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RE: that lecture
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: that lecture
By mainquestion1 yahoo.com
Re: that lecture
By mainquestion1 yahoo.com
RE: that lecture
By pkcompany netzero.net
Re: that lecture
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:58:34 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: that lecture
Hi MQ, this is the rest of what I started last night, in reply to your post
-
The desks moving thing -
)Ants in the pants for sure, but when I taught K-8 (as opposed to the g5-8
at )Waldorf) it was 1st, 2d, and 3d grade children practically tackling me
with hugs, )telling me they loved me, asking me if they could come over to
my house and meet )my dog, etc.
Oh yeah, I know and of course that's true; perhaps I was too hard on the
guy. I just got sick of the big ego trip "The children must reverence me" so
many Waldorf teachers are on. I think this feeds into the difficulty dealing
with middle schoolers, this CREATES the preteen monsters you describe IMO.
)It's not that I ever encouraged that sort of thing, either - this is just
how some )of them behave when they're happy, with a teacher they like and
who makes class )fun for them. At the beginning of the year before I
assigned seats, there were )kids pushing each other in order to get to the
seat next to mine. It had nothing )to do with me and I'm sure it wouldn't be
hard to find other teachers with the )same experience. Hard to believe, I
know.
No, I do know what you're saying and from working in the preschools, of
course I know it's an ego boost when they fight over who gets to sit in your
lap etc.
Maybe he was just trying to say that it's natural that they love you
unquestioningly in the early years, and start to question you later. In
which case I agree. I am just cynical on Waldorf because I heard a lot of
such TALK and what I saw happening were two different things.
I'd be willing to bet the class that "turned on" its teacher, in Lemuria's
school, experienced or witnesses students abused by teachers in their early
years - when they were too "self-conscious" to either talk to or be listened
to, in the Waldorf view. If you don't talk to 'em and won't listen to 'em,
and insist on only fairy tales all day long? by the time they are 12 or 13
they are damn angry.
Lemuria told us originally that the class believed their teacher had
"slighted" them. That kind of obvious understatement, obvious minimizing, is
a pretty good clue. They are often not so much "slighted" as completely
disrespected.
)I think the "social being" of a Waldorf class has to do with the
group-think state )of mind that a classroom teacher tries to foster. The
children do everything as a )group - their options for personal expression
almost always are artificially )limited, and individual talents are not
showcased.
I think it's that - those are good points - but I also think they're talking
about an actual spiritual entity. When they talk about "beings" they really
mean it - they mean the class group per se has a corresponding spiritual
"being" out there somewhere who guides it or shadows it so to speak.
Good points about discouraging differences or recognition of talents.
)many kids were absolutely mortified to be singled out for any reason, even
a )compliment.
Someone just said this this morning on SJU - that it is a "harsh experience"
for a child to be singled out, even for praise. IMO this situation also is
created by the teachers and parents who believe it is so. I do not know any
seventh graders who cannot smile and say "Thank you" if an adult says "Nice
job" or "I liked your poem" or some such. Sure, it may be embarrassing for a
moment, and some will shrug and duck away, but it is not slicing up their
soul as Waldorf will have you believe. I wonder if it follows from the "No
introductions" thing? They haven't been taught to reply simply and
courteously. All these things are a BFD because the adults have made it so.
Lemuria's story about the mother who thought seventh graders shouldn't speak
in front of a group blew me away. This is a totally foreign mindset compared
to other schools. My son (a seventh grader) has been speaking in front of
groups for many years.
)Try, just try, to motivate an older student who bristles and turns away
when you )give them a sincere compliment. This is one of those
middleschooler charms in any )school, but I thnk it's worse with Waldorf
kids.
Honestly I am not familiar with this. Maybe we aren't defining "middle
school" the same? What ages do you mean? My son is 12 and in seventh grade.
The faces of his recent classmates flash before me and they are some of the
most gracious and well-spoken young people you could hope to meet. I can't
imagine one of them ""bristling" at a compliment.
I wonder if some of them are bristling at *false* compliments. The kid whom
you refer to, for instance, who's been forced to continue violin when he
hates it and is no good at it? I would imagine compliments rankle and he's
probably very angry.
)she's a fantastic teacher, as good as they come. She also happens to have a
)steady supply of stories that make my hair stand on end because some of
)the students are, um, challenging. It just goes with the territory.
I know. And to be fair my son is in private school, not public, and the
private schools have the luxury of turning away people who they think may
cause any problems. At Quaker schools any history of trouble making
disqualifies you, instantly and permanently. Back to public school you go. I
mean, they're not perfect kids, there are kids on Ritalin, kids with issues,
kids with crises at home that spill over to school, but largely, if you
frighten, threaten, hurt people, or continually disrupt classes, you're
going to end up leaving. And most of these families are *deeply* concerned
with where their kids will go for high school (the school only goes K-8) -
bad behavior reports are the death knell, in terms of acceptance to the
Quaker upper schools. So it's self-selected to a certain extent, unlike
public school. I realize, this is partly why there are fewer hair-raising
stories.
I asked:
)Do you recall if he really used the word "creator"?
)This is megalomania.
)He probably did; I don't think of myself as a megalomaniac but I think I've
used )the phrase "classroom culture" myself before
I'm sorry - I'm sure you are not a megalomaniac. I meant the word "creator"
not "classroom culture." I don't think the teacher is creating the class, or
the social "being" of the class, in any sense.
I agree the teacher is largely responsible for the class "culture," but in
my experience when they say "creator" in Waldorf they REALLY mean creator.
)I imagine it can be a shock to show up to school one day and find that your
)formerly eager, open minded and fresh-faced group of children has turned
into )sour, angry children questioning your every move and mouthing lyrics
to Snoop )Doggy Dogg. Have you heard the words to "Drop It Like It's Hot"?
Maybe I just don't have the familiarity with these settings. I guess my
child is very protected. No - I'm not familiar with that song (and I think
I'll keep it that way). His friends aren't either, to my knowledge.
)What a letdown, to say the least, to discover that 6-7 years of the Waldorf
)coccoon didn't innoculate them from rapper-worship, or at the very least,
protect )them from exposure.
I can understand that it's a let-down, though I can't help shaking my head
at these parents (and teachers). Why in the world would a "Waldorf coccoon"
protect them from rapper-worship? Silk cloths don't *really* have magical
powers. All of this is up to the parents. There is no enchanted fairyland at
a Waldorf school - all there is is hypocrisy. There's a lot going on in
those kids' houses that isn't "Waldorf," and there's a lot of lying going on
- at least there was at our Waldorf school. I probably have a much more
"Waldorf" home than a lot of Waldorfers. (Ramen noodles and all (G)) I don't
have anything against rap music per se, but I do think that my child is not
largely susceptible to all this media influence because WE'RE NOT - his
parents. Or probably we are - we paid a lot for those Rolling Stones tickets
:-(, but we're aware and *talk* of it. *Even* in front of the kid, and from
an early age. That's what it comes from - it comes from home. All the
watercolor painting and eurythmy in the world don't have anything to do with
this, in the end. Does that make sense? Not sure I said it right.
)Remember these folks have been making signifcant adjustments in their
personal )lives (sometimes ranging toward compromise, or sacrifice) in order
to take on the )job of class teacher. Then they find one day that it is,
beyond a shadow of a )doubt, Not Working? I feel sorry for them. Who
*wouldn't* have antipathy.
I totally agree. It's a fine line to say the sorts of things I say about
Waldorf, my comments are very harsh sometimes, and it's hard not appear to
be blaming these individual teachers - and sometimes I *am* blaming
individuals. And obviously they hear mostly everything I say as an attack on
them anyway. I actually do in a sense view the teachers as often nearly as
victimized as the children. I know of some waldorf teachers who were treated
in a way that can only be described as abusive. Deby Snell has been saying
this for years, and taking unhappy Waldorf teachers under her wing. (It's
sort of ironic, the president of PLANS has a lot more sympathy for Waldorf
teachers than a lot of people in Waldorf schools do!)
)("Put that damn ipod away... you saw *what* last night?... How could you
speak to )me like that?")
Why in the world do they have the ipods at school? Surely a Waldorf school
doesn't allow this? The Quaker school sure doesn't. I asked my son about
this last night. He doesn't have an iPod, but lots of kids do, of course.
They can have them in their backpacks or lockers, to use on the bus going
home, but nobody takes them out in class. Same as cell phones. That's just
the school rules, and nobody takes them out in class. I see them come out
the door and take out their phones right away (of course this is a city
school, and these kids are just now being allowed to use the public
transportation and are usually required to check in with a parent by phone
along the route home. Even the kids I drive home often phone a parent from
the car, whom they're about to see 10 minutes later, which I think is sort
of sweet, even tho I know some people think it's terrible, terrible that
they have all these gadgets at all. I think it's nice they are so connected
to their parents.
)I guess it was a breath of fresh air in that chilly place.
)Oh, you have no idea. He actually used *humor*. Check it out: What is the
first )change a Dad notices at home after signing the kids up for Waldorf
school? )BASKETS. Everywhere baskets, multiplying like rabbits.
That's funny, that was a joke in my family too. My son and I still joke
about my basket-buying days. Also candles - I used to buy candles
compulsively, in all sizes and flavors.
)What I was saying was that the Waldorf kids have no choices. There is no
misery )quite like the misery of an eighth grade boy who didn't like and
never had much )success at the violin in the 4th grade and 5th grade to
begin with, still being )forced to hack away at it, and maybe sitting next
to a kid who sincerely likes the )violin, plays well, and twice a week for
40 minutes resents the off-key-hacking )covering up the results of his own
hard work. In their perception, both boys have )lost. Multiply this
scenario times all the required subjects - Spanish, German, )Chorus,
Orchestra, Eurhythmy, Handwork, Woodwork (with the hands, as opposed to
)wood "shop")
Got it. Thanks again, MQ.
Diana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:11:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Pseudonym (mainquestion1 yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: that lecture
I feel uncomfortable reading (now both) Diana's and
Walden's reactions to my report because honestly,
there was nothing about the guy that I would
characterize quite that negatively. If anything
bothered me about his talk, it was the fact that (imo)
he had to dance around his opinions so gingerly. But
given the confrontational nature of his suggestions
and the rigid Waldorf environment, I would rather see
someone come in who speaks the College's language and
who has their stamp of approval before even walking in
the door. I thought: This is the person who will bring
about some change. He was asked to speak by the
parents' association and the event was very well
attended.
Diana, I hope I can someday return to thinking the way
you do about teens. Your son sounds like a sweetheart,
too. Before I was doing most of my teaching at
schools, I had only positive experiences with this age
group, but unfortunately after that my classroom
experiences ruined that for me. When my students had
all sought out my class as a result of personal
interest, they were all wonderful. (I should also say
to you that writing is my therapy, so there's no need
to thank me for posting. I could be paying top dollar
for this elsewhere (g))
I taught at a Catholic school in a really tough (read:
poor) city where (I was told) most of my students had
struggling single parents and at least one of my
students had a parent in jail. These kids were
*angry*. Life had let them down a long time ago. They
resented having to come to my class because they
thought they shouldn't "have to" - and in fact, during
the prior two years when the school didn't *have* a
(mysubject) teacher, they *didn't* have to. It was
playtime before I showed up. Combine this with the
fact that I had recently started some heavy-duty
teacher training,
and I arrived with all kinds of lofty goals for us
all... No wonder the kids were not pleased. Then I
taught at the 10k/yr. Waldorf school in the wealthy
suburb (I was recruited by a friend of a friend to
"help out") and I naively hoped things would be better
there. In some ways, especially with grades 5 and 6,
it was a relief. But the 7ths and 8ths were just as
angry, and tired of having the entire smorgasbord of
what are normally public-school elective subjects
crammed down their throats by force. And the students
assigned to me were the ones who hadn't shown enough
interest or ability in the subject to be skimmed off
the top of the class list onto the class roster of my
subject's department head, who perpetuated the idea
that kids had to be "good enough for" her class.
(First the school forces them to study this material
whether they're interested or not, then the school
segregates the students into two groups - those who
succeeded and those who failed. Good thing Waldorf
doesn't use letter grades! - groan.)
Ok, with that background, does it surprise you that
the concept of 7th and 8th graders "turning on"
teachers wasn't new to me? I have experienced 7th and
8th grade students: using foul language in class,
insulting each other and me, making threats verbally
and physically, telling outrageous lies (I have a
really fun story about this for later!), repeatedly
refusing to follow direction, damaging/stealing school
property,
yelling, and every DAY totally hijacking the class's
attention. At that Catholic school I mentioned, a boy
once cussed and threw a chair at me because I asked
him to leave the room.. At least at the Catholic
school, I had *that* option available to me. At the
Waldorf school, one day a fight broke out between two
of my 8th grade boys - with a fraction of a second
between the emotional spark and the wrestling match on
the floor. *That's* what I mean when I say
"impulsive". If I felt comfortable giving a lot of
detail about some of the positive things we
accomplished, I think you'd probably be amazed. They
*did* eventually learn. It's just a shame that almost
all of the obstacles that I needed to overcome in
order to see that happen were put into my path by the
school, not by the students. The students were
products of their environment. These kids were angry
and defensive walking into my room on the very first
day of class, and no amount of attempts to "work with"
them had any effect. Teacher: "How can we make this
less of a chore for you, and still meet the school's
requirement?" Students: "How about you *just tell
them* you're teaching us (the subject) and then let us
have time off instead." T: "That doesn't work for me.
How about we try (xyz new idea)." S: "No way, that
sucks." ...Worse than that, many of these kids went by
the motto, "You can't make me." Which of course was
completely true. At one point I spoke with a parent
about assigning her son an alternative curriculum that
wouldn't leave him exposed to several temptations that
he had proven himself unable to handle. The parent
dismissed the idea as "punitive". She had no concern
for whether he would succeed or fail in my room - in
her mind, he had to be doing the same assignments the
other kids were doing. (In fact he usually acted to
*prevent* the other kids from doing them.)
It was a nightmare... My Waldorf colleagues told me
that the experience of being forced to take my class
was supposed help students "develop their will." OH,
it developed their will, alright. At (mainstream)
teacher conferences or professional development
workshops, elementary teachers would grab my arm and
say, "OH honey, that's just how these kids *are*. It's
a tough, tough age." (I will never forget the woman
who saw "Waldorf" on my nametag and went out of her
way to vent to me about her former Waldorf students'
behavior.) On a (mysubject) teachers' listserve, the
advice given to public middle school teachers with
unruly 7ths and 8ths usually involves DVDs/videos,
personal incentive plans (and candy), computers, fun
little competitions like races, or pennies-in-the-jar
point-systems where the pennies buy popcorn for a
class popcorn party at the end of the year. We all
know how well the electronics idea would go over... I
had already been publicly busted for giving out candy
(remember that?) and I had already been scolded by my
department-head for something I said in passing to
some kids the previous year, that gave her the (false)
idea that I was fostering competition and hard
feelings among some of the younger students, who
weren't even *my* students then. They were already so
competitive (she said) that there had been incidents
of tears. So -- no friendly competitions. Eventually I
stopped being so concerned. If I hadn't quit, I'm sure
I would have been let go soon enough.
I hope that now it's a little more understandable why
I was so thrilled to hear what this guy had to say,
particularly the words "individualized instruction".
"What, you mean we should let them *choose*?? From
your mouth to the class teachers' ears!" It's the fact
that he wasn't heard that's the problem.
MQ
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:02:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Pseudonym (mainquestion1 yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: that lecture
I wrote that last one before reading Diana's last one
so to answer a couple of questions -
Middle school over here is Gr 6-8.
)If you don't talk to 'em and won't listen to 'em,
)and insist on only fairy tales all day long? by the
time )they are 12 or 13 they are damn angry.
OH yes. Many even before. These ones usually leave.
)I also think they're talking about an actual
spiritual )entity. When they talk about "beings" they
really
)mean it - they mean the class group per se has a
)corresponding spiritual "being" out there somewhere
)who guides it or shadows it so to speak.
I wouldn't know about this, because, you know the way
Gabriel totally ignores my posts when I ask him to
tell me who Ahriman is? That's what I got at school. I
was expected to be totally in the dark because there's
no Anthroposophist varsity "A" on my sweater.
)My son (a seventh grader) has been speaking in front
)of groups for many years.
I heard recently that this was on the list of criteria
followed by Harvard Admissions. A student should be
comfortable speaking to a group. That's great about
your son.
) I wonder if some of them are bristling at *false*
)compliments. The kid whom you refer to, for instance,
)who's been forced to continue violin when he
)hates it and is no good at it? I would imagine
)compliments rankle and he's probably very angry.
Yes, that's part of it. I think the Waldorf kids to
some extent are also expecting me to try to manipulate
them, and in their eyes (justifiably) I'm just another
Great Opressor. The 12 yr olds I know in normal
situations are a lot less likely to bristle but still
I see it... I definitely it has nothing to do with
what the Waldorf folks are talking about though. It's
because parents and teachers are the anti-cool (thanks
to Nickelodeon), and cool is extremely important to
some of them (see Gordon Neufeld, below.)
)I'm sorry - I'm sure you are not a megalomaniac. I
)meant the word "creator"
Oh whoops - sorry, that word-switch was sloppy of me.
To answer your original question, I'm pretty sure he
used the word "creator" or at least some version of it
("works to create the.." "careful creation of...").
)Why in the world do they have the ipods at school?
)Surely a Waldorf school doesn't allow this?
Of course not, but that doesn't mean the kids respect
the rules. Many of the teachers just look the other
way because taking away the ipod (or the shirt with
printed slogan) just isn't worth the short-term
hassle. I used to think that they had so many strict
rules just for the purpose of easing up on them when
it was politically convenient.
)I do think that my child is not largely susceptible
to )all this media influence because WE'RE NOT
Right on. This is exactly what you will find in Gordon
Neufeld's "Hold On To Your Kids" (which is not a
Waldorf book). It's about the phenomenon of "peer
attachment". Kids who don't trust their parents can
feel with a life-or-death urgency that if they don't
live up to (or down to) peer expectations, they're
literally not going to survive in the world. A close
relationship with parents (that is so sweet about the
carpool kids on their cellphones) is the single most
protective factor when it comes to keeping kids off
drugs, etc.
It's scary to think of what can happen to that close
parent-child relationship after 8 years of
triangulation with a classroom teacher who wants to be
just as close, if not closer, to the student.
Shudder.
MQ
Time for me to take a break from posting and catch up
on real life for a while - Happy Halloween!
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 02:01:42 +0000
From: Pete Karaiskos (pkcompany netzero.net)
Subject: RE: that lecture
FWIW, I have the opportunity to hear Petrash lecture over the weekend.
I wasn't going to go, but maybe now I will. If I do, I'll add my 2c.
Pete
Pseudonym wrote:
)
) I wrote that last one before reading Diana's last one
) so to answer a couple of questions -
)
) Middle school over here is Gr 6-8.
)
) )If you don't talk to 'em and won't listen to 'em,
) )and insist on only fairy tales all day long? by the
) time )they are 12 or 13 they are damn angry.
)
) OH yes. Many even before. These ones usually leave.
)
) )I also think they're talking about an actual
) spiritual )entity. When they talk about "beings" they
) really
) )mean it - they mean the class group per se has a
) )corresponding spiritual "being" out there somewhere
) )who guides it or shadows it so to speak.
)
) I wouldn't know about this, because, you know the way
) Gabriel totally ignores my posts when I ask him to
) tell me who Ahriman is? That's what I got at school. I
) was expected to be totally in the dark because there's
) no Anthroposophist varsity "A" on my sweater.
)
) )My son (a seventh grader) has been speaking in front
) )of groups for many years.
)
) I heard recently that this was on the list of criteria
) followed by Harvard Admissions. A student should be
) comfortable speaking to a group. That's great about
) your son.
)
) ) I wonder if some of them are bristling at *false*
) )compliments. The kid whom you refer to, for instance,
) )who's been forced to continue violin when he
) )hates it and is no good at it? I would imagine
) )compliments rankle and he's probably very angry.
)
) Yes, that's part of it. I think the Waldorf kids to
) some extent are also expecting me to try to manipulate
) them, and in their eyes (justifiably) I'm just another
) Great Opressor. The 12 yr olds I know in normal
) situations are a lot less likely to bristle but still
) I see it... I definitely it has nothing to do with
) what the Waldorf folks are talking about though. It's
) because parents and teachers are the anti-cool (thanks
) to Nickelodeon), and cool is extremely important to
) some of them (see Gordon Neufeld, below.)
)
) )I'm sorry - I'm sure you are not a megalomaniac. I
) )meant the word "creator"
)
) Oh whoops - sorry, that word-switch was sloppy of me.
) To answer your original question, I'm pretty sure he
) used the word "creator" or at least some version of it
) ("works to create the.." "careful creation of...").
)
) )Why in the world do they have the ipods at school?
) )Surely a Waldorf school doesn't allow this?
)
) Of course not, but that doesn't mean the kids respect
) the rules. Many of the teachers just look the other
) way because taking away the ipod (or the shirt with
) printed slogan) just isn't worth the short-term
) hassle. I used to think that they had so many strict
) rules just for the purpose of easing up on them when
) it was politically convenient.
)
) )I do think that my child is not largely susceptible
) to )all this media influence because WE'RE NOT
)
) Right on. This is exactly what you will find in Gordon
) Neufeld's "Hold On To Your Kids" (which is not a
) Waldorf book). It's about the phenomenon of "peer
) attachment". Kids who don't trust their parents can
) feel with a life-or-death urgency that if they don't
) live up to (or down to) peer expectations, they're
) literally not going to survive in the world. A close
) relationship with parents (that is so sweet about the
) carpool kids on their cellphones) is the single most
) protective factor when it comes to keeping kids off
) drugs, etc.
)
) It's scary to think of what can happen to that close
) parent-child relationship after 8 years of
) triangulation with a classroom teacher who wants to be
) just as close, if not closer, to the student.
) Shudder.
)
) MQ
)
) Time for me to take a break from posting and catch up
) on real life for a while - Happy Halloween!
)
)
)
)
)
) __________________________________
) Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
) http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 01:00:44 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: that lecture
Interesting - thanks for your posts, MQ.
MQ wrote:
) I feel uncomfortable reading (now both) Diana's and
) Walden's reactions to my report because honestly,
) there was nothing about the guy that I would
) characterize quite that negatively.
It's not so much as "negative" as it is contrary to what I believe to be a
healthy
way for a teacher to view students - or for that matter for one human being
to view and interact with another human being.
MQ previously wrote:
)Remember, these kids don't exactly volunteer to sit in the classroom.
Now some listmembers might know that I have a problem with mandatory
institutionalized "education" of any flavour - Waldorf, Whatever . . . .
What made me feel queasy, however, was not simply the idea of compulsory
"education" (I am used to that feeling!) but the concept of a Waldorf
"educator" thinking he can *form a class* (think about that expression for a
minute) to fit a particular mold developed by a turn of the century
occultist from Europe.
While I accept that many kids have no trouble (and even thrive) in a more
structured educational setting - when they choose to take that path - the
*creator of the social being* bit is creepy, though very Waldorf.
Problem. First, many parents have no idea what happens in Waldorf teacher
training. Second, many Waldorf schools are scrambling over each other
searching for teachers - a recognized teaching certificate is not always
required while a "relationship to Anthroposophy" will land you the job. What
does that mean? Well, if you need to ask the question, you are not ready for
the answer. Etc.
And the spiritually striving teacher might end up spending EIGHT years with
a group of young people - forming *the group* into the teacher's version of
an Anthroposophically correct social being.
)He said we need to allow teenage students to express their individuality
and their differentness from us.
And he would be parroting Steiner in that respect. Better not try that trick
with a grade two class, though. Who does he think he is to "allow" a teenage
student to express his or her individuality? Megalomania pure and simple,
imo. How about the concept that EVERY human being is different individual
and deserves the SAME respect - regardless of labels like "teenage student?"
Blind leading the blind? Maybe not - kids can see well at a early age.
Ignorant leading the innocent is perhaps more apt. So why would students
revolt?
Because maybe they realize the foundation of their institution is
revolt-ing.
-Walden
If anything
) bothered me about his talk, it was the fact that (imo)
) he had to dance around his opinions so gingerly. But
) given the confrontational nature of his suggestions
) and the rigid Waldorf environment, I would rather see
) someone come in who speaks the College's language and
) who has their stamp of approval before even walking in
) the door. I thought: This is the person who will bring
) about some change. He was asked to speak by the
) parents' association and the event was very well
) attended.
)
) Diana, I hope I can someday return to thinking the way
) you do about teens. Your son sounds like a sweetheart,
) too. Before I was doing most of my teaching at
) schools, I had only positive experiences with this age
) group, but unfortunately after that my classroom
) experiences ruined that for me. When my students had
) all sought out my class as a result of personal
) interest, they were all wonderful. (I should also say
) to you that writing is my therapy, so there's no need
) to thank me for posting. I could be paying top dollar
) for this elsewhere (g))
)
) I taught at a Catholic school in a really tough (read:
) poor) city where (I was told) most of my students had
) struggling single parents and at least one of my
) students had a parent in jail. These kids were
) *angry*. Life had let them down a long time ago. They
) resented having to come to my class because they
) thought they shouldn't "have to" - and in fact, during
) the prior two years when the school didn't *have* a
) (mysubject) teacher, they *didn't* have to. It was
) playtime before I showed up. Combine this with the
) fact that I had recently started some heavy-duty
) teacher training,
) and I arrived with all kinds of lofty goals for us
) all... No wonder the kids were not pleased. Then I
) taught at the 10k/yr. Waldorf school in the wealthy
) suburb (I was recruited by a friend of a friend to
) "help out") and I naively hoped things would be better
) there. In some ways, especially with grades 5 and 6,
) it was a relief. But the 7ths and 8ths were just as
) angry, and tired of having the entire smorgasbord of
) what are normally public-school elective subjects
) crammed down their throats by force. And the students
) assigned to me were the ones who hadn't shown enough
) interest or ability in the subject to be skimmed off
) the top of the class list onto the class roster of my
) subject's department head, who perpetuated the idea
) that kids had to be "good enough for" her class.
) (First the school forces them to study this material
) whether they're interested or not, then the school
) segregates the students into two groups - those who
) succeeded and those who failed. Good thing Waldorf
) doesn't use letter grades! - groan.)
)
) Ok, with that background, does it surprise you that
) the concept of 7th and 8th graders "turning on"
) teachers wasn't new to me? I have experienced 7th and
) 8th grade students: using foul language in class,
) insulting each other and me, making threats verbally
) and physically, telling outrageous lies (I have a
) really fun story about this for later!), repeatedly
) refusing to follow direction, damaging/stealing school
) property,
) yelling, and every DAY totally hijacking the class's
) attention. At that Catholic school I mentioned, a boy
) once cussed and threw a chair at me because I asked
) him to leave the room.. At least at the Catholic
) school, I had *that* option available to me. At the
) Waldorf school, one day a fight broke out between two
) of my 8th grade boys - with a fraction of a second
) between the emotional spark and the wrestling match on
) the floor. *That's* what I mean when I say
) "impulsive". If I felt comfortable giving a lot of
) detail about some of the positive things we
) accomplished, I think you'd probably be amazed. They
) *did* eventually learn. It's just a shame that almost
) all of the obstacles that I needed to overcome in
) order to see that happen were put into my path by the
) school, not by the students. The students were
) products of their environment. These kids were angry
) and defensive walking into my room on the very first
) day of class, and no amount of attempts to "work with"
) them had any effect. Teacher: "How can we make this
) less of a chore for you, and still meet the school's
) requirement?" Students: "How about you *just tell
) them* you're teaching us (the subject) and then let us
) have time off instead." T: "That doesn't work for me.
) How about we try (xyz new idea)." S: "No way, that
) sucks." ...Worse than that, many of these kids went by
) the motto, "You can't make me." Which of course was
) completely true. At one point I spoke with a parent
) about assigning her son an alternative curriculum that
) wouldn't leave him exposed to several temptations that
) he had proven himself unable to handle. The parent
) dismissed the idea as "punitive". She had no concern
) for whether he would succeed or fail in my room - in
) her mind, he had to be doing the same assignments the
) other kids were doing. (In fact he usually acted to
) *prevent* the other kids from doing them.)
)
) It was a nightmare... My Waldorf colleagues told me
) that the experience of being forced to take my class
) was supposed help students "develop their will." OH,
) it developed their will, alright. At (mainstream)
) teacher conferences or professional development
) workshops, elementary teachers would grab my arm and
) say, "OH honey, that's just how these kids *are*. It's
) a tough, tough age." (I will never forget the woman
) who saw "Waldorf" on my nametag and went out of her
) way to vent to me about her former Waldorf students'
) behavior.) On a (mysubject) teachers' listserve, the
) advice given to public middle school teachers with
) unruly 7ths and 8ths usually involves DVDs/videos,
) personal incentive plans (and candy), computers, fun
) little competitions like races, or pennies-in-the-jar
) point-systems where the pennies buy popcorn for a
) class popcorn party at the end of the year. We all
) know how well the electronics idea would go over... I
) had already been publicly busted for giving out candy
) (remember that?) and I had already been scolded by my
) department-head for something I said in passing to
) some kids the previous year, that gave her the (false)
) idea that I was fostering competition and hard
) feelings among some of the younger students, who
) weren't even *my* students then. They were already so
) competitive (she said) that there had been incidents
) of tears. So -- no friendly competitions. Eventually I
) stopped being so concerned. If I hadn't quit, I'm sure
) I would have been let go soon enough.
)
) I hope that now it's a little more understandable why
) I was so thrilled to hear what this guy had to say,
) particularly the words "individualized instruction".
) "What, you mean we should let them *choose*?? From
) your mouth to the class teachers' ears!" It's the fact
) that he wasn't heard that's the problem.
)
) MQ
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
) __________________________________
) Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
) http://farechase.yahoo.com
)
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1963
-- Topica Digest --
RE: that lecture
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: that lecture
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: that lecture
By diana.winters verizon.net
rewards etc
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: incentives/was "that lecture"
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: rewards etc
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: incentives/was "that lecture"
By ldenike aol.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 07:51:25 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: that lecture
I wrote:
)we were informed he'd be penalized if we DIDN'T take Pizza Hut up on their
)kind offer!!! We HAD to visit Pizza Hut to claim his prizes, or he'd be
)marked as having failed to complete the "assignment"!!!
Walden:
)Please tell me this is incorrect. This is incredible and not really off
)topic as that sort of "incentive" would make me consider something like
)Waldorf as an option - despite the obvious shortcomings.
LOL - yeah, that was my point - this sort of thing is exactly why people run
screaming from the public schools. And yet, my point was also that we are a
small minority. Most families did not have a problem with the Pizza Hut
thing, I assure you! Most thought it was great. (I personally am
particularly set on edge by "incentives" to read. That sort of thing just so
totally misses the point, in terms of getting kids to WANT to read and LIKE
to read, that it makes me want to cry.)
Now in terms of our child's school history, remember that this was
POST-Waldorf for us. It's been a long road, and I admit - there have been
occasions I wondered if it was a mistake to leave Waldorf, after all.
TV Turnoff -
)Wow. I understand the intention but the assumption that many families *do
)not* talk to each other for 51 weeks of each year (because of TV) is . . .
)probably more damaging to kids than watching Monday Night Football or
)cartoons from time to time. Perhaps your son could write a school report
)explaining how he feels about the questions in the first place? "My family
)talks to each other every day and I resent the implication that we can only
)talk during a predetermined, artificial "TV Turn-off Week. My grades should
)not be affected by such silliness." Something like that (g)
Yeah . . . but it was one of those "pick your battles" things. I know for
some people here it may be hard to believe, but I try not to fight the
school. In the case of National TV Turn-off Week, the *school* didn't write
those materials - it is a big national organized thing and all of that stuff
is prepackaged - the group gets funding partly according to high
participation rates - you get the picture. We weren't the only ones annoyed,
and they ended up telling us just to fill in the form quickly with
"activities" like "Went bowling" and that would "count" - they just needed
him to "officially" participate in TV Turnoff . . .
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 07:59:09 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: that lecture
MQ wrote:
)Diana, re your Pizza Hut experience, I heard that the Girl Scouts clubs are
)now offering a merit badge in "fashion". To get the badge, girls have to go
)to the mall
Heaven knows, without an "incentive," teenage girls would never want to go
to the mall (sarcasm)
)(I think to a specific store, maybe The Limited?)
that's probably because the clothes at The Limited don't fit any female over
age 14.
)and fill out a questionairre or something... then they're given a packet of
)coupons specifically targeted toward tween girls. (As if that weren't bad
)enough, to marketing researchers the "tween" age begins at 8.)
Well, at least the Scouts are clear on their values: Stand tall and proud
against atheism and homosexuality, and always encourage shopping.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:02:28 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: that lecture
I wrote:
)Well, at least the Scouts are clear on their values: Stand tall and proud
)against atheism and homosexuality, and always encourage shopping.
And thinking of Lisa's piece yesterday about the Spiral Scouts, who seem to
have been formed partly as a reaction to the Scouts' condemnation of
atheism, it's sort of ironic that atheists seem to often pave the way for
*other* people's religious liberties.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:19:03 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: rewards etc
I meant to reply to Lisa yesterday but seem to have lost that post
completely. I agree with you in general, Lisa. I'm not of the (Walden)
school of thought (G) that intrinsic motivation is going to work for
everything, or that any time a kid doesn't want to deal with a particular
subject, it's fine to drop it. I agree with you and I think we all
appreciate a gold star now and then, recognition, rewards, applause . . . I
know I do. I know I feel a special warmth toward clients who've praised my
services highly, as opposed to those who merely write me a check when they
get my invoice. And, I think more to the point in terms of where this
discussion started, MQ has mentioned a few times that she (and many
teachers) have had to rely on reward systems to deal with otherwise totally
unmanageable classes. In my personal opinion it's better to resort to
rewards than to give up on these kids, and the teacher doesn't have the
option to reform the entire system she's working in - and practically,
speaking, whether we like it or not, most of the kids don't have the option
not to be there - at least not till they're 16. They don't have parents like
Walden who will work something else out, somehow, if school sucks. With kids
who are simply not going to respond any other way, I think there is no harm
done rewarding them. What's the option? *Not* rewarding them? In a sense
they're saying, g*ddamn it I deserve a few rewards simply for putting up
with this whole school thing - and maybe they're right. And that buys them
off, so the few who *do* want to learn in the class have the peace and quiet
to do so.
Diana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:36:31 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: incentives/was "that lecture"
Lisa wrote:
)I would posit that most good teachers in most good schools (from expensive
)private Quaker academies such as the one Diana's son attends to the urban,
)public, arts magnet high school my older daughter attends to everything in
)between) know this and use the notion judiciously.
Just for a contrast, I wonder if there is even more of this outside the
United States. Our Mexican exchange student last year, who attended a very
elite private school near Mexico City, I remember thinking he was incredibly
disciplined and organized, much more so than my child. He kept careful track
of his money and his clothes (he would inform me he'd put four undershirts
into the wash and had only gotten back three; could I please check for the
missing undershirt - he even MATCHED HIS SOCKS, a concept my child seemingly
cannot understand) and one day he explained to me that the teachers were
checking all these things and using a complicated demerit system for any
infractions. He was going to be assigned pages of extra math if he made even
small arithemetical errors in logging his money etc. They had an
unbelievable system of rewards and punishments regulating small details of
behavior.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:39:27 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: rewards etc
Not really wanting to seek and destroy an argument but . . . (g)
I'd like to make sure my own thoughts have not been misconstrued here.
Diana wrote:
)I meant to reply to Lisa yesterday but seem to have lost that post
)completely. I agree with you in general, Lisa. I'm not of the (Walden)
)school of thought (G) that intrinsic motivation is going to work for
)everything, or that any time a kid doesn't want to deal with a particular
)subject, it's fine to drop it. I agree with you and I think we all
)appreciate a gold star now and then, recognition, rewards, applause . . . I
)know I do. I know I feel a special warmth toward clients who've praised my
)services highly, as opposed to those who merely write me a check when they
)get my invoice.
I am not saying that a gold star, etc. is bad, per se. BUT, if any human
being receives a "reward" for acting *against*
his/her beliefs or for "accomplishing" some irrelevant task, what is the
real lesson being learned? Imo, the child (in this case) is learning how
to yield to authority - to cave in and "feel good" about the gold star as
opposed to feeling connected to their own ideals and values. Diana feels
good
about a client who praises her services highly and that is a worthy feeling.
Would you, Diana, feel as good if the praise was for "work" you did not
value and had no interest in AT ALL? What would be the point of such praise
other than to point directly to the very real dynamic of power and class?
Think from a young child's perspective for a moment. Extrapolate:
The gold star (as a child) might become the gold bar (as an adult) or the
extra $10 k per year or the stocks-as-reward for "good work." What is the
work all about? Is it something the person feels "good" about or is it a
means to an end (gold star/$$)?
Friendly Missile from Walden Pond: I wonder if this dynamic is at least
partially responsible for the decay in "modern" society? The widening gap
between rich and poor? The exploitation of women and children in factories
to feed human greed? Destruction of environment? Make a buck for the sake of
making a buck . . . at the expense of natural and human resources around
the globe (example: rainforest and sweat shops)? I wonder if people - from
an early age - were afforded the freedom to learn without external
pressure/curricula/gold stars . . . people would feel more connected to
their passions and we could all just simply get along with each other and
other species?
I wonder.
-Walden
Diana wrote:
And, I think more to the point in terms of where this
discussion started, MQ has mentioned a few times that she (and many
teachers) have had to rely on reward systems to deal with otherwise totally
unmanageable classes. In my personal opinion it's better to resort to
rewards than to give up on these kids, and the teacher doesn't have the
option to reform the entire system she's working in - and practically,
speaking, whether we like it or not, most of the kids don't have the option
not to be there - at least not till they're 16. They don't have parents like
Walden who will work something else out, somehow, if school sucks. With kids
who are simply not going to respond any other way, I think there is no harm
done rewarding them. What's the option? *Not* rewarding them? In a sense
they're saying, g*ddamn it I deserve a few rewards simply for putting up
with this whole school thing - and maybe they're right. And that buys them
off, so the few who *do* want to learn in the class have the peace and quiet
to do so.
Diana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 20:56:50 -0500
From: ldenike aol.com
Subject: Re: incentives/was "that lecture"
Diana, this sounds so familiar. Our family hosted a Mexican exchange student (middle school aged) some 30+ years ago, and Pepe had similar habits. He was very meticulous about everything, from the way he made his bed to how his clothing was kept, etc. It was how he learned to care for things.
Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Winters (Diana.Winters verizon.net)
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Sent: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:36:31 -0500
Subject: RE: incentives/was "that lecture"
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Lisa wrote:
)I would posit that most good teachers in most good schools (from expensive
)private Quaker academies such as the one Diana's son attends to the urban,
)public, arts magnet high school my older daughter attends to everything in
)between) know this and use the notion judiciously.
Just for a contrast, I wonder if there is even more of this outside the
United States. Our Mexican exchange student last year, who attended a very
elite private school near Mexico City, I remember thinking he was incredibly
disciplined and organized, much more so than my child. He kept careful track
of his money and his clothes (he would inform me he'd put four undershirts
into the wash and had only gotten back three; could I please check for the
missing undershirt - he even MATCHED HIS SOCKS, a concept my child seemingly
cannot understand) and one day he explained to me that the teachers were
checking all these things and using a complicated demerit system for any
infractions. He was going to be assigned pages of extra math if he made even
small arithemetical errors in logging his money etc. They had an
unbelievable system of rewards and punishments regulating small details of
behavior.
Diana
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You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
threads are always welcome.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1965
-- Topica Digest --
Re: that lecture
By ldenike aol.com
RE: rewards etc
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: that lecture
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: incentives/was "that lecture"
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: rewards etc
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: incentives/was "that lecture"
By ldenike aol.com
Re: that lecture
By ldenike aol.com
Re: incentives/was "that lecture"
By exnyers comcast.net
RE: incentives/was "that lecture"
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: incentives/was "that lecture"
By ldenike aol.com
Re: incentives/was "that lecture"
By ldenike aol.com
RE: that lecture
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: incentives/was "that lecture"
By diana.winters verizon.net
RE: incentives/was "that lecture"
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: rewards etc
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: that lecture
By mainquestion1 yahoo.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 12:08:49 -0500
From: ldenike aol.com
Subject: Re: that lecture
Diana, you are mixing up the Boy Scouts of America, which have come out publicly against homosexuality and do have a religious point of view, and the Girl Scouts of America, which, to my knowledge, have *never* made any statements about homosexuality, etc.
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Winters (Diana.Winters verizon.net)
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Sent: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 07:59:09 -0500
Subject: RE: that lecture
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MQ wrote:
)Diana, re your Pizza Hut experience, I heard that the Girl Scouts clubs are
)now offering a merit badge in "fashion". To get the badge, girls have to go
)to the mall
Heaven knows, without an "incentive," teenage girls would never want to go
to the mall (sarcasm)
)(I think to a specific store, maybe The Limited?)
that's probably because the clothes at The Limited don't fit any female over
age 14.
)and fill out a questionairre or something... then they're given a packet of
)coupons specifically targeted toward tween girls. (As if that weren't bad
)enough, to marketing researchers the "tween" age begins at 8.)
Well, at least the Scouts are clear on their values: Stand tall and proud
against atheism and homosexuality, and always encourage shopping.
Diana
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 12:38:15 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: rewards etc
Hi Walden,
Rather than reply at great length as you know I was just about to do (G)
maybe I'll ask you a couple of questions first. I do fear we may roam off
topic for this list, though . . . and remember I was basically agreeing that
these practices are not ideal - I'd consider them a bandaid on a serious
wound, essentially - My question is, What advice do you have for the teacher
in the situations MQ has described? What can she do? Do you just think she
should quit because the system it is hopeless? Or how could she this class?
What kind of teacher would reach these kids? Is the only answer, they
shouldn't have to go if they don't want to?
And answer this, if you will - not meaning that to sound like a challenge :)
assuming that these kids do not have YOU at home to bounce their experiences
off of and process things with, and they cannot quit if it sucks . . .
Diana
)I am not saying that a gold star, etc. is bad, per se. BUT, if any human
)being receives a "reward" for acting *against* his/her beliefs or for
)"accomplishing" some irrelevant task, what is the real lesson being
)learned? Imo, the child (in this case) is learning how to yield to
)authority - to cave in and "feel good" about the gold star as opposed to
)feeling connected to their own ideals and values. Diana feels good about a
)client who praises her services highly and that is a worthy feeling. Would
)you, Diana, feel as good if the praise was for "work" you did not value and
)had no interest in AT ALL? What would be the point of such praise other
)than to point directly to the very real dynamic of power and class? Think
)from a young child's perspective for a moment.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 12:41:36 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: that lecture
Lisa:
)Diana, you are mixing up the Boy Scouts of America, which have come out
)publicly against homosexuality and do have a religious point of view, and
)the Girl Scouts of America, which, to my knowledge, have *never* made any
)statements about homosexuality, etc.
Oh. Could be. However, note that the Boy Scouts don't just "have a religious
point of view"; if I'm not mistaken they kicked out a kid who was openly
atheist, and he sued them, didn't he? Or am I mixing this up with something?
I don't know as much about the Girl Scouts, and I don't know what their
connection to the Boy Scouts is, if any, but I'm guessing they operate in
much the same way? Maybe you know if your girls have done Scouts.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 12:50:18 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: incentives/was "that lecture"
)Diana, this sounds so familiar. Our family hosted a Mexican exchange
)student (middle school aged) some 30+ years ago, and Pepe had similar
)habits. He was very meticulous about everything, from the way he made his
)bed to how his clothing was kept, etc. It was how he learned to care for
)things.
Yes - meticulous, and achieved through rewards and punishments. And I can't
help thinking about what a very warm and loving family they were, too. And
there was certainly no evidence being raised this way had dampened his
spirits - he is a *very* lively and seemingly very happy boy.
Perhaps it is the greater influence of the mother. Another thing that really
struck me with him was that he was buying endless gifts for his sister. He
had bought her about 10 things, from clothes to jewelry and souvenirs
everywhere we went, and we were in another store and he said "I still need
something for my sister." Not wanting to interfere but curious, I said,
"Haven't you already gotten your sister [this, this and this]?" and he said,
"Yes, but my mother said I must bring MANY gifts for my sister. She said not
to come home if I don't bring many gifts for my sister."
This shocked me, in a way - don't come home if you don't bring enough
gifts?! as it sounded extremely harsh from our point of view. That's quite a
threat. I still don't know quite what to make of it, but according to all
reports (my son stayed with the family), his mother was a *very* warm and
nurturing person. It is just a different culture. Pleasing his mother and
sister was extremely important to him. (He had even more gifts for his
mother.) I guess we are off topic, somewhat, but on the general topic of use
of rewards or punishments in child rearing.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 12:53:54 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: rewards etc
I wrote:
)What advice do you have for the teacher in the situations MQ has described?
What can she do? Do you just think she should quit because the system it is
hopeless? Or how could she this class?
That was supposed to say "How could she teach this class?" (The sentence
preceding it is screwy too, but hopefully you know what it meant.)
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 13:43:38 -0500
From: ldenike aol.com
Subject: Re: incentives/was "that lecture"
The exchange sounds like it was fascinating for both you and Jake, Diana. I am guessing that your exchange student's mother did not mean to really imply that her son could not come home if he did not bring many gifts for his sister. I think she probably just meant that the boy should realize that he had been on a great adventure (the exchange) and that he could share that adventure (and, frankly, "Make up" for the sister not having an equal adventure) by bringing her things from America.
I agree completely that there are cultural differences at play here, particularly, the increased role on pleasing the mom. Sounds good to me!
Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Winters (Diana.Winters verizon.net)
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Sent: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 12:50:18 -0500
Subject: RE: incentives/was "that lecture"
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)Diana, this sounds so familiar. Our family hosted a Mexican exchange
)student (middle school aged) some 30+ years ago, and Pepe had similar
)habits. He was very meticulous about everything, from the way he made his
)bed to how his clothing was kept, etc. It was how he learned to care for
)things.
Yes - meticulous, and achieved through rewards and punishments. And I can't
help thinking about what a very warm and loving family they were, too. And
there was certainly no evidence being raised this way had dampened his
spirits - he is a *very* lively and seemingly very happy boy.
Perhaps it is the greater influence of the mother. Another thing that really
struck me with him was that he was buying endless gifts for his sister. He
had bought her about 10 things, from clothes to jewelry and souvenirs
everywhere we went, and we were in another store and he said "I still need
something for my sister." Not wanting to interfere but curious, I said,
"Haven't you already gotten your sister [this, this and this]?" and he said,
"Yes, but my mother said I must bring MANY gifts for my sister. She said not
to come home if I don't bring many gifts for my sister."
This shocked me, in a way - don't come home if you don't bring enough
gifts?! as it sounded extremely harsh from our point of view. That's quite a
threat. I still don't know quite what to make of it, but according to all
reports (my son stayed with the family), his mother was a *very* warm and
nurturing person. It is just a different culture. Pleasing his mother and
sister was extremely important to him. (He had even more gifts for his
mother.) I guess we are off topic, somewhat, but on the general topic of use
of rewards or punishments in child rearing.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 13:39:34 -0500
From: ldenike aol.com
Subject: Re: that lecture
You are right: I did a bad job choosing my words. The Boy Scouts of America *are* a religious organization. Boy Scouts have to take a pledge that they will be clean, kind, reverent, etc. I know something about them because a longtime friend of mine was an Eagle Scout himself, and another friend from high school is a Scouting professional. My nephew is a Boy Scout and his mother is a den leader. I have to admit that all of my (admittedly peripheral) encounters with Scouts have been positive: the people I know who are involved are just very nice people and none of them is what I would call a muscular Christian. I personally would not choose to have my son involved (if I had a son) because I would not want my child involved in a group that excluded atheists or gay people. On the other hand, I do believe that if a private organization (one that does not receive public funds) chooses to limit its membership to those with a certain ideological bent, that's their perogative. (I feel the same way about other clubs that want to limit their membership to women only or to men only, etc. I don't agree with that point of view personally, and wouldn't join one of them, even if I was eligible and part of the "accepted" group. But I also think they have a right to choose who they want to associate with.)
No, my girls are not Girl Scouts. I was a Girl Scout back in the day when all we did was to make Sit-Upons and greeting cards for people in old age homes. We camped once a year. I did not encourage my girls to sign up because I loathe camping. I cannot be separated from my hot shower and blow dryer even for one night.
But I do understand, from friends who have kids in Girl Scouts, that the GSA is very much more tolerant of homosexuality than are the Boy Scouts.
Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Winters (Diana.Winters verizon.net)
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Sent: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 12:41:36 -0500
Subject: RE: that lecture
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Lisa:
)Diana, you are mixing up the Boy Scouts of America, which have come out
)publicly against homosexuality and do have a religious point of view, and
)the Girl Scouts of America, which, to my knowledge, have *never* made any
)statements about homosexuality, etc.
Oh. Could be. However, note that the Boy Scouts don't just "have a religious
point of view"; if I'm not mistaken they kicked out a kid who was openly
atheist, and he sued them, didn't he? Or am I mixing this up with something?
I don't know as much about the Girl Scouts, and I don't know what their
connection to the Boy Scouts is, if any, but I'm guessing they operate in
much the same way? Maybe you know if your girls have done Scouts.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:47:17 -0500
From: "Erick & Kim" (exnyers comcast.net)
Subject: Re: incentives/was "that lecture"
Lisa:
)Diana, this sounds so familiar. Our family hosted a Mexican exchange
)student (middle school aged) some 30+ years ago, and Pepe had similar
)habits. He was very meticulous about everything, from the way he made his
)bed to how his clothing was kept, etc. It was how he learned to care for
)things.
Diana:
Yes - meticulous, and achieved through rewards and punishments. And I can't
help thinking about what a very warm and loving family they were, too. And
there was certainly no evidence being raised this way had dampened his
spirits - he is a *very* lively and seemingly very happy boy.
------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't had time to reply to ANYTHING lately, but I don't really think this is a strong example of rewards and punishments or incentives. My husband was born and raised in Guatemala (similar culture to Mexico) and came to live in the US when he was 17. I believe from what I know of him that it's really more about not having the excess that we have in the US and cherishing those things that one has. He didn't grow up poor, nor were they wealthy, but they appreciated (still do) what they have. Things just don't come as easy to kids in Central America as they do for American kids.
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 14:27:25 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: incentives/was "that lecture"
Lisa:
)I am guessing that your exchange student's mother did not mean to really
)imply that her son could not come home if he did not bring many gifts for
)his sister.
Yes, and it could have been a language barrier. He said she said "not to
come home" but maybe he didn't quite know how to phrase what he was trying
to say. His English was much better than our Spanish, but we had occasional
difficulties.
)I agree completely that there are cultural differences at play here,
)particularly, the increased role on pleasing the mom. Sounds good to me!
I agree - LOL! My son certainly could not relate to this attitude of
"Wherever I go, I will bring my mother many gifts." I hoped some of it would
rub off on him (G)
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 14:30:01 -0500
From: ldenike aol.com
Subject: Re: incentives/was "that lecture"
That's interesting Kim. I can't speak for Diana's exchange student, but ours was from a very, very wealthy family in Mexico City. He had had the best of everything and was very pampered, though also very polite. The photos of his family home were incredible. Servants everywhere, beautiful large rooms, lovely clothing, etc. I am sure that coming into our home (though it was an upper middle class home with five bedrooms, four baths and sitting on three acres of land) was a cultural shock in more ways than one. For one thing, we were not (and are not) Catholic. (We had to arrange for one of our neighbors to take him to Mass.) For another, our family is very informal and casual and his was not.
Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Kim (exnyers comcast.net)
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Sent: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:47:17 -0500
Subject: Re: incentives/was "that lecture"
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Lisa:
)Diana, this sounds so familiar. Our family hosted a Mexican exchange
)student (middle school aged) some 30+ years ago, and Pepe had similar
)habits. He was very meticulous about everything, from the way he made his
)bed to how his clothing was kept, etc. It was how he learned to care for
)things.
Diana:
Yes - meticulous, and achieved through rewards and punishments. And I can't
help thinking about what a very warm and loving family they were, too. And
there was certainly no evidence being raised this way had dampened his
spirits - he is a *very* lively and seemingly very happy boy.
------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't had time to reply to ANYTHING lately, but I don't really think this is
a strong example of rewards and punishments or incentives. My husband was born
and raised in Guatemala (similar culture to Mexico) and came to live in the US
when he was 17. I believe from what I know of him that it's really more about
not having the excess that we have in the US and cherishing those things that
one has. He didn't grow up poor, nor were they wealthy, but they appreciated
(still do) what they have. Things just don't come as easy to kids in Central
America as they do for American kids.
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 14:31:27 -0500
From: ldenike aol.com
Subject: Re: incentives/was "that lecture"
Oh, Jake sounds like quite a lovely boy just as he is. He was a sweetie pie back when I met him a few years ago now, and I imagine he hasn't changed much. You guys have done a great job with him. Send me a photo when you get a chance, OK?
Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Winters (Diana.Winters verizon.net)
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Sent: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 14:27:25 -0500
Subject: RE: incentives/was "that lecture"
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Lisa:
)I am guessing that your exchange student's mother did not mean to really
)imply that her son could not come home if he did not bring many gifts for
)his sister.
Yes, and it could have been a language barrier. He said she said "not to
come home" but maybe he didn't quite know how to phrase what he was trying
to say. His English was much better than our Spanish, but we had occasional
difficulties.
)I agree completely that there are cultural differences at play here,
)particularly, the increased role on pleasing the mom. Sounds good to me!
I agree - LOL! My son certainly could not relate to this attitude of
"Wherever I go, I will bring my mother many gifts." I hoped some of it would
rub off on him (G)
Diana
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 14:32:00 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: that lecture
Lisa-
)all of my (admittedly peripheral) encounters with Scouts have been
)positive: the people I know who are involved are just very nice people and
)none of them is what I would call a muscular Christian. I personally would
)not choose to have my son involved (if I had a son) because I would not
)want my child involved in a group that excluded atheists or gay people.
That's my view too. My son has a lot of friends who do Scouts and I've been
relieved he wasn't interested in joining.
)On the other hand, I do believe that if a private organization (one that
)does not receive public funds) chooses to limit its membership to those
)with a certain ideological bent, that's their perogative.
I suppose so. I don't know exactly what I think there - I just think it's a
shame it isn't open to all. It seems to me like the question of whether the
mall is a public place - it isn't, technically, it's all privately owned
property, but courts have ruled that for all intents and purposes a mall
*is* a public place. The Boy Scouts seem to me like they ought to be open to
boys of all faith or no faith. I suppose they have a right to be a
particular religion if they want to be, though.
)No, my girls are not Girl Scouts. I was a Girl Scout back in the day when
)all we did was to make Sit-Upons
Sit-Upons! Hadn't thought of that in years.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 14:36:22 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: incentives/was "that lecture"
Kim:
)I haven't had time to reply to ANYTHING lately, but I don't really think
)this is a strong example of rewards and punishments or incentives.
I don't know. I didn't mean the way he kept track of his socks as a strong
example so much as the "Don't come home without many gifts" thing, but that
may have been a misunderstanding, for all I know.
)My husband was born and raised in Guatemala (similar culture to Mexico) and
)came to live in the US when he was 17. I believe from what I know of him
)that it's really more about not having the excess that we have in the US
)and cherishing those things that one has. He didn't grow up poor, nor were
)they wealthy, but they appreciated (still do) what they have. Things just
)don't come as easy to kids in Central America as they do for American kids.
Could be - good point. Maybe the need to take care simply rubs off on them,
by example, without rewards or punishments, I don't know. *Nothing* will
convince my son to take care of his clothes - he could care less. It's
possible the teachers were being much more strict with them than the parents
would be at home, out of a fear of anything going wrong, etc. A kid away
from home perhaps even feels safer with strict rules, the teacher
threatening to count his socks???? (I'm waiting for Walden to jump on that
one now (G))
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 14:42:33 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: incentives/was "that lecture"
Lisa:
)That's interesting Kim. I can't speak for Diana's exchange student, but
)ours was from a very, very wealthy family in Mexico City.
Ditto. There were a lot of fascinating cultural differences. They also take
much more extreme care with their children's safety than we do - and a lot
of people think Americans are extreme. These kids were never let out of an
adult's sight. They don't play outside after school, and their house looks
like a barricaded compound. Before they came to the US, the parents were
very concerned that we promise the kids are never left home alone. They have
heard that Americans leave their kids home alone. They are very afraid of
kidnappings in and around Mexico City. (It didn't help that there was a
school shooting in our city the week before they came.) They also believed
that all Americans have guns. . .
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 13:49:44 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: rewards etc
Diana wrote:
)Hi Walden,
)Rather than reply at great length as you know I was just about to do (G)
)maybe I'll ask you a couple of questions first. I do fear we may roam off
)topic for this list, though . . . and remember I was basically agreeing
that
)these practices are not ideal - I'd consider them a bandaid on a serious
)wound, essentially - My question is, What advice do you have for the
teacher
)in the situations MQ has described?
Thanks for the questions.
With respect - when a teacher agrees to join a team/ideology/educational
model - in this case Waldorf - the teacher
should come in with an understanding of that model and support the
foundation. It seems Waldorf has a problem not only with parents not
understanding the Waldorf Way, but with new teachers having little
understanding of what the institution expects of them. If those who consider
themselves the leaders of the movement would share with the outside world
(and potential clients/teachers) the reality of what *moves* the movement,
much of MQ's problem might never have happened. My advice: Have every right
to feel upset at being duped just like many other before you. Then, find an
educational model where your own values and teaching techniques will be
accepted and appreciated and . . . just do it.
)What can she do? Do you just think she should quit because the system it is
hopeless?
See above.
Or how could she this class?
??
)What kind of teacher would reach these kids?
I do not know the kids or what Anthro stuff they might have gone through in
their school. Good and/or bad. Perhaps these kids feel patronized by too
many sing-song voices or maybe they just need more time outside or . . . ? I
don't know the dynamics involved. The most honest, caring, sincere teacher
on the planet would have hard time reaching kids in the wrong educational
institution. For example, if I were asked to conduct Sunday School classes
at the local church I doubt I would "reach" the kids at the level expected
by the church. Ask me to coach football and I will absolutely reach many of
the kids.
)Is the only answer, they shouldn't have to go if they don't want to?
Not the only answer but part of the question, for sure. "Do you want to be
there - why do you feel like acting out or misbehaving in class?" That would
be the first question worth asking, imo.
)And answer this, if you will - not meaning that to sound like a challenge
:)
Hey - I love a challenge!
)assuming that these kids do not have YOU at home to bounce their
experiences
)off of and process things with, and they cannot quit if it sucks . . .
Run away and join the circus. OK - while that actually is an option, a more
pragmatic approach is for the kids to find someone they can connect with -
at home, at school, at the gym, etc. If no adult/caregiver is willing to
listen - the problem is very serious and perhaps a social agency might help.
Feeling frustrated and lonely is a horrible thing for anyone - especially a
child. With even a *little* more democracy in education, those feelings
might not need to bubble in kids. When the kids are involved their
education - being included in decision making - those yucky feelings might
never happen and real learning can happen.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 21:10:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Pseudonym (mainquestion1 yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: that lecture
I tried to send the following post about 12 hrs ago
but apparently was having computer problems - with any
luck, this one will work.
--
About the Girl Scouts fashion merit badge, I was just
illustrating how corporations are going to previously
unknown lengths in order to advertise to our children.
They've already started in on church youth groups
too... next it will be 4H. Good grief, they're
everywhere. But you know that.
On the topic of incentives and motivation... The
removal or failure to acquire an incentive can be
interpreted as a punishment... I've been turning the
gears on this one for years and the only thing I can
be sure of is that there's no one-size-fits-all
approach. I hope it is not breaking any rules if I
share an excerpt from a Montessori list that I read.
It refers to a preschool-aged child having trouble
sitting still at circle time, and the child not
wanting to go to circle. There is trouble when a
child's frustration (or boredom) freezes them into a
pattern of not wanting to try, so we teachers need to
make every effort to make it possible for the child
to develop the skills they need - and thus the
*success*, and thus the *desire* that's built on the
foundation of success - as early as possible.
(It was suggested before today that if the class were
to institute a daily "button sewing" time, and the
child was not yet physically or mentally capable of
sewing buttons, the obvious thing would be to isolate
and teach that specific skill to the child in an
engaging, or at least face-saving, way.)
Quote:
)Theoretically, we support the idea of not forcing a
)child to attend lessons against their will. (And I
)agree with this whole-heartedly.) But it is also our
)job to prepare the child to be successful in their
own
)culture (which sometimes means learning how to sit
)through a church meeting or story at the library,
even )if it is a little uncomfortable and not
completely )what they want to do). Ultimately, we are
not serving )them if we only allow our children to
operate in their )comfort zone. We have to entice them
to stretch )themselves beyond what they think they are
capable of. )If you know the girl is not going to be
successful at )sitting through circle (you can see the
writing on the )wall), give her an out. If you can
spare
)your assistant, maybe the child accompany her to a
)supply room that day to carry something (preferably
)heavy to use some excess energy) while you have
)circle time. Once she has had ONE successful circle
)time (do an activity that you know she will LOVE)
then )build on that success. Anytime you see she's not
going )to make it, give her an out. but don't always
make it )fun. Use your judgment, what kind of activity
would )best serve her. If she is
)tired, let her lay down, away from everyone else.
Here is the kernel - "use your judgement". And imo
this other part bears repeating - "Ultimately, we are
not serving them if we only allow our children to
operate in their comfort zone. We have to entice them
to stretch themselves beyond what they think they are
capable of."
There is a very difficult area, one that requires a
lot of judgement, in between "enticing" a child TO
someting and "not allowing" them OUT of something.
Example: I've been in the unfortunate position of
having a class follow-up group activity ruined because
14-yr-old Rudolph's mom said he "didn't have to" go on
the morning field trip with the other kids simply
because he wasn't interested. (And it wasn't related
to Pizza Hut or TV Turnoff. Let's assume there was
nothing inherently wrong with the trip or the follow
up lesson, and the child was not sick, and he would
have otherwise had to show up for school that day, but
he didn't.) Maybe "ruined" is too overdramatic a word.
The activity was very compromised, and the absence
detracted substantially from the spirit of our trip
and the *group* lesson on the next day. Oh, was I
ticked off. But that parent taught me a lesson
(however unkind).
There is a lot of temptation for all of us adults to
say "I know what's best" for each child. More and
more, I'm coming to the conviction that each child
will show us what is the best for them, but it can
take a great deal of wisdom to decipher their message.
Teachers will ideally defer to parents, and parents
will ideally be open to a teacher's point of view, and
one way or the other the child's needs will be met.
What do we do when stubborn, discouraged little Suzie
doesn't want to go to circle time? There's no
immediate consequence assigned to her not going - not
one that the little girl can appreciate, anyway. This
is one of those teaching situations that separates the
wheat from the chaff.
My former W school was so knee-jerk-opposed to
anything bearing the faintest whiff of "punishment"
that my figurative hands were tied behind my back.
Immediate detention? Too punitive. Would the class
teacher please keep someone in for recess? "Sorry MQ,
I forgot and I let him out." Written homework? The
students leaves it "at home." Send him out of class?
There is nowhere to send him. Kids at my former W
school could do (or not do) whatever their little
hearts compelled them to do (or not do). When all
that's left to do is "entice", the students know it.
Witness the incredible shrinking comfort zones and the
rising price of effective enticements.
I'm more than aware that teachers and parents really
CAN'T force a child to do (or think or feel) anything.
We can get the illusion of control by threatening
rewards, "consequences", and (last but not least) all
flavors of emotional manipulation. In some states,
corporal punishment / paddling is still a reality
(sick, I know). But I can tell you for a fact that
those schools still have children who make mistakes,
or don't have the skills necessary to do what's
expected of them, or who just refuse to comply. One
of the most dreaded experiences for any child is to be
ostracized from his/her peer group - being sent out of
the room is a minor example - but there are more and
more kids who just don't care because they're
*already* effectively disconnected from their group.
They have nothing to lose.
Kids suffer when there is no flexibility. Why does
there need to be an arbitrarily set way of teaching or
parenting? We're too hard on them, or too soft.
We do our teachers a disservice when we remove their
freedom to exercise their judgement. Also, we do the
children a huge disservice when we put them in any
school environment that doesn't let them exercise
responsibility for their own education.
My little sermon du jour, in case anyone wants to make
me /reverb/ the almighty ruler of the universe.
MQ
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RE: What a joke.............old business
By dan dandugan.com
RE: What a joke.............old business
By aesopo_aeternus yahoo.com
Re: What a joke.............old business
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 17:39:28 +0000
From: L G Clemens (aesopo_aeternus yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: What a joke.............old business
Dan Dugan wrote:
)
) Linda Clemens, you wrote (in part),
) )There's no other word for it. Unbelievable...........seven years
) )PLANS has
) )done nothing but waste the courts time and wastefully drain resources
) )away from the public schools. Throughout the entire case, you did
) )nothing but obstruct. Filings were always late. Disclosures weren't
) )forthcoming. You waste the schools' time filling your exhibit list
) )with irrelevant nonsense like Melville's Moby Dick and d'Aulaire's Greek
) )Myths. Issued Court Orders were ignored. Fines went unpaid.
) )And then when you finally get your day in court, you show up with No
) )Case to present.
) )By all means, Debra, it was *very* important that you be there in the
) )courtroom to watch what sounds like the biggest Non Event since Geraldo
) )Rivera cracked open Al Capone's liquor cabinet. Despite having already
) )contributed lord-knows how much of my tax dollars to this ridiculous
) )debacle, I hate to see you have to put out your own money for gas to get
) )there.
) )
) )I'm reimbursing you the $25. I just contributed thru amazon--just fill
) )out an expense claim.
)
) All donations are gratefully accepted, thank you.
)
) -Dan Dugan
As I indicated shortly after this post was made, amazon's Honor System
rejected my submission because I had already gone over the limit
donating to Hurricane Katrina, but I promised Debra would be reimbursed.
Before I do so, I want to make sure there is no confusion and that you
understand this money May Not Be used for any purpose other than Debra's
expenses for gasoline. You do not have my permission to put this toward
any other purpose whatsoever, including your lawyer's fees and expenses,
legal costs including filing fees, copies, depositions, and witnesses,
nor may you apply it towards the defendants' costs assessed against
PLANS as the losing party in this suit. It may not be applied towards
the costs of operating any of your websites. This money is given for
the purpose of repaying Debra Sell for the gasoline she used to travel
to the courtroom Sept 12, 2005--ONLY.
If PLANS agrees to these terms, I will send the funds.
Linda
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:41:16 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: What a joke.............old business
LINDA CLEMENS:
) ) )I'm reimbursing you the $25. I just contributed thru amazon--just fill
) ) )out an expense claim.
DAN DUGAN:
)All donations are gratefully accepted, thank you.
)As I indicated shortly after this post was made, amazon's Honor System
)rejected my submission because I had already gone over the limit
)donating to Hurricane Katrina, but I promised Debra would be reimbursed.
)
)Before I do so, I want to make sure there is no confusion and that you
)understand this money May Not Be used for any purpose other than Debra's
)expenses for gasoline. You do not have my permission to put this toward
)any other purpose whatsoever, including your lawyer's fees and expenses,
)legal costs including filing fees, copies, depositions, and witnesses,
)nor may you apply it towards the defendants' costs assessed against
)PLANS as the losing party in this suit. It may not be applied towards
)the costs of operating any of your websites. This money is given for
)the purpose of repaying Debra Sell for the gasoline she used to travel
)to the courtroom Sept 12, 2005--ONLY.
)
)If PLANS agrees to these terms, I will send the funds.
Your earmarked donation will be gratefully accepted. Now how about
the $100 you owe us for the challenge you and Deborah made on
defendingsteiner.com?
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 01:54:35 +0000
From: L G Clemens (aesopo_aeternus yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: What a joke.............old business
Dan Dugan wrote:
)
) LINDA CLEMENS:
) ) ) )I'm reimbursing you the $25. I just contributed thru amazon--just fill
) ) ) )out an expense claim.
)
) DAN DUGAN:
) )All donations are gratefully accepted, thank you.
)
) )As I indicated shortly after this post was made, amazon's Honor System
) )rejected my submission because I had already gone over the limit
) )donating to Hurricane Katrina, but I promised Debra would be reimbursed.
) )
) )Before I do so, I want to make sure there is no confusion and that you
) )understand this money May Not Be used for any purpose other than Debra's
) )expenses for gasoline. You do not have my permission to put this toward
) )any other purpose whatsoever, including your lawyer's fees and expenses,
) )legal costs including filing fees, copies, depositions, and witnesses,
) )nor may you apply it towards the defendants' costs assessed against
) )PLANS as the losing party in this suit. It may not be applied towards
) )the costs of operating any of your websites. This money is given for
) )the purpose of repaying Debra Sell for the gasoline she used to travel
) )to the courtroom Sept 12, 2005--ONLY.
) )
) )If PLANS agrees to these terms, I will send the funds.
)
) Your earmarked donation will be gratefully accepted.
Done.
) Now how about
) the $100 you owe us for the challenge you and Deborah made on
) defendingsteiner.com?
)
) -Dan Dugan
I assume you mean this one?
http://www.defendingsteiner.com/wc/archives/2005/08/the_big_lie_fro.html
[Rubbing me eyes] I don't see your answer to this challenge there, Dan.
Am I having deja vu? Because this is feeling very much like a repeat of
your lawsuit, where the evidence you're supposed to present is
.................................. missing. Are you "opting out" of our
challenge the same way you "opted out" of presenting any exceptible
evidence *At All!* in court?
I'm about as undazzled by the empty bluster now as I was reading PLANS'
empty bluster in the court transcripts.
Do you think all that is required is to give your own personal say-so
and tah-dah!
Deborah apparently foretold there'd be PLANS funny-business here, and
the rules she layed out were very sensible and very thorough. If you
think you're due $100, then tarry no more. Just go over there and
produce what she asked.
Linda
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 23:54:35 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: What a joke.............old business
Linda wrote:
)Deborah apparently foretold there'd be PLANS funny-business here, and
)the rules she layed out were very sensible and very thorough. If you
)think you're due $100, then tarry no more. Just go over there and
)produce what she asked.
Linda,
If you really do not know, this matter has already been dealt with - the
latest explanation was a post from Dan on Sept 22 - forwarded from Peter
Staudenmaier.
There is another post from Peter (via Dan) on the same day. Check the
archives. It is NOT very difficult and I am sure you can understand the
whole thing if you put a little effort into reading the explanation. The
$100.00 offer was silly, imo and Peter's helpful posts should tell you why.
Perhaps one day you and your peers will be able to discuss these issues
without obfuscation and silly bets tossed in from the sidelines.
Here's hoping.
-Walden
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1967
-- Topica Digest --
RE: What a joke.............old business
By kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au
Re: What a joke.............old business
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: What a joke.............old business
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 12:58:22 +0000
From: Keith McLean (kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au)
Subject: RE: What a joke.............old business
walden wrote:
)
) Linda wrote:
) )Deborah apparently foretold there'd be PLANS funny-business here, and
) )the rules she layed out were very sensible and very thorough. If you
) )think you're due $100, then tarry no more. Just go over there and
) )produce what she asked.
)
) Linda,
)
) If you really do not know, this matter has already been dealt with - the
) latest explanation was a post from Dan on Sept 22 - forwarded from Peter
) Staudenmaier.
This one:
http://lists.topica.com/lists/waldorf-critics/read/message.html?mid=1719463952&sort=d&start=28926
) There is another post from Peter (via Dan) on the same day. Check the
) archives. It is NOT very difficult and I am sure you can understand the
) whole thing if you put a little effort into reading the explanation.
The explanation:
"Between June 7 and June 17, 1910, Rudolf Steiner
gave a series of lectures on the mission of
various “Volksseelen” or “national souls” in
Oslo, Norway. The transcripts of eleven of these
lectures were gathered into book form and
published during Steiner’s lifetime, and were
then re-published after Steiner’s death by the
executors of his literary estate, with several
significant editorial modifications (mostly
involving terminological changes from
“theosophical” to “anthroposophical” etc.). This
later edition is now volume 121 in the
Gesamtausgabe, the official version of Steiner’s
complete works, appearing under the title Die
Mission einzelner Volksseelen im Zusammenhang mit
der germanisch-nordischen Mythologie (most
recently in paperback, Dornach 1994).
There are two authorized English translations:
one from the Anthroposophic Press (New York) in
1929 under the title The Mission of Folk-Souls in
Connection with Germanic Scandinavian Mythology,
and one from the Rudolf Steiner Press (London) in
1970 under the title The Mission of the
Individual Folk Souls in Relation to Teutonic
Mythology. I will quote from the latter edition.
The title of the book indicates its basic
content: an account of various “national souls”
or “folk souls” and their putative role in
spiritual evolution and human affairs. According
to the table of contents, chapter three discusses
the “Formation of the Races”, chapter four “The
Evolution of Races and Civilization”, and chapter
six “The Five Root Races of Mankind”. To give
readers a substantial look at the full spectrum
of racial doctrines outlined in the “folk souls”
book, what follows are some very long excerpts
from the text."
(From:
http://lists.topica.com/lists/waldorf-critics/read/message.html?mid=1719463952&sort=d&start=28926)
Um, so I guess the publishing details are the following:
Title: "The Mission of Folk-Souls in
Connection with Germanic Scandinavian Mythology"
Date: 1929
GA Number: 121
Another Waldorf Critics posts on same topic, with specific explanation:
http://lists.topica.com/lists/waldorf-critics/read/message.html?mid=1719463953&sort=d&start=28926
Quote (from Peter S.):
"I’ve read the three posts about the opening
paragraph of my first article on anthroposophy
posted to the defending steiner site by Deborah,
the grandmotherly librarian, with whom I tried to
have several exchanges on the Anthroposophy
Tomorrow email list in the spring of 2004
(Deborah declined to discuss anything with me
directly, though her responses are nevertheless
quite illuminating).
In these new posts, Deborah decries various
“lies” that she thinks are contained in the
aforementioned paragraph from my article, which
discusses Steiner’s 1910 Oslo lectures on “folk
souls”. This is familiar territory, as Deborah
and I both wrote about this very topic on
Anthroposophy Tomorrow in April 2004 (see e.g.
the posts titled “lies” from April 8 2004 and
“reading and falsehoods” from April 17 2004).
Anthroposophy Tomorrow can be viewed here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/messages
I explained to Deborah at that time what “lying”
means, and why her real complaint is not that I
have “lied”, but rather that I have made claims
about Steiner that she considers erroneous. (This
basic distinction remains absent from her new
messages.) I also pointed out that Steiner’s book
on “folk souls” says, among other things, that
the Negro race is substantially determined by
childhood characteristics, and that the American
Indians died out because they were destined to do
so, not because of European persecutions. Deborah
replied that the text of the “folk souls”
lectures “doesn’t support, in any way, Peter’s
description.” I then provided the relevant
quotations from the book where Steiner says
exactly this, along with full citations. There
was no response from Deborah after that."
and
"The latest messages from Deborah appear to repeat
this odd approach, indicating (if I understand
the context correctly) that the words quoted from
Steiner’s “folk souls” book in the opening
paragraph of my article do not, in fact, appear
in the book. They do of course appear in the
book, as we’ll see in a moment. But Deborah’s new
messages are puzzling in other ways as well. For
example, she refers repeatedly to my paragraph as
if it contained a single quotation from Steiner
(in fact it contains five brief quotes from
Steiner, all from the “folk souls” book); she
asks to see “the full quote”, and wonders “if
anyone can verify this quote.” She does not
indicate which of the five quotes she means, or
if she means all of them collectively. She also
refers to “ellipses” (there are no ellipses in my
paragraph, much less in the Steiner quotes it
contains, all of which are either one or two
words long, and hence not even potentially
candidates for ellipsis), and asks for “the date
and title of the lecture in question”. But the
book contains eleven lectures, spread across ten
dates, each with its own title.
Deborah further inquires about “the GA number of
the volume wherein it was published”; the
paragraph refers quite explicitly to the whole
lecture series, and the accompanying footnote
provides citations for both the most recent
English version and the most recent German
version of the book (which is, by the way, GA
121). She then claims that this text “has never
been identified,” evidently forgetting not only
my article itself (which she quotes), but our
exchange on Anthroposophy Tomorrow as well, where
we both discussed the book. Deborah also writes:
“I'll even stretch the point and allow you to
pick and choose passages from several different
lectures, as though Staudenmaier's summary covers
the entire lecture series.” My paragraph itself
says this very clearly, referring unambiguously
to “the lecture series” and “the Oslo lectures”.
Two sentences later, however, Deborah wonders
whether I “made a teensy little mistake and just
happened to footnote the wrong lecture series,”
indicating that she has, in fact, grasped the
notion that a lecture series is being discussed,
not a single lecture. She nevertheless goes on to
speak of one “quote” rather than five distinct
quotes.
In other words, it is difficult to ascertain just
what Deborah is asking for, but I will do my best
to provide here the information that she has
apparently been unable to find in Steiner’s text
itself. The quotes I offered from Steiner’s book
do appear in the book, and my footnote does
indeed cite the correct lecture series. Here are
the details."
And the passage in question:
"The opening paragraph of my article reads as follows:
"In June, 1910, Rudolf Steiner, the founder of
anthroposophy, began a speaking tour of Norway
with a lecture to a large and attentive audience
in Oslo. The lecture series was titled “The
Mission of National Souls in Relation to
Nordic-Germanic Mythology.” In the Oslo lectures
Steiner presented his theory of “national souls”
(Volksseelen in German, Steiner’s native tongue)
and paid particular attention to the mysterious
wonders of the “Nordic spirit.” The “national
souls” of Northern and Central Europe belonged,
Steiner explained, to the “germanic-nordic”
peoples, the world’s most spiritually advanced
ethnic group, which was in turn the vanguard of
the highest of five historical “root races.”
This superior fifth root race, Steiner told his
Oslo audience, was naturally the “Aryan” race."
The footnote to this paragraph reads:
"See Rudolf Steiner, Die Mission einzelner
Volksseelen im Zusammenhang mit der
germanisch-nordischen Mythologie, Dornach,
Switzerland 1994. These lectures are available in
English under the title The Mission of the
Individual Folk Souls in Relation to Teutonic
Mythology, London 1970. The “Nordic spirit” of
Scandinavia continues to fascinate European
anthroposophists; see, for example, Hans Mändl,
Vom Geist des Nordens, Stuttgart 1966.""
[From:
http://lists.topica.com/lists/waldorf-critics/read/message.html?mid=1719463953&sort=d&start=28926]
Peter S. looks at the terminology he uses in the above passage (eg.
Nordic Spirit,etc.):
"Deborah appears to be saying that she can discern
no relationship between my paragraph and the book
it refers to. I think this is very likely due to
differing interpretations of the book; to
accommodate Deborah’s stated concerns, however, I
will stick to the words I quoted from it. The
“folk souls” book as a whole is a narrative of
racial formation and racial migration, of racial
character and racial spirits, of racial advance
and racial decline, all presented as a reflection
of and an embodiment of spiritual evolution, as a
matter of cosmic destiny and of great occult
significance. In the latter half of the book,
Steiner’s focus shifts from races to peoples, in
line with his teaching about the progression from
racial character to national character. It is a
lengthy work, and to do justice to it I will
follow up this message with a selection of long
excerpts from the text that give a fuller sense
of its message about race and ethnicity. But for
now let us concentrate solely on the words that
Deborah thinks are not to be found in this book.
The first quote in my paragraph is the title
term, “Volksseelen”, which I quote in German and
then render as “national souls”, while noting the
standard anthroposophist translation of “folk
souls” in the footnote. This term is of course a
constant throughout the text, and Deborah
apparently thinks that “national souls” is a
faulty translation. She would do well to
reconsider. “Volksgeist” and “Volksseele” are
common terms from German Idealism and
Romanticism, and their most straightforward
correlate in English is “national spirits” and
“national souls”, though “spirit of a people” and
“soul of a people” are acceptable if somewhat
clumsy alternatives. A recent anthroposophist
re-translation of the first lecture in the “folk
souls” book uses “Spirits of Nations” (rather
than “folk spirits”); see the fifth chapter in
Angels: Selected Lectures by Rudolf Steiner,
translated by Anna Meuss, Rudolf Steiner Press
2001. (Also worth noting is the passage on the
“Semitic Nation Spirit” on p. 114 of the “folk
souls” book itself.)"
Some points:
1. The term "national souls" does not appear in rsarchive.org version of
the lecture series.
2.Babel Fish translation ( http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr ):
a. Volksseelen - People souls
b. Volksgeist - People spirit
c. Volksseele - People soul
d. Volks - People
3. dict.cc ( http://www.dict.cc/?s=National&btngo=Go%21 ):
a. Volks - national (used When referring to a specific country).
b. Notice the many alternative terms referring to "national".
4. Article and other information on Franz Boas, important
anthropologist: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Boas ):
a. "Writings on Boas and Boasian Anthropology:"
"Stocking, George W., Jr., ed. 1996. Volksgeist as Method and Ethic:
Essays on Boasian Ethnography and the German Anthropological Tradition.
ISBN 0-299-14554-9"
[Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Boas ]
b. Read up to and including page 6 of the book excerpt to more clearly
understand the significance of Volksgeist, criticism of it, and the
development of anthropology in Boas' thought:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0299145506/ref=sib_dp_bod_ex/103-9675485-2258216?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S004#reader-page
)From Page 6 of book excerpt:
"In contrast to Bunzl's emphasis on the cosmographical cultural
tradition, Benoit Massin's "From Virchow to Fischer" focuses on the
physicalistic and biologistic tendency in German anthropological
thought, and on the growing power of the racial determinism which, like
the anthropolgical idea of culture, can be seen as linked to the
Herderian Volksgeist tradition."
"...Massin offers a new and more complex perspective on the development
of racism within the German anthropological tradition. Rather than
following a straight line from Gobineau's Aryanism to Hitler's Nazism,
physical anthropology in Germany was long dominated by what were at the
time relatively anti-racist Lamarckian tendencies, and only succumbed to
a harsher racial determinism after Virchow's death in 1902. Before then,
it could (and did) help to form the anti-racist anthropology of Franz
Boas."
[Source:
ef=sib_dp_bod_ex/103-9675485-2258216?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S004#reader-page
]
c. The influence and some elements of Boas' approach:
"Most of Boas's students shared his concern for careful, historical
reconstruction, and his antipathy towards speculative, evolutionary
models. Moreover, Boas encouraged his students, by example, to criticize
themselves as much as others. For example, Boas originally defended the
cephalic index (systematic variations in head form) as a method for
describing hereditary traits, but came to reject his earlier research
after further study; he similarly came to criticize his own early work
in Kwakiutl (Pacific Northwest) language and mythology.
Encouraged by this drive to self-criticism, as well as the Boasian
commitment to learn from one's informants and to let the findings of
one's research shape one's agenda, Boas's students quickly diverged from
his own research agenda. Several of his students soon attempted to
develop theories of the grand sort that Boas typically rejected. Kroeber
called his colleagues' attention to Sigmund Freud and the potential of a
union between cultural anthropology and psychoanalysis. Ruth Benedict
developed theories of "culture and personality" and "national cultures",
and Kroeber's student, Julian Steward developed theories of "cultural
ecology" and "multilineal evolution."
Nevertheless, Boas has had an enduring influence on anthropology.
Virtually all anthropologists today accept Boas's commitment to
empiricism and his methodological cultural relativism. Moreover,
virtually all cultural anthropologists today share Boas's commitment to
field research involving extended residence, learning the local
language, and developing social relationships with informants. Finally,
anthropologists continue to honor his critique of racial ideologies. In
his 1963 book, Race: The History of an Idea in America, Thomas Gossett
wrote that "It is possible that Boas did more to combat race prejudice
than any other person in history.""
[Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Boas ]
d. On the "Herderian "Volksgeist" tradition":
(i) "Johann Gottfried von Herder (August 25, 1744 – December 18, 1803),
German poet, critic, theologian, and philosopher, is best known for his
influence on authors such as Goethe and the role he played in the
development of the larger cultural movement known as romanticism."
[Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Gottfried_Herder ]
(ii) "Volk and Nation
Herder replaced the traditional concept of a juridico-political state
with that of the folk-nation as organic in its historical growth. Every
nation was in this manner organic and whole, nationality a plant of
nurture. He talked of the "national animal" and of the "physiology of
the whole national group" , which organism was topped by the "national
spirit", the "soul of the volk".
Herder gave Germans a new pride in their origins, modifying that
dominance of regard allotted to Greek art (Greek revival) extolled among
others by Johann Joachim Winkelmann and Gotthold Ephraim Lessing,
remarking that he would have wished to be born in the Middle Ages and
musing whether "the times of the Swabian emperors" did not "deserve to
be set forth in their true light in accordance with the German mode of
thought?" Herder equated the German with the Gothic and favoured Dürer
and everything Gothic. As with the sphere of art, equally he proclaimed
a national message within the sphere of language. He topped the line of
German authors emanating from Martin Opitz, who had written his
Aristarchus, sive de contemptu linguae Teutonicae in Latin in 1617. This
urged Germans to glory in their hitherto despised language, and Herder's
extensive collections of folk-poetry began a great craze in Germany for
that neglected literature.
Along with Wilhelm von Humboldt, he proposed what is now called the
Sapir-Whorf hypothesis — that language determines thought. Herder's
focus upon language and cultural traditions as the ties that create a
"nation" extended to include folklore, dance, music and art, and
inspired Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm in their collection of Germanic folk
tales.
Herder attached exceptional importance to the concept of nationality and
of patriotism — "he that has lost his patriotic spirit has lost himself
and the whole worlds about himself ", whilst teaching that " in a
certain sense every human perfection is national". Herder carried folk
theory to an extreme by maintaining that "there is only one class in the
state, the Volk, (not the rabble), and the king belongs to this class as
well as the peasant". Explanation that the Volk was not the rabble was a
novel conception in this era, and with Herder can be seen the emergence
of "the people" as the basis for the emergence of a classless but
hierarchical national body.
The nation, however was individual and separate, distinguished, to
Herder, by climate, education, foreign intercourse, tradition and
heredity. Providence he praised for having "wonderfully separated
nationalities not only by woods and mountins, seas and deserts, rivers
and climates, but more particularly by languages, inclinations and
characters". Herder praised the tribal outlook writing that "the savage
who loves himself, his wife and child with quiet joy and glows with
limited activity of his tribe as for his own life is in my opinion a
more real being than that cultivated shadow who is enraptured with the
shadow of the whole species", isolated since "each nationality contains
its centre of happiness within itself, as a bullet the centre of
gravity". With no need for comparison since" every nation bears in
itself the standard of its perfection, totally independent of all
comparison with that of others" for "do not nationalities differ in
everything, in poetry, in appearance, in tastes, in usages, customs and
languages? Must not religion which partakes of these also differ among
the nationalities?""
[Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Gottfried_Herder#Volk_and_Nation ]
So are we talking about *nation-state* or *ethnic group*? It is very
evident that nations and kingdoms come and go comparatively frequently,
but communities, traditions and cultures seem to have longer life - the
ethos or ethnic. We see a lot of historical evidence where rulers
attempt to corral people into being followers and members of a united
larger group as defined by the State - and a lot of resistance and
changing of allegiences and identity. So, how easy is it to either
assert or critique a nationalist agenda, and the extent to which it is
followed in the community? No historian can be 100 percent certain of
what every single individual of the day was thinking or feeling on a
given issue, depending instead on external evidence looking for the
patterns of behaviour in communities, such as that regarding political
activities.
[Peter S.:]
"The second quote in my paragraph is “Nordic
Spirit”, which also refers to the Hans Mandl book
mentioned in the footnote, which takes Steiner’s
“folk souls” lectures as its starting point. This
term, too, recurs throughout Steiner’s book, most
often in the form of the “Nordic Folk Spirit”
(e.g. p. 162 or 168), but also as the “Folk
Spirit of the North” (p. 172) and “the Folk
Spirit who rules over the Northern lands” (p.
183); Steiner is also fond of phrases like
“Nordic consciousness” (p. 146). In the German
edition the most common formulation is “der
germanisch-nordische Volksgeist” (e.g. p. 184)."
But the term "nordic spirit" does NOT **APPEAR** in the text of the
lecture series in question on rsarchive.org. Why did Peter S. use the
term "nordic spirit" and *imply* by using inverted commas that it was an
actual term used in the lecture text?
Look:
"The lecture series was titled "The Mission of National Souls in
Relation to Nordic-Germanic Mythology." In the Oslo lectures Steiner
presented his theory of "national souls" (Volksseelen in German,
Steiner's native tongue) and paid particular attention to the mysterious
wonders of the "Nordic spirit.""
It isn't clear here that Peter is making a mere characterisation of
Steiner's use of the terms "Nordic" and "spirit" in the lecture material
by substituting the term "Nordic Spirit", as distinct from the more
immediate interpretation by the reader as to "nordic spirit" being a
literal quotation from the text of an instance of author terminology.
There is no clear distinction between direct citation and indirect
interpretation - it's not clear who is saying what: Peter S. or Steiner.
The words nordic and spirit do not appear together in the lecture text
the way a quotation "Nordic Spirit" implies.
As to the use of "Nordic Folk Spirit", I found it appeared only ONCE in
the lecture series, namely:
"Thus the various missions are distributed between Western, Central,
Northern and Eastern Europe. I wished to give you an indication of these
various missions. On the basis of these indications I propose to add
further observations and show what the Europe of the future will be
like, a future that will ensure that we must form our ideals on the
basis of such knowledge. I propose to show how, through this influence,
the Germanic and Nordic Folk Spirit is gradually transformed into a Time
Spirit."
[Source: "The Mission of the Individual Folk-Souls - LECTURE TEN: The
Mission of individual Peoples and Cultures in the Past, Present and
Future. Solovieff."
http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0121/19100616p02.html ]
The term "folk souls" does appear quite frequently in the lecture
series:
tp://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0121/search=context?query=folk+souls
. The phrase "folk Spirit who rules over the Northern lands" is nowhere
to be found.
The term "Nordic Consciousness" appears in the following way:
"Where man is related to the external world Lucifer confronts Ahriman,
so that the infiltration of error into his knowledge — even into his
clairvoyant knowledge — all illusion and maya, is the consequence of the
tendency to falsehood which is active there. The Fenris Wolf represents
the configuration surrounding man because he does not see things in
their true form. Whenever the ancient Teutons experienced the darkening
of the light of truth, they spoke of a wolf. This permeates the whole of
Nordic consciousness and you will find that this image is used in this
sense even in relation to external facts."
[Source: "The Mission of the Individual Folk-Souls - LECTURE NINE:
Loki — Hodur and Baldur — Twilight of the Gods."
http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0121/19100615p02.html ]
[Peter S.:]
"The third quote in my paragraph is
“germanic-nordic”, a term which once again
appears in a number of contexts in the book, for
example the phrase “Germanic-Nordic man” repeated
on pp.134, 135, and 136, or the figure of “the
Archangel of the Germanic North” (p. 172); this
is a favorite theme for Steiner particularly in
the latter half of the book, where he has much to
say about the special role of the germanic-nordic
peoples in further developing the spiritual
capacities of the current epoch and of the
future. According to Steiner, these “new
capacities will appear in the isolated few who
are specially fitted to receive them.” (p. 173)
“We hope that those forces which the Archangel of
the Teutonic world can contribute to the
evolution of modern times will be able to provide
the core and living essence of Spiritual
Science.” (p. 179; “Teutonic” is here as
elsewhere in the book a translation of
“germanisch-nordisch”, see p. 196 in the German
edition.) This theme continues in other parts of
the text: “Although not apparent from the
external point of view today, the Archangel of
the Germanic North had within him this tendency,
and thanks to this tendency he is particularly
fitted to understand modern Spiritual Science and
to transform it in the appropriate manner to
satisfy the inherent potentialities of the
people. You will therefore appreciate why I have
said that the soul of the Germanic peoples in
particular is best fitted to understand what I
could only indicate briefly in the public lecture
which I gave here on the Second Coming of
Christ.” (p. 172)"
-) In the lecture series:
http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0121/search=context?query=germanic-nordic
[Peter S.:]
"The fourth quote in my paragraph is “root races”,
the standard theosophical terminology in which
Steiner at this time presented his racial and
ethnic doctrines. A remarkable number of
anthroposophists have publicly insisted that this
term does not appear in the “folk souls” book.
They are mistaken. The title of chapter six is
“The five Root Races of Mankind” (this title is
used both in the table of contents, on p. 7, and
at the head of chapter six itself, on p. 97), and
this lecture (from June 12, 1910) does indeed
discuss in considerable detail “the five Root
Races of the Earth.” (p. 101) There are further
instances of “root race” elsewhere in the chapter
as well, for example on p. 107, and the phrase
“root races” also appears in the synopsis of the
chapter, on p. 15. The German terms Steiner uses
are “Grundrassen” and “Hauptrassen” (see the
German edition e.g. pp. 108, 115, and 119); the
latter term in particular was one of several
translations of the term “root races” in German
theosophical literature of the era, one which
Steiner used in his other works as well (for
example Cosmic Memory, whose title in German is
Aus der Akasha-Chronik). In the “root races”
chapter of the “folk souls” book Steiner offers
an extended description of the role of racial
spirits in directing racial evolution and racial
distribution, along with detailed discussions of
various racial groups and their ostensible
characteristics, spiritual as well as physical.
My next message will include lengthy excerpts
from this central chapter."
-) In the lecture series:
http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0121/search=context?query=germanic-nordic
[Peter S.:]
"The last quote in my paragraph is “Aryan”,
another term which several anthroposophists
insist does not appear in the book. It appears in
the middle of the chapter on “root races”, where
Steiner discusses the role of special spiritual
forces associated with Mercury, Venus, Mars,
Jupiter, and Saturn in each of the five “root
races”. The passage reads thus: “Now the Jupiter
forces work indirectly through the
sense-impressions and from there radiate to those
parts of the central nervous system which are
situated in the brain and spinal cord. Here is
the seat of those forces which determine the
particular racial character of those races
belonging to the Jupiter humanity. This applies
more or less to the Aryans, to the peoples of
Asia Minor and Europe whom we regard as members
of the Caucasian race.” (106) The German term for
“Aryan” is “arisch”, and can be found on p. 114
of the German edition of the book."
The lecture series as presented on rsarchive.org:
http://www.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/index.php?ga=GA0121
The
) $100.00 offer was silly, imo and Peter's helpful posts should tell you
) why.
) Perhaps one day you and your peers will be able to discuss these issues
) without obfuscation and silly bets tossed in from the sidelines.
)
) Here's hoping.
)
) -Walden
)
)
Makes sense to me, and Peter S. explains it clearly. However, I still
don't agree with some of the assumptions he seems to be making here.
Thanks,
Keith
Reason guides our attempt to understand the world about us. Both reason
and compassion guide our efforts to apply that knowledge ethically, to
understand other people, and have ethical relationships with other
people.
- Molleen Matsumura
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 10:31:39 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: What a joke.............old business
Keith wrote:
)Makes sense to me, and Peter S. explains it clearly. However, I still
)don't agree with some of the assumptions he seems to be making here.
I agree - the issue is clear. The initial wager was goofy. Is there room for
disagreement with regards to interpretation? Apparently there is and it is
worth discussing even if you and Peter might end up agreeing to disagree.
This nonsense about inventing "lies" grows tiresome. While I do not really
expect Linda and her peers to fork over $100.00 to PLANS, they might
consider a public apology to Dan and Peter Staudenmaier.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 15:52:34 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: What a joke.............old business
DAN DUGAN:
) ) Now how about
)) the $100 you owe us for the challenge you and Deborah made on
)) defendingsteiner.com?
))
)) -Dan Dugan
)
)I assume you mean this one?
)
)http://www.defendingsteiner.com/wc/archives/2005/08/the_big_lie_fro.html
)
)[Rubbing me eyes] I don't see your answer to this challenge there, Dan.
)Am I having deja vu? Because this is feeling very much like a repeat of
)your lawsuit, where the evidence you're supposed to present is
).................................. missing. Are you "opting out" of our
)challenge the same way you "opted out" of presenting any exceptible
)evidence *At All!* in court?
)
)I'm about as undazzled by the empty bluster now as I was reading PLANS'
)empty bluster in the court transcripts.
)Do you think all that is required is to give your own personal say-so
)and tah-dah!
)
)Deborah apparently foretold there'd be PLANS funny-business here, and
)the rules she layed out were very sensible and very thorough. If you
)think you're due $100, then tarry no mo