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001 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - PLANS expands
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: PLANS expands
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:08:36 -0700
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At Citizens for Twin Ridges School District Accountability meeting tonight,
we voted unanamously to join with PLANS to increase efforts to educate the
public and place public Waldorf schools back in the private sector where
they belong. Moving onto PLANS board [from the committee] will be Dr.James
Morton and "Chip" Gautier. The first tasks will be to form a non-profit
corporation, and begin fund raising efforts.
YES!!!
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools
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-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n379 --------------
001 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - our day at Oak Ridge Elementary School
002 - {~_~} (allure netcom.com) - Converts?
003 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Nhia Kao Xiong's letter
004 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: Converts?
005 - TEAM-PHYZZ mail.utexas.ed - W.I. Thompson excerpts
006 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: our day at Oak Ridge Elementary School
007 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Donation to PLANS
008 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Call from Oak Ridge
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: our day at Oak Ridge Elementary School
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 01:17:36 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Wednesday, April 30
Beginning in March, 1996, PLANS wrote several letters to the Sacramento
(California) School Board warning them about the problems with Waldorf
programs. Americans United for Separation of Church and State submitted a
letter detailing the legal precedents. There was no response, and our
request to make a presentation to them was ignored. In September, 1996, the
existing Oak Ridge Elementary School was reopened as a "Waldorf Method"
magnet school after teachers took a summer workshop at Rudolf Steiner
College. The school population is 85% from non-English-speaking families.
Twelve teachers, about a quarter of the staff, have objected to Waldorf
program and the classes they are required to take at Rudolf Steiner College
and from Waldorf mentors. Their objections include religious content in the
training and lack of confidence in the effectiveness of the Waldorf
pedagogy. Eleven of the twelve have been forced to request transfers to
other schools. To protect their ability to get new jobs, PLANS is advising
these teachers confidentially.
Today PLANS board members Debra Snell and Chip Gauthier from Grass Valley,
and myself, Dan Dugan from San Francisco, met at 11:30 AM at Oak Ridge
School. We had learned that the Superintendent of Schools was holding a
meeting tonight for parents of six schools to give feedback about how the
schools might be improved. We decided to put the Waldorf program on the
agenda. If they wouldn't listen from the top down, we'd try from the bottom
up, talking to the parents. Deby, Chip and I distributed a flyer with the
following text in English, Spanish, and Hmong. We were unable to obtain a
Lao translation in time.
SAVE OAK RIDGE SCHOOL FROM THE STEINER CULT
Attend the community meeting tonight, Wednesday April 30, with Interim
Superintendent of Schools Jim Sweeney, 6:30 PM, at Oak Park Community
Center, 3425 Martin Luther King Jr., Blvd.
Oak Ridge School is being converted to a "Waldorf" school. This violates
the U.S. Constitution's separation of church and state. Waldorf education
is a religious missionary activity of "Anthroposophy," a cult-like
religious sect started by Rudolf Steiner. Waldorf teachers are required to
study Steiner's religious teachings. Teachers who refuse, including some
who have taught at Oak Ridge for as long as 12 years, have been forced to
request a transfer. They are being told that their college degrees, state
credentials, years of experience, and personal commitment to your children
and community are not sufficient to teach your children. These teachers
will be lost if you do not take a stand. Parents need to say "no" to
prayer-like activities and religious ceremonies in the classroom.
Waldorf teaching methods are unproven and questionable. The Waldorf child
development model is based only on Rudolf Steiner's "spiritual science" and
ignores all scientific research. Waldorf methods say reading shouldn't be
taught until third grade, and computers shouldn't be used until high
school. Parents need to speak up if they want their children to engage in
prereading education and reading instruction during their first four years
of public education. Parents must demand that their children have access to
computers, just as children do at other California public schools.
This flyer is from People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools (PLANS).
PLANS helps parents, teachers, administrators, and school boards combat the
Waldorf movement's program to "save" your children by taking over public
schools. Among others, PLANS is recognized by Americans United for
Separation of Church and State (AU), California Teachers Association (CTA),
American Family Foundation (AFF), and Dr. Paul Martin of Wellspring
Retreat, a cult exit program. Contact us for more information and support.
Debra Snell, President, (916) 273-1005 snell oro.net
Dan Dugan, Secretary, (415) 821-9776 plans dandugan.com
PLANS home page: http://www.waldorfcritics.org
In addition, one of the teachers had made up a page of clippings featuring
the California constitution (Sec. 5, Religious Institutions -- Grants
Prohibited), catalog descriptions of Steiner's "four basic books," and two
Steiner quotes, one on karma and reincarnation, and one about Waldorf:
"Waldorf School Education is not a pedagogical system but an Art -- The Art
of awakening what is actually there within the human being. Fundamentally,
the Waldorf school does not want to educate, but to awaken. For a awakening
is needed today. First of all, teachers must be awakened, and then the
teachers must awaken the children and the young people."
[Rudolf Steiner, *The Younger Generation*]
The parents accepted the flyers gratefully. Some staff refused to take
them, but others came out to get more copies. One person told us our
statement about missionary activity was a lie. A teacher named Debbie
warned me that I could not step onto the school grounds. We were relieved
that no one confronted us. Some parents who have been unhappy with the
program were very pleased that we were pressing their cause. We heard from
inside that there was quite a flutter in the faculty room, with the Waldorf
devotees going to the computers to write a rebuttal but being unable to
focus. When school let out we gave flyers to the departing kids, asking
them to take them home, until we ran out. When one child got a set the
others would wait until they all got them, and most thanked us politely.
The meeting with Interim Superintendent of Schools Jim Sweeney was held in
the early evening at a community center a few blocks from the school.
Though it was to cover six schools, about half of the 80 or so parents
attending, many with children in tow, were from Oak Ridge. Our orange and
yellow flyers were visible everywhere. A news camera took a brief shot of
the crowd and left. The announcement had said that school board members
might attend, and we were very pleased to see the board President J. Shenir
(sp?) up front with Mr. Sweeney. Another board member, Karen Young, came in
later. Neither of these people had been on the board when we wrote to them
last year.
The board president presided with Sweeney assisting. First they drummed up
participation in a special election for a bond issue to fund city-wide
school building improvements, then talked about parking problems. It took a
long time because everything had to be translated into Spanish, Lao and
Hmong. At the beginning people were asked to move into language groups, so
the translations could be done simultaneously. Shenir and Sweeney usually
spoke too long before waiting for translation. A parent asked what the
flyers were about. Irma, the principal, was given the floor, and proceeded
to make platitudes at great length, having to be stopped each time much too
late for the translators to possibly handle it. Shenir would not call on us
for a rebuttal, but instead called a special meeting for next week just to
discuss the program at the school.
Nhia Kao Xiong, a parent, was allowed to read a letter expressing concerns
about the Waldorf program and asking for early reading and computers. At
the end of the meeting I tried to huddle with Sweeney and Shenir, but after
they agreed Shenir left me with Sweeney and three Waldorf-supporting
teachers. I explained my history briefly, and started to state our case.
The teachers said that no teachers had been forced to leave. I said the
dissident teachers had told us a different story. After I had said that
there were two issues, separation of church and state and the competence of
the Waldorf program, Sweeney cut me off, saying that this was a matter
between the principal and parents, and walked away. I found Shenir again
and asked him if we could make a presentation at the meeting next week. He
said no, the teachers were quite well informed about Waldorf. I asked him
if he had any idea of the nature of Waldorf teacher training. He didn't. I
suggested that after my presentation he might know more. I asked if we
rented a hall and had our own meeting after their meeting, would he come,
and he said probably not. I reminded him that we were alleging violations
of law, and that he had a legal duty of oversight.
Outside the center a crowd of parents lingered, and the nucleus of a local
committee was formed. They were outraged that we were not allowed to speak.
More news next week.
-Dan Dugan
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From: {~_~} (allure netcom.com)
Subject: Converts?
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:07:38 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: (199705010701.AAA25294 lists1.best.com)
) Moving onto PLANS board [from the committee] will be Dr.James
) Morton and "Chip" Gautier. The first tasks will be to form a non-profit
) corporation, and begin fund raising efforts.
The Christian Fundamentalist joining hands with Atheists.
Now this is a first. I guess in God and Nature all things are possible...
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n379.3 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Nhia Kao Xiong's letter
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:23:07 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
While Nhia was reading this letter, Oak Ridge pricipal Erma Jew,
Superintendent Sweeney and Board President J. Shenir (sp) huddled in front
talking with each other. Since Dan and I were sitting in the front row, I
stated "You need to _listen_ to what this man is saying." Sup. Sweeney
turned to me and replied,"We were given a copy of his letter."
His letter was very moving, and worth reposting, so here it is.
April 30, 1997
Dear Dr. Sweeney:
My name is Nhia Kao Xiong. We the parents of Oakridge Elementary School are
concerned about the introduction of Waldorf Educational philosophy and
methodology into our children's classrooms. We were not given the
opportunity to scrutinize the curriculum nor were we told about the new
program that Oakridge was undergoing until the second year during a parent
meeting in December. We do not know much about what the program is about or
what it's goals and intention are.
We have asked to have a meeting with the principal. Irma Jew, and Katherine
Lehman to discuss and explain what Waldorf education was about. Instead
they have ignored our request. We are very upset and confused as to what is
going on. As parents, we are concerned about the education of our children
and their well-being. By denying us an explaination of the Waldorf
educational philosophy and methodology, we feel that they must be hiding
something.
Many may think that just because we are illiterate in the English language
and can not communicate fluently with the principal and teachers does not
mean that we do not care about the education of our children. We have seen
our children bring home yarns and knitting needles instead of homework and
books. We ask our children what they are doing at school, they say that
they are knitting, drawing, painting, and singing. Those things are very
beneficial to the growth of the child but what about reading, writing, and
math ? We WANT our children to learn English. We want them to learn how to
read and write in English as well as in their own language. Those students
that are now in the sixth grade will be going to seventh next year. Will
there be a Waldorf middle school for them to go to? This is where we see
that our children are not getting the most out of their education. Many
turn to gangs because they cannot succeed in school. This is due to the
fact that they are not academically prepared to go to the next level of
their education.
Furthermore, we are convinced that the "Waldorf" teaching method is not an
effective method for preparing our children for the future and hereby
demand that it is removed from our public schools. We reserve the right to
decide what our children are being taught and we will not, under any
curcumstances, allow this cult-like teaching method to be used for teaching
them. I have enclosed a list of parents who are strongly against the idea
of using "Waldorf" teaching methods at our public schools.
I can be reached at (***) ***-****.
Sincerely,
Nhia Kao Xiong.
(This man had a long line of parents waiting to sign his letter. He, in
fact, ran out of paper. A worker from the Community Center rushed to his
aid.-Deby)
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Converts?
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 09:45:34 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199705010701.AAA25294 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199705011508.IAA11903 lists1.best.com)
)) Moving onto PLANS board [from the committee] will be Dr.James
)) Morton and "Chip" Gautier. The first tasks will be to form a non-profit
)) corporation, and begin fund raising efforts.
)
)The Christian Fundamentalist joining hands with Atheists.
)Now this is a first. I guess in God and Nature all things are possible...
Hardly, El. Please use your search engine to find "The Joint Baptist
Committee" on the www. Reading their information will give you a clue as to
where Dr. Morton is coming from. PLANS is honored to be associated with a
man with such high integrity.
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n379.5 ---------------
From: TEAM-PHYZZ mail.utexas.edu (tom mellett)
Subject: W.I. Thompson excerpts
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:17:02 -0500 (CDT)
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Dan,
I had just returned the book to the library here when your request
came. But here are some excerpts I posted on the Steiner List recently.
Tom
======================================================
)From the book:
_Coming into Being: Artifacts and Texts in the Evolution of
Consciousness_, by William Irwin Thompson, published by St. Martin's Press,
N.Y.,
1996.
The book is a series of 12 essays and essay number 4 is titled
(without benefit of a good editor, I surmise): "Weird Myths about Human
Origins as Expressive of the Evolution of Consciousness from the
Territorial Nation-State to Global Noetic Polities: The Strange Cases of
Zecharia Sitchin and Rudolf Steiner."
I quote from page 79: (My EMPHASES throughout)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Steiner is an amazing visionary, but if one becomes a
fundamentalist follower of his, an Anthroposophist constantly intoning "Der
Doktor hat gesagt," ("The Doctor said"), then one destroys the spirit with
the letter of literalism.
"Literalism is very often the affliction that followers inflict on
their more imaginative leaders. The followers degrade the movement, and
everything the leader has tried to do becomes a rigid and ridiculous
caricature of itself. Steiner fell into the sacrificial role of leader and
played out the tragedy of followership for all of us to see. One
disgruntled follower burned down his Goetheanum, and another PROBABLY
POISONED HIM. A remnant of his followers have EMBALMED his remains in a
HUMORLESS CULT of 19th Century folk romanticism, in terrified FLIGHT from
the demon Ahriman and his servants in the modern electronic world.
"There is a shadow side to all leaders that gets unconsciously
picked up and acted out by their followers. When a great initiate such as
Steiner drops into incarnation in too heavy a fashion, he creates a big
splash, and that cultural splash creates the OPPOSITE reactions of
followership with the Anthroposophists and decayed German Romanticism in
Hitler's fascination with the occult." (Page 79)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In spite of the simplistic and escapist culture of his followers,
Steiner himself was a very complex and multi-dimensional personality. He
hung out in the coffee houses of Vienna, where he would meet and have
intense discussions with the likes of Leo Froebenius and Stefan Zweig; he
went to visit the dying Nietzsche and recognize the Fascist mania of
Nietzsche's sister long before anyone else. He edited the scientific
writings of Goethe, wrote numerous works of philosophy, and pioneered new
and very practical work in agriculture, medicine and the treatment of the
mentally retarded. But such is the anti-spiritual culture of our
universities that a nihilist like Nietzsche is turned into a literary
avatar and Steiner is not even given a passing footnote in the cultural
history of the turn of the centry. He deserves better. he certainly
deserves better than followers, but now in the work of Art Zajonc, he is
beginning to get the understanding he deserves.
"But in some ways, Steiner brought his general cultural rejection
upon himself, for his second wife Marie von Sievers, who belonged to a
well-to-do and upper-middle class family, was determined to make the good
Doctor Steiner throroughly respectable in the terms of German 19th Century
academic culture. She took a bookish rabbinical-like scholar, who didn't
know how to dress or present himself to the world, and constructed the
"German Herr Professor Doktor." Steiner never discusses his marriages and
sexual experiences, and he seems not to have thought very highly of the
temptations of the flesh. Some historians such as Richard Tarnas, feel that
Steiner might not have been so much asexual as a repressed homosexual who
had mothers instead of lovers for wives. Living in a time when
homosexuality would have invalidated his whole religious movement and
mission as nothing but ideological camaflouge for perversion and heresy, he
simply clamped down hard on sexuality. The jealousy and competition for the
ownership of Steiner by the women around him, however, was evidently pretty
intense. Frau Doktor Steiner, Marie von Sievers, was the leader of the
movement's travelling eurythmy dance company, but Frau Steiner did not like
Steiner's collaboration with Ita Wegman, the leader of the anthroposophical
medical movement. All of which is to say that Steiner was human, all too
human, and very much the product of his time."
(pages 80-81)
------------------------------------------------------------------
"Steiner's is an intellectual approach to heal the rift between
elitist scholarly knowledge and folk knowledge. It is an attempt to create
a sensitivity to the astral plane in reaction to the materialism of his
time. Unfortunately, much of anthroposophy has remained stuck in the 'fin
de siecle' 'art nouveau' [movement] of its founding era. If one goes, as I
did in Bern, to a eurythmy performance, one notices that eurythmy is all
astral and psychic. The women move about in pastel nighties with their arms
flailing about in the air--- supposedly to manifest angels in the ether---
while to the side a woman in Birkenstocks, homespun smock, and a Dutch boy
haircut, intones Novalis with a deadly serious expression and takes five
minutes to extend each vowel so that the angels can get out of the vowels
and join in with the movements of the dance. Every gesture of the dancers
reaches up in a gnostic effort to get out of the body and catch the
vibrating vowels the woman in blowing to them like so many soap bubbles.
There are no loins; there are certainly no genitals; and there is no
ground; it is all in the air.
Eurythmy is just about the opposite of flamenco. Flamenco is
rooted, grounded; the dancers strike the earth with strong feet and full
muscular thighs. Recall Carlos Sauras's movie of the flamenco version of
_Carmen_, in which the older teacher tells the younger woman to stick her
tits out like the horns of a bull. This is the mirror-opposite of Steiner
and Marie von Sievers, and of [George] Balanchine, too. Young ballerinas
in New York would, like Amazons, have their breasts cut down because
Balanchine didn't like big breasts sticking out in violation of the purity
of line. Russian mystic that he was, he wanted his dancers to be
androgynous angels. So this 'fin de siecle' spiritual rejection of
sexuality is an expression of the culture of the first half of the 20th
century. You find it in Steiner, in Balanchine, as well as in Sri Auribindo
and his yogic consort, Mira Richard."
(pages 82-83)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: our day at Oak Ridge Elementary School
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 16:56:10 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199705010819.BAA16629 lists1.best.com)
)Wednesday, April 30
)
Dan Dugan reports on Oak Ridge,
[snip]
)Shenir and Sweeney usually spoke too long before waiting for translation.
)A parent )asked what the flyers were about. Irma, the principal, was given
)the floor, and )proceeded to make platitudes at great length, having to be
)stopped each time much too
)late for the translators to possibly handle it. Shenir would not call on us
)for a rebuttal, but instead called a special meeting for next week just to
)discuss the program at the school.
I think Jay Schenirer, Board President, did a good job with the language
issue, pausing rather frequently for translation. The parents seemed
engaged in the meeting while he spoke. Oak Ridge principal, OTOH, seemed to
be talking to the school officials (while looking at the parents). Irma
behavior was interesting to me because if _anyone_ should know the families
needs at the school, it _should_ be her. Yet, she seemed to be unaware that
few people spoke English. She did not pause even _one_ time without Dan,
myself, Sweeney or Schenirer's prompting. At times, the prompting had to
include a hand on her shoulder (by the Board President)!! The interpretors
didn't have a chance to get the message out.
Irma opened her speech with, "First of all, Oak Ridge did not _convert_ to
a public school, we _chose_ it." I couldn't help but wonder how _that_
subtlety was translatable. (The former PTA President mentioned earlier that
when she questioned the "Waldorf" program, Irma told her the parents had
_voted_ 97% to convert to a Waldorf school. The PTA President (at the time)
asked if she could see the ballets, as she did not remember _any_ election
being held. Irma told her that she did not save the ballets.) Many parents
expressed distain for her while we were passing out flyers. It appears that
many people do not trust her.
While Dan was "huddling" with the school officials, I went out to speak
with the families, and to track down a copy of the letter read outloud
during the meeting. The parents gathered around me, expressing their
concern, and thanking me for being there. They _begged_ us to come to the
5/7 meeting on Waldorf to "represent" them. I promised we would come. The
families lingered around the parking lot (..kind of like at the Waldorf
Schools we went to..) talking with each other, within their language
groups. I heard (in English) statements such as, "We're getting this _out_
of our school", "My children are not reading. They don't even work on this
at school. What will we do if our kids don't get a good education?"
"Where are the computers?" "Our favorite teachers are _leaving_, what are
we going to do about this?" (Later, a teacher told me "This meeting was the
first time in over a decade that I have witnesses the parents coming
together like this.")
I wandered back into the room where Dan was speaking with the school
officials in time to hear the President of the Board saying that PLANS will
be unable to speak at the meeting about Waldorf concerns next week.
Immediately, I returned to the parking lot to inform the parents that PLANS
would not be able to speak at the meeting next week. The parents were
visibly outraged. They pleaded with us to come anyway. They promised that
they would stand in the parking lot until we were allowed to speak.
A couple of parents were talking about hiring lawyers when we left, tired
but victorious. It was clear to us that we did not _introduce_ these
concerns about Waldorf, just validated them.
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n379.7 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Donation to PLANS
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:15:58 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
5/1/97
I received a phone call from a couple who attended the meeting at Oak Ridge
School last night. They wanted to thank us for our help by donating
$100.00 toward the work that we are doing. They have requested to remain
annonomous.
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n379.8 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Call from Oak Ridge
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 23:13:12 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I received a telephone call from one of the dissident teachers at Oak
Ridge. Two more teachers turned in their transfer request to move to a new
school, and more are concerned that they have missed the deadline to do so.
(No numbers given of teachers who are considering leaving the school.)
This teacher read a parent memo issued by the school today. I took notes as
she was reading, and will attempt to recap the memo. This teacher said that
Irma was "furious" about our presence. She was furious because we were
"outsiders who knew nothing about the school."
The parent newsletter stated that "people from outside passed out flyers to
the parent body yesterday. Many statements were false. This is an attack on
teachers who are working hard to serve your children."
"Nine out of 30 teachers are choosing to leave. Teachers may choose to
leave a Magnet school."
"Our student are receiving academic instruction by use of the program 'Word
Attack'. There are computers in classrooms. The schools goals are that
_every_ child will read at grade level by third grade." (The teacher added
a commentary at this point, "Sure, the teachers that are using 'Word
Attack' and insisting on computers in the classroom are the very _same_
teachers that are refusing to teach the Waldorf curriculum, and we are all
leaving the school.")
"Oak Ridge School is a public Waldorf Magnet school. We are following
district guidelines, and have been approved by the Federal Department of
Education."
Information followed about the public meeting on Wednesday to discuss
Waldorf concerns.
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n379 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n380 --------------
001 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Oak Ridge
002 - TEAM-PHYZZ mail.utexas.ed - Sensory and Motor Nerves
003 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Re: Oak Ridge
004 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
005 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n380.1 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Oak Ridge
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 23:42:49 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I spoke to a parent from Oak Ridge today. I asked her if Oak Ridge
principal, Irma Jeu, usually carried on [in English] at length before
before allowing translators to translate, or was she simply nervious at
Wednesday evening's meeting. She replied that Irma generally does her own
translating, every couple of sentences. Upon inquirey, I learned that the
school, with 40-42% of the population comprized of Hmong speaking parents,
and 25% Mein, does not use translators for this population at all-school
meetings. Irma Jeu only speaks Spanish, and does not have _anyone_
translate for the largest percentage of the parent population.
This information was supported by a teacher at the school.
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools
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From: TEAM-PHYZZ mail.utexas.edu (tom mellett)
Subject: Sensory and Motor Nerves
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:34:13 -0500 (CDT)
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Dan,
There's been a lot of discussion on the list in the past about the
"heart-as-pump" or not--- and about Goethe's color theory and Newton's, but
I wonder if there has ever been a discussion about Steiner's claim that
physiology makes a completely false distinction between the so-called
"senory nerves" and the "motor nerves."
To Steiner, ALL nerves were sensory nerves and the so-called
"motor" nerves in your arm, for example, were not responsible for making
your arm move, but were there to allow you to SENSE the motion of the arm.
The actual cause of the motion was to be found in the muscles and
metabolism (the will) and was completely independent of the nerve process
(thinking).
Tom.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n380.3 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:43:27 -0700
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Update on details of spelling and contacts:
The principal of Oak Ridge Elementary School is Irma Jue.
The school district is Sacramento City Unified School District.
I don't know the official title of the board, (board of trustees or
education), but their address is:
520 Capitol Mall, Sacramento, CA 95814
phone 916 264 4300, 4310
fax 916 264 4191
The Interim Superintendent is Jim Sweeney.
The board President is:
Jay Schenirer
phone 916 739 8104
-Dan
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 14:08:42 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (199705031734.KAA17995 lists1.best.com)
)Dan,
) There's been a lot of discussion on the list in the past about the
)"heart-as-pump" or not--- and about Goethe's color theory and Newton's, but
)I wonder if there has ever been a discussion about Steiner's claim that
)physiology makes a completely false distinction between the so-called
)"senory nerves" and the "motor nerves."
) To Steiner, ALL nerves were sensory nerves and the so-called
)"motor" nerves in your arm, for example, were not responsible for making
)your arm move, but were there to allow you to SENSE the motion of the arm.
)The actual cause of the motion was to be found in the muscles and
)metabolism (the will) and was completely independent of the nerve process
)(thinking).
)
)Tom.
Tom,
Can you tell us your resource for this information ? Thanks,
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n380.5 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 09:53:44 +1200
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In-Reply-To: (199705031734.KAA17995 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan must be paying the opposition to stir up some trouble, the list
has been so quiet for a while.
For my money, discussion of pseudo-scientific topics like this belongs on
the esoterica lists of the believers (Anthroposophical Science, Steiner,
Waldorf), not on a critics list.
Here it should be dismissed. To discuss it here is to lend to it the
legitimacy its proponents crave: credibility as a real possibility, and
therefore, proof of their guru's spiritual correctness.
Ignoring such discussion here is especially fitting as the faithful lists
do not admit of criticism or argument about the truth or fallacy of
SteinDorfPop ideas (especially by non-believers), only about their
refinement or understanding by the faithful. Why should we do the work they
refuse to do? We have already rejected spiritualism.
The method of thinking by which such ideas are arrived at is opposite to
the standards of rationalism and science adopted by 99.999 percent of the
world's thinkers.
To discuss the scientific validity of such obvious poppycock -- especially
when the proponent of the discussion offers no _evidence_ of any kind as a
basis for the discussion, but only the ravings of an occult -- is to cause
this list to descend to the maunderings of the believers' lists.
This is not to say that I believe in censoring this list; only that we
should not waste our time being drawn into such arguments that will produce
nothing useful for either side, but will bring this list down to the
intellectual level of the other lists, which evidence a false erudition
that, I am sure, impresses the non-critical thinking reader.
I have never heard of one shred of scientific hyppothesis or research that
matches the silly notion of will acting independently of nerves, or that
all nerves are one-way sensory conduits. The ideas smack of the ancient
Greek belief that we see by projecting rays of some sort from our eyes into
our surroundings. Or of the mystical belief that reality exists only in our
minds.
Therefore the subject is not worth discussing on a list devoted to
criticism. Here the only thing to be said is that this rubbish is more
prima facie evidence of the preposterousness of the foundation of the
Steiner cult of education, and one more reason to dismiss it as a valid one
for our children.
Why? Because there is no way to be sure that such anti-science does not
find its way into the minds of our children. Despite the oft-repeated lie
by SteinDorfPop schools that they do not teach Anthroposophy in the
classroom, it is patently obvious that they do so, in disguise. The "heart
is not a pump" rubbish was presented to my children, for instance, as a
valid scientific hypothesis for which there is good _evidence_. This is
nothing but Anthroposophical inculcation by stealth.
)Dan,
) There's been a lot of discussion on the list in the past about the
)"heart-as-pump" or not--- and about Goethe's color theory and Newton's, but
)I wonder if there has ever been a discussion about Steiner's claim that
)physiology makes a completely false distinction between the so-called
)"senory nerves" and the "motor nerves."
) To Steiner, ALL nerves were sensory nerves and the so-called
)"motor" nerves in your arm, for example, were not responsible for making
)your arm move, but were there to allow you to SENSE the motion of the arm.
)The actual cause of the motion was to be found in the muscles and
)metabolism (the will) and was completely independent of the nerve process
)(thinking).
)
)Tom.
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n380 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n381 --------------
001 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and Belgium
002 - RigbyL aol.com - Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
003 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - admin
004 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
005 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Science and Steiner
006 - "Peter Schwab" (pschwab a - Re: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and Belgi
007 - "Peter Schwab" (pschwab a - Re: California Constitution
008 - "Peter Schwab" (pschwab a - Re: admin
009 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - informing parents
010 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - the law about leafleting at schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n381.1 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and Belgium
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 18:20:34 +0200 (MET DST)
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Hello everybody! I am a new contributor to this list.
I mention news items from The Netherlands and Belgium.
On Friday, 9 May 1997, there will be a debate in Leeuwarden, The
Netherlands, on Anthroposophy and its links to medicine and education. It
will be in Theater Romein, Bagijnestraat 59; at 8 p.m. Organizers are the
Frysk Anty Fassisme Komitee, and SIMPOS (Foundation for Information on
Social Problems and Occult Tendencies).
First, the historian Herman de Tollenaere will speak. Then, three others
will join the debate: the doctor Wiebe Venema of the Anti-Quackery League;
and representatives of Waldorf education and Anthroposophical therapy.
The audience will also be able to participate in the discussion.
------------
)From Belgium:
In May 1997, a committee of the Belgian parliament published a 700 page
report on cults (Dutch: 'sekten'). The parliamentary committee was formed
after the mass suicide and murder by the Order of the Solar Temple. One
Solar Temple leader, Jouret, was Belgian. The Solar Temple had links to the
extreme Right in Belgian politics.
The report mentions 189 'cults', including Anthroposophy.
The Vlaams Blok, the party of the extreme Right, reacted to the report,
saying it feared an 'anti-cult witch hunt'. Reactions from Roman Catholic
leaders were divided. Some thought the ultra-conservative Catholic
organization Opus Dei should not have been included in the report.
-----------
Best wishes to everyone.
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From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 12:56:24 -0400 (EDT)
Tom, in a message dated 97-05-03 14:20:57 EDT, you wrote:
(( To Steiner, ALL nerves were sensory nerves and the so-called
"motor" nerves in your arm, for example, were not responsible for making
your arm move, but were there to allow you to SENSE the motion of the arm.
The actual cause of the motion was to be found in the muscles and
metabolism (the will) and was completely independent of the nerve process
(thinking). ))
Interesting. I gather you hang out in one of the world's leading medical
centers. Any word from neurologist friends on this idea?
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: admin
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 12:58:14 -0700
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As of a few days ago, there were 118 subscribers here. A whole lotta
lurkers! Are you all Anthroposophists watching to see what evil the
Ahrimaniacs are up to? Does anybody have questions or anything to discuss?
-Dan Dugan
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 12:58:22 -0700
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Deby Snell asked Tom Mellett for a reference for his statement:
)) To Steiner, ALL nerves were sensory nerves and the so-called
))"motor" nerves in your arm, for example, were not responsible for making
))your arm move, but were there to allow you to SENSE the motion of the arm.
))The actual cause of the motion was to be found in the muscles and
))metabolism (the will) and was completely independent of the nerve process
))(thinking).
Here's one from me:
"While the nervous system is being formed in the body all that belongs to
the pre-natal life is a work there. The pre-natal life of the soul works
into the human body through antipathy, memory and concept, and thereby
creates the nerves. This is the true concept of nerves. All talk of
classifying nerves as sensory and motor is meaningless..."
[Steiner, Rudolf. Study of Man: General Education Course: Fourteen
Lectures given by Rudolf Steiner in Stuttgart 21st August-5th September
1919. (1919) Trans. Daphne Harwood and Helen Fox. London: Rudolf Steiner
Press, 1960, p. 33.]
Note that this book is one that -all- Waldorf teacher trainees surely study.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n381.5 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Science and Steiner
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 12:58:16 -0700
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Paul Levy said 4/15 (Re: Science from Jorgen Wagner), replying to Daniel Sabsay,
)My only offering can be an objective one: that anthroposophy is one of
)several objective paths to truth. I also accept that science (in your
)terms) is also an objective path to truth. However, I must qualify this by
)pointing out that both of these sentences are (by your own definition)
)subjective and therefore religious as will be any reply you send to this
)note.
(snip)
Newcomers here may wonder what arcane discussions of the philosophy of
science can possibly have to do with Waldorf education. The founder of
Waldorf education, Rudolf Steiner, held forth not only as a spiritual
leader but as an authority on anything his gullible followers wanted to
hear about. This included scientific subjects, and you will see Steiner
described as a "scientist" in Anthroposophical literature. His scientific
qualifications were limited to editing Goethe's writings on science, which
have never been considered, then or now, as scientific, and some
high-school level teaching. From the record of his science lectures to his
flock, meticulously taken down in shorthand, he was a very bad science
teacher. He was always apologizing for not having prepared his apparatus,
and in his talks he would often ramble off-topic and never get to his main
points. Nonetheless his unsophisticated listeners were impressed by his
authoritative delivery, and his following continues. There is a similar
phenomenon happening with Deepak Chopra today. We can tune into our public
television station on a pledge night and see Chopra's pseudoscientific
lectures, delivered to a reverent crowd of people who could obviously
afford real education if they knew the difference, presented back-to-back
as a special treat. The guru business will always be profitable.
Steiner wanted to "re-spiritualize" society, and viewed modern science as
an erroneous "materialistic" way of viewing nature. He promoted "Goethean
science," throwing out all previous knowledge and divining the underlying
principles of nature by simple observation. Since in Goethean science
hypotheses are not subjected to critical tests, as they are in real
science, there is no proof to fall back on but the authority of the "seer"
and whether it feels right to you. Since Steiner claimed "exact scientific
observation" of the spiritual world, to question his authority on any
detail is to question his credibility on everything. This leads devotees
into the self-deprecating position of having to say that any preposterous
statement of Steiner's is "difficult," rather than simply wrong.
We are coming to Waldorf, patient readers. Steiner's "spiritual science"
includes doctrines about the nature of the physical world which are in
direct contradiction to scientific knowledge. These include assertions that
Newton was wrong about light and color (white light cannot be divided into
constituent colors), that blood moves itself (the heart is not a pump), and
that there is no such thing as a motor nerve. These doctrines are held by
Steiner devotees to be truths of nature, so it is inevitable that they will
creep into the Waldorf classroom. All Waldorf students repeat Goethe's
lame-brained experiments with a prism, for example. It depends on how
devoted the teacher is to Anthroposophy whether the Anthroposophical
science doctrines will actually be presented as fact, be presented as
"alternatives," or in the case of a teacher who is not sure, or cautious,
not be stated directly but only implied by omission of real scientific
explanations of the phenomena so the children can (purportedly) discover
the principles for themselves.
It was an amazing day when we heard the Yuba River School (publicly funded
charter) teachers assert to their school board that "the heart is not a
pump" and that there was ongoing scientific research that was proving it.
If this is a belief of Anthroposophists, based on revelation to their
founder from supernatural sources, and only Anthroposophists believe it,
then this is a religious doctrine, not science. There is a strong parallel
here to the "creation science" some Christians want to teach in public
schools. Thus we are justified in saying that Anthroposophical doctrine is
taught in the schools, and the teachers, mis-educated as they are, are
honestly believing that they are not teaching Anthroposophy because they
believe it to be simply scientific fact.
Returning to Paul Levy's statement that opened this essay, he shows the
discomfort of trying to accept both sides at once. He is driven into
self-defeating relativism, stating that both science and Anthroposophy are
"objective paths to truth." Since science and Anthroposophy are opposed on
many issues, this leads to "embracing contradiction" as our correspondent
James Souttar has said. Bye-bye logic, hello "you make your own reality."
Science and religion are not equivalent belief systems. Science restricts
itself to testable statements about the physical universe. Mature religions
restrict themselves to untestable concepts (metaphysics) about unseen
worlds and ultimate causes. Anthroposophy is young, a cult in the process
of becoming a religion, and hasn't worked these contradictions out yet.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n381.6 ---------------
From: "Peter Schwab" (pschwab access.ch)
Subject: Re: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and Belgiu
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:59:17 +0100
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On 4 May 97 at 18:20, Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
) Hello everybody! I am a new contributor to this list.
)
) I mention news items from The Netherlands and Belgium.
)
) On Friday, 9 May 1997, there will be a debate in Leeuwarden, The
) Netherlands, on Anthroposophy and its links to medicine and education. It
) will be in Theater Romein, Bagijnestraat 59; at 8 p.m. Organizers are the
) Frysk Anty Fassisme Komitee, and SIMPOS (Foundation for Information on
) Social Problems and Occult Tendencies).
"Anti-Faschists" and "Foundation for Information etc. ..." ... In my
translation this makes a bunch of people who think they know
everything better. Seems to me to be just the same gang of
frustrated ex-ultra-left-wing nobodies who are looking for a new
occupation after the Berlin-Wall came down. Just a the german
Jutta-Dittfurt-gang and the new professional witch-hunters,
the Gandt-brothers.
Just one question: Don't you think the fact that most european right-wing,
neo-faschist skinheads are favouring the Netherlands and Flanders to
install their boot-camps has something to to with alledged sympathies
of the population there?
If you tell, based on some dubious 90-100 years old transcripts from
Rudolf Steiner that all antropospophs are faschists, then I can
rightfully declare, based on the fact of exisiting neo-nazi
boot-camps in The Netherlands and Flanders that most of the
population there are neo-nazis? Or can't I???
)
) First, the historian Herman de Tollenaere will speak. Then, three others
) will join the debate: the doctor Wiebe Venema of the Anti-Quackery League;
) and representatives of Waldorf education and Anthroposophical therapy.
)
It seems to me that the historian in question is you, if so, I would
be glad to get a transcription of your speech, just out of
curiousity. I just *love* reading jokes.
And I really wonder what an historian has to tell about
anthroposophical medicine.
) The audience will also be able to participate in the discussion.
Just a pity I cannot be there, I am sure we would have a lot of fun together...
If you ever come down to Switzerland, drop me an e-mail early enough
so I can shape up for the match!
)
) ------------
) From Belgium:
)
) In May 1997, a committee of the Belgian parliament published a 700 page
) report on cults (Dutch: 'sekten'). The parliamentary committee was formed
) after the mass suicide and murder by the Order of the Solar Temple. One
) Solar Temple leader, Jouret, was Belgian. The Solar Temple had links to the
) extreme Right in Belgian politics.
The Swiss Canton of Genava did the same kind of rearch, anthroposophy
is _not_ quoted in it's report!
)
) The report mentions 189 'cults', including Anthroposophy.
I would like to know in which _context_ anthroposophy was quoted!
Could you provide some details, please.
)
) The Vlaams Blok, the party of the extreme Right, reacted to the report,
) saying it feared an 'anti-cult witch hunt'. Reactions from Roman Catholic
) leaders were divided. Some thought the ultra-conservative Catholic
) organization Opus Dei should not have been included in the report.
)
Certainly the first and last time I agree with those dumbheads of the
Vlaams Blok. (Btw, glad you aknowledge their existence, as for dutch
and flamish affinities to the extreme right!)
The fact that a state-report in dark-black-catholic Belgium did dare
to declare Opus Dei a cult surprises me. Then again I see this as an
indicator that the commission included into their report any
religious of philosophical movement in Belgium exept the mainstream
catholic and protestant churches. No wonder antroposophy can be found
in there among all others.
) -----------
) Best wishes to everyone.
)
Lurking anthroposophs included?
Best wishes to all (really all, well, _some_ exceptions!)
+peter+
---------------------------------------
Peter Schwab
pschwab access.ch
rte du Vanel 33, CH-2206 Les Geneveys-sur-Coffrane, Switzerland
Voice: (++41) 032 / 857.16.72
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n381.7 ---------------
From: "Peter Schwab" (pschwab access.ch)
Subject: Re: California Constitution
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:59:17 +0100
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On 26 Apr 97 at 23:33, Deby Snell wrote:
) The California Constitution is even clearer than the Federal. Waldorf
) certainly would be a great test case for these laws. I'd _love_ to see it.
) Deby
)
) Article 16, Section 5 of the California Constitution states, [etc. etc. ...]
)
) Article 9, Section I of the California Constitution states, [etc. etc. ...]
)
I have always suspected California to be the homeland of paranoia.
Thank you for confirming this!
+peter+
---------------------------------------
Peter Schwab
pschwab access.ch
rte du Vanel 33, CH-2206 Les Geneveys-sur-Coffrane, Switzerland
Voice: (++41) 032 / 857.16.72
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n381.8 ---------------
From: "Peter Schwab" (pschwab access.ch)
Subject: Re: admin
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:11:58 +0100
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On 4 May 97 at 12:58, Dan Dugan wrote:
) As of a few days ago, there were 118 subscribers here. A whole lotta
) lurkers! Are you all Anthroposophists watching to see what evil the
) Ahrimaniacs are up to? Does anybody have questions or anything to discuss?
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
)
Come on Dan, don't say you feel lonly without us!
Btw, _YOU_ being an incarnation of Ahriman? ...ROFL!
+peter+
---------------------------------------
Peter Schwab
pschwab access.ch
rte du Vanel 33, CH-2206 Les Geneveys-sur-Coffrane, Switzerland
Voice: (++41) 032 / 857.16.72
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n381.9 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: informing parents
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:05:16 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In their report, WestEd made the following recommendations to the San Diego
school board (a year and a half too late):
***
Recommendations for Parental Choice
1) The district and the school should jointly undertake a series of parent
and community education and knowledge-building activities to ensure that
parents understand the Tubman program, its distinctions from a regular
school program and their other options. While the school has attempted to
provide some of this information, a more intensive set of activities may be
necessary, such as one-on-one sessions with targeted parents, to ensure
that they have complete information to make genuine choices.
2) The school should especially target such activities to parents who are
relatively unfamiliar with Waldorf-type approaches and who are dissatisfied
with the school. The correlation between knowledge of Waldorf principles
and satisfaction with the school suggests that it is particularly important
to find more effective ways to reach this group of parents.
3) Materials distributed should be translated into languages represented in
the school. A parent conjectured that a major reason many parents thought
they had no option other than Tubman charter school is that they had
trouble understanding the printed notices distributed before the school
opened. This was particularly true of the non-English speakers.
Neighborhood forums and translations would likely remedy some of these
problems.
***
In Sacramento, it appears that none of this was done. The principal and
school board decided to adopt a Waldorf program, and the parents,
especially the non-English speaking, still have little idea what it is
about. Since Waldorf is a controversial program, equal time should be given
to opponents of the program.
["From Paper to Practice" WestEd 12002, (Executive Summary), p. 22]
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n381.10 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: the law about leafleting at schools
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:05:19 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
It just so happens Judy Daar is taking a course on legal issues in schools,
and offers PLANS this citation:
"If adults come to school for the purpose of handing out leaflets or
otherwise engaging students in dialogue concerning political, religious, or
economic matters or other questions of public concern--they are exercising
their right of free speech and may not be (under present law) evicted or
prosecuted as loiterers under the sections described above. They may remain
even after their supply of leaflets is exhausted in order to talk to the
students--even if a large group of students gather, and even if their
presence causes inconvenience, annoyance, or unrest. The exercise of free
speech is not "unlawful purpose." (Mandel v. Municipal Court (1969) 276
Cal. App. 2D 649; People v. Hirst (1973) 31 Cal. App. 3D 75.) The Hirst
court noted that activity otherwise protected by the First Amendment may be
prohibited if it is carried on in such a manner as to disturb peace or good
order of the school session."
[California Department of Justice. Law in the School: A Guide for
California Teachers, Parents and Students. Sacramento, CA, 5th edition
1990, p. 48]
How about that!
-Dan Dugan
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n381 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n382 --------------
001 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Re: Science and Steiner
002 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Jim Caldwell comment on web site
003 - Andrew David Rowe (rowead - Re: Jim Caldwell comment on web site
004 - "Bill Gunn" (billgunn inr - Re: Jim Caldwell comment on web site
005 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: informing parents
006 - Steve Premo (premo cruzio - Re: the law about leafleting at schools
007 - Charlie_Ross Slf.Org - Re: Oak Ridge
008 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Re: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and Belgi
009 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Public Waldorf teacher training
010 - Steve Premo (premo cruzio - Re: Oak Ridge
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n382.1 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Science and Steiner
Date: Mon, 5 May 97 00:32:11 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Hi Dan,
[snip wonderful stuff]
)Science and religion are not equivalent belief systems. Science restricts
)itself to testable statements about the physical universe. Mature religions
)restrict themselves to untestable concepts (metaphysics) about unseen
)worlds and ultimate causes. Anthroposophy is young, a cult in the process
)of becoming a religion, and hasn't worked these contradictions out yet.
Total dynamite.
-- Daniel
Daniel Sabsay home.earthlink.net/~danielsabsay/ebss
Macintosh Consultant Ignorance is the Ultimate Renewable Resource
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n382.2 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Jim Caldwell comment on web site
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 01:47:17 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The following was received from the PLANS web site:
***
-Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 08:11:57 -0700
-From: Jim Caldwell (jcaldwel flash.net)
-To: plans dandugan.com
-Subject: response is difficult
Your attack on Waldorf Education reminds me of those people who in their
zeal to defend the truth consider themselves at liberty to do violence to
the truth. It reminds me of the American field officer during the Vietnam
War who baldly announced that he had to destroy one Vietnamese village in
order to save it. In my life I grew up as a Baptist, but by the end of my
first year in college I was an atheist. My conclusion was that with all
of the suffering and injustice in the world that either God did not exist
or he was a monster, and I preferred to give him the benefit of the
doubt. I earned a B.A. in psychology from the University of Texas in 1970
and was very active in the sds. I was a defendant in a civil lawsuit
filed by the University of Texas against the Austin Rag (an underground
newspaper at UT) that was appealed all the way to the Supreme Court, but
we won on first ammendment grounds. I have a Master's Degree in Social
Work from UT also and am a practicing psychotherapist. I also belong to
mensa. In 1971 I began studying anthroposophy and consider myself an
anthroposopnist, not based on any kind of religious conversion
experience, but because anthroposophy is better at providing an
framework of understanding all that I have experienced in life than
anything else I have come across.
Whatever objections you may have to the content of anthroposophy,
it is simply not intellectually honest to call anthroposophy or Waldorf
Education a cult or cult-like. It may make your objections seem more
urgent, but in doing so you do violence to the very truth you are
supposed to be upholding. If you wish to take anthroposophy to task for
holding views you disagree with or find objectionable then please do so.
But don't stoop to using perjurative words like a grocery store tabaloid
just for their shock appeal. The truth is that neither anthroposophy nor
Waldorf Education are "cult-like" in any accepted use of the term.
According to the American Heritage Dictionary definition of
religion, as "1. The expression of man's beilief in and reverence for a
superhuman power recognized as the creator and governor of the universe"
anthroposophy certainly does qualify. But that definition is so broad
that it is not useful for comparing what is religious to anything other
than what is frankly secular. To tar everyone with the same brush who is
part of a religion is no more fair than attacks made by the far right
against atheists that they are all communists because communism is an
expression of atheism.
So while it is true that anthroposophy does have some things in
common with religion, the differences are really critical. The most
important of these is that anthroposophy does not proselytize. That is
the reason that parents of children in Waldorf Schools are unaware that
anthroposophy stands behind it. We don't seek to convert people. The
reason that the schools exist is because parents like the education that
their children get there. A child may well go through the entire 12 years
of grade school and never hear the word anthroposophy or the name of
Rudolf Steiner. This is not because anthroposophists are trying to be
sneaky, but because we do not believe in proselytizing.
***
Well, Jim, (Forrest Gump) cults is as cults does. (/Forrest Gump)
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n382.3 ---------------
From: Andrew David Rowe (rowead dynamite.com.au)
Subject: Re: Jim Caldwell comment on web site
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 06:05:02 +1000
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In-Reply-To: (199705050849.BAA00273 lists1.best.com)
At 01:47 AM 5/05/97 -0700, you wrote:
)The following was received from the PLANS web site:
)
)***
)-Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 08:11:57 -0700
)-From: Jim Caldwell (jcaldwel flash.net)
)-To: plans dandugan.com
)-Subject: response is difficult
)
)...
) So while it is true that anthroposophy does have some things in
)common with religion, the differences are really critical. The most
)important of these is that anthroposophy does not proselytize. That is
)the reason that parents of children in Waldorf Schools are unaware that
)anthroposophy stands behind it. We don't seek to convert people. The
)reason that the schools exist is because parents like the education that
)their children get there. A child may well go through the entire 12 years
)of grade school and never hear the word anthroposophy or the name of
)Rudolf Steiner. This is not because anthroposophists are trying to be
)sneaky, but because we do not believe in proselytizing.
)***
I thought the reason they do not try to teach anthroposophy is because it
takes years of subtle indoctrination (either WE or some church) before you
can approach Rudolph Stieners Anthroposophical writings without falling
about laughing after a few sentences.
Andrew David Rowe
PO BOX 563
BELCONNEN ACT 2616
AUSTRALIA
+61 2 6252 6393
http:www2.dynamite.com.au/rowead/index.htm
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n382.4 ---------------
From: "Bill Gunn" (billgunn inreach.com)
Subject: Re: Jim Caldwell comment on web site
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 08:01:03 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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) So while it is true that anthroposophy does have some things in
) common with religion, the differences are really critical. The most
) important of these is that anthroposophy does not proselytize. That is
) the reason that parents of children in Waldorf Schools are unaware that
) anthroposophy stands behind it. We don't seek to convert people.
Well, Jim, I've only been reading this list for a couple weeks but I've
read ample examples of proselytizing at Northern California Waldorf schools
as early as 3rd grade. Small children view their teachers with a profound
reverence. The teacher's knowledge is looked upon as the truth. Teaching
creationism to kids in any form (Steiner or whatever) is in my opinion
"converting" in the most objectionable way; i.e. targeting misinformation
at children guised in the aura of fact.
Bill
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n382.5 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: informing parents
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 08:08:31 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (199705050607.XAA29897 lists1.best.com)
["From Paper to Practice" WestEd 12002, (Executive Summary), p. 22]
)3) Materials distributed should be translated into languages represented in
)the school. A parent conjectured that a major reason many parents thought
)they had no option other than Tubman charter school is that they had
)trouble understanding the printed notices distributed before the school
)opened. This was particularly true of the non-English speakers.
)Neighborhood forums and translations would likely remedy some of these
)problems.
)***
Dan Dugan writes,
)In Sacramento, it appears that none of this was done. The principal and
)school board decided to adopt a Waldorf program, and the parents,
)especially the non-English speaking, still have little idea what it is
)about. Since Waldorf is a controversial program, equal time should be given
)to opponents of the program.
Let's write to them and make a request.
Deby
)
)
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools
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From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: the law about leafleting at schools
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:11:36 +0000
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On 4 May 97 , Dan Dugan wrote:
) It just so happens Judy Daar is taking a course on legal issues in schools,
) and offers PLANS this citation:
)
) "If adults come to school for the purpose of handing out leaflets or
) otherwise engaging students in dialogue concerning political, religious, or
) economic matters or other questions of public concern--they are exercising
) their right of free speech and may not be (under present law) evicted or
) prosecuted as loiterers under the sections described above. They may remain
) even after their supply of leaflets is exhausted in order to talk to the
) students--even if a large group of students gather, and even if their
) presence causes inconvenience, annoyance, or unrest. The exercise of free
) speech is not "unlawful purpose." (Mandel v. Municipal Court (1969) 276
) Cal. App. 2D 649; People v. Hirst (1973) 31 Cal. App. 3D 75.) The Hirst
) court noted that activity otherwise protected by the First Amendment may be
) prohibited if it is carried on in such a manner as to disturb peace or good
) order of the school session."
I took a look at the Hirst case, which states that those who are handing
out leaflets on public school grounds cannot be prosecuted under a law
that prohibits "loitering" on school grounds, because that law only
prohibits "loitering" with no lawful purpose. Since handing out leaflets
is not unlawful, it is not "loitering" under the statute.
This does not mean that the school must allow anyone to hand out leaflets
on school grounds. The case goes on to acknowledge the "right of school
authorities to forbid handbilling on school grounds by persons who are not
students, teachers or administrators, or, if it be permitted, to control it
as to time and place, or as to the character of the message, so long as
discrimination does not result from the presentation of only one side of a
possibly controversial subject."
However, the school may not prohibit folks from standing on the sidewalk
and engaging in such activity, as long as they are not disrupting the
operation of the school:
"Without interfering with normal school activities, daytime picketing and
handbilling on public grounds near a school can effectively publicize those
grievances to pedestrians, school visitors, and deliverymen, as well as to
teachers, administrators, and students. Some picketing to that end will be
quiet and peaceful, and will in no way disturb the normal functioning of
the school. For example, it would be highly unusual if the classic
expressive gesture of the solitary picketer disrupts anything related to
the school, at least on a public sidewalk open to pedestrians."
Steve Premo
Santa Cruz, California
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n382.7 ---------------
From: Charlie_Ross Slf.Org
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 15:32:19 -0400
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Dear PLANS folks,
You guys seem to be fanning the flames of hysteria. There is a lot of good
in the Waldorf method as compared to
a typical public school, especially in their delay of teaching reading &
math. They begin by engaging young students in
symbolic learning, without forcing them to sit still and do rote drills. I
think that by 5th or 6th grade, it's pretty well accepted that
a rigidly orthodox Waldorf curriculum poops out.
I signed on to this list in hopes of seeing some criticism of Waldorf
Education as a method, say, as opposed to Montessori and others. Granted,
the Stiener cult is heir to the Madame Blavatsky way. But the Waldorf
schools have done a lot of good. It was only inevitable that in California,
the Waldorf schooling meme would get pulled into the general new-age
kookism that floats around and even hooks state funding there. The teaching
of anthrosophy should not be state funded any more than should parochial
schools, via vouchers. I am not interested in the NIMBY stuff, especially
getting new immigrants riled up about cults and the like. It's reminding me
of the false-memory child-molesting fiasco with those poor day-care
workers. That was in CA too, wasn't it?
But the core matter I'd like to see is what can be salvaged from the
Waldorf method and how can we learn to grow better children. Not SAT-score
generators, but integrated, moral people.
I did appreciate the stuff from Tom Mellett about the W.I. Thompson book.
Thompson's take seems just about right; Steiner was a little weird but he
was also a little right about many things. His FOLLOWERS may be gettin' a
little wacky now, but there are some good ideas in there to be leveraged.
More things on that level are appreciated.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n382.8 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: News items on Anthroposophy from The Netherlands and Belgiu
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 22:09:15 +0200 (MET DST)
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At 10:59 PM 4/5/97 +0100, you wrote:
)On 4 May 97 at 18:20, Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
)
)) Hello everybody! I am a new contributor to this list.
))=20
)) I mention news items from The Netherlands and Belgium.
))=20
)) On Friday, 9 May 1997, there will be a debate in Leeuwarden, The
)) Netherlands, on Anthroposophy and its links to medicine and education. It
)) will be in Theater Romein, Bagijnestraat 59; at 8 p.m. Organizers are the
)) Frysk Anty Fassisme Komitee, and SIMPOS (Foundation for Information on
)) Social Problems and Occult Tendencies).
)
)"Anti-Faschists" and "Foundation for Information etc. ..." ... In my=20
)translation this makes a bunch of people who think they know=20
)everything better.=20
Did you ever talk to any person of these organizations? Why would the Frysk
Anty Fassisme Komitee, and SIMPOS, even bother to have a debate, and invite
the local Waldorf school executive and other Anthroposophists, if they
really thought, as you say, )they know everything better?(
)Just one question: Don't you think the fact that most european right-wing,=
=20
)neo-faschist skinheads are favouring the Netherlands and Flanders to=20
)install their boot-camps has something to to with alledged sympathies=20
)of the population there?
I am not Dutch, so I cannot speak for )the population there(. In general, it
is nonsense to speak of whole 'nations' or 'races' as good guys or as bad
guys. An example is your reaction to Debby Snell's item on the California
constitution, which, according to you, proves that Californians are
collectively nuts. You really should not generalize in this way.
As for your questions on sympathies: at the last elections in The
Netherlands, the extreme right, calling itself Centrum Demokraten, got 2% of
the vote. This is certainly less than the Front National in France, or
National Aktion or similar parties in Switzerland. It is 2% too much,
however. And things can change fast. Hitler in the 1920's had also only 2%
of the vote in Germany.
As for these boot camps: please, send me all information on them which you
have, immediately. Then, I will be able to warn the police about them. The
police only very rarely allow meetings and demonstrations by the Centrum
Demokraten because of anti racist laws.
)If you tell, based on some dubious 90-100 years old transcripts from Rudolf
Steiner
Dubious transcripts? Don't you know that Helene Finckh, Steiner's
stenographer, was an accomplished professional? I refer you to the
Antroposophist Thomas H=F6fer, Der Hammer kreist, in Flensburger Hefte, Heft
41, p. 8ff. Thomas H=F6fer convincingly dismisses the dubious transcriptions
argument.
)that all antropospophs are faschists
I never wrote or said that, of course! So why are you putting up straw men
to knock them down?
)) First, the historian Herman de Tollenaere will speak. Then, three others
)) will join the debate: the doctor Wiebe Venema of the Anti-Quackery=
League;
)) and representatives of Waldorf education and Anthroposophical therapy.
))=20
)
)It seems to me that the historian in question is you, if so, I would=20
)be glad to get a transcription of your speech, just out of=20
)curiousity.
This would be useless; unless you can read Dutch.
)And I really wonder what an historian has to tell about=20
)anthroposophical medicine.
What did Rudolf Steiner have to tell about any medicine? Don't worry, I will
only discuss briefly some historical aspects of ideas, largely of
non-doctors, on medicine. The doctor Wiebe Venema of the Anti-Quackery
League, a participant in the debate, will certainly correct me if I make
medical mistakes.
)) ------------
)) From Belgium:
))=20
)) In May 1997, a committee of the Belgian parliament published a 700 page
)) report on cults (Dutch: 'sekten'). The parliamentary committee was formed
)) after the mass suicide and murder by the Order of the Solar Temple. One
)) Solar Temple leader, Jouret, was Belgian. The Solar Temple had links to=
the
)) extreme Right in Belgian politics.
)) The report mentions 189 'cults', including Anthroposophy.
)
)I would like to know in which _context_ anthroposophy was quoted!=20
)Could you provide some details, please.
I have not read the full report yet. From discussions on Belgian TV, it
appeared that the report listed all organizations about which parliamentary
committtee witnesses (mainly ex-members of the alleged cults) had made
complaints. A committee member for the Flemish Christian Democrats said that
it was a fact finding committee, not out, contrary to some interpretations
by opponents, to punish or to witch hunt anyone.
I have not heard yet about any reaction by Belgian Anthroposophists to the
report. In the TV debate, the Christian Democrat member faced three critics,
none of them Anthroposophists. One was of Opus Dei. He said: 'We are not a
cult and should not have been included'. The second one was a Scientologist.
He said: 'We are not a cult and should not have been included'. The third
one was an 'energy' therapist, accused of using psychiatric patients as
unpaid labour for his luxurious mansion. He said: 'We are not a cult and
should not have been included'.
=20
)) The Vlaams Blok, the party of the extreme Right, reacted to the report,
)) saying it feared an 'anti-cult witch hunt'. Reactions from Roman Catholic
)) leaders were divided. Some thought the ultra-conservative Catholic
)) organization Opus Dei should not have been included in the report.
))=20
)
)Certainly the first and last time I agree with those dumbheads of the=20
)Vlaams Blok.
The Solar Temple had links to the extreme right. This may perhaps explain
the reaction.
)The fact that a state-report in dark-black-catholic Belgium did dare=20
)to declare Opus Dei a cult surprises me. Then again I see this as an=20
)indicator that the commission included into their report any=20
)religious of philosophical movement in Belgium exept the mainstream=20
)catholic and protestant churches. No wonder antroposophy can be found=20
)in there among all others.
(Any movement)? No! Only those about which the committee received=
complaints.
)
)
)) -----------
)) Best wishes to everyone.
))=20
)
)Lurking anthroposophs included?
Why not? As long as they base themselves on research of facts, not on
dubious pseudo-science like the famous Akasha chronicle information on
'Aryans'. The Flensburger Hefte people are Anthroposophists. Yet, they do
not accept this kind of theory. At least one leader of one Dutch
Theosophical organization very recently stopped accepting Madame Blavatsky's
'Root Race' theories (an important influence on Steiner). The Theosophist
concerned wrote that reading publications by non-theosophist critics had
contributed to his change in views. Maybe in the future, others will draw
similar conclusions.
)
)
)Best wishes to all (really all, well, _some_ exceptions!)
)
)+peter+
)
)=20
)---------------------------------------
)Peter Schwab
)pschwab access.ch
)rte du Vanel 33, CH-2206 Les Geneveys-sur-Coffrane, Switzerland
)Voice: (++41) 032 / 857.16.72
)
)
Best wishes again,
Herman de Tollenaere
My new home page on the Internet http://stad.dsl.nl/~hermantl (So far, much
on Theosophy. Steiner mentioned in the context of Theosophical history)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n382.9 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Public Waldorf teacher training
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 19:33:19 -0700
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While Waldorf-inspired promoters claim that public Waldorf schools do not
violate church-state laws, documentation that I am receiving from public
teachers taking teacher training courses _designed_ for public schools
suggests otherwise.
Public school teacher's hand-outs from RS College include Steiner's
'Lecture II" Speech. A few quotes are irresistable:
"In the future all teaching must be founded on a real psychology - a
psychology which has been gained through an [A]nthroposophical knowledge of
the world."
"When we have thus clearly grasped that the activity of mental picturing is
of this image nature, we must next ask: [O]f what is it an image? Naturally
no outer science can tell us this, but only a science founded on
Anthroposophy.Mental picturing is an image of all of the experiences which
we go through before birth, or rather conception. You cannot arrive at a
true understanding of it unless it is clear to you that you have gone
through a life before birth, before conception. And just as ordinary mirror
images arise spatially as mirror images, so your life between death and
re-birth is reflected in your present life and this reflection is mental
picturing."
"Blood is a 'very special fluid.' For it is the fluid which would whirl
away as spirit if we were able to remove it from the human body so that it
still remained blood and was not destroyed by other physical agencies--an
impossibility while it is bound to earthly conditions."
More later, as time allows.
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n382.10 ---------------
From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 21:42:48 +0000
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On 5 May 97 at 15:32, Charlie_Ross Slf.Org wrote:
)There is a lot of good
) in the Waldorf method as compared to
) a typical public school, especially in their delay of teaching reading &
) math. They begin by engaging young students in
) symbolic learning, without forcing them to sit still and do rote drills. I
) think that by 5th or 6th grade, it's pretty well accepted that
) a rigidly orthodox Waldorf curriculum poops out.
Is it? I had not heard that. Well accepted by whom? Can you quote
some sources?
Is there another kind of Waldorf curriculum that is not so rigidly
orthodox? Where are these unorthodox Waldorf schools?
I really am interested in this.
) It was only inevitable that in California,
) the Waldorf schooling meme would get pulled into the general new-age
) kookism that floats around and even hooks state funding there. The teaching
) of anthrosophy should not be state funded any more than should parochial
) schools, via vouchers. I am not interested in the NIMBY stuff, especially
) getting new immigrants riled up about cults and the like. It's reminding me
) of the false-memory child-molesting fiasco with those poor day-care
) workers. That was in CA too, wasn't it?
Lots of things happen in California, Charlie. Many people live here.
Do you have any knowledge of what California is like, other than
a general impression that Californians are kooky?
Steve Premo
Santa Cruz, California
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n382 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n383 --------------
001 - levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk - Re: Science and Steiner
002 - levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk - religion
003 - James Souttar (ancient ur - criticism of Waldorf Education as a method
004 - Steve Premo (premo cruzio - Re: Science and Steiner
005 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
006 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - for immediate release
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n383.1 ---------------
From: levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk)
Subject: Re: Science and Steiner
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 08:30:26 +0100 (BST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII"
In-Reply-To: (199705050734.AAA17666 lists1.best.com)
Total dynamite - but still religious. This is simply applying your own
logic.
On Mon, 5 May 1997, Daniel Sabsay wrote:
) Hi Dan,
)
) [snip wonderful stuff]
)
) )Science and religion are not equivalent belief systems. Science restricts
) )itself to testable statements about the physical universe. Mature religions
) )restrict themselves to untestable concepts (metaphysics) about unseen
) )worlds and ultimate causes. Anthroposophy is young, a cult in the process
) )of becoming a religion, and hasn't worked these contradictions out yet.
)
) Total dynamite.
)
) -- Daniel
)
) Daniel Sabsay home.earthlink.net/~danielsabsay/ebss
) Macintosh Consultant Ignorance is the Ultimate Renewable Resource
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n383.2 ---------------
From: levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk)
Subject: religion
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 08:36:45 +0100 (BST)
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I will make this comment once more:
If you define science as a set of activities based around the testing
(through logical methods and deduction) of repeatable physical phenomena,
and then relegate all other methods, ideas e.t.c. to being "religious",
then, until you can validate the thought process that arrived at that
hypothesis using scientific methods, then you are also making a religious
statement.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n383.3 ---------------
From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: criticism of Waldorf Education as a method
Date: Tue, 6 May 97 16:07:01 +0100
Charlie:
)I signed on to this list in hopes of seeing some criticism of
)Waldorf Education as a method, say, as opposed to Montessori and
)others.
There has been surprisingly little criticism of WE on *educational
grounds* on this list - almost all other grounds, yes. I'd agree that
one of the most compelling attractions of WE is that it just *works*.
And this is against the background of more conventional educational
offerings becoming increasingly dysfunctional.
One of the biggest differences between Waldorf Education and
education based on the Piagetian model is that WE is *actively
mediated*. The teacher is the focus of the learning experience in the
Waldorf classroom - role model, guide, friend. For Piaget, the
teacher was to be merely a facilitator - some kind of experimenter
who could step back at the soonest moment and leave the rats to it.
It's interesting to see what the post-Piagetians have done with this
legacy. For Papert, it appears to be a case taking the guru's methods
to the extreme - the teacher almost disappearing in favour of the
computer as facilitator/rat-maze rolled into one. But for Feurstein -
whose insights, like Steiner's, came through observation of the child
with severe learning difficulties - there seems to be an almost total
rejection of the Piagetian model.
James
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n383.4 ---------------
From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Science and Steiner
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 09:48:52 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199705050734.AAA17666 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199705060731.AAA04945 lists1.best.com)
On 6 May 97 , levy wrote:
) Total dynamite - but still religious. This is simply applying your own
) logic.
)
) Dan Dugan wrote:
) )
) ) )Science and religion are not equivalent belief systems. Science restricts
) ) )itself to testable statements about the physical universe. Mature religions
) ) )restrict themselves to untestable concepts (metaphysics) about unseen
) ) )worlds and ultimate causes. Anthroposophy is young, a cult in the process
) ) )of becoming a religion, and hasn't worked these contradictions out yet.
Well, you can certainly define religion in such a way as to include
science, and can define science in such a way as to include anthroposophy,
but what's the point? It makes more sense to use the terms in the ways
they are generally understood; then we can all talk about the same thing.
Steve Premo
Santa Cruz, California
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n383.5 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Sensory and Motor Nerves
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 20:25:09 -0700
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Here's another quote which couldn't be more explicit (I love it when
Anthroposophists try to explain things away by saying that Steiner is being
metaphorical). This is from a book that all Waldorf teacher trainees must
study.
"Although physiology believes it has discovered a truth when it talks of
sensory and motor nerves, it is nevertheless only playing with words. Motor
nerves are spoken of because of the fact that when certain nerves are
injured, i.e. those which go to the legs, a man cannot walk when he wants
to do so. It is said that he cannot walk because he has injured the nerves
which, as motor nerves, set the leg in motion. In reality the reason why he
cannot walk is that he has no perception of his own legs. This age in which
we live has been obliged to entangle itself in a mass of errors, so that,
through having to disentangle ourselves from them, we may become
independent human beings."
[Steiner, Rudolf. Study of Man: General Education Course: Fourteen Lectures
given by Rudolf Steiner in Stuttgart 21st August-5th September 1919.
(1919) Trans. Daphne Harwood and Helen Fox. London: Rudolf Steiner Press,
1960, p. 35.]
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n383.6 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: for immediate release
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 20:25:02 -0700
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PEOPLE FOR LEGAL AND NON-SECTARIAN SCHOOLS
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - MAY 6, 1997
Contact:
Debra Snell, President, (916) 273-1005 snell oro.net
Dan Dugan, Secretary, (415) 821-9776 plans dandugan.com
Web site: http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools (PLANS) will present a
multi-lingual version of their lecture "Why Waldorf Programs are Unsuitable
for Public Funding" for parents of Oak Ridge Elementary School on
Wednesday, May 7, at about 5:45 PM at the St. Paul Missionary Baptist
Church, 3996 14th Ave., Sacramento. The meeting will start when parents
arrive after a 4:30-5:30 meeting with Interim Superintendent Sweeney at the
school. The talk by Dan Dugan, formerly a parent at the San Francisco
Waldorf School, is based on slides of selections from Waldorf movement
publications.
The meeting was called after teachers at the school contacted PLANS. The
Oak Ridge Elementary School converted to a "Waldorf Method" program in
September of 1996. A third of the teachers at the school are transferring
because they do not support the Waldorf curriculum, and they are offended
by the religious content of the Waldorf training that they have been
required to take.
PLANS president Debra Snell asserts that "Waldorf education is a missionary
activity of Anthroposophy, a cult-like religious sect. We have
documentation to support this allegation."
PLANS board member Dr. James Morton Jr. said "The entire concept of Waldorf
education is based on the metaphysical/religious beliefs and teachings of
Rudolf Steiner. These metaphysical/religious beliefs and teachings cannot
be separated from the nature, essence and methodology of Waldorf
education." [1]
Other school districts have avoided entanglement with Waldorf. St. Cloud,
Minnesota rejected a proposal because "The spiritual philosophy behind
Waldorf schools could not be separated from its educational components."[2]
When the Anchorage, Alaska, school board rejected a Waldorf program, the
superintendent said "district staff have been informed that anthroposophy
is a fundamental part of the teacher training program which develops the
instructors for the program."[3]
In his lecture, Dan Dugan will point out the overwhelmingly religious
content of the teacher training program at Rudolf Steiner College. The
Sacramento school district is using a $100,000 Federal grant to pay for
this training.
Notes:
[1] Opening remarks, Town Hall Meeting radio broadcast, Nevada City CA,
4/17/97. Dr. Morton is Pastor of First Baptist Church, Grass Valley, CA.
[2] Tonsall, Sonseeahray. "Waldorf program rejected by board." St. Cloud
Times, Nov. 11, 1994.
[3] Shinohara, Rosemary. "Arts School debate takes religious turn."
Anchorage Daily News, January 13, 1994, p. B-1.
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n383 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n384 --------------
001 - James Souttar (ancient ur - Re: Science and Steiner
002 - Charlie_Ross Slf.Org - Re: kookism
003 - James Souttar (ancient ur - Re: for immediate release
004 - Steve Premo (premo cruzio - Re: kookism
005 - JoAnn Schwartz (jms mich. - Re: kookism
006 - mckay oro.net - Re: criticism of Waldorf Education as a method
007 - mckay oro.net - Re: Oak Ridge
008 - mckay oro.net - Re: religion
009 - mckay oro.net - Re: kookism
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n384.1 ---------------
From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Science and Steiner
Date: Wed, 7 May 97 13:31:09 +0100
Dan:
)The founder of Waldorf education, Rudolf Steiner, held forth not
)only as a spiritual leader but as an authority on anything his
)gullible followers wanted to hear about. This included scientific
)subjects, and you will see Steiner described as a "scientist" in
)Anthroposophical literature. His scientific qualifications were
)limited to editing Goethe's writings on science, which have never
)been considered, then or now, as scientific, and some high-school
)level teaching.
According to Arthur Zajonc - who *is* a *real* scientist (Professor
of Physics at Amherst College) - Steiner studied mathematics, physics
and chemistry at the Vienna Technical University (then the MIT of
Central Europe). As a postgraduate, he went on to earn a Ph.D in
Philosophy. And far from his 'scientific qualifications' being
*limited* to 'editing Goethe's writings on science' it was *because*
he had proved to be such an exemplary student - with a grasp of both
Natural Science and Philosophy - that he was chosen to participate in
the prestigious national edition of Goethe's work. To get a sense of
what this meant in the German speaking world, consider an unknown
twentysomething grad student being preferred - above all the eminent
professors of literature - to edit Shakespeare.
Before we can have a serious critical debate, let's get the facts
straight!
James
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n384.2 ---------------
From: Charlie_Ross Slf.Org
Subject: Re: kookism
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 10:49:49 -0400
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((( Snip from Steve Premo's response to my response)))
)) I think that by 5th or 6th grade, it's pretty well accepted that
)) a rigidly orthodox Waldorf curriculum poops out.
)Is it? I had not heard that. Well accepted by whom? Can you quote
)some sources?
)Is there another kind of Waldorf curriculum that is not so rigidly
orthodox? Where are these unorthodox Waldorf schools?
)I really am interested in this.
Sorry, I was meaning "accepted" in a statistical, not "papers by experts"
way. As a parent unscientifically
looking for a Waldorf school for my preschooler in Northern NJ and then in
Cincinnati OH, I found the
enrollment of students in these schools to taper off as grade levels go up.
This would indicate to me that parents
like the nurturing and bi-ligual environment of a Waldorf elementary school
but once basic skills are instilled, the
bad science and odd gnosticism being taught starts to stand out in relief.
Please name more than 10 Waldorf high schools
as a counterexample to this. I actually only heard of one possible
secondary Waldorf school in the US when I was looking.
I did not mean to diss California. I just meant that if you want to see
some extreme aspect of any
belief system or idea played out in living color, California is the place
ya oughta be.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n384.3 ---------------
From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: for immediate release
Date: Wed, 7 May 97 16:13:49 +0100
)PLANS board member Dr. James Morton Jr. said "The entire concept of
)Waldorf education is based on the metaphysical/religious beliefs and
)teachings of Rudolf Steiner. These metaphysical/religious beliefs
)and teachings cannot be separated from the nature, essence and
)methodology of Waldorf education."
Who says they cannot be separated? Has anyone actually tried?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n384.4 ---------------
From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: kookism
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 13:25:06 +0000
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On 7 May 97 , Charlie_Ross Slf.Org wrote:
) )) I think that by 5th or 6th grade, it's pretty well accepted that
) )) a rigidly orthodox Waldorf curriculum poops out.
)
) )Is it? I had not heard that. Well accepted by whom? Can you quote
) )some sources?
)
) Sorry, I was meaning "accepted" in a statistical, not "papers by experts"
) way. As a parent unscientifically looking for a Waldorf school for my
) preschooler in Northern NJ and then in Cincinnati OH, I found the enrollment
) of students in these schools to taper off as grade levels go up. This would
) indicate to me that parents like the nurturing and bi-ligual environment of
) a Waldorf elementary school but once basic skills are instilled, the bad
) science and odd gnosticism being taught starts to stand out in relief.
Possibly. There are other possibilities as well. First, it may be that
as the schools mature, they become more popular, attracting successively
larger beginning classes.
Second, because of the way the schools operate, and particularly because
they keep the same teacher with the same class from year to year, it may
be that people are more likely to choose Waldorf for a child beginning
school than for an older child, who would be coming into an established
class as a stranger. Also, parents of older kids might feel that changing
to a Waldorf school would require more of an adjustment than changing to a
more mainstream school. Thus, as people move to new cities and so on,
more people will be taking their kids out of Waldorf than will be putting
older kids into Waldorf.
Third, it may be true of private schools in general that the higher grades
are usually smaller, because after paying $5,000 a year per child for
private school for a few years, public schools start to look more
attractive after all.
Or, as you say, it may be that parents become disenchanted with the
schools as their kids get into higher grades.
Of course, the "bad science and odd gnosticism" is not supposed to be
taught at all, but sometimes it is. I don't know how widespread this
problem is. There are some on this list who would say it is rampant;
others would say it is rare.
Steve Premo
Santa Cruz, California
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n384.5 ---------------
From: JoAnn Schwartz (jms mich.com)
Subject: Re: kookism
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 17:29:24 -0400 (EDT)
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In-Reply-To: (199705071451.HAA26719 lists1.best.com)
On Wed, 7 May 1997 Charlie_Ross Slf.Org wrote:
[snip]
) As a parent unscientifically
) looking for a Waldorf school for my preschooler in Northern NJ and then in
) Cincinnati OH, I found the
) enrollment of students in these schools to taper off as grade levels go up.
) This would indicate to me that parents
) like the nurturing and bi-ligual environment of a Waldorf elementary school
) but once basic skills are instilled, the
) bad science and odd gnosticism being taught starts to stand out in relief.
I can think of lots of other reasons why enrollment in the upper grades
goes down. Thinking of families I know who have left the school:
One family moved to Cleveland, another to Chicago
The oldest child in the family goes on to a private high school that
also includes the lower grades, so younger child is transferred to cut
down on family commuting time (many of our families travel 45 minutes or
more one way to get to the school, and when the older child's school is 45
minutes the other way...)
Family circumstances changed and the tuition at a private, independent
school became too much of a burden (they moved to the suburbs to get
decent public ed. or decided on a church school)
What seemed possible for one or two children became less possible with
(perhaps unexpected) additional children
Family decided to enroll in a Waldorf-inspired charter school (five
children in my daughter's class left for this reason, by January, all but
one child was back at Detroit WS (the private WS))
Children are less likely to join a class in the upper grades, and
faculty are more reluctant to add students in 7th and 8th grades
I'm sure there are lots more reasons. I have not personally met anyone who
left the school because they were unsatisfied with the academics. (I
concede that there may be some out there.) And yes, I am frequently in
contact with the parents of children who leave because my daughter will
not give up seeing friends just because they go to a new school!
Warmly,
JoAnn Schwartz, Detroit Waldorf School parent
(jms mich.com) Detroit MI USA
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n384.6 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: criticism of Waldorf Education as a method
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 21:04:19 +0100
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)Charlie:
)
))I signed on to this list in hopes of seeing some criticism of
))Waldorf Education as a method, say, as opposed to Montessori and
))others.
)James:
)There has been surprisingly little criticism of WE on *educational
)grounds* on this list
Well, either we've been reading two different WC Lists, or James hasn't
been reading this list for very long. A good portion of past posts (check
the archives) have been "criticism of WE on *educational grounds*", THAT
is exactly what started this list and what most of the critics have posted
about.
James:
) - almost all other grounds, yes. I'd agree that
)one of the most compelling attractions of WE is that it just *works*.
It just *doesn't work* would be more accurate. The WE teaching
methodology and presentation by barely qualified people whom tout
themselves as the best, highly trained teachers is pure deception and
wrong. Many *documented* inadequicies have been posted on this list,
again check the archives.
James:
)And this is against the background of more conventional educational
)offerings becoming increasingly dysfunctional.
Please show us some proof that "more conventional ed. .... dysfunctional".
The level of attention being given and implemented to have an improved
educational system nation wide for the last ten years is working. With
the very loud cry from parents in past years for a *voucher" system and the
introduction of Charter Laws in at least 15 states now, the level of
competition for better Public Education is *waking up* main stream Ed
Systems. All the things that WE braggs about being (and isn't) are being
done in lots of Public schools now.
)James:
)One of the biggest differences between Waldorf Education and
)education based on the Piagetian model is that WE is *actively
)mediated*. The teacher is the focus of the learning experience in the
)Waldorf classroom - role model, guide, friend. For Piaget, the
)teacher was to be merely a facilitator - some kind of experimenter
)who could step back at the soonest moment and leave the rats to it.
Hog wash! Of course, what would you expect from someone who refers to
children as "rats"?!
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n384.7 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:07:02 +0100
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On Monday, 5/5/97, Charlie Ross wrote;
)Dear PLANS folks,
)
)You guys seem to be fanning the flames of hysteria. There is a lot of good
)in the Waldorf method as compared to
)a typical public school, especially in their delay of teaching reading &
)math.
All current studies of brain development in the young child from birth to
age ten show just the opposite of your statement above. The newest
discoveries in neuroscience is the finding that the electrical activity of
brain cells changes the physical structure of the brain. The rhythmic
firing of neurons is no longer assumed to be a by-product of building the
brain, but essential to the process. This process also drives the
explotion of learning that occurs immediately after birth, and continues to
produce trillions of connections between neurons than the brain can
possibly use. Through a process that resembles Darwinian competition, the
brain eliminates connections that are seldom or never used. Deprived of a
stimulating environment, a childs brain suffers. These new insights have
begun to varify the need for early education and what and how preschool
programs are designed. Many child-development experts recommend the need
to design preschool programs to boost the brain power of youngsters born
into impoverished rural and inner-city households. They warn that without
such programs, the current drive to curtail welfare costs by pushing
mothers with infants and toddlers into the work force may well backfire.
Frank Newman, president of the Education Commision of the States said,
"there is a time scale to brain development, and the most important year is
the first". By the age of three, a child who is neglected or abused bears
marks that, if not indelible, are exceedingly difficult to erase. The
window of opportunity in brain development for developing language and
acquiring syntax may close as early as five or six years old, yet the
window for learning new words may never close. The ability to learn a
second language is highest between birth and the age of six.
Neuroscientists have now confirmed that the brain's greatest growth spurt
draws to a close around the age of 10, when the balance between synapse
creation and atrophy abruptly shifts. Over the next several years the
brain will destroy the weak, less or unused connections, and preserve only
the ones that have been transformed by experience. Psychiatrists and
educators have always recognized the value of early experience, but their
observations have until now been largely ancedotal. Modern neuroscience is
providing the hard, quantifiable evidence that was missing before, through
the results under a microsope or in a PET scan. These new discoveries
clearly show that foreign languages should be taught in elementary school,
if not before, and that remedial education may be more effective at the age
of 3 or 4 than at 9 or 10.
Charlie:
)They begin by engaging young students in
)symbolic learning, without forcing them to sit still and do rote drills. I
I've seen plenty of WE teachers forcing their students to sit still and do
*rote copying* of information off the black board in those oh so bragged
about main lesson books the children supposedly create on there own.
)I signed on to this list in hopes of seeing some criticism of Waldorf
)Education as a method, say, as opposed to Montessori and others. Granted,
)the Stiener cult is heir to the Madame Blavatsky way.
Well maybe you should referance the archives and you will see there has
been plenty of what you are looking for there.
Charlie:
)But the Waldorf
)schools have done a lot of good. It was only inevitable that in California,
)the Waldorf schooling meme would get pulled into the general new-age
)kookism that floats around and even hooks state funding there.
You are mistaken that only in California the Waldorf schooling would get
pulled into the gen. new-age kookism. WE owned that shingle long before it
ever arrived here in this state.
Charlie:
)The teaching
)of anthrosophy should not be state funded any more than should parochial
)schools, via vouchers. I am not interested in the NIMBY stuff, especially
)getting new immigrants riled up about cults and the like. It's reminding me
)of the false-memory child-molesting fiasco with those poor day-care
)workers. That was in CA too, wasn't it?
You are right in the fact that Anthroposophy shouldn't be state funded, but
I'm confused by your contridicting observation and then opinion about the
NIMBY stuff, and the false-memory stuff. Keeping your head in the sand is
your right, but then why show concern?
)Charlie:
)But the core matter I'd like to see is what can be salvaged from the
)Waldorf method and how can we learn to grow better children. Not SAT-score
)generators, but integrated, moral people.
This is a good question and one that WE supporters would say is futile, as
only *pure* WE can do the children any good. I don't believe that for a
split second. Yes, there are some aspects of WE that have merit, but most
have to do with things like kindness, and I see plenty of that in
mainstream schools, or... I really can't think of anything that WE has
a corner on over other educational systems other than deception and denial.
)Charle:
)I did appreciate the stuff from Tom Mellett about the W.I. Thompson book.
)Thompson's take seems just about right; Steiner was a little weird but he
)was also a little right about many things. His FOLLOWERS may be gettin' a
)little wacky now, but there are some good ideas in there to be leveraged.
Go back into the archives and see if there are some posts by Dr Mollet,
they are very insightfull about the dogma within the governing bodies for
"official" Waldorf Education. You don't need WE to be creative, look at
what's needed to make something better or to offer different educational
ideas to our children. In fact the further one stays from the Waldorf
World, the greater piece of mind one will have.
)Charlie:
)More things on that level are appreciated.
Hope this was that level you were looking for,
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n384.8 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: religion
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:07:00 +0100
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levy:
)I will make this comment once more:
Is this a promise?
)levy:
)If you define science as a set of activities based around the testing
)(through logical methods and deduction) of repeatable physical phenomena,
)and then relegate all other methods, ideas e.t.c. to being "religious",
)then, until you can validate the thought process that arrived at that
)hypothesis using scientific methods, then you are also making a religious
)statement.
I worked as a volunteer at the HEALING ARTS convention in Scottsdale, Az.
for several years. It was put on by the Edgar Caycey Foundation for the
purpose of furthering both scientific and non-scientific research. So the
conference had everything from the newest medical practises and research,
to the most *out there* new-age practices. Quite interesting to say the
least! My job was to do mono recordings of the lectures/seminars and then
make hi-speed duplicates to have for sell as the attendees came out of the
presentation. What this is leading to is an answer to the above statement
about "validate the thought process...". The level of repeatable research
on the thought process and the brain is very well known. I watched at the
time (ten years ago), medical equipment made to exercise brains that were
damaged either at birth or in some kind of accident. The process used a
video screen and the patient was hooked up to this and some kind of
computer with wires coming from various parts of the head/skull. the
patient would then *think* about making a bar graph move up the video
screen. With continued practise, the patient could get the bar to go to
the top, all with thoughts. What this was doing was *exercising* parts of
the brain that had atrophied from non use or been damaged in some way. So
the thought process can be validated in this and I'm sure many other
scientific ways, none of witch are anywhere close to being "religious
statement[s]".
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n384.9 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: kookism
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 00:06:57 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
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)((( Snip from Steve Premo's response to my response)))
)
))) I think that by 5th or 6th grade, it's pretty well accepted that
))) a rigidly orthodox Waldorf curriculum poops out.
)
))Is it? I had not heard that. Well accepted by whom? Can you quote
))some sources?
)
))Is there another kind of Waldorf curriculum that is not so rigidly
)orthodox? Where are these unorthodox Waldorf schools?
)
))I really am interested in this.
)
)Sorry, I was meaning "accepted" in a statistical, not "papers by experts"
)way. As a parent unscientifically
)looking for a Waldorf school for my preschooler in Northern NJ and then in
)Cincinnati OH, I found the
)enrollment of students in these schools to taper off as grade levels go up.
) This would indicate to me that parents
)like the nurturing and bi-ligual environment of a Waldorf elementary school
What do you mean by "bi-ligual environment"?
) but once basic skills are instilled, the
)bad science and odd gnosticism being taught starts to stand out in relief.
Both JoAnn and Steve P. put forth very common reasons for the upper grades
decline in WE.
One other one not brought up is *teacher burn-out*. I have met *very* few
WE teachers who can carry a class from 1st to 8th grade, most seem to get
in over their heads from not having specific experience with all the
different age related needs of the students as well as not having the
educational training for ALL those grades. An analogy could be the
difference between a motorcycle made for road riding and one made for off
road riding, both being very specific for their respective usage, then
there are the "combination" road/dirt bikes that are OK on and off the
road, but really not very good at either. So what I see over and over
again is WE teachers that have that very limited and specialized WE teacher
training that is a TWO YEAR training in the life and times of Rudolf
Steiner and Anthroposophy with some made up ways to judge, classify and
teach our children, very inadequate training, let alone enough to be able
to carry a class thru all eight grades. I also feel that all the warm,
soft and fairy stuff is great for the lower grades (especially girls), but
doesn't speak to the older kids (especially boys).
David McKay
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n384 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n385 --------------
001 - James Souttar (ancient ur - Re: kookism
002 - Charlie_Ross Slf.Org - Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay, early learning
003 - James Souttar (ancient ur - Re: criticism of Waldorf Education as a method
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n385.1 ---------------
From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: kookism
Date: Thu, 8 May 97 13:34:35 +0100
Charlie:
)Sorry, I was meaning "accepted" in a statistical, not "papers by
)experts" way. As a parent unscientifically looking for a Waldorf
)school for my preschooler in Northern NJ and then in Cincinnati OH,
)I found the enrollment of students in these schools to taper off as
)grade levels go up.
Something that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that the 'class
teacher' years go from 6 to 14. When Steiner was asked to set up the
school at the Waldorf Astoria cigarette factory, the general school
leaving age would have been 14. Since then, leaving ages have crept
up (in the UK it went up to 15 after 1945 - and then more recently
increased to 16). Presumably the situation is much the same
Stateside.
This means that the key 'block' of WE doesn't dovetail neatly into
conventional educational transitions (here age 11 to public secondary
school or age 13 to private secondary school). It also means that
Waldorf isn't particularly strong with post-14s - exacerbated by the
fact that by this age adolescents need to be following an 'approved'
curriculum if they are to compete in national examinations.
)This would indicate to me that parents like the nurturing and
)bi-ligual environment of a Waldorf elementary school but once basic
)skills are instilled, the bad science and odd gnosticism being
)taught starts to stand out in relief.
As Steve says, the 'odd gnosticism' isn't supposed to be taught. As
for 'bad science', it all depends on what you mean by 'bad'. At that
point (circa 14 years) in conventional education, the increased level
of mathematization in science subjects results in fewer and fewer
students taking it to advanced level - a situation that has reached
crisis point here in the UK (it also seems to contribute to science
options becoming a big turn-off for girls, too). The Waldorf approach
to science (and indeed mathematics) does seem to prevent this early
bifurcation into (what C P Snow famously defined as) the 'two
cultures'.
James
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n385.2 ---------------
From: Charlie_Ross Slf.Org
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay, early learning
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:58:41 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Snippet - My words:
)) There is a lot of good
))in the Waldorf method as compared to
))a typical public school, especially in their delay of teaching reading &
))math.
((David's response
All current studies of brain development in the young child from birth to
age ten show just the opposite of your statement above. The newest
discoveries in neuroscience is the finding that... ...(on to Darwinian
neurosynaptical myelinization pontifications)... ))
Umm...
No, I did NOT say it's good to stifle early language (elsewhere I
misspelled "bi-lingual" by the way)
and other symbolic teaching. WE _delays_ reading and arithmetic pedagogy
specifically and there
have been findings among "current" researchers that this is a good thing,
children are just not ready to sit still
and focus their eyes on a text-heavy book until maybe age 8 or 9. The other
very good things WE does
are teaching a second language and lots of music work. These have BOTH been
found to be extremely
beneficial to young students.
As examples of what we should _not_ want our students to end up like as a
result of excessive
early reading and math training, I give you William Sidis and Mr. Ted
Unabomber. On the other hand, I
agree with Robert Coles that children must be read TO and must be
encouraged to look at and page through
picture books as early as possible. They must learn that their parents love
to read and that reading is kewl.
So how do we separate the good stuff from the cultism that the PLANS people
fixate on? That's what I want to know.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n385.3 ---------------
From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: criticism of Waldorf Education as a method
Date: Thu, 8 May 97 17:08:02 +0100
David:
)A good portion of past posts (check the archives) have been
)"criticism of WE on *educational grounds*", THAT is exactly what
)started this list and what most of the critics have posted about.
I've not seen anyone among the critics make a *substantive criticism*
of WE on educational grounds either in a recent post or in the
archive. But, in case I've missed it, perhaps you'd be good enough to
set out the objections to Waldorf on pedagogical grounds?
James
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n385 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n386 --------------
001 - mckay oro.net - Re: criticism of Waldorf Education as a method
002 - mckay oro.net - Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay, early learning
003 - Deby Snell (snell oro.net - Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay, early learning
004 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay, early learning
005 - wrensong monitor.net - Child psychology/spiritual training in WE
006 - wrensong monitor.net - Child psychology/spiritual training in WE
007 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - (from Caldwell) Re: Jim Caldwell comment on web site
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n386.1 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: criticism of Waldorf Education as a method
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:59:18 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)David:
)
))A good portion of past posts (check the archives) have been
))"criticism of WE on *educational grounds*", THAT is exactly what
))started this list and what most of the critics have posted about.
)James:
)I've not seen anyone among the critics make a *substantive criticism*
)of WE on educational grounds either in a recent post or in the
)archive.
More Waldorf baiting. James, I don't care to waste my time or yours, when
it is obvious that no matter what *substantive criticism* that's put forth
on this list goes in one ear and out the other (or is that one eye and out
the other?).
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n386.2 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay, early learning
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:59:14 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Charlie, it's McKay, not mackay, thankyou for future proper spelling.
On 5/9/97, Charlie responded:
)Snippet - My words:
))) There is a lot of good
)))in the Waldorf method as compared to
)))a typical public school, especially in their delay of teaching reading &
)))math.
)
)((David's response
)
)All current studies of brain development in the young child from birth to
)age ten show just the opposite of your statement above. The newest
)discoveries in neuroscience is the finding that... ...(on to Darwinian
)neurosynaptical myelinization pontifications)... ))
)
)Umm...
)
)No, I did NOT say it's good to stifle early language (elsewhere I
)misspelled "bi-lingual" by the way)
)and other symbolic teaching. WE _delays_ reading and arithmetic pedagogy
)specifically and there
)have been findings among "current" researchers that this is a good thing,
)children are just not ready to sit still
)and focus their eyes on a text-heavy book until maybe age 8 or 9. The other
Learning to read does not require "text-heavy" books.
Charlie:
)very good things WE does
)are teaching a second language and lots of music work. These have BOTH been
)found to be extremely
)beneficial to young students.
The methods for teaching a second language by WE teachers that I have seen
over the last nine years leaves a lot to be desired. The children are not
taught *what* they are saying, but only memorizing foreign words. When I
have asked my children and others how they like the Spanish or German they
are learning they have always said it is there least favorite subject
because they don't understand what they are doing or saying. The method is
so superficial as to be a waste of time.
)Charlie:
)As examples of what we should _not_ want our students to end up like as a
)result of excessive
)early reading and math training, I give you William Sidis and Mr. Ted
)Unabomber.
This is a very POOR example that has NOTHING to do with either early
reading or math training. These sick people you mention have mental
illnesses that are separate from their IQ's. You conveniently didn't list
the thousands and thousands of great and everyday people whom have had the
same early training and have contributed very positive ideas and deeds to
human kind.
Charlie:
)On the other hand, I
)agree with Robert Coles that children must be read TO and must be
)encouraged to look at and page through
)picture books as early as possible. They must learn that their parents love
)to read and that reading is kewl.
Any aware and involved parent would know this. You don't need WE to do
this. What is "kewl"?
)Charlie:
)So how do we separate the good stuff from the cultism that the PLANS people
)fixate on? That's what I want to know.
As I said in the post that you have just responded to, "You don't need WE
to be creative, [or] look at what's needed to make something better or to
offer different educational ideas to our children." As to "separating"
the good stuff from the bad, I don't think it's worth the effort. It
would be like starting with an old beat up car and trying to make it new,
might as well start from scratch with fresh materials and really make
something nice. You are naive to think you can work with
WE/Anthroposophists and remove the religious/cult/fake science/dogma. So
to work with what's left doesn't require even considering WE, as I have
stated above.
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n386.3 ---------------
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay, early learning
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 13:45:32 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199705091400.HAA19906 lists1.best.com)
Someone wrote,
)So how do we separate the good stuff from the cultism that the PLANS people
)fixate on? That's what I want to know.
Throw out the word Waldorf and design a new curriculum. Waldorf does not
hold the patent on integrated education. Music and art infusion, creation
of _original_ (verses copied, like Waldorf) text books, teaching in blocks
and other positive aspects of WE _do_ happen in some public schools.
Take these aspects that _are_ attractive and write a curriculum. Void the
Anthroposophical "world-view"/religion that affects _every_ lesson taught
in WE, teach _real_ science, _real_ child development models (not based on
religious beliefs like reincarnation), teach a full spectrum of history
(not based on a theosophical world view) complete with commerce, and I'd be
interested. The "W" word in any form equates to pseudo education, IMNSHO,
naturally.
Additionally, promoting Waldorf schools' as "Non-Sectarian" is a fraudulent
statement that I believe the Steiner College should be held fully
accountable for, especially when it comes to their programs designed for
public school teachers. As a taxpayer, I want my money back!!
Deby
snell oro.net
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
People For Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n386.4 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Oak Ridge: kookism: dmackay, early learning
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:07:42 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199705091400.HAA19906 lists1.best.com)
Charlie_Ross Slf.Org says:
)Snippet - My words:
))) There is a lot of good
)))in the Waldorf method as compared to
)))a typical public school, especially in their delay of teaching reading &
)))math.
)
)((David's [McKay] response
)
)All current studies of brain development in the young child from birth to
)age ten show just the opposite of your statement above. The newest
)discoveries in neuroscience is the finding that... ...(on to Darwinian
)neurosynaptical myelinization pontifications)... ))
ROSS replies to McKay:
)Umm...
)
)No, I did NOT say it's good to stifle early language (elsewhere I
)misspelled "bi-lingual" by the way)
)and other symbolic teaching. WE _delays_ reading and arithmetic pedagogy
)specifically and there
)have been findings among "current" researchers that this is a good thing,
^^^^^^^^
KOPP says:
Please cite these research "findings". I'm unaware of any such. Except
perhaps anecdotal "evidence" from the Steiner/Waldorf/Anthroposophical
crowd itself, which is non-scientific and nothing but self-validating
wish-fulfilment.
(The only "research" I've seen here from the Stein/Dorf/Pop defenders was
some loose, personal data from Stephen Tonkin about success rates in
further schooling for Steiner/Dorf-educated kids. Nothing about the
pedagogy itself.)
ROSS continues:
)children are just not ready to sit still
)and focus their eyes on a text-heavy book until maybe age 8 or 9.
KOPP says:
Rubbish. Tell that to the kids who pore over books and beg their parents to
teach them how to read the words at younger than age five, sometimes down
to age three or less, or who simply teach themselves how to read. Granted,
many of these kids are brighter than most, but that's not to say that only
exceptional children want to or can learn to read at a young age.
There is no scientific evidence for the Steiner/Waldorf/Anthroposophical
view that children are not cognitively or physically capable of reading or
learning before certain ages. (Not able to focus their eyes, indeed!)
The Stein/Dorf/Pop practices are based on the mystical spiritualism of
their founder, whose "received wisdom" is perpetuated through the slavish
cultism of the movement.
The worst affront to reason of the Stein/Dorf/Pop cult is that it believes
that early intellectual development can somehow damage children spiritually
and even physically later in life. THIS occultism is the reason
Stein/Dorf/Pop shackles children to self-denial of their innate tendencies
to learn early and rapidly.
ROSS continues:
)The other
)very good things WE does
)are teaching a second language and lots of music work. These have BOTH been
)found to be extremely
)beneficial to young students.
KOPP says:
Okay, so there's a few things about the method which are beneficial.
Neither of these validate the entirety of the Stein/Dorf/Pop weirdness that
is perpetrated on unsuspecting parents and helpless children. Both of these
activities have long been recognised by orthodox