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-- Topica Digest --
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter
how ba
By emanuel.landeholm gmail.com
anthroposophists on voting for Germany
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter how ba
By cffrey mindspring.com
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter
how ba
By dan dandugan.com
Steiner's editors on voting for Germany
By pstaud hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:56:07 +0100
From: Emanuel Landeholm (emanuel.landeholm gmail.com)
Subject: RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter
how ba
On ons, 2007-02-28 at 04:58 +0000, Lemuria wrote:
) How many waldorf teachers does it take to change a lightbulb?
Seven?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 02:43:17 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: anthroposophists on voting for Germany
Hello again all,
Here are a couple more instances of anthroposophists declaring that the
official threefolding position during the Upper Silesian campaign was to
vote for Germany. As a reminder, Steiner's lectures on Upper Silesia were
held in January 1921 and the plebiscite occurred on March 20, 1921.
Right in between those two dates the threefolding organization, the Bund für
Dreigliederung des sozialen Organismus, published an announcement in the
Frankfurter Zeitung (probably the most prominent newspaper in Germany at the
time) on March 12, 1921 under the title “Dreigliederung des sozialen
Organismus und Oberschlesien” (Social Threefolding and Upper Silesia)
stating very explicitly that their position was indeed to vote for Germany
in the upcoming plebiscite. The editors of Steiner's collected works also
note this public announcement on several occasions.
A coule years after the plebiscite anthroposophists returned to the topic.
In a February 1923 discussion with Steiner and other anthroposophists and
threefolders, including those involved in the Upper Silesian campaign, Hans
Büchenbacher, a Stuttgart anthroposophist, reported:
“During the struggles around the plebiscite in Upper Silesia, many
anthroposophist public speakers in Germany presented threefolding as the
peaceful solution and the only healthy solution to the problem, whereupon
accusations of treason appeared in the press. Our speakers were able to
rebuff these accusations. After all, they could simply point to the fact
that if it came to a plebiscite, the threefolders would of course vote for
Germany, and that Dr. Steiner himself said this clearly.”
(Rudolf Steiner, Das Schicksalsjahr 1923 in der Geschichte der
Anthroposophischen Gesellschaft, GA 259, Dornach 1991, p. 389)
It is worth noting that Steiner was one of the next participants to speak
(less than a page later) and did not in any way modify or correct or deny
Büchenbacher’s unambiguous description, nor did the Silesian participants.
One more quote from Steiner himself to follow. Greetings to all,
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
Win a Zune™—make MSN® your homepage for your chance to win!
http://homepage.msn.com/zune?icid=hmetagline
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 22:08:47 +0000
From: Lemuria (cffrey mindspring.com)
Subject: RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter how ba
Emanuel Landeholm wrote:
)
) On ons, 2007-02-28 at 04:58 +0000, Lemuria wrote:
) ) How many waldorf teachers does it take to change a lightbulb?
)
) Seven?
)
)
Could be.
That would mean one to change it, 2 to get him fired for changing
something, and 4 to turn the other way and let it happen.
That's how it worked at my last school, anyway.
YMMV.
c
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:10:52 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter
how ba
) ) ) How many waldorf teachers does it take to change a lightbulb?
))
)) Seven?
))
))
) Could be.
)That would mean one to change it, 2 to get him fired for changing
)something, and 4 to turn the other way and let it happen.
)That's how it worked at my last school, anyway.
)YMMV.
That's good! The answer I heard was "We don't know, Steiner didn't
give any indications about that."
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 03:41:03 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Steiner's editors on voting for Germany
Hello critics and non-critics,
I noted in my last post that the editors of Steiner's collected works (the
Gesamtausgabe, the definitive edition of his texts published in Dornach by
the administrators of Steiner's estate) have on several occasions confirmed
that the position of the threefolding movement during the Upper Silesian
campaign was indeed to vote for Germany. In fact Steiner himself said this
unequivocally not long after the plebiscite; I'll get to that quote
eventually. For now, here are a couple of examples of Steiner's editors
explaining the matter for readers of his works. These are my quick
translations; I encourage anyone who reads German to look at the context,
which is very interesting in its own right.
In a lecture in Dornach on March 11, 1921, Steiner reports that after
returning from a trip to Holland he was "surprised" to find articles in the
German press asserting that the social threefolding movement in Upper
Silesia was promoting disloyalty to Germany. He insists that these claims
are completely false. The editors then provide a lengthy footnote to explain
the background. The editors write:
“Silesian friends of Rudolf Steiner’s threefolding idea had tried to
advocate social threefolding to a broad audience as a solution to the
problem, in order to save Upper Silesia from the disastrous consequences of
the plebiscite they had been forced into in 1921, but with the additional
recommendation that in case the plebiscite occurred, the only possible vote
was a vote for Germany.”
(Rudolf Steiner, Die Verantwortung des Menschen für die Weltentwickelung, GA
203, Dornach 1989, p. 337)
The editors for this volume were C. S. Picht (one of Steiner’s original
coworkers, who edited the first edition of the book in 1953), Hans Huber,
Robert Friedenthal and Caroline Wispler.
A more recent example is even more revealing. In a volume dedicated to the
charges raised by various opponents of anthroposophy during Steiner's
lifetime, the editors give a fairly thorough summary of the Upper Silesian
threefolding campaign. Here is what they write:
“The threefolding league sought to postpone the decision about the final
status of Upper Silesia and thus hoped to annul the plebiscite. With this
step it hoped to create the possibility of realizing threefolding on a
limited scale.”
They then quote extensively from the first text that Frank and I argued
about, the Call to Save Upper Silesia, including what they describe as its
“practical-political proposal”; after the quote they continue:
“In case this ideal solution should turn out to be unrealizable, and in case
the plebiscite was thus to be carried out anyway, the representatives of the
threefolding league adopted a pro-German position, one which they naturally
did not propagate to the outside world, for the sake of their preferred
solution.”
(Rudolf Steiner, Die Anthroposophie und ihre Gegner, GA 255b, Dornach 2003,
pp. 555-556)
The editors in this case are Alexander Lüscher, Ulla Trapp, Dörte Mehrling
and Konrad Donat.
As it turns out, the last claim above, that the threefolders did not make
their explicit stance in favor of voting for Germany public before the
plebiscite, is mistaken, as we’ll see in my next post.
Greetings to all,
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
Refi Now: Rates near 39yr lows! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate
new payment
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------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2467
-- Topica Digest --
Steiner on voting for Germany
By pstaud hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 13:33:10 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Steiner on voting for Germany
Hello once more critics and others,
Here's another quote from Steiner about voting for Germany in the Upper
Silesian plebiscite. Perhaps this one will find a more sensible reading from
fans of threefolding today. It's from a public lecture in Stuttgart about
anthroposophy and social threefolding on May 25, 1921. Steiner is once again
countering the claims of critics of anthroposophy. He says:
“When things like this are put forth, it is no surprise to find people
claiming that anthroposophy had shown its un-German and un-national aspect
in its stance on the Upper Silesian question. Everybody who asked us for
advice in that situation was told that whoever stands in our ranks should
vote for Germany if the plebiscite comes. We never said anything different.
We also said that the point is not this plebiscite, but rather establishing
Upper Silesia as an integral territory that is inwardly united with the
German spiritual essence.”
(Rudolf Steiner, Die Anthroposophie und ihre Gegner, GA 255b, Dornach 2003,
p. 328)
Greetings to all,
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
With tax season right around the corner, make sure to follow these few
simple tips.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/PreparationTips/PreparationTips.aspx?icid=HMFebtagline
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2468
-- Topica Digest --
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter
By eltrigal78 yahoo.com
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter
By dan dandugan.com
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 17:06:18 +0000
From: Frank Smith (eltrigal78 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter
A priest, a mullah, a rabbi, a Waldorf-critic and an anthroposophist
were on a small plane crossing the Rockies. Suddenly the pilot announced
that there was engine trouble and they had to lose weight or crash. So
they threw out everything not screwed down. But the pilot announced that
they were still too heavy. The priest sighed, went to the door, said
“Dominus vobiscum”, and jumped out. But the pilot said they
were still too heavy. The mullah sighed, went to the door, said
“Allah is great” and jumped out. But the pilot said they
were still too heavy. The rabbi sighed, went to the door, said
“Mozel tov” and jumped out. The pilot said they were still
too heavy and if they could lose about 60 kilos more, they might make
it. The Waldorf-critic and the anthroposophist looked at each other, but
neither moved. The pilot screamed if they didn’t lose that weight
they’d crash. Finally the Waldorf-critic sighed, went to the door,
said “Heil Dugan”, and threw the anthroposophist out.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 15:53:12 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter
3/2/07, Frank Smith wrote:
)A priest, a mullah, a rabbi, a Waldorf-critic and an anthroposophist
)were on a small plane crossing the Rockies. Suddenly the pilot announced
)that there was engine trouble and they had to lose weight or crash. So
)they threw out everything not screwed down. But the pilot announced that
)they were still too heavy. The priest sighed, went to the door, said
)“Dominus vobiscum”, and jumped out. But the pilot said they
)were still too heavy. The mullah sighed, went to the door, said
)“Allah is great” and jumped out. But the pilot said they
)were still too heavy. The rabbi sighed, went to the door, said
)“Mozel tov” and jumped out. The pilot said they were still
)too heavy and if they could lose about 60 kilos more, they might make
)it. The Waldorf-critic and the anthroposophist looked at each other, but
)neither moved. The pilot screamed if they didn’t lose that weight
)they’d crash. Finally the Waldorf-critic sighed, went to the door,
)said “Heil Dugan”, and threw the anthroposophist out.
If this was -funny-, I'd ignore it, but I fail to see it as anything
but baiting the moderator. Feeling bitter after the total defeat of
the "reading style" party, Frank?
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 06:22:53 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter
Dan Dugan fails to see anything but moderator baiting in the following:
) )A priest, a mullah, a rabbi, a Waldorf-critic and an anthroposophist
) )were on a small plane crossing the Rockies. Suddenly the pilot announced
) )that there was engine trouble and they had to lose weight or crash. So
) )they threw out everything not screwed down. But the pilot announced that
) )they were still too heavy. The priest sighed, went to the door, said
) )“Dominus vobiscum”, and jumped out. But the pilot said they
) )were still too heavy. The mullah sighed, went to the door, said
) )“Allah is great” and jumped out. But the pilot said they
) )were still too heavy. The rabbi sighed, went to the door, said
) )“Mozel tov” and jumped out. The pilot said they were still
) )too heavy and if they could lose about 60 kilos more, they might make
) )it. The Waldorf-critic and the anthroposophist looked at each other, but
) )neither moved. The pilot screamed if they didn’t lose that weight
) )they’d crash. Finally the Waldorf-critic sighed, went to the door,
) )said “Heil Dugan”, and threw the anthroposophist out.
I see something along the lines of:
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is
the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
I think William Pitt said that over two hundred years ago and Frank's
been telling one version or another of this joke for almost as long.
It's a very old story so I wouldn't take it personally, Dan, but I have
to say that this looks like yet another example of different reading
styles to me.
Dan Dugan wrote:
) If this was -funny-, I'd ignore it, but I fail to see it as anything
) but baiting the moderator.
But I think Barbara Bush said it better:
"Why should we hear about body bags, and deaths...I mean, it's not
relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like
that?"
Sweet Dreams, Dan,
Val
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2469
-- Topica Digest --
RE: Star Sade backs bid for private school to go free
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
RE: Admin: OT warning (Franky & Valerie) [the X files]
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
RE: Star Sade backs bid for private school to go free
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Star Sade backs bid for private school to go free
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 16:34:12 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Star Sade backs bid for private school to go free
Dan Dugan wrote:
) An excellent question. I have an opinion, but I'm not expert in child
) development. I wish we had someone who is to advise us.
I agree, Dan that you are not an expert in child development. I take it
that no one else here is either-yet we all have opinions. Someone
complained awhile back that this list was entirely opinion based but as
I see it, the entire world is run not by knowledge, or creativity, but
by opinions.
) My opinion is that children should be constantly exposed to literacy
) from toddling onward, as much as they can handle.
That sounds extreme to me possibly because my children all "toddled"
quite early-the oldest took her first steps when she was eight months
old. But I assume you base your opinion on the literature you read that
make the distinction between a stage of infancy and a stage of
toddlerhood.
The attempts of
) Waldorf kindergartens to avoid contact with the written word are
) bizarre and border on abuse.
Is this also your opinion or does this represent a bias or prejudice
against Waldorf kindergartens or perhaps both?-Val
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 17:17:31 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Admin: OT warning (Franky & Valerie) [the X files]
Dan Dugan wrote:
)
) ) ) Dear Franky and Valerie, this discussion has gone off-topic.
) )
) )Well, thanks once again Dan for your reminders. I'd like to remind you
) )that the problems that come up when non-anthroposophists speak to
) )anthroposophists is mentioned quite frequently on this list.
)
) As it should be. Talking about thinking is the result of that
) favorite Anthroposophical activity "thinking about thinking."
Dear Dan,
Since I assume that you read this list and know what you're talking
about could you please provide a recent example of what you're talking
about. An example of the problem of speaking with an anthroposophist
equating to talking about thinking?
) )Additionally, anthroposophists thoughts are routinely characterized in a
) )ridiculing and/or dismissive manner.
)
) Again as they should be. You'll find reverent support for
) Anthroposophical ideas elsewhere.
I do not seek reverent support for Anthroposophical ideas here but
rather respect for the contributions of each individual's thoughts on
any given subject. How is it that you find routinely dismissing and/or
ridiculing the thoughts of your subscribers helpful?
) )It has also been my experience that
) )when a critic has made such assertions regarding my thinking that they
) )are not only in error but usually grossly so.
)
) For that you have your own writing to blame.
Perhaps, however I also find much evidence here for pre-existing biases
against anthroposphy that may be inhibiting judgement on your part.
) )Bringing a lengthy explanation of one of Steiner's common writing and
) )lecturing structures is probably not as fun as dismissing the other as
) )pretentious and self-deluded.
) )
) )Bringing an example of a chiasmus in an effort to point out and discuss
) )one of the potential causes of differences in reading practices is
) )certainly more laborious and probably not as interesting as just calling
) )the other person inattentive or inferring that they are illiterate.
)
) Trying to apply a formal structure to a translation of a quote from a
) casual lecture looks irrelevant to me.
I agree with your judgement here Dan just not your observation. No such
attempt has been made.
) You're welcome to present your arguments, and others are welcome to
) laugh at them.
No, Dan, I'm not because as you've mentioned before we're not here to
entertain our friends.
) )I don't know how that squares with your rules except maybe you don't
) )consider anthroposophists or supporters of Waldorf Education as being
) )human. I understand when it's repeated over and over that a group of
) )people are different and inferior that they can eventually be seen as
) )something less than human beings.
)
) Now the poor Anthroposophists are portrayed as victims of
) demonization. How ironic, for a sect that actually believes in demons.
Is that your working definition of an inferior human being then? A
demon?
) Not by me, but it appeared to me to be loading the list with
) irrelevant material, something you're on my watch list for doing
) repeatedly.
Well, I don't have any interest in wasting my time writing irrelevant
material. It has occured to me however, that this would be a great forum
for an anthroposophist or several anthroposophists to flood with
anthroposophically relevant material in an effort to totally divert the
list's purpose but I have no interest in this whatsoever. I am, as a
matter of fact, busy posting jokes to the anthroposophy site which is
also clearly unappreciated.
) )Here, for the benefit of Peter is another example of a chaistic
) )structure. To make this otherwise pointless exercise more meaningful,
) )I'll start out with a well-known example from the Bible.
)
) Clarifying your intention always helps; sarcasm rarely does.
I agree. I parroted Peter here not to be sarcastic but in an effort to
clarify my intention-if you feel that my writing is the major source of
misunderstanding then I would be glad to adopt Peter's or another
critic's instead.-Val
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 09:49:59 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Star Sade backs bid for private school to go free
DAN DUGAN:
) ) An excellent question. I have an opinion, but I'm not expert in child
)) development. I wish we had someone who is to advise us.
VALERIE WALSH:
)I agree, Dan that you are not an expert in child development. I take it
)that no one else here is either-yet we all have opinions. Someone
)complained awhile back that this list was entirely opinion based but as
)I see it, the entire world is run not by knowledge, or creativity, but
)by opinions.
True, but they aren't all equal in value.
) ) My opinion is that children should be constantly exposed to literacy
)) from toddling onward, as much as they can handle.
)
)That sounds extreme to me possibly because my children all "toddled"
)quite early-the oldest took her first steps when she was eight months
)old. But I assume you base your opinion on the literature you read that
)make the distinction between a stage of infancy and a stage of
)toddlerhood.
)
) The attempts of
)) Waldorf kindergartens to avoid contact with the written word are
)) bizarre and border on abuse.
)
)Is this also your opinion or does this represent a bias or prejudice
)against Waldorf kindergartens or perhaps both?-Val
I am biased against Waldorf kindergartens because of this practice.
-Dan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:48:36 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Star Sade backs bid for private school to go free
Dan Dugan wrote:
) True, but they aren't all equal in value.
Again, we agree, Dan.
The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything
about the subject.~Marcus Aurelius
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2470
-- Topica Digest --
[NNA] Triodos und GLS Bank take 5m euro holding in Sekem Group
By dan dandugan.com
[NNA] Anthroposophical drugs prevention and therapy in Thailand
By dan dandugan.com
Re: [NNA] Anthroposophical drugs prevention and therapy in Thailand
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: [NNA] Anthroposophical drugs prevention and therapy in Thailand
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
Re: [NNA] Anthroposophical drugs prevention and therapy in Thailand
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: [NNA] Anthroposophical drugs prevention and therapy in Thailand
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:33:49 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: [NNA] Triodos und GLS Bank take 5m euro holding in Sekem Group
[The following is a press release from Network News Anthroposophy -- dD]
Triodos und GLS Bank take 5m euro holding in Sekem Group
NUREMBERG NNA) - The two leading ethical and ecological banks, the
German GLS Gemeinschaftsbank in Bochum and the Dutch Triodos Bank in
Zeist, have taken a holding in the Egyptian Sekem Group.
A corresponding agreement was signed at the world's largest organic
trade show, the BioFach in Nuremberg, Germany, last month.
According to the banks, their participation will take the form of a
stake of 2.5m euros each, amounting to about 20 percent of the Sekem
Group's shares. This will give each of the banks a seat on the
Group's supervisory board.
The Sekem Group is seen as a model for a sustainable, environmentally
friendly development model.
Both banks had worked closely with Sekem for several years and had
supported the company to develop into a prosperous and coherent
agricultural business, Triodos Bank said in a statement. "Over the
last ten years the company has enjoyed exponential growth," the
statement continued.
Thomas Jorberg, chairman of GLS Bank, welcomed the cooperative
approach of two of Europe's leading sustainable banks: "We are proud
to intensify our partnership and create a more direct link with the
Sekem Group."
Peter Blom, chairman of Triodos Bank, added: "Sekem proves that a
company can be successfully supported by a number of different
partners. Together we can expand across borders."
NNA/end/ung/cva
Item: 070304-01EN Date: 3 March 2007
Copyright 2007 News Network Anthroposophy Limited. All rights
reserved. See: www.nna-news.org/copyright/
More NNA reports at: www.nna-news.org/en/
*** comments follow
Sekem is an Anthroposphical center in Egypt. The way European Waldorf
schools claim to be Christian to reassure the local population, Sekem
fronts itself as Muslim for local consumption.
I note that the banks have been supporting Sekem, and now they are
taking over a substantial portion of the stock. I suspect that this
is a spin on failure--loans were not repaid and the banks are taking
stock in exchange, or rather in hope that something might be salvaged
with better management. Non-ideological banks would just foreclose,
but Anthroposophists want to take care of each other.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 15:12:29 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: [NNA] Anthroposophical drugs prevention and therapy in Thailand
Anthroposophical drugs prevention and therapy in Thailand
BANGKOK (NNA) - A congress dealing with issues of
drugs prevention and therapy on the basis of the
anthroposophical understanding of the human being
took place for the first time in Bangkok at the
end of last year.
The congress was attended by 80 Thai judges,
including the highest judge for family law. A
doctor had specially travelled from the
Philippines to attend the meeting since the issue
of a holistic approach to drugs therapy is alive
there too. Congress speakers were Dr. Olaf Koob,
Noemi Böken and Jasmijn Mulder.
Dr. Olaf Koob, lecturer and well-known author of
various medical and psychological guides,
developed his therapy concept as the co-founder
of the Sieben Zwerge therapy centre on Lake
Constance in Germany: the work there is based the
anthroposophical understanding of the human being.
Noemi Böken is involved in various innovative
ventures with her international eurythmy
projects. It was, among other things, her work in
Bangkok's youth prison which led to the congress.
Jasmijn Mulder from Holland is currently working
as an art therapist at a Waldorf initiative in
Bangkok and contributed an introduction to
painting therapy to the congress.
Dr. Koob began by telling the two fairy tales of
Snow White and the Seven Dwarves and Sleeping
Beauty, which illustrate the two sides of the
drugs problem. He went on to describe the effects
of stimulant and sedative drugs and gave a
concrete introduction to the four phases of
therapy: agriculture, a trade, drama and the
integrative phase.
The participants followed his explanations with
interest and growing enthusiasm.
Aspects which were introduced and practiced
included form drawing and black and white
drawing. In eurythmy participants learned about
the inner aspects of the vowels. At the same time
elements from the work in the youth prison were
demonstrated and experienced.
The congress ended in Thai style with a
traditional dance and gifts for the speakers. The
closing ceremony was particularly moving, in
which each participant tied a cotton ribbon
blessed by a monk on each speaker.
The event was extensively reported in two Bangkok
newspapers, including an interview Dr. Koob.
There is currently great interest in introducing
the described measures as part of drugs
rehabilitation in Thailand and many opportunities
have opened up. Experienced people, such as
social and curative educationalists, Waldorf
teachers, farmers, are sought in Europe who would
have the time for and commitment to such a
project.
End/nna/wsh/bk/cva
Item: 070304-02EN Date: 4 March 2007
Copyright 2007 News Network Anthroposophy
Limited. All rights reserved. See:
www.nna-news.org/copyright/
More NNA reports at: www.nna-news.org/en/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 22:06:42 -0800
From: Walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: [NNA] Anthroposophical drugs prevention and therapy in Thailand
Brings back memories . . .
I attended a Dr. Olaf Koob lecture many years ago during my Waldorf Daze.
I'll never forget it. He was an excellent, charismatic speaker with enough
wit and humour to keep the crowd happy and attentive. The "Dr." tag helped.
When he began to speak about new and exciting discoveries, I paid extra
special attention and when he started to explain that the heart is NOT a
pump, I was fascinated. After the lecture I hurried home to do a little
research as I was sure this discovery would be major news and I thought I
had somehow missed it. Online research and a few phone calls informed me
that the heart was still concerned a pump in real medical circles. So what
on earth was the doctor going on about . . . ? More research shed light on
the matter. I think it would have been a better idea for Olaf Koob to
explain his/Steiner's theory as just that - a "theory" with no real basis in
medical science. Koob was careful enough to avoid most of the odd Anthro
stuff while legitimizing his stance by using medical sounding words.
While I'm in favour of good programs to help with problems of addiction, I'd
be very wary of having Anthroposophists work with young people in prisons.
Let's hope those people responsible for making such decisions have some
understanding of Anthroposophy. An open dialogue at the congress, for
example, could include such topics as the "efficacy of faith based occult
practises in youth detention centres."
-Walden
Dan forwarded:
Anthroposophical drugs prevention and therapy in Thailand
BANGKOK (NNA) - A congress dealing with issues of
drugs prevention and therapy on the basis of the
anthroposophical understanding of the human being
took place for the first time in Bangkok at the
end of last year.
The congress was attended by 80 Thai judges,
including the highest judge for family law. A
doctor had specially travelled from the
Philippines to attend the meeting since the issue
of a holistic approach to drugs therapy is alive
there too. Congress speakers were Dr. Olaf Koob,
Noemi Böken and Jasmijn Mulder.
Dr. Olaf Koob, lecturer and well-known author of
various medical and psychological guides,
developed his therapy concept as the co-founder
of the Sieben Zwerge therapy centre on Lake
Constance in Germany: the work there is based the
anthroposophical understanding of the human being.
Noemi Böken is involved in various innovative
ventures with her international eurythmy
projects. It was, among other things, her work in
Bangkok's youth prison which led to the congress.
Jasmijn Mulder from Holland is currently working
as an art therapist at a Waldorf initiative in
Bangkok and contributed an introduction to
painting therapy to the congress.
Dr. Koob began by telling the two fairy tales of
Snow White and the Seven Dwarves and Sleeping
Beauty, which illustrate the two sides of the
drugs problem. He went on to describe the effects
of stimulant and sedative drugs and gave a
concrete introduction to the four phases of
therapy: agriculture, a trade, drama and the
integrative phase.
The participants followed his explanations with
interest and growing enthusiasm.
Aspects which were introduced and practiced
included form drawing and black and white
drawing. In eurythmy participants learned about
the inner aspects of the vowels. At the same time
elements from the work in the youth prison were
demonstrated and experienced.
The congress ended in Thai style with a
traditional dance and gifts for the speakers. The
closing ceremony was particularly moving, in
which each participant tied a cotton ribbon
blessed by a monk on each speaker.
The event was extensively reported in two Bangkok
newspapers, including an interview Dr. Koob.
There is currently great interest in introducing
the described measures as part of drugs
rehabilitation in Thailand and many opportunities
have opened up. Experienced people, such as
social and curative educationalists, Waldorf
teachers, farmers, are sought in Europe who would
have the time for and commitment to such a
project.
End/nna/wsh/bk/cva
Item: 070304-02EN Date: 4 March 2007
Copyright 2007 News Network Anthroposophy
Limited. All rights reserved. See:
www.nna-news.org/copyright/
More NNA reports at: www.nna-news.org/en/
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:39:14 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: [NNA] Anthroposophical drugs prevention and therapy in Thailand
Walden wrote:
)
) Brings back memories . . .
)
) I attended a Dr. Olaf Koob lecture many years ago during my Waldorf
) Daze.
) I'll never forget it. He was an excellent, charismatic speaker with
) enough
) wit and humour to keep the crowd happy and attentive. The "Dr." tag
) helped.
) When he began to speak about new and exciting discoveries, I paid extra
) special attention and when he started to explain that the heart is NOT a
)
) pump, I was fascinated.
What were the new and exciting discoveries? What was so fascinating to
you about the heart not being a pump?
After the lecture I hurried home to do a little
) research as I was sure this discovery would be major news and I thought
) I
) had somehow missed it.
Why were you sure of that, Walden?
Online research and a few phone calls informed me
) that the heart was still concerned a pump in real medical circles.
The "Dr. tag" led you to believe that medical circles now believed
otherwise?
So what
) on earth was the doctor going on about . . . ? More research shed light
) on
) the matter.
Did it include any research into the matter of the heart not being a
pump? I mean I'm sure you found several articles on the heart being a
pump but what did you read to the contrary?-Val
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 23:48:57 -0800
From: Walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: [NNA] Anthroposophical drugs prevention and therapy in Thailand
As usual, Val, your comments/questions fit somewhere between goofy and
nonsensical. Been there/done that in sincere efforts to have discussions
with you in the past and I no loner have time or interest.
-Walden
)
) Walden wrote:
))
)) Brings back memories . . .
))
)) I attended a Dr. Olaf Koob lecture many years ago during my Waldorf
)) Daze.
)) I'll never forget it. He was an excellent, charismatic speaker with
)) enough
)) wit and humour to keep the crowd happy and attentive. The "Dr." tag
)) helped.
)) When he began to speak about new and exciting discoveries, I paid extra
)) special attention and when he started to explain that the heart is NOT a
))
)) pump, I was fascinated.
)
) What were the new and exciting discoveries? What was so fascinating to
) you about the heart not being a pump?
)
) After the lecture I hurried home to do a little
)) research as I was sure this discovery would be major news and I thought
)) I
)) had somehow missed it.
)
) Why were you sure of that, Walden?
)
) Online research and a few phone calls informed me
)) that the heart was still concerned a pump in real medical circles.
)
) The "Dr. tag" led you to believe that medical circles now believed
) otherwise?
)
) So what
)) on earth was the doctor going on about . . . ? More research shed light
)) on
)) the matter.
)
) Did it include any research into the matter of the heart not being a
) pump? I mean I'm sure you found several articles on the heart being a
) pump but what did you read to the contrary?-Val
)
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
) New threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:10:32 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: [NNA] Anthroposophical drugs prevention and therapy in Thailand
Walden wrote:
)
) As usual, Val, your comments/questions fit somewhere between goofy and
) nonsensical. Been there/done that in sincere efforts to have discussions
)
) with you in the past and I no loner have time or interest.
Goofy and non-sensical like beauty then may lie in the eye of the
beholder. Here's to you, Walden and your beautiful eyes.-Val
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2471
-- Topica Digest --
Susan Weber exhorts teachers to be true to Steiner
By dan dandugan.com
Biodynamic steak
By kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au
Re: Biodynamic steak
By emanuel.landeholm gmail.com
Hans Merkel on Poland, October 1939
By pstaud hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 19:53:50 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Susan Weber exhorts teachers to be true to Steiner
Excerpts from "A Whitsun Letter" by Susan Weber, in Gateways: A
Newsletter of the Waldorf Early Childhood Association of North
America, Fall/Winter 2006, Issue 51, pp. 3-4.
"Rather than one stream arising out of our observation and study of
the nature of the human being, his life between death and rebirth and
death once again, we now hear and speak of Pikler- or RIE-influenced
programs, of 'hybrid' programs, to name a few. I suggest that rather
than look for labels to differentiate approaches, that we look
instead to the whole, to the fundamental sources of Waldorf early
childhood education, and then determine whether our work as teachers
is striving in this direction"
***
"Without the fine soul-touching that Rudolf Steiner describes in the
teachers' meditations, without carrying the profound picture of the
nature of the human being that he describes, none of our work is
Waldorf education."
***
"There are Michaelic individuals throughout the earth who work on
behalf of the incarnating human being, who have tremendous insights
to offer to us as Waldorf educators. It is our privilege and
responsibility when possible to meet them, to develop working
relationships with them. These opportunities serve us well to extend
our insights, to offer contrasts that enable us to become clearer
about essential elements of our understanding and practices."
***
"Nothing in Waldorf education is meant to be codified or formulaic.
How could it be, in any external material way, based as it is upon
our deepest possible striving to understand the human being as a
spiritual, reincarnating individuality engaged in particular
experiences in a earthly life?"
posted by Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 18:28:10 +0000
From: Keith McLean (kmlightseeker yahoo.com.au)
Subject: Biodynamic steak
Hi everyone,
Recently enjoyed a biodynamically produced steak at home. Nice flavours,
so the biodynmaic farmers must be doing something right in this
department (at least in this instance).
Regards,
Keith
Tyranny begets tyranny.
- K Mclean
------
Our knowledge has made us cynical,
our cleverness hard and unkind.
We think too much and feel too little:
More than machinery we need humanity;
More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness.
Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost.
- Charlie Chaplin ("The Great Dictator" [1940])
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 22:40:39 +0100
From: Emanuel Landeholm (emanuel.landeholm gmail.com)
Subject: Re: Biodynamic steak
On mån, 2007-03-05 at 18:28 +0000, Keith McLean wrote:
) Hi everyone,
)
)
) Recently enjoyed a biodynamically produced steak at home. Nice flavours,
) so the biodynmaic farmers must be doing something right in this
) department (at least in this instance).
That made me think of just what is involved in preparing a
biodynamically produced steak. Favourable alignments of various heavenly
bodies, homeopathic quantities of pieces of oak bark put inside the head
of a domestic (!) animal along with other strange "preparations" etc.
The non-antroposophic mind boggles...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 17:32:07 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Hans Merkel on Poland, October 1939
Hello critics and un-critics,
For what it’s worth, I started this post before Keith’s recent reflections
on biodynamic products came through, and though I have lots to say on the
political history of biodynamics, that’s not what prompted the present post.
Instead I wanted to report a little bit on a Nazi-era article I recently
read, written by someone who was an anthroposophist, an active promoter of
biodynamic agriculture, and a Nazi.
Since it connects with our aborted discussion of the Upper Silesian
conflict, I thought I’d share a brief aside on a 1939 article about Poland
by anthroposophist author Hans Merkel. The article appeared in the journal
Odal, the primary Nazi periodical on agricultural issues, published by
Hitler’s Minister of Agriculture, Richard Walther Darré. The bibliographical
details are as follows: Hans Merkel, “Die polnische Ernährungswirtschaft”
(“The Polish Food Economy”), Odal vol. 8 no. 10, October 1939, pp. 887-892.
Appearing in the immediate wake of the Nazi invasion and partial occupation
of Poland at the outset of World War II, Merkel’s article reviews the
prospects for German cultivation of its newly acquired territories and their
suitability to the agrarian-racial utopia envisioned by Darré and his
comrades. Merkel emphasizes that much of the newly Germanized lands had been
part of Germany until the Versailles treaty ceded them to Poland after World
War I, and he makes much of the supposed deterioration of agricultural
production of these rightfully German lands under Polish sovereignty. With
the victory of Hitler’s armed forces, Merkel announces, the landscape of
“the German East” is now unified again, thus correcting “the senseless
borders imposed by the Diktat of Versailles.” (p. 892)
I think this article is among other things a good example of retrospective
anthroposophist views on the loss of German territory after WWI as seen in
the strikingly different context of the opening phase of WWII. As part of
the post-WWI Versailles settlement, not just part of Upper Silesia but also
large portions of West Prussia and Pomerania were annexed to Poland. In
October 1939, Merkel celebrates the fact that this ostensible injustice has
now finally been redressed via Blitzkrieg. This is one of many telling
instances of anthroposophical agriculture finding a congenial partner within
the Nazi hierarchy.
Some biographical information on Hans Merkel: born in 1902, Merkel was by
his own account a member of the Anthroposophical Society until 1934, the
year before it was dissolved by order of Reinhard Heydrich. He continued to
maintain his connections with anthroposophical circles after 1945 as well.
Merkel was trained as a lawyer and focused on agricultural policy. He was an
SS officer, joining the SS in 1936 on an unusual recommendation from Himmler
(Merkel failed the SS applicant health test and had to be specially
appointed). In the 1930s he was a high official on Darré’s staff, one of
several anthroposophist members of Darré’s entourage and one of several
promoters of biodynamic agriculture within the agriculture ministry and its
related party and state agencies during the Nazi era. When Darré was put on
trial at Nuremberg after the war, Merkel was his defense lawyer. Basic
information about his role can be found in Anna Bramwell’s notably
sympathetic biography of Darré (Blood and Soil: Walther Darré and Hitler’s
‘Green Party’, Bourne End 1985). For more general background accessible
online, I recommend a fine 1999 article by Steve Chase:
http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/oct1999chase.htm
For those who read German and are interested in Merkel’s other Nazi-era
publications, the following are representative:
Hans Merkel, Agrarpolitik (Leipzig 1942)
Hans Merkel und O. Wöhrmann, Deutsches Bauernrecht (Leipzig 1942)
Greetings to all,
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month.
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------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2472
-- Topica Digest --
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter how ba
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
Re: Southern Cross Review Nr. 52
By dan dandugan.com
Hans Hahne and anthroposophy
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter how ba
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter how ba
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:23:02 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter how ba
Q. How many anthroposophists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A. I don't know. Steiner never gave an indication.
Q. How many Waldorf teachers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A. Seven: One to read the verse, one to light the candle, one to sound
the chime, one to compose the request to the administrator, two to
review the request to the administrator, and one to lead the closing
song.
Q. How many Waldorf students does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A. None. That doesn't enter the curriculum until the higher grades.
Q. How many Waldorf parents does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A. Two: One to consult with the teacher to decide that natural lighting
would be more beneficial to the child and one to screw the darn thing in
anyway.
Q. How many Waldorf school board members does it take to screw in a
light bulb?
A. Three: One to phone the members not present at the meeting to ensure
a consensus, one to find a volunteer, and one to follow up.
Q. How many Waldorf school graduates does it take to screw in a light
bulb?
A. One.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:50:57 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Southern Cross Review Nr. 52
Our correspondent Frank Smith edits the always-interesting Southern
Cross Review, a web magazine.
http://southerncrossreview.org/52
In this month's issue there's a provocative article by Don Cruse,
"Karl Popper and Owen Barfield: And the Embattled Ideal of an 'Open
Society'"
http://southerncrossreview.org/52/cruse-popper.htm
In it Cruse presents his Anthroposophical arguments against the
theory of evolution. He's written on that theme several times before.
I'd like to invite Don to join us here for a discussion of the
article. Frank, could you relay the invitation?
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:40:37 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Hans Hahne and anthroposophy
Hello again eveybody,
this post is mostly a preview to a more important topic, namely the early
career of Friedrich Benesch, one of the most prominent German
anthroposophists of the twentieth century. I'll get to Benesch in a day or
so. For now, some background on Benesch's father in law, Hans Hahne.
Hans Hahne (1875–1935) was a fervent Nazi and one of the party’s chief
authorities on the related areas of prehistory, archeology, and early
folklore. He joined the party in the 1920s, well before 1933, and after the
Nazis came to power Hahne was named rector of the University of Halle. He is
considered one of the leading examples of a dyed in the wool Nazi scientist.
There is some very good literature on Hahne, though most of it is
unsurprisingly in German; an excellent place to start is Uta Halle's book
“Die Externsteine sind bis auf weiteres germanisch!” Prähistorische
Archäologie im Dritten Reich (Bielefeld 2002), which discusses Hahne at some
length; see e.g. pp. 35, 104, 169. For very helpful background in English
see Ingo Wiwjorra, “German archaeology and its relation to nationalism and
racism” in Margarita Diaz-Andreu and Timothy Champion, eds., Nationalism and
Archaeology in Europe (London 1996), pp. 164-188, a fine examination of the
influence of race ideology on pre-historic studies Germany.
The best scholarship on Hahne is by Irene Ziehe, who wrote her dissertation
on his career and teachings. A concise summary is available in Irene Ziehe,
“Hans Hanhe (1875 -1953), Protagonist eines völkischen Weltbildes” in Achim
Leube, ed., Prähistorie und Nationalsozialismus (Heidelberg 2002), pp.
419-427. In her discussion of Hahne’s primary influences, Ziehe strongly
emphasizes the impact of Rudolf Steiner and anthroposophy on Hahne’s
thinking (see in particular pp. 421-425). She especially underlines the
importance of Steiner’s holism and anti-materialism in shaping Hahne’s work.
Steiner's occult approach to prehistoric claims, involving Atlantis, Aryans,
the early Teutonic tribes, and the cosmic significance of racial and ethnic
evolution, displays sustained parallels with Hahne's theories. Hahne never
met Steiner, though he did see him speak. As far as I know, Hahne himself
was not actively involved in anthroposophical affairs.
The book-length version of Ziehe's research on Hahne is even more fruitful
regarding his connections to anthroposophy: Irene Ziehe, Hans Hahne:
Biographie eines völkischen Wissenschaftlers (Halle 1996). The book's
bibliography, for example, lists far more works by Steiner than by any other
author besides Hahne himself. Ziehe discusses Steiner’s influence on Hahne
throughout the book; see in particular pp. 38-42, 17, 59, 73, 100. Ziehe is
very thorough in tracing the contours of Hahne’s racism, the core of his
worldview. Her discussion of Hahne’s adoption of anthroposophical cosmology
is quite detailed, and she relates this factor very directly to Hahne’s
Germanocentric theories. In this sense, Hahne as Nazi scientist might be
considered an important example of the impact of Steiner's teachings beyond
the confines of anthroposphy proper.
Hahne’s influence within Nazi circles continued after his death in 1935; for
example, the late 1935 and early 1936 issues of the journal Germanien:
Monatshefte für Vorgeschichte zur Erkenntnis deutschen Wesens carried a
series of articles by and about the recently deceased Hahne. In 1936 this
journal was absorbed by the Ahnenerbe, the SS research institute dedicated
to studies of prehistory, mythology, racial history, esotericism, Atlantis,
and similar themes. This brings us to Hahne's son in law Benesch, whose
Nazi-era documents are preserved in the files of the Ahnenerbe. More on
Benesch's compromised past to follow shortly.
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 00:20:13 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter how ba
Here's one I read recently on the Steiner Yahoo list:
Two people die at the same time, one an anthroposophist and one not.
So on the way up they come to a signpost- jupiter I on the left and I
lecture by R. Steiner on Jupiter on the right- and the
anthroposophist turned right!
Val
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 05:31:48 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter how ba
Top Ten Anthroposophical Pick-up Lines:
I didn't believe in destiny until I met you.
Did I mention that my great uncle was a personal acquaintance of Rudolf
Steiner's?
I have some extra beeswax. Would you like me to warm some up for you?
I've read the Philosophy of Freedom 104 times, but there's still parts
of it that I don't understand.
You know they say you've never really gone out until you've dated an
anthroposophist.
Would you like to come to my house and see my collection of wool roving?
Am I the only one who sees the sign of the beast in the Volkswagon logo?
You look a lot like... (Lucifer, Marie Steiner, Ita Wegman, Elizabeth
Vreede, etc.)
Are your feet tired? Because you've been performing eurythmy in my mind
all day long.
Would you be interested in seeing my flute case? I knitted it myself.
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2473
-- Topica Digest --
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter how ba
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
RE: [NNA] Anthroposophical drugs prevention and therapy in Thailand
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
RE: [NNA] Anthroposophical drugs prevention and therapy in Thailand
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter how ba
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
Friedrich Benesch, Nazi and anthroposophist
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: Friedrich Benesch, Nazi and anthroposophist
By mejhowell bigpond.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 17:42:01 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter how ba
An anthroposophist, a Waldorf critic and a hedonist were captured by
cannibals and taken to a heavily guarded hut deep in the jungle.
Prepared to die a brutal and agonizing death they were relieved when the
chief told them that though the tribe did intend to eat them and use
their skin for a canoe that they would leave it to the three white men
to kill themselves with the weapon of their own choosing.
The anthroposophist immediately fell upon his Michaelic sword, the
Waldorf Critic took out his minimally-loaded pistol and was, after
several attempts, finally successful in blowing his brains out, and the
headonist took a fork from his backback and began to viciously poke
himself everywhere. Soon blood was flowing from his legs, arms, face,
back, stomach, and sides.
The chief exclaimed, "What on earth are you doing?"
To which the hedonist replied, "So much for your canoe."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 17:58:08 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: [NNA] Anthroposophical drugs prevention and therapy in Thailand
Walden wrote:
)
) As usual, Val, your comments/questions fit somewhere between goofy and
) nonsensical. Been there/done that in sincere efforts to have discussions
)
) with you in the past and I no loner have time or interest.
Dear Walden,
FYI, just so you know, I did do a quick search on this subject and
found, as I suspected, that the heart is in fact not a pump. Since it
never has been a pump I figured as much but I gave you the benefit of
the doubt and looked it up anyway. Your opinion that the heart is a pump
appears to be based on a lack of comprehension of both analogy and
anatomy. Sorry to hear of your loner status.
Sincerely,
Val
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:51:04 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: [NNA] Anthroposophical drugs prevention and therapy in Thailand
Valerie Walsh wrote:
) Dear Walden,
)
) FYI, just so you know, I did do a quick search on this subject and
) found, as I suspected, that the heart is in fact not a pump. Since it
) never has been a pump I figured as much but I gave you the benefit of
) the doubt and looked it up anyway. Your opinion that the heart is a pump
)
) appears to be based on a lack of comprehension of both analogy and
) anatomy. Sorry to hear of your loner status.
That made me think of just what is involved in the mechanical operation
of pneumatic and hydraulic pumps in place of the human heart. Favorable
augmenting of either one or both of the heart's ventricles. Internal
diaphragms hydraulically activated by a physiologically-controlled(!)
pacemaker pump systems along with and powered by a rechargeable battery
system, not to mention a seven hour surgery and numerous "preparations"
etc. The non-antroposophic mind boggles...
Heartfelt Regards,
Val
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 22:02:51 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter how ba
Top Ten Things You Won't Hear in Anthro Circles
The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard.
Your comments are pretentious, self deluded, self-serving,
incomprehensible, goofy, silly, non-sensical, and/or naive . To which
the appropriate anthroposophical response appears to be: My comments
appear pretentious, self-deluded, self-serving, incomprehensible, naive,
goofy, silly, and/or non-sensical to the uninitiated.
Think before you think.
We are so proud of Susie. She's only four and already reading all the
tabloid headlines at the supermarket check-out.
I think you should get your baby immunized just to be on the safe side.
Did you see that saucer that flew over town yesterday?
You make a lot more sense than Steiner.
When pi is squared you get pop tarts.
Did you know that Steiner modeled the first Goetheanum after Marie
Steiner's boobs?
If a person who plays a piano is called a pianist why isn't a person who
races cars called a racist?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 13:49:16 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Friedrich Benesch, Nazi and anthroposophist
This post is about the life and legacy of the prominent anthroposophist
Friedrich Benesch, whose Nazi past and its unexpected revelation by
non-anthroposophists presents a case study in how Steiner’s followers deal
with their own history.
Friedrich Benesch (1907-1991) was a leading figure in the Christian
Community, the forthrightly religious arm of anthroposophy. For thirty
years, beginning in the 1950s, he was the head of the seminary in Stuttgart
that trains the Christian Community’s priests. A very large proportion of
all Christian Community pastors alive today were trained directly by
Benesch. He appears to be popular with English-speaking anthroposophists as
well; his book Reverse Ritual: Spiritual Knowledge is True Communion, for
example, was published by the Anthroposophic Press in 2001, and there’s a
plug for several other publications by Benesch currently at the website of
the Christian Community in Australia and New Zealand.
In German-speaking Europe, meanwhile, Benesch is a generally revered figure
in anthroposophical circles. The quasi-official biography of him celebrates
his contributions to religious renewal (see the entry on Benesch in Bodo von
Plato, ed., Anthroposophie im 20. Jahrhundert: Ein Kulturimpuls in
biografischen Portäts, Dornach 2003). Not long after this biographical
description was published, anthroposophists became aware of Benesch’s Nazi
past through an article by historian Johan Böhm, who aside from being a
specialist on the region where Benesch lived until the end of WWII also
happened to be one of Benesch’s pupils in the high school where Benesch
taught in the early 1940s.
Since 2004, when Böhm’s supposedly new revelations (which I’ll survey in a
moment) were published, some of Benesch’s former colleagues and admirers
have been trying to account for the fact that nobody in the anthroposophical
movement seems to have noticed the rather high-profile former Nazi in their
midst. What’s more, Benesch’s extensive period as a militant Nazi did not
come before he embraced anthroposophy, but after, and indeed during his
intensive engagement with ‘spiritual science’. Several on-line
anthroposophical sources (including a brief appendix added to the internet
version of the biography cited above) now address the matter in decidedly
anguished tones.
The article that broke this unwelcome news within the anthroposophical
community is Johan Böhm, “Friedrich Benesch: Naturwissenschaftler,
Anthropologe, Theologe und Politiker” Halbjahresschrift für
südosteuropäische Geschichte, Literatur und Politik, vol. 16 no. 1 (May
2004), pp. 108-119. Böhm here reviews Benesch’s early career as a radical
Nazi activist in the ethnic German community in Romania. His research shows
that from 1934 to 1945 Benesch was a leader in the more extremist wing of
the regional Nazi party, the DVR, which opposed the more ‘moderate’ elements
in the Romanian-German Nazi movement. Benesch's Nazi activities continued
even while he worked as a pastor (though not yet a Christian Community
pastor) and conducted graduate studies with Professor Hans Hahne and his
colleagues in Halle, where Benesch focused on racial ethnography.
According to Böhm's very thorough account, during the 1930s Benesch was not
merely a member of the ultra-Nazi DVR, he was one of its principal figures.
While Böhm dates Benesch's involvement in Nazi politics to 1934, Benesch
himself gave a considerably earlier date in his 1941 dissertation at the
Univeristy of Halle. Here Benesch writes: "Since 1928 I have been a member
of the National Socialist movement for renewal among the Germans in
Romania." (Friedrich Benesch, Die Festung Hutberg: Eine jungnordische
Mischsiedlung, Halle 1941, "Lebenslauf")
Perhaps the most interesting aspect of Böhm’s 2004 article is his personal
testimony about the content of Benesch’s classes in the Romanian-German high
school in the early 1940s. According to Böhm, Benesch placed racial theory
at the center of his teaching, and emphatically propagated National
Socialism to the pupils. (These parts of Böhm’s article are not mentioned in
anthroposophist responses.) This is consistent with other historical
evidence about Benesch’s activities at the time. For instance, at a 1936 DVR
gathering that Benesch organized, he gave a lecture on the “racial history
of the Teutons”. And in 1939 he applied to work with the SS research
institute, the Ahnenerbe, on a project about “Trees and forests in
Aryan-Germanic spiritual and cultural history”.
The records of the Ahnenerbe, housed at the German Federal Archives in
Berlin, contain a substantial file regarding Benesch, which I read through
last week. (The archival signature is Bundesarchiv Berlin, DS / G113:
457-492.) Among other things, these documents show that Benesch joined the
SS in July 1939. (Both recent anthroposophist sources and the Böhm article
say he joined the Waffen-SS, but in fact the files refer to the regular SS.)
In 1941 he was appointed head of the Nazi party organization in his home
county in Romania. It was Böhm’s 2004 article that first brought these
records to the attention of anthroposophists and Christian Community
officials.
Among the more intriguing questions surrounding this sordid affair is: Why
did it take this long for Benesch’s friends, co-workers, students and
admirers to find out basic information about his early career? His SS files,
for example, have been available for decades through the Berlin Document
Center and later the Federal Archives, and are by no means difficult to
track down. Moreover, Böhm’s 2004 article was hardly his first mention of
Benesch’s Nazi activities. Two of Böhm’s earlier books – standard works on
the community in which Benesch lived and worked in the Nazi era – discuss
Benesch’s role as a militant Nazi in detail; see Johan Böhm, Das
nationalsozialistische Deutschland und die Deutsche Volksgruppe in Rumänien
1936-1944: Das Verhältnis der Deutschen Volksgruppe zum Dritten Reich und
zum rumänischen Staat sowie der interne Widerstreit zwischen den politischen
Gruppen (Frankfurt 1985), pp. 41-42, 53, 138-139; and Böhm, Die Deuteschen
in Rumänien und das Dritte Reich 1933-1940 (Frankfurt 1999), pp. 149,
272-273. These works contain extensive information on Benesch’s position
within the DVR and so forth.
In addition, it was no secret that Benesch was married to Sunhilt Hahne,
daughter of Nazi academic Hans Hahne, who was also Benesch’s initial
doctoral advisor. As my previous post pointed out, the history of Hahne’s
intense engagement with anthroposophical doctrines has been readily
accessible for years. Furthermore, Benesch’s own 1941 dissertation not only
employs Nazi racial terminology but openly declares Benesch’s commitment to
Nazism in the brief autobiographical notice at the conclusion of the text.
This dissertation was not hidden away in some university vault; a copy of it
has been publicly available at the state library here in Berlin all along.
But even anthroposophist sources noted Benesch’s far-right political
inclinations long before 2004, without however making an effort to look very
far into their extent and character. In an Afterword to a collection of
Benesch’s lectures published by the Christian Community publishing house in
1993 under the title Leben mit der Erde, Christian Community leader
Hans-Werner Schroeder discussed Benesch’s past at some length, including his
early involvement in the radical nationalist and racist völkisch youth
movement; his fondness for the ‘Nordic-Germanic’ nonsense of Nazi race
theorist Herman Wirth, founding director of the Ahnenerbe; his work with and
personal relationship with Hans Hahne; and his participation in the
Artamanen, the infamous “blood and soil” group that produced several later
Nazi leaders, including Himmler, Darré, and Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höß.
It is hard to tell whether Schroeder, writing not long after Benesch’s
death, considered these merely run of the mill political commitments for a
young anthroposophist, or if he was completely unaware of what these groups
stood for. An equally puzzling conundrum is just what anthroposophist
readers of Schroeder’s account made of these biographical facts, and why
none of them bothered to inquire further into the matter. Schroeder’s
Afterword, by the way, also makes entirely clear that Benesch’s dedication
to anthroposophy was central to all of his engagements throughout the 1930s
and 1940s.
The lesson to be learned here may not be so much that anthroposophists could
easily be Nazis and Nazis could easily be anthroposophists; there are dozens
of other examples of that particular circumstance. Nor is Benesch’s own
post-war silence and denial especially surprising. What is perhaps more
interesting in this case is the blindness of latter-day anthroposophists to
the history of their own colleagues, indeed their own celebrities, their
remarkable disinterest in examining this history through commonly available
sources, and their pained surprise when the suppressed past finally rises to
their attention. In light of these dynamics, the obvious question is how
many other Friedrich Benesches are lurking within the ranks of twentieth
century anthroposophy.
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
Win a Zune™—make MSN® your homepage for your chance to win!
http://homepage.msn.com/zune?icid=hmetagline
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 15:15:39 +1100
From: "Michael Howell" (mejhowell bigpond.com)
Subject: Re: Friedrich Benesch, Nazi and anthroposophist
So what.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 6:49 AM
Subject: Friedrich Benesch, Nazi and anthroposophist
This post is about the life and legacy of the prominent anthroposophist
Friedrich Benesch, whose Nazi past and its unexpected revelation by
non-anthroposophists presents a case study in how Steiner's followers deal
with their own history.
Friedrich Benesch (1907-1991) was a leading figure in the Christian
Community, the forthrightly religious arm of anthroposophy. For thirty
years, beginning in the 1950s, he was the head of the seminary in Stuttgart
that trains the Christian Community's priests. A very large proportion of
all Christian Community pastors alive today were trained directly by
Benesch. He appears to be popular with English-speaking anthroposophists as
well; his book Reverse Ritual: Spiritual Knowledge is True Communion, for
example, was published by the Anthroposophic Press in 2001, and there's a
plug for several other publications by Benesch currently at the website of
the Christian Community in Australia and New Zealand.
In German-speaking Europe, meanwhile, Benesch is a generally revered figure
in anthroposophical circles. The quasi-official biography of him celebrates
his contributions to religious renewal (see the entry on Benesch in Bodo von
Plato, ed., Anthroposophie im 20. Jahrhundert: Ein Kulturimpuls in
biografischen Portäts, Dornach 2003). Not long after this biographical
description was published, anthroposophists became aware of Benesch's Nazi
past through an article by historian Johan Böhm, who aside from being a
specialist on the region where Benesch lived until the end of WWII also
happened to be one of Benesch's pupils in the high school where Benesch
taught in the early 1940s.
Since 2004, when Böhm's supposedly new revelations (which I'll survey in a
moment) were published, some of Benesch's former colleagues and admirers
have been trying to account for the fact that nobody in the anthroposophical
movement seems to have noticed the rather high-profile former Nazi in their
midst. What's more, Benesch's extensive period as a militant Nazi did not
come before he embraced anthroposophy, but after, and indeed during his
intensive engagement with 'spiritual science'. Several on-line
anthroposophical sources (including a brief appendix added to the internet
version of the biography cited above) now address the matter in decidedly
anguished tones.
The article that broke this unwelcome news within the anthroposophical
community is Johan Böhm, "Friedrich Benesch: Naturwissenschaftler,
Anthropologe, Theologe und Politiker" Halbjahresschrift für
südosteuropäische Geschichte, Literatur und Politik, vol. 16 no. 1 (May
2004), pp. 108-119. Böhm here reviews Benesch's early career as a radical
Nazi activist in the ethnic German community in Romania. His research shows
that from 1934 to 1945 Benesch was a leader in the more extremist wing of
the regional Nazi party, the DVR, which opposed the more 'moderate' elements
in the Romanian-German Nazi movement. Benesch's Nazi activities continued
even while he worked as a pastor (though not yet a Christian Community
pastor) and conducted graduate studies with Professor Hans Hahne and his
colleagues in Halle, where Benesch focused on racial ethnography.
According to Böhm's very thorough account, during the 1930s Benesch was not
merely a member of the ultra-Nazi DVR, he was one of its principal figures.
While Böhm dates Benesch's involvement in Nazi politics to 1934, Benesch
himself gave a considerably earlier date in his 1941 dissertation at the
Univeristy of Halle. Here Benesch writes: "Since 1928 I have been a member
of the National Socialist movement for renewal among the Germans in
Romania." (Friedrich Benesch, Die Festung Hutberg: Eine jungnordische
Mischsiedlung, Halle 1941, "Lebenslauf")
Perhaps the most interesting aspect of Böhm's 2004 article is his personal
testimony about the content of Benesch's classes in the Romanian-German high
school in the early 1940s. According to Böhm, Benesch placed racial theory
at the center of his teaching, and emphatically propagated National
Socialism to the pupils. (These parts of Böhm's article are not mentioned in
anthroposophist responses.) This is consistent with other historical
evidence about Benesch's activities at the time. For instance, at a 1936 DVR
gathering that Benesch organized, he gave a lecture on the "racial history
of the Teutons". And in 1939 he applied to work with the SS research
institute, the Ahnenerbe, on a project about "Trees and forests in
Aryan-Germanic spiritual and cultural history".
The records of the Ahnenerbe, housed at the German Federal Archives in
Berlin, contain a substantial file regarding Benesch, which I read through
last week. (The archival signature is Bundesarchiv Berlin, DS / G113:
457-492.) Among other things, these documents show that Benesch joined the
SS in July 1939. (Both recent anthroposophist sources and the Böhm article
say he joined the Waffen-SS, but in fact the files refer to the regular SS.)
In 1941 he was appointed head of the Nazi party organization in his home
county in Romania. It was Böhm's 2004 article that first brought these
records to the attention of anthroposophists and Christian Community
officials.
Among the more intriguing questions surrounding this sordid affair is: Why
did it take this long for Benesch's friends, co-workers, students and
admirers to find out basic information about his early career? His SS files,
for example, have been available for decades through the Berlin Document
Center and later the Federal Archives, and are by no means difficult to
track down. Moreover, Böhm's 2004 article was hardly his first mention of
Benesch's Nazi activities. Two of Böhm's earlier books - standard works on
the community in which Benesch lived and worked in the Nazi era - discuss
Benesch's role as a militant Nazi in detail; see Johan Böhm, Das
nationalsozialistische Deutschland und die Deutsche Volksgruppe in Rumänien
1936-1944: Das Verhältnis der Deutschen Volksgruppe zum Dritten Reich und
zum rumänischen Staat sowie der interne Widerstreit zwischen den politischen
Gruppen (Frankfurt 1985), pp. 41-42, 53, 138-139; and Böhm, Die Deuteschen
in Rumänien und das Dritte Reich 1933-1940 (Frankfurt 1999), pp. 149,
272-273. These works contain extensive information on Benesch's position
within the DVR and so forth.
In addition, it was no secret that Benesch was married to Sunhilt Hahne,
daughter of Nazi academic Hans Hahne, who was also Benesch's initial
doctoral advisor. As my previous post pointed out, the history of Hahne's
intense engagement with anthroposophical doctrines has been readily
accessible for years. Furthermore, Benesch's own 1941 dissertation not only
employs Nazi racial terminology but openly declares Benesch's commitment to
Nazism in the brief autobiographical notice at the conclusion of the text.
This dissertation was not hidden away in some university vault; a copy of it
has been publicly available at the state library here in Berlin all along.
But even anthroposophist sources noted Benesch's far-right political
inclinations long before 2004, without however making an effort to look very
far into their extent and character. In an Afterword to a collection of
Benesch's lectures published by the Christian Community publishing house in
1993 under the title Leben mit der Erde, Christian Community leader
Hans-Werner Schroeder discussed Benesch's past at some length, including his
early involvement in the radical nationalist and racist völkisch youth
movement; his fondness for the 'Nordic-Germanic' nonsense of Nazi race
theorist Herman Wirth, founding director of the Ahnenerbe; his work with and
personal relationship with Hans Hahne; and his participation in the
Artamanen, the infamous "blood and soil" group that produced several later
Nazi leaders, including Himmler, Darré, and Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höß.
It is hard to tell whether Schroeder, writing not long after Benesch's
death, considered these merely run of the mill political commitments for a
young anthroposophist, or if he was completely unaware of what these groups
stood for. An equally puzzling conundrum is just what anthroposophist
readers of Schroeder's account made of these biographical facts, and why
none of them bothered to inquire further into the matter. Schroeder's
Afterword, by the way, also makes entirely clear that Benesch's dedication
to anthroposophy was central to all of his engagements throughout the 1930s
and 1940s.
The lesson to be learned here may not be so much that anthroposophists could
easily be Nazis and Nazis could easily be anthroposophists; there are dozens
of other examples of that particular circumstance. Nor is Benesch's own
post-war silence and denial especially surprising. What is perhaps more
interesting in this case is the blindness of latter-day anthroposophists to
the history of their own colleagues, indeed their own celebrities, their
remarkable disinterest in examining this history through commonly available
sources, and their pained surprise when the suppressed past finally rises to
their attention. In light of these dynamics, the obvious question is how
many other Friedrich Benesches are lurking within the ranks of twentieth
century anthroposophy.
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
Win a ZuneT-make MSN® your homepage for your chance to win!
http://homepage.msn.com/zune?icid=hmetagline
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/713 - Release Date: 7/03/2007
9:24 AM
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2474
-- Topica Digest --
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter how ba
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 19:51:11 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter how ba
Q. What do you get when you cross The Godfather with Rudolf Steiner?
A. An offer you can't understand.
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2475
-- Topica Digest --
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter how ba
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
RE: Friedrich Benesch, Nazi and anthroposophist
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 13:59:12 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter how ba
If you put two philosophers in a room together you're bound to get two
differing views, unless one of them is Rudolf Steiner, in which case
you'll get twelve views.-Val
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:29:50 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Friedrich Benesch, Nazi and anthroposophist
Michael Howell wrote:
)
) So what.
The question before us is this: How many additional Friedrich Beneschs
might lurk within the ranks of twentieth century anthroposophy.
Including the possibilities (in descending likelihood of probability) of
siblings, twining, and successful secret Nazi cloning experimentation
using Fred's DNA, I must say that I, personally, have no idea of the
extent of lurking Friedrich Beneschs. I'd like to address the question
from a phenomenological perspective, however this being the critics list
I do not have the time.-Val
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 2476
-- Topica Digest --
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter
how ba
By emanuel.landeholm gmail.com
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter how ba
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
Rudolf the Riot
By iankilburn bellsouth.net
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matterhow ba
By iankilburn bellsouth.net
Dugan's annual open house is Sunday March 11
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Friedrich Benesch, Nazi and anthroposophist
By iankilburn bellsouth.net
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matterhow ba
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
RE: Friedrich Benesch, Nazi and anthroposophist
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
RE: Rudolf the Riot
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
RE: Rudolf the Riot
By iankilburn bellsouth.net
Typo
By iankilburn bellsouth.net
Re: Rudolf the Riot
By powerofjoy2004 yahoo.com
Re: Typo
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
Re: Rudolf the Riot
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no
matterhow ba
By secretary waldorfcritics.org
RE: Rudolf the Riot
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
RE: Rudolf the Riot
By iankilburn bellsouth.net
RE: Rudolf the Riot
By iankilburn bellsouth.net
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matterhow ba
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
RE: Rudolf the Riot
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
Re: Typo
By mejhowell bigpond.com
RE: Rudolf the Riot
By iankilburn bellsouth.net
RE: Rudolf the Riot
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
RE: Rudolf the Riot
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
RE:You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matterhow bad
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matterhow bad
By iankilburn bellsouth.net
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matterhow bad
By iankilburn bellsouth.net
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matterhow bad
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matterhow bad
By isenhart7 yahoo.com
RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matterhow bad
By iankilburn bellsouth.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:25:59 +0100
From: Emanuel Landeholm (emanuel.landeholm gmail.com)
Subject: RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter
how ba
On fre, 2007-03-09 at 13:59 +0000, Valerie Walsh wrote:
)
) If you put two philosophers in a room together you're bound to get two
) differing views, unless one of them is Rudolf Steiner, in which case
) you'll get twelve views.-Val
If you put two philosophers in a room then one of them is not the later
Rudolf Steiner, but if one of them happens to be the early Steiner then
at least one of the philosophers is mediocre and non-notable.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 14:40:57 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matter how ba
Emanuel Landeholm wrote:
) If you put two philosophers in a room then one of them is not the later
) Rudolf Steiner, but if one of them happens to be the early Steiner then
) at least one of the philosophers is mediocre and non-notable.
Q. What is the difference between the human brain and a bucket of
excrement?
A. The bucket.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 21:22:28 +0000
From: Roger Rawlings (iankilburn bellsouth.net)
Subject: Rudolf the Riot
David Letterman’s Top Ten Jokes Told by R. Steiner:
10) “In having people do eurythmy, we link them directly to the
supersensible world.” [ART AS SPIRITUAL ACTIVITY, p. 247.]
9) “[A]n island like Great Britain swims in the sea and is held fast by
the forces of the stars. In actuality, such islands do not sit directly
upon a foundation; they swim and are held fast from outside.” [FACULTY
MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER, p. 607.]
8) “There are beings that can be seen with clairvoyant vision at many
spots in the depths of the earth...Many names have been given to them,
such as goblins, gnomes and so forth...Their nature prompts them to play
all sorts of tricks on man....” [NATURE SPIRITS, pp. 62-3.]
7) “[T]he brain and nerve system have nothing at all to do with actual
cognition....” [THE FOUNDATIONS OF HUMAN EXPERIENCE, p. 60.]
6) “[I]t is not that the planets move around the Sun, but these three,
Mercury, Venus, and the Earth, follow the Sun, and these three, Mars,
Jupiter, and Saturn, precede it.” [FACULTY MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF
STEINER., pp. 30-31.]
5) “[J]ust as natural forces build out of living matter the eyes and
ears of the physical body, so will organs of clairvoyance build
themselves....” [KNOWLEDGE OF THE HIGHER WORLDS AND ITS ATTAINMENT, p.
28.]
4) “The use of the French language quite certainly corrupts the soul.”
[FACULTY MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER, pp. 558.]
3) “In the course of its development, the good portion of humankind
will learn to use the Moon forces to transform the evil part [of
mankind] so that it can participate in further evolution as a distinct
earthly kingdom.” [AN OUTLINE OF ESOTERIC SCIENCE, p. 393.]
2) “[Science] sees the heart as a pump that pumps blood through the
body. Now there is nothing more absurd than believing this, for the
heart has nothing to do with pumping the blood.” [FREUD, JUNG, AND
SPIRITUAL PSYCHOLOGY, pp. 124-125.]
1) “If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will
become increasingly dense.... Blond hair actually bestows intelligence.
In the case of fair people, less nourishment is driven into the eyes and
hair; it remains instead in the brain and endows it with intelligence.
Brown- and dark-haired people drive the substances into their eyes and
hair that the fair people retain in their brains.” [HEALTH AND ILLNESS,
VOL. 1, pp. 85-86.]
Quite a kidder, our Rudolf. LOL.
Roger Rawlings
P.S. I apologize if this posting appears twice. I'm still trying to
master the Topica procedures.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 21:26:53 +0000
From: Roger Rawlings (iankilburn bellsouth.net)
Subject: RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matterhow ba
Valerie Walsh wrote:
)
)
) Emanuel Landeholm wrote:
)
) ) If you put two philosophers in a room then one of them is not the later
) ) Rudolf Steiner, but if one of them happens to be the early Steiner then
) ) at least one of the philosophers is mediocre and non-notable.
)
) Q. What is the difference between the human brain and a bucket of
) excrement?
)
) A. The bucket.
Anthroposophists give away the game when they reveal their disdain for
brains, rationality, and science (i.e., truth).
Roger Rawlings
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 09:56:58 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Cc: aapsf hotmail.com, benwithglasses gmail.com, brian audioguidance.net,
"marie caruso" (sonicfaery yahoo.com), cmwilmoth sbcglobal.net,
dan dandugan.com, "Gabriel Goldstein" (manjomang gmail.com),
Ed Ivey (ed edivey.com), jedeye mindspring.com, karinjunko gmail.com,
keith.burden usermail.com, kvkatz yahoo.com, laird djlaird.com,
octonomy yahoo.com, pollackv hotmail.com,
Sharon Perry (sluperry pacbell.net), siouxbabyblue yahoo.com,
studiohSF yahoogroups.com, thomasskunkel yahoo.com, turbojew2000 yahoo.com,
"Reuben Avery" (puffbunny gmail.com)
Subject: Dugan's annual open house is Sunday March 11
Dear Friends,
Apologies to those who get multiple copies of this from my postings
to multiple lists.
Sgt. Dugan's annual open house will be tomorrow, Sunday March 11,
noon till 10:00 PM. Directions at
(http://www.dandugan.com/Directions_to_DDSD.html).
Celebrating my 64th birthday, 39 years in business, and 24 years in one place.
Food, drink, conversation, Beatles cover bands.
Audio engineers can fondle the Model E, "a Dugan for the rest of us."
Nature recordists can play with the Nagra ARES-M. Anthroposophists
and Waldorf critics alike can browse the extensive library of Steiner
cult literature. Everybody can meet my fiancee Sharon Perry, and
Norma's new puppy Smokey.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 23:06:37 +0000
From: Roger Rawlings (iankilburn bellsouth.net)
Subject: RE: Friedrich Benesch, Nazi and anthroposophist
Michael Howell wrote:
)
) So what.
)
So what?
So what?
Anthroposophy and Nazism intersect in deep, terrible ways. Both partake
of dark Germanic mysticism and racism. So what? Anthroposophy is
consonant with the most depraved evil the modern world has seen. So
what?
I'll show my age here and quote Bob Dylan. How many times can a man turn
his head, pretending he just doesn't see?
Roger Rawlings
) ----- Original Message -----
) From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
) To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
) Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 6:49 AM
) Subject: Friedrich Benesch, Nazi and anthroposophist
)
)
)
)
)
) This post is about the life and legacy of the prominent anthroposophist
) Friedrich Benesch, whose Nazi past and its unexpected revelation by
) non-anthroposophists presents a case study in how Steiner's followers
) deal
) with their own history.
)
) Friedrich Benesch (1907-1991) was a leading figure in the Christian
) Community, the forthrightly religious arm of anthroposophy. For thirty
) years, beginning in the 1950s, he was the head of the seminary in
) Stuttgart
) that trains the Christian Community's priests. A very large proportion
) of
) all Christian Community pastors alive today were trained directly by
) Benesch. He appears to be popular with English-speaking anthroposophists
) as
) well; his book Reverse Ritual: Spiritual Knowledge is True Communion,
) for
) example, was published by the Anthroposophic Press in 2001, and there's
) a
) plug for several other publications by Benesch currently at the website
) of
) the Christian Community in Australia and New Zealand.
)
) In German-speaking Europe, meanwhile, Benesch is a generally revered
) figure
) in anthroposophical circles. The quasi-official biography of him
) celebrates
) his contributions to religious renewal (see the entry on Benesch in Bodo
) von
) Plato, ed., Anthroposophie im 20. Jahrhundert: Ein Kulturimpuls in
) biografischen Portäts, Dornach 2003). Not long after this biographical
) description was published, anthroposophists became aware of Benesch's
) Nazi
) past through an article by historian Johan Böhm, who aside from being a
) specialist on the region where Benesch lived until the end of WWII also
) happened to be one of Benesch's pupils in the high school where Benesch
) taught in the early 1940s.
)
) Since 2004, when Böhm's supposedly new revelations (which I'll survey in
) a
) moment) were published, some of Benesch's former colleagues and admirers
) have been trying to account for the fact that nobody in the
) anthroposophical
) movement seems to have noticed the rather high-profile former Nazi in
) their
) midst. What's more, Benesch's extensive period as a militant Nazi did
) not
) come before he embraced anthroposophy, but after, and indeed during his
) intensive engagement with 'spiritual science'. Several on-line
) anthroposophical sources (including a brief appendix added to the
) internet
) version of the biography cited above) now address the matter in
) decidedly
) anguished tones.
)
) The article that broke this unwelcome news within the anthroposophical
) community is Johan Böhm, "Friedrich Benesch: Naturwissenschaftler,
) Anthropologe, Theologe und Politiker" Halbjahresschrift für
) südosteuropäische Geschichte, Literatur und Politik, vol. 16 no. 1 (May
) 2004), pp. 108-119. Böhm here reviews Benesch's early career as a
) radical
) Nazi activist in the ethnic German community in Romania. His research
) shows
) that from 1934 to 1945 Benesch was a leader in the more extremist wing
) of
) the regional Nazi party, the DVR, which opposed the more 'moderate'
) elements
) in the Romanian-German Nazi movement. Benesch's Nazi activities
) continued
) even while he worked as a pastor (though not yet a Christian Community
) pastor) and conducted graduate studies with Professor Hans Hahne and his
) colleagues in Halle, where Benesch focused on racial ethnography.
)
) According to Böhm's very thorough account, during the 1930s Benesch was
) not
) merely a member of the ultra-Nazi DVR, he was one of its principal
) figures.
) While Böhm dates Benesch's involvement in Nazi politics to 1934, Benesch
) himself gave a considerably earlier date in his 1941 dissertation at the
) Univeristy of Halle. Here Benesch writes: "Since 1928 I have been a
) member
) of the National Socialist movement for renewal among the Germans in
) Romania." (Friedrich Benesch, Die Festung Hutberg: Eine jungnordische
) Mischsiedlung, Halle 1941, "Lebenslauf")
)
) Perhaps the most interesting aspect of Böhm's 2004 article is his
) personal
) testimony about the content of Benesch's classes in the Romanian-German
) high
) school in the early 1940s. According to Böhm, Benesch placed racial
) theory
) at the center of his teaching, and emphatically propagated National
) Socialism to the pupils. (These parts of Böhm's article are not
) mentioned in
) anthroposophist responses.) This is consistent with other historical
) evidence about Benesch's activities at the time. For instance, at a 1936
) DVR
) gathering that Benesch organized, he gave a lecture on the "racial
) history
) of the Teutons". And in 1939 he applied to work with the SS research
) institute, the Ahnenerbe, on a project about "Trees and forests in
) Aryan-Germanic spiritual and cultural history".
)
) The records of the Ahnenerbe, housed at the German Federal Archives in
) Berlin, contain a substantial file regarding Benesch, which I read
) through
) last week. (The archival signature is Bundesarchiv Berlin, DS / G113:
) 457-492.) Among other things, these documents show that Benesch joined
) the
) SS in July 1939. (Both recent anthroposophist sources and the Böhm
) article
) say he joined the Waffen-SS, but in fact the files refer to the regular
) SS.)
) In 1941 he was appointed head of the Nazi party organization in his home
) county in Romania. It was Böhm's 2004 article that first brought these
) records to the attention of anthroposophists and Christian Community
) officials.
)
) Among the more intriguing questions surrounding this sordid affair is:
) Why
) did it take this long for Benesch's friends, co-workers, students and
) admirers to find out basic information about his early career? His SS
) files,
) for example, have been available for decades through the Berlin Document
) Center and later the Federal Archives, and are by no means difficult to
) track down. Moreover, Böhm's 2004 article was hardly his first mention
) of
) Benesch's Nazi activities. Two of Böhm's earlier books - standard works
) on
) the community in which Benesch lived and worked in the Nazi era -
) discuss
) Benesch's role as a militant Nazi in detail; see Johan Böhm, Das
) nationalsozialistische Deutschland und die Deutsche Volksgruppe in
) Rumänien
) 1936-1944: Das Verhältnis der Deutschen Volksgruppe zum Dritten Reich
) und
) zum rumänischen Staat sowie der interne Widerstreit zwischen den
) politischen
) Gruppen (Frankfurt 1985), pp. 41-42, 53, 138-139; and Böhm, Die
) Deuteschen
) in Rumänien und das Dritte Reich 1933-1940 (Frankfurt 1999), pp. 149,
) 272-273. These works contain extensive information on Benesch's position
) within the DVR and so forth.
)
) In addition, it was no secret that Benesch was married to Sunhilt Hahne,
) daughter of Nazi academic Hans Hahne, who was also Benesch's initial
) doctoral advisor. As my previous post pointed out, the history of
) Hahne's
) intense engagement with anthroposophical doctrines has been readily
) accessible for years. Furthermore, Benesch's own 1941 dissertation not
) only
) employs Nazi racial terminology but openly declares Benesch's commitment
) to
) Nazism in the brief autobiographical notice at the conclusion of the
) text.
) This dissertation was not hidden away in some university vault; a copy
) of it
) has been publicly available at the state library here in Berlin all
) along.
)
) But even anthroposophist sources noted Benesch's far-right political
) inclinations long before 2004, without however making an effort to look
) very
) far into their extent and character. In an Afterword to a collection of
) Benesch's lectures published by the Christian Community publishing house
) in
) 1993 under the title Leben mit der Erde, Christian Community leader
) Hans-Werner Schroeder discussed Benesch's past at some length, including
) his
) early involvement in the radical nationalist and racist völkisch youth
) movement; his fondness for the 'Nordic-Germanic' nonsense of Nazi race
) theorist Herman Wirth, founding director of the Ahnenerbe; his work with
) and
) personal relationship with Hans Hahne; and his participation in the
) Artamanen, the infamous "blood and soil" group that produced several
) later
) Nazi leaders, including Himmler, Darré, and Auschwitz commandant Rudolf
) Höß.
)
) It is hard to tell whether Schroeder, writing not long after Benesch's
) death, considered these merely run of the mill political commitments for
) a
) young anthroposophist, or if he was completely unaware of what these
) groups
) stood for. An equally puzzling conundrum is just what anthroposophist
) readers of Schroeder's account made of these biographical facts, and why
) none of them bothered to inquire further into the matter. Schroeder's
) Afterword, by the way, also makes entirely clear that Benesch's
) dedication
) to anthroposophy was central to all of his engagements throughout the
) 1930s
) and 1940s.
)
) The lesson to be learned here may not be so much that anthroposophists
) could
) easily be Nazis and Nazis could easily be anthroposophists; there are
) dozens
) of other examples of that particular circumstance. Nor is Benesch's own
) post-war silence and denial especially surprising. What is perhaps more
) interesting in this case is the blindness of latter-day anthroposophists
) to
) the history of their own colleagues, indeed their own celebrities, their
) remarkable disinterest in examining this history through commonly
) available
) sources, and their pained surprise when the suppressed past finally
) rises to
) their attention. In light of these dynamics, the obvious question is how
) many other Friedrich Benesches are lurking within the ranks of twentieth
) century anthroposophy.
)
)
) Peter Staudenmaier
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Win a ZuneT-make MSN® your homepage for your chance to win!
) http://homepage.msn.com/zune?icid=hmetagline
)
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
) basic.
) New threads are always welcome.
)
)
)
)
) --
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 23:12:08 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matterhow ba
) Anthroposophists give away the game when they reveal their disdain for
) brains, rationality, and science (i.e., truth).
So odd, really, don't you think Roger, when the game is said to be
concealment?
Top Ten Differences Between The Critics List and Hell
10. We are not faced with the question of how many additional Friedrich
Benesches may be lurking in Hell.
9. Everyone has heard of Hell.
8. It's a lot more fun getting into Hell.
7. You can't be kicked out of Hell.
6. At least you can answer others with the disdain they warrant in Hell.
5. Hell is forever; the critics list just seems like it.
4. People don't lose their sense of humour when they go to Hell.
3. You only have to sell your soul to get into Hell.
2. You don't have to read quotes from Steiner in Hell.
1. In Hell, your heart could actually be a pump!
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 23:21:05 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Friedrich Benesch, Nazi and anthroposophist
) Michael Howell wrote:
) )
) ) So what.
RR responded:
) So what?
) So what?
And:
)So what?
)So what?
And:
) I'll show my age here and quote Bob Dylan. How many times can a man turn
)
) his head, pretending he just doesn't see?
How about displaying some of the brains, rationality and truth that you
say Anthroposophists reveal disdain for by answering the question!!! So
what?-Val
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 23:38:52 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Rudolf the Riot
Roger Rawlings wrote:
I'm still trying to master the Topica procedures.
Now-that's funny!!! Conspicuously absent from your top ten list was the
white women reading negro novels bit-considered by many anthroposophists
to be one of Steiner's funniest jokes ever.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 02:04:36 +0000
From: Roger Rawlings (iankilburn bellsouth.net)
Subject: RE: Rudolf the Riot
Valerie Walsh wrote:
)
)
) Roger Rawlings wrote:
)
) I'm still trying to master the Topica procedures.
)
) Now-that's funny!!! Conspicuously absent from your top ten list was the
) white women reading negro novels bit-considered by many anthroposophists
)
) to be one of Steiner's funniest jokes ever.
Thank you. Your replies were better than I could have hoped. Please
circulate them widely. You bravely attempt to defend the indefenisble,
and your replies show how hopeless that attempt is.
Here’s a suggestion. Post any passage from Steiner’s books or lectures,
and then defend it. Take any of the passages I offered previously, if
you like. Or here are some other possibilities (including one you
suggested):
) “On one side we find the black race, which is earthly at most. If it
) moves to the West, it becomes extinct. We also have the yellow race,
) which is in the middle between earth and the cosmos. If it moves to the
) East, it becomes brown, attaches itself too much to the cosmos, and
) becomes extinct. The white race is the future, the race that is creating
) spirit.” [VOM LEBEN DES MENSCHEN UND DER ERDE {On the Life of Human
) Beings and of the Earth} (Dornach: Verlag Der Rudolf
) Steiner-Nachlassverwaltung, 1961), p. 62.]
) “White mankind is still on the path of absorbing spirit more deeply into
) its essence. Yellow mankind is on the path of preserving the period when
) the spirit is kept away from the body, when the spirit can only be
) sought outside of the human-physical organization. But the result will
) have to be that the transition from the fifth cultural epoch to the
) sixth cultural epoch [i.e., historical periods since the sinking of
) Atlantis] cannot happen differently than as a violent fight between
) white mankind and colored mankind in the most varied areas.” [DIE
) GEISTIGEN HINTERGRÜNDE DES ERSTEN WELTKRIEGES {The Spiritual Background
) of the First World War} (Dornach: Rudolf Steiner Verlag, 1974), p. 38.]
) “[I]f we give these Negro novels to pregnant women to read, then it
) won’t even be necessary for Negroes to come to Europe in order for
) mulattos to appear. Simply through the spiritual effects of reading
) Negro novels, a multitude of children will be born in Europe that are
) completely gray, that have mulatto hair, that look like mulattos!”
) [Rudolf Steiner, quoted by Peter Staudenmaier, “Race and Redemption:
) Racial and Ethnic Evolution in Rudolf Steiner’s Anthroposophy,” 2004.]
) [Addressing teachers at the first Waldorf school]:
[Dr. Steiner]: “Such cases are increasing in which children are born
with a human form, but are not really human beings...instead, they are
filled with beings that do not belong to the human class. Quite a number
of people have been born...[that] are not reincarnated, but are human
forms filled with a sort of natural demon....”
[A teacher]: “How is that possible?”
[Dr. Steiner]: “Cosmic error is certainly not impossible....
“I do not like to talk about such things since we have often been
attacked even without them. Imagine what people would say if they heard
that we say there are people who are not human beings....” [FACULTY
MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER (Hudson, NY: Anthroposophic Press, 1998),
pp. 649-650.]
) “Judaism as such has long outlived itself and no longer has a legitimate
) place in the modern life of peoples; the fact that it has nevertheless
) succeeded in maintaining itself is an aberration in world history the
) consequences of which had to follow.” [“Vom Wesen des Judentums,” DIE
) GESCHICHTE DER MENSCHHEIT UND DIE WELTANSCHAUUNGEN DER KULTURVOLKER,
) Dornach, 1968; English translation from "Anthroposophy and the Question
) of Race" (English summary for the media). Council of the
) Anthroposophical Society in The Netherlands, Zeist/Driebergen, April 1,
) 2000.]
) “If the person devoting himself to the color which covers these
) physically dense walls were one who had made certain occult progress, it
) would come about that after a period of this complete devotion the walls
) would disappear from his clairvoyant vision; the consciousness that the
) walls shut off the outer world would vanish. Now, what appears first is
) not merely that he sees the neighboring houses outside, that the walls
) become like glass, but in the sphere which opens up there is a world of
) purely spiritual phenomena; spiritual facts and spiritual figures become
) visible. We need only reflect that behind everything around us
) physically there are spiritual beings and facts. That which lies at the
) foundation of the physical objects outside becomes in a certain way
) visible.... The worlds which surround us spiritually are of many kinds,
) many different kinds of elementary beings are around us. These are not
) enclosed in boxes or in such a state that they live in various houses.
) The law of impenetrability applies only to the physical world.... But
) they cannot all be seen in the same way; according to the capacity of
) clairvoyant vision, there may be visible and invisible beings in the
) same space. What spiritual beings become visible in any particular
) instance depends on the colour to which we devote ourselves. In a red
) room, other beings become visible than in a blue room....” [Lecture
) given on October 15, 1911, quoted in ART INSPIRED BY RUDOLF STEINER,
) John Fletcher (England: Mercury Arts Publications, 1987), p. 95.]
) “It is...important that the deeds of Christ Jesus are always seen in
) relation to the physical sun, which is the external expression of the
) spiritual world that is received at the point where Christ’s physical
) body is walking around. When Christ Jesus heals, for instance, it is the
) sun force that heals. However, the sun must be in the right place in the
) heavens: ‘That evening, at sundown, they brought to him all who were
) sick or possessed with demons.’ It is important to indicate that this
) healing power can flow down only when the external sun has set but still
) works spiritually.” [THE UNIVERSAL HUMAN: THE EVOLUTION OF
) INDIVIDUALITY, Lectures from 1909-1916 (USA: Anthroposophic Press,
) 1990), pp. 65-6.]
Thanks again.
Roger Rawlings
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 02:08:09 +0000
From: Roger Rawlings (iankilburn bellsouth.net)
Subject: Typo
Sorry.
Indefensible.
Roger Rawlings
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 22:00:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Margaret Sachs (powerofjoy2004 yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Rudolf the Riot
Roger,
Your top ten list is funny! I think I'll print it and
next time someone asks me about Waldorf schools I'll
just hand them your list. It gets the point across in
a brief and entertaining fashion. Wish we'd seen
something like this before we enrolled our children in
Waldorf.
Best wishes,
Margaret
--- Roger Rawlings (iankilburn bellsouth.net) wrote:
)
) David Letterman’s Top Ten Jokes Told by R. Steiner:
)
) 10) “In having people do eurythmy, we link them
) directly to the
) supersensible world.” [ART AS SPIRITUAL ACTIVITY, p.
) 247.]
)
) 9) “[A]n island like Great Britain swims in the sea
) and is held fast by
) the forces of the stars. In actuality, such islands
) do not sit directly
) upon a foundation; they swim and are held fast from
) outside.” [FACULTY
) MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER, p. 607.]
)
) 8) “There are beings that can be seen with
) clairvoyant vision at many
) spots in the depths of the earth...Many names have
) been given to them,
) such as goblins, gnomes and so forth...Their nature
) prompts them to play
) all sorts of tricks on man....” [NATURE SPIRITS, pp.
) 62-3.]
)
) 7) “[T]he brain and nerve system have nothing at
) all to do with actual
) cognition....” [THE FOUNDATIONS OF HUMAN EXPERIENCE,
) p. 60.]
)
) 6) “[I]t is not that the planets move around the
) Sun, but these three,
) Mercury, Venus, and the Earth, follow the Sun, and
) these three, Mars,
) Jupiter, and Saturn, precede it.” [FACULTY MEETINGS
) WITH RUDOLF
) STEINER., pp. 30-31.]
)
) 5) “[J]ust as natural forces build out of living
) matter the eyes and
) ears of the physical body, so will organs of
) clairvoyance build
) themselves....” [KNOWLEDGE OF THE HIGHER WORLDS AND
) ITS ATTAINMENT, p.
) 28.]
)
) 4) “The use of the French language quite certainly
) corrupts the soul.”
) [FACULTY MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER, pp. 558.]
)
) 3) “In the course of its development, the good
) portion of humankind
) will learn to use the Moon forces to transform the
) evil part [of
) mankind] so that it can participate in further
) evolution as a distinct
) earthly kingdom.” [AN OUTLINE OF ESOTERIC SCIENCE,
) p. 393.]
) 2) “[Science] sees the heart as a pump that pumps
) blood through the
) body. Now there is nothing more absurd than
) believing this, for the
) heart has nothing to do with pumping the blood.”
) [FREUD, JUNG, AND
) SPIRITUAL PSYCHOLOGY, pp. 124-125.]
)
) 1) “If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the
) human race will
) become increasingly dense.... Blond hair actually
) bestows intelligence.
) In the case of fair people, less nourishment is
) driven into the eyes and
) hair; it remains instead in the brain and endows it
) with intelligence.
) Brown- and dark-haired people drive the substances
) into their eyes and
) hair that the fair people retain in their brains.”
) [HEALTH AND ILLNESS,
) VOL. 1, pp. 85-86.]
)
) Quite a kidder, our Rudolf. LOL.
)
) Roger Rawlings
)
) P.S. I apologize if this posting appears twice. I'm
) still trying to
) master the Topica procedures.
)
)
)
==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like
) here, no matter how basic. New threads are always
) welcome.
)
)
)
____________________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 08:24:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Typo
Roger Rawlings (iankilburn bellsouth.net) wrote:
)Sorry.
)Indefensible.
Thanks so much for jumpong right on that and letting everyone know it was just a typo, a mistake, an inadvertent error on your part and not a symptom of drug use, dyslexia, inattentiveness, carelessness, confusion, illiteracy, alchohol consumption, or lack of regard for the English language or for your fellow listmates or perhaps all of the above. It's also a relief to know that you don't consider it some type of unconscious error on your part, like a freudian slip that would constitute writing in code and therefore make you, by default. a writer of secret codes. Worse perhaps, the possibility exists that you consciously intended to communicate a secret message to another listmate with your "error" and then immediately sent the"typo" message in order to cover your tracks. Which would make you by definition, clever.
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 08:31:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Rudolf the Riot
Margaret Sachs (powerofjoy2004 yahoo.com) wrote:
)Your top ten list is funny!
Excellent, Margaret! I think between Roger and Emmanuel the critics are really on a roll! But what I think is funny is the result of a "I'm feeling lucky search" on Google for "Waldorf Jokes"-Best Regards, Val
---------------------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 20:44:36 -0800
From: PLANS Secretary (secretary waldorfcritics.org)
Subject: RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no
matterhow ba
Valerie Walsh, you wrote,
)5. Hell is forever; the critics list just seems like it.
Unlike hell, attendance here is optional. Feel free to leave at any time.
)2. You don't have to read quotes from Steiner in Hell.
Perhaps you could go to his lectures there.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 08:13:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Rudolf the Riot
Roger Rawlings (iankilburn bellsouth.net) wrote:
)Thank you.
You're welcome, Roger! I believe in giving credit where credit is due.
)Your replies were better than I could have hoped. Please
)circulate them widely.
Sorry to hear about your low expectations of others. I am circulating them widely, Roger and you are now assisting me in this endeavor. Thanks!
)You bravely attempt to defend the indefenisble,
What makes you think that is what I am attempting to do?
)and your replies show how hopeless that attempt is.
How do they show it's hopeless if I am not attempting to do so in the first place?
)Here’s a suggestion. Post any passage from Steiner’s books or lectures,
)and then defend it.
This is an excellent idea, Roger! Peter S. wrote not long ago that critics often take a stance opposite of their own and argue from that standpoint and here's a great opportunity for you to do just that. It might be a very fruitful exercise for you. Good luck!
---------------------------------
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Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:26:31 +0000
From: Roger Rawlings (iankilburn bellsouth.net)
Subject: RE: Rudolf the Riot
Valerie Walsh wrote:
)
1) I knew from past experience that rationalists and Anthropsophists
have a very hard time trying to talk sensibly to each other. It's like
asking for sense and nonsense to find a middle ground. I'll continue to
hope that a real dialogue may become possible, somehow, someday. But our
few exchanges (which immediately, on your part, became an invocation of
Hell), leave me less optimistic than ever.
It's too bad. If you would follow my suggestion and offer your
commentary on particular passages from Steiner's works, perhaps a
genuine conversation could begin. But an endless round of non sequiturs,
evasions, and jabs is pointless.
I invite the other members of the list to read and evaluate your
replies.
2) You asked me to answer the question, "So what?" Of course, I did. I
said "Anthroposophy and Nazism intersect in deep, terrible ways. Both
partake of dark Germanic mysticism and racism." And I added
"Anthroposophy is
consonant with the most depraved evil the modern world has seen." But in
case you didn't understand, let me be more explicit. Peter's revelations
about ties between Nazis and Anthroposophists are important because they
show the compatibility of these two ideologies, which share some
characteristics and arise, in part, from the same sources. Nazism is, of
course, the greater evil. But Anthroposophy is also pernicious and
damaging, specifically (but not exclusively) in its racism, its mystical
claptrap, its quack medicine, and its warped form of "thought"
(intuition/imagination/clairvoyance as opposed to rationality).
Roger Rawlings
P.S. I guess it was pretty funny that, a newcomer, I took a try or two
to master Topica. (Meanwhile, I should tell you that your last few
messages have been blank.)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:36:18 +0000
From: Roger Rawlings (iankilburn bellsouth.net)
Subject: RE: Rudolf the Riot
Margaret Sachs wrote:
)
) Roger,
)
) Your top ten list is funny! I think I'll print it and
) next time someone asks me about Waldorf schools I'll
) just hand them your list. It gets the point across in
) a brief and entertaining fashion. Wish we'd seen
) something like this before we enrolled our children in
) Waldorf.
)
) Best wishes,
) Margaret
)
Thanks very much. I hadn't read much Steiner until the last few years.
By now, I've read a great deal. And here's a secret: Almost every one of
his books is an unintentional joke book. I almost never open one of his
books without quickly finding some howlers. Example: At random, just
now, I opened AGRICULTURE COURSE and immediately found this: "Oh, the
pigs, the fat pigs and sows—what heavenly creatures they are! In their
fat body—insofar as it is not nerves-and-senses system—they have nothing
but cosmic substance." [p.147] OK, it isn't up to Letterman standards.
But I got a chuckle out of it. (And, to keep the record straight, I have
nothing against pigs. I'm an animal lover.)
Roger Rawlings
) --- Roger Rawlings (iankilburn bellsouth.net) wrote:
)
) )
) ) David Letterman’s Top Ten Jokes Told by R. Steiner:
) )
) ) 10) “In having people do eurythmy, we link them
) ) directly to the
) ) supersensible world.” [ART AS SPIRITUAL ACTIVITY, p.
) ) 247.]
) )
) ) 9) “[A]n island like Great Britain swims in the sea
) ) and is held fast by
) ) the forces of the stars. In actuality, such islands
) ) do not sit directly
) ) upon a foundation; they swim and are held fast from
) ) outside.” [FACULTY
) ) MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER, p. 607.]
) )
) ) 8) “There are beings that can be seen with
) ) clairvoyant vision at many
) ) spots in the depths of the earth...Many names have
) ) been given to them,
) ) such as goblins, gnomes and so forth...Their nature
) ) prompts them to play
) ) all sorts of tricks on man....” [NATURE SPIRITS, pp.
) ) 62-3.]
) )
) ) 7) “[T]he brain and nerve system have nothing at
) ) all to do with actual
) ) cognition....” [THE FOUNDATIONS OF HUMAN EXPERIENCE,
) ) p. 60.]
) )
) ) 6) “[I]t is not that the planets move around the
) ) Sun, but these three,
) ) Mercury, Venus, and the Earth, follow the Sun, and
) ) these three, Mars,
) ) Jupiter, and Saturn, precede it.” [FACULTY MEETINGS
) ) WITH RUDOLF
) ) STEINER., pp. 30-31.]
) )
) ) 5) “[J]ust as natural forces build out of living
) ) matter the eyes and
) ) ears of the physical body, so will organs of
) ) clairvoyance build
) ) themselves....” [KNOWLEDGE OF THE HIGHER WORLDS AND
) ) ITS ATTAINMENT, p.
) ) 28.]
) )
) ) 4) “The use of the French language quite certainly
) ) corrupts the soul.”
) ) [FACULTY MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER, pp. 558.]
) )
) ) 3) “In the course of its development, the good
) ) portion of humankind
) ) will learn to use the Moon forces to transform the
) ) evil part [of
) ) mankind] so that it can participate in further
) ) evolution as a distinct
) ) earthly kingdom.” [AN OUTLINE OF ESOTERIC SCIENCE,
) ) p. 393.]
) ) 2) “[Science] sees the heart as a pump that pumps
) ) blood through the
) ) body. Now there is nothing more absurd than
) ) believing this, for the
) ) heart has nothing to do with pumping the blood.”
) ) [FREUD, JUNG, AND
) ) SPIRITUAL PSYCHOLOGY, pp. 124-125.]
) )
) ) 1) “If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the
) ) human race will
) ) become increasingly dense.... Blond hair actually
) ) bestows intelligence.
) ) In the case of fair people, less nourishment is
) ) driven into the eyes and
) ) hair; it remains instead in the brain and endows it
) ) with intelligence.
) ) Brown- and dark-haired people drive the substances
) ) into their eyes and
) ) hair that the fair people retain in their brains.”
) ) [HEALTH AND ILLNESS,
) ) VOL. 1, pp. 85-86.]
) )
) ) Quite a kidder, our Rudolf. LOL.
) )
) ) Roger Rawlings
) )
) ) P.S. I apologize if this posting appears twice. I'm
) ) still trying to
) ) master the Topica procedures.
) )
) )
) )
) ==^================================================================
) ) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like
) ) here, no matter how basic. New threads are always
) ) welcome.
) )
) )
) )
)
)
)
)
) ____________________________________________________________________________________
)
) Be a PS3 game guru.
) Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo!
) Games.
) http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
Roger Rawlings
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 18:32:23 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matterhow ba
PLANS Secretary wrote:
) Unlike hell, attendance here is optional. Feel free to leave at any
) time.
Thanks, Dan. My last three posts did just that!
) )2. You don't have to read quotes from Steiner in Hell.
)
) Perhaps you could go to his lectures there.
Perhaps you can go to his lectures here.
Val
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 18:35:41 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Rudolf the Riot
Roger Rawlings wrote:
) P.S. I guess it was pretty funny that, a newcomer, I took a try or two
) to master Topica. (Meanwhile, I should tell you that your last few
) messages have been blank.)
Exactly, Roger! Can't say you're not a quick study.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:30:43 +1100
From: "Michael Howell" (mejhowell bigpond.com)
Subject: Re: Typo
Damn right.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Rawlings" (iankilburn bellsouth.net)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 1:08 PM
Subject: Typo
)
) Sorry.
)
) Indefensible.
)
) Roger Rawlings
)
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
) New threads are always welcome.
)
)
)
) --
) No virus found in this incoming message.
) Checked by AVG Free Edition.
) Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.8/717 - Release Date: 10/03/2007
) 2:25 PM
)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:22:36 +0000
From: Roger Rawlings (iankilburn bellsouth.net)
Subject: RE: Rudolf the Riot
Valerie Walsh wrote:
)
)
) Roger Rawlings wrote:
)
) ) P.S. I guess it was pretty funny that, a newcomer, I took a try or two
) ) to master Topica. (Meanwhile, I should tell you that your last few
) ) messages have been blank.)
)
) Exactly, Roger! Can't say you're not a quick study.
Thanks.
And may I suggest something, in all seriousness? Obviously you and I
will disagree about a great many things, and perhaps the gap between us
will never narrow. But I hope we can disagree in a cordial way—maybe
even as friends. I kid you not. One of my dearest friends is an ordained
Unitarian minister who went through a Waldorf teacher-training program
and then for several years taught at Waldorf schools. She doesn't call
herself an Anthroposophist, but she also does not disavow Steiner, at
least his educational precepts. She often tells me where she thinks
Steiner is right and I am wrong. (She's wrong about this, of course,
but...) And yet we remain friends. I genuinely harbor no animosity
toward any Anthroposophist. We are all seekers of the truth, I believe,
and as such should have sympathy and respect for one another.
Roger Rawlings
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:29:47 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Rudolf the Riot
)But I hope we can disagree in a cordial way—maybe
) even as friends.
)We are all seekers of the truth, I believe,
) and as such should have sympathy and respect for one another.
If you think you have been demonstrating cordialness, sympathy and
respect then you might not want to get your hopes up.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:44:32 +0000
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Rudolf the Riot
Roger Rawlings wrote:
) 1) I knew from past experience that rationalists and Anthropsophists
) have a very hard time trying to talk sensibly to each other. It's like
) asking for sense and nonsense to find a middle ground. I'll continue to
) hope that a real dialogue may become possible, somehow, someday. But our
)
) few exchanges (which immediately, on your part, became an invocation of
) Hell), leave me less optimistic than ever.
I, on the other hand, am highly optimistic because you have apparently
answered one of my earlier posts even though it was blank. Clever boy!
Here it is for the benefit of the normally sighted:
An anthroposophist was walking along a very narrow walkway when he came
face to face with a Waldorf Critic. The path was too narrow for two to
pass.
The critic, pulling himself up to his full height, said haughtily: "I
never make way for fools!"
Smiling, the anthroposophist stepped aside and said : "I always do."
Meanwhile, back at the farm (for you the self-professed animal lover),
or in other words the real world for the rest of us-or at least what
passes for it around here-what I think is funny, Roger, are the results
of a Google search on "Waldorf Jokes" especially the "I'm feeling lucky"
search. Between you, Dan, and Emmanuel the critics are apparently the
funniest thing going! Keep up the good work!
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 07:24:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Valerie Walsh (isenhart7 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE:You can crack any joke about Waldorf you like here, no matterhow bad
An anthroposophist was walking along a very narrow walkway when he came face to face with a Waldorf Critic. The path was too narrow for two to pass.
The Waldorf Critic, pulling himself up to his full height, said haughtily: "I never make way for fools!"
Smiling, the anthroposophist stepped aside and said : "I always do."
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