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From ??? ??? Mon Apr 01 12:25:23 1996
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Date: Mon, 01 Apr 1996 08:02:35 -0600
To: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: RSC reading list I
>This list substantiates my allegation that Waldorf "teacher training" is
>actually training for a religious missionary ministry rather than for
>teaching.
Waldorf teachers are expected to understand and base their teaching
techniques on anthroposophy. This is no secret, Dan. That they would have to
learn about anthroposophy to do that isn't a big revelation either. The jump
from there to your theory that they will inevitably go out and try to
"convert" their students to believing in anthroposophy instead of teaching
them is just as silly as asserting that secular humanists shouldn't teach in
public schools because they'll inevitably try to convert all the kids into
secular humanists.
>Note how some of the Anthroposophical content is disguised behind
>conventional course titles, e.g. Rudolf Steiner's biography as "History
>102."
Can you give an example where the course was promoted as "History 102"
_without_ mentioning on the same page the full course name?
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Mon Apr 01 12:25:52 1996
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From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: WCA Reading List I
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 1996 10:50:32 -0600
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>This list substantiates my allegation that Waldorf "teacher training" is
>actually training for a religious missionary ministry rather than for
>teaching.
Waldorf teachers are expected to understand and base their teaching
techniques on anthroposophy. This is no secret, Dan. That they would have to
learn about anthroposophy to do that isn't a big revelation either. The jump
from there to your theory that they will inevitably go out and try to
"convert" their students to believing in anthroposophy instead of teaching
them is just as silly as asserting that secular humanists shouldn't teach in
public schools because they'll inevitably try to convert all the kids into
secular humanists.
>Note how some of the Anthroposophical content is disguised behind
>conventional course titles, e.g. Rudolf Steiner's biography as "History
>102."
Can you give an example where the course was promoted as "History 102"
_without_ mentioning on the same page the full course name?
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Mon Apr 01 12:25:55 1996
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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 12:24:14 -0500
From: Lee Story USG
Message-Id: <9604011724.AA27482 tlaser.zk3.dec.com>
To: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
In-Reply-To: <199604010346.TAA27273 lists1.best.com>
Subject: Religious test, WCA charter, copying messages
Dan Dugan writes:
> For students who have not completed the Foundation Year program at Rudolf
> Steiner College or another comparable study center, _in addition to the
> procedures listed on the Teacher Training application form,_ the following
> are also required:
>
> 1. A statement from yourself concerning your relationship to Anthroposophy.
etcetera...
Dan, I agree with you that this list of requirements constitutes a
"religious test for employment." Now to be fair you have to close the
connection and show that this, or the foundation year studies, is
required for employment in the proposed Waldorf charter school that
you're fighting. That can, of course, be demonstrated de facto.
and Neil Faiman writes:
> I guess I was naive when I took Dan's welcome message to this mailing
> list at face value:
> > "waldorf-critics" is a mailing list for the discussion of Waldorf
> > education...
> I had thought that Dan Saykaly's redefinition of the WCA charter -- that
> this list is for "exposing" Waldorf Education, not debating it, and that
> defenders of Waldorf Education should be free to participate, as long as
> everyone else ignores them -- were just his personal opinion. But come
> to think of it, Dan D, who wrote the charter in the first place, has
> noticeably *not* come forward to disagree with Dan S's reinterpretation
> of it.
I've noticed this, too. C'mon, Dan. Tell us it isn't true. Or does
Daniel S., apparently a buddy of yours, get special treatment? If so,
you should rewrite that "welcome."
Also, I agree with Neil that you should get permission before copying
multicasted correspondence (anthropop-science list messages) to
another list, unless you are in possession of a blanket permission
from the author. Interestingly, Lefty did the same thing when he
quoted an old (outraged and a bit outrageous) messages of mine from
WALDORF. But politesse aside, people are welcome to resend, or even
to publish, any comments I've posted to Internet mailing lists. If
they come back and bite me, I probably deserved it. (There's my
blanket permission.) But that's not everyone's way of doing things,
and I think we should respect their right to semi-privacy...
--lee
From ??? ??? Mon Apr 01 22:52:41 1996
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From: Lee Story USG
Subject: Re: WCA evolution
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 14:13:02 -0500
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Hi Dick,
It should be quite evident by now that I'm more interested in
considering Waldorf education from an empiricist viewpoint, and
looking at that which is and is not rational and ecumenical in the
anthropop/Waldorf view. I care little whether the Dans' campaign to
keep the public schools pure shall succeed.
In that light, your "translation" of the anthropop lingo into common
terms is no more satisfying than the original. While Eugene
Schwartz's words may represent "liberalization" of Waldorf education
in some obscure sense, they represent the same a priori metaphysical
superstitions. Perhaps you can supply other quotations from his
several books which challenge Steiner, but for now we have these.
Let's look at what they actually say, with your changes:
Schwartz, ed. Oliver:
> "As the organizational forces in the child are released from their
> intensive and ceaseless work upon the formation of the physical
> body; as that body's growth (when compared, for example, to its
> growth in thw womb, or in the first three years of life) slows
> down, those organizational forces are "freed" to be utilized as our
> power of memory... In these first years of life these forces need
> serve the child's growth, pure and simple. It is certainly possible
> to divert these forces in order to teach a young child to memorize
> the alphabet or to memorize a simple reading vocabulary or to
> memorize times tables. Once diverted, however, these organizational
> forces no longer serve their primary mission, and the membering and
> organization of the child's body--the foundation for its health and
> vitality in later years--will be less perfect than if those forces
> had been allowed to go their own way.
Metaphysical "organizational forces" are posited in an unconvincing
way. The claim is implied that these "forces" (whatever that
means---presumably -not- Newton's now-somewhat-discredited
abstraction, though I suspect the word was chosen to have a
"scientific" ring) are in limited supply. No evidence of this is
given. The slight perjorative "divert" is used. Intellectual
discovery at an early age is slyly characterized (three times!) as
memorization. Then we find the the authors sufficiently emboldened to
claim to know the "primary mission" of these undemonstrated and
probably nonexistent forces. Following this is the pseudo-medical
claim that "the child's body...will be less perfect" if we dare to
interest the child too early in anything that Steiner doesn't want us
to.
> Whether or not you agree with what he's saying, I don't see why this
> wouldn't be a perfectly acceptable thing for a public school teacher to say,
> or why it implies in any way that the person who said it is incapable of
> making significant changes to a school based on his own insights and thoughts.
Well, it's pretty good evidence to me that Eugene buys the party line on
child development, and is willing to accept a load of anthroposophic
mumbo-jumbo as support for it. No real evidence is given, and I'm willing
to bet that none ever will be, since the intended import of this passage seems
to me to be rhetorical justification of anti-intellectualism and of Steiner's
extremely dubious child-development theory!
> And why you have a problem with seeing the truth in fairy tales still eludes
> me.
My guess would be that most people might grant you that there are human truths
to be found in fairy tales (as there may also be in the stories of Joyce or
Cheever or Saroyan), but that Ms. Almon gives them a characteristically
obnoxious anti-intellectual slant when she says:
"They arise out of the deeper essence of the human being. The
inspiration for them came not through intellectual people, but
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
through very simple people who heard the stories and repeated
them."
Once again, this is Steiner party line. Once again, I think it's largely
or completely biased wishful thinking...briefly: horse manure.
I don't want either of these people using this prejudicial approach on
my kids. --lee
From ??? ??? Mon Apr 01 22:52:51 1996
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From: "Gillespie_Kathi" (by way of
dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan))
Subject: RE: WCA A few suggestions...
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 12:26:36 -0700
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I think those are excellent ideas. I'm interested in more focus and realize
that those who already hold an opinion problably won't be convinced otherwise.
Kathi Gillespie
_______________________________________________________________________________
From: waldorf-critics blob.best.net on Sat, Mar 23, 1996 6:08 PM
Subject: WCA A few suggestions...
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Hello Dan, Lee, WCAers and WEEs (Waldorf Ed. Enthusiasts),
I've been running silent for some time, but reading with interest on both
this and the WE. Let me first compliment Dan for this truly open forum.
Some suggestions you all might like to think about.
1)What WCA needs is a page on the Net designed to snag people running queries
on
Steiner, Education, Waldorf, Oligarchy, Occult, Reincarnation,
Karma, Antidemocratic groups, Race theories. Dan, Any idea
of the
setup costs or procedure? WCA should not be just a debating
society, but a public information service and research centre.
2)Members of WCA (vs WEES on board) should exchange ideas here on ways to
notify all educational authorities of the way Waldorf slides around
the principle of church/state separation and of WE's camouflage of
its beliefs and goals.
3)Members might begin to submit texts for a reference work on Waldorf (head
your
text "Reference Work Submission on _________ (your topic).
All rights donated to the WCA; all proceeds to be used
to further the work of the WCA."
4)Restate weekly or monthly the fact that all texts submitted to this list
may be reprinted in upcoming WCA publications, both on-line
and on-paper.
WEEs should know their items will be used as WCA sees fit if
posted here.. freedom of access, freedom of reuse. Anyone
unhappy with this can still monitor and keep silent.
5)Get on with the work and ignore the red herrings. While it's true that the
conflict of scolars brings progress (as a great Rabbi once
supposedly said), it is also true that most of what passes for
discussion with WEEs on this list is futile skirmishing.
Val has written on WE about fighting back for the WE in
this "Stinking Swamp". Is that who we want to talk to or waste
time fighting with on this list? By letting them join the
list,
we preserve liberty; by ignoring the hectoring, we permit
progress.
Why not post a statement that WCA is devoted to the
criticism of WE and that while WEEs are welcome on board,
limited notice will be taken of anyone defending Steiner
positions. Less sidetracking this way, but no censorship.
Any thoughts from you WCAers? (In keeping with the spirit of the above, I
will try to ignore feedback from WEEs. No hard feelings, I hope.)
ds
Daniel Saykaly
==========================================
INTERNET: dsaykaly interlink.net
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To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dsaykaly interlink.net (Daniel Saykaly)
Subject: WCA A few suggestions...
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From ??? ??? Mon Apr 01 22:52:47 1996
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: classifying children as abnormal
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 12:26:46 -0700
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Ines Pach, you said,
>To classify people at all and in general also includes that people who do
>that have or believe in a model about the way a person should be or what
>makes a good human being. That also implies that a _child_ who does not fit
>into that model, who maybe has "abnormal" (according to waldorf) characters,
>has to be _healed_. This normally happens with (gosh, what is the english
>term for that???) "healing-eurythmy" which gives the child the feeling that
>something is wrong with it. I strongly believe that this causes more damage
>to a child than sending it to a so called "normal" school. Why is it so bad
>in the first place if a child is not that silent and does not all the time
>what older people want. Why is it so bad if a child asks many questions
>instead of believing everything a (waldorf-) teacher is telling? Here we
>come to a very strict model of authoority and recognising authorities.
>I find it hostile to towards human beings to judge people after a certain
>model. Anyway, I guess you get my point now.
I was reminded of this mention of a child who "does not fit" when I came
across this statement of Steiner's:
"You will always discover something that is pathologically wrong with
children who do not wish to do Eurythmy." (Steiner, 1924, KC p. 123)
Ines, I bet you were a candidate for a lot of "healing eurythmy."
-Dan Dugan
From ??? ??? Tue Apr 02 11:49:56 1996
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From: atllaw mindspring.com (Stephen Wright) (by way of dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan))
Subject: Re: classifying children as abnormal
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 10:54:00 -0700
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>Ines Pach, you said,
>
>>To classify people at all and in general also includes that people who do
>>that have or believe in a model about the way a person should be or what
>>makes a good human being. That also implies that a _child_ who does not fit
>>into that model, who maybe has "abnormal" (according to waldorf) characters,
>>has to be _healed_. This normally happens with (gosh, what is the english
>>term for that???) "healing-eurythmy" which gives the child the feeling that
>>something is wrong with it. I strongly believe that this causes more damage
>>to a child than sending it to a so called "normal" school. Why is it so bad
>>in the first place if a child is not that silent and does not all the time
>>what older people want. Why is it so bad if a child asks many questions
>>instead of believing everything a (waldorf-) teacher is telling? Here we
>>come to a very strict model of authoority and recognising authorities.
>>I find it hostile to towards human beings to judge people after a certain
>>model. Anyway, I guess you get my point now.
In many states, sending "it" to a so-called "normal" school entails
administering the drug ritalin to the "hyperactive" or "AHDD" child who is
always asking questions. It is a trend, including many "normal" or public
schools in my state that teachers are compensated based on achievement tests
given the children. The teacher's pay, however, is not impacted by those
children who are classified as "learning disabled." Thus in my state we see
an extremely high level of "learning disabled" children given ritalin
contributing to a very high consumption level in the state (Georgia). This
is reflected in some statistics pointed out in Newsweek's recent cover story
on ritalin showing Georgia as having the highest per-capita ritalin
consumption level in the U.S.
I'd rather have my child grow up on eurythmy than pharmaceuticals any day
and still have the child labeled "learning disabled" all because the
teachers are more concerned about making a buck. Talk about giving a child
damage! And anyway, since when are so-called "achievement tests" the
end-all by which we value our children?
Stephen L. Wright & Assoc., LLC
Attorneys at Law
atllaw mindspring.com
From ??? ??? Tue Apr 02 19:32:26 1996
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From: ralph.s.hogan bangate1.tek.com
Subject: WCA Where's Waldo?
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 96 14:58:48 PST
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Is anybody there?
From ??? ??? Wed Apr 03 23:04:28 1996
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From: dsaykaly interlink.net (Daniel Saykaly)
Subject: New WCA address at "best"
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 22:33:48 -0500
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Thought I would test the new address to see if it works.
... and add a suggestion at the same time:
Let us ban trite symbols like :) :( (grin) etc.
Somehow, literate people have managed to communicate in writing without this
drivel until now and still convey their meaning.
In most cases these baubles serve as nothing more than a way to deflect
confrontation when going too far (eg: 'It's true I called you people heathen
atheists, but it was just in fun (grin)').
Let us avoid the cartoon gestures. When we want to be insulting, let us
damned well be rude without recourse to these wimpy sophomoric semaphores.
ds
Daniel Saykaly
==========================================
INTERNET: dsaykaly interlink.net
==========================================
From ??? ??? Thu Apr 04 09:38:39 1996
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: New WCA address at "best"
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 01:07:26 -0700
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Daniel Saykaly, you said,
>Thought I would test the new address to see if it works.
looks like it does.
>... and add a suggestion at the same time:
>
>Let us ban trite symbols like :) :( (grin) etc.
>
>Somehow, literate people have managed to communicate in writing without this
>drivel until now and still convey their meaning.
>
>In most cases these baubles serve as nothing more than a way to deflect
>confrontation when going too far (eg: 'It's true I called you people heathen
>atheists, but it was just in fun (grin)').
>
>Let us avoid the cartoon gestures. When we want to be insulting, let us
>damned well be rude without recourse to these wimpy sophomoric semaphores.
lighten up, Daniel! ;)
-Dan Dugan
From ??? ??? Thu Apr 04 09:39:08 1996
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From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: New WCA address at "best"
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 1996 07:43:40 -0600
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>In most cases these baubles serve as nothing more than a way to deflect
>confrontation when going too far (eg: 'It's true I called you people heathen
>atheists, but it was just in fun (grin)').
I stand corrected--certainly nobody who proposes a ban on emoticons deserves
the title "heathen athiest." My characterization of "stick-up-the-butt
anthropops" does come to mind, though...
p.s.
"Immannuel Kant was a true pissant
who was very rarely stable
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
who could think you under the table
David Hume could out-consume
Wilhelm Freiderich Hegel
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
Who was just as sloshed as shlegel" --Monty Python
A shame they didn't get Steiner in there...
(oops. sorry--couldn't resist)
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Fri Apr 05 01:03:25 1996
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From: desai seqaxp.bio.caltech.edu
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 17:32:07 -1812
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Is this the spirit of the alternatives to Waldorf education?
"let us damned well be rude without recourse to these wimpy sophomoric
semaphores"
Chand
Chand Desai
Division of Biology 216-76
California Institute of Technology
Pasadena CA 91125
(818) 395-8315 phone
(818) 449-0679 FAX
From ??? ??? Fri Apr 05 01:46:25 1996
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA evolution
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 01:02:16 -0700
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Dick Oliver, you said,
>If Eugene Schwartz had been addressing you, he probably would have realized
>that you wouldn't understand what he was talking about if he said "etheric
>body"...
I do understand what Schwartz means when he talks about the etheric body.
My point is that this concept is a doctrine of anthroposophy and therefore
not suitable in publicly funded education.
-Dan Dugan
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA questions for superintendent
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 01:02:08 -0700
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David Mollet wrote,
>Dan, why do you believe or what evidence do you have for saying that the
>charter movement is a disaster etc. etc. Every school in New Zealand is a
>charter school. The Maoris have found they are able to found their own
>schools. There is far more flexibility in the system than previously.
I believe the charter movement is a disaster because it splinters society.
Every cocakamamie fundamentalist or ethnic group will be bringing up
children isolated in their particular culture. To me this is bad news, and
I have personal experience of something like that. Two of my kids went to a
Christian academy, and the 19-year-old still believes the earth is 6000
years old.
>I have
>seen nothing worse than what happens to children in public schools in
>California - it was the main reason we left California and went to New
>Zealand viz. so our children could go to public school and not have to
>undergo the horrendous experiences that would have occurred if they had gone
>to public school in California.
I don't believe you have made any survey of schools in California. I don't
deny you may have seen bad schools, but there may be some bad examples in
NZ too. The Waldorf fundamentalism needs a scapegoat to react against, and
that's public schools. I dare you to walk into a group of dedicated
California public school teachers and talk about "horrendous experiences."
>Meanwhile if you want an objective view on
>charter schools in California read the Little Hoover Commission report on
>them. Sincerely, David Mollet
Where can this report be obtained?
-Dan Dugan
From ??? ??? Sat Apr 06 00:37:21 1996
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From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Guru Tricks
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 06:41:05 -0500
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Dan Dugan --
In response to my observation "I recall the the theme of 'test these ideas
through your own experience' as common in Steiner's writings" you replied on
15 March with the following:
"Steiner's 'test these ideas' formula is common, but I think it's a guru
trick. His instructions for 'testing' ideas are actually instructions for
accepting ideas uncritically."
I agree with your first sentence, in a sense that I trust will become clear
here. In fact, I think "guru trick" points to a fundamental dilemma for the
seeker of truth--how to acquire knowledge that is experiential, rather than
simply intellectual, without becoming absorbed in the experience to the point
of losing critical capacity.
I was reminded of my readings about shamanism, which includes the use of
tricks to induce belief and through belief to make physical changes. An
example would be the "psychic surgery" in which the healer pretends to reach
into the body of the patient to remove a tumor, which in fact is a chicken
heart produced through sleight of hand. The critic may dismiss this as
quackery, but within the context of shamanisn it is a legitimate strategy,
aimed at tricking the patient into psychosomatic healing. For those of us
too skeptical to be fooled by such a trick, our likely alternative is
anesthesia and the knife. (For proponents of shamanism who may be looking
on, I hasten to add my recognition that there are dimensions to it far beyond
this level of trickery.)
"What you believe to be true either is true or will become true . . ." This
is the start of the lengthy aphorism of John Lilly, based on his research
with dophin intelligence, LSD, the isolation tank, etc. In my experience I
have found it to be, well, true. That is, beliefs tend to filter experience
and conversely beliefs tend to shape experience, often very strongly.
Also, your guru reference reminded me of the distinction that Steiner made
between the role of the guru in each of three paths to enlightenment (Lecture
Twelve in the collection "At the Gates of Spiritual Science"). In the
Eastern way, or Yoga, says Steiner, the process works best if the pupil
"eliminates his own self entirely and hands it over to his Guru, who must
even advise him on every action he may take."
In the Christian way (which refers to gnostic Christianity, meaning active
pursuit of spiritual enlightenment, not just going to church), "Christ Jesus
Himself" takes the place of individual gurus. Says Steiner, "The feeling of
belonging to Christ Jesus, of being one with Him, can take the place of
surrender to an individual Guru." The born-again experience of many
Christians seems to fit here.
In the third path, that Steiner in this lecture calls the Rosicrucian way,
"the Guru is only the friend and adviser of the pupil, for by training his
reason the pupil will be training the best Guru for himself. But he will of
course still need a Guru to advise him on how to make progress in freedom."
If I understand the dogma of secular humanism correctly, you would not take
issue with the idea of one's own reason being the best guru for oneself. But
I would also expect you to focus on the second sentence in this quote, taking
"Guru to advise him on how to make progress in freedom" as a trick--a
cover-up for what after all is the first Guru role in disquise, someone to
whom you surrender yourself.
As you undoubtedly know, Steiner proposed a solution to the dilemma of
acquiring experiential knowledge without losing one's independent reasoning
capability--the meditation practices commonly known as the subsidiary
exercises. None of these exercises require a priori commitment to the
anthroposophical belief system, nor any other belief system. They are
virtually devoid of belief content and thus should be free from any hidden
guru trickiness, other than the "tricks" that may be lurking in the reason of
the practitioner.
I haven't practiced these exercises with any diligence. (Have you?) Until I
do, I don't believe I have a legitimate basis to deny the possibility of
Steiner being correct about what they will lead to--the opening up of new
"organs of perception" without losing one's own ego consciousness.
In the meantime, I prefer to take Steiner at his word relative to the type of
guru he was trying to be. It opens up richer possibilties for me, by
permitting me to explore his wide-ranging teachings, perhaps taken initially
as myths, metaphors, hypotheses, etc. I am willing to take the risk of guru
trickery.
But the point of your campaign against Waldorf education, as I understand
you, is that it foists its guru trickery on the students, turning them into
incipient anthroposophists. I expect you would respect my decision as a more
or less competent adult to take the risk of succumbing to the teachings of
Steiner. The imposition of those teachings on innocent children, as you see
happening within Waldorf education, is quite a different matter.
I will take up that theme in my next posting. Or at least make a start at
it.
Best regards,
Rigby Leighton
From ??? ??? Sat Apr 06 00:39:06 1996
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From: "Gillespie_Kathi"
Subject: RE: WCA questions for superintendent
Date: 5 Apr 1996 20:35:31 -0800
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How can we get a copy of the report you mentioned?
_______________________________________________________________________________
From: waldorf-critics lists1.best.com on Fri, Apr 5, 1996 12:07 AM
Subject: Re: WCA questions for superintendent
To: waldorf-critics lists1.best.com
David Mollet wrote,
>Dan, why do you believe or what evidence do you have for saying that the
>charter movement is a disaster etc. etc. Every school in New Zealand is a
>charter school. The Maoris have found they are able to found their own
>schools. There is far more flexibility in the system than previously.
I believe the charter movement is a disaster because it splinters society.
Every cocakamamie fundamentalist or ethnic group will be bringing up
children isolated in their particular culture. To me this is bad news, and
I have personal experience of something like that. Two of my kids went to a
Christian academy, and the 19-year-old still believes the earth is 6000
years old.
>I have
>seen nothing worse than what happens to children in public schools in
>California - it was the main reason we left California and went to New
>Zealand viz. so our children could go to public school and not have to
>undergo the horrendous experiences that would have occurred if they had gone
>to public school in California.
I don't believe you have made any survey of schools in California. I don't
deny you may have seen bad schools, but there may be some bad examples in
NZ too. The Waldorf fundamentalism needs a scapegoat to react against, and
that's public schools. I dare you to walk into a group of dedicated
California public school teachers and talk about "horrendous experiences."
>Meanwhile if you want an objective view on
>charter schools in California read the Little Hoover Commission report on
>them. Sincerely, David Mollet
Where can this report be obtained?
-Dan Dugan
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA questions for superintendent
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 01:02:08 -0700
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From: WaldorfEdu aol.com
Subject: Re: WCA questions for superintendent
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:09:02 -0500
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"I believe the charter movement is a disaster because it splinters society.
Every cocakamamie fundamentalist or ethnic group will be bringing up
children isolated in their particular culture. To me this is bad news, and
I have personal experience of something like that. Two of my kids went to a
Christian academy, and the 19-year-old still believes the earth is 6000
years old."
I would disagree. Personally I believe that educational structures generally
could do with greater flexibility and the charter movement is one way to
bring this about.I've also seen innovation etc. occur that under the old or
present system would not have occurred but read the Little Hoover Commission
report.
I don't usually use words like horrendous! but some time back I was in
contact with some public school teachers and they were very unhappy with what
they were mandated to do (As an aside I don't blame the teachers but I do
think the system could be improved - so apparently does 45% of parents in
California who send their children to public schools). One of the teachers
used the word horrendous - she was leaving teaching - she could not any more
give a whole series of tests to 5/6 year olds etc. etc.
It isn't a case of good or bad schools - it is the system under which
teachers have to work and compared with other countries viz. New Zealand the
system here (California) is very rigid and IMHO many of the things that
happen are harmful to children. Sincerely, David Mollet
From ??? ??? Sun Apr 07 01:41:49 1996
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From: WaldorfEdu aol.com
Subject: Re: RE: WCA questions for superintendent
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:08:45 -0500
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I read the Little Hoover Commission Report at the Capitol's library here in
Sacramento. It has recommended that the cap (at present 100 schools) be
lifted and by what I read this will happen quite soon. Generally the
Commission praised what is happening in charter schools although it did also
suggest some ways in which the admin of such schools could be improved. David
Patterson is admin person in the State Department (dpatter aol.com) and
would, I assume, be able to tell you where to purchase copies etc. Hope this
helps. Sincerely, David Mollet
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA questions for superintendent
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 02:41:56 -0600
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David Mollet quoted me, (Dan),
>"I believe the charter movement is a disaster because it splinters society.
>Every cocakamamie fundamentalist or ethnic group will be bringing up
>children isolated in their particular culture. To me this is bad news, and
>I have personal experience of something like that. Two of my kids went to a
>Christian academy, and the 19-year-old still believes the earth is 6000
>years old."
and commented,
>I would disagree. Personally I believe that educational structures generally
>could do with greater flexibility and the charter movement is one way to
>bring this about.I've also seen innovation etc. occur that under the old or
>present system would not have occurred but read the Little Hoover Commission
>report.
The need for greater flexibility has been recognized, vide the magnet
schools that districts are founding everywhere.
>I don't usually use words like horrendous! but some time back I was in
>contact with some public school teachers and they were very unhappy with what
>they were mandated to do (As an aside I don't blame the teachers but I do
>think the system could be improved - so apparently does 45% of parents in
>California who send their children to public schools). One of the teachers
>used the word horrendous - she was leaving teaching - she could not any more
>give a whole series of tests to 5/6 year olds etc. etc.
I can imagine that a particular test might have been horrendous, but if the
teacher meant the whole idea of giving standardized tests to children I
disagree. Why would that be bad?
>It isn't a case of good or bad schools - it is the system under which
>teachers have to work and compared with other countries viz. New Zealand the
>system here (California) is very rigid and IMHO many of the things that
>happen are harmful to children. Sincerely, David Mollet
I'll agree with that if you'll agree that Waldorf schools are very rigid
and many of the things that happen there are harmful to children.
Are there any California public school teachers here to comment?
-Dan Dugan
From ??? ??? Mon Apr 08 00:02:34 1996
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From: WaldorfEdu aol.com
Subject: Re: WCA questions for superintendent
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:21:58 -0400
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Standardized tests are, IMHO, weak in assessing a child's performance or
development. viz they prove is whether the child is successful or not in
passing the particular test, I don't believe they achieve much more than
this. My wife and I are working on non-intrusive forms of testing and have
drawn up the following (initially it will be used for monitoring/assessing a
student's reading and language development). I believe it is relevant to this
discussion so I include some of it. Sincerely, David Mollet
A Non-Intrusive Form of Authentic Assessment
Raison d'etre for work
In the context of monitoring and assessment the support providers believe the
following:
a) A student's journey is unique both in breadth, depth and pace. To some
extent therefore, and in certain circumstances, we are not concerned with
comparing one student's progress in relation to another. We are more
concerned with a student's personal development as an individual according to
their ability and aptitude.
b) It would be difficult, in many cases, to measure the kind of rich
experience of education found in a classroom using normal standardised tests.
Such tests might well be limited as they only measure particular aspects of a
student's development which usually relate to the intellect. We believe that
the development of "the whole child" cannot be measured in this way. In many
cases when standardised tests are used, a great deal of the content of the
teaching tends to be influenced by the content of the test. This has a
restricting effect on the activities of the classroom.
c) Standardised test on many occasions have limited value in prescriptive
terms. What is the value in knowing that a student has a low score in a
particular skill if we do not know why? We would prefer to use an approach
which would include ways in which we could improve the teaching in order that
the student's knowledge and ability improves. We can draw the conclusion that
diagnostic testing will indicate the ways to improve teaching in ways that
other testing would not.
d) The approach to measuring progress that we advocate would be better
described as monitoring with non-intrusive diagnostic tests. This authentic
assessment has, as its basis, a structured portfolio approach.
We are therefore working towards a different form of monitoring students'
progress. Too often testing has become so intrusive in the everyday work of
the school that, in many instances, the tests determine the curriculum and
what happens in the classroom. We see the curriculum as of paramount
importance and any measuring, testing or monitoring of progress should emerge
out of the curriculum. We would therefore prefer to see the methodology and
content of the curriculum strongly influence the form of the monitoring and
assessment.
Underlying basis for the work:
a) California Frameworks
The material from which the monitoring and assessment procedures will be
developed is based on the California Frameworks and is already used by nearly
500 schools throughout the USA but mainly in California.
b) District Guidelines and Benchmarks
District guidelines and benchmarks form a determinant for the ongoing work on
monitoring and assessment procedures. Some outline procedures have already
been shared with teachers in the Sacramento area with very positive results.
From ??? ??? Mon Apr 08 11:23:13 1996
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From: Lee Story USG
Subject: magnet schools, testing, Steiner as final word, hero-worship
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:21:24 -0400
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Dan Dugan writes:
> The need for greater flexibility has been recognized, vide the magnet
> schools that districts are founding everywhere.
Dan,
I would agree with you, especially in the case of magnet schools
and their ilk which are specifically targeted to emphasize certain
topics. Some, like the special high schools for the arts and science
(e.g., Bronx High School of Science, Boston Latin) have been around
much longer than the "magnet school" terminology. These, of course,
were a bit different, though, in being "examination schools" with
large hurdles to admission.
> I can imagine that a particular test might have been horrendous, but if the
> teacher meant the whole idea of giving standardized tests to children I
> disagree. Why would that be bad?
It seems entirely reasonable to me to give standardized tests to
_a statistical sampling_ (!!!!!) of the children in a particular system,
under anonymous conditions and with the intention of assessing the
relative efficacy for carefully prespecified purposes of a particular
methodology or curriculum.
It also seems reasonable to give tests to a particular child when that
child appears to be having trouble in a particular area of study, and
the teacher would like to have her opinion confirmed or denied by a
disinterested outside observer; this so that remediation can be
applied only where actually useful.
It does _not_ seem reasonable for entire classes to devote several
school days to batteries of tests which are not part of a tailored
experimental design, and which can be used later for multifarious and
perhaps misguided purposes of evaluation and placement. If the
teacher is unaware that a child is having trouble reading (or
reciting, or reckoning, or singing a tune), that teacher or
methodology is lax. And all the tests in the world won't help much.
Is there a positive danger here (beyond the potential waste of time)?
I think there are at least three rather different ones:
(1) The teachers are likely to over-rely on test results; thus the tests
may encourage the laxity I mention.
(2) The tests may encourage slotting of a student into specialized
programs, and the deprecation of other parts of his education, merely
because he happens to be somewhat advanced in a particular area at the
age of six (or twelve!). By the time his other faculties catch up
with (and often surpass) the recognized faculty, he's likely to have
been labelled (and encouraged to be) a "math whiz" or a "poet" or a
"jock".
(3) Most important!!: Massive testing (and corresponding slotting)
encourages the attitude that the individual exists for the society,
rather than society for each individual. I see us sometimes selecting
young children as mathematicians and dancers and hockey players, based
on their perceived abilities at that time, and not on their personal
interests and wishes. This implicitly assumes that mathematics and
dance and hockey are the "good," in and of themselves, and that the
individual merely serves them, or serves the society which values
them. My personal opinion is that this is terribly pernicious--and
even pernicious of the development of fine intellectuals and sportsmen!
The notion of an intellectual as someone who makes a contribution
to other individuals is replaced by that of the competitor who beats
out the others on an exam, or for an academic position. The notion of
"sportsman" seems to have been lost entirely in America, and replaced
by the adult "winner" who makes big money exhibiting his skill at a
children's games.
Steiner rails against the notion that man exists for society at the
end of one chapter of _Philosophy of Freedom_ (the section with the
bull's horns analogy that I quoted here earlier...it's also in
McDermott's anthology). I give him much credit for this.
Dan to David Mollett:
> I'll agree with that if you'll agree that Waldorf schools are very rigid
> and many of the things that happen there are harmful to children.
Sure, the tendency to use Steiner's intuitions as final conflict-
resolving authority on _all subjects_ (as you noted in a message
recently) must introduce pedagogical errors, and must work against the
objective of producing self-sufficient individuals. (Note the
Steiner-style "mussen"!)
In some parts of the Waldorf scheme I find myself at odds with
Steiner, and understand the anger that people like Dan must feel who
have challenged some parts while willing or even eager to accept
others, only to find that there is little mechanism for evaluating
ideas except measuring them against the written record of his
intuitions and opinions.
Steiner seems to have been quite excellent at explicating desirable
objectives of education. Also, he seems to have had great
understanding of, and feeling for, his German literary-aesthetic
heritage. But when he gets down to details of science (including
psychology), he seems no better than his idol, Goethe. We get fairly
good developmental rules of thumb, mistaken physiology, abominable
medicine, natural history that renounces teleological "purpose" (see
_PofF_) but cannot quite embrace natural selection (presumably because
this would be to renounce Theosophy completely), and a "philosophy of
science" that struggles unsuccessfully to get beyond mere physics to
something more humanly satisfying.
There's a lot of good, a lot of fascinating ideas, in Steiner's
thought. But taken as dogma, and especially when mixed with his
"anthroposophical" notion of clairvoyant transmissions, independent of
(!) physics, and verifiable only by specially trained magi, it has the
makings of a very rigid cult. I agree with Dan there. --lee
[A footnote: Are people aware that the "heart is not a pump" and
"heart is a regulator" claims can be traced back to one of the seminal
works on the philosophy of science, Descartes' _Discourse on Method_?
In part V of that work he quarrels with Harvey's results on
circulation, and uses the heart's action as one of two major examples
(an unfortunate one!) of the application of his "method" of scientific
investigation (which is otherwise quite admirable). There seems to be
a terribly strong element of intellectual hero-worship in Steiner: If
Goethe said it, if Descartes said it, ..., it can be accepted as true.
I think this is a terrible tendency in the founder of an educational
enterprise!]
From ??? ??? Tue Apr 09 02:36:46 1996
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From: slainson rmii.com (Suzanne Lainson)
Subject: Re: magnet schools, testing, Steiner as final word, hero-worship
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 14:13:25 -0600
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I'm going to venture back in to the discussion on the assumption that I can
express a few thoughts without triggering constant antagonism by certain
individuals.
I wanted to make some comments about testing because I feel I learned to
play the game and use the results to my daughter's advantage.
When we moved from a rural school to an urban one, my daughter's public
school options opened up. I had no idea initially how my daughter would
place in comparison with her new classmates, but I began to realize she
might be one of the brighter ones even though she did not have an
especially strong educational background at her old school.
Testing was given in sixth grade to determine which children might qualify
for a special talented and gifted program. I felt my daughter was qualified
and in fact needed the specially contained classroom to feel more secure in
junior high. Her test results were just below the cut-off, but she had
taken some cold medicine that day which may have affected her performance.
I pointed that out to the school and she was let into the program where she
did well.
Then in senior high, a new round of testing. There were three talented and
gifted sections, one for English, one for math, and one for science. I'm
not sure if she made the cut-off for science and math, but the school said
she had the best scores overall, and therefore was let into the three
classes again, where she did very well.
My point--I was an involved parent, knew how the system worked, and was
allowed to override it when I asked.
Of course, many public school parents don't know all of this and their
children are at a disadvantage.
What concerns me about a Waldorf approach is that I have gotten the feeling
that even if parents feel they know their children better than the
teachers, they don't ever have the chance to override the teacher.
I like to think that teachers are entrusted with children, but are not
necessarily the experts.
Suzanne
Suzanne Lainson SportsTrust Integrated Marketing
slainson rmii.com P.O. Box 2071 Sports and Event Marketing
303 473-9884 Boulder, CO 80306 Online Marketing
From ??? ??? Sat Apr 13 00:02:36 1996
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Church and State article
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:50:46 -0600
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The April issue of "Church and State", newsletter of Americans United for
Separation of Church and State, has on the cover and five pages an article
by Rob Boston, "Charter for Indoctrination?: Why A San Diego Teacher Gives
Tax-Funded Waldorf Charter Schools An 'F'"
Orignial research, quotations from Lilian Cooper (with photo), Kathi
Gillespie, David Schlesinger (that's Lefty), and Dan Dugan, all people on
this list, also Dave Alsop (sic), Eugenie Scott, Barry Lynn. A one-page bio
of Steiner with photo.
Good show all around, folks. -Dan
[AU puts the newsletter on their web page, but when I checked they only had
up to February available. http://www.netplexgroup.com/americansunited/
From ??? ??? Fri Apr 19 23:05:00 1996
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From: chango well.com (Sean McPhetridge)
Subject: Re: WCA questions for superintendent
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:21:32 -0800
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Dan, you asked for California public school teachers to comment. Here goes
somethin'.
I have taught 5th grade bilingual, high school Spanish and Sophomore Honors
English classes and Yearbook, not to mention being an ETS AP coordinator as
well as a MEChA advisor, all in the course of about four years at three
campuses in public ed Southern California before landing a long-term
substitute position as foreign language instructor at San Rafael's Marin
Waldorf School. I feel lucky and privileged to have had the experience in a
pedagogical experiment such as the Steiner/Waldorf paradigm, having heard a
lot about their methods while in grad school and from musician buddies who
loved the music instructional approach. Nonetheless, teaching there will be
brief for me as I finally seem to be getting somewhere with being hired by
the California Corrections Department to teach reading, writing and
arithmetic to the disenfranchised and incarcerated. So there's the
not-so-brief back-story.
I think when I used the words "pedagogical experiment" I struck a chord
sympathetic to many good educators' ears: we need new and improved models
of instruction to keep up with what our children (and our peers, for that
matter, in adult ed) are capable of accomplishing. Waldorf schooling
certainly does seem to provide some different ways of thinking and teaching
and learning and being, but with every good thing I've seen evidenced in
both what I witness first-hand and in what I read, I'd say there is also
the potential for dogmatists and other nitwits to ruin the show. Maybe not
at my site, maybe not at yours, but in every institution we run the risk of
good intentions getting mucked up by bad individuals, verdad?
As far as testing in public schools, I'll admit to some resentment at
certain exams my students were forced by the state to undergo: a good
example was the CLAS exams given 10th graders in '94 and '95. Once again,
possibly good intentions were translated into a rigid system's
mismanipulation of too many frustrated and resentful people. Part of me
wants to say, "Tough darts: suck it up and walk it off," while another part
of me wants to ask the higher-ups why many of my students were forced to
undergo three days of something that would cost taxpayers mucho dinero and
give precious little back to individuals (like parents, teachers, the
little guinea pigs themselves, our desrving taxpayers) in the way of
results for each student. Get my drift? Also, many of our (California
public high school) sites were delivered performance reports based on
random scoring of probably less than 3% of those who were tested. Example:
500 sophomore students take the test at Nimrod High and only 2 are scored,
but the whole school is evaluated on the basis of those random folks'
responses. Make sense?
I think there are a lot of people frustrated with public ed, and likewise
many are not satisfied with putting out the big $ for private systems such
as Montessori and Waldorf and Catholic/Jewish/Muslim/Zoroastrian/etc
schools to boot. What can we say? Institutions (organized philosophies and
religions and governments) suck the life out of individuals (and vice
versa, I may add), but that's what life in America seems to present as our
democratic choice and alternative.
Big topic, no? Certainly the charter movement speaks for some of the people
some of the time, and god(s) know(s) that we need to give the people what
they want and fool some of them most of the time and all that rot. Until
people like parents and students themselves get involved in the ownership
of their own education or government or personal enlightenment or whatever,
they get what they pay for. If one doesn't like the product, one buys the
tools to make one's own. Off your duffs if you wanna change the world,
otherwise you're just flappin' your lips at our expense. I'd like to see
transformation in education, and I hope to be transformative to individuals
as an educator, but I'm probably the anti-Christ to some whether or not I'm
state board or Rudolf Steiner College certified, correct? So let's remember
we eventually get what we invest in personally. Change is difficult and
comes to the individual through their hard work, not by asking for and
expecting it gratis. Meanwhile, I know may colleagues in all types of
settings who would love the opportunity to "own" their own particular
franchise of public ed, and what's wrong with it if it succeeds? If it
doesn't, it's been an experiment and will probably keep changing on the
path to success, as so many of our other systems have unfortuantely
forgotten how to do!
=A1Qu=E9 viva la causa de transformaci=F3n!
Sorry if I've wasted anyone's time by waffling on, but you asked for it.
By the by: any more info available on your secular humanist tea party
organization? Sorry I didn't make it across the bay to your St. Patty's
shindig.
>David Mollet quoted me, (Dan),
>
>>"I believe the charter movement is a disaster because it splinters society=
From ??? ??? Tue Apr 23 00:22:47 1996
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA questions for superintendent
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 01:25:37 -0600
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David Mollet, you said,
>Standardized tests are, IMHO, weak in assessing a child's performance or
>development. viz they prove is whether the child is successful or not in
>passing the particular test, I don't believe they achieve much more than
>this. My wife and I are working on non-intrusive forms of testing and have
>drawn up the following (initially it will be used for monitoring/assessing a
>student's reading and language development). I believe it is relevant to this
>discussion so I include some of it. Sincerely, David Mollet
First you say that the results of tests are only as good as the design of
the tests, which I agree with, but you imply that there are no good tests,
which I don't accept. Then you change tack without preparation to
characterizing standardized tests as "intrusive", complaint No. 2. You drop
the first question.
>
>A Non-Intrusive Form of Authentic Assessment
>
>Raison d'etre for work
>In the context of monitoring and assessment the support providers believe the
>following:
>
>a) A student's journey is unique both in breadth, depth and pace. To some
>extent therefore, and in certain circumstances, we are not concerned with
>comparing one student's progress in relation to another. We are more
>concerned with a student's personal development as an individual according to
>their ability and aptitude.
After reading the first sentence at a) carefully twice, I suspect that I'm
in a work of bafflegab. I am concerned with comparing one student's
progress in relation to another, and to local and national norms, too,
please.
>
>b) It would be difficult, in many cases, to measure the kind of rich
>experience of education found in a classroom using normal standardised tests.
>Such tests might well be limited as they only measure particular aspects of a
>student's development which usually relate to the intellect. We believe that
>the development of "the whole child" cannot be measured in this way. In many
>cases when standardised tests are used, a great deal of the content of the
>teaching tends to be influenced by the content of the test. This has a
>restricting effect on the activities of the classroom.
Of course test result don't reflect the whole child. But they can reflect
some important aspects that are worth knowing about, and that kind of
reductionism is helpful, not harmful. The feedback is necessary to keep the
educational process on track. Lack of critical feedback is why Waldorf
education is still stuck in the 1920's.
>c) Standardised test on many occasions have limited value in prescriptive
>terms. What is the value in knowing that a student has a low score in a
>particular skill if we do not know why? We would prefer to use an approach
>which would include ways in which we could improve the teaching in order that
>the student's knowledge and ability improves. We can draw the conclusion that
>diagnostic testing will indicate the ways to improve teaching in ways that
>other testing would not.
That's one result of standardized tests, to improve the teaching. When a
school scores low, you know where the problems are and the teaching can be
shaped up. Waldorf education lacks feedback of the performance of the
teachers, too, so poor teachers go on and on. They sometimes hang on even
when parents have pulled out half the class.
>d) The approach to measuring progress that we advocate would be better
>described as monitoring with non-intrusive diagnostic tests. This authentic
>assessment has, as its basis, a structured portfolio approach.
Bafflegab.
>We are therefore working towards a different form of monitoring students'
>progress. Too often testing has become so intrusive in the everyday work of
>the school that, in many instances, the tests determine the curriculum and
>what happens in the classroom. We see the curriculum as of paramount
>importance and any measuring, testing or monitoring of progress should emerge
>out of the curriculum. We would therefore prefer to see the methodology and
>content of the curriculum strongly influence the form of the monitoring and
>assessment.
A pretentious statement of the obvious.
>Underlying basis for the work:
>
>a) California Frameworks
>The material from which the monitoring and assessment procedures will be
>developed is based on the California Frameworks and is already used by nearly
>500 schools throughout the USA but mainly in California.
David Mollet, you are referring to your own materials here?
>b) District Guidelines and Benchmarks
>District guidelines and benchmarks form a determinant for the ongoing work on
>monitoring and assessment procedures. Some outline procedures have already
>been shared with teachers in the Sacramento area with very positive results.
Please explain what the program was and how it was evaluated.
From ??? ??? Tue Apr 23 00:22:53 1996
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Guru Tricks
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 01:25:23 -0600
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Rigby, you said to me, Dan Dugan --
>
>In response to my observation "I recall the the theme of 'test these ideas
>through your own experience' as common in Steiner's writings" you replied on
>15 March with the following:
>
>"Steiner's 'test these ideas' formula is common, but I think it's a guru
>trick. His instructions for 'testing' ideas are actually instructions for
>accepting ideas uncritically."
>
>I agree with your first sentence, in a sense that I trust will become clear
>here. In fact, I think "guru trick" points to a fundamental dilemma for the
>seeker of truth--how to acquire knowledge that is experiential, rather than
>simply intellectual, without becoming absorbed in the experience to the point
>of losing critical capacity.
>
>I was reminded of my readings about shamanism, which includes the use of
>tricks to induce belief and through belief to make physical changes. An
>example would be the "psychic surgery" in which the healer pretends to reach
>into the body of the patient to remove a tumor, which in fact is a chicken
>heart produced through sleight of hand. The critic may dismiss this as
>quackery, but within the context of shamanisn it is a legitimate strategy,
>aimed at tricking the patient into psychosomatic healing. For those of us
>too skeptical to be fooled by such a trick, our likely alternative is
>anesthesia and the knife. (For proponents of shamanism who may be looking
>on, I hasten to add my recognition that there are dimensions to it far beyond
>this level of trickery.)
>
Here we begin to differ, Rigby. What you call "psychosomatic healing" I
call "placebo effect," same thing. I think I recall a study that found
about a third of common medical complaints respond well to conditions of
belief. This is enough success to keep the shaman and the Anthroposophical
physician in business. This is -all- the shaman or homeopath can offer,
however, whereas a scientific physician is empowered with both tested
techniques and a powerful placebo effect, if the job is done right.
>"What you believe to be true either is true or will become true . . ." This
>is the start of the lengthy aphorism of John Lilly, based on his research
>with dophin intelligence, LSD, the isolation tank, etc. In my experience I
>have found it to be, well, true. That is, beliefs tend to filter experience
>and conversely beliefs tend to shape experience, often very strongly.
I agree that "beliefs tend to shape experience, often very strongly." I
don't think that leads to "What you believe to be true either is true or
will become true..." This is confusing experience with reality. So often
nature trips us up when we think we know what's going on. These experiences
reawake us to an essential duality: Popper's "world two," the contents of
our minds, is separate from "world one," the physical world. (I'm not
denying that mind is a state of our physical body, only saying that it
makes sense to consider it separately.) I like Lilly, but I'm not aware
that he's doing science.
>Also, your guru reference reminded me of the distinction that Steiner made
>between the role of the guru in each of three paths to enlightenment (Lecture
>Twelve in the collection "At the Gates of Spiritual Science"). In the
>Eastern way, or Yoga, says Steiner, the process works best if the pupil
>"eliminates his own self entirely and hands it over to his Guru, who must
>even advise him on every action he may take."
>
>In the Christian way (which refers to gnostic Christianity, meaning active
>pursuit of spiritual enlightenment, not just going to church), "Christ Jesus
>Himself" takes the place of individual gurus. Says Steiner, "The feeling of
>belonging to Christ Jesus, of being one with Him, can take the place of
>surrender to an individual Guru." The born-again experience of many
>Christians seems to fit here.
>
>In the third path, that Steiner in this lecture calls the Rosicrucian way,
>"the Guru is only the friend and adviser of the pupil, for by training his
>reason the pupil will be training the best Guru for himself. But he will of
>course still need a Guru to advise him on how to make progress in freedom."
Waaait a minute, here. How is the pupil "training his reason"? If he's
studying Steiner's fantasies, he's training himself to think
-irrationally-.
> If I understand the dogma of secular humanism correctly, you would not take
>issue with the idea of one's own reason being the best guru for oneself. But
>I would also expect you to focus on the second sentence in this quote, taking
>"Guru to advise him on how to make progress in freedom" as a trick--a
>cover-up for what after all is the first Guru role in disquise, someone to
>whom you surrender yourself.
It is a fact that human culture is much too complex, and what people need
to know and be able to do to be active citizens is too much, for people to
be able to "reason it out" for themselves. This is why we have (back to
topic) -schools-. I agree with Steiner that children need a base of
memorized knowledge. Almost everything I do is based on "received"
knowledge that I have trusted my parents, teachers, authors, and newspaper
editors to pass on to me. I can only be wary of the source of information,
not test everything myself. This is why the religious education of Waldorf
teachers disadvantages Waldorf students. They lack the broad knowledge that
is most desirable for a teacher.
>As you undoubtedly know, Steiner proposed a solution to the dilemma of
>acquiring experiential knowledge without losing one's independent reasoning
>capability--the meditation practices commonly known as the subsidiary
>exercises. None of these exercises require a priori commitment to the
>anthroposophical belief system, nor any other belief system. They are
>virtually devoid of belief content and thus should be free from any hidden
>guru trickiness, other than the "tricks" that may be lurking in the reason of
>the practitioner.
>
>I haven't practiced these exercises with any diligence. (Have you?) Until I
>do, I don't believe I have a legitimate basis to deny the possibility of
>Steiner being correct about what they will lead to--the opening up of new
>"organs of perception" without losing one's own ego consciousness.
I doubt it. Meditation can be helpful, simply a waste of time, or harmful.
>In the meantime, I prefer to take Steiner at his word relative to the type of
>guru he was trying to be. It opens up richer possibilties for me, by
>permitting me to explore his wide-ranging teachings, perhaps taken initially
>as myths, metaphors, hypotheses, etc. I am willing to take the risk of guru
>trickery.
Don't say I didn't warn you. He's a master of seduction.
>But the point of your campaign against Waldorf education, as I understand
>you, is that it foists its guru trickery on the students, turning them into
>incipient anthroposophists. I expect you would respect my decision as a more
>or less competent adult to take the risk of succumbing to the teachings of
>Steiner. The imposition of those teachings on innocent children, as you see
>happening within Waldorf education, is quite a different matter.
You understand me correctly. Of course most Waldorf students don't become
explicit Anthroposophists; as teenagers they will likely be making fun of
the Anthropops in their own teenage society. I suspect that while
intellectually rejecting the details they cannot have avoided internalizing
a lot of the world-view. The implicit indoctrination is unethical because
most Waldorf parents don't subscribe to the Anthroposophical world-view.
This would be very interesting to study.
>I will take up that theme in my next posting. Or at least make a start at
>it.
>
>Best regards,
>Rigby Leighton
OK. -Dan Dugan
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From: Lee Story USG
Subject: Re: WCA questions for superintendent
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 10:47:03 -0400
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David Mollet:
> >a) A student's journey is unique both in breadth, depth and pace.
[....]
Dan Dugan:
> After reading the first sentence at a) carefully twice, I suspect that I'm
> in a work of bafflegab. I am concerned with comparing one student's
> progress in relation to another, and to local and national norms, too,
> please.
Hmmm....Why, Dan? And How? And (the original subject) When? Unless
you believe that individuals exist to push the pumphandle of society,
why would you want to compare one student's "progress" (if that's even
measurable) to "...national norms"? I'm rather revolted by the
shallow economically-based goals of our technological society, and
pretty much agree with Mr. Mollet here.
David Mollet:
> >d) [....] non-intrusive diagnostic tests. This authentic
> >assessment has, as its basis, a structured portfolio approach.
Dan Dugan:
> Bafflegab.
Agreed!! Though not much worse than the marketing-disinformation
associated with most "educational products". Indirectly relating to
this....I've started looking at a couple of Mollet's lesson
plans-cum-books, and they don't look bad so far.
David Mollet:
> >We are therefore working towards a different form of monitoring students'
> >progress. Too often testing has become so intrusive in the everyday work of
> >the school that, in many instances, the tests determine the curriculum and
> >what happens in the classroom. We see the curriculum as of paramount
> >importance and any measuring, testing or monitoring of progress should emerge
> >out of the curriculum. We would therefore prefer to see the methodology and
> >content of the curriculum strongly influence the form of the monitoring and
> >assessment.
Dan Dugan:
> A pretentious statement of the obvious.
I think not. He appears to say that tests should not (at all!)
determine the curriculum, but rather should only measure the degree to
which the child or children are learning that which the curriculum
determines should be learned. This is much stronger than merely
saying that one should not "teach to the test", and would seem very
controversial. Should the use of tests to help mould the curriculum be
taboo? (Once again I rather agree with Mr. Mollet.)
Cheers, --lee
From ??? ??? Tue Apr 23 00:24:59 1996
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From: Lee Story USG
Subject: Re: Guru Tricks
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 11:08:29 -0400
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Dan Dugan writes:
> You understand me correctly. Of course most Waldorf students don't become
> explicit Anthroposophists; as teenagers they will likely be making fun of
> the Anthropops in their own teenage society. I suspect that while
> intellectually rejecting the details they cannot have avoided internalizing
> a lot of the world-view. The implicit indoctrination is unethical because
> most Waldorf parents don't subscribe to the Anthroposophical world-view.
Dan, this is a stickier issue than you seem willing to admit! There is
a widely-held American presumption that parents should have the final
word (well...probably filtered to some extent by the law) in the
"indoctrination" of their children. Perhaps your own apparent
internalization of this is a remnant of an authority-based parochial
school world-view. (Insert emoticon here to annoy Daniel S.) As a
parent, I share that presumption to some extent, but it still seems worth
questioning. There's a bit too much of the attitude that "he who pays
the piper calls the tune" here. Example: There are plenty of
Xtian-fundamentalist parents who would be horrified to find that they'd
been paying for their daughter's or son's studies with S.J.Gould in
paleontology at Harvard, but I'd have to consider the student very
fortunate. Perhaps the opposite case is relevant, too, where the child
of atheists becomes a good and useful churchman. The same sort of thing
would seem to apply, in a less spectacular way, to a grade-school
program. Taking money under false pretences may be venal (by the same
argument so is most advertising!), but teaching what the social powers
tell you to teach, rather than what you believe, would seem much worse.
In any case, I doubt there will ever be a clean and neat answer here!
Cheers, --lee
From ??? ??? Tue Apr 23 23:28:06 1996
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From: dsaykaly interlink.net (Daniel Saykaly)
Subject: Re: Guru Tricks
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 11:05:53 -0400
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Hello Lee. You wrote:
There is
>a widely-held American presumption that parents should have the final
>word (well...probably filtered to some extent by the law).
A very good summary of the proper balance. All authority to the parent and
you have the danger of terrible abuse. All power to the state (or even
greater power to the state than to the parent) and you are on the road to an
(even more)oppressive society.
>(Insert emoticon here to annoy Daniel S.)
Thanks, Lee. Very elegant. Very witty. and MUCH better than an emoticon
itself....
There's a bit too much of the attitude that "he who pays >the piper calls
the tune" here.
No. He who has parental responsibility and authority for a child until the
child comes of age calls the tune. The limiting reality is either state
oppression (forcing a particular education on a child contrary to parental
belief) or lack of choice in education, which is ultimately a function of
wealth (enough money and you can always hire a tutor, move to another school
district or stay home and teach your child exactly as you wish him/her to be
taught).
>Xtian-fundamentalist parents who would be horrified to find that they'd
>been paying for their daughter's or son's studies with S.J.Gould in
>paleontology at Harvard, but I'd have to consider the student very
>fortunate. Perhaps the opposite case is relevant, too, where the child
>of atheists becomes a good and useful churchman.
Either way, the issue is: did the school/teacher hide its/his/her true
orientation.... as the Steiner schools do.
The same sort of thing
>would seem to apply, in a less spectacular way, to a grade-school
>program.
No. It applies very bit as much or even more due to the vulnerability of
children at that age. Remember the Jesuit notion that if they had a child
til he was seven (or was it 'for seven years'?), they didn't care what
happened to him after that.
Taking money under false pretenses
(as Steiner schools do)
may be venal
(try criminal)
by the same >argument so is most advertising!,
Advertising is 70%-90% organized deception and misdirection. The same % as
Steiner advertising. Honest Steiner advertising would say "we will do
everything to make your child reject the material world in favour of
attaining the only true freedom: freedom from this world; freedom to
penetrate (when he/she grows up) higher worlds of angels, etc...."
teaching what the social powers
>tell you to teach, rather than what you believe, would seem much worse.
No. Lying is lying is lying. Whether you do it to advance your toothpaste
company, your voodoo school, or your career. It is the appeal to a "higher
good" that permits the Steiner voodooists to deceive people and feel they
are doing it "for the student's own good".
All the best!
Daniel S.
Daniel Saykaly
==========================================
INTERNET: dsaykaly interlink.net
==========================================
From ??? ??? Tue Apr 23 23:29:59 1996
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From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: Guru Tricks
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 16:26:54 -0500
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Daniel Saykaly notes:
>Either way, the issue is: did the school/teacher hide its/his/her true
>orientation.... as the Steiner schools do.
What is stopping parents who are considering a "Steiner school" from reading
any of the publicly available books by Steiner and others on his philosophy?
Has anybody at a Waldorf school tried to hide a Steiner book from you?
There are plenty of serious questions that a publicly funded school has to
face when adopting or adapting the Waldorf approach. But nobody is hiding
the fact that privately funded Waldorf schools are based on anthroposophy,
or hiding any information about Steiner or anthroposophy from public view,
as far as I can tell.
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Wed Apr 24 16:32:31 1996
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Twin Ridges special board meeting Saturday AM 4/27
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 02:05:04 -0600
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The Twin Ridges school board will have a special meeting at the Twin Ridges
Alternative Charter School Saturday morning, April 27, 9:00 AM till Noon.
The special meeting was scheduled to give further opportunity for public
discussion of the problems of the Twin Ridges Alternative Charter School.
The agenda will include:
1) A report by the teachers on the science curriculum (postponed from the
parent/teacher meeting April 13 due to illness of the presenting teacher).
2) Discussion of Terry McAteer's 12 suggestions.
I hope to be there.
-Dan
From ??? ??? Wed Apr 24 16:32:33 1996
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: truth in advertising (was Re: Guru Tricks)
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 02:04:44 -0600
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Dick Oliver quotes Daniel Saykaly:
>
>>Either way, the issue is: did the school/teacher hide its/his/her true
>>orientation.... as the Steiner schools do.
and Dick comments:
>What is stopping parents who are considering a "Steiner school" from reading
>any of the publicly available books by Steiner and others on his philosophy?
>Has anybody at a Waldorf school tried to hide a Steiner book from you?
>
>There are plenty of serious questions that a publicly funded school has to
>face when adopting or adapting the Waldorf approach. But nobody is hiding
>the fact that privately funded Waldorf schools are based on anthroposophy,
>or hiding any information about Steiner or anthroposophy from public view,
>as far as I can tell.
When I was a Waldorf parent, I saw weird Steiner stuff on the shelf and
asked teachers about it. What I got was the "party line:" "Though we study
Steiner, we don't teach it, we only use Steiner's teaching methods in the
classroom."
This is false.
-Dan Dugan
From ??? ??? Wed Apr 24 16:32:37 1996
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: County to District re Twin Ridges charter
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 02:04:51 -0600
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NEVADA COUNTY
SUPERINTENDENT OF SCHOOLS
Dr. Terence K. McAteer
112 Nevada City Highway
Nevada City, CA 95959
Phone 916-478-6400
Fax 916-478-6410
To: George Olive, Superintendent, Twin Ridges School District
From:Terry McAteer
April 7, 1996
Thank you for the chance to speak to the faculty and a group of parents in
the past few weeks. I found both experiences very informative. As Nevada
County charts a new course for American education through Charter Schools
many questions remained unanswered. I remain very excited about the Charter
School movement and will continue to assist your district and its three
Charter Schools.
The meeting with a group of concerned parents was most enlightening. I
truly believe that they want the Twin Ridges Alternative Charter School to
thrive and prosper despite some genuine concerns. Together we came to agree
on a list of 12 plausible action steps which I firmly believe will help the
Charter School gain in accountability and resurface from this cloud which
has hung around it this past school year. I do hope you and your board will
review these 12 steps and respond to them for the sake of the district and
the direction with which the district wishes to supervise its fiduciary and
programmatic responsibility.
The order has no significance.
1. Reading List-- I believe that parents need to have a list of books read
by the student and to the student prior to the start of the school year.
Included in that list should be a listing of the basic skills which will be
taught during the course of the year. This is needed as a marketing tool
and a basic parental right.
2. Name of School-- The name Twin Ridges Alternative Charter School, due to
its length and non-identity, has been superseded in common verbiage to "The
Waldorf School." This must be changed and I suggest that a naming committee
be established to develop a name for the school so that it weans itself
from its real and common names. Waiting for a permanent site is not a good
idea as neither of the present names is marketable nor appealing.
3. Educational Evaluation and Assistance-- I am convinced that since many
of the teachers in the school have not been exposed to many of the standard
educational tools of classroom management that a trained educational expert
be contracted with to provide that needed assistance. This is not to
denigrate the teachers but meant to enhance their styles and make them more
productive and efficient. To assist in this process and display my area of
emphasis, as County Superintendent, I am willing to fund this educational
expert during the course of the 1996-97 school year.
4. Evaluation of Teachers--Furthermore, in conjunction with the site
administrator, the aforementioned educational expert should assist in
teacher evaluation and retention. I am opposed to having private school
teachers evaluate and assist public school employees as has been the case
in the past. This creates a dangerous entanglement question.
5. Teachers in Public Schools-- I believe the staff of TRACS are insulated
and need to view other Twin Ridges Schools so that a true sharing of ideas
and teaching methods takes place. This is needed for TRACS to be a full
partner in the Twin Ridges public school educational system. A process from
which to trade, share, observe must be developed soon so that it can be
implemented in the fall.
6. Fees-- I sincerely suggest that the District review its fee structure.
Being a public school, an enrollment deposit fee is not allowed by law. Nor
are any other fees for basic curricular subjects allowed.
7. Bachelor's Degree-- I believe that a bachelor's degree needs to be
required for employment of a teacher. These basic steps will create a
greater level of accountability with the public and insure a level of
respect with the parent body. Furthermore, I believe that to avoid outside
criticism that teachers need to have some mainstream classroom educational
experiences. Since Nevada County is flooded with credentialed teaches I'm
sure that these two criteria will not limit the pool of eligible
applicants.
8. Hiring Committee-- The District is the employing entity and needs to
assume a greater presence and role in the hiring process. As Harry Truman
noted, "The buck stops here."
9. K-8 Commitment-- Enrolling parents need to be informed about the
Waldorf-based teaching style and rationale for the educational process that
begins at kindergarten and concludes at 8th grade. "Charter shopping'
parents should be dissuaded from enrolling as the Waldorf-based style of
instruction is a multi-year commitment. 10. Parents as Subs-- Using parents
as substitute teachers is probably acceptable once in a great while but a
process needs to be developed which places an established teacher in the
classroom when the core teacher is absent. 11. Testing-- A key component to
all Charter Schools to accountability. I implore you to work towards an
assessment system that displays that TRACS is teaching basic skills and
that its students are successful! No matter what teachers, parents or
students think --about a testing format, the taxpaying public is demanding
accountability and we as public servants owe it to them.
12. Conflict Resolution-- I suggest that inservice time be used in
developing classroom conflict resolution skills for teachers and students
alike. There are many other school programs available which could be easily
adopted to meet this ever present need. I believe that all of these
observations and courses of action are plausible and within reach. They are
also reasonable and solely meant to strengthen your school. I do hope you
sincerely put most, if not all, into practice.
Terence K. McAteer
CC.
Leuan Baker
David McKay
Debbie Snell
Richard Burton
Sandy Furlick
Dan Dugan
Brian Buckley
From ??? ??? Wed Apr 24 16:32:44 1996
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: McAteer meeting with Twin Ridges parents 3/28/96
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 02:04:26 -0600
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This is a hearsay report based on recollections of a phone call with
Debra Snell. Please correct as necessary.
Dr. Terry McAteer, Nevada County Superintendent of Schools, met with
parents of the Twin Ridges Alternative Charter School in Nevada City March
28. Only four parents attended, the three complaining families and a
Waldorf parent from Davis who was considering moving to Nevada City. Brian
Buckley, administrator of the "Waldorf-inspired" charter, spoke briefly and
left. No teachers came.
Though the meeting had been announced for discussion of church-state
issues, McAteer refused to discuss the questions which parents had
prepared. Instead he presented a dozen suggestions for improving the
school, including higher standards for teacher hiring. McAteer can only
make recommendations, and Deby doesn't think that much will happen soon.
Twin Ridges Superintendent George Olive and board member Larry Mather
came in near the end of the meeting.
McAteer's recommendations were detailed in a letter issued later (q.v.)
[;) I couldn't figure out how our stubborn and persistent friend Deby had
let McAteer pull this agenda switch on her until I called him up. He did
the same thing to me. I agreed to hold off discussion of the Twin Ridges
situation till he had distributed his written version of his 12 points.
He's good. ;)]
-Dan
From ??? ??? Mon Apr 29 01:17:04 1996
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Web site grows
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 00:43:26 -0600
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Dear Correspondents, please check out our web site if you can.
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
The Church and State article is there, along with five others.
-Dan Dugan
From ??? ??? Mon Apr 29 11:42:16 1996
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Twin Ridges school board meeting notes
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 01:16:53 -0600
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All the board and apparently all of the teachers except Barbara R.
were there, and three people from Rudolf Steiner College, along with David
Mollet and his wife Joyce. At the front were George Olive, who greeted me,
Carol Stallworth, John Koziar, Larry Mather, and Don Pettis. Stallworth and
Pettis never spoke. In addition to the teachers there were perhaps a dozen
supporting parents there. The only dissidents were Daniel and me, and
Richard Burton.
Parent Richard Burton quoted the charter school law on the
requirement that the District had to assess the performance of the
students, which they don't do and don't have any plans to do. He also
pointed out that the meeting was announced by one line in the school
newsletter, with no mention that it was a special meeting called to talk
about the school itself.
Brian Buckley delivered a rebuttal to the charges against the
school. He said county superintendent Terry McAteer had filled them in on
separation of church and state issues, including Supreme Court cases. He
asked rhetorically if Anthroposophy was a philosophy or a religion. He said
the education was pantheistic. [isn't that a religion?] If it is a
religion, the intent of the school is not to proselytize. The
Judeo-Christian heritage underlies our culture. There is no attempt to
remove the concept of many religions from the curriculum.
Buckley implied that though the terminology was different, Steiners
theory of child development was really the same as the accepted
authorities. About critical thinking, he said "children don't relate to
concepts on an abstract, logical level." He said the foundation year
training was legal for public school teachers if Anthroposophy wasn't a
religion. Myths as fact is the art of the storyteller.
Regarding the framework of history, he said that though Steiner
believed in Atlantis, it wasn't in the curriculum. He admitted that the
history curriculum doesn't always correspond with the state framework.
Curriculum is developed in seven-year cycles. It isn't possible to do it
right away. The science curriculum would be done next spring?
Late reading is not contrary to state policy or contemporary
research. He quoted the "write to read" program distributed by IBM.
There is no racism in this school. Steiner wasn't perfect, the
founding fathers had slaves.
Lisa Nelson, a parent, referred to a clipping about a Waldorf
charter starting in Philadelphia. She mentioned that Hitler had closed the
Waldorf schools.
Betty Staley of RSC said that these charter schools were not
Waldorf schools. Everyone at the meeting went on calling it "the Waldorf
school." David Mollet said what he teaches is legal, teachers should be
credentialed, and that non-intrusive testing and measurement is possible.
Three teachers delivered the science curriculum report. Karen
Geisler, 1st grade teacher, said the child looks in a synthetic way, lives
in images and feelings. Science is taught by "characterizing"(she means
anthropomorphizing) "cycles and wholes of nature." She explained that the
water cycle was taught with "sun warriors," and the "moody ocean," and the
earth and ocean quarreling. In the tadpole cycle the make wax tadpoles with
metamorphosize. She also does a bird cycle. The children are fascinated. If
she analyzed, the children would be restless. In the second grade they
learn the characters of animals.
Lee Pope talked about 4th grade science, geography and zoology.
They study the geography of California land forms, the glaciers, sierras,
ecology, natives, and the impact of the miners. This gives a sense of
responsibility. In zoology the subjective part is love and responsibility,
the objective is observation and the beginning of categorization,
similarities and differences. They study the three kinds of teeth that
humans have and the more specialized teeth of animals, rodents, carnivores,
ungulates.
Carol Nimick said that they cover everything that's covered in the
public school curriculum, but a different times. Their method creates
wonder, feeling, and responsibility. At the ages of 11 and 12 children are
able to abstract from experience, use deduction, conceptualization, and
analysis. Science develops the will by writing up experiments. She outlined
the procedure of experiment, recollection, sleep and then reiteration.
Daena Ross, who was sitting next to me, said that I could visit her
classroom any time. She said that the heart was not a pump, and that there
was research going on at the University of Arizona that showed it was "an
energy vortex." Nobody knew by whom. I pointed out that this was a prime
example of the pseudoscience that's rife in Waldorf circles. Daniel made a
very judicious two-minute speech asking the board to consider why this was
so important to the Waldorfians.
Gail Davis, who teaches at RSC, said that at RSC they dissociate
themselves from all dogmatism. [I guess she hasn't looked at RSC
publications lately.] Betty Staley recommended the first hundred pages of a
book by Daniel Goldman about children's brains. Irene Munz (admins W in
public for RSC) recommended Newsweek Feb. 19, 1996 "Your Child's Brain."
I handed out the Church and State article to everybody. My list of
questions was duplicated and distributed by the board, but not discussed.
McAteer's twelve suggestions were distributed, but not discussed either.
Rumor is that the Charter Council has decided to ignore them since they
weren't addressed to them.
-Dan Dugan