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001 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - PLANS expands
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: PLANS expands
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:08:36 -0700
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At Citizens for Twin Ridges School District Accountability meeting tonight,
we voted unanamously to join with PLANS to increase efforts to educate the
public and place public Waldorf schools back in the private sector where
they belong. Moving onto PLANS board [from the committee] will be Dr.James
Morton and "Chip" Gautier. The first tasks will be to form a non-profit
corporation, and begin fund raising efforts.
YES!!!
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools
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-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n379 --------------
001 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - our day at Oak Ridge Elementary School
002 - {~_~} (allure netcom.com) - Converts?
003 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Nhia Kao Xiong's letter
004 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: Converts?
005 - TEAM-PHYZZ mail.utexas.ed - W.I. Thompson excerpts
006 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: our day at Oak Ridge Elementary School
007 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Donation to PLANS
008 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Call from Oak Ridge
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: our day at Oak Ridge Elementary School
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 01:17:36 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Wednesday, April 30
Beginning in March, 1996, PLANS wrote several letters to the Sacramento
(California) School Board warning them about the problems with Waldorf
programs. Americans United for Separation of Church and State submitted a
letter detailing the legal precedents. There was no response, and our
request to make a presentation to them was ignored. In September, 1996, the
existing Oak Ridge Elementary School was reopened as a "Waldorf Method"
magnet school after teachers took a summer workshop at Rudolf Steiner
College. The school population is 85% from non-English-speaking families.
Twelve teachers, about a quarter of the staff, have objected to Waldorf
program and the classes they are required to take at Rudolf Steiner College
and from Waldorf mentors. Their objections include religious content in the
training and lack of confidence in the effectiveness of the Waldorf
pedagogy. Eleven of the twelve have been forced to request transfers to
other schools. To protect their ability to get new jobs, PLANS is advising
these teachers confidentially.
Today PLANS board members Debra Snell and Chip Gauthier from Grass Valley,
and myself, Dan Dugan from San Francisco, met at 11:30 AM at Oak Ridge
School. We had learned that the Superintendent of Schools was holding a
meeting tonight for parents of six schools to give feedback about how the
schools might be improved. We decided to put the Waldorf program on the
agenda. If they wouldn't listen from the top down, we'd try from the bottom
up, talking to the parents. Deby, Chip and I distributed a flyer with the
following text in English, Spanish, and Hmong. We were unable to obtain a
Lao translation in time.
SAVE OAK RIDGE SCHOOL FROM THE STEINER CULT
Attend the community meeting tonight, Wednesday April 30, with Interim
Superintendent of Schools Jim Sweeney, 6:30 PM, at Oak Park Community
Center, 3425 Martin Luther King Jr., Blvd.
Oak Ridge School is being converted to a "Waldorf" school. This violates
the U.S. Constitution's separation of church and state. Waldorf education
is a religious missionary activity of "Anthroposophy," a cult-like
religious sect started by Rudolf Steiner. Waldorf teachers are required to
study Steiner's religious teachings. Teachers who refuse, including some
who have taught at Oak Ridge for as long as 12 years, have been forced to
request a transfer. They are being told that their college degrees, state
credentials, years of experience, and personal commitment to your children
and community are not sufficient to teach your children. These teachers
will be lost if you do not take a stand. Parents need to say "no" to
prayer-like activities and religious ceremonies in the classroom.
Waldorf teaching methods are unproven and questionable. The Waldorf child
development model is based only on Rudolf Steiner's "spiritual science" and
ignores all scientific research. Waldorf methods say reading shouldn't be
taught until third grade, and computers shouldn't be used until high
school. Parents need to speak up if they want their children to engage in
prereading education and reading instruction during their first four years
of public education. Parents must demand that their children have access to
computers, just as children do at other California public schools.
This flyer is from People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools (PLANS).
PLANS helps parents, teachers, administrators, and school boards combat the
Waldorf movement's program to "save" your children by taking over public
schools. Among others, PLANS is recognized by Americans United for
Separation of Church and State (AU), California Teachers Association (CTA),
American Family Foundation (AFF), and Dr. Paul Martin of Wellspring
Retreat, a cult exit program. Contact us for more information and support.
Debra Snell, President, (916) 273-1005 snell oro.net
Dan Dugan, Secretary, (415) 821-9776 plans dandugan.com
PLANS home page: http://www.waldorfcritics.org
In addition, one of the teachers had made up a page of clippings featuring
the California constitution (Sec. 5, Religious Institutions -- Grants
Prohibited), catalog descriptions of Steiner's "four basic books," and two
Steiner quotes, one on karma and reincarnation, and one about Waldorf:
"Waldorf School Education is not a pedagogical system but an Art -- The Art
of awakening what is actually there within the human being. Fundamentally,
the Waldorf school does not want to educate, but to awaken. For a awakening
is needed today. First of all, teachers must be awakened, and then the
teachers must awaken the children and the young people."
[Rudolf Steiner, *The Younger Generation*]
The parents accepted the flyers gratefully. Some staff refused to take
them, but others came out to get more copies. One person told us our
statement about missionary activity was a lie. A teacher named Debbie
warned me that I could not step onto the school grounds. We were relieved
that no one confronted us. Some parents who have been unhappy with the
program were very pleased that we were pressing their cause. We heard from
inside that there was quite a flutter in the faculty room, with the Waldorf
devotees going to the computers to write a rebuttal but being unable to
focus. When school let out we gave flyers to the departing kids, asking
them to take them home, until we ran out. When one child got a set the
others would wait until they all got them, and most thanked us politely.
The meeting with Interim Superintendent of Schools Jim Sweeney was held in
the early evening at a community center a few blocks from the school.
Though it was to cover six schools, about half of the 80 or so parents
attending, many with children in tow, were from Oak Ridge. Our orange and
yellow flyers were visible everywhere. A news camera took a brief shot of
the crowd and left. The announcement had said that school board members
might attend, and we were very pleased to see the board President J. Shenir
(sp?) up front with Mr. Sweeney. Another board member, Karen Young, came in
later. Neither of these people had been on the board when we wrote to them
last year.
The board president presided with Sweeney assisting. First they drummed up
participation in a special election for a bond issue to fund city-wide
school building improvements, then talked about parking problems. It took a
long time because everything had to be translated into Spanish, Lao and
Hmong. At the beginning people were asked to move into language groups, so
the translations could be done simultaneously. Shenir and Sweeney usually
spoke too long before waiting for translation. A parent asked what the
flyers were about. Irma, the principal, was given the floor, and proceeded
to make platitudes at great length, having to be stopped each time much too
late for the translators to possibly handle it. Shenir would not call on us
for a rebuttal, but instead called a special meeting for next week just to
discuss the program at the school.
Nhia Kao Xiong, a parent, was allowed to read a letter expressing concerns
about the Waldorf program and asking for early reading and computers. At
the end of the meeting I tried to huddle with Sweeney and Shenir, but after
they agreed Shenir left me with Sweeney and three Waldorf-supporting
teachers. I explained my history briefly, and started to state our case.
The teachers said that no teachers had been forced to leave. I said the
dissident teachers had told us a different story. After I had said that
there were two issues, separation of church and state and the competence of
the Waldorf program, Sweeney cut me off, saying that this was a matter
between the principal and parents, and walked away. I found Shenir again
and asked him if we could make a presentation at the meeting next week. He
said no, the teachers were quite well informed about Waldorf. I asked him
if he had any idea of the nature of Waldorf teacher training. He didn't. I
suggested that after my presentation he might know more. I asked if we
rented a hall and had our own meeting after their meeting, would he come,
and he said probably not. I reminded him that we were alleging violations
of law, and that he had a legal duty of oversight.
Outside the center a crowd of parents lingered, and the nucleus of a local
committee was formed. They were outraged that we were not allowed to speak.
More news next week.
-Dan Dugan
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From: {~_~} (allure netcom.com)
Subject: Converts?
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:07:38 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: (199705010701.AAA25294 lists1.best.com)
) Moving onto PLANS board [from the committee] will be Dr.James
) Morton and "Chip" Gautier. The first tasks will be to form a non-profit
) corporation, and begin fund raising efforts.
The Christian Fundamentalist joining hands with Atheists.
Now this is a first. I guess in God and Nature all things are possible...
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n379.3 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Nhia Kao Xiong's letter
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:23:07 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
While Nhia was reading this letter, Oak Ridge pricipal Erma Jew,
Superintendent Sweeney and Board President J. Shenir (sp) huddled in front
talking with each other. Since Dan and I were sitting in the front row, I
stated "You need to _listen_ to what this man is saying." Sup. Sweeney
turned to me and replied,"We were given a copy of his letter."
His letter was very moving, and worth reposting, so here it is.
April 30, 1997
Dear Dr. Sweeney:
My name is Nhia Kao Xiong. We the parents of Oakridge Elementary School are
concerned about the introduction of Waldorf Educational philosophy and
methodology into our children's classrooms. We were not given the
opportunity to scrutinize the curriculum nor were we told about the new
program that Oakridge was undergoing until the second year during a parent
meeting in December. We do not know much about what the program is about or
what it's goals and intention are.
We have asked to have a meeting with the principal. Irma Jew, and Katherine
Lehman to discuss and explain what Waldorf education was about. Instead
they have ignored our request. We are very upset and confused as to what is
going on. As parents, we are concerned about the education of our children
and their well-being. By denying us an explaination of the Waldorf
educational philosophy and methodology, we feel that they must be hiding
something.
Many may think that just because we are illiterate in the English language
and can not communicate fluently with the principal and teachers does not
mean that we do not care about the education of our children. We have seen
our children bring home yarns and knitting needles instead of homework and
books. We ask our children what they are doing at school, they say that
they are knitting, drawing, painting, and singing. Those things are very
beneficial to the growth of the child but what about reading, writing, and
math ? We WANT our children to learn English. We want them to learn how to
read and write in English as well as in their own language. Those students
that are now in the sixth grade will be going to seventh next year. Will
there be a Waldorf middle school for them to go to? This is where we see
that our children are not getting the most out of their education. Many
turn to gangs because they cannot succeed in school. This is due to the
fact that they are not academically prepared to go to the next level of
their education.
Furthermore, we are convinced that the "Waldorf" teaching method is not an
effective method for preparing our children for the future and hereby
demand that it is removed from our public schools. We reserve the right to
decide what our children are being taught and we will not, under any
curcumstances, allow this cult-like teaching method to be used for teaching
them. I have enclosed a list of parents who are strongly against the idea
of using "Waldorf" teaching methods at our public schools.
I can be reached at (***) ***-****.
Sincerely,
Nhia Kao Xiong.
(This man had a long line of parents waiting to sign his letter. He, in
fact, ran out of paper. A worker from the Community Center rushed to his
aid.-Deby)
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Converts?
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 09:45:34 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199705010701.AAA25294 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199705011508.IAA11903 lists1.best.com)
)) Moving onto PLANS board [from the committee] will be Dr.James
)) Morton and "Chip" Gautier. The first tasks will be to form a non-profit
)) corporation, and begin fund raising efforts.
)
)The Christian Fundamentalist joining hands with Atheists.
)Now this is a first. I guess in God and Nature all things are possible...
Hardly, El. Please use your search engine to find "The Joint Baptist
Committee" on the www. Reading their information will give you a clue as to
where Dr. Morton is coming from. PLANS is honored to be associated with a
man with such high integrity.
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n379.5 ---------------
From: TEAM-PHYZZ mail.utexas.edu (tom mellett)
Subject: W.I. Thompson excerpts
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:17:02 -0500 (CDT)
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Dan,
I had just returned the book to the library here when your request
came. But here are some excerpts I posted on the Steiner List recently.
Tom
======================================================
)From the book:
_Coming into Being: Artifacts and Texts in the Evolution of
Consciousness_, by William Irwin Thompson, published by St. Martin's Press,
N.Y.,
1996.
The book is a series of 12 essays and essay number 4 is titled
(without benefit of a good editor, I surmise): "Weird Myths about Human
Origins as Expressive of the Evolution of Consciousness from the
Territorial Nation-State to Global Noetic Polities: The Strange Cases of
Zecharia Sitchin and Rudolf Steiner."
I quote from page 79: (My EMPHASES throughout)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Steiner is an amazing visionary, but if one becomes a
fundamentalist follower of his, an Anthroposophist constantly intoning "Der
Doktor hat gesagt," ("The Doctor said"), then one destroys the spirit with
the letter of literalism.
"Literalism is very often the affliction that followers inflict on
their more imaginative leaders. The followers degrade the movement, and
everything the leader has tried to do becomes a rigid and ridiculous
caricature of itself. Steiner fell into the sacrificial role of leader and
played out the tragedy of followership for all of us to see. One
disgruntled follower burned down his Goetheanum, and another PROBABLY
POISONED HIM. A remnant of his followers have EMBALMED his remains in a
HUMORLESS CULT of 19th Century folk romanticism, in terrified FLIGHT from
the demon Ahriman and his servants in the modern electronic world.
"There is a shadow side to all leaders that gets unconsciously
picked up and acted out by their followers. When a great initiate such as
Steiner drops into incarnation in too heavy a fashion, he creates a big
splash, and that cultural splash creates the OPPOSITE reactions of
followership with the Anthroposophists and decayed German Romanticism in
Hitler's fascination with the occult." (Page 79)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In spite of the simplistic and escapist culture of his followers,
Steiner himself was a very complex and multi-dimensional personality. He
hung out in the coffee houses of Vienna, where he would meet and have
intense discussions with the likes of Leo Froebenius and Stefan Zweig; he
went to visit the dying Nietzsche and recognize the Fascist mania of
Nietzsche's sister long before anyone else. He edited the scientific
writings of Goethe, wrote numerous works of philosophy, and pioneered new
and very practical work in agriculture, medicine and the treatment of the
mentally retarded. But such is the anti-spiritual culture of our
universities that a nihilist like Nietzsche is turned into a literary
avatar and Steiner is not even given a passing footnote in the cultural
history of the turn of the centry. He deserves better. he certainly
deserves better than followers, but now in the work of Art Zajonc, he is
beginning to get the understanding he deserves.
"But in some ways, Steiner brought his general cultural rejection
upon himself, for his second wife Marie von Sievers, who belonged to a
well-to-do and upper-middle class family, was determined to make the good
Doctor Steiner throroughly respectable in the terms of German 19th Century
academic culture. She took a bookish rabbinical-like scholar, who didn't
know how to dress or present himself to the world, and constructed the
"German Herr Professor Doktor." Steiner never discusses his marriages and
sexual experiences, and he seems not to have thought very highly of the
temptations of the flesh. Some historians such as Richard Tarnas, feel that
Steiner might not have been so much asexual as a repressed homosexual who
had mothers instead of lovers for wives. Living in a time when
homosexuality would have invalidated his whole religious movement and
mission as nothing but ideological camaflouge for perversion and heresy, he
simply clamped down hard on sexuality. The jealousy and competition for the
ownership of Steiner by the women around him, however, was evidently pretty
intense. Frau Doktor Steiner, Marie von Sievers, was the leader of the
movement's travelling eurythmy dance company, but Frau Steiner did not like
Steiner's collaboration with Ita Wegman, the leader of the anthroposophical
medical movement. All of which is to say that Steiner was human, all too
human, and very much the product of his time."
(pages 80-81)
------------------------------------------------------------------
"Steiner's is an intellectual approach to heal the rift between
elitist scholarly knowledge and folk knowledge. It is an attempt to create
a sensitivity to the astral plane in reaction to the materialism of his
time. Unfortunately, much of anthroposophy has remained stuck in the 'fin
de siecle' 'art nouveau' [movement] of its founding era. If one goes, as I
did in Bern, to a eurythmy performance, one notices that eurythmy is all
astral and psychic. The women move about in pastel nighties with their arms
flailing about in the air--- supposedly to manifest angels in the ether---
while to the side a woman in Birkenstocks, homespun smock, and a Dutch boy
haircut, intones Novalis with a deadly serious expression and takes five
minutes to extend each vowel so that the angels can get out of the vowels
and join in with the movements of the dance. Every gesture of the dancers
reaches up in a gnostic effort to get out of the body and catch the
vibrating vowels the woman in blowing to them like so many soap bubbles.
There are no loins; there are certainly no genitals; and there is no
ground; it is all in the air.
Eurythmy is just about the opposite of flamenco. Flamenco is
rooted, grounded; the dancers strike the earth with strong feet and full
muscular thighs. Recall Carlos Sauras's movie of the flamenco version of
_Carmen_, in which the older teacher tells the younger woman to stick her
tits out like the horns of a bull. This is the mirror-opposite of Steiner
and Marie von Sievers, and of [George] Balanchine, too. Young ballerinas
in New York would, like Amazons, have their breasts cut down because
Balanchine didn't like big breasts sticking out in violation of the purity
of line. Russian mystic that he was, he wanted his dancers to be
androgynous angels. So this 'fin de siecle' spiritual rejection of
sexuality is an expression of the culture of the first half of the 20th
century. You find it in Steiner, in Balanchine, as well as in Sri Auribindo
and his yogic consort, Mira Richard."
(pages 82-83)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: our day at Oak Ridge Elementary School
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 16:56:10 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199705010819.BAA16629 lists1.best.com)
)Wednesday, April 30
)
Dan Dugan reports on Oak Ridge,
[snip]
)Shenir and Sweeney usually spoke too long before waiting for translation.
)A parent )asked what the flyers were about. Irma, the principal, was given
)the floor, and )proceeded to make platitudes at great length, having to be
)stopped each time much too
)late for the translators to possibly handle it. Shenir would not call on us
)for a rebuttal, but instead called a special meeting for next week just to
)discuss the program at the school.
I think Jay Schenirer, Board President, did a good job with the language
issue, pausing rather frequently for translation. The parents seemed
engaged in the meeting while he spoke. Oak Ridge principal, OTOH, seemed to
be talking to the school officials (while looking at the parents). Irma
behavior was interesting to me because if _anyone_ should know the families
needs at the school, it _should_ be her. Yet, she seemed to be unaware that
few people spoke English. She did not pause even _one_ time without Dan,
myself, Sweeney or Schenirer's prompting. At times, the prompting had to
include a hand on her shoulder (by the Board President)!! The interpretors
didn't have a chance to get the message out.
Irma opened her speech with, "First of all, Oak Ridge did not _convert_ to
a public school, we _chose_ it." I couldn't help but wonder how _that_
subtlety was translatable. (The former PTA President mentioned earlier that
when she questioned the "Waldorf" program, Irma told her the parents had
_voted_ 97% to convert to a Waldorf school. The PTA President (at the time)
asked if she could see the ballets, as she did not remember _any_ election
being held. Irma told her that she did not save the ballets.) Many parents
expressed distain for her while we were passing out flyers. It appears that
many people do not trust her.
While Dan was "huddling" with the school officials, I went out to speak
with the families, and to track down a copy of the letter read outloud
during the meeting. The parents gathered around me, expressing their
concern, and thanking me for being there. They _begged_ us to come to the
5/7 meeting on Waldorf to "represent" them. I promised we would come. The
families lingered around the parking lot (..kind of like at the Waldorf
Schools we went to..) talking with each other, within their language
groups. I heard (in English) statements such as, "We're getting this _out_
of our school", "My children are not reading. They don't even work on this
at school. What will we do if our kids don't get a good education?"
"Where are the computers?" "Our favorite teachers are _leaving_, what are
we going to do about this?" (Later, a teacher told me "This meeting was the
first time in over a decade that I have witnesses the parents coming
together like this.")
I wandered back into the room where Dan was speaking with the school
officials in time to hear the President of the Board saying that PLANS will
be unable to speak at the meeting about Waldorf concerns next week.
Immediately, I returned to the parking lot to inform the parents that PLANS
would not be able to speak at the meeting next week. The parents were
visibly outraged. They pleaded with us to come anyway. They promised that
they would stand in the parking lot until we were allowed to speak.
A couple of parents were talking about hiring lawyers when we left, tired
but victorious. It was clear to us that we did not _introduce_ these
concerns about Waldorf, just validated them.
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n379.7 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Donation to PLANS
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:15:58 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
5/1/97
I received a phone call from a couple who attended the meeting at Oak Ridge
School last night. They wanted to thank us for our help by donating
$100.00 toward the work that we are doing. They have requested to remain
annonomous.
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n379.8 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Call from Oak Ridge
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 23:13:12 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I received a telephone call from one of the dissident teachers at Oak
Ridge. Two more teachers turned in their transfer request to move to a new
school, and more are concerned that they have missed the deadline to do so.
(No numbers given of teachers who are considering leaving the school.)
This teacher read a parent memo issued by the school today. I took notes as
she was reading, and will attempt to recap the memo. This teacher said that
Irma was "furious" about our presence. She was furious because we were
"outsiders who knew nothing about the school."
The parent newsletter stated that "people from outside passed out flyers to
the parent body yesterday. Many statements were false. This is an attack on
teachers who are working hard to serve your children."
"Nine out of 30 teachers are choosing to leave. Teachers may choose to
leave a Magnet school."
"Our student are receiving academic instruction by use of the program 'Word
Attack'. There are computers in classrooms. The schools goals are that
_every_ child will read at grade level by third grade." (The teacher added
a commentary at this point, "Sure, the teachers that are using 'Word
Attack' and insisting on computers in the classroom are the very _same_
teachers that are refusing to teach the Waldorf curriculum, and we are all
leaving the school.")
"Oak Ridge School is a public Waldorf Magnet school. We are following
district guidelines, and have been approved by the Federal Department of
Education."
Information followed about the public meeting on Wednesday to discuss
Waldorf concerns.
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n379 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n380 --------------
001 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Oak Ridge
002 - TEAM-PHYZZ mail.utexas.ed - Sensory and Motor Nerves
003 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Re: Oak Ridge
004 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
005 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n380.1 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Oak Ridge
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:42:49 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I spoke to a parent from Oak Ridge today. I asked her if Oak Ridge
principal, Irma Jeu, usually carried on [in English] at length before
before allowing translators to translate, or was she simply nervious at
Wednesday evening's meeting. She replied that Irma generally does her own
translating, every couple of sentences. Upon inquirey, I learned that the
school, with 40-42% of the population comprized of Hmong speaking parents,
and 25% Mein, does not use translators for this population at all-school
meetings. Irma Jeu only speaks Spanish, and does not have _anyone_
translate for the largest percentage of the parent population.
This information was supported by a teacher at the school.
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools
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From: TEAM-PHYZZ mail.utexas.edu (tom mellett)
Subject: Sensory and Motor Nerves
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:34:13 -0500 (CDT)
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Dan,
There's been a lot of discussion on the list in the past about the
"heart-as-pump" or not--- and about Goethe's color theory and Newton's, but
I wonder if there has ever been a discussion about Steiner's claim that
physiology makes a completely false distinction between the so-called
"senory nerves" and the "motor nerves."
To Steiner, ALL nerves were sensory nerves and the so-called
"motor" nerves in your arm, for example, were not responsible for making
your arm move, but were there to allow you to SENSE the motion of the arm.
The actual cause of the motion was to be found in the muscles and
metabolism (the will) and was completely independent of the nerve process
(thinking).
Tom.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n380.3 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:43:27 -0700
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Update on details of spelling and contacts:
The principal of Oak Ridge Elementary School is Irma Jue.
The school district is Sacramento City Unified School District.
I don't know the official title of the board, (board of trustees or
education), but their address is:
520 Capitol Mall, Sacramento, CA 95814
phone 916 264 4300, 4310
fax 916 264 4191
The Interim Superintendent is Jim Sweeney.
The board President is:
Jay Schenirer
phone 916 739 8104
-Dan
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 14:08:42 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (199705031734.KAA17995 lists1.best.com)
)Dan,
) There's been a lot of discussion on the list in the past about the
)"heart-as-pump" or not--- and about Goethe's color theory and Newton's, but
)I wonder if there has ever been a discussion about Steiner's claim that
)physiology makes a completely false distinction between the so-called
)"senory nerves" and the "motor nerves."
) To Steiner, ALL nerves were sensory nerves and the so-called
)"motor" nerves in your arm, for example, were not responsible for making
)your arm move, but were there to allow you to SENSE the motion of the arm.
)The actual cause of the motion was to be found in the muscles and
)metabolism (the will) and was completely independent of the nerve process
)(thinking).
)
)Tom.
Tom,
Can you tell us your resource for this information ? Thanks,
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n380.5 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 09:53:44 +1200
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In-Reply-To: (199705031734.KAA17995 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan must be paying the opposition to stir up some trouble, the list
has been so quiet for a while.
For my money, discussion of pseudo-scientific topics like this belongs on
the esoterica lists of the believers (Anthroposophical Science, Steiner,
Waldorf), not on a critics list.
Here it should be dismissed. To discuss it here is to lend to it the
legitimacy its proponents crave: credibility as a real possibility, and
therefore, proof of their guru's spiritual correctness.
Ignoring such discussion here is especially fitting as the faithful lists
do not admit of criticism or argument about the truth or fallacy of
SteinDorfPop ideas (especially by non-believers), only about their
refinement or understanding by the faithful. Why should we do the work they
refuse to do? We have already rejected spiritualism.
The method of thinking by which such ideas are arrived at is opposite to
the standards of rationalism and science adopted by 99.999 percent of the
world's thinkers.
To discuss the scientific validity of such obvious poppycock -- especially
when the proponent of the discussion offers no _evidence_ of any kind as a
basis for the discussion, but only the ravings of an occult -- is to cause
this list to descend to the maunderings of the believers' lists.
This is not to say that I believe in censoring this list; only that we
should not waste our time being drawn into such arguments that will produce
nothing useful for either side, but will bring this list down to the
intellectual level of the other lists, which evidence a false erudition
that, I am sure, impresses the non-critical thinking reader.
I have never heard of one shred of scientific hyppothesis or research that
matches the silly notion of will acting independently of nerves, or that
all nerves are one-way sensory conduits. The ideas smack of the ancient
Greek belief that we see by projecting rays of some sort from our eyes into
our surroundings. Or of the mystical belief that reality exists only in our
minds.
Therefore the subject is not worth discussing on a list devoted to
criticism. Here the only thing to be said is that this rubbish is more
prima facie evidence of the preposterousness of the foundation of the
Steiner cult of education, and one more reason to dismiss it as a valid one
for our children.
Why? Because there is no way to be sure that such anti-science does not
find its way into the minds of our children. Despite the oft-repeated lie
by SteinDorfPop schools that they do not teach Anthroposophy in the
classroom, it is patently obvious that they do so, in disguise. The "heart
is not a pump" rubbish was presented to my children, for instance, as a
valid scientific hypothesis for which there is good _evidence_. This is
nothing but Anthroposophical inculcation by stealth.
)Dan,
) There's been a lot of discussion on the list in the past about the
)"heart-as-pump" or not--- and about Goethe's color theory and Newton's, but
)I wonder if there has ever been a discussion about Steiner's claim that
)physiology makes a completely false distinction between the so-called
)"senory nerves" and the "motor nerves."
) To Steiner, ALL nerves were sensory nerves and the so-called
)"motor" nerves in your arm, for example, were not responsible for making
)your arm move, but were there to allow you to SENSE the motion of the arm.
)The actual cause of the motion was to be found in the muscles and
)metabolism (the will) and was completely independent of the nerve process
)(thinking).
)
)Tom.
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n380 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n381 --------------
001 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and Belgium
002 - RigbyL aol.com - Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
003 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - admin
004 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
005 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Science and Steiner
006 - "Peter Schwab" (pschwab a - Re: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and Belgi
007 - "Peter Schwab" (pschwab a - Re: California Constitution
008 - "Peter Schwab" (pschwab a - Re: admin
009 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - informing parents
010 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - the law about leafleting at schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n381.1 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and Belgium
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 18:20:34 +0200 (MET DST)
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Hello everybody! I am a new contributor to this list.
I mention news items from The Netherlands and Belgium.
On Friday, 9 May 1997, there will be a debate in Leeuwarden, The
Netherlands, on Anthroposophy and its links to medicine and education. It
will be in Theater Romein, Bagijnestraat 59; at 8 p.m. Organizers are the
Frysk Anty Fassisme Komitee, and SIMPOS (Foundation for Information on
Social Problems and Occult Tendencies).
First, the historian Herman de Tollenaere will speak. Then, three others
will join the debate: the doctor Wiebe Venema of the Anti-Quackery League;
and representatives of Waldorf education and Anthroposophical therapy.
The audience will also be able to participate in the discussion.
------------
)From Belgium:
In May 1997, a committee of the Belgian parliament published a 700 page
report on cults (Dutch: 'sekten'). The parliamentary committee was formed
after the mass suicide and murder by the Order of the Solar Temple. One
Solar Temple leader, Jouret, was Belgian. The Solar Temple had links to the
extreme Right in Belgian politics.
The report mentions 189 'cults', including Anthroposophy.
The Vlaams Blok, the party of the extreme Right, reacted to the report,
saying it feared an 'anti-cult witch hunt'. Reactions from Roman Catholic
leaders were divided. Some thought the ultra-conservative Catholic
organization Opus Dei should not have been included in the report.
-----------
Best wishes to everyone.
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From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 12:56:24 -0400 (EDT)
Tom, in a message dated 97-05-03 14:20:57 EDT, you wrote:
(( To Steiner, ALL nerves were sensory nerves and the so-called
"motor" nerves in your arm, for example, were not responsible for making
your arm move, but were there to allow you to SENSE the motion of the arm.
The actual cause of the motion was to be found in the muscles and
metabolism (the will) and was completely independent of the nerve process
(thinking). ))
Interesting. I gather you hang out in one of the world's leading medical
centers. Any word from neurologist friends on this idea?
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: admin
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 12:58:14 -0700
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As of a few days ago, there were 118 subscribers here. A whole lotta
lurkers! Are you all Anthroposophists watching to see what evil the
Ahrimaniacs are up to? Does anybody have questions or anything to discuss?
-Dan Dugan
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 12:58:22 -0700
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Deby Snell asked Tom Mellett for a reference for his statement:
)) To Steiner, ALL nerves were sensory nerves and the so-called
))"motor" nerves in your arm, for example, were not responsible for making
))your arm move, but were there to allow you to SENSE the motion of the arm.
))The actual cause of the motion was to be found in the muscles and
))metabolism (the will) and was completely independent of the nerve process
))(thinking).
Here's one from me:
"While the nervous system is being formed in the body all that belongs to
the pre-natal life is a work there. The pre-natal life of the soul works
into the human body through antipathy, memory and concept, and thereby
creates the nerves. This is the true concept of nerves. All talk of
classifying nerves as sensory and motor is meaningless..."
[Steiner, Rudolf. Study of Man: General Education Course: Fourteen
Lectures given by Rudolf Steiner in Stuttgart 21st August-5th September
1919. (1919) Trans. Daphne Harwood and Helen Fox. London: Rudolf Steiner
Press, 1960, p. 33.]
Note that this book is one that -all- Waldorf teacher trainees surely study.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n381.5 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Science and Steiner
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 12:58:16 -0700
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Paul Levy said 4/15 (Re: Science from Jorgen Wagner), replying to Daniel Sabsay,
)My only offering can be an objective one: that anthroposophy is one of
)several objective paths to truth. I also accept that science (in your
)terms) is also an objective path to truth. However, I must qualify this by
)pointing out that both of these sentences are (by your own definition)
)subjective and therefore religious as will be any reply you send to this
)note.
(snip)
Newcomers here may wonder what arcane discussions of the philosophy of
science can possibly have to do with Waldorf education. The founder of
Waldorf education, Rudolf Steiner, held forth not only as a spiritual
leader but as an authority on anything his gullible followers wanted to
hear about. This included scientific subjects, and you will see Steiner
described as a "scientist" in Anthroposophical literature. His scientific
qualifications were limited to editing Goethe's writings on science, which
have never been considered, then or now, as scientific, and some
high-school level teaching. From the record of his science lectures to his
flock, meticulously taken down in shorthand, he was a very bad science
teacher. He was always apologizing for not having prepared his apparatus,
and in his talks he would often ramble off-topic and never get to his main
points. Nonetheless his unsophisticated listeners were impressed by his
authoritative delivery, and his following continues. There is a similar
phenomenon happening with Deepak Chopra today. We can tune into our public
television station on a pledge night and see Chopra's pseudoscientific
lectures, delivered to a reverent crowd of people who could obviously
afford real education if they knew the difference, presented back-to-back
as a special treat. The guru business will always be profitable.
Steiner wanted to "re-spiritualize" society, and viewed modern science as
an erroneous "materialistic" way of viewing nature. He promoted "Goethean
science," throwing out all previous knowledge and divining the underlying
principles of nature by simple observation. Since in Goethean science
hypotheses are not subjected to critical tests, as they are in real
science, there is no proof to fall back on but the authority of the "seer"
and whether it feels right to you. Since Steiner claimed "exact scientific
observation" of the spiritual world, to question his authority on any
detail is to question his credibility on everything. This leads devotees
into the self-deprecating position of having to say that any preposterous
statement of Steiner's is "difficult," rather than simply wrong.
We are coming to Waldorf, patient readers. Steiner's "spiritual science"
includes doctrines about the nature of the physical world which are in
direct contradiction to scientific knowledge. These include assertions that
Newton was wrong about light and color (white light cannot be divided into
constituent colors), that blood moves itself (the heart is not a pump), and
that there is no such thing as a motor nerve. These doctrines are held by
Steiner devotees to be truths of nature, so it is inevitable that they will
creep into the Waldorf classroom. All Waldorf students repeat Goethe's
lame-brained experiments with a prism, for example. It depends on how
devoted the teacher is to Anthroposophy whether the Anthroposophical
science doctrines will actually be presented as fact, be presented as
"alternatives," or in the case of a teacher who is not sure, or cautious,
not be stated directly but only implied by omission of real scientific
explanations of the phenomena so the children can (purportedly) discover
the principles for themselves.
It was an amazing day when we heard the Yuba River School (publicly funded
charter) teachers assert to their school board that "the heart is not a
pump" and that there was ongoing scientific research that was proving it.
If this is a belief of Anthroposophists, based on revelation to their
founder from supernatural sources, and only Anthroposophists believe it,
then this is a religious doctrine, not science. There is a strong parallel
here to the "creation science" some Christians want to teach in public
schools. Thus we are justified in saying that Anthroposophical doctrine is
taught in the schools, and the teachers, mis-educated as they are, are
honestly believing that they are not teaching Anthroposophy because they
believe it to be simply scientific fact.
Returning to Paul Levy's statement that opened this essay, he shows the
discomfort of trying to accept both sides at once. He is driven into
self-defeating relativism, stating that both science and Anthroposophy are
"objective paths to truth." Since science and Anthroposophy are opposed on
many issues, this leads to "embracing contradiction" as our correspondent
James Souttar has said. Bye-bye logic, hello "you make your own reality."
Science and religion are not equivalent belief systems. Science restricts
itself to testable statements about the physical universe. Mature religions
restrict themselves to untestable concepts (metaphysics) about unseen
worlds and ultimate causes. Anthroposophy is young, a cult in the process
of becoming a religion, and hasn't worked these contradictions out yet.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n381.6 ---------------
From: "Peter Schwab" (pschwab access.ch)
Subject: Re: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and Belgiu
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:59:17 +0100
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On 4 May 97 at 18:20, Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
) Hello everybody! I am a new contributor to this list.
)
) I mention news items from The Netherlands and Belgium.
)
) On Friday, 9 May 1997, there will be a debate in Leeuwarden, The
) Netherlands, on Anthroposophy and its links to medicine and education. It
) will be in Theater Romein, Bagijnestraat 59; at 8 p.m. Organizers are the
) Frysk Anty Fassisme Komitee, and SIMPOS (Foundation for Information on
) Social Problems and Occult Tendencies).
"Anti-Faschists" and "Foundation for Information etc. ..." ... In my
translation this makes a bunch of people who think they know
everything better. Seems to me to be just the same gang of
frustrated ex-ultra-left-wing nobodies who are looking for a new
occupation after the Berlin-Wall came down. Just a the german
Jutta-Dittfurt-gang and the new professional witch-hunters,
the Gandt-brothers.
Just one question: Don't you think the fact that most european right-wing,
neo-faschist skinheads are favouring the Netherlands and Flanders to
install their boot-camps has something to to with alledged sympathies
of the population there?
If you tell, based on some dubious 90-100 years old transcripts from
Rudolf Steiner that all antropospophs are faschists, then I can
rightfully declare, based on the fact of exisiting neo-nazi
boot-camps in The Netherlands and Flanders that most of the
population there are neo-nazis? Or can't I???
)
) First, the historian Herman de Tollenaere will speak. Then, three others
) will join the debate: the doctor Wiebe Venema of the Anti-Quackery League;
) and representatives of Waldorf education and Anthroposophical therapy.
)
It seems to me that the historian in question is you, if so, I would
be glad to get a transcription of your speech, just out of
curiousity. I just *love* reading jokes.
And I really wonder what an historian has to tell about
anthroposophical medicine.
) The audience will also be able to participate in the discussion.
Just a pity I cannot be there, I am sure we would have a lot of fun together...
If you ever come down to Switzerland, drop me an e-mail early enough
so I can shape up for the match!
)
) ------------
) From Belgium:
)
) In May 1997, a committee of the Belgian parliament published a 700 page
) report on cults (Dutch: 'sekten'). The parliamentary committee was formed
) after the mass suicide and murder by the Order of the Solar Temple. One
) Solar Temple leader, Jouret, was Belgian. The Solar Temple had links to the
) extreme Right in Belgian politics.
The Swiss Canton of Genava did the same kind of rearch, anthroposophy
is _not_ quoted in it's report!
)
) The report mentions 189 'cults', including Anthroposophy.
I would like to know in which _context_ anthroposophy was quoted!
Could you provide some details, please.
)
) The Vlaams Blok, the party of the extreme Right, reacted to the report,
) saying it feared an 'anti-cult witch hunt'. Reactions from Roman Catholic
) leaders were divided. Some thought the ultra-conservative Catholic
) organization Opus Dei should not have been included in the report.
)
Certainly the first and last time I agree with those dumbheads of the
Vlaams Blok. (Btw, glad you aknowledge their existence, as for dutch
and flamish affinities to the extreme right!)
The fact that a state-report in dark-black-catholic Belgium did dare
to declare Opus Dei a cult surprises me. Then again I see this as an
indicator that the commission included into their report any
religious of philosophical movement in Belgium exept the mainstream
catholic and protestant churches. No wonder antroposophy can be found
in there among all others.
) -----------
) Best wishes to everyone.
)
Lurking anthroposophs included?
Best wishes to all (really all, well, _some_ exceptions!)
+peter+
---------------------------------------
Peter Schwab
pschwab access.ch
rte du Vanel 33, CH-2206 Les Geneveys-sur-Coffrane, Switzerland
Voice: (++41) 032 / 857.16.72
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n381.7 ---------------
From: "Peter Schwab" (pschwab access.ch)
Subject: Re: California Constitution
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:59:17 +0100
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On 26 Apr 97 at 23:33, Deby Snell wrote:
) The California Constitution is even clearer than the Federal. Waldorf
) certainly would be a great test case for these laws. I'd _love_ to see it.
) Deby
)
) Article 16, Section 5 of the California Constitution states, [etc. etc. ...]
)
) Article 9, Section I of the California Constitution states, [etc. etc. ...]
)
I have always suspected California to be the homeland of paranoia.
Thank you for confirming this!
+peter+
---------------------------------------
Peter Schwab
pschwab access.ch
rte du Vanel 33, CH-2206 Les Geneveys-sur-Coffrane, Switzerland
Voice: (++41) 032 / 857.16.72
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n381.8 ---------------
From: "Peter Schwab" (pschwab access.ch)
Subject: Re: admin
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:11:58 +0100
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On 4 May 97 at 12:58, Dan Dugan wrote:
) As of a few days ago, there were 118 subscribers here. A whole lotta
) lurkers! Are you all Anthroposophists watching to see what evil the
) Ahrimaniacs are up to? Does anybody have questions or anything to discuss?
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
)
Come on Dan, don't say you feel lonly without us!
Btw, _YOU_ being an incarnation of Ahriman? ...ROFL!
+peter+
---------------------------------------
Peter Schwab
pschwab access.ch
rte du Vanel 33, CH-2206 Les Geneveys-sur-Coffrane, Switzerland
Voice: (++41) 032 / 857.16.72
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n381.9 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: informing parents
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:05:16 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In their report, WestEd made the following recommendations to the San Diego
school board (a year and a half too late):
***
Recommendations for Parental Choice
1) The district and the school should jointly undertake a series of parent
and community education and knowledge-building activities to ensure that
parents understand the Tubman program, its distinctions from a regular
school program and their other options. While the school has attempted to
provide some of this information, a more intensive set of activities may be
necessary, such as one-on-one sessions with targeted parents, to ensure
that they have complete information to make genuine choices.
2) The school should especially target such activities to parents who are
relatively unfamiliar with Waldorf-type approaches and who are dissatisfied
with the school. The correlation between knowledge of Waldorf principles
and satisfaction with the school suggests that it is particularly important
to find more effective ways to reach this group of parents.
3) Materials distributed should be translated into languages represented in
the school. A parent conjectured that a major reason many parents thought
they had no option other than Tubman charter school is that they had
trouble understanding the printed notices distributed before the school
opened. This was particularly true of the non-English speakers.
Neighborhood forums and translations would likely remedy some of these
problems.
***
In Sacramento, it appears that none of this was done. The principal and
school board decided to adopt a Waldorf program, and the parents,
especially the non-English speaking, still have little idea what it is
about. Since Waldorf is a controversial program, equal time should be given
to opponents of the program.
["From Paper to Practice" WestEd 12002, (Executive Summary), p. 22]
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n381.10 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: the law about leafleting at schools
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:05:19 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
It just so happens Judy Daar is taking a course on legal issues in schools,
and offers PLANS this citation:
"If adults come to school for the purpose of handing out leaflets or
otherwise engaging students in dialogue concerning political, religious, or
economic matters or other questions of public concern--they are exercising
their right of free speech and may not be (under present law) evicted or
prosecuted as loiterers under the sections described above. They may remain
even after their supply of leaflets is exhausted in order to talk to the
students--even if a large group of students gather, and even if their
presence causes inconvenience, annoyance, or unrest. The exercise of free
speech is not "unlawful purpose." (Mandel v. Municipal Court (1969) 276
Cal. App. 2D 649; People v. Hirst (1973) 31 Cal. App. 3D 75.) The Hirst
court noted that activity otherwise protected by the First Amendment may be
prohibited if it is carried on in such a manner as to disturb peace or good
order of the school session."
[California Department of Justice. Law in the School: A Guide for
California Teachers, Parents and Students. Sacramento, CA, 5th edition
1990, p. 48]
How about that!
-Dan Dugan
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n381 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n382 --------------
001 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Re: Science and Steiner
002 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Jim Caldwell comment on web site
003 - Andrew David Rowe (rowead - Re: Jim Caldwell comment on web site
004 - "Bill Gunn" (billgunn inr - Re: Jim Caldwell comment on web site
005 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: informing parents
006 - Steve Premo (premo cruzio - Re: the law about leafleting at schools
007 - Charlie_Ross Slf.Org - Re: Oak Ridge
008 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Re: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and Belgi
009 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Public Waldorf teacher training
010 - Steve Premo (premo cruzio - Re: Oak Ridge
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n382.1 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Science and Steiner
Date: Mon, 5 May 97 00:32:11 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Hi Dan,
[snip wonderful stuff]
)Science and religion are not equivalent belief systems. Science restricts
)itself to testable statements about the physical universe. Mature religions
)restrict themselves to untestable concepts (metaphysics) about unseen
)worlds and ultimate causes. Anthroposophy is young, a cult in the process
)of becoming a religion, and hasn't worked these contradictions out yet.
Total dynamite.
-- Daniel
Daniel Sabsay home.earthlink.net/~danielsabsay/ebss
Macintosh Consultant Ignorance is the Ultimate Renewable Resource
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n382.2 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Jim Caldwell comment on web site
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 01:47:17 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The following was received from the PLANS web site:
***
-Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 08:11:57 -0700
-From: Jim Caldwell (jcaldwel flash.net)
-To: plans dandugan.com
-Subject: response is difficult
Your attack on Waldorf Education reminds me of those people who in their
zeal to defend the truth consider themselves at liberty to do violence to
the truth. It reminds me of the American field officer during the Vietnam
War who baldly announced that he had to destroy one Vietnamese village in
order to save it. In my life I grew up as a Baptist, but by the end of my
first year in college I was an atheist. My conclusion was that with all
of the suffering and injustice in the world that either God did not exist
or he was a monster, and I preferred to give him the benefit of the
doubt. I earned a B.A. in psychology from the University of Texas in 1970
and was very active in the sds. I was a defendant in a civil lawsuit
filed by the University of Texas against the Austin Rag (an underground
newspaper at UT) that was appealed all the way to the Supreme Court, but
we won on first ammendment grounds. I have a Master's Degree in Social
Work from UT also and am a practicing psychotherapist. I also belong to
mensa. In 1971 I began studying anthroposophy and consider myself an
anthroposopnist, not based on any kind of religious conversion
experience, but because anthroposophy is better at providing an
framework of understanding all that I have experienced in life than
anything else I have come across.
Whatever objections you may have to the content of anthroposophy,
it is simply not intellectually honest to call anthroposophy or Waldorf
Education a cult or cult-like. It may make your objections seem more
urgent, but in doing so you do violence to the very truth you are
supposed to be upholding. If you wish to take anthroposophy to task for
holding views you disagree with or find objectionable then please do so.
But don't stoop to using perjurative words like a grocery store tabaloid
just for their shock appeal. The truth is that neither anthroposophy nor
Waldorf Education are "cult-like" in any accepted use of the term.
According to the American Heritage Dictionary definition of
religion, as "1. The expression of man's beilief in and reverence for a
superhuman power recognized as the creator and governor of the universe"
anthroposophy certainly does qualify. But that definition is so broad
that it is not useful for comparing what is religious to anything other
than what is frankly secular. To tar everyone with the same brush who is
part of a religion is no more fair than attacks made by the far right
against atheists that they are all communists because communism is an
expression of atheism.
So while it is true that anthroposophy does have some things in
common with religion, the differences are really critical. The most
important of these is that anthroposophy does not proselytize. That is
the reason that parents of children in Waldorf Schools are unaware that
anthroposophy stands behind it. We don't seek to convert people. The
reason that the schools exist is because parents like the education that
their children get there. A child may well go through the entire 12 years
of grade school and never hear the word anthroposophy or the name of
Rudolf Steiner. This is not because anthroposophists are trying to be
sneaky, but because we do not believe in proselytizing.
***
Well, Jim, (Forrest Gump) cults is as cults does. (/Forrest Gump)
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n382.3 ---------------
From: Andrew David Rowe (rowead dynamite.com.au)
Subject: Re: Jim Caldwell comment on web site
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 06:05:02 +1000
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In-Reply-To: (199705050849.BAA00273 lists1.best.com)
At 01:47 AM 5/05/97 -0700, you wrote:
)The following was received from the PLANS web site:
)
)***
)-Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 08:11:57 -0700
)-From: Jim Caldwell (jcaldwel flash.net)
)-To: plans dandugan.com
)-Subject: response is difficult
)
)...
) So while it is true that anthroposophy does have some things in
)common with religion, the differences are really critical. The most
)important of these is that anthroposophy does not proselytize. That is
)the reason that parents of children in Waldorf Schools are unaware that
)anthroposophy stands behind it. We don't seek to convert people. The
)reason that the schools exist is because parents like the education that
)their children get there. A child may well go through the entire 12 years
)of grade school and never hear the word anthroposophy or the name of
)Rudolf Steiner. This is not because anthroposophists are trying to be
)sneaky, but because we do not believe in proselytizing.
)***
I thought the reason they do not try to teach anthroposophy is because it
takes years of subtle indoctrination (either WE or some church) before you
can approach Rudolph Stieners Anthroposophical writings without falling
about laughing after a few sentences.
Andrew David Rowe
PO BOX 563
BELCONNEN ACT 2616
AUSTRALIA
+61 2 6252 6393
http:www2.dynamite.com.au/rowead/index.htm
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n382.4 ---------------
From: "Bill Gunn" (billgunn inreach.com)
Subject: Re: Jim Caldwell comment on web site
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 08:01:03 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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) So while it is true that anthroposophy does have some things in
) common with religion, the differences are really critical. The most
) important of these is that anthroposophy does not proselytize. That is
) the reason that parents of children in Waldorf Schools are unaware that
) anthroposophy stands behind it. We don't seek to convert people.
Well, Jim, I've only been reading this list for a couple weeks but I've
read ample examples of proselytizing at Northern California Waldorf schools
as early as 3rd grade. Small children view their teachers with a profound
reverence. The teacher's knowledge is looked upon as the truth. Teaching
creationism to kids in any form (Steiner or whatever) is in my opinion
"converting" in the most objectionable way; i.e. targeting misinformation
at children guised in the aura of fact.
Bill
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n382.5 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: informing parents
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 08:08:31 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (199705050607.XAA29897 lists1.best.com)
["From Paper to Practice" WestEd 12002, (Executive Summary), p. 22]
)3) Materials distributed should be translated into languages represented in
)the school. A parent conjectured that a major reason many parents thought
)they had no option other than Tubman charter school is that they had
)trouble understanding the printed notices distributed before the school
)opened. This was particularly true of the non-English speakers.
)Neighborhood forums and translations would likely remedy some of these
)problems.
)***
Dan Dugan writes,
)In Sacramento, it appears that none of this was done. The principal and
)school board decided to adopt a Waldorf program, and the parents,
)especially the non-English speaking, still have little idea what it is
)about. Since Waldorf is a controversial program, equal time should be given
)to opponents of the program.
Let's write to them and make a request.
Deby
)
)
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools
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From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: the law about leafleting at schools
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:11:36 +0000
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On 4 May 97 , Dan Dugan wrote:
) It just so happens Judy Daar is taking a course on legal issues in schools,
) and offers PLANS this citation:
)
) "If adults come to school for the purpose of handing out leaflets or
) otherwise engaging students in dialogue concerning political, religious, or
) economic matters or other questions of public concern--they are exercising
) their right of free speech and may not be (under present law) evicted or
) prosecuted as loiterers under the sections described above. They may remain
) even after their supply of leaflets is exhausted in order to talk to the
) students--even if a large group of students gather, and even if their
) presence causes inconvenience, annoyance, or unrest. The exercise of free
) speech is not "unlawful purpose." (Mandel v. Municipal Court (1969) 276
) Cal. App. 2D 649; People v. Hirst (1973) 31 Cal. App. 3D 75.) The Hirst
) court noted that activity otherwise protected by the First Amendment may be
) prohibited if it is carried on in such a manner as to disturb peace or good
) order of the school session."
I took a look at the Hirst case, which states that those who are handing
out leaflets on public school grounds cannot be prosecuted under a law
that prohibits "loitering" on school grounds, because that law only
prohibits "loitering" with no lawful purpose. Since handing out leaflets
is not unlawful, it is not "loitering" under the statute.
This does not mean that the school must allow anyone to hand out leaflets
on school grounds. The case goes on to acknowledge the "right of school
authorities to forbid handbilling on school grounds by persons who are not
students, teachers or administrators, or, if it be permitted, to control it
as to time and place, or as to the character of the message, so long as
discrimination does not result from the presentation of only one side of a
possibly controversial subject."
However, the school may not prohibit folks from standing on the sidewalk
and engaging in such activity, as long as they are not disrupting the
operation of the school:
"Without interfering with normal school activities, daytime picketing and
handbilling on public grounds near a school can effectively publicize those
grievances to pedestrians, school visitors, and deliverymen, as well as to
teachers, administrators, and students. Some picketing to that end will be
quiet and peaceful, and will in no way disturb the normal functioning of
the school. For example, it would be highly unusual if the classic
expressive gesture of the solitary picketer disrupts anything related to
the school, at least on a public sidewalk open to pedestrians."
Steve Premo
Santa Cruz, California
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n382.7 ---------------
From: Charlie_Ross Slf.Org
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 15:32:19 -0400
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Dear PLANS folks,
You guys seem to be fanning the flames of hysteria. There is a lot of good
in the Waldorf method as compared to
a typical public school, especially in their delay of teaching reading &
math. They begin by engaging young students in
symbolic learning, without forcing them to sit still and do rote drills. I
think that by 5th or 6th grade, it's pretty well accepted that
a rigidly orthodox Waldorf curriculum poops out.
I signed on to this list in hopes of seeing some criticism of Waldorf
Education as a method, say, as opposed to Montessori and others. Granted,
the Stiener cult is heir to the Madame Blavatsky way. But the Waldorf
schools have done a lot of good. It was only inevitable that in California,
the Waldorf schooling meme would get pulled into the general new-age
kookism that floats around and even hooks state funding there. The teaching
of anthrosophy should not be state funded any more than should parochial
schools, via vouchers. I am not interested in the NIMBY stuff, especially
getting new immigrants riled up about cults and the like. It's reminding me
of the false-memory child-molesting fiasco with those poor day-care
workers. That was in CA too, wasn't it?
But the core matter I'd like to see is what can be salvaged from the
Waldorf method and how can we learn to grow better children. Not SAT-score
generators, but integrated, moral people.
I did appreciate the stuff from Tom Mellett about the W.I. Thompson book.
Thompson's take seems just about right; Steiner was a little weird but he
was also a little right about many things. His FOLLOWERS may be gettin' a
little wacky now, but there are some good ideas in there to be leveraged.
More things on that level are appreciated.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n382.8 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and Belgiu
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 22:09:15 +0200 (MET DST)
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At 10:59 PM 4/5/97 +0100, you wrote:
)On 4 May 97 at 18:20, Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
)
)) Hello everybody! I am a new contributor to this list.
))=20
)) I mention news items from The Netherlands and Belgium.
))=20
)) On Friday, 9 May 1997, there will be a debate in Leeuwarden, The
)) Netherlands, on Anthroposophy and its links to medicine and education. It
)) will be in Theater Romein, Bagijnestraat 59; at 8 p.m. Organizers are the
)) Frysk Anty Fassisme Komitee, and SIMPOS (Foundation for Information on
)) Social Problems and Occult Tendencies).
)
)"Anti-Faschists" and "Foundation for Information etc. ..." ... In my=20
)translation this makes a bunch of people who think they know=20
)everything better.=20
Did you ever talk to any person of these organizations? Why would the Frysk
Anty Fassisme Komitee, and SIMPOS, even bother to have a debate, and invite
the local Waldorf school executive and other Anthroposophists, if they
really thought, as you say, )they know everything better?(
)Just one question: Don't you think the fact that most european right-wing,=
=20
)neo-faschist skinheads are favouring the Netherlands and Flanders to=20
)install their boot-camps has something to to with alledged sympathies=20
)of the population there?
I am not Dutch, so I cannot speak for )the population there(. In general, it
is nonsense to speak of whole 'nations' or 'races' as good guys or as bad
guys. An example is your reaction to Debby Snell's item on the California
constitution, which, according to you, proves that Californians are
collectively nuts. You really should not generalize in this way.
As for your questions on sympathies: at the last elections in The
Netherlands, the extreme right, calling itself Centrum Demokraten, got 2% of
the vote. This is certainly less than the Front National in France, or
National Aktion or similar parties in Switzerland. It is 2% too much,
however. And things can change fast. Hitler in the 1920's had also only 2%
of the vote in Germany.
As for these boot camps: please, send me all information on them which you
have, immediately. Then, I will be able to warn the police about them. The
police only very rarely allow meetings and demonstrations by the Centrum
Demokraten because of anti racist laws.
)If you tell, based on some dubious 90-100 years old transcripts from Rudolf
Steiner
Dubious transcripts? Don't you know that Helene Finckh, Steiner's
stenographer, was an accomplished professional? I refer you to the
Antroposophist Thomas H=F6fer, Der Hammer kreist, in Flensburger Hefte, Heft
41, p. 8ff. Thomas H=F6fer convincingly dismisses the dubious transcriptions
argument.
)that all antropospophs are faschists
I never wrote or said that, of course! So why are you putting up straw men
to knock them down?
)) First, the historian Herman de Tollenaere will speak. Then, three others
)) will join the debate: the doctor Wiebe Venema of the Anti-Quackery=
League;
)) and representatives of Waldorf education and Anthroposophical therapy.
))=20
)
)It seems to me that the historian in question is you, if so, I would=20
)be glad to get a transcription of your speech, just out of=20
)curiousity.
This would be useless; unless you can read Dutch.
)And I really wonder what an historian has to tell about=20
)anthroposophical medicine.
What did Rudolf Steiner have to tell about any medicine? Don't worry, I will
only discuss briefly some historical aspects of ideas, largely of
non-doctors, on medicine. The doctor Wiebe Venema of the Anti-Quackery
League, a participant in the debate, will certainly correct me if I make
medical mistakes.
)) ------------
)) From Belgium:
))=20
)) In May 1997, a committee of the Belgian parliament published a 700 page
)) report on cults (Dutch: 'sekten'). The parliamentary committee was formed
)) after the mass suicide and murder by the Order of the Solar Temple. One
)) Solar Temple leader, Jouret, was Belgian. The Solar Temple had links to=
the
)) extreme Right in Belgian politics.
)) The report mentions 189 'cults', including Anthroposophy.
)
)I would like to know in which _context_ anthroposophy was quoted!=20
)Could you provide some details, please.
I have not read the full report yet. From discussions on Belgian TV, it
appeared that the report listed all organizations about which parliamentary
committtee witnesses (mainly ex-members of the alleged cults) had made
complaints. A committee member for the Flemish Christian Democrats said that
it was a fact finding committee, not out, contrary to some interpretations
by opponents, to punish or to witch hunt anyone.
I have not heard yet about any reaction by Belgian Anthroposophists to the
report. In the TV debate, the Christian Democrat member faced three critics,
none of them Anthroposophists. One was of Opus Dei. He said: 'We are not a
cult and should not have been included'. The second one was a Scientologist.
He said: 'We are not a cult and should not have been included'. The third
one was an 'energy' therapist, accused of using psychiatric patients as
unpaid labour for his luxurious mansion. He said: 'We are not a cult and
should not have been included'.
=20
)) The Vlaams Blok, the party of the extreme Right, reacted to the report,
)) saying it feared an 'anti-cult witch hunt'. Reactions from Roman Catholic
)) leaders were divided. Some thought the ultra-conservative Catholic
)) organization Opus Dei should not have been included in the report.
))=20
)
)Certainly the first and last time I agree with those dumbheads of the=20
)Vlaams Blok.
The Solar Temple had links to the extreme right. This may perhaps explain
the reaction.
)The fact that a state-report in dark-black-catholic Belgium did dare=20
)to declare Opus Dei a cult surprises me. Then again I see this as an=20
)indicator that the commission included into their report any=20
)religious of philosophical movement in Belgium exept the mainstream=20
)catholic and protestant churches. No wonder antroposophy can be found=20
)in there among all others.
(Any movement)? No! Only those about which the committee received=
complaints.
)
)
)) -----------
)) Best wishes to everyone.
))=20
)
)Lurking anthroposophs included?
Why not? As long as they base themselves on research of facts, not on
dubious pseudo-science like the famous Akasha chronicle information on
'Aryans'. The Flensburger Hefte people are Anthroposophists. Yet, they do
not accept this kind of theory. At least one leader of one Dutch
Theosophical organization very recently stopped accepting Madame Blavatsky's
'Root Race' theories (an important influence on Steiner). The Theosophist
concerned wrote that reading publications by non-theosophist critics had
contributed to his change in views. Maybe in the future, others will draw
similar conclusions.
)
)
)Best wishes to all (really all, well, _some_ exceptions!)
)
)+peter+
)
)=20
)---------------------------------------
)Peter Schwab
)pschwab access.ch
)rte du Vanel 33, CH-2206 Les Geneveys-sur-Coffrane, Switzerland
)Voice: (++41) 032 / 857.16.72
)
)
Best wishes again,
Herman de Tollenaere
My new home page on the Internet http://stad.dsl.nl/~hermantl (So far, much
on Theosophy. Steiner mentioned in the context of Theosophical history)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n382.9 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Public Waldorf teacher training
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 19:33:19 -0700
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While Waldorf-inspired promoters claim that public Waldorf schools do not
violate church-state laws, documentation that I am receiving from public
teachers taking teacher training courses _designed_ for public schools
suggests otherwise.
Public school teacher's hand-outs from RS College include Steiner's
'Lecture II" Speech. A few quotes are irresistable:
"In the future all teaching must be founded on a real psychology - a
psychology which has been gained through an [A]nthroposophical knowledge of
the world."
"When we have thus clearly grasped that the activity of mental picturing is
of this image nature, we must next ask: [O]f what is it an image? Naturally
no outer science can tell us this, but only a science founded on
Anthroposophy.Mental picturing is an image of all of the experiences which
we go through before birth, or rather conception. You cannot arrive at a
true understanding of it unless it is clear to you that you have gone
through a life before birth, before conception. And just as ordinary mirror
images arise spatially as mirror images, so your life between death and
re-birth is reflected in your present life and this reflection is mental
picturing."
"Blood is a 'very special fluid.' For it is the fluid which would whirl
away as spirit if we were able to remove it from the human body so that it
still remained blood and was not destroyed by other physical agencies--an
impossibility while it is bound to earthly conditions."
More later, as time allows.
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n382.10 ---------------
From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 21:42:48 +0000
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On 5 May 97 at 15:32, Charlie_Ross Slf.Org wrote:
)There is a lot of good
) in the Waldorf method as compared to
) a typical public school, especially in their delay of teaching reading &
) math. They begin by engaging young students in
) symbolic learning, without forcing them to sit still and do rote drills. I
) think that by 5th or 6th grade, it's pretty well accepted that
) a rigidly orthodox Waldorf curriculum poops out.
Is it? I had not heard that. Well accepted by whom? Can you quote
some sources?
Is there another kind of Waldorf curriculum that is not so rigidly
orthodox? Where are these unorthodox Waldorf schools?
I really am interested in this.
) It was only inevitable that in California,
) the Waldorf schooling meme would get pulled into the general new-age
) kookism that floats around and even hooks state funding there. The teaching
) of anthrosophy should not be state funded any more than should parochial
) schools, via vouchers. I am not interested in the NIMBY stuff, especially
) getting new immigrants riled up about cults and the like. It's reminding me
) of the false-memory child-molesting fiasco with those poor day-care
) workers. That was in CA too, wasn't it?
Lots of things happen in California, Charlie. Many people live here.
Do you have any knowledge of what California is like, other than
a general impression that Californians are kooky?
Steve Premo
Santa Cruz, California
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n382 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n383 --------------
001 - levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk - Re: Science and Steiner
002 - levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk - religion
003 - James Souttar (ancient ur - criticism of Waldorf Education as a method
004 - Steve Premo (premo cruzio - Re: Science and Steiner
005 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
006 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - for immediate release
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n383.1 ---------------
From: levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk)
Subject: Re: Science and Steiner
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 08:30:26 +0100 (BST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII"
In-Reply-To: (199705050734.AAA17666 lists1.best.com)
Total dynamite - but still religious. This is simply applying your own
logic.
On Mon, 5 May 1997, Daniel Sabsay wrote:
) Hi Dan,
)
) [snip wonderful stuff]
)
) )Science and religion are not equivalent belief systems. Science restricts
) )itself to testable statements about the physical universe. Mature religions
) )restrict themselves to untestable concepts (metaphysics) about unseen
) )worlds and ultimate causes. Anthroposophy is young, a cult in the process
) )of becoming a religion, and hasn't worked these contradictions out yet.
)
) Total dynamite.
)
) -- Daniel
)
) Daniel Sabsay home.earthlink.net/~danielsabsay/ebss
) Macintosh Consultant Ignorance is the Ultimate Renewable Resource
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n383.2 ---------------
From: levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk)
Subject: religion
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 08:36:45 +0100 (BST)
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I will make this comment once more:
If you define science as a set of activities based around the testing
(through logical methods and deduction) of repeatable physical phenomena,
and then relegate all other methods, ideas e.t.c. to being "religious",
then, until you can validate the thought process that arrived at that
hypothesis using scientific methods, then you are also making a religious
statement.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n383.3 ---------------
From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: criticism of Waldorf Education as a method
Date: Tue, 6 May 97 16:07:01 +0100
Charlie:
)I signed on to this list in hopes of seeing some criticism of
)Waldorf Education as a method, say, as opposed to Montessori and
)others.
There has been surprisingly little criticism of WE on *educational
grounds* on this list - almost all other grounds, yes. I'd agree that
one of the most compelling attractions of WE is that it just *works*.
And this is against the background of more conventional educational
offerings becoming increasingly dysfunctional.
One of the biggest differences between Waldorf Education and
education based on the Piagetian model is that WE is *actively
mediated*. The teacher is the focus of the learning experience in the
Waldorf classroom - role model, guide, friend. For Piaget, the
teacher was to be merely a facilitator - some kind of experimenter
who could step back at the soonest moment and leave the rats to it.
It's interesting to see what the post-Piagetians have done with this
legacy. For Papert, it appears to be a case taking the guru's methods
to the extreme - the teacher almost disappearing in favour of the
computer as facilitator/rat-maze rolled into one. But for Feurstein -
whose insights, like Steiner's, came through observation of the child
with severe learning difficulties - there seems to be an almost total
rejection of the Piagetian model.
James
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n383.4 ---------------
From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Science and Steiner
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 09:48:52 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199705050734.AAA17666 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199705060731.AAA04945 lists1.best.com)
On 6 May 97 , levy wrote:
) Total dynamite - but still religious. This is simply applying your own
) logic.
)
) Dan Dugan wrote:
) )
) ) )Science and religion are not equivalent belief systems. Science restricts
) ) )itself to testable statements about the physical universe. Mature religions
) ) )restrict themselves to untestable concepts (metaphysics) about unseen
) ) )worlds and ultimate causes. Anthroposophy is young, a cult in the process
) ) )of becoming a religion, and hasn't worked these contradictions out yet.
Well, you can certainly define religion in such a way as to include
science, and can define science in such a way as to include anthroposophy,
but what's the point? It makes more sense to use the terms in the ways
they are generally understood; then we can all talk about the same thing.
Steve Premo
Santa Cruz, California
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n383.5 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 20:25:09 -0700
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Here's another quote which couldn't be more explicit (I love it when
Anthroposophists try to explain things away by saying that Steiner is being
metaphorical). This is from a book that all Waldorf teacher trainees must
study.
"Although physiology believes it has discovered a truth when it talks of
sensory and motor nerves, it is nevertheless only playing with words. Motor
nerves are spoken of because of the fact that when certain nerves are
injured, i.e. those which go to the legs, a man cannot walk when he wants
to do so. It is said that he cannot walk because he has injured the nerves
which, as motor nerves, set the leg in motion. In reality the reason why he
cannot walk is that he has no perception of his own legs. This age in which
we live has been obliged to entangle itself in a mass of errors, so that,
through having to disentangle ourselves from them, we may become
independent human beings."
[Steiner, Rudolf. Study of Man: General Education Course: Fourteen Lectures
given by Rudolf Steiner in Stuttgart 21st August-5th September 1919.
(1919) Trans. Daphne Harwood and Helen Fox. London: Rudolf Steiner Press,
1960, p. 35.]
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n383.6 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: for immediate release
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 20:25:02 -0700
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PEOPLE FOR LEGAL AND NON-SECTARIAN SCHOOLS
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - MAY 6, 1997
Contact:
Debra Snell, President, (916) 273-1005 snell oro.net
Dan Dugan, Secretary, (415) 821-9776 plans dandugan.com
Web site: http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools (PLANS) will present a
multi-lingual version of their lecture "Why Waldorf Programs are Unsuitable
for Public Funding" for parents of Oak Ridge Elementary School on
Wednesday, May 7, at about 5:45 PM at the St. Paul Missionary Baptist
Church, 3996 14th Ave., Sacramento. The meeting will start when parents
arrive after a 4:30-5:30 meeting with Interim Superintendent Sweeney at the
school. The talk by Dan Dugan, formerly a parent at the San Francisco
Waldorf School, is based on slides of selections from Waldorf movement
publications.
The meeting was called after teachers at the school contacted PLANS. The
Oak Ridge Elementary School converted to a "Waldorf Method" program in
September of 1996. A third of the teachers at the school are transferring
because they do not support the Waldorf curriculum, and they are offended
by the religious content of the Waldorf training that they have been
required to take.
PLANS president Debra Snell asserts that "Waldorf education is a missionary
activity of Anthroposophy, a cult-like religious sect. We have
documentation to support this allegation."
PLANS board member Dr. James Morton Jr. said "The entire concept of Waldorf
education is based on the metaphysical/religious beliefs and teachings of
Rudolf Steiner. These metaphysical/religious beliefs and teachings cannot
be separated from the nature, essence and methodology of Waldorf
education." [1]
Other school districts have avoided entanglement with Waldorf. St. Cloud,
Minnesota rejected a proposal because "The spiritual philosophy behind
Waldorf schools could not be separated from its educational components."[2]
When the Anchorage, Alaska, school board rejected a Waldorf program, the
superintendent said "district staff have been informed that anthroposophy
is a fundamental part of the teacher training program which develops the
instructors for the program."[3]
In his lecture, Dan Dugan will point out the overwhelmingly religious
content of the teacher training program at Rudolf Steiner College. The
Sacramento school district is using a $100,000 Federal grant to pay for
this training.
Notes:
[1] Opening remarks, Town Hall Meeting radio broadcast, Nevada City CA,
4/17/97. Dr. Morton is Pastor of First Baptist Church, Grass Valley, CA.
[2] Tonsall, Sonseeahray. "Waldorf program rejected by board." St. Cloud
Times, Nov. 11, 1994.
[3] Shinohara, Rosemary. "Arts School debate takes religious turn."
Anchorage Daily News, January 13, 1994, p. B-1.
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n383 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n384 --------------
001 - James Souttar (ancient ur - Re: Science and Steiner
002 - Charlie_Ross Slf.Org - Re: kookism
003 - James Souttar (ancient ur - Re: for immediate release
004 - Steve Premo (premo cruzio - Re: kookism
005 - JoAnn Schwartz (jms mich. - Re: kookism
006 - mckay oro.net - Re: criticism of Waldorf Education as a method
007 - mckay oro.net - Re: Oak Ridge
008 - mckay oro.net - Re: religion
009 - mckay oro.net - Re: kookism
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n384.1 ---------------
From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Science and Steiner
Date: Wed, 7 May 97 13:31:09 +0100
Dan:
)The founder of Waldorf education, Rudolf Steiner, held forth not
)only as a spiritual leader but as an authority on anything his
)gullible followers wanted to hear about. This included scientific
)subjects, and you will see Steiner described as a "scientist" in
)Anthroposophical literature. His scientific qualifications were
)limited to editing Goethe's writings on science, which have never
)been considered, then or now, as scientific, and some high-school
)level teaching.
According to Arthur Zajonc - who *is* a *real* scientist (Professor
of Physics at Amherst College) - Steiner studied mathematics, physics
and chemistry at the Vienna Technical University (then the MIT of
Central Europe). As a postgraduate, he went on to earn a Ph.D in
Philosophy. And far from his 'scientific qualifications' being
*limited* to 'editing Goethe's writings on science' it was *because*
he had proved to be such an exemplary student - with a grasp of both
Natural Science and Philosophy - that he was chosen to participate in
the prestigious national edition of Goethe's work. To get a sense of
what this meant in the German speaking world, consider an unknown
twentysomething grad student being preferred - above all the eminent
professors of literature - to edit Shakespeare.
Before we can have a serious critical debate, let's get the facts
straight!
James
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n384.2 ---------------
From: Charlie_Ross Slf.Org
Subject: Re: kookism
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:49:49 -0400
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((( Snip from Steve Premo's response to my response)))
)) I think that by 5th or 6th grade, it's pretty well accepted that
)) a rigidly orthodox Waldorf curriculum poops out.
)Is it? I had not heard that. Well accepted by whom? Can you quote
)some sources?
)Is there another kind of Waldorf curriculum that is not so rigidly
orthodox? Where are these unorthodox Waldorf schools?
)I really am interested in this.
Sorry, I was meaning "accepted" in a statistical, not "papers by experts"
way. As a parent unscientifically
looking for a Waldorf school for my preschooler in Northern NJ and then in
Cincinnati OH, I found the
enrollment of students in these schools to taper off as grade levels go up.
This would indicate to me that parents
like the nurturing and bi-ligual environment of a Waldorf elementary school
but once basic skills are instilled, the
bad science and odd gnosticism being taught starts to stand out in relief.
Please name more than 10 Waldorf high schools
as a counterexample to this. I actually only heard of one possible
secondary Waldorf school in the US when I was looking.
I did not mean to diss California. I just meant that if you want to see
some extreme aspect of any
belief system or idea played out in living color, California is the place
ya oughta be.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n384.3 ---------------
From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: for immediate release
Date: Wed, 7 May 97 16:13:49 +0100
)PLANS board member Dr. James Morton Jr. said "The entire concept of
)Waldorf education is based on the metaphysical/religious beliefs and
)teachings of Rudolf Steiner. These metaphysical/religious beliefs
)and teachings cannot be separated from the nature, essence and
)methodology of Waldorf education."
Who says they cannot be separated? Has anyone actually tried?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n384.4 ---------------
From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: kookism
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 13:25:06 +0000
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On 7 May 97 , Charlie_Ross Slf.Org wrote:
) )) I think that by 5th or 6th grade, it's pretty well accepted that
) )) a rigidly orthodox Waldorf curriculum poops out.
)
) )Is it? I had not heard that. Well accepted by whom? Can you quote
) )some sources?
)
) Sorry, I was meaning "accepted" in a statistical, not "papers by experts"
) way. As a parent unscientifically looking for a Waldorf school for my
) preschooler in Northern NJ and then in Cincinnati OH, I found the enrollment
) of students in these schools to taper off as grade levels go up. This would
) indicate to me that parents like the nurturing and bi-ligual environment of
) a Waldorf elementary school but once basic skills are instilled, the bad
) science and odd gnosticism being taught starts to stand out in relief.
Possibly. There are other possibilities as well. First, it may be that
as the schools mature, they become more popular, attracting successively
larger beginning classes.
Second, because of the way the schools operate, and particularly because
they keep the same teacher with the same class from year to year, it may
be that people are more likely to choose Waldorf for a child beginning
school than for an older child, who would be coming into an established
class as a stranger. Also, parents of older kids might feel that changing
to a Waldorf school would require more of an adjustment than changing to a
more mainstream school. Thus, as people move to new cities and so on,
more people will be taking their kids out of Waldorf than will be putting
older kids into Waldorf.
Third, it may be true of private schools in general that the higher grades
are usually smaller, because after paying $5,000 a year per child for
private school for a few years, public schools start to look more
attractive after all.
Or, as you say, it may be that parents become disenchanted with the
schools as their kids get into higher grades.
Of course, the "bad science and odd gnosticism" is not supposed to be
taught at all, but sometimes it is. I don't know how widespread this
problem is. There are some on this list who would say it is rampant;
others would say it is rare.
Steve Premo
Santa Cruz, California
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n384.5 ---------------
From: JoAnn Schwartz (jms mich.com)
Subject: Re: kookism
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 17:29:24 -0400 (EDT)
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In-Reply-To: (199705071451.HAA26719 lists1.best.com)
On Wed, 7 May 1997 Charlie_Ross Slf.Org wrote:
[snip]
) As a parent unscientifically
) looking for a Waldorf school for my preschooler in Northern NJ and then in
) Cincinnati OH, I found the
) enrollment of students in these schools to taper off as grade levels go up.
) This would indicate to me that parents
) like the nurturing and bi-ligual environment of a Waldorf elementary school
) but once basic skills are instilled, the
) bad science and odd gnosticism being taught starts to stand out in relief.
I can think of lots of other reasons why enrollment in the upper grades
goes down. Thinking of families I know who have left the school:
One family moved to Cleveland, another to Chicago
The oldest child in the family goes on to a private high school that
also includes the lower grades, so younger child is transferred to cut
down on family commuting time (many of our families travel 45 minutes or
more one way to get to the school, and when the older child's school is 45
minutes the other way...)
Family circumstances changed and the tuition at a private, independent
school became too much of a burden (they moved to the suburbs to get
decent public ed. or decided on a church school)
What seemed possible for one or two children became less possible with
(perhaps unexpected) additional children
Family decided to enroll in a Waldorf-inspired charter school (five
children in my daughter's class left for this reason, by January, all but
one child was back at Detroit WS (the private WS))
Children are less likely to join a class in the upper grades, and
faculty are more reluctant to add students in 7th and 8th grades
I'm sure there are lots more reasons. I have not personally met anyone who
left the school because they were unsatisfied with the academics. (I
concede that there may be some out there.) And yes, I am frequently in
contact with the parents of children who leave because my daughter will
not give up seeing friends just because they go to a new school!
Warmly,
JoAnn Schwartz, Detroit Waldorf School parent
(jms mich.com) Detroit MI USA
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n384.6 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: criticism of Waldorf Education as a method
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 21:04:19 +0100
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)Charlie:
)
))I signed on to this list in hopes of seeing some criticism of
))Waldorf Education as a method, say, as opposed to Montessori and
))others.
)James:
)There has been surprisingly little criticism of WE on *educational
)grounds* on this list
Well, either we've been reading two different WC Lists, or James hasn't
been reading this list for very long. A good portion of past posts (check
the archives) have been "criticism of WE on *educational grounds*", THAT
is exactly what started this list and what most of the critics have posted
about.
James:
) - almost all other grounds, yes. I'd agree that
)one of the most compelling attractions of WE is that it just *works*.
It just *doesn't work* would be more accurate. The WE teaching
methodology and presentation by barely qualified people whom tout
themselves as the best, highly trained teachers is pure deception and
wrong. Many *documented* inadequicies have been posted on this list,
again check the archives.
James:
)And this is against the background of more conventional educational
)offerings becoming increasingly dysfunctional.
Please show us some proof that "more conventional ed. .... dysfunctional".
The level of attention being given and implemented to have an improved
educational system nation wide for the last ten years is working. With
the very loud cry from parents in past years for a *voucher" system and the
introduction of Charter Laws in at least 15 states now, the level of
competition for better Public Education is *waking up* main stream Ed
Systems. All the things that WE braggs about being (and isn't) are being
done in lots of Public schools now.
)James:
)One of the biggest differences between Waldorf Education and
)education based on the Piagetian model is that WE is *actively
)mediated*. The teacher is the focus of the learning experience in the
)Waldorf classroom - role model, guide, friend. For Piaget, the
)teacher was to be merely a facilitator - some kind of experimenter
)who could step back at the soonest moment and leave the rats to it.
Hog wash! Of course, what would you expect from someone who refers to
children as "rats"?!
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n384.7 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:07:02 +0100
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On Monday, 5/5/97, Charlie Ross wrote;
)Dear PLANS folks,
)
)You guys seem to be fanning the flames of hysteria. There is a lot of good
)in the Waldorf method as compared to
)a typical public school, especially in their delay of teaching reading &
)math.
All current studies of brain development in the young child from birth to
age ten show just the opposite of your statement above. The newest
discoveries in neuroscience is the finding that the electrical activity of
brain cells changes the physical structure of the brain. The rhythmic
firing of neurons is no longer assumed to be a by-product of building the
brain, but essential to the process. This process also drives the
explotion of learning that occurs immediately after birth, and continues to
produce trillions of connections between neurons than the brain can
possibly use. Through a process that resembles Darwinian competition, the
brain eliminates connections that are seldom or never used. Deprived of a
stimulating environment, a childs brain suffers. These new insights have
begun to varify the need for early education and what and how preschool
programs are designed. Many child-development experts recommend the need
to design preschool programs to boost the brain power of youngsters born
into impoverished rural and inner-city households. They warn that without
such programs, the current drive to curtail welfare costs by pushing
mothers with infants and toddlers into the work force may well backfire.
Frank Newman, president of the Education Commision of the States said,
"there is a time scale to brain development, and the most important year is
the first". By the age of three, a child who is neglected or abused bears
marks that, if not indelible, are exceedingly difficult to erase. The
window of opportunity in brain development for developing language and
acquiring syntax may close as early as five or six years old, yet the
window for learning new words may never close. The ability to learn a
second language is highest between birth and the age of six.
Neuroscientists have now confirmed that the brain's greatest growth spurt
draws to a close around the age of 10, when the balance between synapse
creation and atrophy abruptly shifts. Over the next several years the
brain will destroy the weak, less or unused connections, and preserve only
the ones that have been transformed by experience. Psychiatrists and
educators have always recognized the value of early experience, but their
observations have until now been largely ancedotal. Modern neuroscience is
providing the hard, quantifiable evidence that was missing before, through
the results under a microsope or in a PET scan. These new discoveries
clearly show that foreign languages should be taught in elementary school,
if not before, and that remedial education may be more effective at the age
of 3 or 4 than at 9 or 10.
Charlie:
)They begin by engaging young students in
)symbolic learning, without forcing them to sit still and do rote drills. I
I've seen plenty of WE teachers forcing their students to sit still and do
*rote copying* of information off the black board in those oh so bragged
about main lesson books the children supposedly create on there own.
)I signed on to this list in hopes of seeing some criticism of Waldorf
)Education as a method, say, as opposed to Montessori and others. Granted,
)the Stiener cult is heir to the Madame Blavatsky way.
Well maybe you should referance the archives and you will see there has
been plenty of what you are looking for there.
Charlie:
)But the Waldorf
)schools have done a lot of good. It was only inevitable that in California,
)the Waldorf schooling meme would get pulled into the general new-age
)kookism that floats around and even hooks state funding there.
You are mistaken that only in California the Waldorf schooling would get
pulled into the gen. new-age kookism. WE owned that shingle long before it
ever arrived here in this state.
Charlie:
)The teaching
)of anthrosophy should not be state funded any more than should parochial
)schools, via vouchers. I am not interested in the NIMBY stuff, especially
)getting new immigrants riled up about cults and the like. It's reminding me
)of the false-memory child-molesting fiasco with those poor day-care
)workers. That was in CA too, wasn't it?
You are right in the fact that Anthroposophy shouldn't be state funded, but
I'm confused by your contridicting observation and then opinion about the
NIMBY stuff, and the false-memory stuff. Keeping your head in the sand is
your right, but then why show concern?
)Charlie:
)But the core matter I'd like to see is what can be salvaged from the
)Waldorf method and how can we learn to grow better children. Not SAT-score
)generators, but integrated, moral people.
This is a good question and one that WE supporters would say is futile, as
only *pure* WE can do the children any good. I don't believe that for a
split second. Yes, there are some aspects of WE that have merit, but most
have to do with things like kindness, and I see plenty of that in
mainstream schools, or... I really can't think of anything that WE has
a corner on over other educational systems other than deception and denial.
)Charle:
)I did appreciate the stuff from Tom Mellett about the W.I. Thompson book.
)Thompson's take seems just about right; Steiner was a little weird but he
)was also a little right about many things. His FOLLOWERS may be gettin' a
)little wacky now, but there are some good ideas in there to be leveraged.
Go back into the archives and see if there are some posts by Dr Mollet,
they are very insightfull about the dogma within the governing bodies for
"official" Waldorf Education. You don't need WE to be creative, look at
what's needed to make something better or to offer different educational
ideas to our children. In fact the further one stays from the Waldorf
World, the greater piece of mind one will have.
)Charlie:
)More things on that level are appreciated.
Hope this was that level you were looking for,
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n384.8 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: religion
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:07:00 +0100
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levy:
)I will make this comment once more:
Is this a promise?
)levy:
)If you define science as a set of activities based around the testing
)(through logical methods and deduction) of repeatable physical phenomena,
)and then relegate all other methods, ideas e.t.c. to being "religious",
)then, until you can validate the thought process that arrived at that
)hypothesis using scientific methods, then you are also making a religious
)statement.
I worked as a volunteer at the HEALING ARTS convention in Scottsdale, Az.
for several years. It was put on by the Edgar Caycey Foundation for the
purpose of furthering both scientific and non-scientific research. So the
conference had everything from the newest medical practises and research,
to the most *out there* new-age practices. Quite interesting to say the
least! My job was to do mono recordings of the lectures/seminars and then
make hi-speed duplicates to have for sell as the attendees came out of the
presentation. What this is leading to is an answer to the above statement
about "validate the thought process...". The level of repeatable research
on the thought process and the brain is very well known. I watched at the
time (ten years ago), medical equipment made to exercise brains that were
damaged either at birth or in some kind of accident. The process used a
video screen and the patient was hooked up to this and some kind of
computer with wires coming from various parts of the head/skull. the
patient would then *think* about making a bar graph move up the video
screen. With continued practise, the patient could get the bar to go to
the top, all with thoughts. What this was doing was *exercising* parts of
the brain that had atrophied from non use or been damaged in some way. So
the thought process can be validated in this and I'm sure many other
scientific ways, none of witch are anywhere close to being "religious
statement[s]".
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n384.9 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: kookism
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:06:57 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
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)((( Snip from Steve Premo's response to my response)))
)
))) I think that by 5th or 6th grade, it's pretty well accepted that
))) a rigidly orthodox Waldorf curriculum poops out.
)
))Is it? I had not heard that. Well accepted by whom? Can you quote
))some sources?
)
))Is there another kind of Waldorf curriculum that is not so rigidly
)orthodox? Where are these unorthodox Waldorf schools?
)
))I really am interested in this.
)
)Sorry, I was meaning "accepted" in a statistical, not "papers by experts"
)way. As a parent unscientifically
)looking for a Waldorf school for my preschooler in Northern NJ and then in
)Cincinnati OH, I found the
)enrollment of students in these schools to taper off as grade levels go up.
) This would indicate to me that parents
)like the nurturing and bi-ligual environment of a Waldorf elementary school
What do you mean by "bi-ligual environment"?
) but once basic skills are instilled, the
)bad science and odd gnosticism being taught starts to stand out in relief.
Both JoAnn and Steve P. put forth very common reasons for the upper grades
decline in WE.
One other one not brought up is *teacher burn-out*. I have met *very* few
WE teachers who can carry a class from 1st to 8th grade, most seem to get
in over their heads from not having specific experience with all the
different age related needs of the students as well as not having the
educational training for ALL those grades. An analogy could be the
difference between a motorcycle made for road riding and one made for off
road riding, both being very specific for their respective usage, then
there are the "combination" road/dirt bikes that are OK on and off the
road, but really not very good at either. So what I see over and over
again is WE teachers that have that very limited and specialized WE teacher
training that is a TWO YEAR training in the life and times of Rudolf
Steiner and Anthroposophy with some made up ways to judge, classify and
teach our children, very inadequate training, let alone enough to be able
to carry a class thru all eight grades. I also feel that all the warm,
soft and fairy stuff is great for the lower grades (especially girls), but
doesn't speak to the older kids (especially boys).
David McKay
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n384 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n385 --------------
001 - James Souttar (ancient ur - Re: kookism
002 - Charlie_Ross Slf.Org - Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay, early learning
003 - James Souttar (ancient ur - Re: criticism of Waldorf Education as a method
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n385.1 ---------------
From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: kookism
Date: Thu, 8 May 97 13:34:35 +0100
Charlie:
)Sorry, I was meaning "accepted" in a statistical, not "papers by
)experts" way. As a parent unscientifically looking for a Waldorf
)school for my preschooler in Northern NJ and then in Cincinnati OH,
)I found the enrollment of students in these schools to taper off as
)grade levels go up.
Something that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that the 'class
teacher' years go from 6 to 14. When Steiner was asked to set up the
school at the Waldorf Astoria cigarette factory, the general school
leaving age would have been 14. Since then, leaving ages have crept
up (in the UK it went up to 15 after 1945 - and then more recently
increased to 16). Presumably the situation is much the same
Stateside.
This means that the key 'block' of WE doesn't dovetail neatly into
conventional educational transitions (here age 11 to public secondary
school or age 13 to private secondary school). It also means that
Waldorf isn't particularly strong with post-14s - exacerbated by the
fact that by this age adolescents need to be following an 'approved'
curriculum if they are to compete in national examinations.
)This would indicate to me that parents like the nurturing and
)bi-ligual environment of a Waldorf elementary school but once basic
)skills are instilled, the bad science and odd gnosticism being
)taught starts to stand out in relief.
As Steve says, the 'odd gnosticism' isn't supposed to be taught. As
for 'bad science', it all depends on what you mean by 'bad'. At that
point (circa 14 years) in conventional education, the increased level
of mathematization in science subjects results in fewer and fewer
students taking it to advanced level - a situation that has reached
crisis point here in the UK (it also seems to contribute to science
options becoming a big turn-off for girls, too). The Waldorf approach
to science (and indeed mathematics) does seem to prevent this early
bifurcation into (what C P Snow famously defined as) the 'two
cultures'.
James
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n385.2 ---------------
From: Charlie_Ross Slf.Org
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay, early learning
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:58:41 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Snippet - My words:
)) There is a lot of good
))in the Waldorf method as compared to
))a typical public school, especially in their delay of teaching reading &
))math.
((David's response
All current studies of brain development in the young child from birth to
age ten show just the opposite of your statement above. The newest
discoveries in neuroscience is the finding that... ...(on to Darwinian
neurosynaptical myelinization pontifications)... ))
Umm...
No, I did NOT say it's good to stifle early language (elsewhere I
misspelled "bi-lingual" by the way)
and other symbolic teaching. WE _delays_ reading and arithmetic pedagogy
specifically and there
have been findings among "current" researchers that this is a good thing,
children are just not ready to sit still
and focus their eyes on a text-heavy book until maybe age 8 or 9. The other
very good things WE does
are teaching a second language and lots of music work. These have BOTH been
found to be extremely
beneficial to young students.
As examples of what we should _not_ want our students to end up like as a
result of excessive
early reading and math training, I give you William Sidis and Mr. Ted
Unabomber. On the other hand, I
agree with Robert Coles that children must be read TO and must be
encouraged to look at and page through
picture books as early as possible. They must learn that their parents love
to read and that reading is kewl.
So how do we separate the good stuff from the cultism that the PLANS people
fixate on? That's what I want to know.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n385.3 ---------------
From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: criticism of Waldorf Education as a method
Date: Thu, 8 May 97 17:08:02 +0100
David:
)A good portion of past posts (check the archives) have been
)"criticism of WE on *educational grounds*", THAT is exactly what
)started this list and what most of the critics have posted about.
I've not seen anyone among the critics make a *substantive criticism*
of WE on educational grounds either in a recent post or in the
archive. But, in case I've missed it, perhaps you'd be good enough to
set out the objections to Waldorf on pedagogical grounds?
James
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n385 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n386 --------------
001 - mckay oro.net - Re: criticism of Waldorf Education as a method
002 - mckay oro.net - Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay, early learning
003 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay, early learning
004 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay, early learning
005 - wrensong monitor.net - Child psychology/spiritual training in WE
006 - wrensong monitor.net - Child psychology/spiritual training in WE
007 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - (from Caldwell) Re: Jim Caldwell comment on web site
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n386.1 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: criticism of Waldorf Education as a method
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:59:18 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)David:
)
))A good portion of past posts (check the archives) have been
))"criticism of WE on *educational grounds*", THAT is exactly what
))started this list and what most of the critics have posted about.
)James:
)I've not seen anyone among the critics make a *substantive criticism*
)of WE on educational grounds either in a recent post or in the
)archive.
More Waldorf baiting. James, I don't care to waste my time or yours, when
it is obvious that no matter what *substantive criticism* that's put forth
on this list goes in one ear and out the other (or is that one eye and out
the other?).
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n386.2 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay, early learning
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:59:14 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Charlie, it's McKay, not mackay, thankyou for future proper spelling.
On 5/9/97, Charlie responded:
)Snippet - My words:
))) There is a lot of good
)))in the Waldorf method as compared to
)))a typical public school, especially in their delay of teaching reading &
)))math.
)
)((David's response
)
)All current studies of brain development in the young child from birth to
)age ten show just the opposite of your statement above. The newest
)discoveries in neuroscience is the finding that... ...(on to Darwinian
)neurosynaptical myelinization pontifications)... ))
)
)Umm...
)
)No, I did NOT say it's good to stifle early language (elsewhere I
)misspelled "bi-lingual" by the way)
)and other symbolic teaching. WE _delays_ reading and arithmetic pedagogy
)specifically and there
)have been findings among "current" researchers that this is a good thing,
)children are just not ready to sit still
)and focus their eyes on a text-heavy book until maybe age 8 or 9. The other
Learning to read does not require "text-heavy" books.
Charlie:
)very good things WE does
)are teaching a second language and lots of music work. These have BOTH been
)found to be extremely
)beneficial to young students.
The methods for teaching a second language by WE teachers that I have seen
over the last nine years leaves a lot to be desired. The children are not
taught *what* they are saying, but only memorizing foreign words. When I
have asked my children and others how they like the Spanish or German they
are learning they have always said it is there least favorite subject
because they don't understand what they are doing or saying. The method is
so superficial as to be a waste of time.
)Charlie:
)As examples of what we should _not_ want our students to end up like as a
)result of excessive
)early reading and math training, I give you William Sidis and Mr. Ted
)Unabomber.
This is a very POOR example that has NOTHING to do with either early
reading or math training. These sick people you mention have mental
illnesses that are separate from their IQ's. You conveniently didn't list
the thousands and thousands of great and everyday people whom have had the
same early training and have contributed very positive ideas and deeds to
human kind.
Charlie:
)On the other hand, I
)agree with Robert Coles that children must be read TO and must be
)encouraged to look at and page through
)picture books as early as possible. They must learn that their parents love
)to read and that reading is kewl.
Any aware and involved parent would know this. You don't need WE to do
this. What is "kewl"?
)Charlie:
)So how do we separate the good stuff from the cultism that the PLANS people
)fixate on? That's what I want to know.
As I said in the post that you have just responded to, "You don't need WE
to be creative, [or] look at what's needed to make something better or to
offer different educational ideas to our children." As to "separating"
the good stuff from the bad, I don't think it's worth the effort. It
would be like starting with an old beat up car and trying to make it new,
might as well start from scratch with fresh materials and really make
something nice. You are naive to think you can work with
WE/Anthroposophists and remove the religious/cult/fake science/dogma. So
to work with what's left doesn't require even considering WE, as I have
stated above.
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n386.3 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay, early learning
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 13:45:32 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199705091400.HAA19906 lists1.best.com)
Someone wrote,
)So how do we separate the good stuff from the cultism that the PLANS people
)fixate on? That's what I want to know.
Throw out the word Waldorf and design a new curriculum. Waldorf does not
hold the patent on integrated education. Music and art infusion, creation
of _original_ (verses copied, like Waldorf) text books, teaching in blocks
and other positive aspects of WE _do_ happen in some public schools.
Take these aspects that _are_ attractive and write a curriculum. Void the
Anthroposophical "world-view"/religion that affects _every_ lesson taught
in WE, teach _real_ science, _real_ child development models (not based on
religious beliefs like reincarnation), teach a full spectrum of history
(not based on a theosophical world view) complete with commerce, and I'd be
interested. The "W" word in any form equates to pseudo education, IMNSHO,
naturally.
Additionally, promoting Waldorf schools' as "Non-Sectarian" is a fraudulent
statement that I believe the Steiner College should be held fully
accountable for, especially when it comes to their programs designed for
public school teachers. As a taxpayer, I want my money back!!
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n386.4 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay, early learning
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:07:42 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199705091400.HAA19906 lists1.best.com)
Charlie_Ross Slf.Org says:
)Snippet - My words:
))) There is a lot of good
)))in the Waldorf method as compared to
)))a typical public school, especially in their delay of teaching reading &
)))math.
)
)((David's [McKay] response
)
)All current studies of brain development in the young child from birth to
)age ten show just the opposite of your statement above. The newest
)discoveries in neuroscience is the finding that... ...(on to Darwinian
)neurosynaptical myelinization pontifications)... ))
ROSS replies to McKay:
)Umm...
)
)No, I did NOT say it's good to stifle early language (elsewhere I
)misspelled "bi-lingual" by the way)
)and other symbolic teaching. WE _delays_ reading and arithmetic pedagogy
)specifically and there
)have been findings among "current" researchers that this is a good thing,
^^^^^^^^
KOPP says:
Please cite these research "findings". I'm unaware of any such. Except
perhaps anecdotal "evidence" from the Steiner/Waldorf/Anthroposophical
crowd itself, which is non-scientific and nothing but self-validating
wish-fulfilment.
(The only "research" I've seen here from the Stein/Dorf/Pop defenders was
some loose, personal data from Stephen Tonkin about success rates in
further schooling for Steiner/Dorf-educated kids. Nothing about the
pedagogy itself.)
ROSS continues:
)children are just not ready to sit still
)and focus their eyes on a text-heavy book until maybe age 8 or 9.
KOPP says:
Rubbish. Tell that to the kids who pore over books and beg their parents to
teach them how to read the words at younger than age five, sometimes down
to age three or less, or who simply teach themselves how to read. Granted,
many of these kids are brighter than most, but that's not to say that only
exceptional children want to or can learn to read at a young age.
There is no scientific evidence for the Steiner/Waldorf/Anthroposophical
view that children are not cognitively or physically capable of reading or
learning before certain ages. (Not able to focus their eyes, indeed!)
The Stein/Dorf/Pop practices are based on the mystical spiritualism of
their founder, whose "received wisdom" is perpetuated through the slavish
cultism of the movement.
The worst affront to reason of the Stein/Dorf/Pop cult is that it believes
that early intellectual development can somehow damage children spiritually
and even physically later in life. THIS occultism is the reason
Stein/Dorf/Pop shackles children to self-denial of their innate tendencies
to learn early and rapidly.
ROSS continues:
)The other
)very good things WE does
)are teaching a second language and lots of music work. These have BOTH been
)found to be extremely
)beneficial to young students.
KOPP says:
Okay, so there's a few things about the method which are beneficial.
Neither of these validate the entirety of the Stein/Dorf/Pop weirdness that
is perpetrated on unsuspecting parents and helpless children. Both of these
activities have long been recognised by orthodox educationalists, and are
practiced in most educational systems. And, as McKay said in his original
post, REAL scientific research is showing that kids can learn more at an
earlier age than ever believed.
ROSS continues:
)As examples of what we should _not_ want our students to end up like as a
)result of excessive
)early reading and math training, I give you William Sidis and Mr. Ted
)Unabomber. On the other hand, I
)agree with Robert Coles that children must be read TO and must be
)encouraged to look at and page through
)picture books as early as possible. They must learn that their parents love
)to read and that reading is kewl.
KOPP says:
Yeah, and for every pathological jerk who developed early or was forced to,
I can give you another whose life was a shining beacon. Cf. John Stuart
Mill, whose father forced him not only to read English at an early age, but
classical Greek and Latin as well -- before age three.
I am not a fan of forcing children to learn. (Mill's life was not exactly
paradise on Earth. But he became a shining beacon, not a pathological
killer.) In fact one of the reasons our family came to a Steiner school was
just to reduce the pressure and allow them to relax a bit from the rat race.
Unfortunately, they were forced to relax so much by the Stein/Dorf/Pop
method that their intellectual development and actual knowledge-for-age
level has stagnated. And at the same time, they were exposed to the loopy
weirdness of Anthroposophy in all areas of their curriculum.
All this was done in a seemingly warm and caring environment that is
actually as rigidly authoritarian (for example, in the matter of parroting
what the teacher says and writes) as any cult or mind-control method. The
Steiner slogan here is "Through love to freedom", but the only freedom I
see is freedom to argue within the belief system. I don't see graduates
being able to think outside that envelope.
What the children get from a Stein/Dorf/Pop education is the belief that
ANY idea is worthy of acceptance as valid without challenge or critical
scrutiny. So the children learn not to be skeptical of weirdness. Anything
is possible -- even reincarnation, predestination, karma, black is white,
colour isn't really colour, and the like.
It is the antithesis of 500 years of the development of human reason.
ROSS concludes:
)So how do we separate the good stuff from the cultism that the PLANS people
)fixate on? That's what I want to know.
and KOPP says:
You can't.
Not inside the movement, nor in any school where the Stein/Dorf/Pop hard
core controls things. They simply won't listen. They shun parents
interested in challenging dogma; there are no parent-teacher forums where
new ideas are allowed. They're not interested in bringing Steiner's ideas
into the light of modern-day knowledge. They're not interested in
scientific research on learning. Their teacher education is spiritual cult
boot camp.
Children -- in fact all life -- have changed in the 70 years since Steiner;
but not the Stein/Dorf/Pops. The neo-luddites of the educational world are
in fact becoming a cult that is spreading to public education.
Our family were promised on enrolment that Anthroposophy would not be found
in the classroom, that it only underpinned the educational pedagogy. We
have found that not to be the case, with Anthroposophical beliefs strewn
all through every aspect of the curriculum -- thus being inculcated by
stealth, and perhaps deception.
It is true in a literal sense that Anth. is not _taught_ in Steiner
schools. But it is there. Stein/Dorf/Pops are fond of telling the rest of
us that it cannot be divorced from the pedagogy, or the education will no
longer be Waldorf.
(We were also told that therefore we did not have to understand Anth. or
become Anths. I personally went to some lengths to discover what
Stein/Dorf/Pop was all about -- but obviously not great enough lengths.
This list did not exist then, nor the PLANS site on the Web, and plowing
through all the general literature, especially that recommended by the
school, did not raise enough alarm.
(Though I must admit I did mark my notes from one pre-enrolment lecture by
one of our main Anthropop. teachers with "this is pretty far-out stuff".
Little did I know HOW far out it was. When I began reading this list about
18 months ago it was like a light bulb going on in my head: here was
confirmation of all I had come to wonder about and think strange about my
kids education. That is why I strongly support the idea of a
truth-in-education statement like the one proposed on this list.)
If Mr. Ross or any others want what they believe to be the good points of
Stein/Dorf/Pop education, but not the religious inculcation of occult
spiritualism and weird science, they will have to found their own schools.
Good luck, Charlie.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n386.5 ---------------
From: wrensong monitor.net
Subject: Child psychology/spiritual training in WE
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 13:48:45 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199705091757.KAA28098 lists1.best.com)
I mentioned that a former WE parent I knew was considering whether
or not to participate in this list. Today I received a letter from her.
She titled it Waldorf Stories. The first story is titled Knitting:
((Here is the first installment. I thought that I would take the easier
one first. I am angry as I sit here finishing it! Hope it can do some
good:
When my son was in first grade, part of the curriculum was to learn
how to knit. This was explained to us as fine motor development. The
children were taught a rhyme which they were to say to themselves as they
knit, to guide their steps. They used big wooden needles that they had made
themselves. A special knitting teacher was in charge, and only two
handpicked parents were allowed in the classroom of 36 children during the
special knitting time. The children were not allowed to take the knitting
home to work on it. They were to make a piece of knitted cloth first, then
knit a cover for their woodwind musical instruments.
I was able to help in the classroom with this process twice, as one
of the other parents had a crisis. I was told where to sit. When a chid
needed help, they would raise their hand, and be given permission to
approach an adult for help. If a child had dropped a stitch, and continued
to knit until he discovered that there was an asymmetry, (which could take
awhile), the adult would tear the knitting the child had painstakingly done
back to the stitch right before the error. This was often done without
explanation to the child, matter of factly, I saw quite a few children
holding back tears as this was roughly done to their work over and over
again.
My son had difficulty with the knitting process. I asked for him to
receive individual instruction on knitting I the classroom, and this was
done, but resulted in many tearing out sessions. Then I offered to take him
to see the teacher after classtime, and she did help him, but he continued
to have difficulty. The tension began to guild, because the goal was to
have the piece of cloth and the instrument covers done by the end of school.
I then asked for, and received cautiously, permission to bring his
needles and yarn home. I have a friend who knows how to knit, and took him
to visit her, and they knitted together for a while. But when he took the
product of this back to school, it was torn out as imperfect.
At this point I talked with the teacher about the philosophy of
tearing out imperfect work. I believe that you sometimes accept
imperfection, and work with it in life, especially in art. It can become a
source of great beauty. She told me that she was teaching the children the
opposite, that if you missed a stitch in life you went back and corrected
it as many times as it took to get it perfect. She also told me that since
I had no training in Anthroposophy, my view was not going to be considered
by the school or herself, in what or how she taught my son.
After the next class knitting session, my son told me that he had
been told that "he would not be a I was sorely tempted to knit the
thing for him at this pint, because of the time pressure. But I knew that
would confirm in his eyes the pronouncement of incapability. We sat for
many hours together, instead, next to each other, saying the rhyme, with
him knitting his cloth and bag.
He did succeed in knitting his bag. As with so man other issues in
Waldorf school, this episode looked innocent. But had I not been in the
classroom, seen the looks on those children's faces as their work was torn
out, and been aware of the pronouncement of incapability that my son had
received, I would not have known the deeper issues that were at stake here,
for my and other children's psyches. Parents are not told that their
children are being taught much more than fine motor development.))
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n386.6 ---------------
From: wrensong monitor.net
Subject: Child psychology/spiritual training in WE
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 18:02:45 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sorry--in regard to the letter sent earlier, there are several corrections
to make. Much good a spell checker does when you spell all your typos
correctly!:
((I asked for him to receive individual instruction on knitting I the
classroom)) should have read _in_ the classroom rather than I the classroom.
((...my son told me that he had been told that "he would not be a ))
should have read ((My son told me that he had been told "he would not be
able to finish this project." A person that he saw as authority had
announced to him that he was incapable. He did not remember if this was the
knitting teacher or his class teacher.))
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n386.7 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: (from Caldwell) Re: Jim Caldwell comment on web site
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:11:24 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
) )From: "Bill Gunn" (billgunn inreach.com)
) )Subject: Re: Jim Caldwell comment on web site
) )Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 08:01:03 -0700
) )To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
) )
) )) So while it is true that anthroposophy does have some things in
) )) common with religion, the differences are really critical. The most
) )) important of these is that anthroposophy does not proselytize. That is
) )) the reason that parents of children in Waldorf Schools are unaware that
) )) anthroposophy stands behind it. We don't seek to convert people.
) )
) ) Well, Jim, I've only been reading this list for a couple weeks
)but I've
) )read ample examples of proselytizing at Northern California Waldorf schools
) )as early as 3rd grade. Small children view their teachers with a
) )profound
) )reverence. The teacher's knowledge is looked upon as the truth. Teaching
) )creationism to kids in any form (Steiner or whatever) is in my opinion
) )"converting" in the most objectionable way; i.e. targeting misinformation
) )at children guised in the aura of fact.
) )
) )Bill
Bill,
Thanks for the information, but I'm not sure what your objection is so
pleas tell me more. The great hope of every teacher is that children will
hold them in the regard that to ones you are talking about aparently hole
theirs. And of course, Waldorf education's biggest attraction is the
effect that it has on the children. They generally like going to school
and look forward to it. This is not accidental, but is the direct result
of implementing Rudolf Steiner's ideas about the nature of man, including
children and how they should be approached for the purpose of teaching.
As far as creationism is concerned, my understanding of the term
is more significantly different from the anthroposophical world view than
it is similar. Anthroposophy claims to be a scientific approach to
spiritual matters. In other words, if natural scientific thinking as a
mental activity is refined sufficiently through training of a certain
type, then it is possible to actually perceive through "thinking" what is
otherwise not perceptible through the senses. Rudolf Steiner was by means
the only anthroposophist to have achieved some success in this regard,
but he is so far the one who seems to have accomplished the most.
Anthroposopnical teaching regarding the origins of the cosmos are the
result of investigations made by thinking, once thinking has itself
become an organ of perception for higher realms. In The Philosophy of
Freedom, Steiner points out among other things how in ordinary thinking
we already have a hint that this is actually possible. Even empiricists
must admit that such a philosophy is unworkable, since if the only
things that can be known are things that can be observed by the senses,
then empiricism itself (being a "mere idea") cannot be known.
Anthroposophy does subscribe to evolution, but not in the
materialistic Darwinian sense. An anthroposophist who is an attorney
named Norman Macbeth wrote a critique of Darwinism entitled Darwin
Retried that drew on quite strong evidence to demonstrate that natural
selection is first of all a tautology rather than a scientific propositon
and that at best it is woefully inadequate to explain what has happened
on this planet. What is hard to do is to get a decent hearing for opinion
that contradicts what is taken for virtual holy writ by the scientific
and academic community. There is nothing new in this, Einstein, Plank, et
al had the same problem promoting what was then "the new physics."
To me creationism is the special concern of people who are
principally fundamentalist Christians who wish to teach their
understanding of creation as put forth in Genesis One. The Bible is
considered to be the repository of everything worth knowing, so that
whatever contradicts the Bible is in error. They also see the Bible
therefore as the beginning of all true scientific knowledge. This point
of view is not at all in keeping with either the anthroposophical method
of acquiring knowledge, or the results of spiritual scientific
investigarions.
It is also difficult to justify insisting that only what agrees
with secular science be taught to children. As I mentioned in my first
communication, when I became an atheist (for about five or six years) and
a militant one at that, it was because I had reached certain conclusions
about the validity of what I had been taught in church. Atheism is always
a conclusion. If other people reason about the same evidence and reach
differing conclusions, then it is hardly intellectually respectable to
simply dismiss them out of hand. Whether you agree with us or not,
anthroposophists believe that Rudolf Steiner's Spiritual Science is the
next step in the unfolding of scientific understanding. We also catch
plenty of flack from religious people who say that all knowledge of
spiritual matters must be sought in religious documents and traditions.
Best wishes and stay in touch.
Jim
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n386 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n387 --------------
001 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Re: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and
Bel
002 - mckay oro.net - Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay, early learning
003 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Heart (pump or not) bypass operation
004 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Heart (pump or not) bypass operation (apology)
005 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: Oak Ridge
006 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Re: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and
Be
007 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and
B
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n387.1 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and
Belgium
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 21:54:14 +0200 (MET DST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)From my earlier report (based on Leidsch Dagblad daily):
)) In May 1997, a committee of the Belgian parliament published a 700 page
)) report on cults (Dutch: 'sekten'). The parliamentary committee was formed
)) after the mass suicide and murder by the Order of the Solar Temple. One
)) Solar Temple leader, Jouret, was Belgian. The Solar Temple had links to the
)) extreme Right in Belgian politics.
)) The report mentions 189 'cults', including Anthroposophy.
)From an article by Birgit Donker, Nieuwe Rotterdamse Courant, 9 May 1997:
'Black list' of cults divides Belgian politics
...
Also, on Steiner schools one could hear angry reactions, because the report
named the Anthroposophical movement, and students started asking questions
about their 'sectarian schools.' Especially the recommendation by the
parliamentary committee to keep investigating the 189 movements, named in
its report, caused angry reactions.
Greetings,
Herman de Tollenaere
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n387.2 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay, early learning
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 13:51:40 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On Fri., 5/9/97, Charlie wrote:
[snip]
) and there
)have been findings among "current" researchers that this is a good thing,
)children are just not ready to sit still
)and focus their eyes on a text-heavy book until maybe age 8 or 9.
Charlie, young children may not be able to sit still for very long, but
their ability to focus their eyes on things like text in a book, is well
developed by age 3. At birth, babies can see, but not in fine-grained
detail. They have not yet acquired the knack of focusing both eyes on a
single object or developed more sophisticated visual skills like depth
preception. They also lack hand-eye coordination. Each time a baby tries
to touch a tantilizing object or gazes intently at a face, tiny bursts of
electricity shoot through the brain, knitting neurons into circuits as
well defined as those etched onto silicon chips. At about the age of two
months, the motor-control centers of the brain develop to the point that
infants can suddenly reach out and grab a nearby object. At about four
months, the cortex begines to refine the connections needed for depth
preception and binocular vision.
When the brain does not recieve the right information, or shuts it out,
the result can be devastating. If the brain is not exercised early on,
the visual system will not develop. An example is, children who are born
with a cataract will become permanently blind in that eye if the clouded
lens is not *promptly* removed. The reason is, the brain's visual centers
require sensory stimulus, in this case the stimulus provided by light
hitting the retina of the eye, to maintain their still tentative
connections. Visual acuity is almost fully developed by the age 5, and
binocular vision by age 3.
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n387.3 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Heart (pump or not) bypass operation
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 08:56:21 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Michael Friedjung tried to clarify a simple matter of heart "science"
(really, biomedical engineering) for a reader who thinks a heart bypass
operation means the heart is rendered redundant ... but Michael still
doesn't get the concepts right:
)Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:36:10 +0100
)From: friedjung iap.fr
)Subject: Re: a-s: Science and Steiner
)
)Dear friends,
) I think that Graham Calderwood misundersands the nature of a
)heart byepass operation. During the operation (I think mine lasted 6 hours
)the heart is I understood byepassed by a machine (I was NOT conscious to
)witness this!). Coronal arteries are replaced by parts of veins (a sort of
)self transplant) and the heart is put back in the circuit. For a few days
)afterwards there is a pacemaker and a tube supplying I think oxygen.
) Michael Friedjung.
Michael:
The "bypass" in a heart by pass operation refers not to the "bypassing" of
the stilled heart by a heart-lung machine to take over the circulation of
blood during the operation.
It refers to the "bypassing" of the diseased arteries by the new veins used
as arteries.
Kind of like a road bypass that goes around a piece of potholed ashphalt.
The diseased arteries that are replaced are not called "coronal" (an
interstingly Freudian or perhaps Steinerian slip of the tongue) but
"coronary", as in, supplying the heart itself with the blood necessary to
carry the oxygen for the heart muscle. It is the lack of this blood, and
the oxygen for the muscle to keep functioning (i.e., contracting to squeeze
the blood out of the heart) that causes heart muscle to die, in the
well-known heart attack.
(I've personally seen enough of both heart operations and heart post-mortem
examinations, and been a science journalist.)
To the rest of you:
In deference to Michael Friedjung's obvious goodwill and deeply human
nature I will refrain from making any comment about how easy it is for
Anthroposophical "scientists" to invent their own pseudo-science if they
can't even get the "secular" version of it right.
Oops, did I just do what I said I wouldn't? Sorry.
(Oh, and for those who note the cc: crossposting with the ire of
correspondents here who say that I'm some sort of ghoul for quoting without
permission, two things: if you write something even semi-public on the
Internet, you can expect to see it quoted somewhere; even semi-closed
mailing lists like this one are now archived by the robot indexing services
like Deja-News; and, in deference to the aforementioned sensibilities, I
have paraphrased for the Waldorf Critics list, not quoted Michael Friedjung
directly.)
Cheers from Godzone (God's Own Country),
Michael Kopp
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n387.4 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Heart (pump or not) bypass operation (apology)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 10:31:44 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To both a-s and waldorf critics lists:
Sorry, I let my mailer get ahead of me and actually did cross-post a
verbatim copy of my post to the a-s list to the wc list. I had intended to
do what I said in the last paragraph, and not quote or crosspost, but
paraphrase. The cc got away before I could change it.
Please also accept my apologies if anyone is personally hurt by my jibes.
I'm trying to make fun of the silly, weird _ideas_ and the sloppy
_thinking_, not the people, whom I respect as human beings (but not as
thinkers).
However, let me make clear that I do not believe there is anything wrong
with quoting and cross-posting. This is an old argument and won't go away,
but I won't belabour it either.
Cheers,
Michael Kopp
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n387.5 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 23:18:17 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199705051937.MAA17657 lists1.best.com)
)Charlie writes on May 5th,
[Snip]
But the Waldorf
)schools have done a lot of good.
I'm curious about this statement, Charlie. I've been looking for studies to
back this claim, but meanwhile, why do you state this ? What good have they
done? While good things are bound to happen in a caring environment, many
teachers offer that, not just Waldorf. Testamonials are a dime a dozen.
I'm looking for real evidence. I've seen evidence to the contrary. I am
gathering testing results from local Waldorf educated kids. So far, they
create a woeful tale. I need more data to call it a study. (Anyone care to
participate in this, let me know.)
I am not interested in the NIMBY stuff, especially
)getting new immigrants riled up about cults and the like. It's reminding me
)of the false-memory child-molesting fiasco with those poor day-care
)workers. That was in CA too, wasn't it?
Actually, PLANS has calmed things down a little. Dan's presentation is
impeccable. He uses _only_ Anthroposophical literature that speaks for
itself. We have added course content from the public teacher training
program, thanks to public school teachers collections. (BTW, the Rudolf
Steiner College _claims_ that they only teach the methodology to _public_
school teachers. PLANS has evidence to the contrary.) Dan is understated in
his delivery, and lets people draw their own conclusions. Americans United
uses Dan Dugan as their expert on Anthroposophy. PLANS is not an alarmist
organization. Anthroposophists are invited and welcomed to our
presentations. (In fact, they _do_ come.)
Public teachers are concerned that they are making the children "practice
witch craft." They see children "walking the pentagram" before drawing it
in the main lesson books. They see the nature tables as alters. Chanting,
saying verses in reverence to nature, walking with their arms criss-
crossed over their hearts is deeply alarming to many public school
teachers. The Hmong families, OTOH, seem deeply insulted by the
non-academic curriculum. They worry that their children will be unprepared
for college.
They want computers, not knitting. The school has taken No time to educate
them about WE. This may work against school officials.
Dan told extremely concerned families that Anthroposophists were _not_
dangerous. Emotions run high, and we have tried to be a calming force. Keep
in mind that parents were concerned long before we showed up. We have
simply educated them. The school officials, it appears, have refused parent
requested meetings to discuss concerns with Waldorf inclusion since
December.
)
)But the core matter I'd like to see is what can be salvaged from the
)Waldorf method and how can we learn to grow better children. Not SAT-score
)generators, but integrated, moral people.
I think I gave my opinion on this one before.
)
)I did appreciate the stuff from Tom Mellett about the W.I. Thompson book.
)Thompson's take seems just about right; Steiner was a little weird but he
)was also a little right about many things. His FOLLOWERS may be gettin' a
)little wacky now, but there are some good ideas in there to be leveraged.
)
)More things on that level are appreciated.
Generate some conversation, Charlie. Ask questions. State opinions. Flame
your opponents! (evil grin)
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n387.6 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and
Belgium
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 19:53:24 +0200 (MET DST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 09:54 PM 10/5/97 +0200, I wrote:
)From my earlier report (based on Leidsch Dagblad daily):
))) In May 1997, a committee of the Belgian parliament published a 700 page
))) report on cults (Dutch: 'sekten'). The parliamentary committee was formed
))) after the mass suicide and murder by the Order of the Solar Temple. ...
))) The report mentions 189 'cults', including Anthroposophy.
)
))From an article by Birgit Donker, Nieuwe Rotterdamse Courant, 9 May 1997:
)
)'Black list' of cults divides Belgian politics
)
)...
)
)Also, on Steiner schools one could hear angry reactions, because the report
)named the Anthroposophical movement, and students started asking questions
)about their 'sectarian schools.' Especially the recommendation by the
)parliamentary committee to keep investigating the 189 movements, named in
)its report, caused angry reactions.
On 11 May, on a Belgian TV program, there was a debate between Van Peel (of
the Christian Democrats) and Tobback (of the Socialists) on the report. The
Christian Democrat members of the committee backed the report; but other
Christian Democrats criticized aspects. The interviewer suggested that this
was only because the report did mention Catholic organizations like Opus Dei
and L'Oeuvre; and did not mention Freemasonry.
Van Peel denied this:'the report also mentioned Buddhist groups and Steiner
schools which are not cults'.
The debate will probably continue.
Greetings,
Herman de Tollenaere
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n387.7 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and
Belgium
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:32:40 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199705111755.KAA11965 lists1.best.com)
Herman de Tollenaere writes,
)On 11 May, on a Belgian TV program, there was a debate between Van Peel (of
)the Christian Democrats) and Tobback (of the Socialists) on the report. The
)Christian Democrat members of the committee backed the report; but other
)Christian Democrats criticized aspects. The interviewer suggested that this
)was only because the report did mention Catholic organizations like Opus Dei
)and L'Oeuvre; and did not mention Freemasonry.
)Van Peel denied this:'the report also mentioned Buddhist groups and Steiner
)schools which are not cults'.
)
It sounds as if Van Peel needs some educating about Steiner schools. How
would we send him a packet of information? It is difficult to remain
esoteric in the technological/information age. How could we contact this
man?
Deby
Deby Snell
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n387 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n388 --------------
001 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - DRAFT press release
002 - Charlie_Ross Slf.Org - Re: ? What good have they done?
003 - stevet ora.com (Steve Tal -
004 - RigbyL aol.com - Oak Ridge
005 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Re: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and
Bel
006 - mckay oro.net - Re: religion
007 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Lively meeting in Leeuwarden (The Netherlands) on Anthroposoph
008 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - web site visitors over 4000
009 - mckay oro.net - Re: Oak Ridge
010 - purple (purple ka.net) - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n387
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n388.1 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: DRAFT press release
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:10:45 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
PEOPLE FOR LEGAL AND NON-SECTARIAN SCHOOLS
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - MAY 12, 1997
Contact:
Debra Snell, President, (916) 273-1005 snell oro.net
Dan Dugan, Secretary, (415) 821-9776 plans dandugan.com
People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools (PLANS) will present a briefing
on Oak Ridge School's "Waldorf method" program at 4:30 PM, Thursday May 15,
at the California Teachers Association, 1118 10th Street, Sacramento,
California. Representatives of the CTA, the Sacramento school board, and
the Curriculum Commission of the State Department of Education have been
invited.
A third of the teachers at Oak Ridge school, a "magnet" school funded by a
$350,000 Department of Education grant, have applied for transfers because
they object to religious elements in the teacher training and question the
educational value of the Waldorf method. PLANS alleges that Waldorf
programs are a missionary activity of Anthroposophy, a cult-like religious
sect. Dan Dugan, PLANS Secretary, will show examples of Waldorf
publications supporting this allegation. Teachers who have had Waldorf
teacher training will testify about their experiences.
Before Oak Ridge began its conversion to a Waldorf magnet school, PLANS
contacted the Sacramento school board twice to warn them of problems other
districts have had with Waldorf programs. In addition, Americans United for
Separation of Church and State provided a legal brief to the board which
was also ignored. Debra Snell, PLANS President, said "we hope that the new
school board will be able to correct the previous board's mistake before
too much damage is done."
Other school districts have avoided entanglement with Waldorf. St. Cloud,
Minnesota rejected a proposal because "The spiritual philosophy behind
Waldorf schools could not be separated from its educational components."
When the Anchorage, Alaska school board rejected a Waldorf program, the
superintendent said "district staff have been informed that anthroposophy
is a fundamental part of the teacher training program which develops the
instructors for the program."
PLANS web site: http://www.waldorfcritics.org
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n388.2 ---------------
From: Charlie_Ross Slf.Org
Subject: Re: ? What good have they done?
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:35:42 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
In a reply to my subjective observation that Waldorf schools have
done a lot of good, Deby asked a good question ? What good have they done?
I don't know! I've seen some horrible scenes in and results from public
schools. Kids who can't focus
and who don't care. All the Waldorf schools and kids I've observed have
been cause to have hope for
the future. But the Waldorf sample was only 1 school and a few kids here in
there in 2 areas of the country.
Obviously not a scientific study.
So, one point might be: What's the argument here? There are several levels.
I see them all being muddled in reponses to
posts I make. Is there a way to frame what is being criticized? Here's some
specific issues that I see being crossed and mixed together.
----------------------------------------------------------------
* Public funding for Waldorf schools. - I'm ag'in it.
* Anthrosophical theology being taught indirectly. - I'm ag'in it
* The Waldorf "method" - as opposed to what "normal" method?
* The Waldorf method in practice - compared to which "regular" school?
* The outcome of an "ideal" Waldorf school education - as opposed to
what other kind of school?
* The outcome of specific Waldorf school educations - the basis of many
complaints and testimonials to this list
* The outcome of an "ideal" public education - what it that? Piaget based?
* The method of testing educational outcomes. Test results without
disclosing populations and methods are meaningless; damn lies.
* The developmental abilities of a typical child/family group
* The developmental abilities of an ideal child/family group
* The training of teachers.
* Specific experiences in specific schools. - If people have a specific
problem, they should name the school
or the city. Otherwise, we are engaging in urban-legend creation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
So I hope that we could agree to argue about Waldorf Education in general
as a method. I would think everyone
should agree that public funding for a school that requires certain
theology classes for its teachers is bad.
But it seems there are people on this list who will give no quarter - they
would see all Waldorf schools stamped out. Why not just try to frame some
general issues and get clarity on them? That's criticism, I think.
Anyhow, the survey you are thinking of doing sounds very interesting, Deby.
But I sure hope it is conducted on a level playing field. Statistics are
weapons, more and more.
PS - David, I'm looking into the child development/reading interplay stuff.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n388.3 ---------------
From: stevet ora.com (Steve Talbott)
Subject:
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:40:44 EDT
Content-Type: text
)From stevet Sun May 11 11:13:54 1997
From: stevet syntax (Steve Talbott)
Reply-To: Steve Talbott (stevet ora.com)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90)
To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
Subject: Re: a-s: Heart (pump or not) bypass operation
Status: OR
Michael Kopp --
I was stunned by the ill will and refusal to listen exhibited in your
patronizing "correction" of Michael Friedjung and anthroposophical
scientists. Yes, you know what a heart bypass operation is, but did you
look back over Friedjung's brief message to see whether the basic facts
you explained might have been his exact meaning? Surely, in fact, they
*were* his meaning. You take his re-use of the term "bypass" to suggest
that he was confusing "heart bypass operation" with "temporary bypass of
the heart during an operation." Yet, a straightforward reading suggests
that he was simply talking, successively, about *both* things. You would
certainly have seen this if you had not been so single-mindedly intent
upon discovering other people's blunders--not, by the way, a very
promising path toward deeper understanding in *any* field.
A first requirement for entering into constructive conversation is a
willingness to look for the most reasonable, most truth-preserving
interpretation of the other person's words. You have been content simply
to project an absurdity into them. Is this an example of the
tough-minded, rigorous scholarship you are intent on bringing to
anthroposophy?
Then you add to your indictment of anthroposophical science the fact that
a non-English speaker substitutes "coronal" for "coronary" in an email
message.
Good grief. There's so much you *could* criticize anthroposophists for
(making us the better for it). Why waste your time on such childish
things?
I'm copying this to waldorf-critics, which I do not subscribe to (and had
not known about before Dan Dugan's recent post to the a-s list). If the
crossposts from both of you to a-s reflect the general quality of
waldorf-critics, I doubt that many *will* subscribe. Which is too bad;
criticism is really needed.
Steve
------------------------------
Steve Talbott (stevet ora.com) O'Reilly & Associates
NETFUTURE editor: http://www.ora.com/people/staff/stevet/netfuture/
US Mail: 101 RT 21C, Ghent NY 12075 USA Telephone: 518-672-5103
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n388.4 ---------------
From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Oak Ridge
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:03:33 -0400 (EDT)
Deby, regarding the situation as Oak Ridge, you stated that "Public teachers
are concerned that they are making the children 'practice witchcraft.'" But
unlike the situation with many charter schools, public educators started the
Waldorf Methods Magnet program at Oak Ridge. As I understand the history, a
group called Waldorf Inspired Sacramento Educators (WISE) was formed by
public school teachers who had been introduced to Waldorf methods. The
superintendent of the Sacramento Unified School District asked Rudolf Steiner
College to help bring Waldorf methods to several schools in the district.
When the district schools had the opportunity to select a special focus as a
"magnet" program, the teachers at Oak Ridge elected Waldorf.
In short, public educators--from classroom teachers on up to the
Superintendent of Schools--have expended significant effort to bring Waldorf
methods into the local public school system. Why do you think they did this?
Assuming they were not fools, what was it about these methods that they saw
as valuable enough to justify that effort?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n388.5 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and
Belgium
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:04:50 +0200 (MET DST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:32 PM 11/5/97 -0700, Deby Snell wrote:
)Herman de Tollenaere writes,
)
)
))On 11 May, on a Belgian TV program, there was a debate between Van Peel (of
))the Christian Democrats) and Tobback (of the Socialists) on the report. The
))Christian Democrat members of the committee backed the report; but other
))Christian Democrats criticized aspects. The interviewer suggested that this
))was only because the report did mention Catholic organizations like Opus Dei
))and L'Oeuvre; and did not mention Freemasonry.
))Van Peel denied this:'the report also mentioned Buddhist groups and Steiner
))schools which are not cults'.
Purely technically, this is correct. A school itself is not a cult. However,
sometimes, it may be controlled by a cult, be a cover for a cult, etc. The
question is really: Is Anthroposophy a cult? And if not a hard-core cult,
does it have cult-like aspects?
Deby:
)It sounds as if Van Peel needs some educating about Steiner schools. How
)would we send him a packet of information? It is difficult to remain
)esoteric in the technological/information age. How could we contact this
)man?
)
The address of this chairman of the Christelijke Volkspartij (Flemish
Christian People's Party) is:
Algemeen CVP-Voozitter Marc Van Peel
Tel. [Belgium]: 02/238 38 10
Fax: 02/238 38 39
Snail mail: CVP Secretariaat
Wetstraat 89
1040 Brussel
Belgium
Tel.: 02/238 38 11 - Fax: 02/230 43 60
Maybe it is also useful to send information to other parlementarians of this
party (like De Crem, who backed the report), and to other parties'
parliamentarians.
Best wishes,
Herman de Tollenaere
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n388.6 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: religion
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:08:07 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:29:40 +0100 (BST)
)From: levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk)
)To: mckay oro.net
)Subject: Re: religion
)MIME-Version: 1.0
)
)yet another religious statement.
)
)You really don't understand do you.
)
)I have no problem with critics of waldrof or anything else. if the
)critique is based on masquerading as "scientific" then it ought to follow
)its own premises. You are not doing that. Indeed, your comments, along
)with many others are laden with emotion and subjectivity.
)
)Fine ! Just don't pretend it is anything else.
)
)Almost everyone on this list - on all sides - spends most of the time
)chasing themselves up their own bottoms and pretending this is
)objectivity. It is not. And, as with this message, the proof of it is how
)rude we are all being to each other - I mean, we haven't even met !
)
)paul
I asked Mr. Levy to correspond with me ONLY on the critics list, as I ask
of all others also, yet Mr Levy continues to ignore my request. I will
delete all future messages from him sent to me directly.
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n388.7 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Lively meeting in Leeuwarden (The Netherlands) on Anthroposophy
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:04:35 +0200 (MET DST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lively debate on Anthroposophy in Leeuwarden (The Netherlands)
On Friday 9 May 1997, there was a debate on Anthroposophy, and its links to
(Waldorf) education, to medicine, and to occultism in general. It was in
Leeuwarden, a town of 60.000 inhabitants, and the capital of the northern
Dutch province of Friesland.
A very mixed audience had come to the Romein Theatre. Many of them spoke up
during the lively debate. Some were staunch supporters of Anthroposophy.
Some were sharp critics; like a father who had withdrawn his child from the
local Waldorf school. As for non-Anthroposophic esoteric movements, a
supporter of Benjamin Creme's Maitreya movement was present. This
organization expects the immediate return of the Christ, basing itself on
Theosophical ideas, derived from the early twentieth century promotion of
Krishnamurti as vehicle for the World Teacher, and from Alice Bailey.
Dirk de Bood of the co-organizing Frisian Anti-Fascist Committee presided.
In his opening speech, he recalled how he himself used to believe in the
alternative medicine of Mellie Uyldert. She used to be the principal face of
Dutch occultism on television; she sold more than a million books.
Then, in 1984, national dailies reported that during the Nazi occupation of
the Netherlands, she wrote on runes for an SS magazine. After the Second
World War, she had continued to write in a positive sense on Nazis; and in a
negative sense on Jews, on non-white immigrants whom she wanted to return
forcibly to their native countries, etc.
These reports had been an eye-opener to Dirk. Since 1984, also others
started to investigate if, perhaps, not only Ms Uyldert, but also other
tendencies within occultism, including Anthroposophy, might not have
undesirable aspects.
Then, yours truly, of SIMPOS (Foundation for Information on Occult
Tendencies and Social Problems), spoke. I mentioned the history of occultism
since the 1840s, basing myself partly on my Ph. D. thesis on Theosophical
Society history: first Spiritualism, then Theosophy, then Anthroposophy.
Then, I spoke about the links to medicine and to education.
Since the last few years, the debate on Waldorf education, which had ebbed
a bit since the climax in 1984-1985, has become bigger again in The
Netherlands. Toos Jeurissen, a founding member of SIMPOS, withdrew her
children from Waldorf school after finding out about the subject Racial
Ethnography. Just one example she found out: in these classes, children were
taught to draw blond children walking in bright sunlight, while black
children, as they supposedly belonged to the Anthroposophical category of
=91moon people', walked in the weak light of the moon and the stars. The
children also drew schemes, putting the =91black race' on the level of=
babies,
and the =91white race' on the level of adults.
Toos Jeurissen published a book, Uit de Vrije School geklapt (English:
Waldorf salad with Aryan mayonnaise?? A mother challenges =91race' theories=
in
Rudolf Steiner education).
After my speech, I joined three other debaters behind the table on the
stage. At first, Gerben van der Heide, a teacher at the Michael school, the
local Waldorf school, spoke. He said that he was not a member of the
Anthroposophical Society. He had a copy of Toos' booklet with him.
Also a copy of his own booklet, Een visie op de rassen, which he published
in 1996, during the controversy after the publication of Toos' book. Though
he did not name Toos with his sources, his choice of Rudolf Steiner quotes
makes her impact obvious. Van der Heide questions (page 26) whether
Steiner's views on races were correct. Yet, Van der Heide wanted to end his
book on a positive note for Steiner. He quoted a paragraph on the importance
of individual freedom from Steiner's Philosophy of Freedom.
I think this is somewhat of a problem. This does not take into account that
Steiner's ideas were not monolithic, but went through various phases. In the
1880s, he had contacts with Greater Germany nationalists. In the 1890s, when
he wrote the Philosophy of Freedom, he had more contacts to freethinkers,
anarchists and socialists. In 1897, the year after the Philosophy of
Freedom, Steiner wrote scathingly in the Magazin f=FCr Literatur on=
Theosophy.
He thought it an enemy of the freedom of science, =91empty' and
=91hypocritical'. However, Steiner in 1902 converted to Theosophy, racial
doctrines included. Without knowing something about Theosophy, one can
hardly understand Anthroposophy, founded in 1913 after a conflict on
Krishnamurti with the Theosophical Society.
The Leeuwarden Waldorf school was founded in 1982, Van der Heide said. It
started with only small children. Racial Ethnography (Dutch: rassenkunde),
he said, had never been a subject in Leeuwarden. By the time the children
were 12, 13, when they usually get this subject, it had already become
controversial. People like the historian Gjalt Zondergeld had criticized it
in the press. Van der Heide said that some people had criticized Ethnography
(Dutch: volkenkunde) as thinly disguised Racial Ethnography. However,
Ethnography was not even a separate subject as such in Leeuwarden.
How about multi-cultural education? The Leeuwarden school had only white
pupils, Van der Heide replied. However, the idea was good. Every country has
its own fairy tales.
I replied that I did not doubt Van der Heide's good intentions. However, I
heard from a South African that Waldorf schools in South Africa taught only
European fairy tales, =91while there are so many beautiful African fairy
tales'. An Anthroposophist from the floor said that in Amsterdam there was a
Waldorf school =91with only foreign children'. This was an incorrect
description for the plan for the Amsterdam multi-cultural Waldorf school,
which is not off the ground yet.
A man from the Gaasterland region asked: =91Talking about races: how about
the Frisian race?'
I replied that I had found a reference to this in The Theosophist magazine
in 1936. An English lady, Edith Pinchin, considered the =91Aryan' Root Race
the highest, as usually in Theosophical literature then. Within =91Aryans',
the =91Teutonic sub-race' was highest. This sub-race included sub-sub-races,
like Frisians and Dutch. And English: the highest sub-sub-race, the English
author thought.
My reply did not satisfy the Gaasterland man. How, he asked, about Frisian
racial characteristics, like being =91tall, blue-eyed, and blond, like
tonight's chairman?' Chairman Dirk de Bood replied: =91Well, I may be tall,
blue-eyed, and blond. However, I was not born in Friesland, but in
Amsterdam. Into a Jewish family!' This silenced the man from Gaasterland's
torrent of words.
Medicine and trash cans
On stage, Mr van der Meij, a nurse, represented the local Anthroposophical
Society.
The doctor Wiebe Veenema of the Anti-Quackery League said: =91To our
organization, Anthroposophy, as far as medicine is concerned, is quackery.'
A woman told from the floor how she had had cardiac trouble. She felt
dissatisfied with conventional medical treatment. She then went to an
Anthroposophical healer. This healer told her: =91Well, if you would have=
been
blonde, I would prescribe to you certain pills. However, your hair is black.
This blackness is all over your body and deep inside you. Now, this means
that I will have to prescribe quite different pills.' The lady told how this
stunned her. Back home, it sunk in what the healer had really said. She
threw the pills into the trash can. And she never went back to
Anthroposophical medicine.
The representatives on stage of the local Waldorf school and of the
Anthroposophical Society did not try to defend this healer. However,
Anthroposophists from the floor did so fiercely. Someone else asked from the
floor: =91Whatever happened to the trash can?' =91I suppose it got cured!'
another person shouted. =91What was the colour of the trash can's hair?' I=
asked.
After Dirk had closed the meeting, many people showed interest in SIMPOS
leaflets and in Toos Jeurissen's book. A sympathizer of Anthroposophy leafed
through Toos' book. He saw the Steiner quotations on races in it. He said:
=91These views of Steiner are worse than I thought'; and he wanted to buy
Toos' book.=20
Greetings,
Herman de Tollenaere
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n388.8 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: web site visitors over 4000
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:28:26 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The visitors counter on the PLANS web site
(http://www.waldorfcritics.org) has just ticked over 4000 since
mid-August '96. We continue to average 23 hits per day, same as last month.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n388.9 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:34:29 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)Deby, regarding the situation as Oak Ridge, you stated that "Public teachers
)are concerned that they are making the children 'practice witchcraft.'" But
)unlike the situation with many charter schools, public educators started the
)Waldorf Methods Magnet program at Oak Ridge. As I understand the history, a
)group called Waldorf Inspired Sacramento Educators (WISE) was formed by
)public school teachers who had been introduced to Waldorf methods. The
)superintendent of the Sacramento Unified School District asked Rudolf Steiner
)College to help bring Waldorf methods to several schools in the district.
) When the district schools had the opportunity to select a special focus as a
)"magnet" program, the teachers at Oak Ridge elected Waldorf.
)
)In short, public educators--from classroom teachers on up to the
)Superintendent of Schools--have expended significant effort to bring Waldorf
)methods into the local public school system. Why do you think they did this?
) Assuming they were not fools, what was it about these methods that they saw
)as valuable enough to justify that effort?
MONEY, MINIMAL RESEARCH, CONTROL ISSUES, CLOSE MINDED, HUMAN ERROR, 1st
IMPRESSION "FEEL GOOD", IGNORANT, MONEY, ETC. (it always comes back to
the bottom line, follow the money).
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n388.10 ---------------
From: purple (purple ka.net)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n387
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:40:20 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Please remove me from the list.
please remove me from the list.
please remove me from the list.
please remove me from the list.
please remove me from the list.
please remove me from the list.
etc.
thankyou,
Purple
At 02:00 PM 5/11/97 -0700, you wrote:
)
)-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n387 --------------
)
) 001 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Re: News items on Anthroposophy from
The Netherlands and
) Bel
) 002 - mckay oro.net - Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay,
early learning
) 003 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Heart (pump or not) bypass operation
) 004 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Heart (pump or not) bypass operation
(apology)
) 005 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: Oak Ridge
) 006 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Re: News items on Anthroposophy from
The Netherlands and
) Be
) 007 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: News items on Anthroposophy from
The Netherlands and
) B
)
)--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n387.1 ---------------
)
)From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
)Subject: Re: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and
) Belgium
)Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 21:54:14 +0200 (MET DST)
)MIME-Version: 1.0
)Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)
))From my earlier report (based on Leidsch Dagblad daily):
)
))) In May 1997, a committee of the Belgian parliament published a 700 page
))) report on cults (Dutch: 'sekten'). The parliamentary committee was formed
))) after the mass suicide and murder by the Order of the Solar Temple. One
))) Solar Temple leader, Jouret, was Belgian. The Solar Temple had links to the
))) extreme Right in Belgian politics.
))) The report mentions 189 'cults', including Anthroposophy.
)
))From an article by Birgit Donker, Nieuwe Rotterdamse Courant, 9 May 1997:
)
)'Black list' of cults divides Belgian politics
)
)...
)
)Also, on Steiner schools one could hear angry reactions, because the report
)named the Anthroposophical movement, and students started asking questions
)about their 'sectarian schools.' Especially the recommendation by the
)parliamentary committee to keep investigating the 189 movements, named in
)its report, caused angry reactions.
)
)Greetings,
)
)Herman de Tollenaere
)
)
)
)
)
)--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n387.2 ---------------
)
)From: mckay oro.net
)Subject: Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay, early learning
)Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 13:51:40 +0100
)MIME-Version: 1.0
)Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)
)On Fri., 5/9/97, Charlie wrote:
)
)[snip]
)) and there
))have been findings among "current" researchers that this is a good thing,
))children are just not ready to sit still
))and focus their eyes on a text-heavy book until maybe age 8 or 9.
)
)Charlie, young children may not be able to sit still for very long, but
)their ability to focus their eyes on things like text in a book, is well
)developed by age 3. At birth, babies can see, but not in fine-grained
)detail. They have not yet acquired the knack of focusing both eyes on a
)single object or developed more sophisticated visual skills like depth
)preception. They also lack hand-eye coordination. Each time a baby tries
)to touch a tantilizing object or gazes intently at a face, tiny bursts of
)electricity shoot through the brain, knitting neurons into circuits as
)well defined as those etched onto silicon chips. At about the age of two
)months, the motor-control centers of the brain develop to the point that
)infants can suddenly reach out and grab a nearby object. At about four
)months, the cortex begines to refine the connections needed for depth
)preception and binocular vision.
)
)When the brain does not recieve the right information, or shuts it out,
)the result can be devastating. If the brain is not exercised early on,
)the visual system will not develop. An example is, children who are born
)with a cataract will become permanently blind in that eye if the clouded
)lens is not *promptly* removed. The reason is, the brain's visual centers
)require sensory stimulus, in this case the stimulus provided by light
)hitting the retina of the eye, to maintain their still tentative
)connections. Visual acuity is almost fully developed by the age 5, and
)binocular vision by age 3.
)
)David McKay
)
)
)
)
)--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n387.3 ---------------
)
)From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
)Subject: Heart (pump or not) bypass operation
)Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 08:56:21 +1200
)MIME-Version: 1.0
)Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)
)Michael Friedjung tried to clarify a simple matter of heart "science"
)(really, biomedical engineering) for a reader who thinks a heart bypass
)operation means the heart is rendered redundant ... but Michael still
)doesn't get the concepts right:
)
))Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:36:10 +0100
))From: friedjung iap.fr
))Subject: Re: a-s: Science and Steiner
))
))Dear friends,
)) I think that Graham Calderwood misundersands the nature of a
))heart byepass operation. During the operation (I think mine lasted 6 hours
))the heart is I understood byepassed by a machine (I was NOT conscious to
))witness this!). Coronal arteries are replaced by parts of veins (a sort of
))self transplant) and the heart is put back in the circuit. For a few days
))afterwards there is a pacemaker and a tube supplying I think oxygen.
)) Michael Friedjung.
)
)Michael:
)
)The "bypass" in a heart by pass operation refers not to the "bypassing" of
)the stilled heart by a heart-lung machine to take over the circulation of
)blood during the operation.
)
)It refers to the "bypassing" of the diseased arteries by the new veins used
)as arteries.
)
)Kind of like a road bypass that goes around a piece of potholed ashphalt.
)
)The diseased arteries that are replaced are not called "coronal" (an
)interstingly Freudian or perhaps Steinerian slip of the tongue) but
)"coronary", as in, supplying the heart itself with the blood necessary to
)carry the oxygen for the heart muscle. It is the lack of this blood, and
)the oxygen for the muscle to keep functioning (i.e., contracting to squeeze
)the blood out of the heart) that causes heart muscle to die, in the
)well-known heart attack.
)
)(I've personally seen enough of both heart operations and heart post-mortem
)examinations, and been a science journalist.)
)
)To the rest of you:
)
)In deference to Michael Friedjung's obvious goodwill and deeply human
)nature I will refrain from making any comment about how easy it is for
)Anthroposophical "scientists" to invent their own pseudo-science if they
)can't even get the "secular" version of it right.
)
)Oops, did I just do what I said I wouldn't? Sorry.
)
)(Oh, and for those who note the cc: crossposting with the ire of
)correspondents here who say that I'm some sort of ghoul for quoting without
)permission, two things: if you write something even semi-public on the
)Internet, you can expect to see it quoted somewhere; even semi-closed
)mailing lists like this one are now archived by the robot indexing services
)like Deja-News; and, in deference to the aforementioned sensibilities, I
)have paraphrased for the Waldorf Critics list, not quoted Michael Friedjung
)directly.)
)
)Cheers from Godzone (God's Own Country),
)
)Michael Kopp
)
)
)
)
)--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n387.4 ---------------
)
)From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
)Subject: Heart (pump or not) bypass operation (apology)
)Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 10:31:44 +1200
)MIME-Version: 1.0
)Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)
)To both a-s and waldorf critics lists:
)
)Sorry, I let my mailer get ahead of me and actually did cross-post a
)verbatim copy of my post to the a-s list to the wc list. I had intended to
)do what I said in the last paragraph, and not quote or crosspost, but
)paraphrase. The cc got away before I could change it.
)
)Please also accept my apologies if anyone is personally hurt by my jibes.
)I'm trying to make fun of the silly, weird _ideas_ and the sloppy
)_thinking_, not the people, whom I respect as human beings (but not as
)thinkers).
)
)However, let me make clear that I do not believe there is anything wrong
)with quoting and cross-posting. This is an old argument and won't go away,
)but I won't belabour it either.
)
)Cheers,
)
)Michael Kopp
)
)
)
)
)--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n387.5 ---------------
)
)From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
)Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
)Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 23:18:17 -0700
)MIME-Version: 1.0
)Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)In-Reply-To: (199705051937.MAA17657 lists1.best.com)
)
))Charlie writes on May 5th,
)[Snip]
)
) But the Waldorf
))schools have done a lot of good.
)
)I'm curious about this statement, Charlie. I've been looking for studies to
)back this claim, but meanwhile, why do you state this ? What good have they
)done? While good things are bound to happen in a caring environment, many
)teachers offer that, not just Waldorf. Testamonials are a dime a dozen.
)I'm looking for real evidence. I've seen evidence to the contrary. I am
)gathering testing results from local Waldorf educated kids. So far, they
)create a woeful tale. I need more data to call it a study. (Anyone care to
)participate in this, let me know.)
)
)
) I am not interested in the NIMBY stuff, especially
))getting new immigrants riled up about cults and the like. It's reminding me
))of the false-memory child-molesting fiasco with those poor day-care
))workers. That was in CA too, wasn't it?
)
)Actually, PLANS has calmed things down a little. Dan's presentation is
)impeccable. He uses _only_ Anthroposophical literature that speaks for
)itself. We have added course content from the public teacher training
)program, thanks to public school teachers collections. (BTW, the Rudolf
)Steiner College _claims_ that they only teach the methodology to _public_
)school teachers. PLANS has evidence to the contrary.) Dan is understated in
)his delivery, and lets people draw their own conclusions. Americans United
)uses Dan Dugan as their expert on Anthroposophy. PLANS is not an alarmist
)organization. Anthroposophists are invited and welcomed to our
)presentations. (In fact, they _do_ come.)
)
)Public teachers are concerned that they are making the children "practice
)witch craft." They see children "walking the pentagram" before drawing it
)in the main lesson books. They see the nature tables as alters. Chanting,
)saying verses in reverence to nature, walking with their arms criss-
)crossed over their hearts is deeply alarming to many public school
)teachers. The Hmong families, OTOH, seem deeply insulted by the
)non-academic curriculum. They worry that their children will be unprepared
)for college.
)They want computers, not knitting. The school has taken No time to educate
)them about WE. This may work against school officials.
)
)Dan told extremely concerned families that Anthroposophists were _not_
)dangerous. Emotions run high, and we have tried to be a calming force. Keep
)in mind that parents were concerned long before we showed up. We have
)simply educated them. The school officials, it appears, have refused parent
)requested meetings to discuss concerns with Waldorf inclusion since
)December.
))
))But the core matter I'd like to see is what can be salvaged from the
))Waldorf method and how can we learn to grow better children. Not SAT-score
))generators, but integrated, moral people.
)
)I think I gave my opinion on this one before.
))
))I did appreciate the stuff from Tom Mellett about the W.I. Thompson book.
))Thompson's take seems just about right; Steiner was a little weird but he
))was also a little right about many things. His FOLLOWERS may be gettin' a
))little wacky now, but there are some good ideas in there to be leveraged.
))
))More things on that level are appreciated.
)
)Generate some conversation, Charlie. Ask questions. State opinions. Flame
)your opponents! (evil grin)
)
)Deby
)
)
)
)snell oro.net
)http://www.waldorfcritics.org
)People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
)
)
)
)
)--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n387.6 ---------------
)
)From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
)Subject: Re: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and
) Belgium
)Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 19:53:24 +0200 (MET DST)
)MIME-Version: 1.0
)Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)
)At 09:54 PM 10/5/97 +0200, I wrote:
)From my earlier report (based on Leidsch Dagblad daily):
)
)))) In May 1997, a committee of the Belgian parliament published a 700 page
)))) report on cults (Dutch: 'sekten'). The parliamentary committee was formed
)))) after the mass suicide and murder by the Order of the Solar Temple. ...
)))) The report mentions 189 'cults', including Anthroposophy.
))
)))From an article by Birgit Donker, Nieuwe Rotterdamse Courant, 9 May 1997:
))
))'Black list' of cults divides Belgian politics
))
))...
))
))Also, on Steiner schools one could hear angry reactions, because the report
))named the Anthroposophical movement, and students started asking questions
))about their 'sectarian schools.' Especially the recommendation by the
))parliamentary committee to keep investigating the 189 movements, named in
))its report, caused angry reactions.
)
)On 11 May, on a Belgian TV program, there was a debate between Van Peel (of
)the Christian Democrats) and Tobback (of the Socialists) on the report. The
)Christian Democrat members of the committee backed the report; but other
)Christian Democrats criticized aspects. The interviewer suggested that this
)was only because the report did mention Catholic organizations like Opus Dei
)and L'Oeuvre; and did not mention Freemasonry.
)Van Peel denied this:'the report also mentioned Buddhist groups and Steiner
)schools which are not cults'.
)
)The debate will probably continue.
)
)Greetings,
)
)Herman de Tollenaere
)
)
)
)--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n387.7 ---------------
)
)From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
)Subject: Re: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and
) Belgium
)Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:32:40 -0700
)MIME-Version: 1.0
)Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)In-Reply-To: (199705111755.KAA11965 lists1.best.com)
)
)Herman de Tollenaere writes,
)
)
))On 11 May, on a Belgian TV program, there was a debate between Van Peel (of
))the Christian Democrats) and Tobback (of the Socialists) on the report. The
))Christian Democrat members of the committee backed the report; but other
))Christian Democrats criticized aspects. The interviewer suggested that this
))was only because the report did mention Catholic organizations like Opus Dei
))and L'Oeuvre; and did not mention Freemasonry.
))Van Peel denied this:'the report also mentioned Buddhist groups and Steiner
))schools which are not cults'.
))
)
)It sounds as if Van Peel needs some educating about Steiner schools. How
)would we send him a packet of information? It is difficult to remain
)esoteric in the technological/information age. How could we contact this
)man?
)Deby
)Deby Snell
)
)
)snell oro.net
)http://www.waldorfcritics.org
)People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
)
)
)
)
)--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n387 ---------------
)
)
)
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n388 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n389 --------------
001 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: Lively meeting in Leeuwarden (The Netherlands) on Anthropo
002 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - public Waldorf briefing at Yuba County school board 5/14
003 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: Oak Ridge
004 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: Lively meeting in Leeuwarden (The Netherlands) on
Anthrop
005 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Re: Lively meeting in Leeuwarden (The Netherlands) on
Anthro
006 - RigbyL aol.com - Re: Oak Ridge
007 - RigbyL aol.com - Re: Lively meeting in Leeuwarden (The Netherlands) on Anthropo
008 - RigbyL aol.com - Re: Oak Ridge
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n389.1 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Lively meeting in Leeuwarden (The Netherlands) on Anthroposophy
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 05:43:02 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: (199705121710.KAA26101 lists1.best.com)
Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
[snip many old allegations on racism which have already been adequately
dealt with in this list]
) However, I
)heard from a South African that Waldorf schools in South Africa taught only
)European fairy tales,
That scurrilous allegation is entirely false.
I'm sure that the teachers at Inkanyezi school (and others in South
Africa) would be surprised to learn that, according to Mr de Tollenaere
and his informants, many of the tales they use are not, as they had
previously thought, their own cultural heritage.
Anyone wishing to verify that African tales *are* in the curriculum of
South African Waldorf schools is referred to _Curriculum for the Waldorf
Schools of South Africa_, published 1991 by the Federation of Waldorf
Schools, Republic of South Africa.
Since tales which most people regard as being of African origin are not
only used but are also indicated in published curricula, by claiming
that they are of European origin if Mr de Tollenaere and his informants
are repeating that age-old Dutch-colonial trick of denying the
indiginous origin of African cultural ideas.
Readers may also be interested to know that, not only are African tales
(and songs, etc) used in African Waldorf schools, but that extensive use
of them is used in many UK schools.
--
Stephen Tonkin
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n389.2 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: public Waldorf briefing at Yuba County school board 5/14
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:58:33 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
PEOPLE FOR LEGAL AND NON-SECTARIAN SCHOOLS
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - MAY 12, 1997
Contact:
Debra Snell, President, (916) 273-1005 snell oro.net
Dan Dugan, Secretary, (415) 821-9776 plans dandugan.com
People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools (PLANS) will present a briefing
on why Waldorf programs are unsuitable for public schools at the meeting of
the Yuba County School Board, 4:30 PM, Wednesday May 14, at the Yuba County
School District, 938 14th Street, Marysville, California.
A news report from Fox 40 about the controversy surrounding the Waldorf
program at Oak Ridge Elementary School in Sacramento has raised public
interest in Waldorf programs that have been adopted in two Yuba County
public schools, Thomas E. Mathews School and Harry P.B. Carden School.
PLANS alleges that Waldorf programs are a missionary activity of a
cult-like religious sect called Anthroposophy, founded in 1912 by Austrian
guru Rudolf Steiner. Dan Dugan, Secretary of PLANS and one of the few
experts on Anthroposophy who is not a member of the cult of Rudolf Steiner,
will show examples of Waldorf publications and teacher training materials
supporting PLANS allegation that Waldorf programs violate the
establishment clause of the First Amendment, separation of church and
state.
PLANS web site: http://www.waldorfcritics.org
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n389.3 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:20:50 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199705121833.LAA25367 lists1.best.com)
))Deby, regarding the situation as Oak Ridge, you stated that "Public teachers
))are concerned that they are making the children 'practice witchcraft.'" But
))unlike the situation with many charter schools, public educators started the
))Waldorf Methods Magnet program at Oak Ridge. As I understand the history, a
))group called Waldorf Inspired Sacramento Educators (WISE) was formed by
))public school teachers who had been introduced to Waldorf methods. The
))superintendent of the Sacramento Unified School District asked Rudolf Steiner
))College to help bring Waldorf methods to several schools in the district.
)) When the district schools had the opportunity to select a special focus as a
))"magnet" program, the teachers at Oak Ridge elected Waldorf.
Yes, you are correct, in a sense. The teachers were given a very short
time to make their choice, and it was not researched before the choice was
made. Since Steiner schools claim to be non-sectarian, the conflicts and
religious training seems to have come as a surprise to the dissident
teachers. Also, Steiner College officials state that they teach Waldorf
methodology without the spiritual component, and have "special" classes for
public school teachers. Apparently, they did not clean it up enough to get
past several of the teachers. Interestingly, the teachers seem very
concerned about [what they consider] an inadequate curriculum. PLANS has no
formal comment on Waldorf curriculum, but one [award winning] public school
teacher, involved with Waldorf inclusion in the public sector since 1992,
is considering authoring an article on that aspect. I hope that she does.
The difficulty with Waldorf is the lack of critical evaluation component.
Unlike other curriculum public schools test, things start to get personal
fast. The teachers that "buy in" to WE circle their wagons. Two public
school teachers affirmed they have never experienced this behavior before.
Also, when spiritual beliefs clash, the public school teachers seem to
fight "spiritual science" with their own personal beliefs. A good example,
IMO, of why the wall of separation is so important. Teachers who have
_never_ felt the need to bring in spirituality to the class room feel
compelled to "judge" Steiner's "spiritual science." Hence, a very emotional
response on _both_ sides.
))
))In short, public educators--from classroom teachers on up to the
))Superintendent of Schools--have expended significant effort to bring Waldorf
))methods into the local public school system. Why do you think they did this?
)) Assuming they were not fools, what was it about these methods that they saw
))as valuable enough to justify that effort?
I think most people believe that the Waldorf method is non-sectarian. After
all, every promotional document that comes out of Waldorf schools seems to
ardently state this claim. Steiner-definers have done a fine promotional
job in this regard. Oak Ridge teachers chose Waldorf _over_ Montessori and
another methodology (I can't remember _what_ methodology) that they had
tried before. Face it, Waldorf _sounds_ extremely appealing. I loved my
children's Waldorf school. It is only after I got intimately involved that
the questions arose. Dan says that _most_ people attracted to teaching are
idealists. This methodology sounds ideal. I certainly fit into the idealist
parent mold when I brought my children to Waldorf.
Most parents know very little about Anthroposophy, even in private Waldorf
schools and even after many years of involvement. Steiner-ites are good at
keeping the "spiritual science" esoteric.
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n389.4 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Lively meeting in Leeuwarden (The Netherlands) on
Anthroposophy
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:32:31 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199705121710.KAA26101 lists1.best.com)
)Lively debate on Anthroposophy in Leeuwarden (The Netherlands)
Herman writes,
[snip]
I mentioned the history of occultism
)since the 1840s, basing myself partly on my Ph. D. thesis on Theosophical
)Society history: first Spiritualism, then Theosophy, then Anthroposophy.
Herman,
Could you possibly write a few paragraphs that will help us understand some
basic beliefs of Theosophy ? I'm very interested in this.
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n389.5 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: Lively meeting in Leeuwarden (The Netherlands) on
Anthroposophy
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:50:36 +0200 (MET DST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At 05:43 AM 13/5/97 +0100, Steve Tonkin wrote:
)Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
)
)[snip many old allegations on racism which have already been adequately
)dealt with in this list]
Well ... have they really been adequately
dealt with? No-one from The Netherlands has contributed before. As for the
United States, read for instance the articles on this by Dan Dugan, and by
Ida Oberman on the PLANS web site. Read the German historian Helmut Zander's
contribution on Steiner to Handbuch zur 'V=F6lkischen Bewegung' 1871-1918.=
=20
)) However, I
))heard from a South African that Waldorf schools in South Africa taught=
only
))European fairy tales,=20
)
)That scurrilous allegation is entirely false.
)
)I'm sure that the teachers at Inkanyezi school
I cannot speak for this particular school. Some schools may differ from
others; certainly after the fall of apartheid.
)(and others in South
)Africa) would be surprised to learn that, according to Mr de Tollenaere
)and his informants,
A South African university professor
=20
)many of the tales they use are not, as they had
)previously thought, their own cultural heritage.=20
)
)Anyone wishing to verify that African tales *are* in the curriculum of
)South African Waldorf schools is referred to _Curriculum for the Waldorf
)Schools of South Africa_, published 1991
1991; yes, when apartheid was doomed. Read the quotation from the 1980s by a
leading South African Anthroposophist, still in principle defending
apartheid then, in Dan Dugan's collection at the PLANS web sire.
How about curricula, published before 1991?
)--
)Stephen Tonkin
)
)
Please, more facts and arguments, and less emotional jumping to conclusions,
Stephen.
Greetings,
Herman de Tollenaere
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n389.6 ---------------
From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:08:03 -0400 (EDT)
In response to the following question addressed to Deby Snell:
"In short, public educators--from classroom teachers on up to the
Superintendent of Schools--have expended significant effort to bring Waldorf
methods into the local public school system. Why do you think they did
this?
Assuming they were not fools, what was it about these methods that they saw
as valuable enough to justify that effort?"
...David McKay replied:
"MONEY, MINIMAL RESEARCH, CONTROL ISSUES, CLOSE MINDED, HUMAN ERROR, 1st
IMPRESSION "FEEL GOOD", IGNORANT, MONEY, ETC. (it always comes back to
the bottom line, follow the money)."
And what money would that be, David?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n389.7 ---------------
From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: Lively meeting in Leeuwarden (The Netherlands) on Anthroposophy
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:31:47 -0400 (EDT)
As a further comment related to Stephen Tonkin's points on the content of
myths used in South African Waldorf Schools, I note the recent publication by
Rudolf Steiner Press of "Hear the Voice of the Griot!" by Betty Staley, one
of the leaders of the High School training program at Rudolf Steiner College.
This substantial work (over 400 pages) includes sections on African history,
geography, art, music, games, food, and a large section covering fairy tales,
fables, myths and poems.
The foreword is by Wilson C. Riles, who was the first African-American to
become the State Superintendent of Public Instruction in California. Riles
says, "...Betty Staley has brought together elements of African life in a
comprehensive resource for teachers and parents. The title, "Hear the Voice
of the Griot!", refers to the storytellers who carried the responsibility of
passing on traditions by word of mouth. They were historians, the educators
of moral behavior, who held the legacy of their people and captured
imaginations of the people in the villages. Through the stories and songs,
the people recognized their identities and strengthened their sense of
community. Ms. Staley brings the history of Africa alive with biographies
and enlivens the geography of the continent with vivid descriptions of land
forms, plants and animals.
"One of my priorities [as State Superintendent] was to implement
intercultural educational programs to insure that students appreciate and
understand our nation's rich multi-ethnic heritage. "Hear the Voice of the
Griot!" will make a significant contribution toward that goal."
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n389.8 ---------------
From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:53:17 -0400 (EDT)
Deby, thanks for your prompt reply to my questions on the background of Oak
Ridge and your take on the reasons for the initiative of public educators in
Sacramento to bring Waldorf methods into the local public schools. However,
I was trying to get at the pedagogical theory behind this initiative.
Let me see if I can frame my question more clearly. Whether or not Waldorf
schools are non-sectarian, it is clear that public schools must be
non-sectarian, so that should not be an issue in terms of motivation behind
the initiative. Whether or not teaching methods and style in a Waldorf
schools have an element of spirituality to them, there are well-defined
guidelines for what may be brought into a public school in this regard. I
assume that a Superintendent of Schools, like the one who asked for Waldorf
methods to be adopted in Sacramento's public schools, would be aware of these
facts. You believe, and evidently some parents and teachers at Oak Ridge
believe, that there has been inadequate freeing of Waldorf methods from a
spiritual dimension, but it certainly could not have been the primary intent
of the initiators of the program to bring spirituality into the public
schools.
So I assume that the primary motivation behind the initiative had to do with
a theory of learning that these eduators saw being played out in Waldorf
educational methods. Not Steiner's theory, of course--or certainly not
expressed in Steiner's terms--but still a contemporary theory for which they
saw WE as a useful confirming instance, one worth emulating.
Do you have any perception of what that theory might be? I would understand
if you don't, because you seem to be focused primarily on the issues
spirituality, but I thought in your analysis of Oak Ridge you might have come
across this information.
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n389 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n390 --------------
001 - mckay oro.net - Re: Oak Ridge
002 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: Oak Ridge
003 - mckay oro.net - Re: FW: Hooked on Phonics, Phonics Game
004 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Correction (was Re: Oak Ridge)
005 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Re: Lively meeting in Leeuwarden (The Netherlands) on
Anthro
006 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: Lively meeting in Leeuwarden (The Netherlands) on Anthrop
007 - wrensong monitor.net - Re: FW: Hooked on Phonics, Phonics Game
008 - mckay oro.net - Re: FW: Waldorf and religion
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n390.1 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:19:56 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)In response to the following question addressed to Deby Snell:
)
)"In short, public educators--from classroom teachers on up to the
) Superintendent of Schools--have expended significant effort to bring Waldorf
) methods into the local public school system. Why do you think they did
)this?
) Assuming they were not fools, what was it about these methods that they saw
) as valuable enough to justify that effort?"
)
)...David McKay replied:
)
)"MONEY, MINIMAL RESEARCH, CONTROL ISSUES, CLOSE MINDED, HUMAN ERROR, 1st
) IMPRESSION "FEEL GOOD", IGNORANT, MONEY, ETC. (it always comes back to
) the bottom line, follow the money)."
)
)And what money would that be, David?
Well I can think of at least three examples; The first and most obvious is
our tax dollars that are funding WE at a public school. On top of that the
state Dept. of Ed. recievied a $350,000 Federal grant, of which $100,000
went directly to the Steiner College for the purpose of Re-training public
school teachers in WE methodology. The second was a grant from the Kellogg
Foundation for $100,000 to the Steiner College to infuse WE into Public
Ed. thru WE Teacher Training for public school teachers. The third is the
WE Public "Charter Schools". Our local Public Waldorf Charter School has
been a great "Money-Maker" for the Twin Ridges School District for the past
3 years, getting 25% off the top of the ADA money, about $250,000 per
year. In these money tight times since Prop 13 and with School Bonds in
this state not fairing too well over the last several elections, the above
mentioned aren't chicken feed. The offer of easy to get funding makes it
VERY easy to take with out looking very deep at what your buying/getting,
*especially* when the Federal Government says "here, as an experiment, this
money is to infuse WE into the public schools".
With the typical glossing over by Waldorf Institutions like Steiner College
and the WE Trainers that gives such a nice and "user friendly" impression,
it is quite easy for anyone to be fooled. You know and everyone else that
has read or contributed to this list, as well as the Waldorf list, that
many people feel that there should be an honest, upfront, "Full Disclosure
Statement" from the offical WE Institions such as AWSNA, Steiner College
and all the Waldorf schools. I won't hold my breath.
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n390.2 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:51:56 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199705140254.TAA00213 lists1.best.com)
)Deby, thanks for your prompt reply to my questions on the background of Oak
)Ridge and your take on the reasons for the initiative of public educators in
)Sacramento to bring Waldorf methods into the local public schools. However,
)I was trying to get at the pedagogical theory behind this initiative.
)
)Let me see if I can frame my question more clearly. Whether or not Waldorf
)schools are non-sectarian, it is clear that public schools must be
)non-sectarian, so that should not be an issue in terms of motivation behind
)the initiative. Whether or not teaching methods and style in a Waldorf
)schools have an element of spirituality to them, there are well-defined
)guidelines for what may be brought into a public school in this regard. I
)assume that a Superintendent of Schools, like the one who asked for Waldorf
)methods to be adopted in Sacramento's public schools, would be aware of these
)facts. You believe, and evidently some parents and teachers at Oak Ridge
)believe, that there has been inadequate freeing of Waldorf methods from a
)spiritual dimension, but it certainly could not have been the primary intent
)of the initiators of the program to bring spirituality into the public
)schools.
I agree that it was not the intention of the school board or _anyone_ to
bring religious beliefs in the public schools. The fact, as we were told,
is that the Superintendent has _not_ checked into Waldorf, The Curriculum
Review Board has not checked into Waldorf, California State Department of
Education's Legal Council was not consulted about Waldorf, and the teachers
had little to go on except the claims and beautiful text books to go on.
The oral language components of Waldorf seems to be a selling point with
the officials. I think the responsible parties are in the process of
receiving a wake-up call. I hope they listen.
)
)So I assume that the primary motivation behind the initiative had to do with
)a theory of learning that these eduators saw being played out in Waldorf
)educational methods. Not Steiner's theory, of course--or certainly not
)expressed in Steiner's terms--but still a contemporary theory for which they
)saw WE as a useful confirming instance, one worth emulating.
Sadly, I think Oak Ridge is a school which the officials don't know what to
do with. 85% of the school population speaks English as a second language.
Many parents do not speak English at all. It is a gang infested
neighborhood with many poor people. Because Oak Ridge has the largest
percentage of minorities in the entire Sacramento City Unified School
District, they (The Superintendent and Principal) felt Oak Ridge was a good
candidate for a magnet, or specialty school. My understanding of the
purpose of magnet schools is to attract segments of the population from
other neighborhoods, thus a form of desegregation occurs. The district is
hoping to attract some of the population (white) that the school needs. In
order to make room for the white children, school officials need to
transfer some of the families, such as Hmong, that are too dense [in the
neighborhood] to other schools within the district.
That motivation seems to be the seed of Waldorf. Waldorf was chosen over
two other curriculums, in the course of one meeting. (Not much time and
thought went into it, IMO.) I think that Waldorf infusion is simply an
attempt to equal out the percentages of the population. Cultural
backgrounds [and their compatibility with Waldorf] were not considered much
because the school is filled to capacity now, and they _need_ people to
leave in order to make room for the "white" families they need to attract
as part of their magnet status. Some of the difficulties include the fact
that many families do not drive. They don't want to leave their
neighborhood school. And they don't seem to want Waldorf. They want
technology and computers, not knitting needles. And culturally, many of the
people's personal beliefs are incompatible with Waldorf. They object to
nature tables in classrooms, no U.S. History, and no _flags_. These people
are new citizens, and proud of it.
Keep in mind, Rigby. You asked for my thoughts. While I believe they are
accurate, they remain only my thoughts. Dan and Kathleen may have different
ideas, and they were there too.
Deby
)Do you have any perception of what that theory might be? I would understand
)if you don't, because you seem to be focused primarily on the issues
)spirituality, but I thought in your analysis of Oak Ridge you might have come
)across this information.
)
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n390.3 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: FW: Hooked on Phonics, Phonics Game
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:00:21 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On Tuesday, May 13, 1997 4:16 PM, Arthur Fink wrote a response to the
question below:
))To: WALDORF MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
))Subject: Hooked on Phonics, Phonics Game
))
)))My son, age 8 1/2, is just finishing 2nd grade in a Waldorf School. He
)))doesn't read very well yet and my mother is concerned about his reading
)))skills. She would like to get him either "Hooked on Phonics" or "The
)))Phonics Game". Is anyone on this list familiar with either of these? I'm
)))concerned about how they work and if it would interfere with the learning
)))through the Waldorf school.
Arthurs answers:
))Trust the process.
This is my biggest objection to staunch supporters of WE. To ask parents
to "Trust the process" is asking a lot, especially since WE doesn't do any
exit polls of parents/students for whom the "just trust" didn't work, and
don't bother to pass on if they did.
))
))My stepson was barely reading at 2nd grade, and through most of third.
))
))Then he got the bug, and we couldn't take books out of his hands. Now he's
))a film maker in New York.
What did the "bug" he got have to do with WE? How much did WE have to do
with him becoming a film maker? He would have had to have *modern*
technical training using computerized editing equipment, computerized
motion picture cameras, and computerized sound editing equipment. He got
all that at a Waldorf school?
))
))Reading in a Waldorf School is taught with a sense of rhythm, form, and
))beauty. It's not just a set of techniques, but a way to open oneself to
))poetry and magic. What a shame to dilute this with a much more technical
))approach.
It *is* a set of techniques, Waldorf/Anthroposophy techniques. Arthur
makes the assumption that other teaching methods can't be taught with a
sense of rythm, form, and beauty. Typical Waldorf Pretentiousness.
))
))If you think there is a real blockage, speak with the teacher. Waldorf
))teachers doesn't blithly ignore real physical or perceptual problems (e.g.
))dyslexia).
Waldorf is a *closed* system, so if your child is having problems the only
solutions offered are Waldorf/Anthroposopical judgments, from the Waldorf
community. The WE child development model, including the four
temperments, along with the *lack* of *real* psychological training by WE
teacher training leaves a lot to be desired.
))
))You might also try to get your mother to attend some school functions, to
))see how the third and fourth graders are managing. She could be quite
))impressed.
True, but it is easy to impress any novice on any subject or method.
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n390.4 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Correction (was Re: Oak Ridge)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:05:47 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199705140617.XAA23598 lists1.best.com)
David McKay writes,
On top of that the
)state Dept. of Ed. recievied a $350,000 Federal grant, of which $100,000
)went directly to the Steiner College for the purpose of Re-training public
)school teachers in WE methodology. The second was a grant from the Kellogg
)Foundation for $100,000 to the Steiner College to infuse WE into Public
)Ed. thru WE Teacher Training for public school teachers.
One correction, David. The Kellogg Foundation gave a $50,000. grant to
infuse WE into the public schools. They also gave $30,000. to AWSNA.
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n390.5 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: Lively meeting in Leeuwarden (The Netherlands) on
Anthroposophy
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:37:47 +0200 (MET DST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:32 AM 13/5/97 -0700, Deby wrote:
))Lively debate on Anthroposophy in Leeuwarden (The Netherlands)
)
)Herman writes,
)
))I mentioned the history of occultism
))since the 1840s, basing myself partly on my Ph. D. thesis on Theosophical
))Society history: first Spiritualism, then Theosophy, then Anthroposophy.
)
)
)Herman,
)Could you possibly write a few paragraphs that will help us understand some
)basic beliefs of Theosophy ? I'm very interested in this.
)Deby
For a 470 page reply, see my Ph. D. book The Politics of Divine Wisdom. You
can find a summary of it at my new web site, http://stad.dsl.nl/~hermantl.
There you will also find a lecture from last year on Theosophy.
In a few paragraphs:
The Theosophical Society was founded in 1875. To become a member of the
Society as known to public, the 'exoteric' Society, you only have to believe
in 'the brotherhood of humanity'.
However, books by Theosophical leaders like Madame Blavatsky or C.W.
Leadbeater are much more specific. There also is an Esoteric Section with
more specific beliefs, hierarchy, and discipline, within the Theosophical
Society. According to critical ex-members like Brooks (the tutor of young
Jawaharlal Nehru) it really ran the 'exoteric' Society from behind the
scenes. Rudolf Steiner became its Arch Warden for Austria and Germany in 1904.
Theosophists see Theosophy as the synthesis of all religions and sciences.
The parts of the ideas in religions and sciences which agree (or seem to
agree) with Theosophy they see as the 'esoteric', more important parts.
Those parts which do not agree with Theosophy are the exoteric parts,
considered less important.
Theosophists oppose the ideas of most scientists as 'materialist'.
They believe in human evolution; not from animals, but from the Divine
Principle back to the Divine Principle. This evolution goes through
so-called Root Races, like the third Root Race, the Lemurians (of whom
Australian Aborigines, for instance, are supposed to be the 'degenerate'
descendants); the fourth Root Race, the Atlanteans (of whom American
Indians, for instance, are supposed to be the 'degenerate' descendants); and
Aryans, the Fifth Root Race.
(I must add here that very recently, a prominent member of a small
Theosophical group in The Netherlands has dissociated himself from
Theosophical racial theories, quoting also critical writings by outsiders as
the reason for this.)
Theosophists believe in karma and reincarnation as the universal divine law
(there are differences with Hindu or Buddhist doctrines on this, which would
take up too much space here if I would explain).
Theosophists believe in paranormal healing, astrology, angels, archangels,
gnomes, and nature spirits. They believe in inhabitants of the Moon and of
other planets of the solar system; and in a long history of interplanetary
travel.
They believe in a spiritual hierarchy of superhuman Masters. Many (not all)
are supposed to live in the Himalayas, like Master Morya, Master Kut Humi,
and Master Djwal Kul. Usually not in the Himalayas are the Count of Saint
Germain (known now from the Church Universal and Triumphant); and the
Masters Jesus and Christian Rosenkreutz, with whom Rudolf Steiner claimed a
special relationship.
Rosenkreutz, according to believers, was a medieval knight. Most historians
see him as a character of seventeenth century fiction. Except for one small
organization in England, all organizations calling themselves Rosicrucian
today are derived from Theosophy in one way or another. This also goes for
many other occult organizations of today.
Greetings,
Herman de Tollenaere
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n390.6 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Lively meeting in Leeuwarden (The Netherlands) on Anthroposophy
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:53:00 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: (199705132054.NAA01340 lists1.best.com)
Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
HdT
))) However, I
)))heard from a South African that Waldorf schools in South Africa taught only
)))European fairy tales,
))
ST
))That scurrilous allegation is entirely false.
))
))I'm sure that the teachers at Inkanyezi school
)
HdT
)I cannot speak for this particular school. Some schools may differ from
)others; certainly after the fall of apartheid.
ST
No, Dr de Tollenaere, you cannot speak for Inkanyezi School and your
contributions so far on this topic lead me to question with what
authority you can speak for any South African Waldorf school at any
time, before or after apartheid.
Your allegation was that South African Waldorf schools taught "*only*
[my emphasis, your word] European fairy tales". That allegation is, Dr
de Tollenaere, blatantly and demonstrably false.
My first connection with SA Waldorf schools was in the early 1980s.
African tales were used then as you could, if you chose to, easily
verify (I assume someone with a PhD recognises the importance of
verifying hearsay, even if it does come from a professor).
I admit that I cannot prove in this list that these tales were of
African origin, but:
#1. *I* am not levelling the allegation that only European tales were
used; the onus is on you to substantiate that allegation.
#2. African people believed these tales were of African origin. It is a
an old racist trick to claim that anything a white man values in black
culture must be of European origin. Is that why you and your pet
professor claim that these tales, which Africans believe to be African,
were in fact European?
Given the documented (don't take my word for it, Dr de Tollenaere --
check it with SAPA-Reuter) stand of South African Waldorf schools
*against* aspects of apartheid in the 1980s, I begin to wonder if that
is why you are so intent on distorting the truth about their curriculum
and practices?
Yes, Dr de Tollenaere, you have touched a raw point -- I spent several
years between 1969 and 1983 actively combatting racism in southern
Africa (and was imprisoned and beaten for it on more than one occasion)
-- it gets my craw when some "liberal" starts spouting off from the
cushioned safety of Europe about something about which he gives every
indication of knowing next to nothing (in this instance, African culture
and its place in the curriculum of South African Waldorf schools).
HdT
)Please, more facts and arguments
ST
You would do well to stick to your own advice.
--
Stephen Tonkin
*** It would be a wonderful thing if racist bigotry was fatal ***
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n390.7 ---------------
From: wrensong monitor.net
Subject: Re: FW: Hooked on Phonics, Phonics Game
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:01:06 -0700 (PDT)
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At 12:00 AM 5/14/97 +0100, mckay oro.net wrote:
)On Tuesday, May 13, 1997 4:16 PM, Arthur Fink wrote a response to the
)question below:
)
)))To: WALDORF MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
)))Subject: Hooked on Phonics, Phonics Game
)))
))))My son, age 8 1/2, is just finishing 2nd grade in a Waldorf School. He
))))doesn't read very well yet and my mother is concerned about his reading
))))skills. She would like to get him either "Hooked on Phonics" or "The
))))Phonics Game". Is anyone on this list familiar with either of these? I'm
))))concerned about how they work and if it would interfere with the learning
))))through the Waldorf school.
I missed this question, but I'd advise against Hooked on Phonics--not a such
a bad idea, but deadly repetitive and boring compared to what it has to be.
If the question came from someone outside this loop, I'd appreciate having
this forwarded to him. I ran across a program I thought was really
fantastic--enough that I even called the company to ask about being a sales
rep, but decided it wasn't worth it when I found out Toys R Us is already
carrying it for less than $100. It's called Leap Frog, and is multi-sensory,
which is very important. It's a computerized box with picture cards you can
put on it, and then insert plastic letters into cut out words under the
picture: for instance, CAT. Then you can press each letter and hear the
sound of it, and then the whole word will be pronounced as you finish. Or
you can even set it to say the name of each letter. It includes sets of
vowel/consonant combinations such as AR, so you can hear the different sound
A makes when combined with R. They'll be able to decode reading after
playing with it for not that long. I later saw a t.v. show about it in which
it showed whole families who were learning to read from it--not an
infomercial, but a regular news show. It's fun and it's enough of a toy that
I think kids would really enjoy and learn from it--and it's something that
can be used at their own pace. Contrary to what WE teaches, I've found with
so many kids that the truest long lasting learning tends to come from inside
and from self-directed learning rather than from external teaching. I'll dig
up the company's phone number and post it. I'm really excited about the thing!
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n390.8 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: FW: Waldorf and religion
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:45:55 +0100
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))From: Stuart Cohen
))Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 1997 6:04 AM
))To: WALDORF MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
))Subject: Re: Waldorf and religion
Since Linda is/was a regular contributor to this list for some time maybe
she could share why she withdrew her children from WE. I sincerely hope
that she and her family are doing OK and I know that for what ever the
reasons were, this can be a difficult transition, as our family is still
working things out after two years since starting to leave WE.
))My friend Linda Hoffman is now off the list, probably permanently. For the
))record, the religious issue was not the driving force in her and her husband
))Charlie's decision to withdraw their children from WE.
))
))Stuart Cohen
))Marblelhead, MA
))
)
)
)snell oro.net
)http://www.waldorfcritics.org
)People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n390 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n391 --------------
001 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: FW: Waldorf and religion
002 - levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk - Re: FW: Hooked on Phonics, Phonics Game
003 - levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk - good experiences
004 - Steve Premo (premo cruzio - Re: FW: Waldorf and religion
005 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: good experiences
006 - mckay oro.net - Re: good experiences
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n391.1 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: FW: Waldorf and religion
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 17:52:10 +1200
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In-Reply-To: (199705150244.TAA08172 lists1.best.com)
David Mckay posted a note about Linda Hoffman withdrawing her children from
a Waldorf school and from this list and wondering why they left, as it
supposedly wasn't the "religious" issue.
For my (KOPP's) part, I would be tempted to hope that it was because, as a
scientist, she finally -- despite defending Stein/Dorf/Pop and its weird
curriculum here all along -- realised that what is taught is just too far
out of the bounds of reality for her children to make use of in real life
in the modern world.
Whatever, I add my voice to the hopes that she will share with us their
reasons, if they are not too private or painful.
As a parent undergoing withdrawal pains (one out, one to go, nothing is
easy and everyone loses something -- except the school, which doesn't care)
I know that there can be reasons one cannot share, and I respect that.
I also truly hope that our sometimes acerbic list was not a negative factor
for her.
I wish Linda and her family only the best.
)))From: Stuart Cohen
)))Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 1997 6:04 AM
)))To: WALDORF MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
)))Subject: Re: Waldorf and religion
)
)Since Linda is/was a regular contributor to this list for some time maybe
)she could share why she withdrew her children from WE. I sincerely hope
)that she and her family are doing OK and I know that for what ever the
)reasons were, this can be a difficult transition, as our family is still
)working things out after two years since starting to leave WE.
)
)
)))My friend Linda Hoffman is now off the list, probably permanently. For the
)))record, the religious issue was not the driving force in her and her husband
)))Charlie's decision to withdraw their children from WE.
)))
)))Stuart Cohen
)))Marblelhead, MA
)))
))
))
))snell oro.net
))http://www.waldorfcritics.org
))People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n391.2 ---------------
From: levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk)
Subject: Re: FW: Hooked on Phonics, Phonics Game
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:50:55 +0100 (BST)
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In-Reply-To: (199705140658.XAA03826 lists1.best.com)
Typical Waldorf Pretentiousness - says David McKay.
Typical Waldorf Generalisation.
On Wed, 14 May 1997 mckay oro.net wrote:
) On Tuesday, May 13, 1997 4:16 PM, Arthur Fink wrote a response to the
) question below:
)
) ))To: WALDORF MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
) ))Subject: Hooked on Phonics, Phonics Game
) ))
) )))My son, age 8 1/2, is just finishing 2nd grade in a Waldorf School. He
) )))doesn't read very well yet and my mother is concerned about his reading
) )))skills. She would like to get him either "Hooked on Phonics" or "The
) )))Phonics Game". Is anyone on this list familiar with either of these? I'm
) )))concerned about how they work and if it would interfere with the learning
) )))through the Waldorf school.
)
) Arthurs answers:
)
) ))Trust the process.
)
) This is my biggest objection to staunch supporters of WE. To ask parents
) to "Trust the process" is asking a lot, especially since WE doesn't do any
) exit polls of parents/students for whom the "just trust" didn't work, and
) don't bother to pass on if they did.
)
) ))
) ))My stepson was barely reading at 2nd grade, and through most of third.
) ))
) ))Then he got the bug, and we couldn't take books out of his hands. Now he's
) ))a film maker in New York.
)
) What did the "bug" he got have to do with WE? How much did WE have to do
) with him becoming a film maker? He would have had to have *modern*
) technical training using computerized editing equipment, computerized
) motion picture cameras, and computerized sound editing equipment. He got
) all that at a Waldorf school?
)
) ))
) ))Reading in a Waldorf School is taught with a sense of rhythm, form, and
) ))beauty. It's not just a set of techniques, but a way to open oneself to
) ))poetry and magic. What a shame to dilute this with a much more technical
) ))approach.
)
) It *is* a set of techniques, Waldorf/Anthroposophy techniques. Arthur
) makes the assumption that other teaching methods can't be taught with a
) sense of rythm, form, and beauty. Typical Waldorf Pretentiousness.
)
) ))
) ))If you think there is a real blockage, speak with the teacher. Waldorf
) ))teachers doesn't blithly ignore real physical or perceptual problems (e.g.
) ))dyslexia).
)
) Waldorf is a *closed* system, so if your child is having problems the only
) solutions offered are Waldorf/Anthroposopical judgments, from the Waldorf
) community. The WE child development model, including the four
) temperments, along with the *lack* of *real* psychological training by WE
) teacher training leaves a lot to be desired.
)
) ))
) ))You might also try to get your mother to attend some school functions, to
) ))see how the third and fourth graders are managing. She could be quite
) ))impressed.
)
) True, but it is easy to impress any novice on any subject or method.
)
) David McKay
)
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n391.3 ---------------
From: levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk)
Subject: good experiences
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:31:31 +0100 (BST)
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In-Reply-To: (199705150715.AAA18682 lists1.best.com)
Just spent the last year talking to a lot of people (nearly a hundred) -
either
parents or former pupils of Steiner schools in the UK who:
1. Are extremely happy about the education they either received or are
providing for their children
2. Are well aware of the anthropopsophical content underpinning it.
3. Do not believe that Anthroposophy is a religion or a cult
4. Are NOT anthroposophists
5. Seem to be quite well balanced, critical individuals.
NOw, let's have some of the usual insults, generalisations and nasy
comments which some of you are so good AT, PARTICULARLY WHEN some
information is presented to you that contradicts your views.
Paul Levy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n391.4 ---------------
From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: FW: Waldorf and religion
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:47:17 +0000
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References: (199705150244.TAA08172 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199705150715.AAA18682 lists1.best.com)
On 15 May 97 , Michael Kopp wrote:
) David Mckay posted a note about Linda Hoffman withdrawing her children from
) a Waldorf school and from this list and wondering why they left, as it
) supposedly wasn't the "religious" issue.
)
) For my (KOPP's) part, I would be tempted to hope that it was because, as a
) scientist, she finally -- despite defending Stein/Dorf/Pop and its weird
) curriculum here all along -- realized that what is taught is just too far
) out of the bounds of reality for her children to make use of in real life
) in the modern world.
The "religion issue" of which Stuart spoke was the issue of Waldorf's
predominately Christian orientation, and how that affects Jewish Waldorf
students and their families. It was not the issue of teaching
pseudo-science or "revealed knowledge" in place of real science and
history.
Steve Premo
Santa Cruz, California
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n391.5 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: good experiences
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 07:02:56 +1200
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References: (199705150715.AAA18682 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199705150933.CAA04953 lists1.best.com)
Paul Levy wrote:
)Just spent the last year talking to a lot of people (nearly a hundred) -
)either
)parents or former pupils of Steiner schools in the UK who:
)
)1. Are extremely happy about the education they either received or are
)providing for their children
)2. Are well aware of the anthropopsophical content underpinning it.
)3. Do not believe that Anthroposophy is a religion or a cult
)4. Are NOT anthroposophists
)5. Seem to be quite well balanced, critical individuals.
)
)NOw, let's have some of the usual insults, generalisations and nasy
)comments which some of you are so good AT, PARTICULARLY WHEN some
)information is presented to you that contradicts your views.
Well, I (KOPP) will try to oblige with the "nasy" [sic] comments:
Paul,
What's your point? That some people are happy with Waldorf?
All that means is that PT Barnum (a cultist of sorts, I think) was right
when he said: "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of
the people some of the time; but you can't fool all of the people all of
the time".
The way I read your report is that you want to replace the Waldorf Critics'
comments, which you and the other defenders have continually claimed are
_unrelaible_, negatively biased hearsay, with what you believe to be the
opposite, but of course _reliable_ hearsay of your own recent happy
experience.
Your hearsay about people you've talked to who are happy does nothing to
"contradict [my] views", because I have first-hand bad experiences of
Waldorf education.
The only way you will show up the Waldorf Critics is to use unbiased,
scientific research either on the Waldorf educational methods themselves,
or applied to statistical quality assurance surveys of ALL Waldorf parents
in more than one school -- in other words, if you can produce _evidence_
that contradicts.
Until then, I think the Critics are doing a fine job of letting the
Steiner/Waldorf/Anthroposophy movements expose their own follies. They
don't even need me (or you, or Tonkin, or any other defender of the faith)
to keep up the "nasy" bits.
I repeat: What's your point?
If your year's chats were for some purpose other than chit-chat, perhaps
you will publish your findings in some way that is examinable critically,
instead of simply repeating the party line, as you have above. In other
words, if your year's chats were properly and rigorously constructed and
conducted _work_ that reveals some _evidence_, publish or be damned.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n391.6 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: good experiences
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:44:40 +0100
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On Thur., 15 May '97, Paul Levy wrote:
)Just spent the last year talking to a lot of people (nearly a hundred) -
)either
)parents or former pupils of Steiner schools in the UK who:
I don't doubt that you would be able to find such people, I still have
friends at the Public Waldorf school who would have given you the same
conclusions,
)1. Are extremely happy about the education they either received or are
)providing for their children
)2. Are well aware of the anthropopsophical content underpinning it.
and would say these same things,
)3. Do not believe that Anthroposophy is a religion or a cult
)4. Are NOT anthroposophists
but #4 above is why I would take what they say with a grain of salt. You
can't believe or disbelieve in something in the *truest* sense if you know
nothing about it. So whether these people *believe* Anthroposophy is a
religion/cult or not is mute.
)5. Seem to be quite well balanced, critical individuals.
You use the words "seem to be", that does not imply or mean they are. To
be so contradictory by saying #2, then #'s 3 & 4 is enough to make me think
differently about how "critical" these individuals really are.
)NOw, let's have some of the usual insults, generalisations and nasy
)comments which some of you are so good AT, PARTICULARLY WHEN some
)information is presented to you that contradicts your views.
If speaking the truth by sharing our *all-to-real* experiences or asking
questions is an insult to you or anyone else, then maybe you or whoever
should look at *why* you feel this way. As for this information you have
just presented, it does not "contradict" my view, it completely
*confirms* my view. Both myself and many others have said exactly what you
have just put forth many times on this list (as well as on the Waldorf
list).
David McKay
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n391 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n392 --------------
001 - RigbyL aol.com - Evaluating WE
002 - "Luke Schelly" (lschelly - RE:
003 - "Luke Schelly" (lschelly - RE: venting apology
004 - RigbyL aol.com - Oak Ridge
005 - Steve Premo (premo cruzio - Re: Evaluating WE
006 - "Luke Schelly" (lschelly - RE: good experiences
007 - RigbyL aol.com - Re: Evaluating WE
008 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Re: Oak Ridge
009 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: Oak Ridge
010 - mckay oro.net - RE: good experiences
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n392.1 ---------------
From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Evaluating WE
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:08:24 -0400 (EDT)
Deby -
In a recent post you stated that you are gathering test scores for local
Waldorf students.
The critics of Waldorf education have been strident in their demand for
scientific evidence regarding WE. In order to satisfy that demand, your best
bet would be to accept only scores that are drawn from a double blind
experiment. At minimum, this means that (1) students should be randomly
selected from the general population of students and should be randomly
divided into experimental (Waldorf eduation) and control (conventional
eduation) groups, (2) the teachers for both groups should not know whether or
not they are using Waldorf methods, and (3) the students in both groups
should not know whether they are being taught by Waldorf methods.
If you try to draw conclusions from any lesser experimental design, those
conclusions are likely to regarded by the Waldorf critics as no more than,
"well, religion," to quote one of the Dans.
Good luck,
Rigby
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n392.2 ---------------
From: "Luke Schelly" (lschelly rousewyatt.com)
Subject: RE:
Date: 16 May 1997 11:05:42 -0400
MK asks PL:
)What's your point? That some people are happy with Waldorf?
)
)All that means is that PT Barnum (a cultist of sorts, I think) was right
)when he said: "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of
)the people some of the time; but you can't fool all of the people all of
)the time".
The same can be said of the "critics" and their "show of shows". So, what's
the point?
MK continues:
)The way I read your report is that you want to replace the Waldorf Critics'
)comments, which you and the other defenders have continually claimed are
)_unrelaible_, negatively biased hearsay, with what you believe to be the
)opposite, but of course _reliable_ hearsay of your own recent happy
)experience.
The way I read it is he was just providing some heresay balance to the
regular sputterings of David Mckay that he has talked to so many people and
they all didn't like waldorf. It just puts these kind of claims on the same
level. If someone wants to value it, that's their deal.
MK continues
)Your hearsay about people you've talked to who are happy does nothing to
)"contradict [my] views", because I have first-hand bad experiences of
)Waldorf education.
And if Paul has first-hand good experiences with Waldorf (aside from his
heresay) then that does contradict your views one for one (is anybody keeping
score?)
So,what? Are you implying that Paul and others who have good first-hand
experiences with Waldorf are less intelligent than you? No, you probably
wouldn't admit to that, but you might say that the those that run the Mighty
Waldorf Monolith are soooo masterful at deciet and obfuscation that they can
convince adults to something they should know better than to do, but aren't
even together enough to teach kids elementary education. Uh, right.
MK:
)The only way you will show up the Waldorf Critics is to use unbiased,
)scientific research either on the Waldorf educational methods themselves,
)or applied to statistical quality assurance surveys of ALL Waldorf parents
)in more than one school -- in other words, if you can produce _evidence_
)that contradicts.
First, who ever said that anyone was trying to "show up" anybody? (besides
you.) Maybe Paul was just helping to nudge this discussion in a similar
direction that you have just stated. Maybe he was trying to de-emphasize the
value of the heresay argument by providing counter-heresay.(sorry Paul if this
interpretation of motives offends you.)
Second, as far as 'unbiased' or 'scientific' or 'research' goes, would you
think that the list of stories that Deby Snell is putting together ,or wants
to put together, will have any credibility in any of the above catagories?
Third, is it possible that you could begin a discussion of the criteria or the
methodology or 'the question that is to be answered' by which this unbiased
scientific research could be done? Maybe somewhere out there is a mutually
acceptable question that could be researched in an mutually acceptable
unbiased manner with mutually acceptable scientific methodology. I'm sorry
that the above is worded so poorly, but I think it is very difficult to work
in the human (soft) sciences area to the agreement of all of those concerned.
I think the hardest part will be figuring out what is valued in different
societies.
MK:
) ..if your year's chats were properly and rigorously constructed and
)conducted _work_ that reveals some _evidence_, publish or be damned.
Micheal, does this also apply to David McKay and Deby Snell and all the others
(in any position) who start out by saying "I've talked to alot of folks
and...." too?
Have you any unbiased support for your first-hand experiences? Do you think
it is important/necessary? (remember those Salem witch trials)
in seriousness,
luke schelly
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n392.3 ---------------
From: "Luke Schelly" (lschelly rousewyatt.com)
Subject: RE: venting apology
Date: 16 May 1997 11:30:02 -0400
There may be some things in my last post that are offensive to some. If so, I
apologize. When I write a reply I usually do my venting and rambling first,
so that i get it out of my system. Afterwards (when a cooler head prevails) I
usually go back and undo or tone down what i have written. I was changing the
subject heading and hadn't proofread or gone back through what i wrote when i
spaced out and selected the send icon. Since i don't send a copy of what i
write to myself (but probably should from now on) and i can't remember
everything that i wrote. i want to apologize in advance if anyone is offended
by my initial outbursts or terrible grammer.
sorry
luke
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n392.4 ---------------
From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Oak Ridge
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:31:13 -0400 (EDT)
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Deby, thanks again for your prompt and complete answer to my request for your
views on Oak Ridge.
I share your understanding about the purpose of a magnet program, and it may
be helpful to readers in other countries to clarify this. The general idea
of magnet school programs in the U.S. is to create special programs in inner
city schools that will attract (hence the name) children from the suburbs,
thus accomplishing a voluntary form of integration. Federal funding has been
made available to help local school districts set up such programs, which
they are then expected to sustain.
The Waldorf program at Oak Ridge Elementary School was part of the most
recent round of Federal grant application from the Sacramento Unified School
District, which included, I believe, a total of eight magnet programs. (I
had a chance to look through the application document recently.) Preparation
for the application included a district-wide feasibility study, part of which
was a survey of parents regarding areas of interest. Forty per cent of the
respondents expressed interest in a Waldorf program.
This fits with my impression of the reputation that Waldorf education has in
this area. The Sacramento Waldorf School, a K-12 suburban private school
that typically has 375-400 students, has been in existence for more than 25
years and appears to be well-regarded. Due to its location and its cost,
however, it is inaccessible to most inner city residents. When funding of
the Oak Ridge Waldorf program was announced, one of the City Councilmembers,
who had been a student at Oak Ridge, expressed pleasure that Waldorf
education was coming that school. She said, "When I was growing up, the
Waldorf school was that wonderful school for the kids in the suburbs."
So it is understandable that in Sacramento Waldorf education would become the
focus of a magnet program. As you point out, the fact that Oak Ridge is at
full capacity with children of local residents means that this "magnet" will
likely not be able to attract children from other areas in the near term, but
I can see why it was selected as an attractive program.
As a Federally-funded magnet project, the Oak Ridge Waldorf program has
well-defined objectives and the responsibility to measure and report progress
against those objectives. This program is just completing its first school
year, so it is premature to draw conclusions, but the school is already
reporting increased attendance and significant improvement in English oral
language proficiency among the 83% of children who are learning English.
This seems like a good start, since showing up and knowing how to
communicate are fundamental to any form of education.
A recent fact sheet from Oak Ridge states that the majority of teachers are
enthusiastic about the Waldorf program and its success with the children.
Following are impressions from three of the teachers, as documented in that
fact sheet:
A fourth grade teacher--"Tardiness has virtually vanished and attendance is
up"Ötardiness has virtually vanished and attendance is upÖEnglish language
skills-vocabulary and variety of speech-are improving because of Waldorf's
strong oral language focusÖmath skills are improving, tooÖclass is calmer,
more peaceful, more polite, nicer to each otherÖ"There's a camaraderie. The
children want to stay in at recess to finish work, and help me."
Another fourth grade teacher, a musician--delighted that for the first time
he can integrate music and the arts into his teaching. "The children love
the stories, the movement activities. They ask me for more homework and
would come to school on Saturdays if they could. The go home singing."
A fifth grade teacher--amazed at how fast her fifth graders are learning.
"They love to read, to do math, to sing. I always worked hard, but before
Waldorf the children weren't getting it. They were reluctant to do their
work and many were failing. Now that has changed."
These are only anecdotes and first impressions, of course. It will be
interesting to see over the longer run how both impressions and more
objective measures hold up.
Deby, from what I have seen of the work of PLANS so far, it might better have
the label PAWIAF--People Against Waldorf In Any Form. You yourself have
acknowledged that there are positive aspects of Waldorf methods. Why don't
you look at Oak Ridge as an opportunity to learn how to take advantage of
those positive features while avoiding what you consider to be the weaknesses
of private Waldorf schools (too much spirituality, inadequate science, etc.)?
Do you really believe that the teachers and administrators at Oak Ridge are
unwilling and unable to follow California guidelines regarding the handling
of religious topics in the public classroom? Do you really think they
wouldn't know the appropriate content of math and science instruction, even
if an unconventional method of instruction were used?
It seems to me that PLANS is taking a position that insults the professional
competence and integrity of the Oak Ridge teachers and administrators, as
well as the School District administrators. If you could swallow the bile
that comes with any mention of the "W" word, this would be an opportunity for
you to work in a positive way toward better understanding of how the methods
used in Waldorf schools can properly be brought into a public school setting.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n392.5 ---------------
From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Evaluating WE
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:50:10 +0000
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In-Reply-To: (199705161309.GAA22599 lists1.best.com)
On 16 May 97 , RigbyL aol.com wrote:
) In a recent post you stated that you are gathering test scores for local
) Waldorf students.
)
) The critics of Waldorf education have been strident in their demand for
) scientific evidence regarding WE. In order to satisfy that demand, your best
) bet would be to accept only scores that are drawn from a double blind
) experiment. At minimum, this means that (1) students should be randomly
) selected from the general population of students and should be randomly
) divided into experimental (Waldorf eduation) and control (conventional
) eduation) groups, (2) the teachers for both groups should not know whether or
) not they are using Waldorf methods, and (3) the students in both groups
) should not know whether they are being taught by Waldorf methods.
Rigby,
This is obviously impossible, but I don't understand your point. I can
think of several alternatives, but I don't know which one applies:
1. It is meaningless to compare how students at different schools do on
standardized tests. If this is your point, please explain why this would
be, as long as the students at each school are randomly selected (or,
better yet, as long as all students in each school are tested), the tests
given are identical, and either (a) the scoring of the tests has no
subjective component, i.e., they are multiple choice and not essay tests;
or (b) the people scoring the tests do not know which school the students
are from.
2. You feel the scientific method is silly, and you want to make fun of
it.
3. You are afraid of what the results will show, and want to argue at the
outset that the results will be invalid.
Which is it? Or do you have some other point that I did not get?
Steve Premo
Santa Cruz, California
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n392.6 ---------------
From: "Luke Schelly" (lschelly rousewyatt.com)
Subject: RE: good experiences
Date: 16 May 1997 14:31:43 -0400
David responded to Paul's post
)) Paul wrote:
))Just spent the last year talking to a lot of people (nearly a hundred) -
))either
))parents or former pupils of Steiner schools in the UK who:
David wrote:
)I don't doubt that you would be able to find such people, I still have
)friends at the Public Waldorf school who would have given you the same
)conclusions,
Paul:
))1. Are extremely happy about the education they either received or are
))providing for their children
))2. Are well aware of the anthropopsophical content underpinning it.
David:
)and would say these same things
Paul:
))3. Do not believe that Anthroposophy is a religion or a cult
))4. Are NOT anthroposophists
David:
)but #4 above is why I would take what they say with a grain of salt. You
)can't believe or disbelieve in something in the *truest* sense if you know
)nothing about it. So whether these people *believe* Anthroposophy is a
)religion/cult or not is mute.
Luke writes:
David, maybe the reason that you are so worked up over all of this is that you
have been taking too many grains of salt.(humor)
If they are #2 then what is so difficult to understand? If people are
#2..."well aware"... how can they ..."know nothing about it?" Are you saying
that you have to be a member of the anthroposophical society to understand
anthroposophy enough to discuss it? Does that mean I have to be a member of
the american dental association to know "in the *truest* sense"(whatever that
is) that brushing and flossing is good for the longevity of my teeth and gums.
Or that i have to be a member of the baseball players association to
understand the game of baseball (in the *truest* sense of course). (i do
admit, however, that you have to be of english background to understand the
game of cricket, in any sense)
in this light
I wonder how Pastor Morton can be "well aware" and somehow simultaneously
"know nothing about it" and yet be able to pass worthwhile unbiased judgement
over Waldorf education or anthroposophy. It seems as though you might be
saying that unless he is a member of the AS his criticism must be mute too (as
well as yours and mine and just about everyone else on this list). Or maybe
he is placating his constituency so that while still "knowing nothing" he has
become "well aware" through the voices of those who are tugging the hardest at
his cloaks.
Hey, Ive got an idea, what if we say that you don't have to be a member of the
AS to be well aware or know nothing about it. That way we can all have an
opinion. Afterall one doesn't have to show one's AS member card to take books
out of the library or buy books in the book store or go to the study groups or
attend conferences at Waldorf schools (or in Dornach for that matter)
And David, if you're going to question the intelligence and critical abilities
of Paul's acquaintances, what about all those people that you claim to have
talked to? aren't they equally unreliable as testimonials (as filtered by
David McKay) You haven't given the background or substantiated in any way
any of the people who you claim to have met and talked to.(I refer you to
Micheal about this one.) I think he gave a clear indication of his preference
for this kind of data in his latest post.
Micheal Kopp wrote:
"...if your year's chats were properly and rigorously constructed and
conducted _work_ that reveals some _evidence_, publish or be damned."
back to Paul:
))5. Seem to be quite well balanced, critical individuals.
David adds:
)You use the words "seem to be", that does not imply or mean they are. To
)be so contradictory by saying #2, then #'s 3 & 4 is enough to make me think
)differently about how "critical" these individuals really are.
Luke writes:
"seem to be" is the turn of phrase a reasonable person uses to indicate that
it is their personal observation and maybe are not schooled in making a
professional determination. Since you are able to determine the profile of
all these people from some dozen lines of text, I suggest that you state your
professional qualifications to substantiate these gross generalizations about
people (so that they can be rightfully acknowledged and simultaneously laughed
at) or keep your bigotted remarks to yourself. Hey, Mr. Superior, maybe you
are the one who has a problem with his 1's, 2's, 3's and 4's?
luke
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n392.7 ---------------
From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: Evaluating WE
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:34:05 -0400 (EDT)
Steve--Sorry for the distraction.
My post was primarily a carom shot at the notion that I have seen a few times
here (but not from Deby) that a double blind study is the only truly
scientific basis for deciding on the relative efficacy of a "treatment."
There obviously are many situations that we need to evaluate, like
education, in which this is not a feasible experimental design. In these
situations most interested parties are able to come to a common understanding
about a reasonable standard of evidence; or at least to acknowledge that an
approach other than the double blind study is appropriate.
I don't have much hope of such a common standard of evidence arising in the
context of the WC list.
Rigby
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From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
Date: Fri, 16 May 97 15:23:05 -0700
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Hi Rigby,
You wrote )
)Why don't you [PLANS] look at Oak Ridge as an opportunity to learn how to
)take advantage of those positive features while avoiding what you
)consider to be the weaknesses of private Waldorf schools (too much
)spirituality, inadequate science, etc.)?
Where is the intellectual responsibility within Waldorf and
Anthroposophical institutions to upgrade the "inadequate science?"
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
http://home.earthlink.net/~danielsabsay/ebss
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n392.9 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:51:14 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (199705161532.IAA10832 lists1.best.com)
This program is just completing its first school
)year, so it is premature to draw conclusions, but the school is already
)reporting increased attendance and significant improvement in English oral
)language proficiency among the 83% of children who are learning English.
) This seems like a good start, since showing up and knowing how to
)communicate are fundamental to any form of education.
One reason that Oak Ridge's attendance is up can be attributed to the
enforcement [by school officials] to "crack down" on absenteeism. One Oak
Ridge parent, close to tears, reported [at a public meeting] that she was
being "prosecuted" because her son has missed eight days of school due to
illness. She noted that his sister had only missed two days the entire
year. She stated the "crack down" as a reason that attendance has gone up.
Many parents and teachers spoke in agreement with her statement. To credit
WE with improved attendance figures seems premature until allegations such
as this are investigated. I agree that attendance figures appear to be up
this year, but the reason is in dispute.
Three Waldorf classes, whose teachers _support_ Waldorf inclusion,
volunteered to "study" their classes early to provide "data". Evidence that
Irma Jew offered the parents was incomplete and largely based on three
Waldorf teachers' testamonials. PLANS attended and video taped that meeting
where the "exciting results" were disclosed. When a teacher asked for
specific information about the test scores, the principal did not answer
her question.
)
)A recent fact sheet from Oak Ridge states that the majority of teachers are
)enthusiastic about the Waldorf program and its success with the children.
) Following are impressions from three of the teachers, as documented in tha=
t
)fact sheet:
)A fourth grade teacher--"Tardiness has virtually vanished and attendance is
)up"=D6tardiness has virtually vanished and attendance is up=D6English langu=
age
)skills-vocabulary and variety of speech-are improving because of Waldorf's
)strong oral language focus=D6math skills are improving, too=D6class is calm=
er,
)more peaceful, more polite, nicer to each other=D6"There's a camaraderie. =
The
)children want to stay in at recess to finish work, and help me."
)Another fourth grade teacher, a musician--delighted that for the first time
)he can integrate music and the arts into his teaching. "The children love
)the stories, the movement activities. They ask me for more homework and
)would come to school on Saturdays if they could. The go home singing."
There _are_ good things about WE. But WE doesn't hold the only key. Music
can and is integrated into many schools teaching practices.
)
)A fifth grade teacher--amazed at how fast her fifth graders are learning.
) "They love to read, to do math, to sing. I always worked hard, but before
)Waldorf the children weren't getting it. They were reluctant to do their
)work and many were failing. Now that has changed."
Rigby, in all due respect, you must admit that four testamonials mean
little. These testamonials are carefully edited and designed to _promote_
the school. After your great deal of thought which you placed in the
creation of test scores, I'm a bit surprised that you would wave these
testamonials in front of us "as Proof." Especially in light of our
continual allegations that Waldorf promoters use _only_ testamonials to
promote their schools. I could place 10 testamonials critical of Waldorf
Education. It would hold the same value.
Waldorf could be the _best_ education in the entire world BUT that does not
mean that it is appropriate for public funding. Waldorf promoters should
work within the system to _change_ the law to allow religious schools in
the public sector, not deceive the public with a thinly veiled religious
school. Just because Anthroposophists deny that they are a religion, does
not make it so.
)
)
)These are only anecdotes and first impressions, of course. It will be
)interesting to see over the longer run how both impressions and more
)objective measures hold up.
)
)Deby, from what I have seen of the work of PLANS so far, it might better ha=
ve
)the label PAWIAF--People Against Waldorf In Any Form. You yourself have
)acknowledged that there are positive aspects of Waldorf methods. Why don't
)you look at Oak Ridge as an opportunity to learn how to take advantage of
)those positive features while avoiding what you consider to be the weakness=
es
)of private Waldorf schools (too much spirituality, inadequate science, etc.=
)?
) Do you really believe that the teachers and administrators at Oak Ridge ar=
e
)unwilling and unable to follow California guidelines regarding the handling
)of religious topics in the public classroom? Do you really think they
)wouldn't know the appropriate content of math and science instruction, even
)if an unconventional method of instruction were used ?
Boy, Rigby. If Anthroposophists and Steiner College would come clean with
their beliefs, we may have a discussion here. Yesterday, I observed Steiner
officials claim that PLANS "made up" the public teacher notes from their
public training courses, and deny in front of several teachers who attended
these religious courses, and took very similar notes. Luckily, a couple key
people saw through that tactic. Willful denial looks bad on anyone.
)It seems to me that PLANS is taking a position that insults the professiona=
l
)competence and integrity of the Oak Ridge teachers and administrators, as
)well as the School District administrators. If you could swallow the bile
)that comes with any mention of the "W" word, this would be an opportunity f=
or
)you to work in a positive way toward better understanding of how the method=
s
)used in Waldorf schools can properly be brought into a public school settin=
g.
)
Rigby, it _is_ extremely difficult to sell bridges to people that are not
in the market.
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
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From: mckay oro.net
Subject: RE: good experiences
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:29:38 +0100
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On 5/16/97 Luke Schelly wrote:
)David responded to Paul's post
))) Paul wrote:
)
)))Just spent the last year talking to a lot of people (nearly a hundred) -
)))either
)))parents or former pupils of Steiner schools in the UK who:
)
)David wrote:
))I don't doubt that you would be able to find such people, I still have
))friends at the Public Waldorf school who would have given you the same
))conclusions,
)
)Paul:
)))1. Are extremely happy about the education they either received or are
)))providing for their children
)))2. Are well aware of the anthropopsophical content underpinning it.
)
)David:
))and would say these same things
)
)Paul:
)))3. Do not believe that Anthroposophy is a religion or a cult
)))4. Are NOT anthroposophists
)
)David:
))but #4 above is why I would take what they say with a grain of salt. You
))can't believe or disbelieve in something in the *truest* sense if you know
))nothing about it. So whether these people *believe* Anthroposophy is a
))religion/cult or not is mute.
[snip]
Luke:
) If they are #2 then what is so difficult to understand? If people are
)#2..."well aware"... how can they ..."know nothing about it?"
Nothing is difficult to understand, all #2 says is they are aware of the
Anthro. underpinning, we all know something about a lot of things, that
doesn't mean that because I know to floss my teeth that I know all the
details of dentistry (which, by the way, is a lousy example compared to the
deception of Anthroposophy), nor does it say that any of those people have
a clear, well researched knowledge of Anthroposophy. And yes, they could
quite possibly know nothing more than that it is there.
Luke:
) Are you saying
)that you have to be a member of the anthroposophical society to understand
)anthroposophy enough to discuss it?
No I'm not, and that's what this list is for. It's *what* you talk about
Anthroposophy is or isn't that is important to me, not just "yea I've
heard about it, but my teacher says it's not in the curriculum, and I'm not
an Anthroposophist" B.S..
)I wonder how Pastor Morton can be "well aware" and somehow simultaneously
)"know nothing about it" and yet be able to pass worthwhile unbiased judgement
)over Waldorf education or anthroposophy.
He has his PhD in Comparative Religion, (that's the study of all world
religions in case you don't get it), and he has put in an enormous amount
of time educating himself by reading Steiners books, reading the teacher
training materials, reviewing the Main Lesson books of many students,
talking with Waldorf teachers, and recently going to a couple public
Waldorf schools. If anyone has the training to recognize a religion when
he see's one, it would be him (it's not rocket science).
Luke:
)It seems as though you might be
)saying that unless he is a member of the AS his criticism must be mute too (as
)well as yours and mine and just about everyone else on this list). Or maybe
)he is placating his constituency so that while still "knowing nothing" he has
)become "well aware" through the voices of those who are tugging the hardest at
)his cloaks.
No one's "tugging" at his cloaks. It seems you are very good at *trying*
to put words in others mouths. I never said that anyone had to be a member
of the AS, you did just now in this post, and then you go on as if
everyone had agreed to that. Sorry, but that kind of misleading tactic
doesn't fly on this list.
Luke:
)And David, if you're going to question the intelligence and critical abilities
)of Paul's acquaintances,
Intelligence has nothing to do with Ignorance of what you are getting into,
and if you don't *really* know what you're getting into, how can you be
*critical* about it? For those that *do* know what they are getting into,
so be it. This list is provided to give a completely *open* and
*realistic* information that *is not* provided by anyone in the Waldorf
World and *should* be. If the shoe fits, wear it!
David McKay
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-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n393 --------------
001 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Re: Lively meeting in Leeuwarden (The Netherlands) on
Anthr
002 - RigbyL aol.com - Re: Oak Ridge
003 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: Oak Ridge
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n393.1 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: Lively meeting in Leeuwarden (The Netherlands) on
Anthroposophy
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 20:44:02 +0200 (MET DST)
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At 06:53 PM 14/5/97 +0100, Stephen Tonkin wrote:
)Your allegation was that South African Waldorf schools taught "*only*
)[my emphasis, your word] European fairy tales". That allegation is, Dr
)de Tollenaere, blatantly and demonstrably false.
I did not say 'the' (meaning: all) South African Waldorf schools taught only
European fairy tales. I quoted a South African historian of education on
those Waldorf schools which she knew personally. I quoted her, as one can
see from my account of the debate in Leeuwarden, because a Dutch Waldorf
teacher mentioned fairy tales.
Of course, I meant bigger issues behind the fairy tale issue. (It may
interest people to know that the glossy apartheid government magazines for
propaganda abroad of the 1970s and 1980s, occasionally did have African
fairy tales. So did Radio Bantu, a station of the Apartheid government).
These bigger issues are:
1. What are historical relationships between the Western occult movement, of
which Anthroposophy is part, and (anti-)racism?
2. What are historical links between occult movements, especially in South
Africa, and (anti-)racism?
3. What are historical links between Rudolf Steiner and other
Anthroposophists and (anti-)racism?
4. What are historical links between Anthroposophy, Waldorf schools, and
(anti-)racism, especially in South Africa?
On 1. There already were instances of racism in Spiritualism, the
fountainhead of modern occultism. Theosophy, which grew out of Spiritualism,
and of which Steiner was the leader for Germany 1902-1912, constructed an
occult theory of history as history of races. According to well known
historians like George Mosse ('The mystical origins of National-Socialism'),
Nicholas Gooodrick-Clarke, D. van Arkel, James Webb, and Helmut Zander, the
German V=F6lkisch (proto-nazi racist) movement is unthinkable without these
occult racial theories. In the 1900s, Goodrick-Clarke writes, the Vienna
Lodge of the Theosophical Society was a corporate member of the Guido von
List League, the fan club for the most infamous anti-Semite and occultist
Von List. Both List and Lanz von Liebenfels, also a notorious anti-Semite,
contributed regularly articles to magazines or books to publishing firms
linked to the German Theosophical Society. So did, later, the Baron von
Seebottendorf, founder of the nazi party paper V=F6lkischer Beobachter.=
Arthur
Dinter, the nazi leader for Thuringia, was the author of bestselling novels,
promoting reincarnation doctrine. Nieuw Nederland, the Dutch nazi magazine,
promoted occult reincarnation doctrine. Julius Evola, the translator into
Italian of the notorious Protocols of the Elders of Zion (according to James
Webb, originally published thanks to a member of the Theosophical Society),
... etc. etc. In Australia, ... etc. etc.
Surely, no one thinks that the official Nazi party ideologist, Rosenberg,
got his racial fantasies on Aryans and Atlantis directly from Plato. Hess
...; Himmler ... (see Webb); Hitler himself (see Goodrick-Clarke) ... etc.=
etc.
Of course, I do *not* recall all this to say that most people nowadays who
believe in horoscopes, or channelling, or sun spirits, or things, are like
this. I only mean people should look more critically at the history of their
movement. There are no automatisms or 'laws' in the history of ideas. Yet,
in the cases of quite some individuals in history, accepting irrationalism
of one type (like astrology) led to accepting other types (like racism);
this is the thesis of Theodor Adorno and other contributors to the well
known book The Authoritarian Personality.
On 2. In August 1904, The Theosophist magazine had an article by South
African theosophist W.E. Marsh. Its title was: Should the Native Kaffir be
educated? It concluded that 'the utmost discrimination is necessary'. I will
not repeat the bigotry of the whole article. Bell, an ideologist of
segregation in early twentieth century South Africa, was also very close to
Theosophy. In the 1930s, The Theosophist reminded readers of differences
between 'Aryan' whites, 'Atlantean' Zulus, and 'Lemurian''Kaffirs'.
On 3. As for Steiner, see also my remarks on Theosophy in Germany at Point
1. The German Anthroposophist Thomas H=F6fer has lookead all over Steiner's
works for positive references to black people. He reported in Flensburger
Hefte review that he could not find a single one; however, he did find quite
some negative references. (According to the Dutch Anthroposophist Ploeger,
Steiner never met a single black person). According to the Dutch Waldorf
educator Jaap de Boer, there are 50 to 100 cases of racist statements in
Steiner's works. The American Waldorf educator Ida Oberman (see PLANS web
site article) states that the problem is the combination of the existence of
these statements with dogmatic beliefs in Steiner as infallible in
Anthroposophy and in Waldorf education. Zander concludes that Steiner never
resolved contradictions between potentially racist and potentially
non-racist ideas in his work [and his successors may have had too much
religious reverence for these works to do this].
On 4. Waldorf education was brought to South Africa by the Dutchman Max
Stibbe, who also brought the subject Racial Ethnography to Dutch Waldorf
Schools; with its diagrams which kids draw of black people supposedly being
on the level of 0-7 years old. In Waldorf education in South Africa, until
recently, the overwhelming majority of teachers and pupils were white.=20
Stephen Tonkin wrote:
)Given the documented (don't take my word for it, Dr de Tollenaere --
)check it with SAPA-Reuter) stand of South African Waldorf schools
)*against* aspects of apartheid in the 1980s,
Aspects is a key word here. Everyone, including in the National Party of Mr
Vorster and Botha, was against some aspect or other of apartheid then (so,
they kept changing aspects of policy). The book by leading South African
anthroposophist of that time Downer, quoted at the PLANS web site, supported
apartheid '=EDn principle'. Of course, he too was *against* some 'aspects'.
How about opposition 'in principle'?
)Stephen Tonkin
)
)*** It would be a wonderful thing if racist bigotry was fatal ***
Well said. Does Stephen Tonkin include the 50 to 100 instances of this
'bigotry' which, according to Dutch anthroposophist De Boer, are in Rudolf
Steiner's works?
Herman de Tollenaere
By the way, due to computer problems, I probably will be unable to send
e-mail from 23 May to 8 June. I hope to see everyone back later.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n393.2 ---------------
From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:39:02 -0400 (EDT)
Daniel Sabsay to Rigby:
(( Where is the intellectual responsibility within Waldorf and
Anthroposophical institutions to upgrade the "inadequate science?" ))
Responsibility for improvement in any educational system should be taken by
anybody who sees the needs, and has opportunity and capability to respond to
them.
Rigby
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n393.3 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:12:38 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (199705172040.NAA19926 lists1.best.com)
)Daniel Sabsay to Rigby:
)
)(( Where is the intellectual responsibility within Waldorf and
) Anthroposophical institutions to upgrade the "inadequate science?" ))
)
Rigby writes,
)Responsibility for improvement in any educational system should be taken by
)anybody who sees the needs, and has opportunity and capability to respond to
)them.
)
)Rigby
PLANS sentiments exactly.
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n393 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n394 --------------
001 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Statistics of male/female students in Waldorf high schools
002 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - New Anthroposophical parenting book.
003 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: Statistics of male/female students in Waldorf high schools
004 - levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk - further good experiences
005 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: further good experiences
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n394.1 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Statistics of male/female students in Waldorf high schools
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 21:59:46 +0200 (MET DST)
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According to Dutch government statistics, in 1996 there were 1642 male
students and 2101 female students in Dutch Waldorf high schools (basically,
for the 12-18 years old). In the first grade, the 'gender gap' was about 20%
more female than male students. In the final year, this had increased to 30%.
Comment: Is there a similar 'gender gap' in Waldorf in other countries, or
is this typically Dutch?
Why this 'gender gap'? Do parents have the idea that children learn less of
the useful things, like computing and early reading ability, in Waldorf than
in other schools? And, do they tend to mind this more for their sons than
for their daughters, sending less sons than daughters, and taking them off more?
Conscious and unconscious sexist prejudices, working against girls, and
active in society as it is now, may be at work here. These ideas, put
extremely: 'our son should get good schooling to get a good job. So, no
Waldorf. However, if our daughter graduates from Waldorf with less skills,
it is not as big a problem as with her brother. As long as she knows how to
marry a rich husband'.
Has anyone more ideas or statistics on this?
Herman de Tollenaere
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n394.2 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: New Anthroposophical parenting book.
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 13:12:06 -0700
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I picked up a new "parenting" book at my local bookstore. It is 'Natural
Childhood' by John Thomson. It is touted as "The first practical and
holistic guide for parents of the developing child." It is an
Anthroposophical guide chaulked full of Anthroposophical insight.
Just glancing through the 'Illness of Childhood' section, it says, "The
warmth of the fever is analogus to the warmth that melts sealing wax and
allows the impression of a signet ring to be stamped into it as a sign of
the ownwer's identity." (Dr. Michael Evans and Iain Rodger,
Anthroposophical Medicine.)
"Our current mainstream medicine needs to be expanded through a science of
the spirit. Anthroposophy, for examle, illuminates the spiritual side of
human existence in the form of reincarnation and destiny; illuminates it in
the form of science of spiritual existence as manifest in nature and in
supersensory beings such as angels, archangels, or the majestic seraphim
and cherubim. Religious traditions give an account of it, but they can
only appeal to feeling and belief. Nevertheless, knowledge about this
spiritual side of existence has to be aquired today if we want to do
justice to human development and its associated conditions and necessities."
".....The key question today is: What can we give children to balance the
vaccinations which have deprived the body of a developmental opportunity?
The answer is an education which promotes the soul and spiritual activities
of the child in a specific way so that she learns to take hold of her body
and which, from the soul aspect, helps her to penetrate it better and make
it more individualized."
I just can't _wait_ to digest the whole book. So much to learn, so little
time...
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n394.3 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Statistics of male/female students in Waldorf high schools
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 15:55:49 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (199705182005.NAA17060 lists1.best.com)
)According to Dutch government statistics, in 1996 there were 1642 male
)students and 2101 female students in Dutch Waldorf high schools (basically,
)for the 12-18 years old). In the first grade, the 'gender gap' was about 20%
)more female than male students. In the final year, this had increased to 30%.
)
)Has anyone more ideas or statistics on this?
)
)Herman de Tollenaere
I have long wondered if Steiner's development model works as well for boys
as girls.
At our public Waldorf school, I witnessed boys leaving at a higher rate
than girls, especially in the upper grades. Many boys seemed to get in
trouble a lot, and shaming seemed to be a popular theme in discipline.
Parents, extremely upset over the treatment of their sons, pulled them out
with regularity. One year, in sixth grade alone, 9 boys left the school
starting in December. Many of these families were long-term Waldorf
parents, whose sons had only attended Waldorf schools. The families
"blamed" the teacher, but she held a masters degree in Waldorf and a state
credential too. That is why I question the child development model. Since
she seemed to be well respected in the Anthroposophical community and
college, I wonder if she was only doing her job. Complaints focused on
issues such as boys not given recess for up to a month at a time, boys sent
to second grade [for the day] as punishment. The teacher giving them extra
homework, etc. I was amazed to see dedicated Waldorf families _leaving_ the
school, often with great emotional out bursts. The children were taking
bets on what boy "would be the next to go."
My own son was frequently targeted, but I still feel that it was because
*I* was asking too many questions about Anthroposophy and it's role in
public schools. One teacher called him a liar (in an unproven situation),
he was asked why he thought differently than every other child in the
school, and accused of saying the "F" word during games class, therefore
kicked out of the Pentathlon (Until the child who actually _did_ say the
word admitted it two days later).
I do not know what good testamonies have, but it is my two cents worth.
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n394.4 ---------------
From: levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk)
Subject: further good experiences
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:03:40 +0100 (BST)
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In-Reply-To: (199705170127.SAA07373 lists1.best.com)
For many years the Steiner School in brighton has been independently
inspected by HMI (Her Majesty's Inspectorate). Yet again, the recent
inspection report (publicly available):
- gave an approving report of the school as a whole
- gave specific mention of particular subjects (positive)
- gave constructive criticism
The checklist applied to the school is not unique and is applied across
independent primary schools in general. It was interesting to note how
well aware the inspectors were concerning the anthroposophical roots of
the school. It was also revealing to hear the view expressed that ALL
schools are rooted in some ideology or another, that none have been
Scientifically validated, though some or more widely accepted as methods
than others. The UK education system is rooted in educational ideology
stretching back to the 1940s and 50s. Teachers in the state system are
trained in a range of methods grounded in a wide range of theories. They
apply their judgements in the classroom about which they prefer, within
the limits of the national curriculum. The inspector saw these methods as
"implicit", not brought to the attention of parents in state schools.
Indeed, the inspector was impressed by how much effort the teachers at our
school expend in bringing anthroposophy to the attention of parents. Our
school also holds introductory talks (specifically mentioning
anthroposophy. We sell books and there is are study groups.
The school's weaknesses in the past have included teachers who are zealous
followers of Steiner and are very dogmatic about his ideals. Also there
have been times when parents have joined the school and the school has NOT
made enough effort to inform them about the anthroposophical foundations.
And there have also been times when the supporting study groups and
"information sources" have been poor.
There is a debate currently going on within the school movement in the UK
about government funding. Nationally, we have just declined to join the
national voucher scheme for nursery schools. The reason given by the
movement as a whole was that it would compromise our freedom to act as a
Steiner school. In many view, as a Steiner school governor, this is how it
should
be. Until Steiner education becomes adopted as an "official state approved
school" achieved through democratic mandate (in the UK by being approved
as part of government policy, legitimated by Act of Parliament), it should
remain "private". Many of my colleagues agree but others do not. I agree
with those in PLANS who want Waldorf education to remain "private" and not
subject to state subsidy in the U.S.
A few further points:
Our school is headed by a board of governors. We are legally liable
company directors of the school which is a registered charity. Three of
the four governors are parents or former parents of the school. I am a
research fellow at a local university. None of us are "members" of the
Anthroposophical Society. I use anthroposophical ideas along with many
other ideas in my scientific research work (which is widely published in
the scientific community). The school always struggles to keep going
financially but does so through parental contributions and fund-raising.
We genuinely value criticism from outside and I spend a lot of time
testing out ideas outside of the school. Iwould strongly criticise
teachers who follow anthropsophy dogmatically, who attempt to impose it
"secretively" on parents or children. But I equally crtitise intolerace,
short-sightedness, and dogma in the critics who, all too often, ape the
behaviour of those they rightly seek to criticise.
Paul Levy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n394.5 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: further good experiences
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:18:06 -0700
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References: (199705170127.SAA07373 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199705190905.CAA16490 lists1.best.com)
Paul Levy writes,
[big snip]
But I equally crtitise intolerace,
)short-sightedness, and dogma in the critics who, all too often, ape the
)behaviour of those they rightly seek to criticise.
)
Paul, I _do_ feel that this issue should be looked at, but it is difficult
to look at a statement so general. Can you specifically give us examples ?
This is truely not for the purposes of flaming, so write me privately if
you are concerned.
PLANS had a delighful lunch with the administrator of a public Waldorf
school. We had a wonderful time with a wonderful person. In America, we
have the _right_ to debate an issue without being labeled "Christian Right,
evil, etc. _Both_ sides has a right to debate this issue without
harrassment and personal attacks.
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n394 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n395 --------------
001 - levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk - Re: further good experiences
002 - mckay oro.net - Re: further good experiences
003 - John Suggate (j.suggate c - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n394
004 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - death threats?
005 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis -
006 - levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk - Re: further good experiences
007 - levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk - Re: death threats?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n395.1 ---------------
From: levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk)
Subject: Re: further good experiences
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:19:45 +0100 (BST)
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In-Reply-To: (199705191617.JAA19809 lists1.best.com)
Thankyou
I agree with everything you said. I do wish others would listen to such
balanced words. There are too many downright offensive people on this
list. I do not question their right to anger at Waldorf or anything else.
However, such anger shouldn't translate into offensiveness, and rudeness.
I find this list extremely informative and useful. So let's all be
balanced, on all sides. Some people seem to ENJOY this list for the games
they can play with words, for provoking and for entertaining themselves.
best wishes
Paul
On Mon, 19 May 1997, Deby Snell wrote:
) Paul Levy writes,
)
) [big snip]
)
) But I equally crtitise intolerace,
) )short-sightedness, and dogma in the critics who, all too often, ape the
) )behaviour of those they rightly seek to criticise.
) )
)
)
) Paul, I _do_ feel that this issue should be looked at, but it is difficult
) to look at a statement so general. Can you specifically give us examples ?
) This is truely not for the purposes of flaming, so write me privately if
) you are concerned.
)
) PLANS had a delighful lunch with the administrator of a public Waldorf
) school. We had a wonderful time with a wonderful person. In America, we
) have the _right_ to debate an issue without being labeled "Christian Right,
) evil, etc. _Both_ sides has a right to debate this issue without
) harrassment and personal attacks.
)
) Deby
)
)
) snell oro.net
) http://www.waldorfcritics.org
) People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
)
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n395.2 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: further good experiences
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:44:01 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)On Mon, 19 May 1997, Deby Snell wrote:
)
)) Paul Levy writes,
))
)) [big snip]
))
)) But I equally crtitise intolerace,
)) )short-sightedness, and dogma in the critics who, all too often, ape the
)) )behaviour of those they rightly seek to criticise.
)) )
))
)) Paul, I _do_ feel that this issue should be looked at, but it is difficult
)) to look at a statement so general. Can you specifically give us examples ?
)) This is truely not for the purposes of flaming, so write me privately if
)) you are concerned.
))
)) PLANS had a delighful lunch with the administrator of a public Waldorf
)) school. We had a wonderful time with a wonderful person. In America, we
)) have the _right_ to debate an issue without being labeled "Christian Right,
)) evil, etc. _Both_ sides has a right to debate this issue without
)) harrassment and personal attacks.
))
)) Deby
On 5/20/97, Paul answered:
)Thankyou
)
)I agree with everything you said.
)I do wish others would listen to such balanced words.
I can only speak for my self and that is that I always *try* to be as
accurate and honest as possible, that is not to say that when translating
such things I'm without emotion or feeling, or that I have felt the need
to defend myself.
)There are too many downright offensive people on this list.
And why do you think that is so? One of my very first posts to this list
was a re-telling of my families very presonal experience with WE had been.
It was immediatly & visciously attacked by David S.(aka Lefty) and Mr
Tonkin, it seems that no matter *what* anyone said, if it was viewed as
*negative* by any defenders of Waldorf, it would be attacked aggressively
and offensively, the "mode of operatom" is to *discredit* and *label*. In
a recent post by you, 5/6/97, titled "religion" to which I responded on
5/8/97, you then responded to my post privately, 5/9/97, and when you
didn't respect my request to not post to me privately anymore I posted your
private post of 5/9/97 to the critics list (5/12/97). The reason for
bringing this up is to show you an example of why people can get "downright
offensive" in their responses. All's I was doing was sharing an
experience, I have *never* said I was a scientist nor do I put forth that
everything has to come from scientific testing or methods.
)I do not question their right to anger at Waldorf or anything else.
But Paul, you do and have questioned contributors rights to express anger
at Waldorf, (see above references).
)However, such anger shouldn't translate into offensiveness, and rudeness.
Anger has many forms and by nature it tends to come off offensive or rude.
We all take and see things differently (even when re-reading a post), what
may seem "offensiveness" and "rudeness" to you may not to someone else,
nor was what ever you may have taken offense to nessisarily ment to be
offensive.
)I find this list extremely informative and useful. So let's all be
)balanced, on all sides. Some people seem to ENJOY this list for the games
)they can play with words, for provoking and for entertaining themselves.
Again, I can only speak for myself, I agree that just about everyone at
one time or another, in one *way* or another "play with words". It's *how*
they play with them that can be informative or frustrating. As to
"entertaining", for myself, this is the last place I would look for
entertainment, I contribute out of the need/obligation I feel to show all
sides of WE for what it is, and as you said, I also find this list
extremely informative and useful.
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n395.3 ---------------
From: John Suggate (j.suggate ch.steiner.school.nz)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n394
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:23:23 +1200
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)According to Dutch government statistics, in 1996 there were 1642=20
)male
)students and 2101 female students in Dutch Waldorf high schools =
(basically,
)for the 12-18 years old). In the first grade, the 'gender gap' was=20
)about 20%
)more female than male students. In the final year, this had increased=20
)to 30%.
)
)Comment: Is there a similar 'gender gap' in Waldorf in other countries, =
)or
)is this typically Dutch?
Don't have any overall stats for New Zealand, but for the Christchurch =
Rudolf Steiner School classes 7 to 12 (roughly the 12 to 18 year old =
group) the figures are:
Females: 63 Males: 69.
Final Year
Females: 4 Males: 12
John
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------
John Suggate mailto:j.suggate ch.steiner.school.nz
http://www.ch.steiner.school.nz
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n395.4 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: death threats?
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:45:37 -0700
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I was interviewed by reporter Raymond Shiu of the U.C. Davis campus
newspaper today. He said people at Rudolf Steiner college have received
death threats. Can anyone fill in more information on this? Rigby, you're
close to RSC, what's the story?
I told Shiu that in my opinion, and I believe I speak for all of the PLANS
board, that we do not view Anthroposophy as evil, only misguided. I believe
that everyone in the Waldorf movement is trying to do good as they see it,
and I respect and admire that. If only good intentions were enough!
)From the point of view of some Christian sects Anthroposophy *is* Satanic.
The position of Lucifer in Steiner's hagiography certainly isn't acceptable
to most Christians, nor is his concept of Christ. The framers of the
constitution wisely decided to keep religion *out* of government activities
so we could get on with our common business without fighting over things
like that.
Even Rev. Morton, the Baptist pastor on our board, defines his opposition
to public funding of Waldorf programs strictly on church/state separation
grounds. We all acknowledge the absolute right of Anthroposophists to hold,
practice, and promulgate their beliefs. What we oppose is their deceptive
practices in both private and public settings, their claim that their
belief system is scientific, rather than religious.
Our only weapon in this conflict is exposure. I believe that information
alone will be sufficient to correct the social ills that Anthroposophy is
guilty of. It can't stand the light of day.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n395.5 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject:
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:29:47 +0100
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Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
)Stephen Tonkin wrote:
)
))Given the documented (don't take my word for it, Dr de Tollenaere --
))check it with SAPA-Reuter) stand of South African Waldorf schools
))*against* aspects of apartheid in the 1980s,
)
)Aspects is a key word here. Everyone, including in the National Party of Mr
)Vorster and Botha, was against some aspect or other of apartheid then (so,
)they kept changing aspects of policy). The book by leading South African
)anthroposophist of that time Downer, quoted at the PLANS web site, supported
)apartheid 'n principle'. Of course, he too was *against* some 'aspects'.
)How about opposition 'in principle'?
'"Aspects" simply refers to issues covered by a source (SAPA-Reuter)
which subscribers this list might recognize as impartial.'
Whilst I know that Waldorf Schools stood against the _principle_ of
apartheid, I am not aware of any documented evidence for this -- that
does not mean that it does not exist, merely that I am unaware of it if
it does. My personal knowledge of Waldorf education in South Africa is,
in the context of this list, unsubstantiable hearsay.
However, the fact that the Waldorf Schools in South Africa pressed for
multiracial education might suggest something.
--
Stephen Tonkin
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n395.6 ---------------
From: levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk)
Subject: Re: further good experiences
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:40:22 +0100 (BST)
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In-Reply-To: (199705201941.MAA19232 lists1.best.com)
David McKay said:
))"And why do you think that is so? One of my very first posts to this
))list
))was a re-telling of my families very presonal experience with WE had
))been.
))It was immediatly & visciously attacked by David S.(aka Lefty) and Mr
))Tonkin, it seems that no matter *what* anyone said, if it was viewed as
))*negative* by any defenders of Waldorf, it would be attacked
))aggressively
))and offensively, the "mode of operatom" is to *discredit* and *label*."
I repeat: I think it is a pity and damaging to this list that people on
any side of this argument are rude or offensive. I DO believe people have
a right to br angry and to express that anger and I know the line between
being angry and being insulting isn't clear. I'm not talking hard and fast
rules here - just my own opinion that insults need not be traded by ANYONE
on this list. As regards my post to your personal address, I do apologise
that you were so offended by it. Several other members of this this have
requested that I post replies of a more personal kind to them personally.
If I have broken some kind of e-mail etiquette, I apologise.
I have no ill feeling towards you or anyone else on thsi list who are
attempting to engage in lively debate on Waldorf. And I most certainly do
not doubt your experiences (negative) with Waldorf as you have so rudely
doubted mine.
Paul Levy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n395.7 ---------------
From: levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk)
Subject: Re: death threats?
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:48:45 +0100 (BST)
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In-Reply-To: (199705202246.PAA27491 lists1.best.com)
Dad Dugan says:
"Our only weapon in this conflict is exposure. I believe that information
alone will be sufficient to correct the social ills that Anthroposophy is
guilty of. It can't stand the light of day."
In Europe Anthroposophical medicine distributed by Boots the chemist under
its own label (one of the largest pharamceutical retailers in the UK)
Anthropsophical-inspired agriculture sells products to major supermarkets
all over Europe and farming acreage is growing by the day.
There are over 200 practicing organisation development consultants working
explicitly with anthroposophical ideas in Europe.
Last year over 30 books were published BY MAINSTREAM PUBLISHERS written on
anthroposophy.
Anthroposophy is often discussued positively by such writers as Saul
Bellow, Ben Okri and even Prince Charles.
Waldorf education receives state funding in several European countries
(though I don't agree with this myself!)
Scientific research using anthroposophical ideas is funded in at least
five universities in Europe - explicity recognised
A degree course in Waldorf education is run at a UK university - well
attended and referenced.
It goes on. It proves nothing - but does at least thrown a tiny bit of
doubt that anthropsophy doesn't stand up in the light !
Paul Levy
(about to publish yet another article in a refereed journal -
independently refereed - making use of anthroposophical and other ideas.)
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n395 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n396 --------------
001 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: further good experiences
002 - mckay oro.net - Re: further good experiences
003 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Re: Anthroposophy in Europe
004 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - California Aggie article
005 - levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk - Re: further good experiences
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n396.1 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: further good experiences
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:33:46 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: (199705201941.MAA19232 lists1.best.com)
mckay oro.net wrote:
)One of my very first posts to this list
)was a re-telling of my families very presonal experience with WE had been.
)It was immediatly & visciously attacked by David S.(aka Lefty) and Mr
)Tonkin,
My alleged "attack" on Mr McKay's post about his family's experience was
merely a correction of an error of fact in that post.
Anyone wishing to decide for himself whether this correction constituted
an attack, vicious or otherwise, is invited to search the archives on
the keywords "Spence" and "Emerson".
--
Stephen Tonkin
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n396.2 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: further good experiences
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:51:56 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Levy:
)I have no ill feeling towards you or anyone else on thsi list who are
)attempting to engage in lively debate on Waldorf. And I most certainly do
)not doubt your experiences (negative) with Waldorf as you have so rudely
)doubted mine.
It seems that when ever anyone responds to Mr Levy, no matter what about,
if he doesn't see it as a possitive response then he deems it as "rude",
oh well. He wants everone to be nice and "fair play" (he has his own
definition and rules for this) in a "fair weather" and "don't rock the
boat" kind of way, yet he can make fun of those he likes at the same time,
such as; his post of 5/21/97 where he refers to Dan Dugan as "Dad Dugan",
his post of 5/9/97, his post of 4/11/97 he refers to Daniel as a "junior
priest of the religion known as the "skeptics", and again on 4/14/97 where
he refers to Daniel as a "high priest" of the "cult of emerging
conclusions" and ended with; "However, if you want or need the last word on
this, I am happy to oblige. I have always respected the clergy, whatever
religion they belong to.", his continuous cant that everything anyone says
is "religious/religion" or a "prayer", his post of 4/2/97 where he
*pre-determines* any responses so you're labeled and "set-up" before hand
no matter what you do or say, he said: "Now, I suppose what will happen now
is that this mail message will be pulled apart, rudely and offensively
replied to, half quoted, mis-quoted, slices, mangled, mis-interpreted,
re-interpreted, ignored all in the pursuit of objective criticism. So be
it." In his post of 5/15/97 he again *pre-determines* any response with;
"NOw, let's have some of the usual insults, generalisations and nasy
comments which some of you are so good AT, PARTICULARLY WHEN some
information is presented to you that contradicts your views."
To close, I don't doubt Mr Levy's *positive* experiences, as well as I
don't doubt that he is very capable of all the things he accuses the
*critics* of. Since Mr Levy has said many times that he "is not an
Anthroposophist" and yet he so staunchly defends it, he should come out of
the closet and become what he says he's not, but then *denial* seems to be
one of the main traits of Anthroposophy. I hope Mr Levy can work out his
own confusion about Anthroposophy and stick to his suggested "fair play" in
future posts.
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n396.3 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophy in Europe
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 22:50:53 +0200 (MET DST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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At 09:48 AM 21/5/97 +0100, Paul Levy wrote:
)
)Dan Dugan says:
)
)"Our only weapon in this conflict is exposure.
Exactly!
)I believe that information
)alone will be sufficient to correct the social ills that Anthroposophy is
)guilty of. It can't stand the light of day."
Paul Levy:
)In Europe Anthroposophical medicine distributed by Boots the chemist under
)its own label (one of the largest pharamceutical retailers in the UK)
This proves something about commercial estimates by Boots. It does not
necessarily say anything about medical value; or about Dan Dugan's issue of
complete information.
)Anthroposophy is often discussued positively by such writers as Saul
)Bellow, Ben Okri and even Prince Charles.
Is Prince Charles a great writer?
)Waldorf education receives state funding in several European countries
Including The Netherlands and other countries, where *all* religious schools
get state funding. This does not necessarily say anything about Waldorf
separately. To give an extreme example, even if the Church of Satan in The
Netherlands would start schools, and if enough parents would send kids
there, the government would be obliged under law to give these schools the
same money as public schools.
)Scientific research using anthroposophical ideas is funded in at least
)five universities in Europe - explicity recognised
)
)A degree course in Waldorf education is run at a UK university - well
)attended and referenced.
)
)It goes on. It proves nothing
It does prove something- influence in society. As a social historian, I
disagree with the view that if ideas have influence, this makes them right.
Herman de Tollenaere
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n396.4 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: California Aggie article
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 01:33:11 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
[Downloaded from
http://www.californiaaggie.com/archive/97/05/22/ci.waldorf.html on 5/22/97.
The editor is Margaret J. Berry, mjberry ucdavis.edu -dD-]
Davis primary school answers charges of witchcraft
By Raymond W. Shiu [rwshiu ucdavis.edu]
Aggie News Writer
A growing movement in elementary education rooted in art, sound and
movement -- and what some critics call witchcraft -- has an established
presence in Davis.
Amid the recent controversy surrounding the integration of Waldorf
educational methods at Oak Ridge Elementary School in Sacramento, the
Waldorf School in Davis has been preparing children for secondary education
for the past 11 years.
The kindergarten through eighth grade school currently educates about 100
students.
According to Waldorf School enrollment coordinator Karen Anderson, these
alternative methods foster the full development of the child.
"It is an effort (at this school) to...address the whole child, the whole
human being," Anderson said. "It is a core principle that you need to
engage the children through their feelings, their imagination, even through
their physical senses."
According to Waldorf-Stenier Training College coordinator Arlene Monks, the
teaching methods used are geared toward children's growth.
"(The Waldorf system) is a developmental curriculum," she said. "It's
geared to the developmental stages of the child."
Basing their curriculum on this belief, reading and writing lessons do not
begin until the first grade. When these skills are taught, students learn
to read through their own writing.
In addition, Anderson added that storytelling, art and drama are
incorporated into the academic subjects.
"You can't just teach their head," Anderson said about children's
education. "There is an attempt to teach them to be engaged fully through
all their capacities and not just feed the intellect."
It is not uncommon for the classrooms to have children reciting stories or
poems while dancing to music.
However, critics -- such as People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools --
have said these methods promote the occult. Currently, PLANS's mission is
to prevent Waldorf education in public schools, but it sees problems with
the teaching method overall.
According to Dan Dugan of PLANS, Waldorf teaching methods include
anthroposphy, a "cult- like religious sect."
"What they're trying to do is bring back magical thinking to the world,"
Dugan said. "They believe that there are spirits behind everything. I know
there are people who would call that evil. (They) would consider
anthroposphy a satanic religion."
Dugan added that PLANS is also concerned about the principles that Waldorf
educators believe in.
"They differ strongly pedagogically from current theory and that really
needs to be examined," said Dugan, referring to the delaying of reading and
writing. "Maybe they're right, but if they are, it ought to be researched
and not something that should be sold as a cult."
Anderson refuted PLANS's claims and said that the Waldorf School amply
prepares its students for secondary education or transfer to public
schools.
"The pacing of the curriculum is different...but the kids are on par with
public schools in terms of basic skills," Anderson said.
Anderson pointed to the success that Waldorf methods have had at Oak Ridge
Elementary, which is 85 percent non-native English speaking students. Since
the Waldorf system started this year, test scores have gone up.
"There is a very strong language component (in the Waldorf system)," Monks
said. "It provides a very strong basis for literacy."
In addition, Anderson dismissed PLANS's charges that Waldorf education
includes witchcraft or satanic beliefs.
"You light a candle to tell a story, and that means you're practicing
witchcraft?" she asked.
She added that PLANS's "propaganda feeds fear and anxiety" about the
Waldorf methods, and the hysterical reactions are due to "fear and
ignorance."
According to Anderson, Waldorf teachers at the training college in Fair
Oaks have received death threats because of their methods.
"I don't wish any of these people ill," Dugan said. "They are all trying to
do good. There is no one with evil intentions. But they're misguided into a
questionable form of education."
Anderson said that she believes Waldorf education could work in public
schools. She said that the Waldorf-Steiner Training College's courses for
public school teachers are designed to avoid any references to religion.
"The Waldorf system nurtures and supports the development of the spiritual
human being, which can be done not dogmatically, but through the arts,"
Anderson said.
Monks said that she believes more schools may incorporate Waldorf methods
into their curriculum.
"I think there are a lot of people who would like to put their children in
Waldorf schools, but can't afford to," Monks said, adding that schools that
are "Waldorf-inspired" are chartered to meet this demand.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n396.5 ---------------
From: levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk)
Subject: Re: further good experiences
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:28:30 +0100 (BST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII"
In-Reply-To: (199705211849.LAA14210 lists1.best.com)
David McKay says:
"Since Mr Levy has said many times that he "is not an
Anthroposophist" and yet he so staunchly defends it, he should come out
of
the closet and become what he says he's not, but then *denial* seems to
be
one of the main traits of Anthroposophy. I hope Mr Levy can work out his
own confusion about Anthroposophy and stick to his suggested "fair play"
in
future posts."
Paul Levy replies:
1. Yet more rudeness.
2. Mr McKay has NEVER met me and has NO idea if I am confused about
anthroposophy.
3." Dad Dugan" was a spelling error - did that not even seem a possibility
to you ?
4. I defend the right of people to like and play football yet I am, and
never have been a footballer. Why should I admit to being an
anthroposophist when I choose not to be one ?
5. I do admit to having caught the rudeness bug from this list. Iam going
away for two weeks to try to shake it off. Genuine apologies to anyone I
have been rude to.
6. Just had a council meeting at our school. Got some great feedback from
parents about the school's new home and the open day. Very positive !
Paul
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n396 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n397 --------------
001 - mckay oro.net - Re: further good experiences
002 - {~_~} (allure netcom.com) - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n396
003 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n396
004 - Hope Seidman (hseidman UD - Re: Unsubscirbe
005 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: Unsubscirbe
006 - RigbyL aol.com - Re: Unsubscirbe
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n397.1 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: further good experiences
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:42:25 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)Paul Levy replies:
)
)1. Yet more rudeness.
If calling an Ace an Ace is "rudness", I re-posted many *direct quotes*
of Mr Levy's, and yes, I ended with my own opions about Levy, sorry if
he felt they were rude.
)2. Mr McKay has NEVER met me and has NO idea if I am confused about
)anthroposophy.
I've meet you thru *your* words and responses, the only thing missing is a
face/body.
)3." Dad Dugan" was a spelling error - did that not even seem a possibility
)to you ?
I quess I could give you the benefit of the doubt, but, misspelling a
"first grade" word like "Dan" from a "research fellow at the University of
Brighton in the UK" is a streach for me. Maybe you ment to say it was a
*typing* error, but then "Dad" is done using the left hand, and "Dan"
using the left and right hand. Even if you're a two finger plunker, "Dad"
is all on the far left of the key board. Most key board misspellings are
from keys close to each other.
)4. I defend the right of people to like and play football yet I am, and
)never have been a footballer. Why should I admit to being an
)anthroposophist when I choose not to be one ?
Well are you or aren't you a footballer? Above you say "yet I am," and
then say "and never have been...". As to your question, beats me.
)5. I do admit to having caught the rudeness bug from this list. Iam going
)away for two weeks to try to shake it off. Genuine apologies to anyone I
)have been rude to.
What a cop out, blaming a list for your rudeness!
)6. Just had a council meeting at our school. Got some great feedback from
)parents about the school's new home and the open day. Very positive !
I'm glad the meeting went well for you, we can all use positive feed back
in our lives, some of the most positive things that happen in our lives
are *mistakes* (which to many in this world would be looked on as
*negative*), but I see them as an oppertunity to learn and grow ( it's
also one less mistake I have to make in life!).
Have a nice two weeks,
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n397.2 ---------------
From: {~_~} (allure netcom.com)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n396
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:07:40 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: (199705221500.IAA28538 lists1.best.com)
) From: mckay oro.net
) Subject: Re: further good experiences
) "NOw, let's have some of the usual insults, generalisations and nasy
) comments which some of you are so good AT, PARTICULARLY WHEN some
) information is presented to you that contradicts your views."
Unsubscribe please.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n397.3 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n396
Date: Fri, 23 May 97 00:42:09 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
{~_~} (allure netcom.com) wrote )
) Unsubscribe please.
Goodbye.
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
http://home.earthlink.net/~danielsabsay/ebss
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n397.4 ---------------
From: Hope Seidman (hseidman UDel.Edu)
Subject: Re: Unsubscirbe
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:53:38 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199705222339.QAA01720 lists1.best.com)
UNSUBSCRIBE.
THank you.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n397.5 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Unsubscirbe
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:03:58 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199705222339.QAA01720 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199705231344.GAA21699 lists1.best.com)
)UNSUBSCRIBE.
)
)THank you.
Hope,
Please send this message to the robot in charge.
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n397.6 ---------------
From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: Unsubscirbe
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
(( Hope,
Please send this message to the robot in charge.
Deby ))
Dan Dugan?
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n397 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n398 --------------
001 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - SAVE waldorf-critics subscription information
002 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Admin - see revamped "recommended reading"
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n398.1 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: SAVE waldorf-critics subscription information
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:36:25 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subscription information for waldorf-critics mailing list
version C1 - 4/13/97
replaces all previous versions which should be labeled "superceded" or
destroyed.
New in this version: fair use guidelines
***
INTRODUCTION
Please save this message. You may want to unsubscribe or subscribe again in
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Expect list traffic to be quite variable; sometimes a lot, sometimes nothing.
If you're going away for a while, consider unsubscribing. List messages might
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or _thus_ or -thus-.
The writers of messages bear all responsibility for their content. If
something bothers you, say so publicly or in private mail to the writer.
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Email messages are the property of the writer; the copyright is implicit.
Mailing list postings fall in a gray area; there is no legal precedent. I
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We have agreed with our provider to establish fair use guidelines. Our fair
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Thanks, Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com or plans dandugan.com)
-dD-
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n398.2 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Admin - see revamped "recommended reading"
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 02:30:02 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
David Dugan has done a beautiful redesign of the PLANS "recommended
reading" page. Some books may be ordered right from the page, with PLANS
benefiting. Take a look.
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/Bookstore/Recommended_Reading.html
-Dan Dugan
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n398 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n399 --------------
001 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Appeal-Democrat report on PLANS Yuba County
002 - Steve Premo (premo cruzio - Re: California Aggie article
003 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: California Aggie article
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n399.1 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Appeal-Democrat report on PLANS Yuba County
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:36:30 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
WALDORF TRAINING SCRUTINIZED
Group says teaching methods are religious
Jeff Forward
Appeal-Democrat [Marysville, CA, May 15, 1997]
Certain types of training teachers at T.E. Mathews and Carden Court School
have been receiving were labeled as religious Wednesday night at a board
meeting of the Yuba County Office of Education.
Dan Dugan, secretary of People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools, gave
reasons why Waldorf-type schools are unsuitable for public funding, saying
Waldorf training is religious.
The group alleges that teachers at the two charter schools are receiving
religious training at the Rudolph [sic] Steiner College in Fair Oaks, which
is based on the Waldorf educational approach, invented by Steiner in 1919.
The teaching methods were put into use at T.E. Mathews and Carden Court
after several teachers took a Waldorf staff development course offered by
the Sacramento City Unified School District from December 1993 through May
1994.
T.K. Mathews teacher Kathy Sutphen notified the group of her objections to
the training.
"I'm very clear that I received religious training," Sutphen said.
Sutphen said she first attended training in 1993 and quit a summer of 1995
training seminar after five days because the training violated her
religious beliefs.
"I simply cannot ethically accept this kind of religious agenda in the
public schools," Sutphen said to the board during the public comments time.
"Please give it your full attention."
Dugan's presentation included several definitions of anthroposophy, the
type of religion promoted by Rudolph Steiner, and examples of the material
taught at the college.
"I think it is somewhat of an emergency that this group is moving into
public education," Dugan said.
Shelly Arvizu, an assistant teacher at T.E. Mathews who has attended
Waldorf training, said anthroposophy is not used at the school.
Dugan said his group opposes the public funding Yuba County is using to
send teachers to Waldorf training.
After Dugan's speech, which drew laughs from several teachers in
attendance, Ric Teagarden, county superintendent of schools, denied having
a Waldorf school.
Teagarden emphasized after the meeting that he did not see any aspects of
the group's presentation at T.E. Mathews.
"We don't operate a Waldorf school, we don't claim to be a Waldorf school,"
Teagarden said.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n399.2 ---------------
From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: California Aggie article
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:42:51 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
In-Reply-To: (199705220834.BAA08953 lists1.best.com)
On 22 May 97 at 1:33, Dan Dugan wrote:
) According to Dan Dugan of PLANS, Waldorf teaching methods include
) anthroposphy, a "cult- like religious sect."
)
) "What they're trying to do is bring back magical thinking to the world,"
) Dugan said. "They believe that there are spirits behind everything. I know
) there are people who would call that evil. (They) would consider
) anthroposphy a satanic religion."
Those who would call Anthroposophy a satanic religion (generally
Christian fundamentalists) are every bit as unscientific as
Anthroposophists, wouldn't you agree?
) . . . Anderson dismissed PLANS's charges that Waldorf education
) includes witchcraft or satanic beliefs.
Umm, Dan and Deby, you guys are not claiming that Waldorf education
includes witchcraft or satanism, are you?
If not, Dan, did you call the author of the story to straighten him
or her out?
Steve Premo
Santa Cruz, California
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n399.3 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: California Aggie article
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:34:33 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199705220834.BAA08953 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199705270448.VAA05750 lists1.best.com)
Steve Premo asks,
)Umm, Dan and Deby, you guys are not claiming that Waldorf education
)includes witchcraft or satanism, are you?
The public school teachers and parents from Oak Ridge claim witchcraft
(Wicca). According to the teachers, there _are_ some similarities. What
Wiccans call alters, Anthropops call "nature tables." Set up the same way.
The public school teachers were told to walk the pentagram (as practice for
form drawing. My son's did it in WE too.) Also, when the children walk from
classroom to lunchroom, etc., they must cross their hands over their heart.
The parents and teachers claim this is a Wiccan gesture.
PLANS says that while there may be similarities, and Steiner _was_ an
occultist, Wiccans do not like the Christianity in the curriculum.
Anthropsophy is a sect of its own. Even though there is similarities in
Anthroposophy to _many_ views that Steiner incorporated into Anthroposophy
(such as Theosophy, Zoroastrianism, medieval Europe, Hinduisum), one really
has to be an Anthroposophist because of the mixture.
)If not, Dan, did you call the author of the story to straighten him
)or her out?
)
No, we did not. Many Oak Ridge teachers and parents assert that there is
witchcraft going on. Teacher bought Wiccan books and _showed_ us and the
media many similarities. Anyone who knows PLANS claims, knows that
witchcraft has _not_ been our handle. We certainly can not control what
other people think. Articles/news casts work _for_ and against PLANS. We
did not phone the Sacramento Bee to dispute Sac. City Unified School
Officials statement that PLANS claims is based on rumor either, even though
they certainly would not know _what_ we are basing our concerns on as they
won't let us speak. We're frankly happy to see the issue in the news, and
it has certainly been there lately.
Feel free to explain to these folks just _how_ it's different, but you
better read up. They are pretty convinced.
Deby
Debra Snell, president
People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n399 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n400 --------------
001 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - AWARD-WINNING TEACHER TRANSFERRED TO DESK JOB AFTER OBJECTING
002 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - "Don't care about the law"
003 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Many unsubscribers
004 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: Many unsubscribers
005 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - (from Steve Premo) Re: Many unsubscribers
006 - RigbyL aol.com - Re: Many unsubscribers
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n400.1 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: AWARD-WINNING TEACHER TRANSFERRED TO DESK JOB AFTER OBJECTING TO
CULT PROGRAM AT YUBA COUNTY COURT SCHOOL
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 20:58:11 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE May 27, 1997
PEOPLE FOR LEGAL AND NON-SECTARIAN SCHOOLS (PLANS)
Contact: Debra Snell, President, (916) 273-1005 snell oro.net
Dan Dugan, Secretary, (415) 821-9776 plans dandugan.com
Web site: http://www.waldorfcritics.org
AWARD-WINNING TEACHER TRANSFERRED TO DESK JOB AFTER OBJECTING TO CULT
PROGRAM AT YUBA COUNTY COURT SCHOOL
Members of People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools (PLANS) will
establish an informational picket line and meet the press at 1:00 PM
Thursday, May 29, at Thomas E. Mathews School, 131 F Street, Marysville,
CA. PLANS is protesting the ongoing conversion of Mathews and another court
school, H.P. Carden, to "Waldorf" programs. Dan Dugan, Secretary of PLANS,
told the Yuba County school board on May 14 that "Waldorf education is a
missionary activity of Anthroposophy, a cult-like religious sect. Waldorf
programs are not suitable for public funding."
T.E. Mathews School teacher Kathleen Sutphen has received two international
and five national awards for teaching and curriculum development work. She
specializes in classroom technology. Despite Sutphen's protests, all
student computers were taken out of T.E. Mathews School classrooms just
prior to the current school year, and Sutphen was directed not to let
students work on computers at any time. According to Waldorf principles,
computers and video equipment are harmful to children.
Sutphen refuses to take any more Waldorf training. She told PLANS "The
teaching methods are educationally unsound, and clearly based on the
beliefs of a religious sect. Religious doctrine in the Rudolf Steiner
College courses I have been required to attend violates my personal
religious beliefs." The award-winning teacher is being removed from
classroom teaching and reassigned to a desk job next year. Sutphen
describes ongoing harassment as a result of her protests against the
Waldorf inclusion. A reporter witnessed Yuba County Office of Education
staff members yelling at Sutphen after she had spoken to the school board
on May 14.
Debra Snell, PLANS president, commented "We have observed this kind of
thing at every public school where a Waldorf program has been protested by
teachers. They wouldn't act like this over a new math program. This is
cult-like behavior." Similar incidents have occurred when Waldorf programs
were established in San Diego, Nevada City, and Sacramento, California.
Teachers at T.E. Mathews and H.P. Carden are required to take three hours
of Waldorf training biweekly, a monthly Saturday training, a three week
summer course, and on-site mentoring from Rudolf Steiner College. The
college is a center for Anthroposophy, the cult of Rudolf Steiner
(1861-1925). Class notes and handouts from recent courses include
Anthroposophical religious doctrine such as belief in reincarnation and
"astral" and "etheric bodies." According to Snell, "PLANS is blowing the
whistle on this violation of church-state separation."
Some school boards have turned Waldorf programs down because of their
religious nature. In addition to the church-state question, the value of
the Waldorf teaching methods is unknown. Waldorf methods are abundantly
supported by testimonials, but no research.
A grant application chosen for funding by the Kellogg Foundation describes
a partnership between the Yuba County Office of Education and Rudolf
Steiner College to create a model Waldorf program at T.E. Mathews and H.P.
Carden schools that can be imitated by other schools.
At the May 14 school board meeting, Principal Ruth Mikkelsen and
Superintendent Richard Teagarden denied having a Waldorf program at T.E.
Mathews school.
Mikkelsen, in the Yuba County Office of Education newsletter distributed
less than one week prior to this meeting, stated: "Rudolf Steiner College
will provide staff development classes. The College will also provide
on-site mentoring and participate in curriculum and program design adapting
the Waldorf educational approach to the special needs of court/community
school students. Staff at the two Yuba County schools will meet regularly
with Rudolf Steiner College staff to evaluate progress, curriculum and work
on developing a model program."
-30-
Debra Snell, president
People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n400.2 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: "Don't care about the law"
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:32:17 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Shortly after PLANS set up our informational picket line in front of
Thomas E. Mathews court school today, a newspaper reporter showed up
for an interview. During the interview, the kids came outside for
recess. They were, of course, curious about us and came over to the
gate we were standing by. Dan and Patricia began handing flyers to the
few kids who were asking questions. School board member, Donna
(fontfamily)(param)Helvetica(/param)Landerman
(/fontfamily)walked over to the fence and asked us to stop leafleting
the kids because we were disrupting them. We explained that we had
stopped by the police station to inform them of our activities, and
assured her that we had their permission to be there, and we could, by
law, leaflet the kids. Dan gave her a copy of the law stating our
rights.
Donna replied, "You are disrupting the kids. I want you to stop. I
don't care about the law." I turned to the newpaper reporter and said,
"Write that down." Then I replied, "It is evident to us that you don't
care about the law, but PLANS does care about the law and that is why
we are here."
I hope the reporter caught that.
Deby
Debra Snell, president
People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n400.3 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Many unsubscribers
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:25:28 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dan mentioned yesterday that he had several list members request to be
unsubscribed from this list. Will anyone explain the reason for this?
Deby
Debra Snell, president
People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n400.4 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Many unsubscribers
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 10:20:30 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199705301825.LAA01843 lists1.best.com)
)Dan mentioned yesterday that he had several list members request to be
)unsubscribed from this list. Will anyone explain the reason for this?
)
)Deby
)
)Debra Snell, president
)People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
)http://www.waldorfcritics.org
Deby et al,
FWIW:
1. The list has become a publishing arm of the political action group
opposed to Waldorf in public education in the U.S.
2. Everything critical that needs to be said about
Steiner/Waldorf/Anthroposophy has already been said, and all the flambe
arguments that are possible have been had. There's nothing new under the
sun.
3. The departures are either committed Stein/Dorf/Pops who will never
change their minds about any aspect of their faith, or committed anti-
SDP's who know enough now to make a decision -- and who also know that the
SDP's will never change their minds about anything and so are not worth
arguing with.
I have seen many critics agree that there are some good things in SDP --
usually lamenting that there's so much spiritualistic mumbo-jumbo that they
can't abide it in order to take advantage of the good things.
I have rarely seen an SDP say publicly there are fundamental problems with
Steiner/ Waldorf/Anthroposophy, and that they will work for change within
the movement.
I have seen private communications where SDP's express doubts.
This public/private duality leads to my next possibility:
4. The departures are Stein/Dorf/Pops who recognise there are serious and
fundamental problems with their chosen `philosophy', but who are stuck with
it and realise that they cannot publicly question anything, or they will be
subjected to intense personal and public retribution.
5. They came for a specific purpose, such as university course research,
and have enough answers that they don't feel the need to continue reading
for general interst.
6. They're bored. It's not possible to sustain interest in arguments that
simply are rejected by each side, or where one side talks common sense and
direct approach to mumbo jumbo, and the other side talks only mumbo jumbo
and says, if the critics knew enough, they could enter into a proper
discussion, and then they wouldn't be critics.
7. They're SDP's who don't have any answers to the criticisms and
suggestions of the likes of Dan Saykaly and his list of what people should
be told before joining a Waldorf school community, or answers to any other
criticisms, or any skeptical reasoning ability, and they would rather
snuggle down into the certainty of their received wisdom.
8. They're critics who miss the more rabid Stein/Dorf/Pop defenders of the
faith (who have been quite lately) and who believe this list has become too
tame. polite and boring. Or they're SDP's who have achieved that quietude
as their purpose by demanding politesse and demeaning trenchant critics.
They've gelded the list and they can now go to their just reward.
9. They're people with a serious professional interest in Stein/Dorf/Pop
who never contributed much to the list anyway, just lurked, and don't need
it anymore.
10. Who cares?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n400.5 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: (from Steve Premo) Re: Many unsubscribers
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:47:33 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
[Steve Premo accidentally sent this to the list command address, so I'm
posting it for him. -dD-]
On 30 May 97 , Deby Snell wrote:
) Dan mentioned yesterday that he had several list members request to be
) unsubscribed from this list. Will anyone explain the reason for this?
Well, Deby, since the people who unsubscribed aren't here to explain, and
I can't speak for them, the best I can do is give the reasons I've
considered unsubscribing lately.
The main reason is this attempt to draw parallels between Waldorf and
witchcraft/satanism. There are many ways in which Anthroposophy functions
as a religion, and you folks have done a pretty good job of pointing that
out. But to imply that Anthroposophy is related to "witchcraft and
satanism" because kids walk the outline of a pentagram in Eurythmy is
a blatant appeal to prejudice and superstition.
I know, you did not specifically say that Anthroposophy is related to
Wicca, or that Wicca has anything to do with satanism, but in context, it
appears that you were trying to get support from Christian fundamentalists
by implying that there is a connection there.
Up to that point, I've been pretty sympathetic to your goals of showing
that Waldorf schools should not be publicly funded because of their
religious content.
Then, today you posted an article complaining that a school board
member asked you to stop picketing in front of the school because it is
disruptive:
) We explained that we had
) stopped by the police station to inform them of our activities, and
) assured her that we had their permission to be there, and we could, by
) law, leaflet the kids. Dan gave her a copy of the law stating our rights.
)
) Donna replied, "You are disrupting the kids. I want you to stop. I
) don't care about the law." I turned to the newspaper reporter and said,
) "Write that down." Then I replied, "It is evident to us that you don't
) care about the law, but PLANS does care about the law and that is why we
) are here."
Just as you have a right to picket, if it can be done in a non-disruptive
way, so the school board member has a right to ask you to stop. She can't
make you stop (unless it is, indeed, disruptive), but her right to express
her wish is as constitutionally protected as your own right to picket.
To twist her words ("I don't care about the law, I just want you to stop")
into an expression of hostility toward the law is unwarranted.
To summarize, I'm getting the impression that you do not really care
about educating the public about the issues; you want to win at all costs.
You practically admitted as much with your statement:
) Articles/news casts work _for_ and against PLANS. . . . We're frankly
) happy to see the issue in the news, and it has certainly been there
) lately.
In other words, you are not going to disabuse people of erroneous
notions if those ideas further your political goals. Well, that's the
nature of politics I guess, but I find it distasteful.
In any event, this attitude does not lead to an interesting exchange of
ideas on this list, and it is aggravating.
So that's the reason I am considering unsubscribing. Sorry if it's not
what you wanted to hear, but you asked.
Steve Premo
Santa Cruz, California
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n400.6 ---------------
From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: Many unsubscribers
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:00:36 -0400 (EDT)
(( Dan mentioned yesterday that he had several list members request to be
unsubscribed from this list. Will anyone explain the reason for this?
Deby ))
A new form of Internet virus propagated by People for Illegal and Sectarian
Schools.
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n400 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n401 --------------
001 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: Many unsubscribers
002 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Re: California Aggie article
003 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - For Steve Premo
004 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Re: Many unsubscribers
005 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Letters
006 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Two more letters from The Sacramento Bee
007 - RigbyL aol.com - Re: Letters
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n401.1 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Many unsubscribers
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:44:39 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199705310101.SAA08212 lists1.best.com)
)(( Dan mentioned yesterday that he had several list members request to be
) unsubscribed from this list. Will anyone explain the reason for this?
)
) Deby ))
)
)A new form of Internet virus propagated by People for Illegal and Sectarian
)Schools.
Thanks Rigby. I knew I could count on you for a direct answer.
Deby
Debra Snell, president
People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n401.2 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: California Aggie article
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:21:49 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Steve Premo, you quoted the Davis Aggie, quoting me,
)) According to Dan Dugan of PLANS, Waldorf teaching methods include
)) anthroposphy, a "cult- like religious sect."
))
)) "What they're trying to do is bring back magical thinking to the world,"
)) Dugan said. "They believe that there are spirits behind everything. I know
)) there are people who would call that evil. (They) would consider
)) anthroposphy a satanic religion."
and you commented,
)Those who would call Anthroposophy a satanic religion (generally
)Christian fundamentalists) are every bit as unscientific as
)Anthroposophists, wouldn't you agree?
Yes. Religion vs. religion has nothing to do with science.
)) . . . Anderson dismissed PLANS's charges that Waldorf education
)) includes witchcraft or satanic beliefs.
)
)Umm, Dan and Deby, you guys are not claiming that Waldorf education
)includes witchcraft or satanism, are you?
No, those charges are being made by Francesca Schomberg, a teacher at Oak
Ridge School. When she went on that tack we knew it would be clouding the
issue, and that is what happened.
)If not, Dan, did you call the author of the story to straighten him
)or her out?
No, did you?
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n401.3 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: For Steve Premo
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 11:38:41 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Steve writes,
)
)To twist her words ("I don't care about the law, I just want you to stop")
)into an expression of hostility toward the law is unwarranted.
)
)To summarize, I'm getting the impression that you do not really care
)about educating the public about the issues; you want to win at all costs.
)You practically admitted as much with your statement:
Steve,
An award winning science and technology teacher protested
Anthroposophical)tenets she was taught which included "The blood is a very
special fluid.
For it is the fluid which would whirl away as spirit if we were to remove
it from the human body so that it still remained blood and was not
destroyed by other physical agencies - an impossibility while it is bound to
earthly conditions". Science teachers would likely have a hard time with
tenets such as these.
PLANS has clear evidence that this school is converting to a Waldorf
school. This evidence includes a copy of the budget designating money to
Steiner college, a copy of an _approved_ grant jointly written by RSC and
the school for the purpose of creating a model Waldorf program, and a
district newsletter announcing the grant and promoting their new Waldorf
program. There is other evidence, but you get my point. YET these teachers
concerns (which includes 1/3 of the teacher population in each school) has
not only been disregarded, but totally and completely attacked at _both_
schools.
Notes and handouts from teacher training programs specifically designed for
public teachers [from two different schools] were submitted to PLANS by
teachers who knew nothing about Anthroposophy, but were clear about the
religious elements in the training. These religious elements violated and
contradicted their own personal spiritual beliefs. THIS IS AMERICA!! Peope
have a right to believe any way they want to. No one has a right to force
someone to attend training which includes religious beliefs that
violate)your own. Yet these teachers have been told that they _must_ attend
this
training or leave the school.
Protesting school teachers, from two schools [who are CTA union members]
asked PLANS to give a presentation to their union representatives and legal
council to educate CTA about teacher concerns. (These teachers and parents
want to inform the media about the problem.) When union teachers showed up
for a meeting with _their_ legal council, non-union (Waldorf supportive)
teachers AND Rudolf Steiner College representatives, who were not invited,
far out numbered the teachers who had serious concerns. Some teachers found
this so threatening that they refused to come into their own meeting. A
union member teacher, who came there to speak about her experiences and
provide documentation to her legal council, had her picture taken by her
"head teacher". The teachers were essentially called liars, and witnessed
the Steiner College folks _deny_ that the teacher notes came from them.One
Steiner College employee accused PLANS of "making them up" (referring to
the teacher notes), even though other teachers present said, "I have the
same notes."(Notes which PLANS have _not_ yet reviewed.)
After PLANS presentation to the YCOE school board, I heard a newspaper
reporter say to one of the protesting teachers [after witnessing her being
screamed at and ridiculed], " If this is what is happening to you, I hope
that you have a good attorney".
Where is the Steiner folks integrity? What their behavior does is cast
doubt on PLANS to the media. And _they_ are the ones lying. These teachers
knew nothing about Anthroposophy when they submitted these notes to PLANS.
These teachers did not even know each other, or realize that anyone else
had concerns with Waldorf inclusion. Yet they had essentially the same
notes, and certainly the same hand outs, and definitely the same
experiences. Steiner college personnel and public Waldorf teachers and
administrators (who have taken to following us around to our presentations
where they have been sincerely and warmly welcomed by PLANS) intimidate and
infuriate the public school teachers by _publicly_ denying their own class
content. These teachers are angry and frustrated. The protesting teachers'
credibility and careers are on the line. PLANS credibility is on the line.
And the public school officials listen to the Steiner people. THEY have the
college. THEY have the credentials. THEY are "the experts".
However, the support that we are picking up along the way is impressive in
quality, partially due to the perceived "unprofessional behavior" on the
side of the Anthroposophists. I hear comments such as, "I have _never_
witnessed that kind of behavior by professionals before", and " What is
happening here is completely and totally unbelievable. This issue is big."
)
)) Articles/news casts work _for_ and against PLANS. . . . We're frankly
)) happy to see the issue in the news, and it has certainly been there
)) lately.
Sorry, Steve. Anthroposophists do not play fair. PLANS is telling news
media that we do not claim witchcraft. The media is attracted to the
extreme, Steve. And the teachers and parents claims of witchcraft is a
better story than ours.
)In other words, you are not going to disabuse people of erroneous
)notions if those ideas further your political goals. Well, that's the
)nature of politics I guess, but I find it distasteful.
I guess the human element kicks in here, Steve. I'm certain you would be
amazed at the view from here. Dan and I are like a flea on a big dog's back.
The Steiner college is an institution. They are good at covering
themselves, and they deny their own beliefs and teachings. Forgive the
gloating and cheap shots. The front lines are intense.
Recognize that PLANS is _serious_ about Waldorf not being funded with tax
dollars. We are committed to getting the word out.
)
)In any event, this attitude does not lead to an interesting exchange of
)ideas on this list, and it is aggravating.
)
)So that's the reason I am considering unsubscribing. Sorry if it's not
)what you wanted to hear, but you asked.
I did ask. Thanks for your honest perception. We have been too busy to
document much more than press releases and the small newspaper articles.
Please understand that Rudolf Steiner College makes lots of money on these
public schools. They will fight back.
Deby
Debra Snell, president
People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n401.4 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Many unsubscribers
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:07:54 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
))(( Dan mentioned yesterday that he had several list members request to be
)) unsubscribed from this list. Will anyone explain the reason for this?
Well, I've been seeing a steady growth, but noticed a few unsubs lately, so
I mentioned that casually to Deby.
I just counted. In May we had 6 subscribes and 13 unsubscribes. Some of
them the same people! They often drop in for a a few days, months, or
weeks, just to see what's happening, never say anything, and go away.
Perhaps it's the departures after the flurry of interest generated by
mentions on Lefty's list a while ago.
Current subscribers: 115.
I really don't mind the quiet lately. I'm sure it won't last.
-Dan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n401.5 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Letters
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 15:50:41 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
5/31/97
Sacramento Bee
"Waldorf Education"
Re "School is teaching witchcraft, critics say," May 16; The founder of the
Waldorf school system, Rudolf Steiner (1861 - 1925), also founded the
Anthroposophical Society. Steiner's theology was an electic blend of
occult, parapsychology, spiritulism, Eastern mysticism and reincarnation.
He took all these beliefs, comingled them with Christianity and came up
with a Christian false doctrine.
It was Steiner's desire not to teach children to read and write until their
first teeth came out, claiming that the forces used for reading and writing
have not yet become available to the child. Does this sound crazy to anyone
besides me?
The PLANS group is correct in defining the Waldorf program as part of a cult.
Kevin Henderson
Debra Snell, president
People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n401.6 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Two more letters from The Sacramento Bee
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:58:42 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sacramento Bee. 5/31/97
"Waldorf Education"
As a longtime supporter of the full spectrum of Waldorf educational
opportunities, I would suggest reading David Elkind's book "The Hurried
Child." The benefits to be gained by allowing a child's natural talents to
unfold are immeasurable.
The success of the Waldorf educational methods can be seen and felt if one
opens one's eyes and heart to see the light that shines from the children
themselves and the teachers and parents who choose to educate themselves
about the rich diversity of life on Earth.
Sarah Caldwell
...And the opening paragraph of a long letter by Helen Hansen is too good
to pass up. Looks like we critics have found our own version of Steiner,
according to Helen. The rest of her letter is another testimonial about how
wonder Waldorf education is. We've heard it before.
Deby
"The May 16 article about Oak Ridge School and the pejorative headline gave
undue public credence to a few misinformed critics. These people have been
pursuaded by a disgruntled parent from the Bay Area whose personal vendetta
is the destruction of Waldorf education, especially in public schools. He
sounds believable, but has been discredited through investigation into his
charges."
Helen Hansen
Debra Snell, president
People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n401.7 ---------------
From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: Letters
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 22:30:48 -0400 (EDT)
Deby quoted a letter in the Sacramento Bee from one Kevin Henderson, which
included the following:
(( It was Steiner's desire not to teach children to read and write until
their
first teeth came out, claiming that the forces used for reading and writing
have not yet become available to the child. Does this sound crazy to anyone
besides me? ))
I recently obtained the following reference from a previous participant on
the WC list. My source said that it had been posted before, but I hadn't
seen it so it may be useful to post it again. The following was cited as an
excerpt from "School Readiness" by Frances L. Ilg et. al. of the Gesell
Institute:
"A second set of teeth gives those interested in observing and helping
children a second chance to peer into nature's inner workings. We ourselves
have become rather self-conscious at the mere mention of teeth, because so
many people believe strongly that there is no relationship between structure
and behavior -- between, for instance, a child's behavior in school and his
teething. But our clinical evidence has been piling up over the years to the
point that we are convinced that a definitive study should be made of this
relationship."
According to my source, the authors then go on to present data from a limited
study (80 children), which quite dramatically shows a correlation between
eruption of the second set of teeth and school readiness.
I understand that the Gesell Institute is a well-respected research
organization within the field of education. To satisfy my own curiousity I
am trying to locate the referenced document, which appears to have been
published by Harper & Row in 1964 and again in 1978.
Mr. Henderson's letter, as quoted by Deby, also declared Steiner's theology
to be false Christian doctrine, so he may have information directly from a
Higher Source.
Rigby
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n401 ---------------