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-- Topica Digest --
Re: honesty
By bangus nb.sympatico.ca
stolen
By spectmore yahoo.com
Re: honesty
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: www.WaldorfCritics.com Feedback
By dan dandugan.com
RE: really stolen
By spectmore yahoo.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:49:19 -0400
From: "Bruce Angus" (bangus nb.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: honesty
Hi Peter - A thought or two regarding your Waldorf questions and I'll start with a comment I wrote in my last post: "instead of altering their approach and evolving their belief system." After review, I'd say that sentence should really read "evolving their understanding." One issue for me has to do with the difference between adhering to an external belief system versus the individual activity of evolving one's personal consciousness and understanding.
Another point to clarify: there is a difference between anthroposophical Waldorf (most schools at the moment) versus Waldorf-inspired (many new schools).
Anthroposophy is considered the appropriate form of spiritual development at this particular time in human evolution. This is why anthroposophical schools teach, say, Eurythmy but not Yoga. Eurythmy is the new and future art form, whereas Yoga, another form of meditative body movement, is supposedly no longer appropriate for modern human beings. Most anthroposophical teachers will of course tell you that adults are free to practice Yoga. But they do carry these extremely hardened evolutionary development perspectives - and that's with regards to all things in both the terrestrial and celestial worlds - into their work and interactions with the students.
Is any or all of this bad, or good, or what? My opinion: as long as parents are clearly and properly informed - anthroposophical Waldorf education is based on Anthroposophy, Steiner the clairvoyant's spiritual-scientific, Christ-centered cosmology - then everybody enjoy. But that's not happening, so I in my opinion all of this is very bad.
And it's bad because it makes it look as if the general Waldorf movement (which is anthroposophical) is operating in a dishonest manner, has hidden intentions, and arranges the truth to suit the need. Schools advertise Steiner as a philosopher and scientist, yet anthroposophists will go out of their way in private to convince you of Steiner's status as an Initiate and clairvoyant master. If his exalted spiritual status and psychic insights are fundamental to Anthroposophy and therefore anthroposophical Waldorf education, why isn't all this openly and happily communicated to prospective parents?
Why am I going on like this concerning the question: "What does anthroposophical Waldorf education try to accomplish?" I hope I can connect all this up! Anthroposophical schools are attempting - by way of educating the child - to structure the manner in which human beings will think, feel and act in (Steiner's vision of) the future. The education and guidance these children are being given is meant to prepare them for the future world - a world vision born out of the imaginations of Rudolf Steiner and maintained by the anthroposophical Waldorf movement's discipleship and spiritual missionary work. (That's what it is; sorry if I offend.)
At the very heart of anthroposophical Waldorf philosophy is the Lucifer/Christ/Ahriman dynamic. This is really what children as future beings are being prepared for - to battle Beelze and Bub in the name of the Christ. Steiner made this very clear, over and over again. It's his 'mother of all wars', and the approaching incarnation of Ahriman will make all the fighting that's taking place in our world these days seem like mere disagreements in comparison. Again, if soon-to-be community members are acquainted with these fundamental anthroposophical Waldorf beliefs and intentions, then fine. But they never are.
And I know what the anthroposophical teacher's response would be to this (apart from my Beelzebub remark): "Waldorf education merely seeks to create free-thinking human beings."
My response: "Do you leave your set-in-stone spiritual/religious-specific beliefs, along with your missionary-like objectives, at the door when you walk into the classroom? Free thinking means 'free to form whatever beliefs one chooses'. Do you educate the child with the intention of evolving their understanding of the world in a myriad of philosophical directions?
"Wouldn't, say, not believing in Ahriman and Lucifer and a Christ-centered universe be considered a free belief? Wouldn't educating the child towards free beliefs like that one, be real, true and actual education that is merely seeking to create free-thinking human beings?
"And how can you not educate the child in that very specific direction, when the curriculum and all the festivals celebrate our Christ-centered universe along with Michael's fight with the bad guys of the cosmos? Don't get me wrong. It's fine if you believe that stuff and sure, you have to have some sort of educational philosophy to share with children. Just inform the parents, and BEFORE they sign the tuition agreement."
That's more than a thought or two I suppose. Take care.
Bruce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:29:08 -0800
From: spectmore yahoo.com
Subject: stolen
something about you!
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:27:23 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: honesty
Nicole: Thanks, Bruce, for helping to shed some light into dark corners. It's great to have you here.
Bruce wrote:
Hi Peter - A thought or two regarding your Waldorf questions and I'll start with a comment I wrote in my last post: "instead of altering their approach and evolving their belief system." After review, I'd say that sentence should really read "evolving their understanding." One issue for me has to do with the difference between adhering to an external belief system versus the individual activity of evolving one's personal consciousness and understanding.
Another point to clarify: there is a difference between anthroposophical Waldorf (most schools at the moment) versus Waldorf-inspired (many new schools).
Anthroposophy is considered the appropriate form of spiritual development at this particular time in human evolution. This is why anthroposophical schools teach, say, Eurythmy but not Yoga. Eurythmy is the new and future art form, whereas Yoga, another form of meditative body movement, is supposedly no longer appropriate for modern human beings. Most anthroposophical teachers will of course tell you that adults are free to practice Yoga. But they do carry these extremely hardened evolutionary development perspectives - and that's with regards to all things in both the terrestrial and celestial worlds - into their work and interactions with the students.
Is any or all of this bad, or good, or what? My opinion: as long as parents are clearly and properly informed - anthroposophical Waldorf education is based on Anthroposophy, Steiner the clairvoyant's spiritual-scientific, Christ-centered cosmology - then everybody enjoy. But that's not happening, so I in my opinion all of this is very bad.
And it's bad because it makes it look as if the general Waldorf movement (which is anthroposophical) is operating in a dishonest manner, has hidden intentions, and arranges the truth to suit the need. Schools advertise Steiner as a philosopher and scientist, yet anthroposophists will go out of their way in private to convince you of Steiner's status as an Initiate and clairvoyant master. If his exalted spiritual status and psychic insights are fundamental to Anthroposophy and therefore anthroposophical Waldorf education, why isn't all this openly and happily communicated to prospective parents?
Why am I going on like this concerning the question: "What does anthroposophical Waldorf education try to accomplish?" I hope I can connect all this up! Anthroposophical schools are attempting - by way of educating the child - to structure the manner in which human beings will think, feel and act in (Steiner's vision of) the future. The education and guidance these children are being given is meant to prepare them for the future world - a world vision born out of the imaginations of Rudolf Steiner and maintained by the anthroposophical Waldorf movement's discipleship and spiritual missionary work. (That's what it is; sorry if I offend.)
At the very heart of anthroposophical Waldorf philosophy is the Lucifer/Christ/Ahriman dynamic. This is really what children as future beings are being prepared for - to battle Beelze and Bub in the name of the Christ. Steiner made this very clear, over and over again. It's his 'mother of all wars', and the approaching incarnation of Ahriman will make all the fighting that's taking place in our world these days seem like mere disagreements in comparison. Again, if soon-to-be community members are acquainted with these fundamental anthroposophical Waldorf beliefs and intentions, then fine. But they never are.
And I know what the anthroposophical teacher's response would be to this (apart from my Beelzebub remark): "Waldorf education merely seeks to create free-thinking human beings."
My response: "Do you leave your set-in-stone spiritual/religious-specific beliefs, along with your missionary-like objectives, at the door when you walk into the classroom? Free thinking means 'free to form whatever beliefs one chooses'. Do you educate the child with the intention of evolving their understanding of the world in a myriad of philosophical directions?
"Wouldn't, say, not believing in Ahriman and Lucifer and a Christ-centered universe be considered a free belief? Wouldn't educating the child towards free beliefs like that one, be real, true and actual education that is merely seeking to create free-thinking human beings?
"And how can you not educate the child in that very specific direction, when the curriculum and all the festivals celebrate our Christ-centered universe along with Michael's fight with the bad guys of the cosmos? Don't get me wrong. It's fine if you believe that stuff and sure, you have to have some sort of educational philosophy to share with children. Just inform the parents, and BEFORE they sign the tuition agreement."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:23:25 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Cc: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: www.WaldorfCritics.com Feedback
Susan, you wrote:
)Hello. I am a parent of a third grader. I pulled mu child out of a non
)religious private school for similar reasons you have sited...always wanting
)more money, our lives completely emeshed with the school, no contact with
)friends outside school, my daughters personality changing from a happy kid
)who read by age 4 to an angry kid who by the spring of first grade
)completely refused to complete the computation sheets given from the saxon
)math program which was used at that school.
Sounds like you did the right thing.
)We now homeschool. I bought
)Saxon math and found it repetitive with a subtle brainwashing effect as
)similar to what you site with waldorf.
What philosophy did you think was being inculcated with Saxon Math?
)I am definetly not an occultist.
)However I am using materials from Live-education a Waldorf homeschool
)provider. My daughter responds very well. I find we are much more structured
)and organized than most homeschoolers we know and contribute this to the
)calming, organizing, rythym that waldorf encourages. Is there any part of
)Waldorf that you found appealing or was it all destructive?
There were lots of things I liked, that's why we enrolled our son
there. Unfortunately the system has serious problems that don't seem
to be curable.
)Also what form
)of education do you support?
I admire the common-sense approach of E.D. Hirsch's "Core Knowledge"
curriculum.
)Please respond. I have tried other forms of
)curriculums and really like Waldorf as I am interpreting it. She came to me
)completely turned off to math. I tried Saxon as well as a typical public
)school approach. It was not until I used Ron Jarman's book on how to teach
)math in Rudolf Stiener schools that it really came to life for her. And
)this is no easy stuff. They are doing more difficult work than the highly
)rated private school she was at. I will really appreciate your wisdom on
)this subject. SP
I don't know about wisdom, but I can give you support for caring so
much about your daughter's development, and sacrificing so much to
insure her a good education.
-Dan Dugan
Secretary, PLANS, Inc.
copy to waldorf-critics discussion list
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:10:18 +0000
From: (spectmore yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: really stolen
Ummm....I did not send this.
*someone* must have a virus. Apologies.
spectmore yahoo.com wrote:
)
) something about you!
)
) --
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1306
-- Topica Digest --
Re: honesty
By bangus nb.sympatico.ca
Re: honesty
By feetapparel hotmail.com
quotes on discipline?
By stella_blue88 hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 10:00:05 -0400
From: "Bruce Angus" (bangus nb.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: honesty
Hi Nicole - Thanks.
While writing that last post to Peter, it occurred to me how very simple most of these issues are, given they really come down to common sense. I recently picked up a flyer for an alternative school in the area.
It mentions addressing the academic, spiritual, emotional and physical learning needs of the whole child.
Now, as a common sense person, I understand what those four terms are meant to convey. And as a common sense society we absolutely can and should expect that schools (and schools in particular) would be completely upfront with people if those common sense terms represented something quite different than that which we and our common sense society understand (expect) them to mean.
Truthfully and morally, an anthroposophical Waldorf flyer would have to mention how the spiritual in the child is educated and guided by means of explicit and precise physical and academic activities, as outlined by Rudolf Steiner's clairvoyant investigations regarding child development. Furthermore, these activities are specifically designed to shape the manner in which children see themselves and the world - as human spirit beings interacting with a world and universe filled with cosmic spirit beings. Further to that - and notice how long this flyer explanation is becoming compared to the other school's - at the center and heart of that particular world and universe which the students are guided and directed to comprehend stands the most splendid of those cosmic beings: Christ.
That last sentence is tricky because schools don't tell children that. But the curriculum, festivals and - in my mind maybe even more powerful - the teachers' intentions, absolutely send the children off traveling through the woods with baskets filled with this very particular assortment of spiritual-religious goodies. That's why I personally believe anthropsophical schools owe it to prospective parents to go that extra mile with the honesty and upfrontness.
I know when I'm happy and proud of who I am and what I believe, I share all of it with people, including the obscurest of personal details, to the point where I'm told to maybe shut up for a bit now, please. I have to point out that the general intention in the anthropsophical schools I worked in was to hide the Christ stuff. In the first two schools I worked in I was specifically told not to talk to parents about it. That indicates a lack of joy and satisfaction, according to my system of life analysis. And we tend to feel pretty miserable in life at those times when we're not being particularly honest with ourselves and others.
Bruce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 05:53:13 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: honesty
G'day Bruce,
I am enjoying your posts very much and they have me thinking about a few
issues. Here are a couple.
You said something like you can tell a good teacher by the fact that the
children love him or her. If my paraphrase has distorted your meaning please
forgive me and attempt to fix it. I think this notion is essentially
correct. However I also think that we love people despite their failings
particularly when their intentions are good.
Your point about the schools being open in their goals and aims seems to fly
in the face of Steiner's advice to keep those aims secret. Perhaps those
schools which kept that stuff hidden were "better" Anthroposophical schools
than those which were more open and where you felt more comfortable.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
Protect your inbox from harmful viruses with new ninemsn Premium. Go to
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 06:30:04 +0000
From: Aurora Weir (stella_blue88 hotmail.com)
Subject: quotes on discipline?
Hello all,
While I usually only lurk on this list, I often read with interest and
have been reading many, many archived posts. What a wealth of
information! In my scouring of the archives, however, I have been
unable to find specific quotes from Steiner regarding the use of
shame/humiliation as means to motivate or punish the student. I have
seen plenty of references to this tactic , but not actual quotes...It
would be helpful to me to read something directly if anyone has ready
access to that or pointers to find it.
Thanks so much,
Aurora
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1307
-- Topica Digest --
Re: honesty
By bangus nb.sympatico.ca
Re: quotes on discipline?
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
FW: Question for Editors: General Questions or Comments for our
Editors from ga
By Gary goodwinter.com
Discipline
By leshoffman earthlink.net
PLANS web site traffic report
By dan dandugan.com
RE: honesty
By spectmore yahoo.com
Change of copyright at News Network Anthroposophy - the
anthroposophical news a
By dan dandugan.com
Re: quotes on discipline?
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 11:17:07 -0400
From: "Bruce Angus" (bangus nb.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: honesty
Peter wrote: "You said something like you can tell a good teacher by the fact that the children love him or her. However I also think that we love people despite their failings particularly when their intentions are good."
Hi Peter - I guess I feel that learning to accept people despite their failings is a good thing and an education in its own right, even in, say, a school setting where students are "supposed" to be learning other things. I say "supposed" because one part of me feels that education is simply about learning what it is to be a human being. Teaching compassion and empathy are big on my curriculum list.
On the other hand, a teacher group blindly supporting one another at a time when parents are angry and upset and the class is in organizational turmoil, is wrong. And in such situations, children can still "love" their teacher out of misplaced sympathy. The teacher, as a result of insecurity or lack of understanding and ability, forms a sort of dysfunctional emotional bond with the kids who, if you asked them, might tell you so-and-so's a good person.
The scenario I just described happens, and I'd even suggest it happens quite a bit. I'd also say schools are responding and starting to implement collegial evaluations on some level. In the larger anthroposophical schools, those evaluations, when and if they happen (not a lot of pressure on the larger institutions to change anything) focus on a teacher's "Steiner-appropriateness": their work in relation to adhering to the Waldorf curriculum and Steiner's indications.
This whole subject ties in with discussions on religion, cult and codependent behavior. I wrote a week or two ago that Steiner can be thought of more as a pope than a guru. Anthroposophical Waldorf people go about their daily business, much the same way Catholics and Christians live their lives: with a set list of spiritual guidelines by which to live - the do's and don'ts of life. And a group of anthroposophical Waldorf people can form themselves and their school into a pretty reasonable imitation of a diocese. In a setting like that, my "children love their teacher" remark needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
Peter wrote: "Your point about the schools being open in their goals and aims seems to fly in the face of Steiner's advice to keep those aims secret."
Peter, you've obviously read more about this than I have. I've read maybe two quotes where Steiner stated that keeping people in the dark can be good and even necessary. The rest I gathered from experience, much of which involves my personal study into "mystery knowledge" if you will.
Steiner was a mystery knowledge fan, and supposedly with that particular territory comes all sorts of secrecy. Anthroposophical Waldorf schools strive to be Steiner mystery knowledge centres. Again, as long as the parents are told in the initial interview: "You DO realize you are enrolling your child in a modern Christian initiation centre, don't you?" then I suppose it's okay. I have my own personal opinions regarding the concept of mystery knowledge, and how unhealthy chasing after concepts can be, but they're just my views.
Peter wrote: "Perhaps those schools which kept that stuff hidden were "better" Anthroposophical schools than those which were more open and where you felt more comfortable."
I'd say yes to your first comment, although I'd probably attempt to redefine the word "hidden". In my mind, it's not necessarily "keep things hidden", but rather "no need to explain something others can't and won't understand".
Regarding anthropososophical Waldorf "they won't understand" conceptualizing versus the type of consciousness I felt comfortable around: I was in an Electronic Boutique store a couple of days ago. An eleven or twelve year old boy was standing in front of the Xbox games trying to decide which one to purchase. He was quite animated and loudly speaking to himself, and completely unaware he was making the type of commotion that would have drawn loud guffaws from his classmates if all this had been happening at school. Finally, he shook one of the games: "Yeah, yeah, that's it." And he scooted up to the cashier.
I was overwhelmed with feelings of happy compassion. Isn't life amazing? The excitement of owning a video game can turn a usually hyper-self-conscious adolescent into a liberated child again. I reflected how, as a teacher, I could and would use all that in the classroom, maybe even open a dialogue concerning what the students did in their spare time. I would take this "human expression of pure joy" and work with that dynamic as one part of the students' educational experience.
It's profoundly sad to consider that an anthropososophical Waldorf teacher could and just might become deeply concerned if he or she came across a student in a video store, late one evening. (And completely miss all the human element stuff.) And I know from experience that the video game, if it arrived at school because the boy wanted to show his friends, could and just might end up in the teacher's desk for the week, if discovered.
Really, how could even a large anthroposophical Waldorf institution openly discuss with parents the evil reality of Ahriman? Ahriman is one of those "they won't understand" concepts. So it gets hidden. Parents observe that anthroposophical teachers in the school act a bit odd whenever anything electronic is mentioned. Parents hear "TV bad" and most of them undoubtedly feel it simply has to do with children lazily sitting around, eyestrain, and the TV programming itself.
But the electronic and material realm of Ahriman is indescribably bad from an anthropososophical Waldorf perspective. Ahriman opposes and seeks to hinder the very evolution of the good (Christ-united) spirit beings, and of the cosmos itself. This is why taking video games away from students, or plastic toys, or forcing children to turn their shirts inside out, are considered acceptable educational practices. In their minds, anthropososophical teachers are simply aiding in the battle to ensure that evolution unfolds in such a way that the forces of light are victorious. Now try telling all that to the parents of the boy who just wants his game back.
Liberated child note: I saw that same light those anthropososophical teachers are so intent on recognizing and supporting. It was in the eyes of that boy when he finally shook that one game: "Yeah!"
Take care - Bruce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:30:04 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: quotes on discipline?
Hi Aurora,
Interesting question. My kids still talk of shame/humiliation being used as
a "tool" at their old Waldorf school. I have not, however, seen anything
about it from Steiner. I don't think he would ever have written or spoken
of such disturbing tactics. He did speak about teachers and their karma. I
think it has more to do with power tripping teachers than anything He might
have mentioned regarding shame/humiliation. Some teachers are open and
honest, caring people. And good teachers. Waldorf schools always seem to be
scrambling for teachers - the pickings are often pretty darn thin.
But...give a needy, well intentioned adult a job, tell her/him this is
her/his destiny, reinforce the "authority figure," and add a few Steiner
quotes with "darn those heathen parents" at faculty meetings and you start
to see a few of the ingredients. Often the result is a recipe for
disaster - but "karma" makes it all feel better.
Except for the children and their parents.
-Walden
)Hello all,
)While I usually only lurk on this list, I often read with interest and
)have been reading many, many archived posts. What a wealth of
)information! In my scouring of the archives, however, I have been
)unable to find specific quotes from Steiner regarding the use of
)shame/humiliation as means to motivate or punish the student. I have
)seen plenty of references to this tactic , but not actual quotes...It
)would be helpful to me to read something directly if anyone has ready
)access to that or pointers to find it.
)Thanks so much,
Aurora
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 22:21:59 -0500
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: FW: Question for Editors: General Questions or Comments for our
Editors from gary
I thought for sure Dr. Weil would know about biodynamic farming...
But alas, no...
...Gary
----------
) From: "editors" (editors drweil.com)
) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 12:53:19 -0700
) To: (webmaster waldorfcritics.org)
) Subject: RE: Question for Editors: General Questions or Comments for our
) Editors from gary
)
) Hello,
)
) Thank you for writing to us at Drweil.com. I was unable to locate any
) information regarding your topic on Rudolf Steiner\'s Biodynamic
) Farming. Please let me know if I can assist you in the future.
)
) Thank you
) Drweil.com team
) Elizabeth
) www.Drweil.com
)
)
) -----Original Message-----
) From: webmaster waldorfcritics.org [mailto:webmaster waldorfcritics.org]
)
) Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 7:43 AM
) To: editors
) Subject: Question for Editors: General Questions or Comments for our
) Editors from gary
)
) How does Dr. Weil feel about Rudolf Steiner\'s Biodynamic Farming
) methods as compared to traditional organic farming?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:01:49 -0800
From: Leslie Hoffman (leshoffman earthlink.net)
Subject: Discipline
I concur with Walden's assessment of why discipline is handled so
poorly at Waldorf schools. They have many loving and wonderful teachers,
but they also have a difficult time finding good teachers and
unfortunately, many abuse their power. I might add, that I believe the
lack of pedagogical oversight and the absence of a clear and consistent
discipline policy also creates the frightful situations that occur.
Additionally, the discipline problems go both ways -- in some cases the
teachers have no class room management training and very little
experience in maintaining order. In those cases, the children run the
show and ultimately loose out from the wonderful experiences of learning.
Leslie
walden wrote:
)===========================================================
)Sign up to get FREE information from leading colleges!
)Compare degrees, admissions, financial aid and more.
)Study your career education options at
)Collegeinformation.info.
)http://click.topica.com/caab6aib1dkiGb2UN3Za/ College Info
)===========================================================
)
)
)Hi Aurora,
)
)Interesting question. My kids still talk of shame/humiliation being used as
)a "tool" at their old Waldorf school. I have not, however, seen anything
)about it from Steiner. I don't think he would ever have written or spoken
)of such disturbing tactics. He did speak about teachers and their karma. I
)think it has more to do with power tripping teachers than anything He might
)have mentioned regarding shame/humiliation. Some teachers are open and
)honest, caring people. And good teachers. Waldorf schools always seem to be
)scrambling for teachers - the pickings are often pretty darn thin.
)But...give a needy, well intentioned adult a job, tell her/him this is
)her/his destiny, reinforce the "authority figure," and add a few Steiner
)quotes with "darn those heathen parents" at faculty meetings and you start
)to see a few of the ingredients. Often the result is a recipe for
)disaster - but "karma" makes it all feel better.
)
)Except for the children and their parents.
)
)-Walden
)
)
)
)
)
))Hello all,
))While I usually only lurk on this list, I often read with interest and
))have been reading many, many archived posts. What a wealth of
))information! In my scouring of the archives, however, I have been
))unable to find specific quotes from Steiner regarding the use of
))shame/humiliation as means to motivate or punish the student. I have
))seen plenty of references to this tactic , but not actual quotes...It
))would be helpful to me to read something directly if anyone has ready
))access to that or pointers to find it.
))Thanks so much,
))
))
)Aurora
)
)
)===========================================================
)Let University of Phoenix make 2004 your year. Evening,
)weekend or FlexNet® classes over 130 locations. Look
)into our programs and get the degree that gets you going!
)http://click.topica.com/caab6aBb1dkiGb2UN3Zf/ UOP
)===========================================================
)
)
)
)==^================================================================
)You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 21:47:01 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: PLANS web site traffic report
In the month of March we had 22,394 sessions on our web site,
averaging 722 sessions per day.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 07:02:55 +0000
From: (spectmore yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: honesty
I very much enjoy Bruce being here as well but would very much like to
point out that children can love many people including their abusers.
That a child can love their teacher when they know little else because
they have been in Waldorf all of their school-time lives, outside of
their own parents, is a precarious device for measuring whether that
teacher is in fact effectual and good or harmful and debilitating.
Jeanne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 22:47:45 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Change of copyright at News Network Anthroposophy - the
anthroposophical news agency with global reach
This is weird. Who ever heard of a news agency that doesn't want its
releases printed?
-Dan Dugan
****
Copyright 2004 News Network Anthroposophy Limited (NNA). All rights reserved.
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NNA-I N F O R M A T I O N
Change of copyright at News Network Anthroposophy - the
anthroposophical news agency with global reach
London, 2 April 2004 (NNA) - News Network Anthroposophy (NNA), the
anthroposophical Internet news agency, has today changed the
copyright on its output.
Whereas previously its material was provided without consent being
required for its use, as of now anyone using NNA other than for
personal and non-commercial purposes must first contact the agency
for permission. This will take the form of a single agreement for
ongoing use rather than permission per item.
The measure is intended to allow the news agency to keep track of its
consumers and how the output is being used. Among other things, this
will enable it to continue improving its service through a more
detailed awareness of its subscribers' needs.
Global reach
The news agency has an extensive reach. A recent survey of its
subscribers revealed that its reports are redistributed to well over
26,000 readers worldwide. Subscribers using NNA stories for
republication range from the traditional print media to consumers
distributing the material over the Internet via email lists.
NNA also provides its news as a service for websites, such as the
German Internet presence of the medicines and cosmetics producer
Weleda. Its news will also appear on the homepage of the
"anthromedia" multilingual anthroposophical media resource centre,
due to go live later this year, and the agency is in talks with other
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END/cva
+ + + + +
Item reference number: N040402-01EN
Date: 2 April 2004
More NNA reports at: http://www.nna-news.org/content/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 00:14:54 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: quotes on discipline?
)While I usually only lurk on this list, I often read with interest and
)have been reading many, many archived posts. What a wealth of
)information! In my scouring of the archives, however, I have been
)unable to find specific quotes from Steiner regarding the use of
)shame/humiliation as means to motivate or punish the student. I have
)seen plenty of references to this tactic , but not actual quotes...It
)would be helpful to me to read something directly if anyone has ready
)access to that or pointers to find it.
)Thanks so much,
)Aurora
A lot of what goes on in Waldorf schools seems to be carried forward
in an oral tradition from mentor to teacher, and isn't documented
anywhere.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1308
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Discipline
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: quotes on discipline?
By snell gv.net
Re: Change of copyright at News Network Anthroposophy - the
anthroposophical ne
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: honesty
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: honesty
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 10:04:32 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Discipline
Leslie wrote: They have many loving and wonderful teachers, but they also have a difficult time finding good teachers and unfortunately, many abuse their power. I might add, that I believe the lack of pedagogical oversight and the absence of a clear and consistent discipline policy also creates the frightful situations that occur.
Nicole: This is so true. I would also add a school culture, in my experience, which rejects accountability, encourages control freakery and teaches implicitly that the end justifies the means. Combined with a parent body in many cases afraid to speak out for fear their children will be sent away from the school, an environment is created where abuse of power can flourish.
Leslie wrote: Additionally, the discipline problems go both ways -- in some cases the teachers have no class room management training and very little experience in maintaining order. In those cases, the children run the show and ultimately loose out from the wonderful experiences of learning.
Nicole: This is also true. Children who consistently misbehave in a conventional school can be sent to the office, where discipline infractions can be dealt with calmly and without impacting on the lesson for the rest of the class. In Waldorf schools, there is no back up and no support in disciplinary matters. There is nowhere else to send a child who is ruining a lesson for everyone. I've seen even very good teachers struggle with this, as the children know there's very little the teacher can do.
One visiting senior anthroposophist told our faculty meeting that very difficult children "are the ones that you want" for spiritual reasons (he didn't explain why). He was full of praise for one 14 year old boy who was one of the most obnoxious and out of control children I have ever met. This child took great delight in ruining any lesson he was in. Having even one child like that can be a recipe for bedlam in the classroom, and there was often more than one. No one I can think of was ever asked to leave for persistent appalling behaviour.
One family was told to leave, never set foot on the property again and never to contact other parents at the school about the matter (I have seen the letter they sent her), because the mother had been concerned that her kindergarten son was being forced to pray and was frightened to go into the classroom. She volunteered to help in the class, but was not allowed in, so she used to sit in the lobby. When she withdrew her son from the school, her older daughter was also told not to return. The daughter's teacher, who was not on the college of teachers, was not even informed of the decision and had to find out from the mother. They were both very upset. The mother had run the craft group and had given countless hours to the school in the run up to the Christmas fair, but she was labeled a troublemaker. To me this suggests an exceptionally dysfunctional school culture - one seemingly obsessed with disciplining concerned parents rather than dealing appropriately with the behaviour of the staff or the children.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 12:22:50 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: quotes on discipline?
John Holland (http://www.openwaldorf.com) sent this to me:
"Similarly, you will find it helpful to insert into a story everything
that has been said about the three "Cinderellas," everything you can
hear and discover about these children, and then you can tell this story
to the whole class. The effect of this will be that the three
"Cinderellas" will be somewhat comforted and the others somewhat
ashamed. If you do this you will certainly find that, even at the first
attempt, and even more after the second, you will succeed in restoring a
friendly, social atmosphere, a mutual sympathy among the children. You
should continue with a similar story throughout the term.
Tomorrow we will take another case that also happens sometimes, which
certainly cannot be treated by telling a story that comforts some of the
children and shames the others."
Discussions With Teachers 1997 edition, p. 56
) Hello all,
) While I usually only lurk on this list, I often read with interest and
) have been reading many, many archived posts. What a wealth of
) information! In my scouring of the archives, however, I have been
) unable to find specific quotes from Steiner regarding the use of
) shame/humiliation as means to motivate or punish the student. I have
) seen plenty of references to this tactic , but not actual quotes...It
) would be helpful to me to read something directly if anyone has ready
) access to that or pointers to find it.
) Thanks so much,
) Aurora
)
)
) ===========================================================
) **** Bounces like rubber! Shatters like ceramic! ****
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) ===========================================================
)
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
) basic. New threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 23:20:40 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Change of copyright at News Network Anthroposophy - the
anthroposophical news a
Leave it to the anthros.
) From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 22:47:45 -0800
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Change of copyright at News Network Anthroposophy - the
) anthroposophical news a
)
) ===========================================================
) Your opinion counts! We?re conducting a survey for a
) computer service/repair company. When you complete our
) survey, you will also be entered into a drawing for one of
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) -Dan Dugan
)
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)
) Copyright 2004 News Network Anthroposophy Limited (NNA). All rights reserved.
) NNA content on this website or distributed by NNA by any other means
) may not be republished or redistributed without the prior consent of
) News Network Anthroposophy. Users may use and print extracts of NNA
) content without permission for their own personal and non-commercial
) use only.
) For republication or redistribution please contact NNA at:
) (mailto:admin nna-news.org)admin nna-news.org.
)
) + + + + +
)
) NNA-I N F O R M A T I O N
)
) Change of copyright at News Network Anthroposophy - the
) anthroposophical news agency with global reach
)
) London, 2 April 2004 (NNA) - News Network Anthroposophy (NNA), the
) anthroposophical Internet news agency, has today changed the
) copyright on its output.
)
) Whereas previously its material was provided without consent being
) required for its use, as of now anyone using NNA other than for
) personal and non-commercial purposes must first contact the agency
) for permission. This will take the form of a single agreement for
) ongoing use rather than permission per item.
)
) The measure is intended to allow the news agency to keep track of its
) consumers and how the output is being used. Among other things, this
) will enable it to continue improving its service through a more
) detailed awareness of its subscribers' needs.
)
) Global reach
)
) The news agency has an extensive reach. A recent survey of its
) subscribers revealed that its reports are redistributed to well over
) 26,000 readers worldwide. Subscribers using NNA stories for
) republication range from the traditional print media to consumers
) distributing the material over the Internet via email lists.
)
) NNA also provides its news as a service for websites, such as the
) German Internet presence of the medicines and cosmetics producer
) Weleda. Its news will also appear on the homepage of the
) "anthromedia" multilingual anthroposophical media resource centre,
) due to go live later this year, and the agency is in talks with other
) website operators.
)
) END/cva
)
) + + + + +
)
) Item reference number: N040402-01EN
) Date: 2 April 2004
)
) More NNA reports at: http://www.nna-news.org/content/
)
) ===========================================================
) Bounces like rubber! Shatters like ceramic! Discover Crazy
) Aaron's Thinking Putty in grown up handfuls. It's the
) creativity unleashing, mood enhancing desk toy!
) http://click.topica.com/caab593b1dkiGb1IpcOf/ Crazy Aaron Enterprises
) ===========================================================
)
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2004 01:07:18 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: honesty
Hello Jeanne,
Short but worthy of a double-read. I echo your sentiments.
-Walden
)I very much enjoy Bruce being here as well but would very much like to
)point out that children can love many people including their abusers.
)That a child can love their teacher when they know little else because
)they have been in Waldorf all of their school-time lives, outside of
)their own parents, is a precarious device for measuring whether that
)teacher is in fact effectual and good or harmful and debilitating.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2004 01:52:13 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: honesty
Jumping into a Peter F - Bruce chat...
Peter wrote: "Perhaps those schools which kept that stuff hidden were
"better" Anthroposophical schools than those which were more open and where
you felt more comfortable."
Bruce replied:
I'd say yes to your first comment, although I'd probably attempt to redefine
the word "hidden". In my mind, it's not necessarily "keep things hidden",
but rather "no need to explain something others can't and won't understand".
Walden adds: I am left wondering if you justify such an assumption, Bruce,
or are you simply saying this is what happens in the Waldorf teacher -
parent relationship based on your experience?
Bruce wrote:
"Regarding anthropososophical Waldorf "they won't understand"
conceptualizing versus the type of consciousness I felt comfortable around:
I was in an Electronic Boutique store a couple of days ago. An eleven or
twelve year old boy was standing in front of the Xbox games trying to decide
which one to purchase. He was quite animated and loudly speaking to himself,
and completely unaware he was making the type of commotion that would have
drawn loud guffaws from his classmates if all this had been happening at
school. Finally, he shook one of the games: "Yeah, yeah, that's it." And he
scooted up to the cashier.
I was overwhelmed with feelings of happy compassion. Isn't life amazing? The
excitement of owning a video game can turn a usually hyper-self-conscious
adolescent into a liberated child again. I reflected how, as a teacher, I
could and would use all that in the classroom, maybe even open a dialogue
concerning what the students did in their spare time. I would take this
"human expression of pure joy" and work with that dynamic as one part of the
students' educational experience.
It's profoundly sad to consider that an anthropososophical Waldorf teacher
could and just might become deeply concerned if he or she came across a
student in a video store, late one evening. (And completely miss all the
human element stuff.) And I know from experience that the video game, if it
arrived at school because the boy wanted to show his friends, could and just
might end up in the teacher's desk for the week, if discovered."
Walden adds: Good. I am glad to hear of this non-judgmental approach to
education. You paint a very familiar picture, Bruce. Years ago I came
close to buying the "teacher as authority figure no matter what" Waldorf
concept. When a teacher cannot or will not even try to empathize with a
child (in your example - with the video game), what "learning" can really
happen? When a teacher believes it is her/his karma to be the authority
figure, undo a parent's upbringing of their own child or otherwise interfere
with a child's natural growing curiosity... I ask again: what learning can
really happen? How about confusion, resentment and betrayal as the
"learning outcome." I've seen it first hand and it ain't pretty.
Bruce wrote:
"Really, how could even a large anthroposophical Waldorf institution openly
discuss with parents the evil reality of Ahriman? Ahriman is one of those
"they won't understand" concepts. So it gets hidden. Parents observe that
anthroposophical teachers in the school act a bit odd whenever anything
electronic is mentioned. Parents hear "TV bad" and most of them undoubtedly
feel it simply has to do with children lazily sitting around, eyestrain, and
the TV programming itself."
Walden: "A bit odd"... good one! The answer is to stop being a "bit odd"
and tell the truth - even if the truth might seem more odd than hiding it.
Most parents are happy to sit and chat about eyestrain and TV programming
and computer/video games, etc. *That* is one reason we sent our kids to
Waldorf. What we did not know was the relationship between Ahriman and
Lucifer according to Steiner and how that relationship formed the basis of
the impulse (for lack of a better term) of the "whys" behind Waldorf and
electronic stuff. That's where Todd Oppenheimer misses the boat, as well,
in his latest book, The Flickering Mind. I do not completely disagree with
Oppenheimer's argument about childhood and television/video games. I
completely disagree, however, with his black and white view of Waldorf vis a
vis TV, etc.
Oppenheimer has this weird, incestuous relationship with Waldorf where
neither of them really understands where the other is coming from. But they
are pleased as punch to use each other to promote their cause/movement. And
it pays. Meanwhile, well intentioned parents continue to read and believe
both parties... as they gladly send their children off to the "nonsectarian
school" only to scratch their heads at some point down the line and scream
to the heavens as they leave ... "Who the hell is Ahriman??!!"
It would be simple to explain all this to parents BEFORE they enroll their
children in a Waldorf school. Parents deserve as much and so do our
children.
-Walden
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1309
-- Topica Digest --
Re: honesty
By dan dandugan.com
Re: honesty
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: honesty
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: quotes on discipline?
By dan dandugan.com
Re: quotes on discipline?
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: quotes on discipline?
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 13:09:32 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: honesty
Bruce, Walden, can I post the excerpt below to the reviews section on
Amazon.com?
-Dan Dugan
On the waldorf-critics discussion list
(http://www.topica.com/lists/waldorf-critics), Bruce and Walden
discussed "The Flickering Mind":
)Bruce wrote:
)"Really, how could even a large anthroposophical Waldorf institution openly
)discuss with parents the evil reality of Ahriman? Ahriman is one of those
)"they won't understand" concepts. So it gets hidden. Parents observe that
)anthroposophical teachers in the school act a bit odd whenever anything
)electronic is mentioned. Parents hear "TV bad" and most of them undoubtedly
)feel it simply has to do with children lazily sitting around, eyestrain, and
)the TV programming itself."
)
)Walden: "A bit odd"... good one! The answer is to stop being a "bit odd"
)and tell the truth - even if the truth might seem more odd than hiding it.
)Most parents are happy to sit and chat about eyestrain and TV programming
)and computer/video games, etc. *That* is one reason we sent our kids to
)Waldorf. What we did not know was the relationship between Ahriman and
)Lucifer according to Steiner and how that relationship formed the basis of
)the impulse (for lack of a better term) of the "whys" behind Waldorf and
)electronic stuff. That's where Todd Oppenheimer misses the boat, as well,
)in his latest book, The Flickering Mind. I do not completely disagree with
)Oppenheimer's argument about childhood and television/video games. I
)completely disagree, however, with his black and white view of Waldorf vis a
)vis TV, etc.
)
)Oppenheimer has this weird, incestuous relationship with Waldorf where
)neither of them really understands where the other is coming from. But they
)are pleased as punch to use each other to promote their cause/movement. And
)it pays. Meanwhile, well intentioned parents continue to read and believe
)both parties... as they gladly send their children off to the "nonsectarian
)school" only to scratch their heads at some point down the line and scream
)to the heavens as they leave ... "Who the hell is Ahriman??!!"
)
)It would be simple to explain all this to parents BEFORE they enroll their
)children in a Waldorf school. Parents deserve as much and so do our
)children.
)
)-Walden
)
)===========================================================
)INSTANT CAR INSURANCE QUOTE! Save time, save money, and
)get the best deal. Get quote, buy, and print insurance
)cards online!
)http://click.topica.com/caab599b1dkiGb1IoWlf/ Insurance4usa.com
)===========================================================
)
)==^================================================================
)You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
)basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2004 13:38:41 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: honesty
Dan Dugan wrote:
)Bruce, Walden, can I post the excerpt below to the reviews section on
)Amazon.com?
Fine by me.
-Walden
On the waldorf-critics discussion list
(http://www.topica.com/lists/waldorf-critics), Bruce and Walden
discussed "The Flickering Mind":
)Bruce wrote:
)"Really, how could even a large anthroposophical Waldorf institution openly
)discuss with parents the evil reality of Ahriman? Ahriman is one of those
)"they won't understand" concepts. So it gets hidden. Parents observe that
)anthroposophical teachers in the school act a bit odd whenever anything
)electronic is mentioned. Parents hear "TV bad" and most of them undoubtedly
)feel it simply has to do with children lazily sitting around, eyestrain,
and
)the TV programming itself."
)
)Walden: "A bit odd"... good one! The answer is to stop being a "bit odd"
)and tell the truth - even if the truth might seem more odd than hiding it.
)Most parents are happy to sit and chat about eyestrain and TV programming
)and computer/video games, etc. *That* is one reason we sent our kids to
)Waldorf. What we did not know was the relationship between Ahriman and
)Lucifer according to Steiner and how that relationship formed the basis of
)the impulse (for lack of a better term) of the "whys" behind Waldorf and
)electronic stuff. That's where Todd Oppenheimer misses the boat, as well,
)in his latest book, The Flickering Mind. I do not completely disagree with
)Oppenheimer's argument about childhood and television/video games. I
)completely disagree, however, with his black and white view of Waldorf vis
a
)vis TV, etc.
)
)Oppenheimer has this weird, incestuous relationship with Waldorf where
)neither of them really understands where the other is coming from. But
they
)are pleased as punch to use each other to promote their cause/movement.
And
)it pays. Meanwhile, well intentioned parents continue to read and believe
)both parties... as they gladly send their children off to the "nonsectarian
)school" only to scratch their heads at some point down the line and scream
)to the heavens as they leave ... "Who the hell is Ahriman??!!"
)
)It would be simple to explain all this to parents BEFORE they enroll their
)children in a Waldorf school. Parents deserve as much and so do our
)children.
)
)-Walden
)
)===========================================================
)INSTANT CAR INSURANCE QUOTE! Save time, save money, and
)get the best deal. Get quote, buy, and print insurance
)cards online!
)http://click.topica.com/caab599b1dkiGb1IoWlf/ Insurance4usa.com
)===========================================================
)
)==^================================================================
)You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
)basic. New threads are always welcome.
===========================================================
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You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 00:51:39 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: honesty
Bruce wrote:
)I'd say yes to your first comment, although I'd probably attempt to
)redefine
)the word "hidden". In my mind, it's not necessarily "keep things hidden",
)but rather "no need to explain something others can't and won't
)understand".
)
Peter responds:
G'day Bruce,
I am interested here in your use of the words "can't" and "won't" in
connection with understand. I think the problem is that many can and will
understand, it's just that the understanding won't be the understanding
desired by Anthroposophists.
I am interested also in the comparison and contrast of how one deals with
teaching subjects which build on earlier learning. The examples I am
thinking of include mathematics and many topics in physics and engineering.
Others may prefer different examples. It is a little different teaching
young children but for adults and young adults (last years of high school
and tertiary education) teachers often refer forward to aspects of the
subject which are to be taught in the future with the message that what has
been taught so far is subject to some limitations. There is nothing stopping
a student from going to the library and obtaining an advanced maths text and
attempting to follow that up for themselves. As well students often see more
advanced students whose further studies have given them deeper insights and
increased abilities to solve more difficult problems and so on. None of this
is hidden. On the other hand I do not see any indication that those who
claim a greater depth of knowledge and understanding of Anthroposophy can
demonstrate anything other than verbosity beyond those that are new comers
to such a study. I often wonder if we do not see real Anthroposophists here
and at Anthroposphy Tomorrow, but only those with a weak understanding.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 17:13:28 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: quotes on discipline?
Aurora, you wrote,
)In my scouring of the archives, however, I have been
)unable to find specific quotes from Steiner regarding the use of
)shame/humiliation as means to motivate or punish the student. I have
)seen plenty of references to this tactic , but not actual quotes...It
)would be helpful to me to read something directly if anyone has ready
)access to that or pointers to find it.
)Thanks so much,
I've found this:
"If a child is ten minutes late, keep him standing for thirty
minutes. Make them stand uncomfortably! Your boy was rubbing his head
along the wall and playing with all kinds of things. If the
punishment is to fit the crime I think you can achieve good results
with things like this if you make them stand in an especially
uncomfortable place. These big ones will then see to it that they are
not late. You could buy a number of small stocks, then you won't have
them coming late six at a time. Perhaps they will have a little bit
of cramp in their legs. The stocks could also be made in Woodwork
lessons." [Steiner, Rudolf. Conferences with the Teachers of the
Waldorf School in Stuttgart 1919 to 1920: Volume One: The First and
Second Years of the Waldorf School, Stuttgart. (1920) Forest Row,
U.K.: Steiner Schools Fellowship Publications, 1986, p. 91]
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2004 23:42:29 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: quotes on discipline?
Well, if this is translated correctly from it's original German then I stand
corrected on my previous post. I sincerely hope no Waldorf teacher - no
matter how anthroposophically inspired - can justify Steiner's suggestions
in the passage below. I welcome comments on this quote - please. This is
abuse - pure and simple.
-Walden
Aurora, you wrote,
)In my scouring of the archives, however, I have been
)unable to find specific quotes from Steiner regarding the use of
)shame/humiliation as means to motivate or punish the student. I have
)seen plenty of references to this tactic , but not actual quotes...It
)would be helpful to me to read something directly if anyone has ready
)access to that or pointers to find it.
)Thanks so much,
Dan Dugan replied:
I've found this:
"If a child is ten minutes late, keep him standing for thirty
minutes. Make them stand uncomfortably! Your boy was rubbing his head
along the wall and playing with all kinds of things. If the
punishment is to fit the crime I think you can achieve good results
with things like this if you make them stand in an especially
uncomfortable place. These big ones will then see to it that they are
not late. You could buy a number of small stocks, then you won't have
them coming late six at a time. Perhaps they will have a little bit
of cramp in their legs. The stocks could also be made in Woodwork
lessons." [Steiner, Rudolf. Conferences with the Teachers of the
Waldorf School in Stuttgart 1919 to 1920: Volume One: The First and
Second Years of the Waldorf School, Stuttgart. (1920) Forest Row,
U.K.: Steiner Schools Fellowship Publications, 1986, p. 91]
-Dan Dugan
===========================================================
INSTANT CAR INSURANCE QUOTE! Save time, save money, and
get the best deal. Get quote, buy, and print insurance
cards online!
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===========================================================
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 00:40:02 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: quotes on discipline?
Walden, you wrote,
)Well, if this is translated correctly from it's original German then I stand
)corrected on my previous post. I sincerely hope no Waldorf teacher - no
)matter how anthroposophically inspired - can justify Steiner's suggestions
)in the passage below. I welcome comments on this quote - please. This is
)abuse - pure and simple.
Well, yes, but at the time these punishments might have been
considered a reform, compared to much more brutal practices like
caning. BTW I haven't read Alice Miller's "For Your Own Good" yet,
but I hope to soon.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1310
-- Topica Digest --
Re: quotes on discipline?
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: honesty
By bangus nb.sympatico.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 08:35:10 -0400
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: quotes on discipline?
Stocks made in woodworking class!?! Whew ..... I have often felt, upon
reading Steiner, that he did not think of young children as actual, fully
formed human beings, but never has a quotation from him been quite so
telling as this one.
I thought that some of the other shaming devices and techniques that I have
either read about children at Waldorf going through or heard/observed myself
were bad.
But to put children in stocks?
Is anyone else slightly nauseous?
Lisa
) From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 17:13:28 -0700
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Re: quotes on discipline?
)
) ===========================================================
) Your opinion counts! We?re conducting a survey for a
) computer service/repair company. When you complete our
) survey, you will also be entered into a drawing for one of
) ten $100 prizes. Just click
) http://click.topica.com/caab6Pib1dkiGb1IpcOa/ Val Rad
) ===========================================================
) Aurora, you wrote,
)
)) In my scouring of the archives, however, I have been
)) unable to find specific quotes from Steiner regarding the use of
)) shame/humiliation as means to motivate or punish the student. I have
)) seen plenty of references to this tactic , but not actual quotes...It
)) would be helpful to me to read something directly if anyone has ready
)) access to that or pointers to find it.
)) Thanks so much,
)
) I've found this:
)
) "If a child is ten minutes late, keep him standing for thirty
) minutes. Make them stand uncomfortably! Your boy was rubbing his head
) along the wall and playing with all kinds of things. If the
) punishment is to fit the crime I think you can achieve good results
) with things like this if you make them stand in an especially
) uncomfortable place. These big ones will then see to it that they are
) not late. You could buy a number of small stocks, then you won't have
) them coming late six at a time. Perhaps they will have a little bit
) of cramp in their legs. The stocks could also be made in Woodwork
) lessons." [Steiner, Rudolf. Conferences with the Teachers of the
) Waldorf School in Stuttgart 1919 to 1920: Volume One: The First and
) Second Years of the Waldorf School, Stuttgart. (1920) Forest Row,
) U.K.: Steiner Schools Fellowship Publications, 1986, p. 91]
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
) ===========================================================
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)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 10:35:30 -0300
From: "Bruce Angus" (bangus nb.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: honesty
Hi Dan - Yes, go ahead.
Hi Peter and Steve - Regarding the belief that parents "can't and won't understand": it's one outcome of anthroposophical self-development, which filters down into the work with parents. Steiner's indications are considered the last word in divine knowledge and child education. We tend to shrug our shoulders and move on to other things when we're under the illusion others can't possibly understand what it is we're talking about, or won't believe and therefore won't support us.
I came across this on the weekend: Kids and the Media; A talk with Eugene Schwartz - ".children can listen to a parent telling a fairy tale, and quietly "digest" it and live with it for days as it becomes part of their being. After watching a TV show, however, they are compelled to noisily and wildly "act it out", because it is digesting THEM, and they cannot digest it - they regurgitate the indigestible media content, and become anti-social or even destructive."
How can children be "digested" and what's the "digesting THEM" remark actually about? Eugene Schwartz is alluding to (but isn't sharing) the anthroposophical Waldorf belief that Ahriman is devouring the soul forces of children who watch TV. And "IT is digesting them" is as close as the listener gets to an actual explanation. Why might he have taken this approach?
First, acknowledging Ahriman means also recognizing Christ - Ahriman cannot exist without Christ, and the two are most definitely linked to one another. By avoiding the Ahriman discussion specifically, Eugene Schwartz steers clear of what would be his next natural, logical and ethical responsibility - informing his listeners that Christ forces are also at work in human development matters, and that anthroposophical Waldorf pedagogy calls upon these forces to help counteract the effects of Ahriman.
Second, the examples serve to polarize: fairy tales are quiet whereas TV is noisy and wild; fairy tales, digested, become part of their being, while indigestible media leads to anti-social and destructive behavior. Good and bad, good and bad.
Why do groups use their particular beliefs in ways that polarize, and condemn others and their lifestyles? One cannot instill concern and even fear, one cannot acquire control, and one cannot establish their apocalyptic (sorry, but that's what it is!) philosophy of opposing and warring spiritual forces, without anchoring it all in a world of extremes, of good versus evil.
And why is noisy and wild, bad? Couldn't noisy and wild be viewed in an equally positive light, and be understood as a particular type of enthusiasm for life? Quiet is unnatural if you impose it on children who love and need noisy and wild.
Bruce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1311
-- Topica Digest --
RE: quotes on discipline?
By stella_blue88 hotmail.com
RE: quotes on discipline?
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: quotes on discipline?
By momof2gals mindspring.com
RE: quotes on discipline?
By dan dandugan.com
RE: quotes on discipline?
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: quotes on discipline?
By ldpavia hotmail.com
new Waldorf web site
By dan dandugan.com
Re: quotes on discipline?
By momof2gals mindspring.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 15:32:47 +0000
From: Aurora Weir (stella_blue88 hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: quotes on discipline?
Wow, I never expected the answer to be something about using stocks?!
:(
I thought there must be something about using dunce caps, or sending
children to sit alone outside of the class, or sending upper grades
children to the lower grades/kindergarten...I've also heard of using
"golden scarves" to encircle a child to "help" her sit in a chair or
"golden cloths" pressed lightly upon the child's lips if they say curse
words or the use of humilating clothing/turning clothing inside out if
the deemed 'inappropriate'. I've heard these things happening at more
than one school so thought perhaps these were prescriptions from Steiner
- but, stocks?! How outrageous! I guess the other humilation tactics
are , as Walden suggested, just passed down from teacher to teacher in
training.
Thank you for answering my query.
Aurora
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 12:03:47 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: quotes on discipline?
I have one more on the "shame" question from Steiner.
He is here speaking of "education for the moral life":
" . . . here too we must read from children's own nature how they should be
treated. If you give children of seven a conception of cause and effect you
are working against the development of their human nature, and punishments
also are often opposed to the real development of their nature.
. . . Dr. Stein, a teacher at the Waldorf School, often thought of very good
educational methods on the spur of the moment. He once noticed that his
pupils were passing notes under the desk. They were not attending to the
lesson, but were writing notes and passing them under their desks to their
neighbors who then wrote notes in reply. Now Dr. Stein did not scold them
for writing notes and say: 'I shall have to punish you,' or something of
that sort, but quite suddenly he began to speak about the postal system and
give them a lecture on it. At first the children were quite mystified as to
why they were suddenly being given a lesson on the postal system, but soon
they realized why it was being done. This subtle method of changing the
subject made the children feel ashamed. They began to feel ashamed of
themselves and stopped writing notes simply on account of the thoughts about
the postal system that the teacher had woven into the lesson . . .
. . . you must know that in certain cases improvement, which is really what
we are aiming at in punishment, is much more likely to ensue if the children
are brought to a sense of shame in this way without drawing special
attention to it or to any one child; this is far more effective than
employing some crude kind of punishment."
Rudolf Steiner, Kingdom of Childhood (Seven Lectures and Answers to
Questions, given in Torquay, August 12-20, 1924), Hudson, NY: Anthroposophic
Press, revised translation 1995, pp.52-53.
My take on this is similar to Dan's: Steiner doesn't mean to suggest
anything brutal here; if anything he is recommending a move away from
traditional, more brutal punishments. He is not only suggesting that there
doesn't need to be a beating here, he's even suggesting not singling out an
individual child for embarrassment.
I looked for some time to determine whether Steiner ever actually said
anything about corporal punishment, and I finally found it. Steiner did
speak *against* corporal punishment in schools. I can post the reference if
anyone's interested.
So if you put Steiner's pedagogical advice in historical context, he
probably represents an improvement over earlier, more brutal pedagogical and
child-rearing premises. I think when he speaks of surrounding children with
love and goodness, etc., he is speaking against beatings. Clever little
stories like this one about the impromptu lecture on the postal system are
meant to give teachers a more light-hearted alternative than grabbing the
note-passers by the scruff of the neck and smacking them around or throwing
them out in the hall.
But today, this is a given, or should be. It may have looked like a clever,
more human disciplinary suggestion then - but I don't see why we would look
to Steiner as a great source of inspiration today. It goes without saying
the teacher should not smack a kid for passing notes in class, and any
average, kind teacher can probably come up with an even better solution to
the note-passing than Steiner's.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 16:46:36 +0000 (GMT+00:00)
From: momof2gals mindspring.com
Subject: RE: quotes on discipline?
I cannot believe that I am actually writing in support of something Steiner said, but I have to agree with the guru's assertion that Dr. Stein's decision to suddenly discuss the postal system when he discovered children passing notes in class was nothing short of brilliant! The kind of "shame" that such a move sparks in children is very, very different, at least to my mind, than the sort of "shame" that a child feels if she is made to wear a dunce cap, or is berated in front of a class of peers. Very different. Making a ridiculous spectacle of a child who misbehaves vis a vis a dunce cap or a lecture or otherwise setting the child apart invokes a real feeling of embarrassment and even humiliation. Commencing a lecture on postal systems when catching several children passing notes evokes quite a different sort of feeling in the children: the feeling that they have done wrong and that the teacher knows it and is letting them know it without great fanfare. That latter helps *shape* good behavior because it models it. The former does not. It only teaches children that embarrassment is effective punishment.
Lisa
----Original Message-----
From: Diana Winters (Diana.Winters verizon.net)
Sent: Apr 6, 2004 4:03 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: RE: quotes on discipline?
===========================================================
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I have one more on the "shame" question from Steiner.
He is here speaking of "education for the moral life":
" . . . here too we must read from children's own nature how they should be
treated. If you give children of seven a conception of cause and effect you
are working against the development of their human nature, and punishments
also are often opposed to the real development of their nature.
. . . Dr. Stein, a teacher at the Waldorf School, often thought of very good
educational methods on the spur of the moment. He once noticed that his
pupils were passing notes under the desk. They were not attending to the
lesson, but were writing notes and passing them under their desks to their
neighbors who then wrote notes in reply. Now Dr. Stein did not scold them
for writing notes and say: 'I shall have to punish you,' or something of
that sort, but quite suddenly he began to speak about the postal system and
give them a lecture on it. At first the children were quite mystified as to
why they were suddenly being given a lesson on the postal system, but soon
they realized why it was being done. This subtle method of changing the
subject made the children feel ashamed. They began to feel ashamed of
themselves and stopped writing notes simply on account of the thoughts about
the postal system that the teacher had woven into the lesson . . .
. . . you must know that in certain cases improvement, which is really what
we are aiming at in punishment, is much more likely to ensue if the children
are brought to a sense of shame in this way without drawing special
attention to it or to any one child; this is far more effective than
employing some crude kind of punishment."
Rudolf Steiner, Kingdom of Childhood (Seven Lectures and Answers to
Questions, given in Torquay, August 12-20, 1924), Hudson, NY: Anthroposophic
Press, revised translation 1995, pp.52-53.
My take on this is similar to Dan's: Steiner doesn't mean to suggest
anything brutal here; if anything he is recommending a move away from
traditional, more brutal punishments. He is not only suggesting that there
doesn't need to be a beating here, he's even suggesting not singling out an
individual child for embarrassment.
I looked for some time to determine whether Steiner ever actually said
anything about corporal punishment, and I finally found it. Steiner did
speak *against* corporal punishment in schools. I can post the reference if
anyone's interested.
So if you put Steiner's pedagogical advice in historical context, he
probably represents an improvement over earlier, more brutal pedagogical and
child-rearing premises. I think when he speaks of surrounding children with
love and goodness, etc., he is speaking against beatings. Clever little
stories like this one about the impromptu lecture on the postal system are
meant to give teachers a more light-hearted alternative than grabbing the
note-passers by the scruff of the neck and smacking them around or throwing
them out in the hall.
But today, this is a given, or should be. It may have looked like a clever,
more human disciplinary suggestion then - but I don't see why we would look
to Steiner as a great source of inspiration today. It goes without saying
the teacher should not smack a kid for passing notes in class, and any
average, kind teacher can probably come up with an even better solution to
the note-passing than Steiner's.
Diana
===========================================================
Graduate in less than 13 months with AIU’s Online virtual
campus. Classrooms and student service as close as your
computer. Highly accredited, study anytime – anywhere.
http://click.topica.com/caab6anb1dkiGb1IpcOf/ AIU
===========================================================
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 10:17:26 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: quotes on discipline?
A friend passed this on:
"We can hardly do anything else than put all of them together, give
them a certain area so they are ashamed when they don't get anything
done. They need something that would be obviously complete so tat
they will be ashamed of themselves when they finish only a quarter.
But not a hint of ambition. What I said does not count upon ambition,
but upon shame. We could also form a group that looks at what they
have done in the presence of the children and brings some
dissatisfaction to expression. I think that if Mrs. Molt and Mr. Hahn
were called upon to look at what he did, then M.T. would certainly
decide to work in order not to cause any words of displeasure.
Another method would be that you take those children and keep them
close to you during class, but that is difficult to do. We must make
them feel ashamed when they do not finish. I would not arouse the
feeling of ambition, but of shame."
Faculty Meetings with Teachers, 1988 edition, p. 93.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 15:33:39 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: quotes on discipline?
I think both these examples are things we can do better on today. I don't
view the postal system lecture as exactly brilliant as Lisa says, nor is
this thing about making them embarrassed if they don't finish something. I
view it as merely an improvement over beatings or verbal humiliation or
belittling of a child. I'd be disappointed if my son's teacher pulled this
postal system trick - it's unnecessary to condescend to children this way. I
expect teachers to talk to my son openly and honestly and with respect, to
tell him if they have a problem with his behavior, to talk to him and to me
about how to deal with it if he is causing a problem to others, or there is
some reason he is not finishing his work.
But, I have the luxury of insisting that he be treated with utmost respect,
because I can take it for granted that the teacher will not beat him. If she
did I would not only take my child out of the school, I'd have her charged
with assault and battery. In Steiner's day the beatings were routine and so
his advice appeared progressive in comparison. My point is it's a bit of an
exaggeration to see it as progressive *today*.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 21:11:41 -0500
From: "Lawrence Pavia" (ldpavia hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: quotes on discipline?
Dear Dan,
Thank you for sending Waldorf Critics Topics to my new e-mail address.
Could you please remove the Waldorf Critics Topics from the old
"ldpavia hotmail.com" address? I appreciate it.
Thank you!
Larry
_________________________________________________________________
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months!
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 18:45:42 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: new Waldorf web site
Our old friend Sune Nordwall, and Robert Mays, have put up a web site
Waldorf Answers:
http://www.waldorfanswers.org
At the outset it is one of the most honest advertisements yet to appear:
"Waldorf or Rudolf Steiner education is based on an anthroposophical
view and understanding of the human being, that is, as a being of
body, soul and spirit. The education mirrors the basic stages of a
child's development from childhood to adulthood, which in general
reflects the development of humanity through history from our origin,
far back in past times up to the present."
When it gets down to details the language gets more weaselly. Take a look.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 23:10:55 -0400
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: quotes on discipline?
Though Diana disagrees with me, I stand by my statement that the teacher
suddenly launching into a lecture on postal service when kids are seen
passing notes is a brilliant move and one that I would be happy to hear
about any teacher doing today. I think it is smart, gentle and effective,
which is what I would ask of any teacher dealing with children. Diana,
perhaps you think a better solution to the note passing scenario would be
for the teacher to say "Lisa, Diana, you are not paying attention. I can see
you are passing notes, and that is very discourteous to the rest of the
class. Please stop at once." That would be fine, too. I just think that the
postal service lecture idea is smarter and more to the point, and avoids
actually naming any particular child while getting the point across. Just to
see if my thinking on this was somehow skewed, I put this scenario to
several parents I know (non Waldorf parents whose approach to child rearing
I admire and approve of) and every last one laughed out loud and said
"Brilliant!"
That said, let me state here that there are very few things that Steiner
said or suggested that I actually approve of or agree with. This happens to
be one of them.
But then again, I probably put myself in the minority here or anywhere when
I say that though I do NOT approve of children (or anyone else) being
ruthlessly shamed by others, I do think there are times when today's society
could benefit from human beings feeling the emotion of shame once in awhile.
I honestly believe that in today's get-ahead-at-all-costs society -- a
society in which lying is often condoned as long as it serves ones purpose
-- it would not be a totally bad idea to bring back the notion of shame. It
used to be if someone violated ethical norms, that person would feel
ashamed, as in "I am ashamed of myself. I cannot believe I said
thus-and-thus about so-and-so," or "I can't believe I cheated on that test.
That was wrong of me." That feeling might then shape future behavior in a
positive way.
Please know that I am not saying I think it is all right to shame children;
though I do believe that feelings of shame are not always misplaced and
wrong.
Lisa
) From: Diana Winters (Diana.Winters verizon.net)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 15:33:39 -0400
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: RE: quotes on discipline?
)
) ===========================================================
) Sign up to get FREE information from leading colleges!
) Compare degrees, admissions, financial aid and more.
) Study your career education options at
) Collegeinformation.info.
) http://click.topica.com/caab6aib1dkiGb1IpcOa/ College Info
) ===========================================================
)
)
)
) I think both these examples are things we can do better on today. I don't
) view the postal system lecture as exactly brilliant as Lisa says, nor is
) this thing about making them embarrassed if they don't finish something. I
) view it as merely an improvement over beatings or verbal humiliation or
) belittling of a child. I'd be disappointed if my son's teacher pulled this
) postal system trick - it's unnecessary to condescend to children this way. I
) expect teachers to talk to my son openly and honestly and with respect, to
) tell him if they have a problem with his behavior, to talk to him and to me
) about how to deal with it if he is causing a problem to others, or there is
) some reason he is not finishing his work.
)
) But, I have the luxury of insisting that he be treated with utmost respect,
) because I can take it for granted that the teacher will not beat him. If she
) did I would not only take my child out of the school, I'd have her charged
) with assault and battery. In Steiner's day the beatings were routine and so
) his advice appeared progressive in comparison. My point is it's a bit of an
) exaggeration to see it as progressive *today*.
) Diana
)
) ===========================================================
) Graduate in less than 13 months with AIU?s Online virtual
) campus. Classrooms and student service as close as your
) computer. Highly accredited, study anytime ? anywhere.
) http://click.topica.com/caab6anb1dkiGb1IpcOf/ AIU
) ===========================================================
)
)
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
)
)
)
)
)
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1312
-- Topica Digest --
Re: new Waldorf web site
By bangus nb.sympatico.ca
RE: new Waldorf web site
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: quotes on discipline?
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
www.WaldorfCritics.com Feedback
By dan dandugan.com
Race...
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 09:45:18 -0300
From: "Bruce Angus" (bangus nb.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: new Waldorf web site
From that new site - Jean Yeager, Administrative Director of the Anthroposophical Society in America writes about ANTHROPOSOPHY COMPARED WITH RELIGION:
"1. Anthroposophy has no dogma or creed - the Statutes of the Anthroposophical Society specifically forbid dogma."
It's almost perverse that this statement tops Jean Yeager's long list in such emphatic fashion. No dogma? So the archangel Michael really isn't the right hand of Christ and the Time spirit of our age? So the etherisation of our universe isn't happening due to the singular underlying principle of Christ's penetration into the earth? So I don't have to believe any of that stuff yet still have a chance to become, say, the Administrative Director of the Anthroposophical Society in America?
Man, the delusions and deceptions get downright despicable when the truth is closing in on you. Sorry, I don't usually criticize (so harshly) but this makes me very angry. I spent so many years trying to make it clear to so many people that if you say you're truly interested in social renewal, then you actually have to first go do it yourself. You have to become the very same moral, truth-abiding beings you're (supposedly) educating the children to become. Bah!
Shame on the Jean Yeager and the Anthroposophical Society. The worst, the very worst kind of lie is the bend-the-truth-to-suit type. People who do that are aware they're lying, but refuse to acknowledge it. When flat-out liars lie, they're thinking: "Catch me in my lie if you can!" That has some degree of truth in it at least. Bend-the-truth-to-suit lies are double lies: one lies about lying. They're a by-product of one's misplaced belief in moral superiority: "The normal rules don't apply because I'm speaking from a far more spiritually advanced perspective."
The heavens are laughing and guffawing and rolling on the clouds because the cosmic joke's on the Anthroposophical Society - the self-professed guardians of the so-called new morality. They think they're Jesus, but in fact they've taken on the Judas role: used by the cosmos to teach the rest of us a humility lesson in how to betray the good things one's been given in life.
Bruce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 09:11:04 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: new Waldorf web site
Boy, that was a great post, Bruce, so heartfelt! Can you hear me cheering
over here? :)
You are so right, there is a serious moral crisis in the very top levels of
anthroposophy, if this sort of thing is any indication. I agree with you, it
is blatant and calculated dishonesty.
Very timely, too, I am about to go share some of this info. on the
anthroposophy_tomorrow list, where we were just informed, in the midst of a
thoughtful discussion about what is most essential in anthroposophy, that of
course it is Christ, there is no room for doubt there, they reply testily,
you can do you-know-what with your multiple interpretations and your
nonliteralist readings of sacred texts. . . This had me scratching my head a
bit, thinking of all the times we've heard the "there is no dogma in
anthroposophy," "anthroposophy is not a religion" mantra.
Anyone interested should also check out a recent thread on SJU, where a
Waldorf teacher mentioned the anthroposophic notion that children choose
their parents. Other posters had not heard about this and were interested.
The teacher then replied much more guardedly (you could almost hear the
warnings she must have received privately) that of course this was just her
personal belief and nothing, really, to do with anthroposophy. The
moderators have now declared the whole subject off-topic, and reprimanded
the posters for not taking the the dialogue off list! What's this got to do
with Waldorf education eh!!!! Irrelevant, off with her head!!
Diana
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Angus [mailto:bangus nb.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 7:45 AM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: new Waldorf web site
From that new site - Jean Yeager, Administrative Director of the
Anthroposophical Society in America writes about ANTHROPOSOPHY COMPARED WITH
RELIGION:
"1. Anthroposophy has no dogma or creed - the Statutes of the
Anthroposophical Society specifically forbid dogma."
It's almost perverse that this statement tops Jean Yeager's long list in
such emphatic fashion. No dogma? So the archangel Michael really isn't the
right hand of Christ and the Time spirit of our age? So the etherisation of
our universe isn't happening due to the singular underlying principle of
Christ's penetration into the earth? So I don't have to believe any of that
stuff yet still have a chance to become, say, the Administrative Director of
the Anthroposophical Society in America?
Man, the delusions and deceptions get downright despicable when the truth is
closing in on you. Sorry, I don't usually criticize (so harshly) but this
makes me very angry. I spent so many years trying to make it clear to so
many people that if you say you're truly interested in social renewal, then
you actually have to first go do it yourself. You have to become the very
same moral, truth-abiding beings you're (supposedly) educating the children
to become. Bah!
Shame on the Jean Yeager and the Anthroposophical Society. The worst, the
very worst kind of lie is the bend-the-truth-to-suit type. People who do
that are aware they're lying, but refuse to acknowledge it. When flat-out
liars lie, they're thinking: "Catch me in my lie if you can!" That has some
degree of truth in it at least. Bend-the-truth-to-suit lies are double lies:
one lies about lying. They're a by-product of one's misplaced belief in
moral superiority: "The normal rules don't apply because I'm speaking from a
far more spiritually advanced perspective."
The heavens are laughing and guffawing and rolling on the clouds because the
cosmic joke's on the Anthroposophical Society - the self-professed guardians
of the so-called new morality. They think they're Jesus, but in fact they've
taken on the Judas role: used by the cosmos to teach the rest of us a
humility lesson in how to betray the good things one's been given in life.
Bruce
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 19:31:25 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: quotes on discipline?
Dan, you replied to my comment:
Walden, you wrote,
)Well, if this is translated correctly from it's original German then I
stand
)corrected on my previous post. I sincerely hope no Waldorf teacher - no
)matter how anthroposophically inspired - can justify Steiner's suggestions
)in the passage below. I welcome comments on this quote - please. This is
)abuse - pure and simple.
"Well, yes, but at the time these punishments might have been
considered a reform, compared to much more brutal practices like
caning. BTW I haven't read Alice Miller's "For Your Own Good" yet,
but I hope to soon."
-Dan Dugan
Agreed with the *sign of the times* sentiment but was Steiner not supposed
to understand child development? Was he not years ahead of his time? Do we
not hear this today from Anthroposophists/Waldorf supporters - that today
modern child experts are catching on to what Steiner knew so long ago? Is
shaming children and making them suffer emotionally and physically
considered appropriate in this day and age? I think not. Could Steiner not
tap into streams of past and future using the akashic record and his
clairvoyant abilities? If he was simply a product of his times, what does
it say about his spiritual insights?
I am surprised and very disappointed that we have seen no response on this
list from pro-Waldorf/Anthroposophy members regarding these Steiner quotes.
We can agree to disagree on many points but I *hope* we can all agree that
when Steiner suggests child abuse as a form of punishment he is simply very
very wrong.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 23:36:16 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Cc: mmwarga lclark.edu
Subject: www.WaldorfCritics.com Feedback
Molly, thank you for writing to PLANS. I'm replying to your message
on our public discussion list "waldorf-critics," with a copy to you.
Please subscribe to the list if you want to participate in any
subsequent discussion. Both critics and supporters of Waldorf are
heard here. To subscribe, go to:
http://www.waldorfcritics.com/active/critics.html
) From: mmwarga lclark.edu
) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004
) To: webmaster waldorfcritics.org
) Subject: www.WaldorfCritics.com Feedback
)
) dear Waldorf critics,
) I am a Waldorf graduate in my first year of college. I stumbled upon
) your website and I read some of your archives, I find some of the
) things extremely hurtful and offensive to graduates such as myself.
) what do you think Waldorf does. i having been through the system know
) what Waldorf education really is, and I to can see its downfalls but to
) say such things on your website, such as, all the children that attend
) Waldorf are "nasty Brats", what are you trying to accomplish by writing
) such things. To write things like the above statement seems not only
) counterproductive to your goal but also very hurtful to people such as
) myself. who can take a website such as yours seriously when you write
) things like that, things which have no purpose but bash Waldorf
) education, but by saying these things you are really only bashing the
) children, and how did they ever deserve such treatment from disgruntled
) parents.
I did a search of our site for "nasty brats" (just click the Search
target on the right of the PLANS main page) and found the text that
offended you. Were you aware of the context? The statement was made
by a poster to a discussion list for parents of gifted children, in
which the writer gave a rather scathing account of her personal
research into Waldorf. The posting was re-posted (with the name
removed) to the waldorf-critics list by Sabrina, one of our
subscribers, who thought it was relevant.
You have no grounds to say that we are "writing such things." Please
read more carefully. The waldorf-critics list was founded in 1995
because there was a need for free discussion about Waldorf. The
official Waldorf discussion list was then, and is now, controlled by
the moderators so that criticism of Waldorf is suppressed. Things are
quite different on waldorf-critics where people can, and do, say
anything that is on-topic and doesn't attack individuals. Your
"education towards freedom" ought to help you to understand the
difference.
) As I said I am a Waldorf graduate and I am not brainwashed by
) the Waldorf system, I am not blind to the complaints and problems of
) Waldorf education. Please, do not assume things about Waldorf
) students, if you have a problem with the institution of Waldorf
) criticize the institution not the children.
That is what we do.
) I decided to look at your
) website to get another concise and reasonable perspective on Waldorf
) education, however by many of the comments printed I can only find more
) criticism against this website then against Waldorf education. We are
) not all brainwashed freaks blinded by the good of Waldorf education.
) How can you assume you know more about the education than a student,
) get some real opinions from people who really know.
We all know different things about Waldorf; you as a student, I as a
former parent, other discussants on the list as board members and
teachers. All perspectives are helpful in understanding something as
complex as Waldorf and Atnhroposophy.
) P.S. I am sorry if this e-mail is offensive, but imagine what I felt by
) some of the harsh words used to describe Waldorf students.
) sincerely, molly
I do hope you will read more carefully. You're welcome to join the
public discussion and share your experience.
-Dan Dugan
Secretary, PLANS, Inc.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 23:45:58 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Race...
Following the fascinating discussion on Steiner, Anthroposophy and racism
at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/
I find myself looking for more information on the Anthroposophic view of
"race" and "aryan" from different sources. Here is one from not too long
ago where we see that an Aryan might incarnate within another race as a
"sacrificial gesture."
"'Aryan' is a name that comes out of occult tradition and has often been
used by Rudolf Steiner. The Aryan is the spiritual European, the being who
with an individualised ego, has a developing consciousness soul directed
towards balancing wisdom with morality. This is taken to the point where the
personality is drawn from this balance, where wisdom and morality form as it
were, a chalice and there is not just wisdom for wisdom's sake! During this
century an extreme form of outward racial connotation has been given to the
term Aryan, particularly by Adolf Hitler who by materialising the spiritual
task and nature of the Aryan attempted to create an evil counterpart to true
spiritual evolution.
"The Aryan type works through the European race in general although he may
incarnate within another race as a sacrificial gesture to assist in the
destiny of that race. This can happen to assist the individualizing of
personalities in that race so that their unique qualities are freed to
contribute towards mankind's future. The immediate cultural task lies with
the Aryan."
Downer, Graham. "The South African Paleolithic Age." Invisible Africa: A
search for the Grail in Africa--Selected Essays. Kenilworth, Republic of
South Africa: Novalis Press, 1987, p. 188.
-Walden
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1313
-- Topica Digest --
Anthroposophy "embraces the spiritual truths reflected in all religions"
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: www.WaldorfCritics.com Feedback
By sarinamcdonald msn.com
Re: www.WaldorfCritics.com Feedback
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Anthroposophy "embraces the spiritual truths reflected in all religions"
By bangus nb.sympatico.ca
Re: Anthroposophy
"embraces the spiritual truths reflected in all religions"
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 08:08:50 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: Anthroposophy "embraces the spiritual truths reflected in all religions"
A recent exchange from anthroposophy_tomorrow:
Tarjei proclaimed:
)The core of Anthroposophy is the Christ, also known as the Risen One, the
God of the Spiritual Sun. There is no room )for "legitimate disagreement"
about that, because everything else is nonsense."
I wondered why it is, then, given this proud affirmation of faith, that
Waldorf parents are repeatedly told there is no creed in anthroposophy, in
fact it is not a religion, as recently stated by Jean Yeager and quoted at
Sune's new web site (which is a new attempt to smoothe over some of these
potential little areas of disgruntlement Waldorf parents encounter).
Tarjei replied:
)Jean Yeager is telling the truth. Anthroposophy does not rest upon
religious faith, but upon initiation-science. All true )religions also have
an esoteric tradition, such as the Kabbalah and the Sufi and so on.
Anthroposophy is the science of )man in a comprehensive, cosmic sense,
embracing the spiritual truths reflected in all religions, not a religion
about man in )an abstract, theological, sectarian sense.
Got it. Other folks have religion, you folks have "truth." Your "truth"
subsumes ("embraces") everyone else's. There's no creed in anthroposophy, it
*just so happens* to be the absolute truth.
It should be obvious, but I guess it's not. When anthroposophists
characterize other religions as "abstract," "theological," and "sectarian,"
in order to contrast them with anthroposophy, which is supposedly none of
these things, the contrast is bogus. All religions have not only theology
and abstract doctrines, but also rituals and meditative practices and paths
to enlightenment, and the same, exact sense that they possess an interior,
living truth, a direct and vital connection to the deity or spiritual
realities that is somehow missing in other religions. Even this belief that
you *alone* possess these living truths, while other religions have only
partial truths, or "dead," "sectarian" ideologies, makes you not stand out
from other religions, on the contrary it is one more predictable similarity
to other dogmas.
)I know it's hard to see the difference for some people, but it's the
unvarnished truth you've been asking for, so take it or )leave it.
Likewise, I know this is very difficult for religious dogmatists to hear,
but here's another truth: Not everyone believes anthroposophy is "the
truth," embracing all other truths, subsuming all other religions, providing
comprehensive answers to all cosmic questions. Newsflash: there are
thousands of religions in the world.
It is arrogant to presume *your truth* is a truth other people want to have
imposed on their families, have their lives turned upside down to further
the aims of a movement they do not know the first thing about. Steiner would
not approve. It is not ethical. It is not "freedom." You understand
yourselves as possessors of cosmic truths, but you need to present
yourselves honestly to the world. People can get pretty fighting mad when
they find out they've been led on this sort of wild goose chase, when a few
words spoken honestly at the first interview with a family could have
prevented it.
If I can't hire you for the PR reform, Tarjei, how about Bradford? Simply a
5-minute spiel from Bradford about the I Am and the Michael School and a
small selection of Stunning Truths from the Bradford smorgasbord would
explain a great deal of what is going on in Waldorf schools and would be
very helpful. This is necessary to give the movement a solid ethical base;
parents need this as much as a spiel about the head, heart and hands and the
dangers of television.
If Jean Yeager is listening, I'd like to ask her, do you not understand why
it is not ok that, among themselves, anthroposophists proclaim their
devotion to the Cosmic Christ and yet to parents lining up with their
checkbooks to enroll their children, "anthroposophy has no creed"?
Diana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 07:31:15 -0700
From: "Sarina McDonald" (sarinamcdonald msn.com)
Subject: Re: www.WaldorfCritics.com Feedback
Hi Dan,
You posted "The posting was re-posted (with the name
removed) to the waldorf-critics list by Sabrina, one of our
subscribers, who thought it was relevant."
FYI, my name is SARINA - no 'b'.
Silly.
:-)
S.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 10:49:58 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: www.WaldorfCritics.com Feedback
)FYI, my name is SARINA - no 'b'.
Oops, sorry Sarina.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 17:45:38 -0300
From: "Bruce Angus" (bangus nb.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophy "embraces the spiritual truths reflected in all religions"
Diana quoting Tarjei: "There is no room for "legitimate disagreement" about that, because everything else is nonsense. it's the unvarnished truth. take it or leave it."
These comments expose the attitude and, subsequently, approach to community development that's responsible for all the disorder, turmoil and animosity in so many schools.
The disorder arises as one group assumes leadership by virtue of their spiritual authority. The rest of the community simply doesn't know how to support this. People can support without necessarily understanding if there's a sense of, at the very least, open-mindedness on the part of their leaders. What people see though are community leaders with no-room-for-legitimate-disagreement attitudes and everything-else-is-nonsense opinions - leaders without the requisite understanding or tools to lead.
The ensuing turmoil (a community will slide into turmoil very quickly with leaders like this) eventually turns to a kind of apathetic animosity as the "take it or leave it" attitude of the leaders begins to rub off on the rest of the community. People will take it because they appreciate the education, but will leave giving their hearts to such an unenlightened approach to human interaction and community development.
Diana quoting Tarjei: "Anthroposophy is. not a religion about man in an abstract, theological, sectarian sense."
Until he actually shows up one evening while you're watching TV or busy on the computer, Ahriman is an abstraction. Another sign someone isn't able to offer responsible guidance is their inability and/or unwillingness to balance their perspectives and apply the same logic to all questions and issues. Believing in Ahriman because Anthroposophy says he's real, is a theological (following a body of doctrines) and sectarian (adhering to a specific group) approach to understanding things, IMO.
Bruce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 22:42:34 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophy
"embraces the spiritual truths reflected in all religions"
Bruce wrote:
)The disorder arises as one group assumes leadership by virtue of their
spiritual authority. The rest of the community simply doesn't know how to
support this. )People can support without necessarily understanding if
there's a sense of, at the very least, open-mindedness on the part of their
leaders. What people see though )are community leaders with
no-room-for-legitimate-disagreement attitudes and
everything-else-is-nonsense opinions - leaders without the requisite
understanding )or tools to lead.
)The ensuing turmoil (a community will slide into turmoil very quickly with
leaders like this) eventually turns to a kind of apathetic animosity as the
"take it or leave )it" attitude of the leaders begins to rub off on the rest
of the community. People will take it because they appreciate the education,
but will leave giving their hearts )to such an unenlightened approach to
human interaction and community development.
Pretty perceptive, Bruce. Bingo. Speaking from the I (yes-I still remember
(g))... I'm not sure it was as much as I appreciated the education as much
as I had been lead to believe that the alternative was out of the question -
i.e. "Do you have any idea how fortunate we all are to have Waldorf
education and these dedicated teachers? Can you imagine your precious child
in a mainstream school with tests, coke machines, et.?" I eventually lived
in a strange brew of believing + apathetic animosity and got used to
questions receiving no answers. After a few years, the thought of pulling
out seemed cruel to the children - and not only *my* children. Whenever a
parent pulled their child, we were reminded of the disruption this caused to
the class. Now - speaking away from the *I* - many families continue to put
up with the spiritual hierarchy and just simply hope this education is
really better than any alternative. "Better the devil I know," a dad once
told me.
We spoke often of the strange heavy, boxed in feeling of the school. "What
is this feeling all about?" Why can we not tear down these heavy walls?"
Only when we leave are we able to begin to understand those feelings - the
*sense* of community... the *sense* of security. Only when the walls come
tumbling down will all people (non-Anthros, too) see Ahriman and Lucifer
and Michael and understand that Rudolf Steiner was much more than a
philosopher or scientist. As it stands now, the heaviness is wrapped in
spiritual authority and that ain't healthy, IMO. For a movement ostensibly
concerned with light, there sure is an abundance of darkness.
And about those horrible tests and coke machines...? They can be avoided
outside the world of Waldorf. Or they can become lessons in themselves.
Waldorf does not monopolize goodness or values.
-Walden
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1314
-- Topica Digest --
Re: www.WaldorfCritics.com Feedback
By sarinamcdonald msn.com
RE: Race...
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: Race...
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 22:24:40 -0700
From: "Sarina McDonald" (sarinamcdonald msn.com)
Subject: Re: www.WaldorfCritics.com Feedback
)FYI, my name is SARINA - no 'b'.
Oops, sorry Sarina.
-Dan Dugan
No problem, Dan, it happens all the time!
S.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 06:06:54 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Race...
G'day Walden,
I have been following at least some of the discussion over at AT as well and
I find it fascinating. My summary of the various threads of the argument
goes somthing like this.
1. It's impossible for anything Steiner wrote or said to be racist because
he was ... (fill in the blanks), hence there is no need to discuss any
extracts from Steiner's lectures or writings as racist or non racist.
2. If an extract is found that is apparently racist then it has been
misunderstood by the reader, the translator and the other translator, or it
has been taken out of context. The only correct context appears to be the
sum total of everything that Steiner wrote or said which is all wonderful
and therefor could not be racist (see 1 above).
3. It is not racist to arrange the races into a hierarchy of spiritual
development, and therefor Steiner's writings are not racist.
4. Staudenmaier is
(a) dishonest and forges and/or deliberately misrepresents Steiner's
writings.
(b) a communist and therefor everything he writes is suspect.
(c) an atheist and therefor everything he writes is suspect.
(d) incapable of seeing past the words to the meaning.
I hope I have not misrepresented what I think are the important threads or
that I have left out a thread which others might think is very important.
The various arguments in support of thread 1 seem to me to be ridiculous.
Thread 2 has some interesting possibilities. It seems to me that there are
numerous apparently racist extracts from Steiner's writings and lectures
which have not been forged by Peter Staudenmaier. It may be possible to
construct plausible interpretaions of some of these that are not racist, but
I do not believe that this is possible for all. This appears to be the only
route to a solution to this problem that could be satisfactory to the DOFs.
I find it troubling that Peter Staudenmaier claims that some more modern
translations have removed some of the more problematic sections in order to
solve this problem. This is also the most difficult for me personally to
deal with because I do not read German, and as a result, I have to rely on
the opinions of others.
At least some of the arguments associated with thread 3 have verified that
some DOFs have no idea what racism is, and that they themselves support
racist ideas.
Thread 4(a) is ridiculous with respect to the charge of forgery and
unproveable with respect to the charge of dishonesty. I won't comment on
4(b) and 4(c). 4(d) might be written as incapable of seeing past the words
to the meaning that ... (insert DOF's name here) believes to be the correct
one.
I wonder where you are at with this, Walden. I haven't seen any discussion
of any of the extracts that you draw attention to that might lead me to
believe they are not as racist as they appear. My view is that these
extracts are simply more examples of things about which Steiner was wrong.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 23:55:51 -0700
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Race...
Hi Peter,
I've been trying to find common ground with *everyone* while not wanting to
ignore my own feelings. At some point this approach starts to fall apart
and your thoughtful post here points to that breakdown. I've been bending
over so many times in order to attempt to understand some of the Anthro
folks at the anthroposophy tomorrow list that I now feel like a pretzel.
Yes, I am very conscious of not wanting to dump on anyone's chosen spiritual
path. Also, I have been well trained to understand that many
anthroposophically inclined people tend to take questions, comments and
ideas as personal attacks. This is a huge unnecessary, unfortunate
obstacle, IMO.
You finished your post by asking where I am at with all this...?
I would much rather see real discussion and find truth in more than one side
of an argument but I cannot ignore how disturbing I find much of what I read
from Steiner as well as from many of today's anthroposophists. I think your
observations (below) are honest and perceptive. I am still curious and
willing to learn but I feel sad that much of the discussion ends before it
begins. Yes, I feel sad. Denial, anger and rudeness take the place of
curiosity and a willingness to understand and learn and perhaps even change
ideas. Still, I am grateful that some folks at that list have taken the
time to try to discuss some of the issues - even if much of the discussion
makes little sense to those of us who do not take Steiner's words as the
absolute, undeniable, infallible... truth. I have learned that when he
spoke of higher and lower races, no blacks in Europe, the necessary demise
of First Nations, etc., Steiner actually *meant* something completely
different. If this is true, I wonder why he never spelled out what he
really meant in the first place? Or why would he use words so clearly
racist to describe his spiritual views? So, curious ex-Waldorfers like me
spend time seeking answers to these questions and keep coming up empty.
Thanks for your summary.
-Walden
Peter F. wrote:
G'day Walden,
I have been following at least some of the discussion over at AT as well and
I find it fascinating. My summary of the various threads of the argument
goes somthing like this.
1. It's impossible for anything Steiner wrote or said to be racist because
he was ... (fill in the blanks), hence there is no need to discuss any
extracts from Steiner's lectures or writings as racist or non racist.
2. If an extract is found that is apparently racist then it has been
misunderstood by the reader, the translator and the other translator, or it
has been taken out of context. The only correct context appears to be the
sum total of everything that Steiner wrote or said which is all wonderful
and therefor could not be racist (see 1 above).
3. It is not racist to arrange the races into a hierarchy of spiritual
development, and therefor Steiner's writings are not racist.
4. Staudenmaier is
(a) dishonest and forges and/or deliberately misrepresents Steiner's
writings.
(b) a communist and therefor everything he writes is suspect.
(c) an atheist and therefor everything he writes is suspect.
(d) incapable of seeing past the words to the meaning.
I hope I have not misrepresented what I think are the important threads or
that I have left out a thread which others might think is very important.
The various arguments in support of thread 1 seem to me to be ridiculous.
Thread 2 has some interesting possibilities. It seems to me that there are
numerous apparently racist extracts from Steiner's writings and lectures
which have not been forged by Peter Staudenmaier. It may be possible to
construct plausible interpretaions of some of these that are not racist, but
I do not believe that this is possible for all. This appears to be the only
route to a solution to this problem that could be satisfactory to the DOFs.
I find it troubling that Peter Staudenmaier claims that some more modern
translations have removed some of the more problematic sections in order to
solve this problem. This is also the most difficult for me personally to
deal with because I do not read German, and as a result, I have to rely on
the opinions of others.
At least some of the arguments associated with thread 3 have verified that
some DOFs have no idea what racism is, and that they themselves support
racist ideas.
Thread 4(a) is ridiculous with respect to the charge of forgery and
unproveable with respect to the charge of dishonesty. I won't comment on
4(b) and 4(c). 4(d) might be written as incapable of seeing past the words
to the meaning that ... (insert DOF's name here) believes to be the correct
one.
I wonder where you are at with this, Walden. I haven't seen any discussion
of any of the extracts that you draw attention to that might lead me to
believe they are not as racist as they appear. My view is that these
extracts are simply more examples of things about which Steiner was wrong.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
Get Extra Storage in 10MB, 25MB, 50MB and 100MB options now! Go to
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===========================================================
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Aaron's Thinking Putty in grown up handfuls. It's the
creativity unleashing, mood enhancing desk toy!
http://click.topica.com/caab7pJb1dkiGb2QZUTf/ Crazy Aaron Enterprises
===========================================================
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1315
-- Topica Digest --
Reading instruction in Waldorf (part I)
By diana.winters verizon.net
Reading instruction in Waldorf (part II) - early readers burning out
By diana.winters verizon.net
scientist Steiner or historian Staudenmaier
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: Race...
By feetapparel hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 08:31:06 -0400
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: Reading instruction in Waldorf (part I)
This is part of a dialogue at anthroposophy_tomorrow between myself and a
Waldorf teacher, about reading methods in Waldorf. I hope it makes enough
sense without further editing or further explanations of the context, which
I unfortunately don't have time for this morning, so I'm pasting it in
verbatim.
Patrick asked:
"What is your reference for Rudolf Steiner's supposed statement that
children should not write before 14? Did you mean read before 14?"
(Steiner is explaining his basic method, where children see the letter
evolve from a picture, i.e., the letter "K" from a picture of a king, or the
vowels from eurythmy-related gestures: pe