroposophy.
Having 10 minutes to spare, I typed the words "Anthroposophy" and "cult"
into Google, and came up with pages and pages of Websites, including the
following:
http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/pseudo/anthropos.html
http://www.cults.co.nz/ae.html
http://skepdic.com/comments/steinercom.html
http://www.gkindia.com/therapies/anthroposophicalmedicine.htm
http://www.geocities.com/mibby529/rogues.html
http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/pseudo/
http://psychicinvestigator.com/demo/Cults.htm
http://cultpreres.users4.50megs.com/
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/books/evans/
http://www.csj.org/pubs_co/guestcolumn/newrelmovaagaard.htm
Lisa
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:59:06 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Re: websites in which "Anthroposophy" and the word "cult" are linked
In a message dated 3/9/2004 9:39:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
momof2gals mindspring.com writes:
) Subj: websites in which "Anthroposophy" and the word "cult" are linked
) Date: 3/9/2004 9:39:44 PM Eastern Standard Time
) From: momof2gals mindspring.com (Lisa D. Ercolano)
) Reply-to: (A HREF="mailto:waldorf-critics topica.com")
waldorf-critics topica.com(/A)
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com (Waldorf Critics)
)
) Christine,
)
) You argue quite passionately that Anthroposophy is not a cult, and offer as
) evidence reference to a number of organizations whose definition of the
word
) "cult" you claim would prove that unfitting to describe Anthroposophy.
)
) Having 10 minutes to spare, I typed the words "Anthroposophy" and "cult"
) into Google, and came up with pages and pages of Websites, including the
) following:
)
) http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/pseudo/anthropos.html
)
) http://www.cults.co.nz/ae.html
)
) http://skepdic.com/comments/steinercom.html
)
) http://www.gkindia.com/therapies/anthroposophicalmedicine.htm
)
) http://www.geocities.com/mibby529/rogues.html
)
) http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/pseudo/
)
) http://psychicinvestigator.com/demo/Cults.htm
)
) http://cultpreres.users4.50megs.com/
)
) http://www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/books/evans/
)
) http://www.csj.org/pubs_co/guestcolumn/newrelmovaagaard.htm
)
) Lisa
)
Hello Lisa,
Thanks for the help with my research. I have just downloaded all of the above
and found some very interesting information. I will have some feedback for
you soon. I have a reply to your earlier comment as well, but I had to break it
off to go to work this morning and haven't had a chance to finish it yet.
I have some questions for you, though. Can you provide me with an example in
which, at any point in your connection with a Waldorf School or Community you
were ever asked to:
1. Join the Anthroposophical Society (other than if you had initiated the
inquiry to do so yourself)
2. Make a financial donation or contribution to the Anthroposophical Society
(directly - not money for school tuition or a solicitation for financial help
for a particular project.)
3. Make any kind of pledge of money, property, allegiance or other item of
value to the Anthroposophical Society or to the "Waldorf Movement" as a whole
(other than paying tuition for school or solicitation for financial help for a
particular project such as a building fund or aid to a school in need.)
4. Recruit family members, friends or strangers for membership in the
Anthroposophical Society worldwide or the Anthropsophical Society of North America
or were you ever:
5. Told directly or indirectly that membership of yourself or any other
member of your family in the Anthroposophical Society was a requirement of your
child's enrollment in a Waldorf School.
6. Told that membership in any other religious, ethnic, political,
philosophical or other social organization would be a condition that would prevent your
child from being enrolled in a Waldorf School.
I would appreciate direct and honest answers to each of these questions. Not
things like "Well, people looked at you funny if...." or "I was made to feel
uncomfortable about....". I would like actual examples of any of these events
taking place as I have outlined above.
I invite all other "Waldorf Critics" to answer these six questions directly
as well. I have read lots of your stories (definitely not all of them, I know.)
and I understand that many of you have "felt" "oppressive attitudes" (my
paraphrase) and that sort of thing. What I am looking for are direct and concrete
examples of the above.
Thank you in advance for your cooperation in this matter.
Christine Natale
March 9, 2004
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:12:50 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Re: the 9th year stuff
In a message dated 3/9/2004 3:58:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dan dandugan.com writes:
) Subj: Re: the 9th year stuff
) Date: 3/9/2004 3:58:38 AM Eastern Standard Time
) From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
) Reply-to: (A HREF="mailto:waldorf-critics topica.com")
waldorf-critics topica.com(/A)
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)
) madpark nildram.co.uk wrote:
)
) )Can someone please explain the 9th year stuff they talk about?
)
) [Childs, Gilbert. Steiner Education: in theory and practice.
) Edinburgh: Floris Books, 1991, pp. 92-93]
)
) "The undesirability of appealing directly to the intellect of the
) child before puberty has already been discussed from the
) spiritual-scientific point of view, but the rationale behind the
) reluctance to teach the children to read before the age of eight or
) nine was not specifically dealt with. It may be recalled that, at
) about the age of nine the child develops or acquires a heightened
) sense of selfhood; it feels more of an individuality. It feels less
) sympathetic-in the technical sense-towards its surroundings, it feels
) less at one with them. Conversely, it feels more antipathetic to its
) environment, and this it is which helps to induce the enhanced
) self-consciousness; the child is capable of greater powers of
) objectification and therefore a sharpened capacity for the
) intellectual process of apprehending concepts. It would follow,
) therefore, that it is most appropriate for the child to learn to read
) at the age of eight or nine, and Steiner frequently reiterated this."
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
Teaching for the Two Sided Mind
A Guide to Right Brain/ Left Brain Education
By Linda Verlee Williams
1983 Simon & Schuster, NY
Chapter 7
Multisensory Learning
Sensory Learning in the Early Primary Grades
A child's brain is not just smaller or less experienced than an adult's; it
is different in a number of ways. The brain develops all through childhood.
Auditory perception and discrimination, tactile differentiation, and the ability
to transfer information across sense modalities and to interpret that
information are not complete until a child is at least eight years old. Development of
visual perception continues into adolescence. (1) Therefore, in considering
the role of the senses in learning, we must be concerned not only with how they
can help children learn skills and information, but also with how development
affects a child's ability to perform specific tasks and with the impact of
classroom activities on sensory development and integration.
Just as the brain develops in an orderly manner, thinking progresses in a
predictable sequence with verbal ability appearing relatively late in the
process. A task must be appropriate to a child's level of development if the child is
to succeed at it and grow from the experience. When we force children to
learn to read and to work with verbal materials before they are developmentally
ready, we are like a builder who, eager to see results, fails to put in the
foundation before beginning to work on the house.
(1.) Raymond S. More, Dorothy N. More, et al. School Can Wait (Provo, Utah:
Brigham Young University Press, 1979) p. 153
Posted by Christine
March 9, 2004
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 23:18:58 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: the 9th year stuff
Tell us more about Linda Verlee Williams and why I should consider her an
authority on the brain and learning, Christine. A quick Internet search
tells me only that her book is out of print, albeit available, and that she
also wrote a book about papier mache.
Lisa
) From: Christine Natale (Golden3000997 cs.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:12:50 EST
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com, anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com
) Subject: Re: the 9th year stuff
)
) In a message dated 3/9/2004 3:58:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,
) dan dandugan.com writes:
)
)) Subj: Re: the 9th year stuff
)) Date: 3/9/2004 3:58:38 AM Eastern Standard Time
)) From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
)) Reply-to: (A HREF="mailto:waldorf-critics topica.com")
) waldorf-critics topica.com(/A)
)) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
))
)) madpark nildram.co.uk wrote:
))
))) Can someone please explain the 9th year stuff they talk about?
))
)) [Childs, Gilbert. Steiner Education: in theory and practice.
)) Edinburgh: Floris Books, 1991, pp. 92-93]
))
)) "The undesirability of appealing directly to the intellect of the
)) child before puberty has already been discussed from the
)) spiritual-scientific point of view, but the rationale behind the
)) reluctance to teach the children to read before the age of eight or
)) nine was not specifically dealt with. It may be recalled that, at
)) about the age of nine the child develops or acquires a heightened
)) sense of selfhood; it feels more of an individuality. It feels less
)) sympathetic-in the technical sense-towards its surroundings, it feels
)) less at one with them. Conversely, it feels more antipathetic to its
)) environment, and this it is which helps to induce the enhanced
)) self-consciousness; the child is capable of greater powers of
)) objectification and therefore a sharpened capacity for the
)) intellectual process of apprehending concepts. It would follow,
)) therefore, that it is most appropriate for the child to learn to read
)) at the age of eight or nine, and Steiner frequently reiterated this."
))
)) -Dan Dugan
))
)
)
) Teaching for the Two Sided Mind
) A Guide to Right Brain/ Left Brain Education
)
) By Linda Verlee Williams
) 1983 Simon & Schuster, NY
)
)
) Chapter 7
) Multisensory Learning
)
)
) Sensory Learning in the Early Primary Grades
)
) A child's brain is not just smaller or less experienced than an adult's; it
) is different in a number of ways. The brain develops all through childhood.
) Auditory perception and discrimination, tactile differentiation, and the
) ability
) to transfer information across sense modalities and to interpret that
) information are not complete until a child is at least eight years old.
) Development of
) visual perception continues into adolescence. (1) Therefore, in considering
) the role of the senses in learning, we must be concerned not only with how
) they
) can help children learn skills and information, but also with how development
) affects a child's ability to perform specific tasks and with the impact of
) classroom activities on sensory development and integration.
)
) Just as the brain develops in an orderly manner, thinking progresses in a
) predictable sequence with verbal ability appearing relatively late in the
) process. A task must be appropriate to a child's level of development if the
) child is
) to succeed at it and grow from the experience. When we force children to
) learn to read and to work with verbal materials before they are
) developmentally
) ready, we are like a builder who, eager to see results, fails to put in the
) foundation before beginning to work on the house.
)
) (1.) Raymond S. More, Dorothy N. More, et al. School Can Wait (Provo, Utah:
) Brigham Young University Press, 1979) p. 153
)
) Posted by Christine
) March 9, 2004
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:15:30 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
Christine, thank you for your moving testimony of faith. If anyone
here doubted that Anthroposophy was a religion, your essay should
erase that doubt. I have a few questions on the details.
)It is pronounced "mi-cha-el" just like you would say "ga-bri-el" and
)"ra-pha-el". The "el" at the end of each name means "God". Michael
)means "countenance of God".
Pronounced by whom? Why, in Waldorf schools, is the common English
name "Michael" pronounced "mi-cha-el"? Why is it necessary to make a
distinction? Is it because that's the way it's pronounced in German?
Why would that matter?
)The Archangel Michael, as we take him to be, is "The Founder of
)Anthroposophy" because he is the supreme champion of the development
)of Human Freedom and the "I" or Individuality of each Human Being.
)He slays the dragon of the falsehood of materialism and protects the
)Eternal Feminine who gives birth to the New Human Being.
When and where do we see this "New Human Being"?
)Rudolf Steiner spoke of a "Michael School" which took place in the
)1800s in which many, many individualities who were about to come
)into physical incarnation were "enrolled". This "school" brought
)souls together who had been pursuing many different paths to the
)Spiritual World and taught them (literally) how the piece of the
)cosmic puzzle through the long ages of time fit together and how
)crucial it is for each Human Being to find his or her own direct way
)to the Spiritual World and to the Christ Being from with in their
)physical life. This was not an "indoctrination" - it was a bringing
)together of people who had sought truth and love throughout the ages
)and united them in knowledge and purpose.
)
)Rudolf Steiner was a great teacher of this "Michael School" - not a
)guru, not a "cult leader", not a person interested in interfering
)with or directing other people's free will. But a true teacher - one
)who made himself available to the Spiritual World and to the Human
)Beings now living in the material world. Not as a "channel" or
)"sleeping prophet" but one who worked to be able to perceive
)Spiritual reality as concretely and objectively as any person can
)perceive the physical world. And he worked to make not only the
)knowledge about this objective reality available to people, but a
)safe, moral and fully concious path to knowledge of this spiritual
)reality so that they would be able to develop the "tools" of
)spiritual perception in a healthy and verifiable way.
The above is a statement of doctrine. It's based solely on revelation
from divine sources.
)All of the work of Rudolf Steiner is directly inspired by the
)Archangel Michael as the "countenance" or "representative" of the
)Christ Being - the Archetype of all Humankind - ALL. Not one word is
)meant to be or expected to be or really, allowed to be taken on
)"faith" or because "he said so." Every word is given in Freedom and
)can ONLY be taken in Freedom or rejected in Freedom.
But if it's "directly inspired" by a supernatural source, who could
doubt it? That's the problem with criticizing Steiner. If he got his
teachings from the spiritual world, only another "researcher" in the
spiritual world would be able to argue whether he got things right or
not. But there are very few who claim to be able to study the
spiritual world as Steiner did. So that leaves Anthroposophists with
only one thing: faith. All the talk about "freedom" may make you feel
good, but it's meaningless in practice. It's a trick Steiner played
on you, a guru trick.
)By the same token, every word and every spiritual impulse behind
)those words is given to Humanity as a Whole - not one person
)excluded, not one person judged for "worthiness" or even for
)capacity to understand. Just as the Sun shines on every person who
)steps out of his or her house, so does the Light of Truth shine for
)all who choose to open their "eyes" - their hearts and minds.
Religions do claim to have "the Light of Truth."
)How each person chooses to do this; why each person chooses to do
)this; what results in each person who chooses to do this is entirely
)their own business. No one judges or has a right to judge.
Sounds good, but in practice, in Anthroposophical institutions
there's a whole lotta judgin' goin' on. Those who can quote Steiner
to justify their positions win.
)Even when ideas or interpretations of ideas get misinterpreted or
)distorted - unintentionally or intentionally - often others do not
)interfere, exactly because of the great respect every person who is
)a student of Rudolf Steiner has for the "I" of the other person and
)the responsibility that each one carries for what lives inside his
)or her true individuality. This can create problems, due to the
)fallability of people, but it stands in opposition to the "dogmatic"
)view of "religious truth" that has carried humanity through up to
)now. We stand at the Threshold of an age in which we cannot and will
)not be led "blindly" by churches, governments or any other social
)institution. Mankind faces the challenge of having to "stand on our
)own two feet." We see in our time mostly tragedy occuring when
)people try to go back to various forms of "group conciousness" in
)their spiritual strivings. There can be a community of the heart
)involved in Anthroposophy, but never one which expects the
)Individual to "surrender" his or her own knowledge, discernment and
)freedom of thought, word or deed.
Nonsense. Anthroposophical communities expect total surrender to
Steiner's revelations. They can't survive otherwise.
)What is it that the Archangel Michael is "trying to achieve" through
)Rudolf Steiner and all who choose freely to take up a work such as
)Waldorf Education? It is always and absolutely that each and every
)individual shall find an environment, a community and a vocation
)that allows as much as possible (given the limits of space, time and
)the wider social fabric of our time) that person to fulfill the
)intentions that he or she came into this earth existence with. That
)each human being, to the best of whatever the circumstances will
)allow have a childhood which allows him or her to develop in as
)healthy a way as possible; that allows for a gradual sequence of
)unfolding of abilities, talents and interests; that strives to work
)for harmonizing potentially harmful tendencies; that seeks the kind
)of balance of Form and Freedom that gives the growing human being
)both encouragement to grow and healthy boundaries; that works to
)nurture in each developing human being a profound respect for life,
)for the earth, for every form of life on the earth, for each other
)and for him and her self;
High ideals that everybody would agree with. But does Waldorf
education actually "allow him or her to develop in as healthy a way
as possible"? How would you know that Steiner's indications from the
spiritual world actually lead to those results?
)that brings to each child the as many of the infinite names and
)faces and manifestations of God as possible, so that he or she may
)discover the "door" in his or her own heart that opens easily to God
)in whatever form or manifestation that person desires and requires.
Indeed, as Eugene Schwartz said, he wants his daughter in Waldorf
because it is a religious education. Wouldn't it be more honest to
stop covering that up?
)Perhaps you and others have encountered "Anthroposophists", "Waldorf
)Schools", "Waldorf Teachers" etc. who fail miserably to live up to
)the statements above.
I'd say that's inevitable, given the state of Waldorf teacher
selection and training. How will the movement reform itself?
Criticism is suppressed, there's no feedback loop, therefore no
correction of wrong directions, no growth.
) Have you ever known a "Christian" to fail to live up to the
)teachings of Christ? I know that I have failed, pretty much every
)day of my life and may continue to fail for several more lifetimes.
)Without the hope of and knowledge of and experience of Forgiveness,
)I know that I could never try again. I believe that there are others
)who would feel the same way. Have we failed you and your children in
)some way? I do not doubt it if you say so. Speaking for myself, I
)feel it deeply and I know it from every side. I have been on the
)receiving end of unkindness and lack of understanding as well - from
)my "fellow" Steiner people and Waldorf people.
)
)But I have also seen and heard and experienced those moments of love
)and understanding and true acceptance such as I have never seen or
)experienced anywhere else. I have had my moments, too when real,
)viable good was accomplished, even by me - moments I can attest to
)and carry with me with pride for my efforts and reverance for the
)guidance that I received in the process.
Waldorf teachers are the devotees of the cult. The enterprise only
goes on when you sacrifice yourselves to the cause. It makes you feel
noble, and special.
)Do we have a long way to go? Absolutely! We are still in the infancy
)of the work.
After 80 years I'd expect a little more confidence.
)There are still a many years and many "miles" to go. The Archangel
)Michael guides us and helps us when we ask for help, but he does not
)do the work for us. He does not expect us to "surrender" our wills.
)He expects us (all human beings) to strengthen our Will and through
)our Free Will to work for the Power of Love and Truth that lives
)within each and every one of us.
Why do you capitalize Will here? What does that mean?
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:19:55 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Cult - NOT
DAN DUGAN
) ) Cult-like characteristics of Anthroposophy include:
CHRISTINE NATALE
)Where do you get the definitions that you have listed?
From my experience. Those are my personal justifications for my
opinion that Anthroposophy is cult-like. It was a cult while Steiner
was alive. Now it's evolving, very slowly because it's very
conservative, into a religion, but it still clings to most of its
cult characteristics. The history of Mormonism makes a useful
parallel.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:57:18 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: the 9th year stuff
Christine Natale, you quoted this in response to a question about
"the nine year change."
)Teaching for the Two Sided Mind
)A Guide to Right Brain/ Left Brain Education
)
)By Linda Verl