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There are 2 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Hello- new member- thanks for this site
From: cathy223146
1b. Re: Hello- new member- thanks for this site
From: Margaret Sachs
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Hello- new member- thanks for this site
Posted by: "cathy223146" cathybalme btinternet.com cathy223146
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 3:49 am ((PST))
Hi- thanks for these sites- and also others that have helped me after
our three children have left Steiner school. I love Zooey's blog, and
Roger Rawlings sites- My wondeful kids are the survivors of Planet
Steiner- I'm raging with fury- but also find anthroposophy fascinating
in it's madness! I can't get enough of it- and keep seeing things that
were said or happened in a new Steiner World light.
I know we've left a cult- my kids seem as if a veil has lifted- they
hadn't yet reached the "midwich cuckoo" stare that so many of the kids
have- but they're certainly different.
We weren't cult material- we asked too many questions and read too much-
and certainly we weren't "on the shining path".
What I would like to know- and change- is WHY the press - here in
Britain at any rate- are so hoodwinked by the anthros? There are often
articles in broadsheets singing the praises of natural, child centred,
liberal creative steiner Schools. They don't even publish letters
replying in dissent. What can be done about it?
I've posted some comments on youtube- but some have been blocked and
deleted.
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Hello- new member- thanks for this site
Posted by: "Margaret Sachs" powerofjoy2004 yahoo.com powerofjoy2004
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 4:06 pm ((PST))
--- cathy223146 (cathybalme btinternet.com) wrote:
) Hi- thanks for these sites- and also others that
) have helped me after
) our three children have left Steiner school. I love
) Zooey's blog, and
) Roger Rawlings sites- My wondeful kids are the
) survivors of Planet
) Steiner- I'm raging with fury- but also find
) anthroposophy fascinating
) in it's madness! I can't get enough of it- and keep
) seeing things that
) were said or happened in a new Steiner World light.
) I know we've left a cult- my kids seem as if a veil
) has lifted- they
) hadn't yet reached the "midwich cuckoo" stare that
) so many of the kids
) have- but they're certainly different.
) We weren't cult material- we asked too many
) questions and read too much-
) and certainly we weren't "on the shining path".
) What I would like to know- and change- is WHY the
) press - here in
) Britain at any rate- are so hoodwinked by the
) anthros? There are often
) articles in broadsheets singing the praises of
) natural, child centred,
) liberal creative steiner Schools. They don't even
) publish letters
) replying in dissent. What can be done about it?
) I've posted some comments on youtube- but some have
) been blocked and
) deleted.
Welcome to this list, Cathy. If there's one thing
Anthroposophists are good at it's knowing how to
present their product (Waldorf schools) in a way that
makes many parents believe it is the answer to their
hopes and dreams for their children. They remind me of
the shameless makers of infomercials who make
extravagant claims and use testimonials rather than
legitimate evidence to back them up.
Considering the number of parents (myself included)
who have been suckered by Waldorf PR, it's no wonder
the press fall for it. And they have less at stake
than parents do. They're not choosing their children's
education; they're merely filling space with words to
make money.
Best,
Margaret
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There are 2 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Hello- new member- thanks for this site
From: cathy223146
1b. Re: Hello- new member- thanks for this site
From: Margaret Sachs
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Hello- new member- thanks for this site
Posted by: "cathy223146" cathybalme btinternet.com cathy223146
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:14 am ((PST))
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, Margaret Sachs
(powerofjoy2004 ...) wrote:
)
Thanks Margeret
What you say is so true. There'd be no problem if the anthroposophic
core was open- but then of course Steiner would be considered
barking.....
My kids have come through fairly unscathed- although they were
involved and witnessed some unforgiveable things. Physical
manhandling by staff, bullying and appalling teaching.....I'm trying
to piece together various things- I keep remebering events and things
said, and realising them in a new light. I suppose this is common.
I'm also racked with guilt about what my kids went through, and how
were we able to miss the "main agenda" however much we probed....
Thanks,
Cathy
) --- cathy223146 (cathybalme ...) wrote:
)
) ) Hi- thanks for these sites- and also others that
) ) have helped me after
) ) our three children have left Steiner school. I love
) ) Zooey's blog, and
) ) Roger Rawlings sites- My wondeful kids are the
) ) survivors of Planet
) ) Steiner- I'm raging with fury- but also find
) ) anthroposophy fascinating
) ) in it's madness! I can't get enough of it- and keep
) ) seeing things that
) ) were said or happened in a new Steiner World light.
) ) I know we've left a cult- my kids seem as if a veil
) ) has lifted- they
) ) hadn't yet reached the "midwich cuckoo" stare that
) ) so many of the kids
) ) have- but they're certainly different.
) ) We weren't cult material- we asked too many
) ) questions and read too much-
) ) and certainly we weren't "on the shining path".
) ) What I would like to know- and change- is WHY the
) ) press - here in
) ) Britain at any rate- are so hoodwinked by the
) ) anthros? There are often
) ) articles in broadsheets singing the praises of
) ) natural, child centred,
) ) liberal creative steiner Schools. They don't even
) ) publish letters
) ) replying in dissent. What can be done about it?
) ) I've posted some comments on youtube- but some have
) ) been blocked and
) ) deleted.
)
) Welcome to this list, Cathy. If there's one thing
) Anthroposophists are good at it's knowing how to
) present their product (Waldorf schools) in a way that
) makes many parents believe it is the answer to their
) hopes and dreams for their children. They remind me of
) the shameless makers of infomercials who make
) extravagant claims and use testimonials rather than
) legitimate evidence to back them up.
)
) Considering the number of parents (myself included)
) who have been suckered by Waldorf PR, it's no wonder
) the press fall for it. And they have less at stake
) than parents do. They're not choosing their children's
) education; they're merely filling space with words to
) make money.
)
) Best,
) Margaret
)
)
)
)
______________________________________________________________________
______________
) Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
) http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
)
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Hello- new member- thanks for this site
Posted by: "Margaret Sachs" powerofjoy2004 yahoo.com powerofjoy2004
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 3:01 pm ((PST))
--- cathy223146 (cathybalme btinternet.com) wrote:
) My kids have come through fairly unscathed- although
) they were
) involved and witnessed some unforgiveable things.
) Physical
) manhandling by staff, bullying and appalling
) teaching.....
I'm glad your children have come through fairly
unscathed. Maybe after you've instilled in them an
understanding that the unforgivable things are 100%
wrong and that you and all psychologically healthy
people fully condemn those things, you could switch to
humor as a means of getting over it. Mocking
dysfunctional Waldorf teachers and Anthroposophic
nonsense could be an effective way to remove any
remnants of power those teachers might have over your
children's psyches.
) I'm trying
) to piece together various things- I keep remebering
) events and things
) said, and realising them in a new light. I suppose
) this is common.
I don't know if it's common but it has certainly been
true for me. Six years down the road, after more than
twelve years of on-again-off-again involvement with
Waldorf, I still find myself remembering things that I
now understand had heavy duty Anthroposophic
significance and served occult goals rather than our
children's needs--educational or otherwise.
) I'm also racked with guilt about what my kids went
) through, and how
) were we able to miss the "main agenda" however much
) we probed....
Put away the guilt. Anthroposophists have been using
effective techniques to fool parents about the main
agenda of Waldorf schools for many decades. Their
guru's instructions to teachers clearly spell out the
"need" for such deception. Of course, the people who
are the most bamboozled are Anthroposophists
themselves and that's what makes them dangerous to
their targeted source of income--mostly children and
the mentally disabled.
I think the best we can do as parents who've seen the
truth behind the appealing Waldorf facade is to try to
prevent other parents from falling into the same trap.
Best,
Margaret
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There is 1 message in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Epiphany/Three Kings and the evolution of races
From: winters_diana
Message
________________________________________________________________________
1. Epiphany/Three Kings and the evolution of races
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 8:35 pm ((PST))
I recommend the following lecture, available at the Rudolf Steiner
archive, to current or prospective Waldorf parents interested in the
anthroposophical significance of the Epiphany or Three Kings holiday,
or the twelfth day of Christmas. At our school, anthroposophists
insisted this holiday was more important than Christmas. This Steiner
lecture may indicate why.
http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Christmas/19041230p01.html
Some quotes:
"You will remember that I have spoken of the meaning of the Christmas
Festival in its connection with the evolution of races, or, better
said, the epochs of civilisation, and indeed the significance of the
Festival lies in this very connection both in respect of the past and
of the future.
I want to speak to-day about a Festival to which in modern times less
importance is attached than to the Christmas Festival itself, namely,
the Festival of the Three Kings, of the Magi who came from the East
to greet the newly born Jesus. This Festival of the Epiphany
(celebrated on the 6th of January) will assume greater and greater
significance when its symbolism is understood.
It will be obvious to you that very profound symbolism is contained
in the Festival of the Three Magi from the East. Until the 15th
century, this symbolism was kept very secret and no definite
indications were available. But since that century some light has
been thrown on the Festival of the Magi by exoteric presentations.
One of the Three Kings � Caspar � is portrayed as a Moor, an
inhabitant of Africa; one as a white man, a European � Melchior; and
one � Balthasar � as an Asiatic; the colour of his skin is that of an
inhabitant of India. They bring Myrrh, Gold and Frankincense as
offerings to the Child Jesus in Bethlehem . . .
The 6th of January is the same date as that on which, in ancient
Egypt, the Festival of Osiris was celebrated, the Festival of the re-
finding of Osiris . . .
What does the disappearance of Osiris signify? It signifies the
transition from the epoch before the middle of the Lemurian race to
the epoch after the middle of that race . . .
Who are the Magi? They represent the Initiates of the three preceding
races or epochs of culture, the Initiates of mankind up to the time
of the coming of Christ, the Bringer of the Love that is free of
egoism � the resurrected Osiris. The Initiates � and so too the Three
Magi � were endowed with Manas. They bring gold, frankincense and
myrrh as their offerings . . .
And why are their skins of three colours: white, yellow and black?
One is European � his skin is white; one is Indian � his skin is
yellow; one is African � his skin is black. This indicates the
connection with the so-called Root Races. The remaining survivors of
the Lemurian race are black; those of the Atlantean race are yellow;
and the representatives of the Fifth Root Race, the Post-Atlantean or
Aryan race, are white . . .
Thus the Three Kings or Magi are representatives of the Lemurians,
the Atlanteans and the Aryans. They bring the three offerings. The
European (Melchior) brings gold, the symbol of wisdom, of
intelligence which comes to expression paramountly in the Fifth Root
Race. The offering of the Initiate representing the Fourth Root Race
(Balthasar) is frankincense, connected with what was intrinsically
characteristic of the Atlanteans. They were united more directly with
the Godhead, a union which took effect as a suggestive influence, a
kind of universal hypnosis . . .
In the language of esotericism, myrrh is the symbol of dying, of
death. . . Myrrh is the symbol of the dying of the lower life and the
resurrection of the higher life. It is offered by the Initiate
representing the Third Root Race (Lemurian) . . .
Melchior is the representative of the principle of wisdom, of
intelligence � the task of the Fifth Root Race. This is symbolised by
his offering � gold . . .
Thus the offerings made by the Three Kings indicate the connection of
the Festival with the Third, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Root Races."
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There is 1 message in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Epiphany/Three Kings and the evolution of races
From: winters_diana
Message
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Epiphany/Three Kings and the evolution of races
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 5:14 am ((PST))
I posted the Three Kings material over on AT, and got the following
reply from a dyed-in-the-wool anthroposophist:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/36062
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There are 2 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: suppressing critical comments
From: Dan Dugan
2. parallel with Mormonism
From: Dan Dugan
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1. Re: suppressing critical comments
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 7:42 am ((PST))
Eugene Schwartz has verified that he has blocked critical comments on
his Waldorf-promoting videos on YouTube. Schwartz wrote:
)Thank you for your email, and for your very kind expression of
)admiration. However . . . . It IS so. I have blocked several users
)who visited the two eurythmy trailers that I set up as well as the
)recent "Discover Waldorf Education" video.
)
)Do you really feel that YouTube.com is a venue for the serious
)discussion of issues? Isn't it a lot closer to being the Internet
)version of "People" magazine than, let's say, "Harper's" or "The New
)York Review of Books"? A three-to-five minute video is hardly the
)place to present anything profound about subjects as complex as
)eurythmy or Waldorf education, nor is a little "Comment/Reply" box
)the best place to make a meaningful comment on the video itself, not
)to speak of commenting on its underlying philosophy.
So what if you don't think the medium is serious or profound? It must
be important enough for you to spend effort on it. The comment box is
there to invite comments. You are the host; how should you treat your
guests?
)The videos that I have uploaded are, in essence, advertising: the
)eurythmy videos invite people to purchase a much longer eurythmy DVD
)while the "Discover Waldorf" video is advertising Waldorf education.
)Any advertiser will set up circumstances so that his advertisement
)is in the most effective place, and he will control circumstances to
)the best of his ability to maintain a positive setting for his
)advertisement. An animal-rights activist is unlikely to buy
)advertising space in "Hunting World" magazine. In that respect my
)action had nothing to do with "cult-like behavior" and everything to
)do with common sense. "Tenguineas" and "Aurumvore" are not the only
)viewers I have blocked; wherever offensive language was used I felt
)that I was justified in removing the comment and blocking the
)writer. YouTube recognizes the right of its contributors to control
)their setting by blocking users, and I, like thousands of other
)YouTube contributors, have availed myself of that right.
OK, I understand. It's commercial. You're not concerned with the
ethics of suppressing the comments that the site invites--it's the
bottom line. How very spiritual of you.
)I have visited a number of other Waldorf-related sites and I've
)noticed that tenguineas, in particular, has been writing comments at
)quite a few of them. Regardless of the particular content of the
)site, he writes basically the same set of warnings about the motives
)of the Waldorf movement.
Now you make a illogical ad-hominem argument. You delete a person's
critical comments because he or she is critical. Um.
)He is certainly free to exercise his freedom of speech,
Except where you have control...
)and, since most Waldorf sites are not intensively supervised, his
)comments will generally not be deleted, nor will he be prevented
)from visiting repeatedly.
So it's ok to delete invited comments because people can express
themselves elsewhere.
)However, I predict that he will find that most YouTube visitors come
)for the videos and NOT for the comments - I doubt whether most of
)those comments are ever looked at, no less read and pondered -- so
)he may be disappointed at the tepid results that even his most
)provocative comments obtain. With that in mind, I feel no guilt
)about showing him (her?) the door.
It's ok to censor invited speech because most people won't notice?
Another interesting kind of ethics.
)One clarification: Tenguineas implied that I was concealing the
)close connection of anthroposophy and Waldorf education. In the
)videos that I upload to YouTube, "anthroposophy" is always a
)keyword, as is "rudolf steiner."
The keywords will direct a person who's looking for Anthroposophy or
Steiner to the video. They are no help at all giving a YouTube viewer
an understanding that the videos are an expression of Anthroposophy.
Anthroposophy isn't mentioned in your videos.
Is it ok to be deceptive because you have a noble purpose?
)In the written synopsis of the video and/or in the credits of the
)video itself, viewers are urged to visit MillennialChild.com, a web
)site that, as you know, is explicit about the intimate connection of
)Waldorf education to Rudolf Steiner and anthroposophy. As I said, a
)little video could never do justice to either Steiner or his
)worldview, but I hope that viewers become interested in looking more
)deeply - and that such a quest leads them to YOUR web sites as well
)as to ours.
So it's ok to be deceptive if viewers can find out the truth by doing
research? That's a novel new standard.
I talked with some YouTube aficionados about the practice of editing
comments. They told me that the comments are under the control of the
video poster, and some videomakers do edit them. The sure way to post
counter-arguments to a video, they told me, is to make a
counter-video.
)I don't imagine that what I've said will completely satisfy you, but
)I at least wanted you to know that I had read your email! It has
)been eight years since our never-to-be-forgotten debate (it is STILL
)a hot topic in some Waldorf circles). I remain grateful for the
)wake-up call that you delivered to the Waldorf movement, and I think
)that Waldorf schools are all the stronger for your deeds and words,
)even if no one is as yet inclined to send you flowers and chocolates.
Or you either! To the best of my knowledge, the wake-up call that we
delivered in 1999 hasn't had any effect on the Waldorf movement at
all.
)My best wishes to you for the new year, and, who knows, our paths
)may cross again.
I hope so, I look forward to seeing you again.
-Dan Dugan
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2. parallel with Mormonism
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 9:45 am ((PST))
New York Times Magazine
(http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/magazine/06mormonism-t.html)http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/magazine/06mormonism-t.html
January 6, 2008
What Is It About Mormonism?
Excerpt:
)...what began as a strategy of secrecy to avoid persecution has
)become over the course of the 20th century a strategy of minimizing
)discussion of the content of theology in order to avoid being
)treated as religious pariahs. As a result, Mormons have not
)developed a series of easily expressed and easily swallowed
)statements summarizing the content of their theology in ways that
)might arguably be accepted by mainline Protestants. To put it
)bluntly, the combination of secret mysteries and resistance in the
)face of oppression has made it increasingly difficult for Mormons to
)talk openly and successfully with outsiders about their religious
)beliefs.
Try substituting "Anthroposophists" for "Mormons" in the above text.
-Dan Dugan
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There are 3 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. when did Waldorf schools close?
From: Peter Staudenmaier
2a. revised version of old article
From: Peter Staudenmaier
2b. Re: revised version of old article
From: Dan Dugan
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1. when did Waldorf schools close?
Posted by: "Peter Staudenmaier" pstaud hotmail.com pstauden
Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 7:07 am ((PST))
Hello listmates,
I only have a few more sets of excerpts to share on Waldorf during the Nazi era, based on the dissertation chapter I recently finished on that topic. Today's example concerns one of the more persistent confusions among Waldorf supporters. As always, I welcome responses, particularly from admirers of Waldorf. New year's greetings to all,
Peter S.
Waldorf enthusiasts today often believe that the German Waldorf schools were shut down by a decree of the Nazi government. This is untrue. Of the nine Waldorf schools in Germany in 1933, two were shut down by various parts of the Nazi regime: The Stuttgart school by provincial-level authorities in 1938, and the Dresden school by the Gestapo in 1941. The other Waldorf schools closed on their own initiative in 1939 and 1940, for a variety of reasons, sometimes exacerbated by restrictive measures imposed by parts of the government (one of them closed even earlier, in 1936, for reasons that had nothing to do with the Nazis).
Anthroposophical sources sometimes give inaccurate dates for these self-closures. Uwe Werner's book Anthroposophen in der Zeit des Nationalsozialismus, p. 375, claims that the Altona Waldorf school closed in April 1936, the Hannover Waldorf school in July 1937, the Kassel Waldorf school in June 1938, and the Breslau Waldorf school in March 1939. Wenzel G�tte's dissertation �Erfahrungen mit Schulautonomie,� p. 544, citing Werner, reports the same dates. Werner�s dates refer to the earliest decision to close, rather than to the actual date of closure, and explicitly disregard the extensive 'Umschulungskurse' implemented by each Waldorf school to prepare their pupils for transferring to public schools. His data thus misrepresent by several years, in some cases, the date at which the schools ceased operation.
Werner�s claims are controverted by a mass of other evidence. One example is Emil K�hn, �Bericht des Vorstandes des Waldorfschulvereins,� Mitteilungen an die Mitglieder des Waldorfschulvereins Stuttgart, October 1937, p. 11, by an official of the League of Waldorf Schools, which refers unambiguously to eight Waldorf schools currently existing in Germany in October 1937; none of them had closed by that point. Ren� Maikowski, leader of the League of Waldorf Schools and head of the Hannover Waldorf school, reports that the Hannover school closed in April 1939, not July 1937 (see Maikowski, Schicksalswege auf der Suche nach dem lebendigen Geist, 159); this is supported by archival sources, e.g. a September 22, 1938 memorandum from the Ministry of Education.
In a March 1938 letter to the Ministry of Education, eight months after Werner claims the Hannover school had closed, Maikowski proposed the Hannover Waldorf school as a candidate for �experimental school� status, which meant official support from the Nazi state. The Hannover school was still a leading candidate for �experimental school� status in October 1938, according to an October 25, 1938 letter from the League of Waldorf Schools to the Ministry of Education. As late as April 1939, League of Waldorf Schools spokesperson Elisabeth Klein noted that the Hannover Waldorf school was not only still operating but still applying for �experimental school� status. (Klein's letter to Alfred Baeumler, April 2, 1939) Achim Leschinsky, �Waldorfschulen im Nationalsozialismus,� 272 indicates that the transitional courses, the 'Umschulungskurse', were not completed at the Hannover school until 1940. Archival sources also make clear that the Kassel school closed in March 1939, not June 1938.
Even the Berlin Waldorf school, which is sometimes held up as a shining example of a Waldorf school that decided to shut itself down rather than submit to further compromises with Nazi authorities, had a complicated history in this regard. After announcing in August 1937 their intention to close the following year, the faculty of the Berlin Waldorf school changed their minds a few months later. In December 1937 the school reversed course and applied for permission to rescind their prior announcement and continue operating past the following year. The municipal education authorities opposed this, and were backed by the Ministry of Education. In March 1938, when the process of 'Umschulung' or transitioning to public school was to have been completed and the school shut down entirely, the local school officials allowed the third and fourth grades to continue until April 1939 in order to prepare the Waldorf pupils adequately for transfer to public schools. Thus the 1937 decision for self-closure was not fully implemented until 1939. Also in March 1938, Maikowski proposed the Berlin Waldorf school as another candidate for �experimental school� status (Maikowski's March 25, 1938 letter to Ministry of Education). The possibility of recognition as an �experimental school� was still being pursued for the Berlin school even in April 1939 (Elisabeth Klein to Alfred Baeumler, April 2, 1939).
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. revised version of old article
Posted by: "Peter Staudenmaier" pstaud hotmail.com pstauden
Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 7:19 am ((PST))
Hello again Waldorf critics,
Last month the Scandinavian periodical Communalism published a newly revised version of my first article on Steiner's movement, "Anthroposophy and Ecofascism." I updated the text to account for some of the discussions that have occurred since then, as well as new information that has emerged in the interim and several instances in which I have changed my mind since the article originally appeared eight years ago. The new version has already garnered a very revealing reply from our erstwhile listmate Harlan Gilbert. In the following weeks, Communalism will also publish newly revised versions of my three follow-up articles, two in reply to Norwegian anthroposophist Peter Normann Waage and one in reply to Swedish anthroposophist G�ran Fant. The earlier versions of all of these articles are available at the PLANS site. Long-time listmates will recall that my original article sparked extremely heated disagreement from a variety of anthroposophists. Those interested can check out the new version of "Anthroposophy and Ecofascism" here:
http://www.communalism.net/
Greetings to all,
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: revised version of old article
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 10:02 am ((PST))
Peter Staudenmaier, you wrote:
)Last month the Scandinavian periodical
)Communalism published a newly revised version of
)my first article on Steiner's movement,
)"Anthroposophy and Ecofascism." I updated the
)text to account for some of the discussions that
)have occurred since then, as well as new
)information that has emerged in the interim and
)several instances in which I have changed my
)mind since the article originally appeared eight
)years ago. The new version has already garnered
)a very revealing reply from our erstwhile
)listmate Harlan Gilbert. In the following weeks,
)Communalism will also publish newly revised
)versions of my three follow-up articles, two in
)reply to Norwegian anthroposophist Peter Normann
)Waage and one in reply to Swedish
)anthroposophist G�ran Fant. The earlier versions
)of all of these articles are available at the
)PLANS site. Long-time listmates will recall that
)my original article sparked extremely heated
)disagreement from a variety of anthroposophists.
)Those interested can check out the new version
)of "Anthroposophy and Ecofascism" here:
)
)http://www.communalism.net/
Great! Unfortunately, it's a site built with
frames and I can't get a link to the article.
When can I post it on the PLANS site?
-Dan Dugan
Messages in this topic (2)
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There are 10 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Waldorf and the re-ascent of the German Volk
From: Peter Staudenmaier
2a. Re: Hello- new member- thanks for this site
From: Zooey
2b. Re: Hello- new member- thanks for this site
From: Zooey
2c. Re: Hello- new member- thanks for this site
From: ensemble451705
2d. Re: Hello- new member- thanks for this site
From: ensemble451705
2e. Re: Hello- new member- thanks for this site
From: Zooey
3a. Re: Epiphany/Three Kings and the evolution of races
From: Zooey
3b. Re: Epiphany/Three Kings and the evolution of races
From: Zooey
3c. Re: Epiphany/Three Kings and the evolution of races
From: winters_diana
4a. Re: revised version of old article
From: zooey_stockholm
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1. Waldorf and the re-ascent of the German Volk
Posted by: "Peter Staudenmaier" pstaud hotmail.com pstauden
Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 8:47 am ((PST))
Even after a series of severe setbacks for the positive vision of Waldorf education as part of the �new Germany�, the hope of Steiner's educational principles making a significant contribution to the education of the Nazi state continued to animate central segments of the Waldorf movement. The October 1937 newsletter of the Waldorf school in Stuttgart contains several examples. An internal report from the director of the school declared that �today as always, the teaching staff aspires to contribute to the constructive pedagogical measures of the state. The Waldorf school has much to contribute to these efforts of the state.� The report also noted with pride the role of Waldorf pupils within the Hitler Youth. Another article in the same newsletter reflected the combination of concern and hopeful expectation: "The basic mood of the participants in this year�s membership assembly of the Waldorf school association could be described as one of �anticipation.� In every face the anxious question could be seen: Will our efforts meet with understanding, will the contribution that we are willing to make to the rise of the new Germany be accepted?"
In spite of difficult circumstances and upcoming challenges, the article expressed confidence: �The conviction that our efforts are in accordance with the re-ascent of our German Volk and fatherland gives us the strength to meet these challenges.� This all-important re-ascent of Germany (Wiederaufstieg unseres deutschen Volkes und Vaterlandes) was cast in explicit reference to the Nazi �revolution� of 1933, seen as a great opportunity for the Waldorf movement:
"After the turn-around of our public life in 1933, the leadership of Germany recognized the renewal of the education of our youth as its most urgent task. Both the faculty of the Waldorf school and the Waldorf school association could hope that the years of selfless labor which they had contributed toward this task would now find recognition and support." (All quotes from Mitteilungen an die Mitglieder des Waldorfschulvereins Stuttgart, October 1937)
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Hello- new member- thanks for this site
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 2:12 pm ((PST))
Hi Cathy,
- nice to see you here!
I think there's a "never criticize the anthroposophists"-syndrome that has been infecting the whole world. They are so nice, and soft, and warm, not like the rest of the individualistic and materialistic lot - yeah, right.
-z
cathy223146 (cathybalme btinternet.com) wrote: Hi- thanks for these sites- and also others that have helped me after
our three children have left Steiner school. I love Zooey's blog, and
Roger Rawlings sites- My wondeful kids are the survivors of Planet
Steiner- I'm raging with fury- but also find anthroposophy fascinating
in it's madness! I can't get enough of it- and keep seeing things that
were said or happened in a new Steiner World light.
I know we've left a cult- my kids seem as if a veil has lifted- they
hadn't yet reached the "midwich cuckoo" stare that so many of the kids
have- but they're certainly different.
We weren't cult material- we asked too many questions and read too much-
and certainly we weren't "on the shining path".
What I would like to know- and change- is WHY the press - here in
Britain at any rate- are so hoodwinked by the anthros? There are often
articles in broadsheets singing the praises of natural, child centred,
liberal creative steiner Schools. They don't even publish letters
replying in dissent. What can be done about it?
I've posted some comments on youtube- but some have been blocked and
deleted.
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: Hello- new member- thanks for this site
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 2:19 pm ((PST))
I just have to add: the anthroposophists have a long and varied experience of successfully marketing crap. Pedagogy is probably somewhat easier to sell, if it is presented in a fluffy package, than useless cancer treatment and the rest of their things that don't work and can't be proven. Scary. If you believe something and it takes up all of your life and you also depend on it for survival, then of course the stakes are high. They need to be good at it. Otherwise no one at all would buy it (being as crappy as it is).
-z
Margaret Sachs (powerofjoy2004 yahoo.com) wrote:
Welcome to this list, Cathy. If there's one thing
Anthroposophists are good at it's knowing how to
present their product (Waldorf schools) in a way that
makes many parents believe it is the answer to their
hopes and dreams for their children. They remind me of
the shameless makers of infomercials who make
extravagant claims and use testimonials rather than
legitimate evidence to back them up.
Best,
Margaret
__________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: Hello- new member- thanks for this site
Posted by: "ensemble451705" davy.bd btinternet.com ensemble451705
Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 4:32 pm ((PST))
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, Zooey (skottehund ...) wrote:
)
) They need to be good at it. Otherwise no one at all would buy it
(being as crappy as it is).
) -z
)
I think there would *always* be some people floundering enough to
buy into anything that at least gives the impression, and maybe also
the feel of being beyond the ordinary.
Trouble is that there will never be enough, so *that* is where the
deceit and subterfuge is needed.
Davy
)
) __________________________________________________________
) Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
) http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
)
)
)
)
)
) ---------------------------------
) Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit
now.
)
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
2d. Re: Hello- new member- thanks for this site
Posted by: "ensemble451705" davy.bd btinternet.com ensemble451705
Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 4:33 pm ((PST))
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, Zooey (skottehund ...) wrote:
)
) They need to be good at it. Otherwise no one at all would buy it
(being as crappy as it is).
) -z
)
I think there would *always* be some people floundering enough to
buy into anything that at least gives the impression, and maybe also
the feel of being beyond the ordinary.
Trouble is that there will never be enough, so *that* is where the
deceit and subterfuge is needed.
Davy
)
) __________________________________________________________
) Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
) http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
)
)
)
)
)
) ---------------------------------
) Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit
now.
)
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
2e. Re: Hello- new member- thanks for this site
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 4:58 pm ((PST))
Well, you're right of course. The earth is populated with people who buy all sorts of silliness without questioning. They are everywhere, and I just forgot about them for a moment there. I thought, well, the anthroposophists need good marketing to confuse people's sense of logic and reason enough to buy their crap... but a lot of the time there's not much logic and reason present to fight the stupidity in the first place.
A few return visits to anthro web sites might cure me of this mis-conception of a reasonable humanity ;)
But, anyway, you're right, the support of the very "spiritually" inclined bunch isn't enough to sustain the movement financially (or at all).
-z
ensemble451705 (davy.bd btinternet.com) wrote: --- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, Zooey (skottehund ...) wrote:
)
) They need to be good at it. Otherwise no one at all would buy it
(being as crappy as it is).
) -z
)
I think there would *always* be some people floundering enough to
buy into anything that at least gives the impression, and maybe also
the feel of being beyond the ordinary.
Trouble is that there will never be enough, so *that* is where the
deceit and subterfuge is needed.
Davy
)
) __________________________________________________________
) Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
) http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
)
)
)
)
)
) ---------------------------------
) Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit
now.
)
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
---------------------------------
Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Epiphany/Three Kings and the evolution of races
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 2:36 pm ((PST))
Swedish winter school leave extends over the 6th of Jan. and I can't remember how they went about celebrating this event (my parents apparently weren't inspired to celebrate anthing at home anyway!). I know we had a lot of "education" on Isis and Osiris - when and what is really lost for me. I also remember the talking of the three kings, but i don't know when. Probably around christmas. Every year around christmas we had to watch the "Jesus"-play (sorry, I don't remember the name, but I distincly remember it was announced every year with a large blue sign made of cloth, picturing stars and some version of the nativity scene, I believe). Jesus was born and then there was a lot of stuff about the three kings who made the trip to see him. The bible essentially, but with a lot of focus on the kings visit. Older kids had to watch the Paradise-play too. This was about Adam and Eve in the garden of eden. (Green cloth sign depicting the tree with apples!)
Not much variation, none really, the same outfits, scenery and wordings every year.
-z
winters_diana (diana.winters verizon.net) wrote:
I recommend the following lecture, available at the Rudolf Steiner
archive, to current or prospective Waldorf parents interested in the
anthroposophical significance of the Epiphany or Three Kings holiday,
or the twelfth day of Christmas. At our school, anthroposophists
insisted this holiday was more important than Christmas. This Steiner
lecture may indicate why.
http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Christmas/19041230p01.html
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Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Epiphany/Three Kings and the evolution of races
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 2:48 pm ((PST))
Some of them do a great job at showing just how nutty anthroposophists are.
I liked this line, though:
"---it's not like you are the newest car on the block and that the rest are old and in a state of retiring from service."
The car analogy just didn't seem to fit in very well with all the spiritual nuttiness.
-z
winters_diana (diana.winters verizon.net) wrote: I posted the Three Kings material over on AT, and got the following
reply from a dyed-in-the-wool anthroposophist:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/36062
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: Epiphany/Three Kings and the evolution of races
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 6:39 pm ((PST))
Yes there is no doubt that Three Kings stuff has some special
significance, but there are only coy replies from anthroposophists
who might give us some hint as to why - they leave us to find our own
hints - like the lecture explaining the racial symbolism in the story.
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, Zooey (skottehund ...) wrote:
)
) Swedish winter school leave extends over the 6th of Jan. and I
can't remember how they went about celebrating this event (my parents
apparently weren't inspired to celebrate anthing at home anyway!). I
know we had a lot of "education" on Isis and Osiris - when and what
is really lost for me. I also remember the talking of the three
kings, but i don't know when. Probably around christmas. Every year
around christmas we had to watch the "Jesus"-play (sorry, I don't
remember the name, but I distincly remember it was announced every
year with a large blue sign made of cloth, picturing stars and some
version of the nativity scene, I believe). Jesus was born and then
there was a lot of stuff about the three kings who made the trip to
see him. The bible essentially, but with a lot of focus on the kings
visit. Older kids had to watch the Paradise-play too. This was about
Adam and Eve in the garden of eden. (Green cloth sign depicting the
tree with apples!)
)
) Not much variation, none really, the same outfits, scenery and
wordings every year.
)
) -z
)
) winters_diana (diana.winters ...)
wrote:
) I recommend the following lecture, available at the Rudolf Steiner
) archive, to current or prospective Waldorf parents interested in
the
) anthroposophical significance of the Epiphany or Three Kings
holiday,
) or the twelfth day of Christmas. At our school, anthroposophists
) insisted this holiday was more important than Christmas. This
Steiner
) lecture may indicate why.
)
) http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Christmas/19041230p01.html
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
) ---------------------------------
) Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo!
for Good
)
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: revised version of old article
Posted by: "zooey_stockholm" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 3:23 pm ((PST))
Can't you link to the "print version" on the web site?
http://www.communalism.net/Archive/13/ae.print.php
Or the pdf:
http://www.communalism.net/Archive/13/ae.pdf
Or would that appear weird?
-z
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, Dan Dugan (dan ...) wrote:
)
) Great! Unfortunately, it's a site built with
) frames and I can't get a link to the article.
) When can I post it on the PLANS site?
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
Messages in this topic (3)
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There are 5 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: revised version of old article
From: Dan Dugan
2a. Re: suppressing critical comments
From: cathy223146
3a. Re: Top Ten 2.0
From: cathy223146
4. Waldorf goals and Nazi goals
From: Peter Staudenmaier
5a. AW: [wc] Epiphany/Three Kings and the evolution of races
From: Bruce Jackson
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: revised version of old article
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:11 am ((PST))
Zooey, you wrote,
)Can't you link to the "print version" on the web site?
)
)http://www.communalism.net/Archive/13/ae.print.php
That will work! Thanks, Zooey.
-Dan Dugan
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: suppressing critical comments
Posted by: "cathy223146" cathybalme btinternet.com cathy223146
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:37 am ((PST))
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, Dan Dugan (dan ...) wrote:
This is such an eloquent argumet Dan- you give him no choice but to
tie himself in a knot.
Cathy
) Eugene Schwartz has verified that he has blocked critical comments
on
) his Waldorf-promoting videos on YouTube. Schwartz wrote:
)
) )Thank you for your email, and for your very kind expression of
) )admiration. However . . . . It IS so. I have blocked several users
) )who visited the two eurythmy trailers that I set up as well as the
) )recent "Discover Waldorf Education" video.
) )
) )Do you really feel that YouTube.com is a venue for the serious
) )discussion of issues? Isn't it a lot closer to being the Internet
) )version of "People" magazine than, let's say, "Harper's" or "The
New
) )York Review of Books"? A three-to-five minute video is hardly the
) )place to present anything profound about subjects as complex as
) )eurythmy or Waldorf education, nor is a little "Comment/Reply" box
) )the best place to make a meaningful comment on the video itself,
not
) )to speak of commenting on its underlying philosophy.
)
) So what if you don't think the medium is serious or profound? It
must
) be important enough for you to spend effort on it. The comment box
is
) there to invite comments. You are the host; how should you treat
your
) guests?
)
) )The videos that I have uploaded are, in essence, advertising: the
) )eurythmy videos invite people to purchase a much longer eurythmy
DVD
) )while the "Discover Waldorf" video is advertising Waldorf
education.
) )Any advertiser will set up circumstances so that his advertisement
) )is in the most effective place, and he will control circumstances
to
) )the best of his ability to maintain a positive setting for his
) )advertisement. An animal-rights activist is unlikely to buy
) )advertising space in "Hunting World" magazine. In that respect my
) )action had nothing to do with "cult-like behavior" and everything
to
) )do with common sense. "Tenguineas" and "Aurumvore" are not the
only
) )viewers I have blocked; wherever offensive language was used I
felt
) )that I was justified in removing the comment and blocking the
) )writer. YouTube recognizes the right of its contributors to
control
) )their setting by blocking users, and I, like thousands of other
) )YouTube contributors, have availed myself of that right.
)
) OK, I understand. It's commercial. You're not concerned with the
) ethics of suppressing the comments that the site invites--it's the
) bottom line. How very spiritual of you.
)
) )I have visited a number of other Waldorf-related sites and I've
) )noticed that tenguineas, in particular, has been writing comments
at
) )quite a few of them. Regardless of the particular content of the
) )site, he writes basically the same set of warnings about the
motives
) )of the Waldorf movement.
)
) Now you make a illogical ad-hominem argument. You delete a person's
) critical comments because he or she is critical. Um.
)
) )He is certainly free to exercise his freedom of speech,
)
) Except where you have control...
)
) )and, since most Waldorf sites are not intensively supervised, his
) )comments will generally not be deleted, nor will he be prevented
) )from visiting repeatedly.
)
) So it's ok to delete invited comments because people can express
) themselves elsewhere.
)
) )However, I predict that he will find that most YouTube visitors
come
) )for the videos and NOT for the comments - I doubt whether most of
) )those comments are ever looked at, no less read and pondered -- so
) )he may be disappointed at the tepid results that even his most
) )provocative comments obtain. With that in mind, I feel no guilt
) )about showing him (her?) the door.
)
) It's ok to censor invited speech because most people won't notice?
) Another interesting kind of ethics.
)
) )One clarification: Tenguineas implied that I was concealing the
) )close connection of anthroposophy and Waldorf education. In the
) )videos that I upload to YouTube, "anthroposophy" is always a
) )keyword, as is "rudolf steiner."
)
) The keywords will direct a person who's looking for Anthroposophy
or
) Steiner to the video. They are no help at all giving a YouTube
viewer
) an understanding that the videos are an expression of
Anthroposophy.
) Anthroposophy isn't mentioned in your videos.
)
) Is it ok to be deceptive because you have a noble purpose?
)
) )In the written synopsis of the video and/or in the credits of the
) )video itself, viewers are urged to visit MillennialChild.com, a
web
) )site that, as you know, is explicit about the intimate connection
of
) )Waldorf education to Rudolf Steiner and anthroposophy. As I said,
a
) )little video could never do justice to either Steiner or his
) )worldview, but I hope that viewers become interested in looking
more
) )deeply - and that such a quest leads them to YOUR web sites as
well
) )as to ours.
)
) So it's ok to be deceptive if viewers can find out the truth by
doing
) research? That's a novel new standard.
)
) I talked with some YouTube aficionados about the practice of
editing
) comments. They told me that the comments are under the control of
the
) video poster, and some videomakers do edit them. The sure way to
post
) counter-arguments to a video, they told me, is to make a
) counter-video.
)
) )I don't imagine that what I've said will completely satisfy you,
but
) )I at least wanted you to know that I had read your email! It has
) )been eight years since our never-to-be-forgotten debate (it is
STILL
) )a hot topic in some Waldorf circles). I remain grateful for the
) )wake-up call that you delivered to the Waldorf movement, and I
think
) )that Waldorf schools are all the stronger for your deeds and
words,
) )even if no one is as yet inclined to send you flowers and
chocolates.
)
) Or you either! To the best of my knowledge, the wake-up call that
we
) delivered in 1999 hasn't had any effect on the Waldorf movement at
) all.
)
) )My best wishes to you for the new year, and, who knows, our paths
) )may cross again.
)
) I hope so, I look forward to seeing you again.
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Top Ten 2.0
Posted by: "cathy223146" cathybalme btinternet.com cathy223146
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:45 am ((PST))
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, "Roger Rawlings"
(downfromfog ...) wrote:
)
) Hi. This is a test. I've tried to implement Dan's advice on how to
avoid sending messages
) that need to be unwrapped. Let's see if I succeeded.
)
) I recently revised my Top Ten list. Here's the new version:
)
) 10) "[A]n island like Great Britain swims in the sea and is held
fast by the forces of the
) stars." [1]
)
) 9) "When the physical constitution of the human being was nearer to
the divine, he sucked
) milk out of his surroundings." [2]
)
) 8) "A major portion of the animals, particularly the higher
animals, rose within earthly
) evolution only because human beings needed to use their elbows..."
[3]
)
) 7) "In the head or in the brain, the human body is constantly
falling apart." [4]
)
) 6) "The animal man of the Moon does not yet have firm bones." [5]
)
) 5) "The group soul of a beehive is a very high level being...It has
attained a level of
) evolutionary development that human beings will later reach...."
[6]
)
) 4) "Gnomes are...unable to grasp how there can be anything but an
ineffectual
) relationship with [our] world." [7]
)
) 3) [Speaking of human evolution] "The human being was at that time
only jelly-like in
) external form." [8]
)
) 2) "[Science] sees the heart as a pump that pumps blood through the
body. Now there is
) nothing more absurd than believing this, for the heart has nothing
to do with pumping the
) blood." [9]
)
) --Roger
Hi Roger,
God, I love this stuff. I'm comparatively new to all of this. What
about the blond hair and intelligence one?- not in the top ten?
Cathy
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4. Waldorf goals and Nazi goals
Posted by: "Peter Staudenmaier" pstaud hotmail.com pstauden
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:06 pm ((PST))
The depth of the Waldorf movement�s commitment to the German national community can perhaps best be assessed by examining one of the more thorough contemporary sources on the pedagogical perspective of long-time Waldorf leaders, a series of reflections on educational principles and practices sent by E. A. Karl Stockmeyer to Alfred Baeumler in 1939. Stockmeyer (1886-1963), one of the founding fathers of Waldorf education, had been a member of Steiner�s Esoteric School since 1907, and remained a central figure in the Waldorf movement after WWII. His 1939 correspondence with Baeumler (1887-1968), one of the leading Nazi authorities in the field of pedagogy, is not mentioned in the existing literature on the Waldorf movement during the Third Reich.
Baeumler was a high official on the staff of chief Nazi ideologist Alfred Rosenberg and headed the Office of Science in the so-called Amt Rosenberg, the bureaucracy nominally in charge of ideological education within the Nazi party. In December 1939, with the war underway, Stockmeyer sent Baeumler a copy of an essay Stockmeyer had recently completed, titled �The Goal of German Education.� The 20 page document is another attempt to reconcile National Socialism and anthroposophy.
Stockmeyer offered a synthesis of Baeumler�s pedagogical writings with Steiner�s works, quoting extensively from both, as well as from Alfred Rosenberg�s tome The Myth of the Twentieth Century. Stockmeyer developed a theory of �spiritual-soul-bodily existence� and outlined an educational approach befitting the German character in its current �cultural struggle� against materialism and its corollaries. Building on the philosophical basis provided by Rosenberg and Baeumler, Stockmeyer heralded Steiner�s teachings as the culmination of the �German worldview.� In contrast to the deficient worldviews of the French and English, the German worldview is anchored in �honor and loyalty,� and provides the pedagogical foundation for the state.
Having thus established the groundwork for his educational vision, Stockmeyer ventured a partial endorsement of National Socialist thought, while simultaneously criticizing standard Nazi conceptions of the intertwined concepts of race and people as excessively materialistic. The �physical reality of race� must be complemented by the �soul-reality of Volk,� the bodily must be integrated with the spiritual. A one-sided focus on the physical and material aspects of race, Stockmeyer warned, is distinctly un-German, a capitulation to English materialism. While acknowledging that the English are also of �Nordic blood,� he blamed them for unleashing a �war of lies� against Germany; just as the English are seizing German ships on the seas, so are materialistic English ideas seizing German minds. The way to overcome this materialist distortion of proper German thinking, Stockmeyer explained, is through Steiner�s doctrine of harmony among soul, spirit, and body. Because Steiner�s work is the pure product of the German soul, uncorrupted by materialist deformations and English falsifications, it �must become the indisputable measure of judgement for all educational aims and goals.� This is a striking instance of Waldorf spokespeople claiming that Steiner's ideas must be seen as the standard against which all pedagogical efforts in Nazi Germany were to be measured.
Stockmeyer, by the way, had explored a related constellation of themes in a revealing pamphlet two decades earlier, at the downfall of the Wilhelmine empire; see E. A. Karl Stockmeyer, Vom deutschen Volksstaat und von der deutschen Erziehung (Mannheim, December 1918), which among other things called for erecting an ethno-nationalist state, a �v�lkischen Staat� in Germany rather than submitting to �the democracy imposed on us by the West.�
Peter Staudenmaier
_________________________________________________________________
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. AW: [wc] Epiphany/Three Kings and the evolution of races
Posted by: "Bruce Jackson" bruceylists freenet.de bruceyj
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:23 pm ((PST))
I�m not sure what the confusion is here: in an attempt to sort things out�
There are three �Ober�fer� Plays:
The Paradise Play which is based on Genesis, where Adam and Eve are created
and then cast out of Paradise.
The Shepherds Play, which is based on the Matthew Gospel, where Joseph and
Mary are forced to Bethlehem by the new tax-census, find a place to stay in
a stable where Jesus is born and then are visited by the three shepherds.
The Kings Play, which is based on the Luke Gospel, where Mary, Joseph and
Jesus are visited by the three Kings and King Herod kills all children under
three, attempting thereby to kill Jesus but not succeeding.
Hope that this is clear. I MAY have the Gospels wrong (I just moved and have
all my things packed away � I�ll post a correction if necessary, unless
someone else does)
Happy New Year!
Bruce
_____
Von: waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com
[mailto:waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von winters_diana
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. Januar 2008 03:39
An: waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com
Betreff: Re: [wc] Epiphany/Three Kings and the evolution of races
Yes there is no doubt that Three Kings stuff has some special
significance, but there are only coy replies from anthroposophists
who might give us some hint as to why - they leave us to find our own
hints - like the lecture explaining the racial symbolism in the story.
--- In waldorf-critics (mailto:waldorf-critics%40yahoogroups.com)
yahoogroups.com, Zooey (skottehund ...) wrote:
)
) Swedish winter school leave extends over the 6th of Jan. and I
can't remember how they went about celebrating this event (my parents
apparently weren't inspired to celebrate anthing at home anyway!). I
know we had a lot of "education" on Isis and Osiris - when and what
is really lost for me. I also remember the talking of the three
kings, but i don't know when. Probably around christmas. Every year
around christmas we had to watch the "Jesus"-play (sorry, I don't
remember the name, but I distincly remember it was announced every
year with a large blue sign made of cloth, picturing stars and some
version of the nativity scene, I believe). Jesus was born and then
there was a lot of stuff about the three kings who made the trip to
see him. The bible essentially, but with a lot of focus on the kings
visit. Older kids had to watch the Paradise-play too. This was about
Adam and Eve in the garden of eden. (Green cloth sign depicting the
tree with apples!)
)
) Not much variation, none really, the same outfits, scenery and
wordings every year.
)
) -z
)
) winters_diana (diana.winters ...)
wrote:
) I recommend the following lecture, available at the Rudolf Steiner
) archive, to current or prospective Waldorf parents interested in
the
) anthroposophical significance of the Epiphany or Three Kings
holiday,
) or the twelfth day of Christmas. At our school, anthroposophists
) insisted this holiday was more important than Christmas. This
Steiner
) lecture may indicate why.
)
) http://wn.rsarchive
(http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Christmas/19041230p01.html)
.org/Lectures/Christmas/19041230p01.html
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
) ---------------------------------
) Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo!
for Good
)
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
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There are 5 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Epiphany/Three Kings and the evolution of races
From: winters_diana
2. To the Moon, Alice
From: Roger Rawlings
3a. Re: Top Ten 2.0
From: Roger Rawlings
3b. Waldorf Teachers . . . ?
From: awaldenpond shaw.ca
4a. Re: AW: [wc] Epiphany/Three Kings and the evolution of races
From: Zooey
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Epiphany/Three Kings and the evolution of races
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:47 am ((PST))
And why is Three Kings stressed? Why is Epiphany more important than
Christmas?
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Jackson"
(bruceylists ...) wrote:
)
) I'm not sure what the confusion is here: in an attempt to sort
things out�
)
)
)
) There are three "Ober�fer" Plays:
)
) The Paradise Play which is based on Genesis, where Adam and Eve
are created
) and then cast out of Paradise.
)
) The Shepherds Play, which is based on the Matthew Gospel, where
Joseph and
) Mary are forced to Bethlehem by the new tax-census, find a place
to stay in
) a stable where Jesus is born and then are visited by the three
shepherds.
)
) The Kings Play, which is based on the Luke Gospel, where Mary,
Joseph and
) Jesus are visited by the three Kings and King Herod kills all
children under
) three, attempting thereby to kill Jesus but not succeeding.
)
)
)
) Hope that this is clear. I MAY have the Gospels wrong (I just
moved and have
) all my things packed away � I'll post a correction if necessary,
unless
) someone else does)
)
) Happy New Year!
)
) Bruce
)
)
)
) _____
)
) Von: waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com
) [mailto:waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von
winters_diana
) Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. Januar 2008 03:39
) An: waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com
) Betreff: Re: [wc] Epiphany/Three Kings and the evolution of races
)
)
)
) Yes there is no doubt that Three Kings stuff has some special
) significance, but there are only coy replies from anthroposophists
) who might give us some hint as to why - they leave us to find our
own
) hints - like the lecture explaining the racial symbolism in the
story.
)
) --- In waldorf-critics (mailto:waldorf-critics%40yahoogroups.com)
) yahoogroups.com, Zooey (skottehund ) wrote:
) )
) ) Swedish winter school leave extends over the 6th of Jan. and I
) can't remember how they went about celebrating this event (my
parents
) apparently weren't inspired to celebrate anthing at home anyway!).
I
) know we had a lot of "education" on Isis and Osiris - when and
what
) is really lost for me. I also remember the talking of the three
) kings, but i don't know when. Probably around christmas. Every
year
) around christmas we had to watch the "Jesus"-play (sorry, I don't
) remember the name, but I distincly remember it was announced every
) year with a large blue sign made of cloth, picturing stars and
some
) version of the nativity scene, I believe). Jesus was born and then
) there was a lot of stuff about the three kings who made the trip
to
) see him. The bible essentially, but with a lot of focus on the
kings
) visit. Older kids had to watch the Paradise-play too. This was
about
) Adam and Eve in the garden of eden. (Green cloth sign depicting
the
) tree with apples!)
) )
) ) Not much variation, none really, the same outfits, scenery and
) wordings every year.
) )
) ) -z
) )
) ) winters_diana (diana.winters )
) wrote:
) ) I recommend the following lecture, available at the Rudolf
Steiner
) ) archive, to current or prospective Waldorf parents interested in
) the
) ) anthroposophical significance of the Epiphany or Three Kings
) holiday,
) ) or the twelfth day of Christmas. At our school, anthroposophists
) ) insisted this holiday was more important than Christmas. This
) Steiner
) ) lecture may indicate why.
) )
) ) http://wn.rsarchive
) (http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Christmas/19041230p01.html)
) .org/Lectures/Christmas/19041230p01.html
) )
) )
) )
) )
) )
) )
) )
) )
) ) ---------------------------------
) ) Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo!
) for Good
) )
) ) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
) )
)
)
)
)
)
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2. To the Moon, Alice
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:42 am ((PST))
Hi.
In a previous posting, I said that Steiner said that some humans moved to the Moon long
ago. My astonishing claim could use some substantiation. (There can, of course, be no
substantiation of Steiner's astonishing claim.) So, here goes. (And we'll go well beyond the
measly Moon.)
"[W]hat does interest us is the fact that the moon today is like a fortress in the universe, in
which there lives a population that fulfilled its human destiny over 15,000 years ago, after
which it withdrew to the moon together with the spiritual guides of humanity...This is only
one of the `cities' in the universe, one colony, one settlement among many...As far as what
concerns ourselves, as humanity on earth, the other pole, the opposite extreme to the
moon is the population of Saturn." [RUDOLF STEINER SPEAKS TO THE BRITISH (Rudolf
Steiner Press, 1998), p. 93.]
"If, as he had developed on the Sun, man was called plant man, the man of the Moon can
be called animal man...As the Sun man could only elevate himself into a plant by thrusting
a portion of his companions down into a coarser mineral realm, so this is now the case
with the animal man of the Moon. A portion of the beings which on the Sun still had the
same plant nature as himself, he leaves behind him on the level of coarser plantlike-ness
[sic]...The animal man of the Moon does not yet have firm bones. His skeleton is still
cartilaginous. His whole nature is soft, compared to that of today. Hence his mobility too
is different. His locomotion is not a walking, but rather a leaping, even a floating. This
could be the case because the Moon of that time did not have a thin, airy atmosphere like
that of present-day earth, but its envelope was considerably thicker, even denser than the
water of today...At that time man was not yet developed in the form of two sexes, but only
in one. He was made out of his water air. " [Rudolf Steiner, COSMIC MEMORY: Prehistory of
Earth and Man, from the chapter "Life on the Moon" (SteinerBooks, 1987) pp. 193-195.]
"There were also [superhuman spiritual] beings who had detached Mars from the common
cosmic substance and made it their dwelling place under the leadership of their most
advanced member. A third type of human beings fell under their influence. These were
'Mars humans,' who also came into existence through interbreeding...We can also
distinguish 'Saturn humans.' The being who appears as their higher I had to leave the
common cosmic substance along with his associates already [sic] before the Sun's
separation from the Earth. In human beings of this type, both the life body and the
physical body had portions that remained untouched by the Luciferic influence. [But] in
the case of the lower types of human beings, the life body was too unprotected to be able
to withstand the Luciferic influence." [Rudolf Steiner, AN OUTLINE OF ESOTERIC SCIENCE
(SteinerBooks, 1997), pp. 238-239.]
"Just as the leaders of the Sun's evolution became the higher I that worked in the life body
of the descendants of human beings who had remained on Earth, this Jupiter leader
became the higher I that spread like a common consciousness through the human beings
who had their origins in the interbreeding of Earth offspring with humans who first
appeared on Earth during the period of the air element and then moved to Jupiter. In the
sense of spiritual science [i.e., Anthroposophy], we can call these the `Jupiter humans.'"
[Ibid., p. 238.]
"The last planet which can still be counted among the series of earthly transformations,
and hence follows Venus, is called `Vulcan'...On this planet the provisional goal of the
development of humanity is obtained." [COSMIC MEMORY, p. 163.]
Ah, Star Trek. Those were the days.
Steiner usually claimed that his references to other planets (he called both the Moon and
the Sun planets) were actually references to stages of human evolution. He was active in
trying to wriggle out of the clear meaning of many of his statements. The quotes, above,
clearly refer to physical planets and humans "on" them. So I would argue, anyway. (I
remember Bruce arguing, so time ago, that Steiner often spoke "metaphorically." This may
be what he meant: Steiner often tried to dodge the actual, literal denotation of his words. I
wonder why. (Steinwer occasionally admitted that his teachings would seem to be from
"cloud-cuckoo-land" to non-Anthroposophists. He was aware of what he was doing, and
he tried to erect defenses. Such as his claim that only initiates in Anthroposophy could
understand the tenets of Anthroposophy. This is what Nixon called deniability. It reminds
me of a book I bought as a lad: TEN PROOFS OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD, or something of
the sort, written by a Catholic priest. I never got past the foreword, in which the priest
explained that for any of the proofs to be conclusive, you first had to believe that God
exists. Even as a lad, I recognized a b.s. tautology when I saw one.))
--Roger
P.S. I've been going back over the pages at waldorf-problems.com and steiner-
predicts.com. I set up those sites pretty quickly, so the contents were at first a bit sketchy
and typo-plagued. With each pass, I'll try to make these two sites�and my original site
(homepage.mac.com/nonlevitating/index.html � what a great name for a site)�stronger
and more compelling. If you glance at any of my stuff, and have any suggestions (or spot
any of my apparently inevitable typos), I'd be grateful.
P.P.S. I told Dan, a whole back, that I had finished posting new material on the new sites.
He replied, "I've heard that before [from you, i.e., me, viz., Roger.]" Too true. He knew me
better than I knew myself. I've added additional pages and more stuff at both sites. I really,
truly hope I'm finished now. But I doubt it. Gold help me.
In my last posting, I spoke of humans who moved to the Moon long ago. I wasn't being
flip, although the term "long ago" may be worthy of some examination. But first:
"Just as the leaders of the Sun's evolution became the higher I that worked in the life body
of the descendants of human beings who had remained on Earth, this Jupiter leader
became the higher I that spread like a common consciousness through the human beings
who had their origins in the interbreeding of Earth offspring with humans who first
appeared on Earth during the period of the air element and then moved to Jupiter. In the
sense of spiritual science [i.e., Anthroposophy], we can call these the `Jupiter humans.'"
[Rudolf Steiner, AN OUTLINE OF ESOTERIC SCIENCE (SteinerBooks, 1997), p. 238.]
Is Steiner speaking of our past or of the future's past? Where, from an Anthroposophical
point of view, should we locate the past? Imagine you have access to the Akashic
Record(s). You can peer far into the past. But can you see far into the future? The record(s)
provide information about everything that has happened. But what about things yet to
happen? Can you see them? You can, if the future mirrors the past and the past mirrors
the future�or if one is implicit in the other, with lines of causality running in both
directions. Fortunately for Steiner, this is just how things are (according to Steiner). Ages
and Epochs and Conditions (etc.) to come are implicit in what came before, even long
before. You can stand in the distant future and discern the distant past (which may yet be
future to the rest of us). Ditto the persepctive the distant past gives you regarding the far
future (which may yet be in our past). Depicting conditions that surpass understanding
necessarily leaves everyone but yourself gasping.
It's also useful to remember that Steiner spoke of locations as interchangeable with
periods of time and, of ourse, stages of spiritual manifestation and evolution. For
example:
�
"By Moon, we mean a former state of the earth that existed in the past and then, just as a
humans being passes through a spiritual state after death, went through a spiritual state
called palaya [a footnote defines this as dissolution, i.e., a state of rest]. Just as the human
being reincarnates, so this lunar planet [sic] reincarnated as Earth. Further, what we have
characterized as this lunar planetary state is, in fact, the reincarnation of a still earlier
state, which we call the Sun [sic]." [Rudolf Steiner, THE SPIRITUAL HIERARCHIES AND THE
PHYSICAL WORLD: Reality and Illusion (Rudolf Steiner Press, 1996), p. 53.]
Of course, modern physics presents an incomprehensible reality, too. But it is based on
firm experimentation and observation, not on mysticism. I've argued before that "spiritual
science" has nothing at all to do with science. Steiner himself often drew a line between
himself and science�we've seen many examples. Indeed, I'd submit that "spiritual
science" is a form of oxymoron. But perhaps I've said enough. (Except to add that there is
obviously a contradiction in arguing that people's actions count for something�
determining the future evolution of the individual and the race and the entire family of
humanity�while also arguing that the future can be foretold. This is the old conundrum
about free will vs. God's omniscience. Steiner's claim of profound occult knowledge
permits him to share in God's dilemma. But I'm verging on an ad hominem. So let's move
on.)
I'll close with this:
"If, as he had developed on the Sun, man was called plant man, the man of the Moon can
be called animal man...As the Sun man could only elevate himself into a plant by thrusting
a portion of his companions down into a coarser mineral realm, so this is now the case
with the animal man of the Moon. A portion of the beings which on the Sun still had the
same plant nature as himself, he leaves behind him on the level of coarser plantlike-ness
[sic]. As the animal man of the Moon is not like the animals of today, but rather stands
midway between present animal and present man, so too the mineral of the Moon lies
between the mineral of today and the plant of today. The mineral of the Moon is
something plantlike [sic]. The Moon rocks are not stones in the sense of today; they have
an animated, sprouting, growing character. Similarly, the Moon plant has a certain
character of animality [sic].
"The animal man of the Moon does not yet have firm bones. His skeleton is still
cartilaginous. His whole nature is soft, compared to that of today. Hence his mobility too
is different. His locomotion is not a walking, but rather a leaping, even a floating. This
could be the case because the Moon of that time did not have a thin, airy atmosphere like
that of present-day earth, but its envelope was considerably thicker, even denser than the
water of today. He moved forward and backward, up and down in this viscous element. In
this element also lived the minerals and animals from which he absorbed his nourishment.
In this element was even contained the power which later on the earth was wholly
transferred to the beings themselves�the power of fertilization. At that time man was not
yet developed in the form of two sexes, but only in one. He was made out of his water air.
But as everything in the world exists in transitional stages, in the last Moon periods, two-
sexedness [sic] was already developing in a few animal man beings as a preparation for
the later condition of the earth." [Rudolf Steiner, COSMIC MEMORY: PREHISTORY OF EARTH
AND MAN, from the chapter "Life on the Moon" (SteinerBooks, 1987) pp. 193-195.]
Note the present tense. But also study the subtitle: "Prehistory..." And recall that in the
previous quote, Steiner speaks of "a former state of the earth that existed in the past [a
rather tautological description: former states would, indeed, be prior to the present
state]." So, have we nailed down the truth that this all happened in the distant past? I
know what I think. What do you conclude?
--Roger
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Top Ten 2.0
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:59 am ((PST))
Hi, Cathy.
Yes, that's a good 'un. It believe it used to be on my top 10, but the more Steiner I read,
the more of what Margartet calls "stunners" I find. So the list evolves. But the "blond"
quote does show up on my "Selected Quotations" list. Here's an excerpt from that list,
since you love this stuff (music to my ears).
By the way, please excuse me if I fail to reply to some messages. My time is very limited,
these days. I don't read the wc list as much as I'd like, so I probably miss various
messages that are sent my way. I apologize.
--Roger
) "[W]hen man first began to inhabit the earth as man (that is to say, in the ancient
Lemurian epoch), he was already then destined by high-spiritual beings to acquire occult
knowledge...[But} through the encroachment of Luciferic beings, man diverted his power of
thought and other soul-powers...to those things that belong to the physical world."
[Rudolf Steiner, OCCULT SCIENCE AND OCCULT DEVELOPMENT (Kessinger Publishing,
2003), p. 8.]
) "[T]he Mercury initiates laid the basis for knowledge of more supersensible things, and
the Vulcan initiates did this to an even greater extent...[This] distinguished them from the
Saturn, Jupiter, and Mars initiates." [Rudolf Steiner, AN OUTLINE OF ESOTERIC SCIENCE
(Anthroposophic Press, 1997), pp. 244-245.]
) [Punishment: RS addressing teachers at Waldorf] "We may never place ourselves in a
situation where we may have to relent in a disciplinary decision...With punishment, we
cannot relent." [Rudolf Steiner, FACULTY MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER (Hudson, NY:
Anthroposophic Press, 1998), p. 109.]
) [Waldorf's Religious Agenda]: "Among the faculty...we should always remember that
when we do something, we are actually carrying out the intentions of the gods [sic:
plural]...." [FACULTY MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER, p. 55.]
) [Clairvoyance: Goblins] "There are beings that can be seen with clairvoyant vision at
many spots in the depths of the earth...Many names have been given to them, such as
goblins, gnomes and so forth...Their nature prompts them to play all sorts of tricks on
man...." [Rudolf Steiner, NATURE SPIRITS. Lectures from 1908-1924 (London: Rudolf
Steiner Press, 1995), pp. 62-3.]
) [Punishment] "If you give them [i.e., students] a slap, you should do it the way Dr.
Schubert [one of the Waldorf teachers] does...There are physical slaps and astral slaps. It
doesn't matter which one you give, but you cannot slap a child sentimentally." [FACULTY
MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER, pp. 323.]
) [Reincarnation] "[R]ealize that looking at the human head you are looking at the
transformed body of your previous earth life, and that the head you had then was the
transformed body of your preceding life�you must imagine it without the head, of course.
The head you see now is the transformed organism of the last life lived on earth. The rest
of the organism as you see it now will be the head in the next life. Then the arms will
have metamorphosed and become ears, and the legs will have become eyes." [POLARITIES
IN THE EVOLUTION OF MANKIND, p. 59.]
) [Punishment] "[P]unishment is given for the sake of exerting soul forces so that
consciousness will extend into spheres it did not previously reach. This is also the task of
repentance." [Rudolf Steiner, NECESSITY AND FREEDOM, (SteinerBooks, 1988), p. 77.]
) [Out-of-Body Experiences, Astrological Forces] "It is above all the moon forces that
connect man's astral and ego organization with his physical and etheric organisms [i.e.,
physical and nonphysical 'bodies']. Every night, when out of the spiritual world the soul
desires to re-enter its physical and etheric bodies, it must place itself within the stream of
the moon forces. It is of no concern here�that will be obvious to you�whether it be a
new or full moon. For even when, as new moon, the moon is not visible to the senses,
those forces are nevertheless active throughout the cosmos that bring the soul back into
the etheric and physical bodies from the spiritual worlds." [Rudolf Steiner, PHILOSOPHY,
COSMOLOGY, AND RELIGION (Spring Valley, NY: Anthroposophic Press, 1984), p. 83.]
) [In Praise of Fair Whites] "If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the human race
will become increasingly dense.... Blond hair actually bestows intelligence. In the case of
fair people, less nourishment is driven into the eyes and hair; it remains instead in the
brain and endows it with intelligence. Brown- and dark-haired people drive the
substances into their eyes and hair that the fair people retain in their brains." [Rudolf
Steiner, HEALTH AND ILLNESS, Vol. 1. Lectures from 1922 (Spring Valley, NY:
Anthroposophic Press, 1981), pp. 85-86.]
(I've got a million of 'em. [Jimmy Durante])
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, "cathy223146" (cathybalme ...) wrote:
)
) --- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, "Roger Rawlings"
) (downfromfog ) wrote:
) )
) ) Hi. This is a test. I've tried to implement Dan's advice on how to
) avoid sending messages
) ) that need to be unwrapped. Let's see if I succeeded.
) )
) ) I recently revised my Top Ten list. Here's the new version:
) )
) ) 10) "[A]n island like Great Britain swims in the sea and is held
) fast by the forces of the
) ) stars." [1]
) )
) ) 9) "When the physical constitution of the human being was nearer to
) the divine, he sucked
) ) milk out of his surroundings." [2]
) )
) ) 8) "A major portion of the animals, particularly the higher
) animals, rose within earthly
) ) evolution only because human beings needed to use their elbows..."
) [3]
) )
) ) 7) "In the head or in the brain, the human body is constantly
) falling apart." [4]
) )
) ) 6) "The animal man of the Moon does not yet have firm bones." [5]
) )
) ) 5) "The group soul of a beehive is a very high level being...It has
) attained a level of
) ) evolutionary development that human beings will later reach...."
) [6]
) )
) ) 4) "Gnomes are...unable to grasp how there can be anything but an
) ineffectual
) ) relationship with [our] world." [7]
) )
) ) 3) [Speaking of human evolution] "The human being was at that time
) only jelly-like in
) ) external form." [8]
) )
) ) 2) "[Science] sees the heart as a pump that pumps blood through the
) body. Now there is
) ) nothing more absurd than believing this, for the heart has nothing
) to do with pumping the
) ) blood." [9]
)
) )
) ) --Roger
)
) Hi Roger,
) God, I love this stuff. I'm comparatively new to all of this. What
) about the blond hair and intelligence one?- not in the top ten?
) Cathy
)
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Waldorf Teachers . . . ?
Posted by: "awaldenpond shaw.ca" awaldenpond shaw.ca awaldenpond
Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:25 pm ((PST))
Hello Waldorf/Steiner teachers (Bruce et al),
Would any of you be interested in commenting on a few of the quotes recently forwarded by Roger? It might be a good way to start the new year with some constructive
discusssion. I find the following quotes quite disturbing and am wondering what others think of these quotes - beyond the "Steiner was a man of his times" angle. Are these quotes something teachers agree with or was Steiner misguided or simply wrong?
-Walden
1) ) [Punishment: RS addressing teachers at Waldorf] "We may never place ourselves in a
situation where we may have to relent in a disciplinary decision...With punishment, we
cannot relent." [Rudolf Steiner, FACULTY MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER (Hudson, NY:
Anthroposophic Press, 1998), p. 109.]
2) ) [Waldorf's Religious Agenda]: "Among the faculty...we should always remember that
when we do something, we are actually carrying out the intentions of the gods [sic:
plural]...." [FACULTY MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER, p. 55.]
3) ) [Punishment] "If you give them [i.e., students] a slap, you should do it the way Dr.
Schubert [one of the Waldorf teachers] does...There are physical slaps and astral slaps. It
doesn't matter which one you give, but you cannot slap a child sentimentally." [FACULTY
MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER, pp. 323.]
4) ) [Punishment] "[P]unishment is given for the sake of exerting soul forces so that
consciousness will extend into spheres it did not previously reach. This is also the task of
repentance." [Rudolf Steiner, NECESSITY AND FREEDOM, (SteinerBooks, 1988), p. 77.]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: AW: [wc] Epiphany/Three Kings and the evolution of races
Posted by: "Zooey" skottehund yahoo.com zooey_stockholm
Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:27 pm ((PST))
Maybe there are 3 "Ober�fer" plays, but around christmas time 2 plays were set-up at school. One was the paradise play.
The other I can't remember the name of. Of course, it was in swedish which complicates things further. I don't think it was shepherds' nor kings' play. That's why I called it the jesus play. Maybe it's a merge then, because I think definately there were three kings present. I guess it may have been cropped and merged to suit children?
-z
Bruce Jackson (bruceylists freenet.de) wrote: I�m not sure what the confusion is here: in an attempt to sort things out�
There are three �Ober�fer� Plays:
The Paradise Play which is based on Genesis, where Adam and Eve are created
and then cast out of Paradise.
The Shepherds Play, which is based on the Matthew Gospel, where Joseph and
Mary are forced to Bethlehem by the new tax-census, find a place to stay in
a stable where Jesus is born and then are visited by the three shepherds.
The Kings Play, which is based on the Luke Gospel, where Mary, Joseph and
Jesus are visited by the three Kings and King Herod kills all children under
three, attempting thereby to kill Jesus but not succeeding.
Hope that this is clear. I MAY have the Gospels wrong (I just moved and have
all my things packed away � I�ll post a correction if necessary, unless
someone else does)
Happy New Year!
Bruce
_____
Von: waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com
[mailto:waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von winters_diana
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. Januar 2008 03:39
An: waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com
Betreff: Re: [wc] Epiphany/Three Kings and the evolution of races
Yes there is no doubt that Three Kings stuff has some special
significance, but there are only coy replies from anthroposophists
who might give us some hint as to why - they leave us to find our own
hints - like the lecture explaining the racial symbolism in the story.
--- In waldorf-critics (mailto:waldorf-critics%40yahoogroups.com)
yahoogroups.com, Zooey (skottehund ...) wrote:
)
) Swedish winter school leave extends over the 6th of Jan. and I
can't remember how they went about celebrating this event (my parents
apparently weren't inspired to celebrate anthing at home anyway!). I
know we had a lot of "education" on Isis and Osiris - when and what
is really lost for me. I also remember the talking of the three
kings, but i don't know when. Probably around christmas. Every year
around christmas we had to watch the "Jesus"-play (sorry, I don't
remember the name, but I distincly remember it was announced every
year with a large blue sign made of cloth, picturing stars and some
version of the nativity scene, I believe). Jesus was born and then
there was a lot of stuff about the three kings who made the trip to
see him. The bible essentially, but with a lot of focus on the kings
visit. Older kids had to watch the Paradise-play too. This was about
Adam and Eve in the garden of eden. (Green cloth sign depicting the
tree with apples!)
)
) Not much variation, none really, the same outfits, scenery and
wordings every year.
)
) -z
)
) winters_diana (diana.winters ...)
wrote:
) I recommend the following lecture, available at the Rudolf Steiner
) archive, to current or prospective Waldorf parents interested in
the
) anthroposophical significance of the Epiphany or Three Kings
holiday,
) or the twelfth day of Christmas. At our school, anthroposophists
) insisted this holiday was more important than Christmas. This
Steiner
) lecture may indicate why.
)
) http://wn.rsarchive
(http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/Christmas/19041230p01.html)
.org/Lectures/Christmas/19041230p01.html
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
) ---------------------------------
) Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo!
for Good
)
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Messages in this topic (8)
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There is 1 message in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Waldorf Teachers . . . ?
From: Roger Rawlings
Message
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Waldorf Teachers . . . ?
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:50 am ((PST))
I peeked at the list, this morning (I'll try to visit the list for a day or two after I post stuff
here, so that I won't simply lob stunners at you and then disappear fro weeks on end). If
anyone wants more thorough documentation, please visit waldorf-problems.com and my
other sites.) So, I saw Walden's suggestion that a discussion might develop re. R.S.'s ideas
of discipline. (Hi, Walden.) To facilitate such a discussion, here is a somewhat more
complete list of relevant quotes. In a few instances, I have appended some commentary by
moi.
[Discipline] "We may never place ourselves in a situation where we may have to relent in a
disciplinary decision...With punishment, we cannot relent. It is better to let it go. Under
certain circumstances, it can lead to the opposite of what we want...[But] I don't think
[relenting] would work, because it would make us somewhat laughable." [FACULTY
MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER, p. 109] We cannot accuse Steiner of strict consistency in
his comments. Indeed, he often contradicted himself. Indeed, in this passage we see him
contradicting and then re-contradicting himself. To punish or not? Will it work or not?
Well, on the one hand...but then, on the other.... So, where did he come down?
Relentlessness: punishment: infliction of pain: "[W]hen there is some punishment [note:
when, not if]...you can be particularly effective if you allow [sic] them to stand in some
uncomfortable place...We could also buy a number of little sheds [to put students in for
punishment]...They may even get cramps in their legs. We could have the sheds built in
the shop class." [Ibid., p. 110] Steiner apparently did not think that having students build
detention cells for other students would make the Waldorf faculty and their guru seem
laughable. Maybe he was right.
[Tardiness: This statement is from the same passage I quote above: I've broken the
passage in two because Steiner�as he did so often�rambled: So I thought it helpful to
consider the general question of punishment ("disciplinary decision[s]") and then to zero in
on tardiness: You'll see how the quotes knit together by noting the portions that overlap]
"We lose all control the minute we look away...it would make us somewhat laughable. Of
course, it's [i.e., tardiness] just laziness...If a child comes late ten minutes, have him or
her stand for half an hour...Let them stand uncomfortably...you can be particularly
effective if you allow [sic] them to stand in an uncomfortable place...We could also buy a
number of little sheds...." [pp. 109-110.] So, the draconian measure of putting kids in
punishment sheds can be applied for the horrific crime of tardiness.
[Spanking] "Under certain circumstances it may be necessary [for a teacher] to spank a
child...I have to admit that there are rowdies...." [Ibid., p. 22.]
[Slapping] "If you give them [i.e., students] a slap, you should do it the way Dr. Schubert
[one of the Waldorf teachers] does...There are physical slaps and astral slaps. It doesn't
matter which one you give, but you cannot slap a child sentimentally." [Ibid., pp. 323.]
[Punishment] "The whole point of punishment is to awaken forces in the soul that will
enable consciousness to extend to the kind of situations that previously produced an
elimination of consciousness [recall that for Steiner, true consciousness�which is not
seated in the brain�is clairvoyance, or, among young children, the innate memories of life
in the spirit realm]...punishment is given for the sake of exerting soul forces so that
consciousness will extend into spheres it did not previously reach [you know what he
meant here: spirit realms or spheres]. This is also the task of repentance." [Rudolf Steiner,
NECESSITY AND FREEDOM, p. 77.] So hit a kid to bring him/her back to his/her senses. It's
good for them�no, really, it is.
[Authority] "[K]eep the children from losing their feeling for authority...You can best
achieve that by going into things with the children very cautiously, but under no
circumstances giving in...You must appear to give in to the children, but in reality don't do
that under any circumstance...You may never give in for even one minute." [pp. 14-15]
Steiner taught that children want to be mastered by authority figures. Waldorf teachers
should present themselves as virtually infallible masters. They may never give in "for even
one minute" (although they may intentionally mislead the students into thinking that they
(the teachers) are not utterly unrelenting). So here we see unbending claims to absolute
authority, pared with a willingness to deceive students ("You must appear to give in to the
children, but in reality don't") and parents: "The things I say here [i.e., to Waldorf
teachers], I could not say to parents." [p. 409]
[Teacher's Authority, Students' Stupidity] "The teacher must remain as calm as possible
[when students are disobedient or disrespectful] and adopt an objective attitude. This does
not mean lessening the teacher's own authority. The teacher could certainly be the one to
say, `Without your teachers you would learn nothing and remain stupid.'" [DISCUSSIONS
WITH TEACHERS, p. 67] Oh, really? Students can't learn anything on their own? They are
inherently stupid? We'll see more of Steiner's contempt for others, below.
[Dealing with Disobedience, Sowing Uncertainty] "If I taught a class I could venture to do
this. I would try to find the ringleader, whom I would compel [sic] to denounce, as much as
possible, such conduct...I would then bring the matter quickly to a close so that a sense of
uncertainty would be left in the minds of the children....[M]uch can be gained from this
element of uncertainty." [Ibid. p. 68] Steiner thrived on�and greatly contributed to�the
confusion of others. Sowing uncertainty among adults is one thing; doing it to children is
quite another.
[Teachers as Authority Figures] "[Students'] souls are open to consciously receiving what
works on them from teachers on the basis of a natural, unquestioned authority." [RUDOLF
STEINER IN THE WALDORF SCHOOL, p. 4] Unquestioned authority. Steiner promoted this
concept for Waldorf teachers: They are ultimate communicators of truth: Children should
sit down and attentively, unquestioningly listen. Waldorf schools, thus, are literally
authoritarian. Is this bad? "While the parents' souls have very strong effects on their child's
[sic] bodily constitution, it is only possible for teachers to work on the child's soul through
soul means." [Ibid., p. 197] Teachers, not parents, offer true guidance. Thus, Waldorf
teachers should supplant parents as the guides for children; teachers have greater
authority. Unlike parents who are stuck on the physical plane, Waldorf teachers work on
children's souls through "soul means," i.e., spiritual science, i.e., Anthroposophy.
[Morality] Steiner urged his teachers to "love" their students by shaping them to accept the
"moral" view provided by Anthroposophy: "[Regarding 7-year-old children] One sees, not
only the moral love that warmed them, in the form of harmonious ethical attitudes in their
environment, but also the consequences of disharmonious ethical attitudes..." [WALDORF
EDUCATION AND ANTHROPOSOPHY, p. 69] Who provides "the moral love" that "warms"
children? Those (predominantly Waldorf teachers) on whom students are "bestowed" by
the gods (Ibid., p. 4: "Teachers must be able to accept a child as a divine moral task
bestowed on them"). Who impedes the children's moral/spiritual progress? Among others,
parents who cannot employ "soul means," and certainly society in general: "Given the
difficult, disorderly, and chaotic conditions of our time, it might almost be preferable from
a moral viewpoint if children could be taken into one's care soon after birth." [p. 69.] Let
that sink in. The "moral" thing would "almost" be for Waldorf teachers to remove children
from parents' control "soon after birth," in order to mold them into the proper shape for
Anthroposophical "morality."
--R. Rawlings re. R. Steiner
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, awaldenpond ... wrote:
)
) Hello Waldorf/Steiner teachers (Bruce et al),
)
) Would any of you be interested in commenting on a few of the quotes recently
forwarded by Roger? It might be a good way to start the new year with some constructive
) discusssion. I find the following quotes quite disturbing and am wondering what others
think of these quotes - beyond the "Steiner was a man of his times" angle. Are these
quotes something teachers agree with or was Steiner misguided or simply wrong?
)
) -Walden
)
)
)
) 1) ) [Punishment: RS addressing teachers at Waldorf] "We may never place ourselves in
a
) situation where we may have to relent in a disciplinary decision...With punishment, we
) cannot relent." [Rudolf Steiner, FACULTY MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER (Hudson, NY:
) Anthroposophic Press, 1998), p. 109.]
)
) 2) ) [Waldorf's Religious Agenda]: "Among the faculty...we should always remember that
) when we do something, we are actually carrying out the intentions of the gods [sic:
) plural]...." [FACULTY MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER, p. 55.]
)
) 3) ) [Punishment] "If you give them [i.e., students] a slap, you should do it the way Dr.
) Schubert [one of the Waldorf teachers] does...There are physical slaps and astral slaps. It
) doesn't matter which one you give, but you cannot slap a child sentimentally." [FACULTY
) MEETINGS WITH RUDOLF STEINER, pp. 323.]
)
) 4) ) [Punishment] "[P]unishment is given for the sake of exerting soul forces so that
) consciousness will extend into spheres it did not previously reach. This is also the task
of
) repentance." [Rudolf Steiner, NECESSITY AND FREEDOM, (SteinerBooks, 1988), p. 77.]
)
)
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
Messages in this topic (9)
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There are 4 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: suppressing critical comments
From: cathy223146
1b. Re: suppressing critical comments
From: winters_diana
1c. Re: suppressing critical comments
From: Dan Dugan
2. You've received a private message from a friend!
From: girlpmblog
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: suppressing critical comments
Posted by: "cathy223146" cathybalme btinternet.com cathy223146
Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:20 am ((PST))
I was thinking again about Eugene Schwartz and his comments about
blocking youtube. "The internet version of People" he says- ie- it's
not eruidite for such a big subject. On the contrary- I think the
more discussion by the man on the street- the more open they will be
forced to become. The youtube comments have had many replies and
discussion is going on in an interesting way. Youtube actually makes
comments and views so quickly available to a very wide audience- and
I disagree with him that people don't take notice - because they do -
and are. In GB we have a site called mumsnet- which has opened
lively, critical and influencial debate about Steiner schools, and
carries alot of influence. If the press won't take notice- these
sites are the quickest and widest audiences available, and I think
it's important to use them.
Cathy
)
) This is such an eloquent argumet Dan- you give him no choice but
to
) tie himself in a knot.
) Cathy
) ) Eugene Schwartz has verified that he has blocked critical
comments
) on
) ) his Waldorf-promoting videos on YouTube. Schwartz wrote:
) )
) ) )Thank you for your email, and for your very kind expression of
) ) )admiration. However . . . . It IS so. I have blocked several
users
) ) )who visited the two eurythmy trailers that I set up as well as
the
) ) )recent "Discover Waldorf Education" video.
) ) )
) ) )Do you really feel that YouTube.com is a venue for the serious
) ) )discussion of issues? Isn't it a lot closer to being the
Internet
) ) )version of "People" magazine than, let's say, "Harper's" or "The
) New
) ) )York Review of Books"? A three-to-five minute video is hardly
the
) ) )place to present anything profound about subjects as complex as
) ) )eurythmy or Waldorf education, nor is a little "Comment/Reply"
box
) ) )the best place to make a meaningful comment on the video itself,
) not
) ) )to speak of commenting on its underlying philosophy.
) )
) ) So what if you don't think the medium is serious or profound? It
) must
) ) be important enough for you to spend effort on it. The comment
box
) is
) ) there to invite comments. You are the host; how should you treat
) your
) ) guests?
) )
) ) )The videos that I have uploaded are, in essence, advertising:
the
) ) )eurythmy videos invite people to purchase a much longer eurythmy
) DVD
) ) )while the "Discover Waldorf" video is advertising Waldorf
) education.
) ) )Any advertiser will set up circumstances so that his
advertisement
) ) )is in the most effective place, and he will control
circumstances
) to
) ) )the best of his ability to maintain a positive setting for his
) ) )advertisement. An animal-rights activist is unlikely to buy
) ) )advertising space in "Hunting World" magazine. In that respect
my
) ) )action had nothing to do with "cult-like behavior" and
everything
) to
) ) )do with common sense. "Tenguineas" and "Aurumvore" are not the
) only
) ) )viewers I have blocked; wherever offensive language was used I
) felt
) ) )that I was justified in removing the comment and blocking the
) ) )writer. YouTube recognizes the right of its contributors to
) control
) ) )their setting by blocking users, and I, like thousands of other
) ) )YouTube contributors, have availed myself of that right.
) )
) ) OK, I understand. It's commercial. You're not concerned with the
) ) ethics of suppressing the comments that the site invites--it's
the
) ) bottom line. How very spiritual of you.
) )
) ) )I have visited a number of other Waldorf-related sites and I've
) ) )noticed that tenguineas, in particular, has been writing
comments
) at
) ) )quite a few of them. Regardless of the particular content of the
) ) )site, he writes basically the same set of warnings about the
) motives
) ) )of the Waldorf movement.
) )
) ) Now you make a illogical ad-hominem argument. You delete a
person's
) ) critical comments because he or she is critical. Um.
) )
) ) )He is certainly free to exercise his freedom of speech,
) )
) ) Except where you have control...
) )
) ) )and, since most Waldorf sites are not intensively supervised,
his
) ) )comments will generally not be deleted, nor will he be prevented
) ) )from visiting repeatedly.
) )
) ) So it's ok to delete invited comments because people can express
) ) themselves elsewhere.
) )
) ) )However, I predict that he will find that most YouTube visitors
) come
) ) )for the videos and NOT for the comments - I doubt whether most
of
) ) )those comments are ever looked at, no less read and pondered --
so
) ) )he may be disappointed at the tepid results that even his most
) ) )provocative comments obtain. With that in mind, I feel no guilt
) ) )about showing him (her?) the door.
) )
) ) It's ok to censor invited speech because most people won't
notice?
) ) Another interesting kind of ethics.
) )
) ) )One clarification: Tenguineas implied that I was concealing the
) ) )close connection of anthroposophy and Waldorf education. In the
) ) )videos that I upload to YouTube, "anthroposophy" is always a
) ) )keyword, as is "rudolf steiner."
) )
) ) The keywords will direct a person who's looking for Anthroposophy
) or
) ) Steiner to the video. They are no help at all giving a YouTube
) viewer
) ) an understanding that the videos are an expression of
) Anthroposophy.
) ) Anthroposophy isn't mentioned in your videos.
) )
) ) Is it ok to be deceptive because you have a noble purpose?
) )
) ) )In the written synopsis of the video and/or in the credits of
the
) ) )video itself, viewers are urged to visit MillennialChild.com, a
) web
) ) )site that, as you know, is explicit about the intimate
connection
) of
) ) )Waldorf education to Rudolf Steiner and anthroposophy. As I
said,
) a
) ) )little video could never do justice to either Steiner or his
) ) )worldview, but I hope that viewers become interested in looking
) more
) ) )deeply - and that such a quest leads them to YOUR web sites as
) well
) ) )as to ours.
) )
) ) So it's ok to be deceptive if viewers can find out the truth by
) doing
) ) research? That's a novel new standard.
) )
) ) I talked with some YouTube aficionados about the practice of
) editing
) ) comments. They told me that the comments are under the control of
) the
) ) video poster, and some videomakers do edit them. The sure way to
) post
) ) counter-arguments to a video, they told me, is to make a
) ) counter-video.
) )
) ) )I don't imagine that what I've said will completely satisfy you,
) but
) ) )I at least wanted you to know that I had read your email! It has
) ) )been eight years since our never-to-be-forgotten debate (it is
) STILL
) ) )a hot topic in some Waldorf circles). I remain grateful for the
) ) )wake-up call that you delivered to the Waldorf movement, and I
) think
) ) )that Waldorf schools are all the stronger for your deeds and
) words,
) ) )even if no one is as yet inclined to send you flowers and
) chocolates.
) )
) ) Or you either! To the best of my knowledge, the wake-up call that
) we
) ) delivered in 1999 hasn't had any effect on the Waldorf movement
at
) ) all.
) )
) ) )My best wishes to you for the new year, and, who knows, our
paths
) ) )may cross again.
) )
) ) I hope so, I look forward to seeing you again.
) )
) ) -Dan Dugan
) )
)
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: suppressing critical comments
Posted by: "winters_diana" diana.winters verizon.net winters_diana
Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:29 am ((PST))
Cathy:
)I was thinking again about Eugene Schwartz and his comments about
)blocking youtube. "The internet version of People" he says- ie- it's
)not eruidite for such a big subject.
I agree it's hypocritical. It's also elitist. Youtube is good enough
for him to post his videos on, isn't it? It's good enough for him to
troll for customers there, apparently, but the customers are presumed
to be mostly idiots whose views wouldn't count for anything, they can
stuff their critical questions or remarks.
Thanks Dan for pointing out to him that there is no point in Eugene
Schwartz pretending what he's doing is noble or spiritual - it's called
advertising, and why pass up an offer of free advertising that is still
controlled by the advertiser. They'd have to be crazy not to take
advantage of Youtube. The mistake critics mustn't make is thinking they
aren't going to fight back like hell if challenged.
Diana
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: suppressing critical comments
Posted by: "Dan Dugan" dan dandugan.com dandugan_1999
Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:58 am ((PST))
Cathy, you wrote,
)This is such an eloquent argumet Dan- you give him no choice but to
)tie himself in a knot.
Thanks for the support. I don't like to be sarcastic, but in this
case he was so asking for it--and he is an honest man.
-Dan Dugan
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2. You've received a private message from a friend!
Posted by: "girlpmblog" girlpmblog yahoo.com girlpmblog
Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:20 am ((PST))
I read your profile today, I thought I would drop you a line and hope to become your friend! Check my personal page here:
http://privatesdnsmsg.googlepages.com/girlrider.htm
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
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There is 1 message in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: suppressing critical comments
From: Roger Rawlings
Message
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: suppressing critical comments
Posted by: "Roger Rawlings" downfromfog yahoo.com downfromfog
Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:02 am ((PST))
--- In waldorf-critics yahoogroups.com, Dan Dugan (dan ...) wrote:
)
) Cathy, you wrote,
)
) )This is such an eloquent argumet Dan- you give him no choice but to
) )tie himself in a knot.
)
) Thanks for the support. I don't like to be sarcastic, but in this
) case he was so asking for it--and he is an honest man.
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
Three points before I hush for a while:
1) In re. Eugene Schwartz. On one memorable occasion, in Dan's presence (which probably
goaded him), Schwartz was candid about the religious agenda of Waldorf schools. This was
a slip that cost him dearly (he was removed as director of Waldorf teacher training at (if I
recall correctly) Sunbridge). He has not been quite so candid in his books. Of particular
interest, here, is his book WALDORF EDUCATION: Schools for the Twenty-First Century. A
search of this volume yielded no references to "religion," "Jesus," "Jesus Christ,"
"Christianity," "reincarnation," "karma'" or "higher worlds." At least some of these terms
should be present in the book, if it purports to be an accurate description of Waldorf
education. Note that Schwartz used some of these terms in his remarks in Dan's presence.
On the other hand, the book does have references to "etheric body," "Steiner," "astral
body," "clairvoyance," and "higher bodies," among other Anthroposophical terms. Here are
a few of the statements that appear in the book:
"Must teachers be clairvoyant in order to be certain that they are teaching in the proper
way? We may, indeed, need only the `clairvoyant' faculties that we are already using
without being aware that we possess them." Asking this question would be unthinkable to
rationalists and to almost all teachers in public schools. Clairvoyance! Is he kidding? No,
Schwartz affirms the reality of clairvoyance, although he muddies the picture somewhat by
using the word both with and without quotation marks. His point is that we all have
"clairvoyant" powers, but there are also higher forms of such powers (implicitly, as
exercised by Rudolf Steiner). Consider this statement: "Earlier in this book I spoke of the
'everyday clairvoyance' which allows us to perceive the activities of the 'higher bodies' of
the human being without our necessarily being endowed with the degree of spiritua