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-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1313 --------------
001 - "ksutphen" (ksutphen jps. - Re: RSC Public School Teachers Training
002 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
003 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Open Letter to Dan
004 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Open Letter to Dan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1313.1 ---------------
From: "ksutphen" (ksutphen jps.net)
Subject: Re: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 20:38:36 -0700
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Bob Williams posted:
)Kathy, I don't have an argument with your experience of your training, but
)lest some others who are not familiar with RSC Public School Waldorf
)Teachers Training get a skewed impression, I'd like to offer some possible
)clarification based on my two weeks in 1997. I may be off base here in
)suggesting that my experience has any relevance to 1995, so let me know.
I also don't know is there is any relevance between your experience in '97
and what was happening in '95. During the school year '95/'96 there was a
great deal of turmoil at the Sacramento public Waldorf campus (Oak Ridge)
and my campus in Marysville. This resulted in a many meetings, heated
discussions, newspaper articles, etc., etc. Common sense tells me that RSC
knew they had to change the content of the training or risk losing all
funding.
)During *my* two
)weeks at the Public School Training (1997), there were several programs
)going on simultaneously, and I think one of those programs was with your
)old school. All groups met in the early morning for choir and a lecture.
)Then the groups went their separate ways for the day's classes. The group
)that I assume was from your old school seemed to have a whole different
)program that included much more of the Anthroposophical underpinnings.
Why am I not surprised? Interesting that this continued 2 years after the
ruckus in '95.
)I was in yet another group made up of public school teachers, charter
school
)teachers, and parents. I don't remember any carbonic acid kind of talk in
)my training. I do remember being impressed by my group leader's dedication,
)flexibility, and knowledge. I felt that I was in the presence of someone
)who truly looked at children first and who had thought deeply about
)education.
It sounds as if the experience was a very positive one for you.
I also found the topics and strategies dovetailed nicely with
)many different educational ideas from Lindamood-Bell Visualizing and
)Verbalizing concepts to learning styles.
Who made the comparison between the Waldorf pedagogy and Lindamood-Bell
techniques? Was it from your experience or did the instructor make the link?
I ask this because I found that my instructors made a point of telling us
that Waldorf dovetailed with Piaget, Gesell, current brain research, current
research on oral language, etc., etc. When I conducted my own research on
these alleged linkages, I found that
only a slight comparison could be made and that there were areas that were
vastly different from the Waldorf pedagogy as compared to the school of
thought to which the comparison was made. I felt as if these comparisons
were made in order to give Waldorf more credence.
Finally, I never felt judged or
)shunned because of my lack of knowledge of or interest in Anthroposophy.
I wouldn't think there would be a judgement. The judgement/shunning begins
when you question a concept or ask for further information re: the
anthroposophical underpinnings of particular exercises. In fact, I suspect
that very little or no mention was made of Anthroposophy during your
training. Were you at least informed of its influence?
)Might your experience in the RSC Public School Waldorf Teachers Training
)have been different than the majority of public school teachers who go
)through the training without being a part of a special "Waldorf project?"
I don't know. I suspect that the approach has changed somewhat since the
public school training came under the spotlight. I also suspect that the
majority of the public school teachers that attended, at least during the
time I was there, simply listen, take it in, and use it or don't. In other
words, I don't think that most participants question what is being taught to
them, either in the sense of a "doubting Thomas" or simply for a deeper
explanation. I operated in this mode for several years. It was only when RSC
began to *take over* our school and the trainings became mandatory and more
intense that I began to question the training that I was being forced to
endure. I had never been very interested in the training, but when it became
apparent that it was going to be our sole pedagogical focus I sat up and
began to seriously take notice.
)Finally, I would love to know more about why you characterize the whole
)approach as "downright unsound in terms of academic value." That seems a
)bit overstated. Is there nothing of value in the approach?
Perhaps it is a bit overstated. I type fast and don't have much time to
devote to my responses. (Iam also in that situation at present as the family
is calling me rather insistently to dinner.)I will say that they lacked
sound academic content from the very beginning and I initially found them
boring for that reason. Sure I liked the singing and I enjoyed playing the
recorder since I had learned this at CSUS and had been playing with my
students prior to Waldorf, but there wasn't much there other than the same
painting techniques, the singing, the story telling, the stepping in rhythm,
over and over and over again. It was repetitious and dull. In the beginning
I thought we would be given something of substance eventually, but it never
happened. I like to sing in rounds as much as the next person and to water
color and handwork is my means of artistic expression, but I couldn't see
the value in traveling hundreds of miles over the course of each school year
to participate in the same activities ad infinitum. They were simply not
giving me any information regarding the delivery of an arts-based education
that I didn't already have or already do . . . sans Anthroposophy. When I
was finally given some substance it was Anthroposophical nonsense. (I would
like to qualify that last statement . . . I don't truly think that most
religious beliefs are nonsense, Anthroposophy included, but it is nonsense
to teach them to public school teachers with the desire to have them embued
in public school curriculum.)
Sorry this is rushed. I hope I answered your question.
Kathy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1313.2 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 11:53:34 -0400
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)
) Bob Williams posted:
)
) )Might your experience in the RSC Public School Waldorf
) Teachers Training
) )have been different than the majority of public school
) teachers who go
) )through the training without being a part of a special
) "Waldorf project?"
)
) I don't know. I suspect that the approach has changed
) somewhat since the
) public school training came under the spotlight.
Kathy,
Do you think any changes that might have occurred in the approach
since you were there should have any bearing on the PLANS lawsuit?
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1313.3 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Open Letter to Dan
Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 18:00:27 -0700
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References: (199905110923.CAA05680 lists1.best.com)
(199905101943.MAA22418 lists1.best.com)
(199905101633.JAA22786 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199905151250.FAA15235 lists1.best.com)
)With some regret, I withdraw my earlier invitation regarding your visit to
)my parent meeting this fall. The Lower School faculty does not support
)this proposition, and has communicated their decision to me after some
)weeks of ongoing deliberation. The decision was not clear-cut, but no
)consensus could be reached on the propriety of giving you a forum.
Thought you had "freedom," did you, Robert?
)We are all looking forward to your talks and workshops scheduled for
)November, which will occur on our campus. It is my hope that you will make
)contact with other members of our faculty at that time, and such networking
)will allow mutually beneficial relations in the future.
See you then.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1313.4 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Open Letter to Dan
Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 14:26:33 -0400
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References: (199905151250.FAA15235 lists1.best.com)
(199905110923.CAA05680 lists1.best.com)
(199905101943.MAA22418 lists1.best.com)
(199905101633.JAA22786 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199905161718.KAA06640 lists1.best.com)
))With some regret, I withdraw my earlier invitation regarding your visit to
))my parent meeting this fall. The Lower School faculty does not support
))this proposition, and has communicated their decision to me after some
))weeks of ongoing deliberation. The decision was not clear-cut, but no
))consensus could be reached on the propriety of giving you a forum.
)
)Thought you had "freedom," did you, Robert?
In any truly cooperative venture, freedom often involves a sacrifice of
personal considerations. We try to work as a community.
If I had the entire scenario to play over again, I would've run the idea of
inviting you by my colleagues before I asked you. Since the idea occurred
to me while we were out on summer vacation, I compounded the problem by
acting unilaterally. I apologize for any inconvenience it may have caused
you.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1313 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1314 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Open Letter to Dan
002 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Open Letter to Dan
003 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Open Letter to Dan
004 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Open Letter to Dan
005 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Admin: web counter 25,721
006 - "Duane Koons" (dkoons gun - Re: moral values
007 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Open letter to Dan
008 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - Anthroposophical Medicine
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1314.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Open Letter to Dan
Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 19:00:56 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199905161718.KAA06640 lists1.best.com)
(199905151250.FAA15235 lists1.best.com)
(199905110923.CAA05680 lists1.best.com)
(199905101943.MAA22418 lists1.best.com)
(199905101633.JAA22786 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199905161818.LAA01272 lists1.best.com)
Robert, you wrote,
)If I had the entire scenario to play over again, I would've run the idea of
)inviting you by my colleagues before I asked you. Since the idea occurred
)to me while we were out on summer vacation, I compounded the problem by
)acting unilaterally. I apologize for any inconvenience it may have caused
)you.
No inconvenience here. I'm afraid you, however, will now be under suspicion
of being a troublemaker with your College of Teachers.
Can you imagine another kind of school where a teacher wouldn't be allowed
to bring a guest speaker to a class parents meeting?
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1314.2 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Open Letter to Dan
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:05:41 -0400
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) -----Original Message-----
) From: Dan Dugan [mailto:dan dandugan.com]
)
) Can you imagine another kind of school where a teacher
) wouldn't be allowed
) to bring a guest speaker to a class parents meeting?
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
I have no trouble imagining it at all.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1314.3 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Open Letter to Dan
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:41:26 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199905161818.LAA01272 lists1.best.com)
(199905161718.KAA06640 lists1.best.com)
(199905151250.FAA15235 lists1.best.com)
(199905110923.CAA05680 lists1.best.com)
(199905101943.MAA22418 lists1.best.com)
(199905101633.JAA22786 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199905171818.LAA21674 lists1.best.com)
)No inconvenience here. I'm afraid you, however, will now be under suspicion
)of being a troublemaker with your College of Teachers.
I don't think my image has suffered. My colleagues already know me as
outspoken, opinionated, and courageously foolish.
So far as the school is concerned, what's most telling is the process. In
the course of our discussion, I made my views clear, it became obvious that
I did not represent the majority position, and we resolved the issue
without rancor. It didn't go my way, but there were no temper tantrums or
namecalling or personal attacks or even hard feelings.
The process was respected. Ultimately we grow in relation to one another
within the group, even as we recognize our differences as individuals.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
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From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Open Letter to Dan
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:06:51 +0200
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References: (199905161718.KAA06640 lists1.best.com)
(199905151250.FAA15235 lists1.best.com)
(199905110923.CAA05680 lists1.best.com)
(199905101943.MAA22418 lists1.best.com)
(199905101633.JAA22786 lists1.best.com) (199905171818.LAA21674 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan wrote:
) Can you imagine another kind of school where a teacher wouldn't be allowed
) to bring a guest speaker to a class parents meeting?
You _really_ sound innocent. Some small show.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1314.5 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: web counter 25,721
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:06:43 -0700
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On May 12, 1999, the PLANS web site had registered 25,721 visitors since
August 12, 1996. That's 1229 visitors in the last month, averaging 41 per
day.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1314.6 ---------------
From: "Duane Koons" (dkoons gundluth.org)
Subject: Re: moral values
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:29:04 -0500
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I understand that waldorf supportors have generally been against the use of
standardized tests However widespread use of standardized testing didn't
occur until after Steiner's death. Does anyone know the origin of this
opposition to testing? Did Steiner have anything specific to say about
standardized tests? Thanks Duane
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1314.7 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Open letter to Dan
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 10:54:36 -0400
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One additional thought on the question of Dan not being able to
visit a parents meeting at Robert Flannery's class...
As most of you probably know, I am a parent at the same school where
Robert Flannery teaches. I have participated in a number of parent
meetings, usually 4 to 5 per year for each grade that my 2 kids attend.
These parent meetings fill the need for parents to talk as a group with the
teacher on subjects pertaining to the class; i.e., curriculum, class
dynamics and so forth. I've never been to a class meeting which was not
centered *on the class*, nor would I want to.
I'm looking forward with great anticipation to Dan's visit in the
fall, but IMHO a class meeting is not the right venue. With all due respect
to Robert Flannery, I suspect the parents in his class would not have been
happy with having their normal business interrupted.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1314.8 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: Anthroposophical Medicine
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:09:06 -0400
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Even though I don't give the SJU Waldorf list much more than a
passing glance, there was a recent post on a subject which has been of
interest on this list. Apparently, the British medical journal "The Lancet"
has published an article on anthroposophical medicine:
The Lancet (05/01/99) Vol. 353, No. 9163, P. 1485; Alm, Johan S.; Swartz,
Jackie; Lilja, Gunnar; et al., has an article titled, "Atopy in Children of
Families With an Anthroposophic Lifestyle"
I visited the website (http://www.thelancet.com/newlancet/) but as a
non-subscribing person, I was unable even to obtain an abstract. The
contributor to the SJU list did include an abstract, and I will presume it
to be "fair use" to quote that abstract here for those who might be
interested:
"Researchers studied children at two anthroposophic schools near
Sweden to investigate the prevalence of atopy in children from
anthroposophic families and the influence of an anthroposophic
lifestyle on atopy prevalence. The concept of anthroposophy,
which was established in the early 20th century by Rudolf
Steiner, has been applied to many facets of life, including
education, medicine, and agriculture. Physicians following the
school limit the use of antibiotics, antipyretics, and
vaccinations. In the study, 295 children from Steiner schools
were compared to 380 children from neighboring schools on the
basis of history of atopic and infectious diseases, use of
antibiotics and vaccinations, and social and environmental
allergens. The data show that 90 percent of the control students
had had antibiotics, while only about 50 of the Steiner children
had. In addition, whereas 93 percent of the controls had been
vaccinated against measles, mumps, and rubella, only 18 percent
of the children at Steiner schools had received the vaccine, and
over 60 percent of the Steiner students had had measles in the
past. Using skin-prick tests and blood tests, the researchers
determined the children from Steiner schools had a lower
prevalence of atopy than children from other families. They
noted that lifestyle factors related to anthroposophy may reduce
the risk of childhood atopy."
"Atopy" (I had to look it up): "A probably hereditary allergy
characterized by symptoms (as asthma, hay fever, or hives) produced upon
exposure to the exciting antigen without inoculation."
Note that the abstract does not imply an endorsement of
anthroposophical medicine, and I suspect that the full article probably
suggests that more research would be necessary to determine why children of
the anthroposophical families had fewer allergic reactions than the control
group.
It's also unclear to me from the abstract how the children in the
two groups compared in being stricken with measles, mumps and rubella.
Bob Tolz
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1314 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1315 --------------
001 - "pandora" (pandora aa.net - Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
002 - Tarjei Straume (tastraum - Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
003 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
004 - vklos (vklos cwix.com) - Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
005 - "ksutphen" (ksutphen jps. - RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
006 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
007 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Anthroposophical Medicine
008 - Tarjei Straume (tastraum - RE: Anthroposophical Medicine
009 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
010 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Anthroposophical Medicine
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1315.1 ---------------
From: "pandora" (pandora aa.net)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:37:50 -0700
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I have noticed that Anthroposophical medicine closely parallels
naturopathic medicine. The basic tenet of both "methods" seems to be that,
by feeding a child healthy food and supporting their immune system in its
development (with herbs, supplements, and other treatments such as
homeopathy, instead of directly changing it with vaccines), you can ensure
better health than with standard medicine and all of its antibiotics,
shots, and surgeries. Anthroposophical medicine does have a few weird
beliefs, I think, but the basic approach to health is probably sound from a
naturopathic view.
I'm not an anthroposophist, but, hey, it works for me.
Since my family switched to a naturopathic physician we have used
antibiotics but once; even then, it was the naturopath who prescribed them
for my first sinus infection, which I allowed to get really bad before
seeking treatment because I did not know what it was. Using naturopathic
medicine we have cured several sinus infections (the first one which came
back after the one treated with antibiotics, probably because they tend to
make the bacteria stronger), ear infections, bronchitis, carpal tunnel....
all with supplements, herbs, homeopathy, and dietary changes. I am director
of a preschool, and I can honestly say that my kid is one of the healthiest
around.
It seems to me that, if these Anthro people are breastfeeding their babies,
then feeding them organic, whole foods, and avoiding potentially unhealthy
pathogens (such as pesticides, chemical food additives, and the
formaldehyde and animal DNA that are often found in vaccines, among other
things), it would make simple sense that their kids would be in some way
healthier than those in the control group.
The interesting thing to research, since this particular article was about
allergies, would be to compare how many of the Anthro kids were breastfed
versus those in the control group. From what I've researched on my own as
to the benefits of breastfeeding, that alone could be the reason for the
difference....possibly. Nutrition is a biggie after infancy, too.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1315.2 ---------------
From: Tarjei Straume (tastraum online.no)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 00:51:42 +0200
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In-Reply-To: (199905181504.IAA18299 lists1.best.com)
Bob Tolz wrote:
) Even though I don't give the SJU Waldorf list much more than a
)passing glance, there was a recent post on a subject which has been of
)interest on this list. Apparently, the British medical journal "The Lancet"
)has published an article on anthroposophical medicine:
)
)The Lancet (05/01/99) Vol. 353, No. 9163, P. 1485; Alm, Johan S.; Swartz,
)Jackie; Lilja, Gunnar; et al., has an article titled, "Atopy in Children of
)Families With an Anthroposophic Lifestyle"
This title blows me away. I don't know what an Anthroposophic lifestyle is,
because I've never heard of it. It reminds me of an article written in the
1960's by a Norwegian professor about "the long haired lifestyle." Long
hair was supposed to make you behave in a certain way and make you
vulnerable to specific social, psychological, and medical pathologies (like
drug addiction and passivity).
Atopy is, According to my Webster, hereditary allergy with symtoms such as
asthma, hives, etc. So anthroposophy is supposed to make you more likely to
catch such allergies and diseases? And this bullshit is being served on a
"members only" website? I didn't even get in as a non-subscriber without a
password. "Authorization failed for non-subscriber access."
Do any of you critics know some of those sinister, secretive creeps?
Tarjei Straume
Greetings from Uncle Taz
http://www.uncletaz.com/
Anarchosophy, anarchism, anthroposophy, occultism, Christianity, poetry,
plays, library, articles, galleries, marijuana, criminality, death, skulls,
skeletons, banners, links, links, links. Big section in Norwegian.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1315.3 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 01:05:51 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199905181504.IAA18299 lists1.best.com)
Robert Tolz wrote:
) Even though I don't give the SJU Waldorf list much more than a
) passing glance, there was a recent post on a subject which has been of
) interest on this list. Apparently, the British medical journal "The Lancet"
) has published an article on anthroposophical medicine:
)
) The Lancet (05/01/99) Vol. 353, No. 9163, P. 1485; Alm, Johan S.; Swartz,
) Jackie; Lilja, Gunnar; et al., has an article titled, "Atopy in Children of
) Families With an Anthroposophic Lifestyle"
)
) I visited the website (http://www.thelancet.com/newlancet/) but as a
) non-subscribing person, I was unable even to obtain an abstract. The
) contributor to the SJU list did include an abstract, and I will presume it
) to be "fair use" to quote that abstract here for those who might be
) interested:
)
) "Researchers studied children ...
A more full abstract can be found via Free Medline at
http://www.medportal.com/ by searching with "Swartz" and "atopic"
According to the abstract that can be found at
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=10232315&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b:
"Lancet 1999 May 1;353(9163):1485-8
Atopy in children of families with an anthroposophic lifestyle.
Alm JS, Swartz J, Lilja G, Scheynius A, Pershagen G
Department of Laboratory Medicine, Karolinska Institute and Hospital,
Stockholm, Sweden. Johan.Alm sos.ki.se
[Medline record in process]
BACKGROUND: Increased prevalence of atopic disorders in children may be
associated with changes in types of childhood infections, vaccination
programmes, and intestinal microflora. People who follow an
anthroposophic way of life use antibiotics restrictively, have few
vaccinations, and their diet usually contains live lactobacilli, which
may affect the intestinal microflora. We aimed to study the prevalence
of atopy in children from anthroposophic families and the influence of
an anthroposophic lifestyle on atopy prevalence.
METHODS: In a cross-sectional study, 295 children aged 5-13 years at two
anthroposophic (Steiner) schools near Stockholm, Sweden, were compared
with 380 children of the same age at two neighbouring schools in terms
of history of atopic and infectious diseases, use of antibiotics and
vaccinations, and social and environmental variables. Skin-prick tests
were done for 13 common allergens, and we took blood samples from
children and their parents for analysis of allergen-specific serum
IgE-antibodies.
FINDINGS: At the Steiner schools, 52% of the children had had
antibiotics in the past, compared with 90% in the control schools. 18%
and 93% of children, respectively, had had combined immunisation against
measles, mumps, and rubella, and 61% of the children at the Steiner
schools had had measles. Fermented vegetables, containing live
lactobacilli, were consumed by 63% of the children at Steiner schools,
compared with 4.5% at the control schools. Skin-prick tests and blood
tests showed that the children from Steiner schools had lower prevalence
of atopy than controls (odds ratio 0.62 [95% CI 0.43-0.91]). There was
an inverse relation between the number of characteristic features of an
anthroposophic lifestyle and risk of atopy (p for trend=0.01).
INTERPRETATION: Prevalence of atopy is lower in children from
anthroposophic families than in children from other families. Lifestyle
factors associated with anthroposophy may lessen the risk of atopy in
childhood.
PMID: 10232315, UI: 99247275"
Regards,
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1315.4 ---------------
From: vklos (vklos cwix.com)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 22:36:38 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
please take me off your list
thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: Tarjei Straume (tastraum online.no)
To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Date: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
)Bob Tolz wrote:
)
)) Even though I don't give the SJU Waldorf list much more than a
))passing glance, there was a recent post on a subject which has been of
))interest on this list. Apparently, the British medical journal "The
Lancet"
))has published an article on anthroposophical medicine:
))
))The Lancet (05/01/99) Vol. 353, No. 9163, P. 1485; Alm, Johan S.; Swartz,
))Jackie; Lilja, Gunnar; et al., has an article titled, "Atopy in Children
of
))Families With an Anthroposophic Lifestyle"
)
)This title blows me away. I don't know what an Anthroposophic lifestyle is,
)because I've never heard of it. It reminds me of an article written in the
)1960's by a Norwegian professor about "the long haired lifestyle." Long
)hair was supposed to make you behave in a certain way and make you
)vulnerable to specific social, psychological, and medical pathologies (like
)drug addiction and passivity).
)
)Atopy is, According to my Webster, hereditary allergy with symtoms such as
)asthma, hives, etc. So anthroposophy is supposed to make you more likely to
)catch such allergies and diseases? And this bullshit is being served on a
)"members only" website? I didn't even get in as a non-subscriber without a
)password. "Authorization failed for non-subscriber access."
)
)Do any of you critics know some of those sinister, secretive creeps?
)
)
)
)
)Tarjei Straume
)
)Greetings from Uncle Taz
)
)http://www.uncletaz.com/
)
)Anarchosophy, anarchism, anthroposophy, occultism, Christianity, poetry,
)plays, library, articles, galleries, marijuana, criminality, death, skulls,
)skeletons, banners, links, links, links. Big section in Norwegian.
)
)
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1315.5 ---------------
From: "ksutphen" (ksutphen jps.net)
Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 20:12:18 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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Bob Williams:
)) )Might your experience in the RSC Public School Waldorf
)) Teachers Training
)) )have been different than the majority of public school
)) teachers who go
)) )through the training without being a part of a special
)) "Waldorf project?"
Kathy Sutphen responds:
)) I don't know. I suspect that the approach has changed
)) somewhat since the
)) public school training came under the spotlight.
Bob Tolz:
) Do you think any changes that might have occurred in the approach
)since you were there should have any bearing on the PLANS lawsuit?
Kathy:
I assume you're asking me this: If there have, indeed, been changes and RSC
has managed to tidy up their Public School Training and exorcise the obvious
(to the unknowing) Anthroposophical links, would I then think that the PLANS
lawsuit would now have no validity re: the illegality of usurping public
school funds to teach public school teachers religiously based pedagogical
technique.
My answer is no. I believe that RSC is illegally procuring public school
funds because they are a sectarian insitution and the Waldorf pedagogy is
designed specifically to enhance the spiritual evolution/growth of
children's souls per Anthroposophical religious belief. I have absolutely no
doubt, whatsoever, that RSC does *not* inform their attendees and/or their
funding school districts, of the religious beliefs underlying *all* of the
activities that they have the teachers participate in. I also believe there
are several problems with the training at RSC that go over and beyond the
fact that they are a religious institution and their pedagogy is based on
religious belief. I also believe that they intentionally engage in a program
of false advertising and strive to enlist more and more school districts
into *buying (as in $$$) into* their training sessions.
Hope this answers your question.
Kathy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1315.6 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 23:40:07 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
) Bob Tolz:
) ) Do you think any changes that might have occurred in the approach
) )since you were there should have any bearing on the PLANS lawsuit?
)
) Kathy:
) I assume you're asking me this: If there have, indeed, been
) changes and RSC
) has managed to tidy up their Public School Training and
) exorcise the obvious
) (to the unknowing) Anthroposophical links, would I then think
) that the PLANS
) lawsuit would now have no validity re: the illegality of
) usurping public
) school funds to teach public school teachers religiously
) based pedagogical
) technique.
Correct
)
) My answer is no. I believe that RSC is illegally procuring
) public school
) funds because they are a sectarian insitution and the Waldorf
) pedagogy is
) designed specifically to enhance the spiritual evolution/growth of
) children's souls per Anthroposophical religious belief. I
) have absolutely no
) doubt, whatsoever, that RSC does *not* inform their attendees
) and/or their
) funding school districts, of the religious beliefs underlying
) *all* of the
) activities that they have the teachers participate in. I also
) believe there
) are several problems with the training at RSC that go over
) and beyond the
) fact that they are a religious institution and their pedagogy
) is based on
) religious belief. I also believe that they intentionally
) engage in a program
) of false advertising and strive to enlist more and more
) school districts
) into *buying (as in $$$) into* their training sessions.
So, to sum up, you believe it's irrelevant to your lawsuit whether
or not the pedagogy has a secular purpose, correct?
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1315.7 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Anthroposophical Medicine
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 23:47:41 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="windows-1252"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Tarjei Straume [mailto:tastraum online.no]
)
) Atopy is, According to my Webster, hereditary allergy with
) symtoms such as
) asthma, hives, etc. So anthroposophy is supposed to make you
) more likely to
) catch such allergies and diseases? And this bullshit is being
) served on a
) "members only" website? I didn't even get in as a
) non-subscriber without a
) password. "Authorization failed for non-subscriber access."
You need to correct your eyeglass prescription, Tarjei. The
abstract suggests that the "anthroposophical lifestyle," whatever that is,
might make you *less* likely to have allergic reactions.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1315.8 ---------------
From: Tarjei Straume (tastraum online.no)
Subject: RE: Anthroposophical Medicine
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 06:09:50 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: (199905190342.UAA19584 lists1.best.com)
Bob Tolz wrote:
) You need to correct your eyeglass prescription, Tarjei. The
)abstract suggests that the "anthroposophical lifestyle," whatever that is,
)might make you *less* likely to have allergic reactions.
I stand corrected, but it's still enigmatic and nonsensical. It could be
that a biodynamic vegetarian diet has certain medical benefits like that,
but that kind of diet is not restricted to anthropops, and most anthropops
have a more or less mixed diet, including junk food. Eurythmy, perhaps, may
have unrecognized health benefits, but it would be very strange indeed if
it had anything to do with allergies. No, I don't get it, this
anthroposophical lifestyle. Is it anything like the long-haired lifestyle?
Anything to do with fashion, movies, sports? It must have to do with
recreational activities of some sorts. Does it have anything to do with the
spiritual exercises reccommended by Steiner? Has anyone published a book
describing this anthroposophical lifestyle?
Tarjei Straume
Greetings from Uncle Taz
http://www.uncletaz.com/
Anarchosophy, anarchism, anthroposophy, occultism, Christianity, poetry,
plays, library, articles, galleries, marijuana, criminality, death, skulls,
skeletons, banners, links, links, links. Big section in Norwegian.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1315.9 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:04:20 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199905190336.UAA15398 lists1.best.com)
Robert Tolz writes:
)) Bob Tolz:
)) ) Do you think any changes that might have occurred in the approach
)) )since you were there should have any bearing on the PLANS lawsuit?
))
)) Kathy:
)) My answer is no. I believe that RSC is illegally procuring
)) public school
)) funds because they are a sectarian insitution and the Waldorf
)) pedagogy is
)) designed specifically to enhance the spiritual evolution/growth of
)) children's souls per Anthroposophical religious belief. I
)) have absolutely no
)) doubt, whatsoever, that RSC does *not* inform their attendees
)) and/or their
)) funding school districts, of the religious beliefs underlying
)) *all* of the
)) activities that they have the teachers participate in. I also
)) believe there
)) are several problems with the training at RSC that go over
)) and beyond the
)) fact that they are a religious institution and their pedagogy
)) is based on
)) religious belief. I also believe that they intentionally
)) engage in a program
)) of false advertising and strive to enlist more and more
)) school districts
)) into *buying (as in $$$) into* their training sessions.
)
) So, to sum up, you believe it's irrelevant to your lawsuit whether
)or not the pedagogy has a secular purpose, correct?
)
) Bob Tolz
Michael KOPP says:
Objection. Counsel is leading the witness. The question calls for a
conclusion by the witness.
Furthermore, counsel has no standing in the court. Furthermore, the suit is
not Kathy Sutphen's suit, it is PLANS' suit, and Kathy Sutphen is not
PLANS, although she may be associated with it in some way.
For those who don't know, Tolz is a lawyer, practicing in New York State,
while PLANS' suit is in California. But Tolz, a parent of children in a
Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical school and a staunch defender of the SWA
faith, has been in contact privately with at least some of the attorneys
involved in the California suit.
I think it's obvious Tolz is on a fishing expedition. The question is, what
is he fishing for, and why, and what will he do with the catch when he has
it?
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp (amicus curiae)
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1315.10 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Anthroposophical Medicine
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:31:16 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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charset="windows-1252"
) Bob Tolz wrote:
)
) ) You need to correct your eyeglass prescription, Tarjei. The
) )abstract suggests that the "anthroposophical lifestyle,"
) whatever that is,
) )might make you *less* likely to have allergic reactions.
)
[Tarjei Straume]
) I stand corrected, but it's still enigmatic and nonsensical.
) It could be
) that a biodynamic vegetarian diet has certain medical
) benefits like that,
) but that kind of diet is not restricted to anthropops, and
) most anthropops
) have a more or less mixed diet, including junk food.
) Eurythmy, perhaps, may
) have unrecognized health benefits, but it would be very
) strange indeed if
) it had anything to do with allergies. No, I don't get it, this
) anthroposophical lifestyle.
I agree with you. It would seem to me that the study probably
invites more research on the use of antibiotics and vaccinations rather than
on the anthroposophical lifestyle. If, however, more reserved use of
antibiotics and vaccinations is a tenet of anthroposophical medicine (or
homeopathic medicine), then the article may compel further consideration by
mainstream medicine of other tenets of those particular medical practices.
Bob Tolz
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1315 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1316 --------------
001 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
002 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
003 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
004 - "pandora" (pandora aa.net - Re: RSC Public School Teachers Training
005 - "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf pe - Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
006 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
007 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: RSC Public School Teachers Training
008 - "ksutphen" (ksutphen jps. - RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
009 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
010 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1316.1 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:31:18 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="windows-1252"
) )
) ) So, to sum up, you believe it's irrelevant to your
) lawsuit whether
) )or not the pedagogy has a secular purpose, correct?
) )
) ) Bob Tolz
)
) Michael KOPP says:
) Furthermore, counsel has no standing in the court. Furthermore,
) the suit is not Kathy Sutphen's suit, it is PLANS' suit, and
) Kathy Sutphen is not PLANS, although she may be associated with
) it in some way.
I've missed you Michael. It's too quiet around here when you're
absent.
Forgive me my over-broad statement. Strike my comment about "your
lawsuit" and change it to "your (in your capacity as an officer of PLANS)
lawsuit."
) For those who don't know, Tolz is a lawyer, practicing in New
) York State,
) while PLANS' suit is in California. But Tolz, a parent of
) children in a
) Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical school and a staunch
) defender of the SWA
) faith, has been in contact privately with at least some of
) the attorneys
) involved in the California suit.
Change "staunch defender of the faith" to "Waldorf Critic Critic
(TM)".
Change "at least some of the attorneys" to "all of the attorneys".
)
) I think it's obvious Tolz is on a fishing expedition. The
) question is, what
) is he fishing for, and why, and what will he do with the
) catch when he has
) it?
Fishing expedition? That's a term I think Bob Jones used once with
me and was never kind enough to explain what he meant by it in the context
of the discussion we were then having. I know, Bob Jones and Michael Kopp
are actually the same person, using different names! ;-)
The only fishing expedition I'm engaged in here is to explore the
legal issues, which I thought was of at least passing interest to the
participants on this list.
As I've reported, PLANS attorney advised me that the defendants have
now filed a motion for summary judgment to dismiss the PLANS case. I've
requested a copy of the summary judgment motion papers from both sides, but
haven't received anything yet.
In an earlier conversation, the PLANS lawyer had indicated to me
that he believed that PLANS could easily show constitutional transgressions
and that it would be the burden of the defendant to show that those
transgressions no longer exist or that it was possible for the pedagogy to
be taught without transgressions.
When Kathy was having a discussion with another list-member
regarding changes in how things were being done, it brought to mind her (in
her capacity as an officer of PLANS) attorney's comments. I wanted to get
her individual thinking on the issue. That's what I was fishing for, and I
got it. Her analysis is not exactly the same as her (in her capacity as an
officer of PLANS) attorney's analysis, but that doesn't trouble me.
Kathy's position appears to be that the problem with Waldorf in the
public schools is one which is not capable of being remedied in a
constitutionally satisfactory way, because the entire underpinnings are too
religious, and there are too many entanglements (economic and otherwise)
with the Rudolf Steiner College, which she considers to be a religious
institution.
In several discussions during the year I've been participating in
the list, I've stressed that I think that a judge is likely to respect the
judgment of a school district if its managers determine that a pedagogy has
strong secular purposes, regardless of where the pedagogy stemmed from.
Kathy and I obviously disagree on that, and, as it turns out, it looks like
that's going to be one of the central issues to be determined in Kathy's (in
her capacity as an officer of PLANS) lawsuit.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1316.2 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:13:59 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In-Reply-To: (199905191428.HAA24128 lists1.best.com)
On 19 May 99, at 10:31, Tolz, Robert wrote:
) As I've reported, PLANS attorney advised me that the defendants have now
) filed a motion for summary judgment to dismiss the PLANS case. I've
) requested a copy of the summary judgment motion papers from both sides,
) but haven't received anything yet.
When you do, could you summarize the arguments for us (or at
least, for me)? I'm very interested.
[Caution - technical legal discussion follows, which may not mean
much to non-lawyers on the list.]
In California, summary judgment is handled a bit differently from
federal courts. Basically, it's considerably more difficult to prevail
on a summary judgment motion in California court. I'm not very
familiar with federal court procedure, as I've never practiced in
federal court, but in California courts, a defendant can only prevail
on a summary judgment motion by showing that either (a) the
plaintiff cannot meet an element of the cause of action, or (b) an
affirmative defense applies under the undisputed facts.
I'm sure this is the same as everywhere, but in California, you can't
prevail by simply asserting that the plaintiff has no evidence to
support a particular contention, and then put the burden on the
plaintiff to come forward with evidence in opposition to the motion.
You need an actual admission from the plaintiff that he has no
evidence to support the assertion. Usually this is obtained in
discovery, in response to an interrogatory asking the plaintiff to
state "all facts to support your contention that..."
Also, I believe that in federal court, the court may find a fact to be
undisputed if there is no substantial evidence to the contrary. In
California, the fact is undisputed only if there is no evidence at all
to the contrary. As long as there is evidence which supports the
contention, the motion will be denied even if the evidence is very,
very weak.
) In an earlier conversation, the PLANS lawyer had indicated to me
) that he believed that PLANS could easily show constitutional
) transgressions and that it would be the burden of the defendant to show
) that those transgressions no longer exist or that it was possible for the
) pedagogy to be taught without transgressions.
Showing that it is possible for the pedagogy to be taught without
transgressions would not entitle the district to summary judgment,
although it might avoid a permanent injunction against the school
being a Waldorf school. Instead, the injunction might be more
narrowly drawn to enjoin only the constitutional transgressions.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1316.3 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:56:09 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: (199905191428.HAA24128 lists1.best.com)
Robert Tolz says:
) I've missed you Michael. It's too quiet around here when you're
)absent.
Michael KOPP says:
I'll speak to the cloning researchers here in Godzone, Robert, and see if I
can't make a few more of me for your pleasure.
TOLZ:
) Change "staunch defender of the faith" to "Waldorf Critic Critic
)(TM)".
KOPP:
No. You _are_ a DOF. Your "criticism" of "Waldorf Critics" is the standard
DOF line, sharpened by your courtroom cross-examination technique, and an
instinct to go for the jugular (c.f., your telling me I'm sounding
paranoid). You're better at debating than you are at understanding or
criticizing in rational terms
TOLZ [regarding his personal contact with attorneys in the PLANS lawsuit in
California]:
) Change "at least some of the attorneys" to "all of the attorneys".
KOPP:
Now, isn't that interesting? A man with a thinly-veiled bias against one of
the litigants in a civil suit on the opposite side of the country just
happens to chat up all the lawyers involved in the suit. Professional
privilege, I guess, goes a long way in the brotherhood of the law.
Wonder what would happen if I, as a journalist with an open and declared
bias against one of the litigants in that suit rang up the attorneys and
chatted them up? Wonder what Tolz would have to say about that, if I
published my findings in this forum?
[KOPP]
)) I think it's obvious Tolz is on a fishing expedition. The
)) question is, what
)) is he fishing for, and why, and what will he do with the
)) catch when he has
)) it?
TOLZ:
) Fishing expedition? That's a term I think Bob Jones used once with
)me and was never kind enough to explain what he meant by it in the context
)of the discussion we were then having. I know, Bob Jones and Michael Kopp
)are actually the same person, using different names! ;-)
KOPP:
And which one of the names or personas is the real one, if either? And who
is Robert Tolz? Perhaps he's really Tarjei Straume, or Stephen Tonkin, or
... David "Lefty" Schlesinger, come back from the departed ....
TOLZ:
) The only fishing expedition I'm engaged in here is to explore the
)legal issues, which I thought was of at least passing interest to the
)participants on this list.
KOPP:
While the case is pending? When you are hardly a disinterested party?
And "exploring the legal issues" by trying to get one of the minor parties
to the suit to talk about the issues in the suit, and justify them, out of
court?
Pull the other one, Mr Tolz.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp (today, at least, perhaps ...)
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1316.4 ---------------
From: "pandora" (pandora aa.net)
Subject: Re: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:49:44 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Gee, Mister Kopp, NOW I remember why I removed myself from this list a year
ago!
Do you really have nothing better to do than personally attack others
online? You sound like a stressed-out, hormonal teenager in an unsupervised
chatroom! "Go for the jugular," indeed!
Look who's talking.
I AM a *Waldorf critic*, but I am truly interested in the debate, thank you
very much. You seem to think you speak for everyone who is skeptical of
Waldorf that receives these e-mails. Well, you don't. I want to argue as
much as the next guy, but why does it have to get so ugly? What is this
list for? Is it truly a critics list where people can discuss the issues
involved, or is it more of a private club, bitch-fest that would be more
appropriately located in some chat room on Yahoo?
Some of your posts - and I am directing this to all who post on this list,
not just Michael Kopp - fairly drip with bitterness, not to mention plain
ol' *meanness*.
Now, I realize that you've been discussing a lawsuit, so I guess there's
nothing new or surprising there, but is it really neccessary to behave as
viciously as if it were your own personal divorce or something?
Lighten up, and do try to be civil.
Remarks obviously designed to inflame, like "You're better at debating than
you are at understanding or criticizing in rational terms" simply aren't
helpful to anybody. Is not debate one way to understanding? I find this
brand of 'criticizing' abhorrent. Please, let's stick to the debate,
instead of descending to spiteful name-calling. If you want people to
listen to your opinions, you need to remember they probably *won't* listen
if you scream in their faces (literally or figuratively).
I can't find any other site or list to discuss Waldorf in a critical light,
but I simply don't have the stomach for this personal attack crap. I've
been back exactly one day and I've already begun to think that you folks
are just as crazy as the Antrhopops!
Pandora
Robert Tolz says:
) I've missed you Michael. It's too quiet around here when you're
)absent.
Michael KOPP says:
I'll speak to the cloning researchers here in Godzone, Robert, and see if I
can't make a few more of me for your pleasure.
TOLZ:
) Change "staunch defender of the faith" to "Waldorf Critic Critic
)(TM)".
KOPP:
No. You _are_ a DOF. Your "criticism" of "Waldorf Critics" is the standard
DOF line, sharpened by your courtroom cross-examination technique, and an
instinct to go for the jugular (c.f., your telling me I'm sounding
paranoid). You're better at debating than you are at understanding or
criticizing in rational terms
TOLZ [regarding his personal contact with attorneys in the PLANS lawsuit in
California]:
) Change "at least some of the attorneys" to "all of the attorneys".
KOPP:
Now, isn't that interesting? A man with a thinly-veiled bias against one of
the litigants in a civil suit on the opposite side of the country just
happens to chat up all the lawyers involved in the suit. Professional
privilege, I guess, goes a long way in the brotherhood of the law.
Wonder what would happen if I, as a journalist with an open and declared
bias against one of the litigants in that suit rang up the attorneys and
chatted them up? Wonder what Tolz would have to say about that, if I
published my findings in this forum?
[KOPP]
)) I think it's obvious Tolz is on a fishing expedition. The
)) question is, what
)) is he fishing for, and why, and what will he do with the
)) catch when he has
)) it?
TOLZ:
) Fishing expedition? That's a term I think Bob Jones used once with
)me and was never kind enough to explain what he meant by it in the context
)of the discussion we were then having. I know, Bob Jones and Michael Kopp
)are actually the same person, using different names! ;-)
KOPP:
And which one of the names or personas is the real one, if either? And who
is Robert Tolz? Perhaps he's really Tarjei Straume, or Stephen Tonkin, or
... David "Lefty" Schlesinger, come back from the departed ....
TOLZ:
) The only fishing expedition I'm engaged in here is to explore the
)legal issues, which I thought was of at least passing interest to the
)participants on this list.
KOPP:
While the case is pending? When you are hardly a disinterested party?
And "exploring the legal issues" by trying to get one of the minor parties
to the suit to talk about the issues in the suit, and justify them, out of
court?
Pull the other one, Mr Tolz.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp (today, at least, perhaps ...)
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1316.5 ---------------
From: "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf peakpeak.com)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 20:52:24 -0600
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-
If, however, more reserved use of
)antibiotics and vaccinations is a tenet of anthroposophical medicine (or
)homeopathic medicine), then the article may compel further consideration by
)mainstream medicine of other tenets of those particular medical practices.
)
) Bob Tolz
. When an individual family declines to immunize its children, those
children still get all the benefits of immunization (because all their
comrades are immunized), with none of the risks, because the risks are
passed on to those families who accept the immunization. From a spiritual
standpoint refusing immunization may be desirable, but from a societal
standpoint it is unethical.
Alan S. Fine MD
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1316.6 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:06:30 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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charset="windows-1252"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Michael Kopp [mailto:mkopp xtra.co.nz]
) instinct to go for the jugular (c.f., your telling me I'm sounding
) paranoid).
[Bob Tolz]
For the umpteenth time, I've never said you sound paranoid. When
are you going to stop confusing me with other people?
)
) Wonder what would happen if I, as a journalist with an open
) and declared
) bias against one of the litigants in that suit rang up the
) attorneys and
) chatted them up? Wonder what Tolz would have to say about that, if I
) published my findings in this forum?
I'd say, "Thank you."
)
) While the case is pending? When you are hardly a disinterested party?
I have no stake or interest in (though I am interested in) the
outcome of the litigation.
Bob Tolz (not Robert Flannery)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1316.7 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:02:06 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199905200148.SAA08595 lists1.best.com)
"Pandora" writes:
)Gee, Mister Kopp, NOW I remember why I removed myself from this list a year
)ago!
KOPP:
Gee, and "Pandora" never even had the benefit of the gentle correction I
have offered to other new posters such as Lisa (MomOf2Gals in Baltimore)
when they came on the list and spouted nonsense or unmitigated, canned,
regurgitated, party line Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposphical defenses.
Ummm, "Pandora", just why did you come back? Surely you hadn't heard that I
had suddenly become a fan of SWA or had developed a sugar coating, or that
I had shuffled off to meet my date with my karmic destiny?
"PANDORA"
)Do you really have nothing better to do than personally attack others
)online? You sound like a stressed-out, hormonal teenager in an unsupervised
)chatroom! "Go for the jugular," indeed!
)
)Look who's talking.
KOPP:
Stressed out? You bet. It's stressful being a rationalist in a world that
is turning into a fairy tale on the other side of the looking glass.
Hormonal teenager? Nah, I'm 55 and probably over the male menopause by now,
so it ain't hormones. Unless it's those of my son and daughter, 19 and 16,
who suffered five years of SWA educational madness before we could
disengage, and who are still suffering academically, socially, culturally,
and emotionally because of what happened to them in our Steiner school.
Don't you read the archives? Nah, I thought not. You crybabies are all
alike.
Chatroom? Unsupervised? Never use chat. As for unsupervised, yeah, I think
that's exactly why I like this list: it's totally free of the kind of mind
control your type wants to exercise on critics. Been there, done that, with
a fascist listmom named David "Lefty" Schlesinger, who ran the Waldorf list
as his pre-censored personal fiefdom of Steiner worship. (It's not much
better now. Why don't you go join that one, and try being a "Waldorf
critic" there?)
"PANDORA"
)I AM a *Waldorf critic*,
KOPP:
Really? To be a critic implies the application of some critical method
other than gee-whiz. Something like science. Something like reason.
Here are some quotes from your first post since (apparently) "returning" to
this list:
)Anthroposophical medicine does have a few weird beliefs,
)I think, but the basic approach to health is probably
)sound from a naturopathic view.
Translation: Anthroposophical medicine is proved effective by the
principles of naturopathy. In other words, one mumbo jumbo is proved by
another anti-rational, unscientific, mumbo jumbo.
)I'm not an anthroposophist, but, hey, it works for me.
Translation: I'm not into that "weird belief" system (Anthroposophy), but
my unscientific, UNCRITICAL belief in a similar "weird belief" system
(naturaopathy) is a good judge of what is or is not effective at healing.
)It seems to me that, if these Anthro people are breastfeeding
)their babies, [snip the other mumbo jumbo] it would make
)simple sense that their kids would be in some way healthier
)than those in the control group.
Translation: breastfeeding is know to have health benefits; some
Anthroposophists breastfeed their children; Anthroposophists also practice
a brand of naturopathy/homeopathy called Anthroposophical medicine; so, it
must also have health benefits like breastfeeding does.
)Using naturopathic medicine we have cured several sinus infections.
Translation: I believe that if I try something and simultaneously there is
a desirable event, it doesn't matter whether there is any scientific basis
or not for a causal link between the two, I am a better judge of what has
occured and why than those wussy old stuffed shirts who want to apply
science and reason.
Come on, "Pandora", you're about as critical a thinker as any other
new-age, gullible, wanna-believe, anti-rationalist, anti-scientific looney.
And you want _this_ CRITICS list to operate by YOUR rules and methods?
Bwaahahahahaha ....
"PANDORA
)but I am truly interested in the debate, thank you
)very much. You seem to think you speak for everyone who is skeptical of
)Waldorf that receives these e-mails. Well, you don't. I want to argue as
)much as the next guy, but why does it have to get so ugly? What is this
)list for? Is it truly a critics list where people can discuss the issues
)involved, or is it more of a private club, bitch-fest that would be more
)appropriately located in some chat room on Yahoo?
KOPP:
It gets ugly here because we ain't playing tiddlywinks, kiddo.
Anthroposophy, Anthroposophical "medicine", homeopathy, naturopathy, and
all the other new-age cults, are playing with the lives of more and more
people. They are also part of a popular anti-reason move back towards a
dark age of un-thought.
It gets ugly here because most of the critics' children have been
negatively affected by SWA, by the trickery and stealth of SWA schools. And
because the Defenders of the Faith of SWA are rock-hard and immovable in
their refusal to accept that this damage is inherent in the SWA pedagogy,
religion and philosophy, or believe that it can possibly be visited upon
large numbers of children in other schools.
It gets ugly here because the Defenders of the Faith are only interested in
the _appearance_ of reasoned discussion or debate. No defender has ever
publicly stated here that there is merit to the criticism of SWA's INHERENT
flaws, as opposed to the supposedly-isolated problems critics mention. It's
a one-sided argument, and never the twain shall meet.
But that was never the intention of this list. The critics are not out to
convert or convince any of the defenders. This list was started to discuss
critically, from OUTSIDE the belief system, the problems of SWA, and,
incidentally, to warn prospective customers and new buyers of SWA of what
they may expect in terms of potentially negative influences on their kids.
It's not a social club for people who want to politely disagree about the
weather, PANDORA (or whoever you are).
"PANDORA":
)Some of your posts - and I am directing this to all who post on this list,
)not just Michael Kopp - fairly drip with bitterness, not to mention plain
)ol' *meanness*.
)
)Now, I realize that you've been discussing a lawsuit, so I guess there's
)nothing new or surprising there, but is it really neccessary to behave as
)viciously as if it were your own personal divorce or something?
)
)Lighten up, and do try to be civil.
KOPP:
Just for the record, a check of the archives indicates that the first stone
is almost always cast by a Defender of the Faith. The archetype was the
fascist slime-slinger David "Lefty" Schlesinger, way back 3-1/2 years ago
in the first weeks of the list's existence.
It may be kaffee-klatsch schmoozing to you, "Pandora", but to many of us,
it IS as personal as a divorce, and as devastating to our lives.
"PANDORA":
)Remarks obviously designed to inflame, like "You're better at debating than
)you are at understanding or criticizing in rational terms" simply aren't
)helpful to anybody.
KOPP:
Calling me "paranoid", and many other ad hominem things, IS helpful? I
didn't see you jumping in the shit of any of the Defenders recently for
their ad hominems. Get real, "Pandora".
"PANDORA":
)Is not debate one way to understanding? I find this
)brand of 'criticizing' abhorrent. Please, let's stick to the debate,
)instead of descending to spiteful name-calling. If you want people to
)listen to your opinions, you need to remember they probably *won't* listen
)if you scream in their faces (literally or figuratively).
KOPP:
Tell that to the freedom riders of Selma or the anti-Vietnam-war
protesters. We calls 'em as we sees 'em, "Pandora", and nobody, including
you, is exempt. If you think I or the other critics are "screaming", then
maybe you should look over our shoulders and see the problems we're
screaming about.
"PANDORA":
)I can't find any other site or list to discuss Waldorf in a critical light,
)but I simply don't have the stomach for this personal attack crap. I've
)been back exactly one day and I've already begun to think that you folks
)are just as crazy as the Antrhopops!
KOPP:
Ummm, what, exactly, was your complaint, again, "Pandora"? What did I call
Robert Tolz that was such a personal attack? How do you generalize to the
entire group of critics from one supposed ad hominem on my part?
You're right about one thing, "Pandora": there isn't any other place in all
of the SWA realm where there is any _critical_ discussion of SWA.
May I respectfully suggest -- as I suggest with all the other newbies and
fragile flowers who come here and complain about the robustness of our
language -- that you go and read the archives before you start shotgunning
us loudmouths.
Maybe then you'll have some true understanding of the critics' criticisms.
Of course, if you'd stayed with us for the last year, you'd have that
anyway.
Welcome back, and please don't hesitate to drop in your two cents' worth
any time you want to demonstrate your brand of "criticism" again. It
certainly adds to the evidence for the view that Anthropops (and all other
new-agers) are, as you put it, "crazy".
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1316.8 ---------------
From: "ksutphen" (ksutphen jps.net)
Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:49:18 -0700
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Bob Tolz asks"
)
) So, to sum up, you believe it's irrelevant to your lawsuit whether
)or not the pedagogy has a secular purpose, correct?
Well, it's not *my* lawsuit. The suit isn't even *aimed* at my former school
site. But, as to your question: For one thing, I don't believe that Waldorf
education has a "secular purpose." Whatever Waldorf offers that may appear,
at first glance. to have a secular purpose, is offered by institutions that
can legally deliver the same information to public schools, sans the
religious indoctrination. When I attended RSC the instructors, particularly
Betty Staley, took care to mention with tremendous frequency that Waldorf
was the only teaching method that . . . blah, blah, blah . . . fill in the
blanks. But, I had been utilizing techniques akin to those taught at RSC for
a number of years. Teaching and reteaching is not a concept held only by
Waldorf teachers, nor is the integration of art and music across the
curriculum, or utilizing movement and rhythm to reinforce mathematical
concepts. Oral language has been stressed in California for years (much to
the dismay of current phonics enthusiasts that point to low reading scores
as being the direct result of whole and oral lanaguage based education). The
difference between the pedagogical practices I was initially introduced to
at a state university and those I was introduced to at RSC are, primarily,
the Anthroposophy. In other words, why attend classes offered by a religious
sect, when similar but more suitable classes in similar techniques can be
had less than 10 miles away at an accredited university?
I believe part of RSC's financial boon re: training public school teachers,
is that there is a serious teacher shortage in the US, particularly
California. Thousands upon thousands of people are being issued emergency
credentials and have not attended teaching training programs or they have
attended ones that are very short in duration and content. They are then
cast adrift in the classroom. What RSC has to offer looks very enticing on
first glance. I was quite enticed by the lovely art and those wonderful
books. Most of these folks don't notice there is something a tad amiss at
RSC - gosh knows they aren't informed that it is a religious institution or
even that it is an Anthroposophical institution or even what Anthroposophy
is. They aren't discriminating - they haven't any basis for comparison. So,
indeed, the pedagogy *appears* to be secular in nature. It takes a while to
catch on when the necessary information is being withheld.
I think it would be wonderful if public school teacher training money was
spent on accredited programs for developing professional pedagogical
practices, sans any religious influence. Our public educational system is
not supposed to give sway to any particular religious belief system, and
this line is crossed when the pedagogy is based on a religious belief
system, such as Anthroposophy.
Kathy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1316.9 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 06:41:32 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: (199905200300.UAA20149 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199905200300.UAA20149 lists1.best.com)
Alan S. Fine MD (asf peakpeak.com) wrote:
) When an individual family declines to immunize its children, those
)children still get all the benefits of immunization (because all their
)comrades are immunized),
If this is so, perhaps you could explain something. Presumably the
"benefits of immunization" include immunity from the disease (in fact,
I'd be interested to know what other benefits you suggest that
immunisation confers)? If that is so, why is it that unimmunised
children (immunisation is still voluntary in this country) still get
measles, pertussis, etc.?
) with none of the risks, because the risks are
)passed on to those families who accept the immunization. From a spiritual
)standpoint refusing immunization may be desirable, but from a societal
)standpoint it is unethical.
Your argument is flawed if your premise that non-immunisers are seeking
the benefits is false. If the non-immunisers are seeking to forgo both
the risks *and* the benefits (and I suggest that it is demonstrable that
they are), your argument falls over. They are merely exercising one of
the few freedoms remaining in an increasingly regulated society.
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1316.10 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:17:34 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199905200302.UAA21236 lists1.best.com)
Robert TOLZ (well, maybe it was Robert Tolz, who can tell?) said:
)) -----Original Message-----
)) From: Michael Kopp [mailto:mkopp xtra.co.nz]
)
)) instinct to go for the jugular (c.f., your telling me I'm sounding
)) paranoid).
)
)[Bob Tolz]
) For the umpteenth time, I've never said you sound paranoid. When
)are you going to stop confusing me with other people?
)
) Bob Tolz (not Robert Flannery)
KOPP:
When you stop sounding like someone else? How do we know you're not Robert
Flannery ghost-writing? (Or is that "spirit-writing", in Anthropop terms?)
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp (until sundown, maybe)
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1316 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1317 --------------
001 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
002 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
003 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Anthroposophical Medicine
004 - Tarjei Straume (tastraum - RE: Anthroposophical Medicine
005 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
006 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
007 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - Summary Judgment Motion
008 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
009 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Summary Judgment Motion
010 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1317.1 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:33:08 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199905200300.UAA20149 lists1.best.com) (199905200542.WAA02907 lists1.best.com)
Stephen wrote:
) They are merely exercising one of
) the few freedoms remaining in an increasingly regulated society.
Yes.
On a side note, read "The end of privacy. The surveillance society", a
three page editorial column in The Economist, May 1st 1999, p 19-23.
Big Brother, the total information control of all we do as the basis for
total behavioral control is rapidly approaching. Some happy future.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1317.2 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:22:02 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199905191428.HAA24128 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199905191615.JAA14486 lists1.best.com)
Steve Premo, you wrote,
)In California, summary judgment is handled a bit differently from
)federal courts. Basically, it's considerably more difficult to prevail
)on a summary judgment motion in California court. I'm not very
)familiar with federal court procedure, as I've never practiced in
)federal court, but in California courts, a defendant can only prevail
)on a summary judgment motion by showing that either (a) the
)plaintiff cannot meet an element of the cause of action, or (b) an
)affirmative defense applies under the undisputed facts.
We're not in a California court. It's a federal case.
-Dan Dugan
Dan Dugan Sound Design _/_/_/_/_/_/ Automatic Microphone Mixers
290 Napoleon St.#E USA _/ _/_/ _/ Nagra Sales and Service
San Francisco,CA 94124 _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ Custom CDs for Performance
voice (415) 821-9776 _/ _/_/ _/ E-mail dan dandugan.com
fax (415) 826-7699 _/_/_/_/_/_/ http://www.dandugan.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1317.3 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Anthroposophical Medicine
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 06:39:26 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="windows-1252"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Alan S. Fine MD [mailto:asf peakpeak.com]
)
) . When an individual family declines to immunize its children, those
) children still get all the benefits of immunization (because all their
) comrades are immunized), with none of the risks, because the risks are
) passed on to those families who accept the immunization.
) From a spiritual
) standpoint refusing immunization may be desirable, but from a societal
) standpoint it is unethical.
)
Now *that's* an interesting point which I have never heard before.
Do you have any references to which you can point me?
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1317.4 ---------------
From: Tarjei Straume (tastraum online.no)
Subject: RE: Anthroposophical Medicine
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:20:24 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199905201036.DAA04332 lists1.best.com)
Alan Fine wrote:
)) From a spiritual standpoint refusing immunization may be desirable, but
))from )) a societal standpoint it is unethical.
Bob Tolz wrote:
)
) Now *that's* an interesting point which I have never heard before.
)Do you have any references to which you can point me?
It's quite simple. Refusing to get recommended shots from the doctor is
part of this "anthroposphical lifestyle," which is immoral - just like the
"long haired lifestyle." As a hairy anthropop, I know I'm in a lot of
trouble.
Cheers
Tarjei Straume
Greetings from Uncle Taz
http://www.uncletaz.com/
Anarchosophy, anarchism, anthroposophy, occultism, Christianity, poetry,
plays, library, articles, galleries, marijuana, criminality, death, skulls,
skeletons, banners, links, links, links. Big section in Norwegian.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1317.5 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:44:47 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="windows-1252"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Michael Kopp [mailto:mkopp xtra.co.nz]
) )
) )[Bob Tolz]
) ) For the umpteenth time, I've never said you sound
) paranoid. When
) )are you going to stop confusing me with other people?
) )
) ) Bob Tolz (not Robert Flannery)
)
)
) KOPP:
)
) When you stop sounding like someone else? How do we know
) you're not Robert
) Flannery ghost-writing? (Or is that "spirit-writing", in
) Anthropop terms?)
Tell you what. Why don't you come over to New York in the fall when
Dan Dugan is scheduled to stop by. Flannery and I will stand side by side
so that you can see that we are not the same person (I'll be the one with
the beard). You can devise any test you like to assure yourself that each
of us is the person we hold ourselves out to be. In turn, we may wish to
devise some tests to make sure that you and Dan are not one and the same
person, since you both sound so much alike.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1317.6 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:44:47 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: ksutphen [mailto:ksutphen jps.net]
)
) Well, it's not *my* lawsuit. The suit isn't even *aimed* at
) my former school
) site. But, as to your question: For one thing, I don't
) believe that Waldorf
) education has a "secular purpose."
Offering an education is not a secular purpose?
) Whatever Waldorf offers
) that may appear,
) at first glance. to have a secular purpose, is offered by
) institutions that
) can legally deliver the same information to public schools, sans the
) religious indoctrination.
The fact that other institutions can deliver education sans
religious indoctrination does not detract from the defendants' potential
argument that they offer the same thing. I would expect them to argue (and
I know you disagree with this) that they can and do offer education without
religious indoctrination.
) When I attended RSC the
) instructors, particularly
) Betty Staley, took care to mention with tremendous frequency
) that Waldorf
) was the only teaching method that . . . blah, blah, blah . .
) . fill in the
) blanks. But, I had been utilizing techniques akin to those
) taught at RSC for
) a number of years.
Then your argument is that the Waldorf method, contrary to what its
exponents portray, does not have exclusive ownership of the techniques and
results it claims. Again, that does not detract from the defendants'
probable argument that they offer education to the children; in fact, your
comments reaffirm their argument.
) In other words, why attend classes offered
) by a religious
) sect, when similar but more suitable classes in similar
) techniques can be
) had less than 10 miles away at an accredited university?
Again, you are potentially reaffirming the argument. The training
is similar, just not "suitable" in your judgment.
)
) I think it would be wonderful if public school teacher
) training money was
) spent on accredited programs for developing professional pedagogical
) practices, sans any religious influence. Our public
) educational system is
) not supposed to give sway to any particular religious belief
) system, and
) this line is crossed when the pedagogy is based on a religious belief
) system, such as Anthroposophy.
Your comments lead me to believe that one of things you find most
objectionable is that RSC is economically benefitting, since you feel it is
a religious instituiton. Would you feel differently if there were a
state-funded, state-run program (i.e., no money to RSC) which offered
teacher instruction in the most secular aspects of the Waldorf pedagogy?
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1317.7 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: Summary Judgment Motion
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:27:41 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Scott Kendall, PLANS' attorney, was kind enough to mail me a copy of the
"Defendants' Memorandum of Points and Authorities in Support of Motion for
Summary Judgment or, In the Alternative, Summary Adjudication of Issues."
The date for hearing or submitting the motion appears to be June 4, 1999.
I haven't reviewed it yet, but I thought I'd give my listmates a heads-up.
There are five points to the legal argument:
A. Summary Judgment is Appropriate in This Case
B. Plaintiff Does Not Have Standing
C. The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment Has Not Been Violated
1. School Districts have broad discretion in the operation of their
schools
2. The Lemon Test
a. The operation of Waldorf Methods schools has a secular
purpose.
b. The use of Waldorf Methods does not have the primary
effect of advancing religion.
D. Defendants have not violated Cal. Const. Art. XVI, Section 5
E. Defendants have not violated Cal. Const. Art. IX, Section 8
The headings under point C seem to be similar to the opinions I've
been expressing in discussions with Kathy S., Steve P. and others here on
the list.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1317.8 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 04:36:04 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199905201340.GAA11297 lists1.best.com)
Robert Tolz says:
) Your comments lead me to believe that one of things you find most
)objectionable is that RSC is economically benefitting, since you feel it is
)a religious instituiton. Would you feel differently if there were a
)state-funded, state-run program (i.e., no money to RSC) which offered
)teacher instruction in the most secular aspects of the Waldorf pedagogy?
Michael KOPP:
As we have seen through innumerable quotes from Steiner himself, and his
cult members all down the years since his canonization, there IS *NO*
secular aspect to Waldorf pedagogy. There is nothing at all in anything
Steiner propounded, or is followers have practiced, which is not for a
religious (spiritualistic) reason. As the Waldorf people say, if you take
out the thing that makes Waldorf Waldorf (i.e., the religion of
Anthroposophy, Steiner's remanufactured middle-ages mumbo jumbo) IT AIN'T
WALDORF ANYMORE. I do hope that the PLANS court case will settle this hash
once and for all, so disingenuous Defenders of the Faith can stop trying to
deflect attention from the clearly religious nature of their enterprise by
such dissembling as above.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1317.9 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Summary Judgment Motion
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:08:46 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
In-Reply-To: (199905201624.JAA14501 lists1.best.com)
On 20 May 99, at 12:27, Tolz, Robert wrote:
) D. Defendants have not violated Cal. Const. Art. XVI, Section 5
Which reads:
Neither the Legislature, nor any county, city and county, township,
school district, or other municipal corporation, shall ever make an
appropriation, or pay from any public fund whatever, or grant
anything to or in aid of any religious sect, church, creed, or
sectarian purpose, or help to support or sustain any school,
college, university, hospital, or other institution controlled by any
religious creed, church, or sectarian denomination whatever; nor
shall any grant or donation of personal property or real estate ever
be made by the state, or any city, city and county, town, or other
municipal corporation for any religious creed, church, or sectarian
purpose whatever; provided, that nothing in this section shall
prevent the Legislature granting aid pursuant to Section 3 of Article
XVI.
) E. Defendants have not violated Cal. Const. Art. IX, Section 8
Which reads:
8. No public money shall ever be appropriated for the support of
any sectarian or denominational school, or any school not under
the exclusive control of the officers of the public schools; nor shall
any sectarian or denominational doctrine be taught, or instruction
thereon be permitted, directly or indirectly, in any of the common
schools of this State.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1317.10 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:28:18 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: (199905191615.JAA14486 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199905200724.AAA23966 lists1.best.com)
On 20 May 99, at 0:22, Dan Dugan wrote:
) We're not in a California court. It's a federal case.
Thanks. I didn't realize that.
That changes some things with respect to the precedential effect.
First, if the matter goes to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeal, any
decision will be binding on all federal courts in the Ninth Circuit,
which includes California and other states in the Western U.S. It
would not be binding on other federal courts unless it goes to the
U.S. Supreme Court.
Unless it goes to the Supreme Court, the decision is not binding in
California state courts, even as to matters of federal law. A
California trial court might find the opinion of the federal Court of
Appeal persuasive on a matter of federal law, but the state court is
not bound by the decision of any federal court except the U.S.
Supreme Court.
(Of course, if it is not appealed to the Ninth Circuit, it is not binding
on any other court.)
Now, the state constitutional claims may be stronger than the
federal claim, since Article XVI, section 5, of the California
Constitution is considerably more specific than the Establishment
Clause of the federal constitution. But a federal court decision on
the interpretation of the California Constitution is not binding on any
state court. That includes a decision of the U.S. Supreme Court.
In other words, a California trial court is free to ignore a decision of
the U.S. Supreme Court to the extent that the U.S. Supreme Court
is ruling on an issue of California law.
So this case, if appealed, could result in a binding precedent
regarding the constitutionality of a public Waldorf School with
respect to the federal constitution. It cannot, though, result in
precedent regarding the constitutionality of a public Waldorf school
with respect to the California Constitution which would be binding in
California state courts.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1317 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1318 --------------
001 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
002 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
003 - "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf pe - Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
004 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
005 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Summary Judgment Motion
006 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Benveniste to cooperate in homeopathy test
007 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
008 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
009 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
010 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Summary Judgment Motion
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1318.1 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:48:44 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Michael Kopp [mailto:mkopp xtra.co.nz]
) Sent: Thursday, May 20, 1999 12:36 PM
) To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
) Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
)
)
) Robert Tolz says:
)
) ) Your comments lead me to believe that one of things you
) find most
) )objectionable is that RSC is economically benefitting, since
) you feel it is
) )a religious instituiton. Would you feel differently if there were a
) )state-funded, state-run program (i.e., no money to RSC) which offered
) )teacher instruction in the most secular aspects of the
) Waldorf pedagogy?
)
) Michael KOPP:
)
) As we have seen through innumerable quotes from Steiner
) himself, and his
) cult members all down the years since his canonization, there IS *NO*
) secular aspect to Waldorf pedagogy. There is nothing at all
) in anything
) Steiner propounded, or is followers have practiced, which is not for a
) religious (spiritualistic) reason. As the Waldorf people say,
) if you take
) out the thing that makes Waldorf Waldorf (i.e., the religion of
) Anthroposophy, Steiner's remanufactured middle-ages mumbo
) jumbo) IT AIN'T
) WALDORF ANYMORE. I do hope that the PLANS court case will
) settle this hash
) once and for all, so disingenuous Defenders of the Faith can
) stop trying to
) deflect attention from the clearly religious nature of their
) enterprise by
) such dissembling as above.
)
)
) Cheers from Godzone,
)
) Michael Kopp
) Wellington, New Zealand
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1318.2 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:00:23 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Sorry folks for the entire repetition of Michael's comment in the
post I just sent. The "Send" button on Outlook is in the same position as
the "Reply" button. Click on reply once to get start replying, then if the
finger slips onto the mouse button to quickly, you've got an immediate send.
Anyhow...
[Michael Kopp]
)
) As we have seen through innumerable quotes from Steiner
) himself, and his
) cult members all down the years since his canonization, there IS *NO*
) secular aspect to Waldorf pedagogy. There is nothing at all
) in anything
) Steiner propounded, or is followers have practiced, which is not for a
) religious (spiritualistic) reason. As the Waldorf people say,
) if you take
) out the thing that makes Waldorf Waldorf (i.e., the religion of
) Anthroposophy, Steiner's remanufactured middle-ages mumbo
) jumbo) IT AIN'T
) WALDORF ANYMORE.
I'm sure many Waldorf supporters would vehemently agree with you.
There are others who don't.
There are non-anthroposophical, non-spiritual folks who like the
Waldorf method for what it is on its face, regardless of or in spite of
whatever mumbo-jumbo you may find in its underpinnings. These people are
defending the wide discretion that a school ordinarily has to implement
policies which on their face serve a secular purpose. This appears to be
one of the main contentions of the defendant school districts in the summary
judgment motion.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1318.3 ---------------
From: "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf peakpeak.com)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:41:19 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In communities where immunization is practiced routinely, most of the
benefit is derived from eliminating the vector of transmission. It is
virtually impossible for an individual, anthroposophist or otherwise to
contract small pox in England. But this benefit was derived from those many
individuals willing to accept some risk and get immunized. Immunization
must be a community effort if it is to succeed. Regardless of their
intentions, those who do not participate in a community immunization are
self centered, benefitting from the sacrifice of their community, and
giving none in return. I am frankly surprised that a spiritual movement so
absorbed in the concept of love should espouse the fundamentally non loving
and selfish viewpoint that refusing to participate in a community
immunization is the proper thing to do.
Alan S. Fine MD
-
)Your argument is flawed if your premise that non-immunisers are seeking
)the benefits is false. If the non-immunisers are seeking to forgo both
)the risks *and* the benefits (and I suggest that it is demonstrable that
)they are), your argument falls over. They are merely exercising one of
)the few freedoms remaining in an increasingly regulated society.
)
)
)Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
)Stephen
)
)--
)+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
)+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
)+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
)+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1318.4 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 01:13:29 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199905201340.GAA11297 lists1.best.com)
Robert Tolz, you wrote,
)Would you feel differently if there were a
)state-funded, state-run program (i.e., no money to RSC) which offered
)teacher instruction in the most secular aspects of the Waldorf pedagogy?
What are the secular aspects of Waldorf padagogy? Real qualities, not vague
generalizations like "developmentally appropriate." I'm sure there are
some, I'd like to hear your list.
If there were such a teacher training institution, what literature would it
draw on to support its curriculum?
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1318.5 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Summary Judgment Motion
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 01:28:23 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199905201624.JAA14501 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199905201710.KAA14949 lists1.best.com)
(California Constitution)
)8. No public money shall ever be appropriated for the support of
)any sectarian or denominational school, or any school not under
)the exclusive control of the officers of the public schools;
It seems to me that that last clause would rule out charter schools; how do
they get around that?
)nor shall
)any sectarian or denominational doctrine be taught, or instruction
)thereon be permitted, directly or indirectly, in any of the common
)schools of this State.
That's pretty damn clear. Any sectarian doctrine...directly or indirectly.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1318.6 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay pacbell.net)
Subject: Benveniste to cooperate in homeopathy test
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 02:22:02 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
-------------------------------------------------------------------
This message is excerpted from the SI Electronic Digest (e-list)
published biweekly by the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of
Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP.) Visit http://www.csicop.org/. --
Daniel
-------------------------------------------------------------------
HOMEOPATHY VIA E-MAIL?
A copper coil is wrapped around a bottle of homepathic solution.
Electromagnetic signals from the solution set up a current in the coil.
Current variations are digitized and transmitted to a second, distant
coil. Can signals from that coil turn pure water into a homeopathic
solution?
Leon Jaroff of TIME magazine covers the question in the May 17 issue.
According to the article, Physicist Robert Park of the American Physical
Society and Nobel prize winner Brian Josephson are close to agreeing on a
protocol for a double blind test of homeopathy over the Internet.
As TIME reports, Park and Josephson would test homeopathy proponent
Jacques Beneviste's latest claim "that the 'memory' of water in a
homeopathic solution has an electormagnetic 'signature.' This signature,
he says, can be captured by a copper coil, digitized and transmitted by
wire--or, for extra flourish, over the Internet--to a container of
ordinary water, converting it to a homepathic solution."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Daniel Sabsay, president "Ignorance is the ultimate renewable resource"
East Bay Skeptics Society http://www.eb-skeptics.org
mail eb-skeptics.org
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1318.7 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 05:53:05 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199905200300.UAA20149 lists1.best.com)
(199905200300.UAA20149 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199905200542.WAA02907 lists1.best.com)
Dear Stephen:
I have the new book but have inadvertently deleted your mailing address.
Could you please resend?
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1318.8 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 07:34:53 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199905200542.WAA02907 lists1.best.com)
(199905200300.UAA20149 lists1.best.com)
(199905200300.UAA20149 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199905210944.CAA02078 lists1.best.com)
)Dear Stephen:
)
)I have the new book but have inadvertently deleted your mailing address.
)Could you please resend?
)
)
)
)Robert Flannery
)New York
)litvas icu.com
Apologies to the list for private correspondence misrouted. It was meant
for Stephen Tonkin.
The error may be relevant--the book I'm referring to is the new Edelglass
title, available now from Parker Courtney Press: "Sensible Physics
Teaching", a class 6, 7, and 8 physics curriculum.
"This book guides middle school teachers through sense-based science
pedagogy in step-by-step fashion with a carefully developed sequence of
experiments, described in detail and easy to follow. Apparatus kits are
available from AWSNA for each class."
152 pages, $16.75
To order, send a check to
Parker Courtney Press
307 Hungry Hollow Road
Chestnut Ridge, NY 10977
Include $3.50 for one book, and $1 for each additional book for shipping.
Orders to NY state require sales tax. Parker Courtney accepts
Mastercard/Visa.
Inquiries: Information about phenomenological science, mathematics
instruction, model-making kits, and related topics can be obtained through
the Science and Mathematics Association for Research and Teaching by
writing to Parker Courtney Press at the above address.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1318.9 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: RSC Public School Teachers Training
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:23:04 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Dan Dugan [mailto:dan dandugan.com]
)
)
) Robert Tolz, you wrote,
)
) )Would you feel differently if there were a
) )state-funded, state-run program (i.e., no money to RSC) which offered
) )teacher instruction in the most secular aspects of the
) Waldorf pedagogy?
)
[Dan Dugan]
) What are the secular aspects of Waldorf padagogy? Real
) qualities, not vague
) generalizations like "developmentally appropriate." I'm sure there are
) some, I'd like to hear your list.
[Bob Tolz]
C'mon, Dan. You know the list without my help: Not pushing for
reading as quickly as other methods; teacher staying with children for more
than one year; heavy emphasis on art. I'm sure there are more which could
be listed.
[Dan Dugan]
)
) If there were such a teacher training institution, what
) literature would it
) draw on to support its curriculum?
)
[Bob Tolz]
I have no idea. That's for people qualified in public education to
determine.
My questions were posed to Kathy in order to understand the heart of
her arguments and objections against Waldorf in the public schools, not to
argue about whether or not it is *possible*.
I'll pose the same question to you to refocus this discussion,
because I think this is an important legal issue, one which I'm sure will be
sharply argued in the PLANS litigation.
Suppose (1) there are specific educational methods which a school
district determines to be advisable for the teaching of its children, and
(2) those educational methods just happen to be more or less consistent
(either by accident or design) with anthroposophically-based Waldorf
methods, and (3) all teacher instruction in these methods is provided not by
RSC but by the California State University system.
Assuming all the foregoing to be true, do you have an objection?
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1318.10 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Summary Judgment Motion
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 08:53:33 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199905201710.KAA14949 lists1.best.com)
(199905201624.JAA14501 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199905210840.BAA13492 lists1.best.com)
Steve Premo:
))nor shall
))any sectarian or denominational doctrine be taught, or instruction
))thereon be permitted, directly or indirectly, in any of the common
))schools of this State.
Dan Dugan:
)That's pretty damn clear. Any sectarian doctrine...directly or indirectly.
I hope the judge pays particular attention to the required texts for the
Waldorf teacher training program at RSC., presented as part of PLANS
opposition. Text books such as 'Occult Science', 'The Spiritual
Hierarches', 'Christianity as Mystical Fact', 'Education of the Child in
the Light of Spiritual Science', 'Manifestation of Karma', 'Reincarnation
and Karma' (and the list goes on...) just may sound an alarm.
Debra
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1318 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1319 --------------
001 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
002 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - Summarizing Summary Judgment (Long and a bit technical)
003 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
004 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Summary Judgment Motion
005 - "Duane Koons" (dkoons gun - Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
006 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - RE: Summary Judgment Motion
007 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: Benveniste to cooperate in homeopathy test
008 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Vaccination and GM foods (was: Anthroposophical Medicine )
009 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Summary Judgment Motion
010 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Vaccination and GM foods (was: Anthroposophical Medicine )
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1319.1 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:22:02 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
In-Reply-To: (199905202349.QAA18233 lists1.best.com)
On 20 May 99, at 17:41, Alan S. Fine MD wrote:
) I am frankly surprised that a spiritual movement so absorbed in the
) concept of love should espouse the fundamentally non loving and
) selfish viewpoint that refusing to participate in a community
) immunization is the proper thing to do.
"Selfish" and "unloving" are words that refer to a person's
motivation, not to their actions. If they don't agree that community
immunization is a good thing, their refusal to participate is not
unethical or selfish.
Suppose they believe (and I think this is close to the truth) that
immunization robs kids of the opportunity to get such diseases as
pertussis and measles, and that such diseases are good for the
child's development. Children who do not get such diseases are
likely to develop emotional and even physical problems later in life,
and much of the crime, depression, and dissatisfaction in our
modern society, as well as much of the heart disease, cancer, and
other "modern" diseases with which we are afflicted, are the result
of widespread immunization.
Someone with such a belief may be wrong, but that does not mean
they are selfish or unloving.
Plus, there are significant differences of opinion in the health field
as to which vaccines are worth the risks. In different countries,
different health professionals have set different standards.
I'm not up on all the issues, but if I'm not mistaken, there is some
question as to whether the chicken pox vaccine confers as good an
immunity as the disease. Since the disease is relatively benign,
and the consequences of contracting chicken pox during the early
stages of pregnancy are severe, it might make more sense to avoid
the vaccine in hopes that the girl will get the disease as a child,
rather than take the risk that the immunity will wear off in 20 or 30
years, before she gets pregnant. Someone who makes such a
choice is not unethical, selfish, or unloving in any way. It's merely
a difference of opinion.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1319.2 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: Summarizing Summary Judgment (Long and a bit technical)
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:29:55 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
The purpose of this post is to summarize the summary judgment
arguments made by the defendants in the PLANS case. I presume that this
subject matter is of more than passing interest to the readers of this list,
so I will take the liberty of providing a fairly lengthy and somewhat
technical description. I figure that if I can obtain enjoyment from
technical but popularized descriptions of quantum physics, others can obtain
similar enjoyment from scarfing up a somewhat technical, but I hope not
overbearingly technical, legal blow by blow in the PLANS case against public
Waldorf.
For the uninformed, PLANS has sued in Federal court to prohibit the
use of Waldorf methods in two California schools. Now, after time for
depositions and other discovery, but prior to trial, the defendant school
districts have filed a motion (a "summary judgment") motion, to have the
case kicked out of court. PLANS' attorney, Scott Kendall, was kind enough
to provide me a copy with the plaintiffs' written arguments.
I'll refrain from interjecting any editorial comments other than to
provide some assistance where a technical term might be too confusing for
non-lawyers. If and when I receive a copy of the plaintiff's responding
papers, I'll do the same. Where an argument is made in the text below, it
is not my argument -- it is the argument of the defendants' counsel; so
don't kill the messenger. I've faxed a copy of the document to Steve Premo,
so he's certainly welcome to chime in to correct anything I say.
Although the following may seem long, rest assured that it could
have been much longer.
Plaintiff does not seek damages but rather seeks only injunctive and
declaratory relief. As such, defendants claim that the court should only
consider the current program at each school for the 1998-1999 school year.
"Although Defendants vehemently deny any past violations of constitutional
law, what may or may not have happend in the past is not at issue."
Now, the facts.
In any case, the presentation of the facts is critical. There are a
number of assertions which the defendants make in their memorandum which are
labeled "Undisputed Facts." I do not know exactly how undisputed these are,
since I know that several of them might be disputed on this list. I would
not be the least surprised if PLANS' attorney's responsive papers make
different factual allegations.
In any event, here are some of the "Undisputed Facts" which I
thought were most critical to what the defendants are trying to argue in
their memorandum:
* In Waldorf education the arts are integrated into all subjects,
even math and science, as a way of creatively teaching children the
substantive concepts.
* In selecting Waldorf methods as its focus, the Oak Ridge school
(now known as John Morse) wanted to further the district's desegregation
palan, provide an innovative learning environment for its students, promote
creativity, improve reading skills, and provide a caring environment for the
students.
* When Rudolf Steiner College created the teacher training program
for the John Morse teachers in 1994, they carefully and intentionally
excluded all topics of a spiritual, religious, or Anthroposophical nature
knowing that the training had to be completely secular to be acceptable for
public school teachers. The purpose of the training program is to train
public school teachers in the use of Waldorf methods in delivering their
curriculum to public school children.
* The John Morse teachers did not receive instruction in
Anthroposophy from Rudolf Steiner College. Anthroposophy is not a part of
the curriculum at John Morse, nor is it taught to students at John Morse.
* Plaintiff is not familiar with the current curriculum at John
Morse. Plaintiff has never visited John Morse. Plaintiff has not observed
classroom instruction at John Morse. Plaintiff has not spoken with parents
of students at John Morse. Plaintiff has not spoken with the teachers at
John Morse.
* Twin Ridges (now known as Yuba River Charter School) uses Waldorf
methods because the district believed that a school using Waldorf methods
would fulfill the goals of providing area residents with an alternative form
of education which was both innovative and academically challenging.
* Anthroposophy is not a part of the curriculum at Yuba River nor
is it taught to students.
* Debra Snell, president of PLANS, had two children enrolled at
Twin Ridges (the predecessor to Yuba River). Her children left that school
in 1996. Ms. Snell has not spoken with any teachers, observed any classroom
instruction, nor seen the curriculum of the Yuba River school.
* Plaintiff is not familiar with the current curriculum at Yuba
River, has not visited the school, has not observed classroom instruction
and has not spoken with teachers at Yuba River.
A. The "standing" issue.
Defendants indicate that "[p]laintiff's only basis for standing is
the taxpayer status of its members."
The term "standing" refers to the right of a litigant to come into
court and have a grievance heard. For instance, one of the more famous
Supreme Court musings about standing came when the late Justice William
Douglas gave serious consideration to whether a tree ought to have standing
regarding issues of environmental impact.
Although a failure of a plaintiff to have standing does not reach
the merits of an issue, it is just as fatal to the plaintiff's case as a
loss on the merits, except that someone who does meet the requirements for
standing could later bring a similar case.
Defendants argue that the plaintiff has failed to allege or
demonstrate the significant requirements for standing as a state taxpayer,
notably that the complained-of behavior caused an economic harm to the
school budget and that there was economic harm to the plaintiff. Defendants
argue that "in order to have standing plaintiff must allege facts sufficient
to establish that one or more of its members has suffered, or is threatened
with, an injury other than their belief that the programs violate the
Constitution."
B. The Federal Constitutional issues.
The following will liberally quote from the defendants' memorandum
in support of the summary judgment motion. I'm not going to use quotation
marks, but understand that the entire argument (regardless of whether or not
I agree) is the defendants' argument, not mine.
Point one under this heading is that local school boards have broad
discretion in the management of schools. Judicial supervision of public
education is limited to the resolutions of conflicts that clearly involve
constitutional issues.
Both school districts made the informed decision to adopt Waldorf
methods as their curriculum based upon important secular reasons: the needs
of their students. These decisions should not be usurped by the court when
the Establishment Clause has not been violated.
In order to make out a case for a violation of the Establishment
Clause, the Supreme Court case of Lemon v. Kurtzman holds that plaintiff
must allege facts showing that the use of Waldorf methods (1) has no secular
purpose, (2) that its primary effect advances religion and (3) that the
activity fosters an excessive government entanglement with religion.
As to part (1) of the test, the operation of a Waldorf methods
school has a secular purpose. Though plaintiff's complaint alleges that the
primary purpose of said operation is to advance religion, it pleads no facts
supporting this allegation. The Supreme Court has invalidated governmental
action on the ground that a secular purpose was lacking *only* when it has
concluded that there was no question that the statute or activity was
*motivated wholly* by religious considerations. The legal test is whether
the government's actual purpose is to endorse or disapprove of religion.
Here, no such religious purpose exists. There is no question that each
district adopted the Waldorf methods program as their curriculum for the
entirely non-religious (i.e. secular) purpose of educating the children in a
creative and alternative manner. The purpose of the Waldorf methods in
these schools is not to endorse a religion, but simply to educate the
children. Any religious references are trivial.
As to part (2) of the test.... Assuming for purposes of this
argument only, that Anthroposophy is a religion, plaintiff must prove that
the districts' use of Waldorf methods has the "primary" effect of advancing
the religion of Anthroposophy. The relevant inquiry is whether the
government's action actually conveys a message of endorsement of religion in
general or of a particular religion. The proper analysis is whether an
objective observer in the position of an elementary school student would
perceive a message of endorsement of Anthroposophy in the use of Waldorf
methods. This analysis permits, for example, the study of the Protestant
Reformation and Greek mythology, because their study does not promote or
advance them.
Here, the children are not taught Anthroposophy nor is it even
mentioned in any part of the curriculum. Plaintiff has not offered any
evidence to the contrary. Plaintiff has no evidence at all about what is
being taught at the schools at issue. As such, its case rests solely on
speculation and conjecture.
Thus it would be illogical that an objective observer in the
position of an elementary student would perceive a message of endorsement of
Anthroposophy in the use of Waldorf methods.
Plaintiff cannot prove either of the first two prongs of the Lemon
test and plaintiff has made no allegations regarding the third prong.
Therefore, it cannot prove a violation of the Establishment Clause.
C. California Constitutional Issues
The defendants memo on these points is very brief, no pun intended.
With Steve Premo being a California lawyer, I'll leave it to him to make
comments here if he so desires.
That's it for me. My fingers need a rest.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1319.3 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:29:04 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199905202349.QAA18233 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199905211622.JAA22828 mail.cruzio.com)
On 21 May 99, at 9:22, I wrote:
) Suppose they believe (and I think this is close to the truth) that
) immunization robs kids of the opportunity to get such diseases as
) pertussis and measles . . .
Just to clarify, I mean that I think that many Anthroposophists
actually do believe something like that about immunization. I don't
mean that I agree with that belief!
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1319.4 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Summary Judgment Motion
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:36:16 -0400
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charset="iso-8859-1"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Dan Dugan [mailto:dan dandugan.com]
) (California Constitution)
) )8. No public money shall ever be appropriated for the support of
) )any sectarian or denominational school, or any school not under
) )the exclusive control of the officers of the public schools;
)
) It seems to me that that last clause would rule out charter
) schools; how do
) they get around that?
)
) )nor shall
) )any sectarian or denominational doctrine be taught, or instruction
) )thereon be permitted, directly or indirectly, in any of the common
) )schools of this State.
)
) That's pretty damn clear. Any sectarian doctrine...directly
) or indirectly.
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
As I've mentioned in another post, Steve Premo is much more
qualified than I to speak to the California issues. But:
) That's pretty damn clear. Any sectarian doctrine...directly
) or indirectly.
Things are never as clear as they sometimes seem, particularly in
legal issues. In fact, whenever I read or hear an attorney arguing to a
judge that something is perfectly clear, my antennae perk up (and I betcha
Steve Premo's antennae act in exactly the same way), because those words are
an indication that the attorney is not so sure that the logic and facts are
sufficient to carry the arguments and that an additional amount of
bull-****-dozing is required. There is absolutely no additional weight
which can be given to an argument simply because some lawyer expresses the
opinion that what he believes is perfectly clear. Heck, it *couldn't* be
perfectly clear, or otherwise there wouldn't be an argument being made on
the other side.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1319.5 ---------------
From: "Duane Koons" (dkoons gundluth.org)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical Medicine
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:16:09 -0500
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Steve I believe you are correct in describing a commonly held
anthroposophical rational opposing immunization. Many parents drawn to WE
already have fears about immunizations and the anthroposophical view is
therefore deemed tolerable. Yet I don't see them actively seeking out
disease experiences for their children's benefit (other than perhaps
chicken pox). I do agree with Dr. Fine's general premise that
anti-immunization adherents are taking a free ride and benefiting from herd
immunity. These same parents would likely have been first in line when the
vaccines for polio came out as they would perceive the risk benefit ratio
differently when living in an era where parents lived in fear that a
seemingly innocuous fever in there child could develop weeks later into a
life threatening and permanently altering disease.
As a physician I find it peculiar the need to romanticize illness related
suffering. I'm sure the parent and child are permanently and profoundly
altered by the experience of a life-threatening infectious illness such as
Haemophillus influenza meningitis. I held several of these children in my
arms as a resident in the mid 1980s. Those parents would surely say they
would rather have avoided the experience altogether. Fortunately the rate
of invasive H. Flu infections has dropped more than 95% since the
widespread use of the vaccine in the late 1980s. I seriously question the
wisdom of parents who have some romantic notion that these types of illness
are good for the child. It goes to show haw easy life has become.
Speaking of misinterpretations of statistical reality, most parents who
oppose immunizations do not have children in waldorf schools and may not
have even heard of them. I know the critics like to hold waldorf schools
accountable for much of the nonsense in the world today but I think in this
situation its a larger problem
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1319.6 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: RE: Summary Judgment Motion
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:10:36 -0700
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On 21 May 99, at 12:36, Tolz, Robert wrote:
) ) From: Dan Dugan [mailto:dan dandugan.com]
)
) ) That's pretty damn clear. Any sectarian doctrine...directly
) ) or indirectly.
)
) Things are never as clear as they sometimes seem, particularly in
) legal issues. In fact, whenever I read or hear an attorney arguing to a
) judge that something is perfectly clear, my antennae perk up (and I betcha
) Steve Premo's antennae act in exactly the same way) . . .
Heck, not only do my antennae perk up, but sometimes I laugh out
loud!
Just the other day I was reviewing a motion on a matter of first
impression, i.e., an issue for which there is no legal precedent.
One of the attorneys was accusing the other of boldly asking the
court to make new law. He neglected to mention, though, that the
court would be making new law either way, since it's a matter of
first impression! It was funny to me, not only because of the
silliness of his argument, but also because of the vehemence with
which it was presented.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1319.7 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Benveniste to cooperate in homeopathy test
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 18:25:02 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: (199905210920.CAA25493 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199905210920.CAA25493 lists1.best.com)
Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay pacbell.net) wrote:
)As TIME reports, Park and Josephson would test homeopathy proponent
)Jacques Beneviste's latest claim "that the 'memory' of water in a
)homeopathic solution has an electormagnetic 'signature.' This signature,
)he says, can be captured by a copper coil, digitized and transmitted by
)wire--or, for extra flourish, over the Internet--to a container of
)ordinary water, converting it to a homepathic solution."
One question, Daniel: How will they test the solutions to determine
whether or not they are homoeopathic solutions?
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
--
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+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1319.8 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Vaccination and GM foods (was: Anthroposophical Medicine )
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 18:33:24 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: (199905202349.QAA18233 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199905202349.QAA18233 lists1.best.com)
Alan S. Fine MD (asf peakpeak.com) wrote:
)In communities where immunization is practiced routinely, most of the
)benefit is derived from eliminating the vector of transmission. It is
)virtually impossible for an individual, anthroposophist or otherwise to
)contract small pox in England.
Smallpox vaccination has been unusual in its efficacy. Measles
vaccination, for example, is much less effective, failing to confer
immunity to somewhere between 5% and 15% (depending on who you read) of
recipients. Even taking the lower figure, it is not clear that
vaccination of 100% of the population would confer herd immunity or that
the disease would be eradicated.
I also find it interesting that you, as a doctor, have fallen for the
government newspeak by using "immunization" when you mean "vaccination"
-- what a patient receives is not immunisation but vaccination; it is
not a given that immunisation results from vaccination. As I am sure you
know, the first measles vaccines conferred no immunity at all, although
their use did correlate with a decline in incidence of the disease.
Note that I am not stating that vaccination does not confer benefits to
many people, but I suggest that the case is overstated.
) But this benefit was derived from those many
)individuals willing to accept some risk and get immunized. Immunization
)must be a community effort if it is to succeed.
See above.
) Regardless of their
)intentions, those who do